Ep. 109: Backcountry Mule Deer Hunting with Tom Schneider

Finding mature mule deer can be a huge challenge to say the least. This week Dirk picks mule deer hunting expert Tom Schneider from "Stuck N The Rut" on finding and hunting big mule deer.

Check out Tom's Mule Deer Masterclass here: https://www.stuckntherutmuledeermasterclass.com/md

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:13):
All right, we're back with another episode of Cutting the
Distance podcast. This week, my guest is Tom Schneider. You
probably remember Tom from our Wolf episode earlier on, and
then we did a couple of episodes of rifle hunting
tactics which were wildly popular and much appreciated from our listeners.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
Tom.

Speaker 1 (00:34):
If you don't know, if you haven't listened to those Tom,
And if you don't know who Tom is, he's probably
one of the best all around hunters that I know.
You put this guy in the woods chasing elk with
a bow. You put him in the woods chasing elk
with a rifle, mule the air with a rifle, white
tails with a rifle, a bow.

Speaker 2 (00:53):
You name it.

Speaker 1 (00:54):
Tom and his family can They're very accomplished hunters. So
welcome again to the show. I'm glad to have you on.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
Thanks again for having me.

Speaker 1 (01:04):
I appreciate it absolutely. So how was your fall this year?
We haven't talked. I know, I feel like you've been busy.

Speaker 2 (01:10):
I kind of fall.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
We I watch on social and you're like, you go
from working like a madman to being hunting like a madman,
and it's like, I don't know, you probably haven't hardly
had a breath to breathe. How's your fall been?

Speaker 3 (01:24):
Oh, just like you pretty much summed it up and
that one sentence, working and hunting. And I took on
more work than I should have this hunting season. So
so anytime I am home, it's like, oh, should it
be time spend with the wife and kids or going
back to full on, you know, long days working in
the woods. So but no, it's it's it's always trying

(01:47):
to find that balance. It was. It's been a good fall. Yeah,
I started in Alaska. I did a moose on Alaska.
It's been a long time since I hunted moose, and man,
I stayed way longer than I should have.

Speaker 1 (02:02):
Yeah, well, I was like, I was seeing pictures in Alaska,
and then I seen more.

Speaker 2 (02:09):
I'm like, is he still up there hunting? Like, what
the heck? RD, He's gone a long time up there.

Speaker 3 (02:14):
That's a lot what a lot of people were saying too.
And I had some friends at home we were talking
about wolf hunting, Like, I got some friends at home, like, hey,
I got a good lead on a wolfpack. I'm like,
I can't go, but I'm like I'll be home soon
a week or two goes by and they're like, hey,
are you back yet. I'm like, no, I'm still in Alaska.
You're like, you're still in Alaska. Oh man, Yeah, it

(02:35):
was interesting, but yeah, I'd say so. I left to
Alaska September fifth, and I got back the twenty eight.

Speaker 1 (02:43):
Holy cow, Wow, that's a that's a long time. That's
an amazing trip.

Speaker 3 (02:49):
Oh yeah. Well, the moose just whipped our butt, you know.
And I felt like, so the hunts I've done in
the past with moose, and this was before my brother
in law's sister Ever moved to Alaska, you know, Chavis
Sny used to just do DIY hunts, and you know,
I felt like finding the moose was never the problem,
Like it was just the hardest part was packing them out.

Speaker 2 (03:09):
Oh yeah.

Speaker 3 (03:10):
And this was one of those hunts where I'm like,
it really humbled me on moose hunting because I felt
like it was always more of work than it was hunting.
And we did a lot of hunting and trying to
find a moose to kill, and it was just I
think a lot of hunters, you know, have this experience
of being just in the wrong spot at the wrong time,

(03:33):
over and over and over and over again, and we
just it was just yeah and so, but I try
to shorten my story up the last day of moose season,
I wanted to moose with the boat, but I said,
screw the boat at staying at camp. I'm sorry, hoyit,

(03:55):
but yeah, I left the boy at camp and and
some like the rifles in the hand, you know, and
we could even get we were even having a hard
time getting a moose in in lot, you know, within
six hundred yards. I was like, how do respects expect
to get one with a bow if we can't even
get them that close, you know. And I say the
biggest struggle we were fighting the area we were hunting.

(04:15):
Without giving too much detail, there just wasn't really good
elevation where you can sit up in glass these moose.
You're kind of hunting these bottoms. You got a lot
of alders, and so your visibility is very slim. And
I don't feel there like there wasn't one time, right say,
like we were in a good spot where we could glass.
There was a lot of moose activity, they just you

(04:36):
couldn't glass them up. And then when when the sun
rise and everything would bed down and just everything went quiet,
you know, and you'd sit there and you know, hike
the mountain and grunt, and you know, Adam is a
really good hunter. I'm a really good hunter. But I
also feel like, you know, you get two guys that
have different opinions on how to hunt, and you know,

(04:59):
I left a lot of it to Adam, but there
was times where I'm like, you see me, I'm kind
of the skinny guy that always wants to hike. And
I know glassing is important too, but I'm like, especially
when there's not a lot of visibility, I'm like, Adam,
I think we should just hike, you know, right, And
he's like, if we just sit here, because it is
the rut, He's like, well, if we just sit here,
we'll see moose passing through. And I'm like, okay, you know.

(05:23):
And after a couple of days of that, I'm just like,
I think we should start doing more moving around, hiking
a lot more and stuff. And it seemed like either
way nothing was working.

Speaker 2 (05:37):
It's frustrated.

Speaker 3 (05:39):
So we're just like, hiking's not working, and trying to
locatable not hikings not and it was just right. But
the last day last it was the last day of season,
you know, we saw a meadow and it was just
moose right activity, like crazy, but we were I'd say
we were probably at thirteen hundred yards. But as soon
as you start closing the distance, cutting that distance to

(06:04):
about you know, to even just long range rifle range
between eight hundred and six hundred yards, you couldn't see
them anymore. And so you couldn't tell where they'd even
bet down, you know, because there was a lot of metal.
There was small small amount of meadows, but a lot
of alders, and so when they bet down, you're like,
I have no clue where they betted, and so because
they can move another one hundred to two hundred yards

(06:25):
into this to the alders and disappear. But anyways, kind
of the plan was, because you know, sun Rose, it
was a warmer day, they all bet it down. I
was like, I know, Adam, this sounds like a crazy idea,
but I think we need to do is just do it.
It's a huge loop around, walking through bog, walking through
a lot of masts, but to keep our wind in

(06:45):
our favor, and I think just waiting that meadow about
right in the evening, when all the moose had come
back to feed and do there's you know, the cow
mooster feeding, but the bulls are rutting like crazy. But
just wait for that last last hour before dark. It's
a long ways out from our camp, but I think

(07:07):
if we wait there, then I think that last hour
before dark, I think we should just grunt the heck
out of that, you know. And that's what we did,
you know, like I said, Morning wrote the sun rose
moose all betted down, pretty much everything was shot for
the day there, and so we're like, well, let's just
well take naps, trike lasting do what we can. And

(07:32):
I kid you, nod. It was so on the last
it was the last two hours before dark. We got up.
We're like, let's move. Let's just every single meadow we
know of, let's go to it and grunt and see
if we can get something to talk. And we got
a bowl of talk, grunting hard. And so we worked
and worked and worked him. Adam worked him at him
has a lot of experience calling moose and he's great

(07:52):
at it. And he called that moose in the sixty
yards and I blasted with the rifle. Holy smokes, and
I was like, and then when I walked up to
the dead moose. I looked at the sun. It's the
last day of moose season. The sun is touching the mountains. Oh,
it is literally the last day, last out. And I
just like, I said, I couldn't be more humbled in

(08:15):
a situation like that, because I always looked at moose
as a stupid, dumb animal U And I'm like, I
had a lot of respect for them. They outsmarted us
multiple different times, you know, and I was just like, man,
I can't believe the moose are doing this to us.
And Adam even said, he's like, this is the hardest
I've ever had to work for a moose, like just

(08:36):
to get a moose shot. And I'm like, I promise, Adam,
I'm not a rookie. It seemed easier in the past.
But but then yeah, then after that, then Tana, you know,
because Adam when he was helping me, Tanna has to
watch the kids, and Tanna wants to break from the kids,
and she's like, I want a cariboo. So I'm like, well,

(08:57):
I better stay for another week or so for and
so I stayed with Tana just and so Adam watched
the kids and a lot of bears over there and
we helped her, but we did help her get a cariboo.
And we kind of had a situation though where it
was the So it was the days that she shot

(09:18):
her cariboo, we saw him, we she wanted to get
it with the bow. We belly crawled for several hours
to get in Archie range, and we had a little
like there's in this particular area where the caribou where
it's just flat tundra, there's nowhere to hide. But this
one group finally decided to bed right next to an

(09:39):
older patch. We're like, let's belly crawl to that older patch,
and as soon as we get to the older patch,
we can get up, get up on our knees, get
as close as you need to to the caribou, get
your arrow, and shoot that bowl. And because Tana was
really selective with cariboo, so there was a lot of
that we could have killed. But she's like it doesn't
have a bez on this side, or doesn't have a show.

(10:00):
I'm like, ken, I'd be sticking that bowl all day
with her.

Speaker 2 (10:05):
She's a bit of a caribou snob.

Speaker 3 (10:07):
She's a caribou snob, which is not a bad thing.
I think I'm a meal there snob. She's a caribou snob.
We all have, we all have our things. And well, anyways,
she was. It was a big bull. And it was
kind of cool because we're hunting the rut and you're
just kind of seeing the rut take place with with caribou,
which is really cool, you know. So we're seeing new
bulls moving the herds, pushing new balls out. It's just

(10:29):
like hunting elk. It was really cool to watch. And
they have these beautiful white manes and well, anyway, so
they were bedded and we were so we had to
belly crawl on another thirty yards, you know, and every
every yard do we move, it would take five minutes
or so, you know, so it was moving really slow,
but you're but those cows were they're on alert, and

(10:53):
they were like on a little just on a little knoll,
just enough to where they had some pretty good eyes,
you know. And I'm like, and every time we'd move
a couple of yards, they'd look our way. We'd stop
and they'd look away, and I'm like, we will make
this work. As soon as we get to the elders,
we're in the clear. The caribou just all got up
and just started to run. We're like what and right

(11:14):
beside us, we had no clue. Was there a grizzly
runs right past us as we were laying flat in
the tundra and is chasing the caribou that we have
that we have spent so many hours in belly crawling.
And d was just like, give me the gun I
want at this point, just give me a gun. I'll

(11:36):
shoot the caribou with the gun. And that I said,
are you sure like I did the hole? Are you
sure you don't want to do it the bout? She's like, Tom,
don't question me, give me the gun. Okay, the gun.
There you go, And and she got up and shot
the caribou. And then then we're like, oh, shoot, now
we have a cariboo that's dead. We have a bear

(11:57):
still chasing caribou, trying to get a dead Caribooh so
so now we have our heads on a squibble as
we're skinning out. But our savior came. Tanna sent an
inReach message to Adam's come get us, and he came
and landed pretty close to the cariboo, so we were
able to debone it right then and there Oh no, that. No,

(12:22):
we didn't debone. That one. We kept the bones in
because yeah, we got the got the plane right there,
so that was nice and yeah that makes an easy
pack when you have a plane that you can land
next to, you know. But yeah, no, So that then
I finally got back home and unfortunately I missed elk season,

(12:42):
so I know, but but I haven't had it moose
in a long time. So I'm like, you know, it's
a sacrifice. But I'd say the mistake I made was
I purchased the archery tag and I should have got
the rifle tag, so because now I'm stuck with the
archery tag, right, oh yeah, so I'm like, well, shoot,

(13:02):
I should have got the rifle tag, but I ended
up having you know, I'm like, I had to catch
up with work anyways in October, so I'm like, I
didn't really think I had much time to huntoke with
a rifle anyway. So that was pretty much the sacrifice. Well,
if I hunt moose this year, I'm not hunting elk.
And so I got my moose and I'm super happy.
He's a big bull.

Speaker 2 (13:22):
So yeah, that's awesome. Did you film any of this stuff?

Speaker 3 (13:26):
Yeah, so it was all on film, the moose and
the caribou, and then well, then I had to go
to Alaska to back up. I had to go to
Alaska early because Adam had a big bowl down. He
killed it solo, he worked it up solo. But he's
just like it's a long hike in and he needs help.
And so he's like, Tom, can you come to Alaska
a little bit earlier than your planet too? So I

(13:47):
had to do overnight flights to get to Alaska and
help out him finish packing his So as soon as
I stepped foot in Alaska with my crocs, I was
immediately thrown in the bush plane. We were backing moose quarters.
Oh man, and I literally, yeah, the kid you not
went from yeah, Idaho? Yeah, so that was it that well,

(14:09):
I think that was September fourth or something. I don't
even remember at this point, but yeah, by the time
I made it to Alaska, I mean here it was.
We packed out two rears that night as soon as
I arrived, and so and then we finished finished packing
out the rest the next day, which we were glad
to do because we're like, we have the household. There's
a big storm coming and yeah, I think that sums

(14:30):
up Alaska though.

Speaker 1 (14:31):
Man sounds like, yeah, it sounds like a pretty good
trade off. I mean, I love l cutting, but man,
that that would be a fun, fun trade off.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Oh yeah, And the antlers of Moose are just so
unique and cool, you know. And one thing I love
with Alaska it's still like I still considered as the
last frontier where you can get away from people still,
you know, like, and it's getting harder, of course, I
feel like more and more people are discovering it. But
I feel comparative to the Lower forty eight, you can

(15:02):
you can get in the no Man's Land and and
it and it's it's nice. It's just there's a different
spirit to it, you know what I mean. So it's
but yeah, no, I'm back now in the lower forty eight.

Speaker 1 (15:16):
Yeah, well hunting pressure, Yeah, back to normal life, right.

Speaker 2 (15:20):
Yeah. So I hear a bunch of background noise. Where
are you at?

Speaker 3 (15:26):
So this is a funny sit. Well, I've not given
too much detail my unit. I set up a base
camp kind of in the valley next to the town,
and and so that's why you might hear a little
bit of background sound. There is a highway behind me.
But but I thought was really nice. I was like,
this saves a lot of money from spending on a

(15:47):
motel or hotel, which just I just I did as
I paid for a camp spot and I have power
and running water. Oh sweet, So I have a power
with a with a big heater right here. It gets
really cold that night. It's been in freeze temperatures at night.
And yeah, I'm toasty in here, and so and from here,
I'm kind of like to where I can get to

(16:08):
my areas pretty quick, you know. And then I what
I did. Well, I guess people can't out necessarily, They're
not necessarily have a video to watch. But uh, I
packed a smaller tent to if I have an area
where I really want a camp back there, I have
a smaller tent that I can I can pack on
my back, you know, and go farther back. But this
is kind of like my base camp. This is like

(16:30):
this is where most my stuff is. Okay, and you're
hunting mule there and I'm going after mual there.

Speaker 1 (16:36):
Yes, yeah, tomorrow is the first day for your tag.

Speaker 3 (16:40):
I'm finally starting to feel it, like it's starting to
creep up on me. You know, I've got the what
do you call it? The butter butterflies. I got the
butterflies today, just like I did it. I got here
a couple of days early to scout. But when I
when I mean scout, it was there's more for I
wanted to see where my access points were. I want

(17:01):
to see where I can get my pickup at. I
spend a lot of time E scouting. I mean, I've
been working a lot lately to prepare for this hunt
and to get all my projects caught up. But every
evening I've been on the computer E scouting, and I
have I have three main trail systems that I'm like,

(17:23):
one of these trail systems is gonna pull. Is going
to help me get a buck? I know it is,
you know. So that's and and I felt like I've
accomplished my first mission, which was being able to get
my pickup to all those sites because I've I know
one thing I know about Colorado. There's a lot of these,
uh these road systems. They look great from the scouting,

(17:44):
and I don't care the clarity of the scouting. You
know of Google Earth and Onyx or whatever you guys
like to use. You get there and you're like, holy crap.
I actually can't get a pick up up this road.

Speaker 1 (17:55):
It's so bad, right right, Well, New Mexico's a lot
like that too. It's like, oh, yeah, there's a road
here and it's open, and you get there and it's
like washed out eighty seven times. You know, you have
to have a side by side to do all the
little crossings and stuff.

Speaker 3 (18:09):
So yeah, and and me being sol in as far
as I had to drive, I'm like, I didn't want
to drive a four wheeler down here. But now I'm like, kick,
there's a part of me that's slightly kicking myself, but
I'm I'm not because I did find a way to
get to all the trail systems comfortably with my vehicle,
So I'm like that is a plus. There was one kid,

(18:29):
you know, I was like, oh, I wanted to get
to that trail so aboud, I'm like, it's just not
doable with a pickup, And I just did a little
more ea scouting. I found another way in. So I
was like sweet. I was like, because that was a
spot I really wanted to go, but but I found
some Like we were talking, well, we kind of just

(18:50):
talked a little bit about you know, with the scouting
and stuff. And the one thing I really do is
I'm I'm trying to get far away from people as
I can. That's like my first step.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
Okay, I was gonna ask you, like, when you're going
out of state or into an area you're unfamiliar with,
what are you looking for? Like, Okay, I'm gonna go mule.
You're hunting, So you're like, Okay, how how do I
get away from the masses. Yeah, we'll find a place
like that, like get away into a roadless area, I'm assuming,
and then and then go from there.

Speaker 3 (19:21):
Yeah, So that's pretty much it. So that that was
the first thing I saw, is like, there's a lot
of this unit where and what's great with this unit
there's a lot of deer, which is which makes me
excited just because there's good numbers here. Quality I don't know,
but I did just yesterday, just driving around, I saw
a dozen bucks, which is I'm not I'm not used

(19:42):
to that. Oh I used to. I'm used to hunting
areas where there's very little numbers of mule there and
you're putting on a lot of miles on the ground
just to see a couple bucks. You know what? I
mean and and so to be able to hunt a
unit like this is kind of cool. But the only
thing that slightly concerned me is I talk to a
lot of guys that have hunted this in the past

(20:03):
and are like, the quality is just not here though,
you know, that's what a lot of them say, But
I've also take that in my mind. I'm just kind
of I'm just trying to make you put you in
my own mind and how I how it works. But
for me, I'm like, well, are they going far enough

(20:23):
back to the big bucks? Are they getting away from
the hunting pressure to find the big bucks? And so
for me when they when people are telling me, oh,
expect between one hundred and thirty one hundred inch or
one hundred and sixty inch class muleies, I'm like, I'm
not I'm not going to go buy that right now.
I'm just like, I'm just going to pretend I didn't

(20:44):
hear that. I'm going to go after one eighty right
And then every day a couple of inches will drop,
so it's like, okay, So so first day season one
eighty inch buck, second day season a one seventy eight
inch buck. Maybe the last day season, maybe it is

(21:10):
a one sixty.

Speaker 1 (21:11):
Oh yeah, yeah, I kind of do that with ELK two.
And this year was a tough year. So you know,
first day it's like, oh yeah, nothing but a nice
six point.

Speaker 2 (21:23):
By the second day.

Speaker 1 (21:26):
The spike walks out and well, sorry, dude, bam, you're done.

Speaker 3 (21:32):
He walked out on the wrong day.

Speaker 2 (21:33):
Yeah he did, he did.

Speaker 1 (21:34):
It was a bad day for him and a really
good day for me. But sow, No, when you say
you're getting far back, are you like one mile, two mile,
eight miles? Are you like or whatever? You know, it
takes like, okay, you know, average people are good. Let's
say they're going a mile or two. Then you're like, well,
I'm gonna go deeper.

Speaker 3 (22:04):
So let's just say this. So so my first the
first spot in my mind, I'm gonna, well, i have
all this energy built up and I've been driving. I'm
gonna go to the hardest spot first. And there's this.
It is a good plan, right, And then when I'm
and I and me, when I'm getting older now, I
used to hit just hard every day, really long miles,
and now I'll do every other day where I'll go

(22:26):
one really hard day and one lighter day, one really
hard day, one lighter day, and so tomorrow is going
to be a really hard day mapping it. It looks
like it's seven and a half miles back. Uh so.
But but what I like is, you know, there's not
a lot of elevation gain. But I'm just gonna get

(22:49):
up early in the morning. Like I said, I have
a lot of energy built up. I had the past
couple of days to sleep in. I got a lot
of sleep. So I'm just going to get up really early.
And there's a big, beautiful place where I can glass
from good eyes on on deer. And you know, in
my mind when I when I looked at that spot
on the map, like it just it just you know,
we all have those spots like with you elk hunting

(23:11):
or it's just like, man, that area just looks elky,
Like that spot of the mountain just looks like if
I was a big monster meal there, I'd be right
there in that opening, you know, away from all the
hunting pressure. But the bounce side is there's a lot
of horses back there, and so I made the initiative
of getting in contact with them and asking them, what

(23:32):
hunters are you packing back there? Am I is it
if I go back there, is it just going to
be am I going to be just you know, walking
on top of people? And the response I got was
actually good, and so that the outfitter told me, Hey, no,
we just do a bunch of drop camps and they're
just they're just elk hunters. So You're honestly going to

(23:52):
be the only meal there hunter back there.

Speaker 2 (23:53):
Oh wow.

Speaker 3 (23:54):
So I'm like sweet and they're like, you're not going
to interfere with us. Do what you're going to do
a big buck And so I'm like, all right, sounds
like a plan. And they even said, you know, I like,
I said, this is a unit I've never even hunted before,
and but they told me there's big bucks back there.
So I'm like that even that even clarifies my mind

(24:14):
of that spot even more. And so it is my
day one spot. So that's what I'm going to do tomorrow.
But yeah, no, I I like to get away from people.
You know. I know a lot of people like to
call and find people with advice, and I do that too,
but it's like the one thing that always goes through
my mind is if somebody else knows about the spot,

(24:37):
then who else knows about the spot too, right, and
you know big bucks are going to get big by
avoiding hunting pressure for long periods of time. And so
those are the places I want to find, right. Yeah,
it could be hard in Colorado.

Speaker 2 (24:54):
Yeah, very hard.

Speaker 1 (24:54):
It's it's a popular place for people to go, and
you know, and and maybe people before you get there,
you know, people shoot the deer or you know, in
the last few years, they just don't have an age
class in the place you want to go, like, you know,
they just don't grow old enough.

Speaker 2 (25:11):
So yeah, I get it.

Speaker 1 (25:11):
You're trying to find those places where the deer can
be undisturbed, they can grow a lot, they can grow
old enough, and you know, sometimes that's just further out
than some people are willing to walk.

Speaker 2 (25:23):
Most people are willing to walk.

Speaker 3 (25:26):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:26):
So, okay, I got a question. This This question is
our Pendleton Whiskey question and answer for for the episode.
And this question is going to be a little bit
uh self serving, because this is a question for me.
Normally it's a question from our listeners. But uh, I'm

(25:48):
just gonna say I'm not your your best backcountry mule
deer guy. And here's here's here's the dilemma. Every time
I go mule deer hunting, I can't find mule deer.
I'm covered up in elk right.

Speaker 3 (26:04):
Now.

Speaker 1 (26:05):
If I were elk cutting, i'd probably see nothing but deer.
But every time I go a mule deer. I just
got home from a mulder hunt here in Idaho. You know,
I've got quite a waste back. The access was pretty good.
But I'm back there and I had some good intel.
Phelps had just hunted there and he's like, yeah, you
should go this spot, this spot. Then I get there, man,
I'm just not turning deer up. And then I start thinking, Okay,

(26:29):
maybe maybe I'm just not good at glassing. I can't
pick out deer. But then I start I'm glassing and
I see a little tiny I'm like it, like eight
hundred yards. I picked out a little weasel running across
the ground, you know. And I'm like, I'm seeing little
things like that. I'm seeing an owl in a tree.
I'm like, I'm picking out things like I think I'm
sharp eyed enough, but I'm just missing these deer. But

(26:51):
I'm not seeing the deer.

Speaker 2 (26:52):
But Doug on it elk, like the last the last
day I was there, I woke I was woke.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Up in my tent to bugle an hour before daylight.
And I get up and these elk. It was an
incredible day, Like you know, this is I'm asking about
mule deer, but these elk rudded. They bugled on their
own more than I had any I didn't have this
good action in September. And this was the twenty third
of October. And these bulls are screaming all day. I

(27:21):
watched three different bulls breed cows and these are five
point bowl Two of them were five points well, one
was a four by five, one was a five by five,
and one was a spike. I seen the spike jump
up and breed a cow too, And I'm just like,
what the heck is going on with these elk?

Speaker 2 (27:37):
Number one? But where the heck are the dang deer.

Speaker 1 (27:42):
This one night, I hiked out and glass glass till
almost dark and I get back to my tent right
at dusk, like it's too dark to shoot. But I
get back to I didn't see nothing. Get back to
my tent and there's two meal deer does standing next
to my tent. It's like insult the injury, right, But anyway,
I'm not turning up deer, I'm turning up elk, or

(28:05):
you know, maybe nothing at all. So is it like,
am I just in the wrong spots? I see tracks everywhere.
I'll see tracks everywhere deer here also deal a lot
of deer tracks everywhere, but just catching them there at
the right time. Maybe I'm just not on the right
vantage point. I do know, like one area I glassed

(28:27):
all morning and I didn't turn anything up, But once
I dove in a bit, there were some places I
couldn't see that I couldn't glass up, and there were
deer tracks everywhere in there. So is it just the
matter of like finding the right glassing point, the right
elevation band?

Speaker 2 (28:45):
What? What?

Speaker 3 (28:46):
What?

Speaker 2 (28:46):
Where Am I going wrong here?

Speaker 3 (28:49):
Well? That's that's a great question. And you know, there's
areas I hunt where elk and mealders seem to run
the same areas, and and there's vice versa. We're sometimes
it almost seems like where there's elk, there's not meal there.
Where there's meal there, there's not elk. I've been told
by multiple people in the past that they notice that

(29:11):
when there's more elk numbers that'll it'll drop the meal
their numbers a little bit, you know. But for me,
a lot of the mule deer that I hunt and
kill are are in Elk Habitat, and so I'm hunting
around Elk all the time. There's obviously there is. I mean,
you can look at any mountain range with mule deer

(29:31):
and you can put a big buck just about anywhere
on that mountain. But there's always those places where, like
like I was mentioning, where it's just like really mealy
and what I mean by that, I've always considered, like
mule deer a sheep with antlers. They they love steep.

(29:52):
They they they they feel safe out there, you know,
naturally you see the big ears. They have really good eyes,
and you know there sometimes there's a misconception, especially with
the younger bucks when they get shot, people are like, oh,
they're stupid. They just stand out in the opening. That's
like their actual natural instinct is to see from a

(30:12):
distance and see their predation coming from afar. And but
they also have those spots too. They're they're very adaptable.
Like you know, I've seen it with hunting pressure where
all of a sudden the deer realized, well, they're not
safe in those openings, and after a couple of days,
you don't see them anymore, and they now they're timber.

(30:32):
They're timber animals, and so now you're gonna have to
focus on that. But primetime is really important to me.
You know the question you ask, It really depends on
weather and what the weather's doing. But primetime is so
important to me. With meal they're hunting, especially when you
have hot, sunny days, when you have a consistent cool

(30:55):
at night, warm in the day. You know, these deer
are they have a area, they have a feeding area,
especially the Bigger Bucks especially, and if it's before the rut,
they're gonna put themselves in a place where they feel safe.
And I've noticed not just with Big Bucks, but Big
Bull Elk too. They safety is more of a priority

(31:18):
for them than a food source. And so you'll be
in these bases just like, OK, right where they're all
there's all this feed, and you're like, why aren't the
mule there down here where all the feed is. Well,
they don't feel safe there. They need this. I've talked
about this before, the groceries, shelter and the safety. They

(31:38):
need to feel safe. They need to be able to
have an escape route too. So when I'm looking at
e scouting, sure like I can look at the top
of this basin and you'll see rocks, rock cliffs as
far as I can see up the canyon. Then there
might be a little timber patch. Well, if a big
millie buckles in that little timber patch's I kind of

(32:00):
stuck there, right. He doesn't have an escape route because
he goes to the rocks here, is going to get
killed if he goes in the rocks here. So so
there has to be a balance there of the grocery
shelter and the safety. And like I said, a big buck,
the safety is the biggest priority. And they're always expecting
predation to come from below them. That's one thing I

(32:21):
always look at. Secondly, they just like a good escape route.
So they're going to pick a spot where if a
predator is coming through, they know how to get out.
They can get out of the camp country without being realizing.
You know, And you got a meal their buck that's
seven eight years old. He's smart. He's actually you know,

(32:42):
like I said, people think meaales are stupid, but that's
if you kill young bucks. An old buck is no
different than hunting an old bull elk, an old white tail.
They adapt, they learn there's a reason why they're alive
when they're eight years old. And you know, you get
that seven to eight year old class, you got a
mature mealy on your hands. And so that's what I

(33:02):
like to pursue, you know, And you will find younger
bucks in those areas. There's a lot of feed, right,
So like you can get the older lower elevation, you'll
find young bucks young does and you may not find
the big bucks there because frankly, it's not a safe
place for him.

Speaker 2 (33:23):
Right right, answer your question, Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
Like timing too, Like when when when Phelps was there,
you know, they were hunting, they were seeing a lot
of deer, but there was a lot of other people.
And then I feel like sometimes by the time I
like on this on this particular trip, by the time
I got in there, those deer had been disturbed a bit.
You know, There's been quite a few people through there.
I've seen guys on horses, There've been dirt bikes through.

(33:50):
I feel like at a certain point those deer are
just like, yeah, we've seen enough, We're gonna just hang
super tight. You know, they're not gonna they're not gonna
expose themselves unless you knew exact the right little exact
open patch at the right time and the you know,
the first light or the last light at night, you
might catch them, but you're not going to see him
out on a big open hell side.

Speaker 2 (34:11):
Is that kind of thing exactly?

Speaker 1 (34:13):
That's kind of like or they may just move out
of that and just move on to the backside that
little basin and where they don't get disturbed.

Speaker 3 (34:19):
Yeah, So they're so now they're looking for a bit
more safer place, right, Yeah.

Speaker 1 (34:23):
So the next drainage over on the back side of
this basin, the next drainage over, maybe there's no trails
in it, and now they're not disturbed anymore. Maybe that's
where a guy should be looking more so than on
the side where there's more access.

Speaker 3 (34:39):
That's exactly what I do. Yeah, I'm that. I'll give
another story. So this was twenty nineteen. I a friend
of mine who never killed the meal deer. He drew
a meal deer tag ins othern n Idaho, and I
was actually that was going to be also the first
year I ever hand of Colorado too, and I was like, oh,

(34:59):
my way down, I was like, well, how about this, Like,
I'll help you around this time. I was like, you
can go down whenever you want, but this is the
time I can help you, the last day or the
last week of your season. And I was like, because
that's the time I can also from there in southern Idaho,
I can go to Boise, or not Boise, but go
to kind of you. I did have to drive through Boise, Boise,

(35:22):
Salt Lake, and then into Colorado, but I can make
my route through it, you know. So anyways, my first
stop was his hunt, and you know he already had
a couple of weeks of hunting pressure, right, just like
what you're saying. So so where I was first thinking
we're going to see deer, we were not seeing deer,

(35:43):
not a lot. But but we are looking on the maps.
I'm like, well, as soon as this road ends right here,
there's a lot of side by side trails, so's this
road ends here. There's a couple draws that just look
really undisturbed, and it's something that I would personally think
that someone would overlook. It was funny, as we put
in at that time, we were four and five half

(36:04):
five miles in and we were just we were hiking.
Another time I should have packed a side by side
or before. We didn't, but we were crossing from uh,
we were crossing, you know, side by side trail, side
by side trail, just hiking and we're seeing side by
sides just driving up and down glassing and we're just like, man,
this is I don't know, We're this is gonna work,

(36:26):
you know what I mean. But in my mind, like
I said, I was looking at that map, I was like,
if if I was a meal there, and I had
a couple of weeks of hunting pressure, this is where
I go. And as soon as we left the road
system and we got in that part of that section
of that unit where there was no roads, groups of does,
groups of dos, and this was late October, the next

(36:49):
drainage over a bachelor group of bucks. And I handed
it was my gun, and it's all dialed, so I
trust it. I handed it to my friend. I said,
he's never killed a meal in his life. He smokes
a buck. And this thing, it's it's lopsided, but even
as being lopsided as it is, it's still scored close.
It was high one eighties, almost one.

Speaker 2 (37:09):
Holy wow. Wow.

Speaker 3 (37:10):
And I just told him yeah, And I told him
I'm like, I'm just letting you know now that you
may never kill a buck this big again.

Speaker 2 (37:18):
That's by the buck of a lifetime.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
And it was like, this is your first, like, this
is your first ever mule deer, like a lot of
experience mule deer hunters don't kill bucks like this. And
he was super grateful, he was really excited. And you know,
with two guys to boned mule there, we were able
to get it out pretty easy. We were six we
were I think, yeah, we were a total of six
miles back and we had to pack it house.

Speaker 2 (37:41):
W wow.

Speaker 1 (37:43):
That's another question I was going to ask earlier or later.
But a boned out mule deer, if you're solo, can
you expect to let's say your day tripping it?

Speaker 3 (37:55):
Right?

Speaker 1 (37:55):
Can you bone out a big mule deer buck and
pack that one trip? Or you think I might want
a two trip. But they're a pretty big animal.

Speaker 2 (38:03):
It's it's heavy.

Speaker 3 (38:04):
It's like it's like an elk rear.

Speaker 2 (38:06):
Okay, so that's seventy eighty pounds.

Speaker 3 (38:10):
Yeah, yeah, give or take too, you know, And it
depends on the unit because some units, they don't require
you to pack the rib meat, you know, in some
units due and and so I I typically like, there's like,
especially in Idaho, there's like no rib meat on a deer,
and I'm like, I don't want to mess with ribs.
So but I'll pack everything else out obviously. But uh,

(38:32):
but yeah, it's I've done it. Where like let's say
it's just one of those days I don't feel like
packing heavy. I'm like, this is going to be a
two day trip, like but Sundays, I'm like, I don't
want to be back here again. I'm a long ways back.
Let's take as many breaks as I have to. I'm
getting this whole thing out in one trip. I've done it.
It's it's comparable to it. Like I said, it's about

(38:53):
comparable to an elk quarter, like a like a big rear,
I would say, but if you're on a k and
stuff too, like I did that. I packed not last year.
So last year I killed a big buck and they
weren't paying much for capes and I was like, it's

(39:13):
half the trip, half the hikes up hill, and I'm
like I'm leaving the cape. Just just just the meat,
just the meat, in the in the skull, you know,
and so but yeah, you can do it if you're
if you're dedicated, if you can do it one trip,
you know, it's just it's extra.

Speaker 2 (39:35):
Wait.

Speaker 3 (39:36):
After packing moose quarters, I tell you what, el quarter
is so light? I so I packed Travis killed a
big bowl the other day and you saw that.

Speaker 2 (39:45):
I saw that so jealous.

Speaker 3 (39:48):
Yeah it's a giant and yeah, so but that quarter,
I can you know. I was just like, is this
really a rear? Like it? After packing a rear moose,
I was like, I can actually manhandle this quarter. I
can pick it up and put it in the bag
a moose Like, I'm it is so hard to manhandle

(40:10):
those moose quarters. I also would not use a qu
bag for a moose quarter either, Like I like a
lot of a lot of Alaskans use the Barney's. But
I'm sure everybody has their own special packs. But a
qu bag gets me through with meal dear nelk any
day just fine. But for but for moose, I need
a Barney's like a big metal frame bag. And they

(40:34):
got good like you can get the weight high too.
They kind of have a big shelf where you can
pick the weight up high and stuff, so that makes
it nice. My little you see my sister, she's she's
a short little girl, and she throws moose quarters on
that are just as tall as she is, and she
just walks out.

Speaker 2 (40:52):
She's tough. She's amazing.

Speaker 3 (40:54):
She's tough. Yeah, but yeah, yeah, I guess I'm answering
every question very slowly and detail.

Speaker 2 (41:00):
No, I love it. I love it.

Speaker 1 (41:02):
How many days do you think, you know, if someone
wants to be a successful mule deer hunter, can you
just weaken warrior it? Or if you want to, like,
if you really want to get into this, you want
to take like a ten day trip, how many days
should you really expect to take off to go on
a on a mule theier trip? And and like how

(41:23):
many days do you expect to be in Colorado where
you're at?

Speaker 3 (41:27):
So with this this season, it's it's a very it's
called second season, which which this season kind of goes
throughout a lot of states. I'm not giving out any
detail of this, but it's about an eight day season
and so it's short, so I'm going to stay the
whole time. For me, I think this is the most
important thing for hunters to know, and we don't, and

(41:48):
I don't think people think about this often, but I
before every hunt, I try to prepare myself financially, right
like that. I try to get all my tea's cross
and I's dotted. If there's bills I need to pay,
I try to get those done. You know. The last
thing I want to do with when I go on

(42:09):
a trip is feel like half of myself's at home.
Like it's really hard for me to focus. I mean,
for sure, I still like to. You know, I'm consistently
anytime I'm in service, call my wife and kids, tell
them how much I love them and stuff. But when
I'm out there hunting, I don't want to feel like,
oh shoot, I have all these work obligations at home.

(42:29):
I don't have all this stuff I need to get
done at home. Like that stuff will make a guy
come home early, you know what I mean. And so
and also not be prepared either, so not bringing everything
you need, not you know, not having a comfortable camp.
You know, Like like for me, what I do is
I and I'll rough a camp. But I'll tell you
what I did on this trip in which we kind

(42:50):
of talked about it. Right, So this right here is
so I said, this is like a base camp right here.
Got my wal tent and I have power here, which
is nice. Yeah, I just I picked a camp site
in my unit and close to town. I can get
groceries and stuff and then at least in this area,
in this you not have that luxury, right, not all

(43:12):
units have that. But now I also have a small
little qu tint. So if I have somewhere, I want
to spend a couple of days in the back country
and not have to wake up like crazierly in the
morning to hike four to five miles to get to
where I'm actually a mule deer. I can actually pack
a little day camp, you know, back there and sleep

(43:32):
and then hike tomorrow. I've got a lot of energy
to burn off, so I'm just going to do it
one day, seven miles in seven miles. It's going to
be at least that's how the trail goes. But you
know how it is, you start taking your own routes
and stuff, it's probably going to end up being fifteen
or sixteen miles by the end of the day.

Speaker 2 (43:51):
Oh definitely.

Speaker 3 (43:52):
But I got energy, Like I said, I've just been
I've been scouting and a lot of my scouting has just
been running road systems and stuff and trying to find
trail heads to you know, seeing if I can access
the trail heads. And but no, I'm looking forward tomorrow.
I'll be doing a lot of hiking. I'll be burning
a lot of energy. You're asking earlier about on average

(44:13):
how far you can hike, I'd say, how far do
you expect to hike? I'd say, you know, it depends
on the area. But for day hunting. For day hiking,
I like places between four to five miles and and
four to five miles out, Like if you start getting

(44:33):
a little further than that, you kind of want to
Typically I'll like to camp it out and just wake
up and not and be fully rested as a you know,
as I'm starting to hunt me ole deer. But like
I said, tomorrow, I'm just going to try to do
it all one day. Though it's just gonna oh it's
going to be a.

Speaker 2 (44:51):
Big day tomorrow.

Speaker 3 (44:52):
Looking forward to it though, all I need is one day.
I just need one deer.

Speaker 1 (44:56):
So oh yeah, yeah, and if you have to double
you can make two trips.

Speaker 3 (45:01):
Yeah, I'll make two trips out of it. So that's
not a problem at all. Like I said, I got time. So,
like I said, I like to financially prepare myself. And
it's not just like doesn't mean you have everything paid off.
Just you have everything, all your ducks in line before
you leave your house. Otherwise you're going to feel like
you're missing things at home. I said, if you rough
it too much, then I feel like a lot of guys,

(45:23):
you got to know your own self too, and what
you can handle, because if you're roughing out too much,
you realize you can't handle that. That also might make
you come home early. So so don't rough it as hard,
take your time. You know. I'm the type of guy
like I I can live like a nomad. I can
just you know, I can spend weeks in the bush

(45:47):
without having any soeul service and I'll be okay. And
but but there is something to be said about having
a nice base camp. We're comfortable, got good food, and
then go from there, you know, especially when you're hunting
out of towns.

Speaker 1 (46:04):
Right right, I found if I'm let's say, like this September,
we did a lot of backpack hunting, bivy hunting, and
well spike camp after being in there four or five days.

Speaker 2 (46:17):
Man, you kind of get chewed up.

Speaker 1 (46:20):
And sped out a little bit by the mountain and
the elk, you know, and and if you can come
out and take a shower or like we didn't have showers,
but we could jump in a We jumped in the
creek right and washed and cleaned up and like just
had some normal food instead of freeze dried. It's like
a really good reset, like just getting clean, getting refocused,

(46:42):
like okay, you know, maybe had cell service called home
made everything sure, everything was good, Everything's good, and it's
almost like, okay, round two, we're just fresh as a
fresh as a daisy again. Just that means a lot
to be able to have that kind of a backup
spot or a place to like kind of recharge, clean up,
and then go go again without. You know, if you

(47:03):
didn't have that, you may you may just throw in
the talent say you know what, heck with it, I'm
gonna go home.

Speaker 3 (47:07):
Yeah. Well, and probably the longest I've ever stayed out
is because of a wall tent too. When you have
a wall tent, like for me, it's staying dry, like
you know, I can the camping in September is actually
it just depends in the area too. If it's like
really rough weather. But if it's like nice weather, I
can stay a very long time, you know, hunting in September.

(47:28):
But with a lot of weather and stuff that does
wear on you, you know, and it doesn't matter if
there's good weather or bad weather. A wall tent with
a wood stove, man, I tell you what, that's a
game changer. So if you're able to pack in with
lamas or horses and mules, or if you guys use goats,
use that, utilize that. If you're going far back, I

(47:50):
will tell you right now, you will. You'll be really
comfortable at camp. You know, pack some good meals like
space those mountain houses or Peak Refield or whatever. Space
out those freeze dry's meal. I do my own freeze dried. Well.
When I say I do my own, I make the
list of things I want and I give it to

(48:11):
my wife. I'm like, make that for me, please, And
so she makes packages them for me, and so I
just give her the ingredients and so she makes me
the meals. And so I got plenty of free dried
meals right now. And it's good to feel prepared, you know,
like you know, on this hunt, I may you know,
you never know it's a hunt, so I may come

(48:33):
out without a meal, dear. But the thing is, I'm
I'm prepared on this hunt. I have everything I need.
I feel comfortable at camp and I've done enough eat
scouting enough to where even like my brother today, I
was talking to my brother, He's like, hey, I have
another lead for you of somebody that may have hunted

(48:54):
that union in the past. I'm like, honestly, it doesn't
matter what they tell me. It's great to have more information,
but at this point of the amount of scouting I've done,
I don't think I need any more information. Like I
feel like I'm ready. I just need to put in
the miles. I just need to hunt like you can.
I can litter this whole unit with pins and where

(49:14):
there's once a big mule there once lived, you know,
but it's dead now, so I can't kill that meal
there anymore.

Speaker 2 (49:21):
You can't chase gut piles.

Speaker 3 (49:23):
You can't chase gut pile. And you know, like I said,
the more hunting pressure in an area, the less age
class you have. So but he that being said, I
feel ready on this hunt, and I'm excited, you know,
the nervousness is kind of gone, i'd like to say,
and I'm just ready to throw my pack on. I'm

(49:44):
just itching the hike. And but I don't want to
push everything out some of the areas where I want
to go. I feel like if I go in there now,
I'll push the mealis out. So I'm just like, just
go opener, don't push anything out, and go from there.

Speaker 1 (50:00):
I think that's smart, would you say so? So primetime,
that's first light, last light, midday? Are you still like
just picking apart, like looking in the shadows of tree
tree wells and just looking everywhere like with a spot
or just trying to Okay, I haven't spotted the buck
I want, but I think there's probably some other deer
betted on this hillside or these little clumps of timber

(50:23):
or whatever you can glass into. Are you just glassing
to those midday just trying to like find something or
are you kind of recharging the batteries a little bit,
you know, and just taking a break, taking a nap.

Speaker 2 (50:35):
Are you hiking? Are you like are you are you.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Busting through timber just like trying to like maybe jump
one what are you doing are you that mid day?
So if it's not primetime, so it's usually that's that's
a lot of great.

Speaker 3 (50:51):
That's great question. And I think it depends on the weather.
It depends on the habitat. Like if it's an area
where there's just like there's only one little opening them
for them to feed in. Let's say, like and it's
going to be hot in the day. I mean to me,
the writing's on the wall, right, especially if it's early
season meal there. And when I mean early, I'm talking

(51:12):
like still in October. I might take a nap, I
might just rest up, you know, I especially if you
take a lot of time off the meal there. Hunt.
I want to like, I'm trying to utilize the best
days possible on the hunt. Like if there's a good
weather day, I'm like, this is the day I want

(51:33):
to put in all my energy.

Speaker 1 (51:44):
And a good weather day is that Like is that
kind of like an overcast day, maybe a drizzled day,
it'd be a cold.

Speaker 3 (51:50):
Yeah, a cold day could be a weather day. One thing,
I really I like to hunt, not just it's I
love hunting in the weather. I just hate dealing with
technology in the weather. So us with our filming and stuff.
It's just a hassle dealing with a video camera. But
man if I didn't have to do with a video camera.
I love hunting on a stormy day. When the storms
are going on and off throughout the day, it makes

(52:11):
like they'll they'll bed down, feed, bed down, feed throughout
the day, and you're just like you're getting all day activity.
Another thing I like is right after a massive storm
and it just cools everything down, they'll just pound the
next couple of days just hard. I'm like, this is
all my energy I've saved up for and you know

(52:32):
it's the same I see what they'll cunt in Tea
where you'll see a storm, Like you look at the forecast,
you see a big storm coming and it's like, in
the next couple of days it's going to be super hot.
I'm like, honestly, I'm not gonna waste my time in
these really hot days. Like I'll hunt the prime time,
I'll hunt the evening, but all day on those after
that storm hits off's I'm gonna put all my energy in.

(52:54):
People burn themselves out before the hunting gets good, and
so I like to pay myself sometimes, so I'm not
trying to be like a lazy hunter, but sometimes you
like to pace yourself to say that you can't glass
up a mule there mid day in the hot day.
I'm not saying you can't. Yes, sometimes they are glassy,
you know, if you have nothing else to do, to

(53:14):
put your eyes in the glass and scan the whole hillside,
look under every you know, under every tree, every nook
and cranny, every every rock. You know. But my time
is best spent in prime time on those hot days.
And you know, I see in the weather too, we're
going to have some storms next week and I'm just like,

(53:35):
bring it barring the storms, and I'm looking forward to it.
I really love a snow background too, So that's always helpful.
All of different techniques, I mean, I it's and it's
all scenario based, right. That's why it's really hard to
it's really hard to say if you do a B

(53:57):
and C, this is what you're going to get on D.
You know, hunting's very especially hunting the older it's it's
one of those things you have to adapt to, right,
you know. And I always wish I can give a
direct answer for everything, because it's like, you know, You're like, Okay,
in this scenario, time, what do I do. I'm like, well,
it depends what's the weather doing. Because if the weather's

(54:18):
doing this, I'm not going to do that. If it's
doing this, then I will do that. You know, in
the rut, I will hunt the rut differently than I'll
hunt pre rut. Right so, right now, at this time,
it's not the rut, and so I'm gonna hunt. I'm
gonna find bucks. I'm going to ignore dose because the
bucks are not where the dos are. Maybe some younger bucks,

(54:38):
but if I see a do, I'm likenk like, oh,
there could be a big buck near by. No, I'm
going to ignore every dough I see. And I'm just
gonna go where I think a big Buck's going to go.
When the rut kicks in, I my my gears change.
I am like, I'm not going where I think a
big Buck's going to go. I'm going where the dose
are because that big buck he's going to make his

(54:59):
routes and he's eventually gonna connect to those does.

Speaker 2 (55:02):
Right.

Speaker 1 (55:03):
Yeah, he leaves his fortress of solitude and then he
goes he goes on the prowl for those does.

Speaker 3 (55:07):
So exactly. We're talking about that safety that they like,
those big bucks lose that all of a sudden they're
in the rut. That is your window. It's the same
with elk. That is your window to kill a big bull.
Elk is during the rut. Same thing with the mealy buck.
That's the time when they their guard is down. They
still can be skittish, but their guard is down. They're

(55:28):
focused on dos and they're focused focused on breeding. And
you can catch a big buck, you know, and for
him the wrong place at the wrong time for you
the right place, right time.

Speaker 1 (55:38):
Right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely, But I love tracking bucks
in the snow.

Speaker 3 (55:43):
It's fun.

Speaker 1 (55:45):
Yeah, you've you've had some really good success. I've watched
some videos. You've got some crazy videos on YouTube. In
case our listeners haven't seen Tom and his family, they
have stuck in the Rut YouTube channel, and man, there's
so many, so many good in credit videos of all species.
But there's some really cool ones.

Speaker 3 (56:02):
A mule there too, Yeah, thank you. Yeah, i'd say
in my family because like I said, Tana, Tanna's a mule.
There's Lebra Adams, a moose snob. Travis is the elk snob.
I'm like, I'm an elk, like I you know, and
our whole family will everything. But everybody has their own
animal that they just like really gravitate to and hunting,

(56:24):
And for me, I mean wolves. I got into wolf
fund just because I was a pissed off elk hunter, right,
So that's how I got in the wolf But Meali's
there's just some about mellies that I've always loved and
and Mealie's that's my a Mealy Snob's that's that's like,
you know, And I wouldn't say there's something about the

(56:45):
magic of September and bulan elk, but there's also some
about the magic and chasing a big rut and Mealy
buck with a swelled neck in the snow in the rocks,
just looking back. I always have this image in my
head of a big muster but just looking back at
me in the rocks, and and it's just like, as
I'm hiking, and I know I have a long ways ago,

(57:08):
it's like, how do you occupy yourself in that long hike?
I just that image just replays my head over and
over and over again, just on repeat, of that big
buck just around the corner on the next drainage, you know,
and and that's what keeps my blood going.

Speaker 2 (57:24):
I love it.

Speaker 3 (57:26):
I love cafe.

Speaker 1 (57:30):
So I have to ask you this because I know
I have this. It's like an internal monologue. And this
plays throughout the year, and of course more intense in September.
But I get this internal monologue in this little voice
inside my head. It's my own voice, but it's like,
got to kill a big bull, got to kill a
big bull, got to kill a big bull, got to
find a big bull. Like this little thing in my head,

(57:52):
Like it's like on repeat, and it's almost like your
your your little vision of that of the big mule,
your buck is that kind of Do you have that
internal monologue that, oh my God, says that same stuff
to you.

Speaker 3 (58:05):
It's worse when I'm solo because I actually start saying
it slightly out loud. I'm like, if somebody, yeah heard me,
I think I'm a crazy person.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
I know I need to say, like if I'm by myself,
I was, yeah, I mutter it.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
I was driving, right, I was driving, and I was
I'm just like, you can do this toime, you can
kill a big bug. I was saying it out loud,
and I'm just like if somebody was sitting with me
next to in my seat, or just like what dude,
you need to calm the freak down, or you know.

Speaker 2 (58:34):
Like, what's wrong with this guy?

Speaker 3 (58:36):
What's wrong with this guy?

Speaker 1 (58:37):
Okay, well I didn't know if I was a weirdo.
And I'm like, no, I don't know what you're talking about.
So it's good other people have this stuff going inside
their head. And I wonder about, you know, all of
our listeners who are dedicated hunters, if they have that
same little internal monologue or maybe sometimes they mutter mumble
to themselves that same kind of stuff like.

Speaker 2 (58:56):
Oh, I gotta find the big buck, where's the big poll?
I gotta get it, Like.

Speaker 3 (59:01):
I think meal deer too, So like elk hunt and
stuff is one of those animals I like to hunt
as a group with other people and stuff, you know,
and it could with post ra elk and then also
with just hunt Mealle's for something to be said. I
love the solo part of it. And you know, there's
a lot of ways you can prepare for a hunt.
You can you can prepare yourself physically, right, but I'm

(59:24):
going back to like preparing yourself mentally, like for me, Like,
I know, some guys that are just really good in shape,
are really in shape, you know. And I'll use my
little brother for example, Trevor. He's really in shape and
he he's he's like a very avid elk hunter, so
you know, so just not to confuse there, I have
my older brother Traps my little brother Trevor. Trevor is
a very avid elk hunter, and he's very avid in

(59:46):
a lot of other hunts, but meal deer is one
of those animals he never really got into. And so
he's physically in shape to kill a mule deer, but
he just like doesn't put in the time right. And
not a dis on your brother if you're listening, but uh,

(01:00:06):
he's a good hunter, like everybody in the family is.
But like and even even Travis and even my brother
in law Adam, they all say, like, dude, like Travis
is a little bit more Mealy hunter than you know
with me. But you know, Adam says, he's just like, dude,
I just can't do what you do with Meal there,
like just putting in the time, you know, like with
Mealy's And.

Speaker 1 (01:00:27):
He's not that mad at him, He's not that bad
at the Meal there, like to put in that amount
of time and effort.

Speaker 2 (01:00:32):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:00:33):
He's like that with Moose right and and Travis. Like
I said, he's more of like elk, Like elk is
one of those things. He just feels like that's his fix,
Like he has to kill his elk, you know. And me,
that's my meal there. I'm like, I have to get
a meal there. This year. I have two meal there tags.
But I'm like, at least one of them needs field
and it has to be on a big buck that's

(01:00:54):
in my head, you know. And also when and not decinating,
but I okay, I'm just gonna I'm just gonna speak,
just just say what I'm going to say. And uh,
you know a lot of people say that it's about
It's just about the whole experience of the hunt. Just

(01:01:14):
imagine anyone playing a sport. They imagine an NFL player saying,
I'm just here to have a good time.

Speaker 1 (01:01:20):
Yeah no, No, they're not there for that. Hey, they're
they're they're on a mission, right or there for a win.
They're there for a win. When I go a meal,
they're hunting and hunt any animal. I'm on a mission.
My mission is to kill now what if I don't
kill like And then I'll reflect back on the experience

(01:01:42):
and I'll say, you know, still, I learned a lot
on that hunt. What can I do better?

Speaker 3 (01:01:47):
So I don't make the same mistakes, right, Like, I'm
not going to go out of the hunt not learn something.
I'm not going to say I come out every you know,
out of every hunt successfully. But when I go on
a hunt, I'm on a mission. I didn't travel away
from my family for this many days. It's it's an
eight day hunt. But I'm I'm I've been down here

(01:02:08):
for a couple of days already, and then the drive
back is a long drive, and so you know, there's
a lot of time I'm away from the family. Once again.
I'm not here just for oh I just I'm here
for take a picture of the sunset. No, I'm not
here for a sunset photo. I'm here for a big
mealy buck. And I would love that. I would love

(01:02:30):
to take a photo of a big millied buck with
a sunset in the background. That would be nice with
you in it, with me exactly, No, not someone else
but me in it.

Speaker 1 (01:02:40):
Yeah, I get that mindset too, you know, Yeah, you know,
of course we we love the whole experience of hunting
and being in the woods and just being immersed in it.
I mean, who doesn't you know, but you can. You
could kind of get those same fixes if you just
wanted to go on hikes in the summertime, just being out,
you know, in beautiful places in the woods, and the
weather's probably a little nicer, and it might even be

(01:03:00):
a little funner without the pressure of killing. But I'm
the same way. I want to I'm i'm I want
to know, I'm showing up to notch my tag. I
want to I want to bring home an elk, I
want to bring home a deer or whatever. But I
can see your point though, too. It's like, yeah, I
have that same mindset or feeling when I go elk hunting,
maybe not so much Muldier hunting. I'm not as maybe

(01:03:21):
driven or as as like mad at the deer. Yeah,
I always give Phelps a hard time while you're so
mad at.

Speaker 2 (01:03:28):
These deer, these bears.

Speaker 1 (01:03:30):
But but but I do understand that whole mindset, which
I can appreciate.

Speaker 2 (01:03:38):
So we're we're about out of time. I wanted to.

Speaker 1 (01:03:41):
Talk quiz a little bit. So you you've talked here
for an hour about mule deer hunting and stuff. You
actually have a hunting course on how to hunt mule
deer that you've you've built, designed and can you.

Speaker 2 (01:03:56):
Talk about that a little bit?

Speaker 3 (01:03:57):
Yes, I can, And you know, for the m pformation
we shared today is honest, just like a sliver or
what you can learn on that meal their masterclass. So
I did this online course. It's been going for now.
I think it's has it been three years? I think
I've had this course now for three years. I updated,
I put new information in it every every single year.
At the end of the meal of their season, I
have a lot more new content when I post a

(01:04:20):
hunt on YouTube, and I would do it for the entertainment,
I don't really show the whole process when on the
meal of their master class, I show the whole process.
I show from e scouting to arriving to showing what
I do and finding the bucks. I said, most of
these hunts, you know, as much as I want to
feel like people are giving me way points, that's not
really how I'm finding deer. Like I said, I'm I

(01:04:42):
try to hunt deer that don't have any hunting pressure,
and so I'm out going in places where there hasn't
been a gut pile in a while, and I'm trying
to create a new gut pile with an old with
an old, mature meal deer, and I'm hunting, and I
guess a couple of questions that I've had to answer,
you know, because it's kind of a similar one is

(01:05:03):
does it work in all terrains? And I'd say, yes,
it does. You know, when I there was a time
when I started hunting sagebrushed country mule deer. The first
time in my head I ever thought was these are
a different meal theer that when I'm used to hunting,
I'm hunting heavy timber bucks and in the high mountains
and not this flat country in the desert. Well, I've
come to find out they're the same deer. It's just

(01:05:26):
their habitat's different. That's the only thing that's different. They're
the same deer. If you threw a big, old timber
buck in the sage brush, he's going to eventually adapt
to the sagebrush terrain and he's going to act like
any other sagebrush mule deer vice versa. You throw a
sagebrush mule theer up in the heavy mountains, he's going
to act the same. Some some migrations are far like Wyoming,

(01:05:48):
where you get so much snow. If the deer stay,
they died, right. Some areas don't get as much snow,
so they the man the ameaalies pulled to the base
of the mountain. Instead of making this one hundred mile trick,
you know, maybe it's as simple of just dropping some elevation.
So Maryas don't get snow at all, right, and so
so in the meal their Masterclass, what I do is

(01:06:10):
I try to help people understand the meal deer itself.
And so that's kind of the first thing I do
is we teach. And I'm using this not just on
my own knowledge, but it's knowledge from other experienced meal
their hunters. So and I'm talking like old timers, guys
that I've looked up to for years who taught me
how to hunt meal deer. These are guys that are
they're in their seventies and they're too old to hike,

(01:06:32):
and they kind of live through us. They see the
big mealies I kill and it just brings them joy
because they're like they know they're the they're responsible for
teaching me. These things and these hunting tactics and and
so so when I'm saying, when I create this meal
their master class. Remember it's not just my life experience,

(01:06:55):
but it's several years, several generations of experience in hunt
meal deer bucks. And so this is from covering, you know,
and I cover throughout the year, from shed hunting to
scouting in the summers, to hunting in the fall, from
September hunting, October, November and even December hunting. If you
if you guys have a unit where it's a post

(01:07:17):
rut meal there hunt, so we cover everything meal there.
And and as you guys know too, is I have
If anyone who's follows stuck in the rut, you would
know that we hunt heavy timber a lot too. And
so which is a completely different tactic than most meal
their hunters know. It is hunting timber, hunting close range
to these mealy bucks. You know. For me, I'm either hunting,

(01:07:41):
I'm either glassing for long rain shot a six of
seven hundred yards, or I'm shooting a meal there. Like
last year, I'm hunting. I was hunting an area where
the mountains nine timber, you know, And as soon as
the snow gets deep in the above tree line, above
that above tree line. Then they just they pull the
timber right and you're timber hunting. There's no glassing, you know,

(01:08:06):
maybe a little glassing, which I explain in the video.
And you're but you're doing a lot of observation. You're
you're you're observing scat, you're observing tracks. You know. The
one thing I teach about tracks is, you know, tracks
always tell a story. You know, when you're when you're
all cunning in September, same thing, you're seeing a herd
of coug, you see a bull track, you see what

(01:08:28):
you're seeing. What's going on? You're seeing a story right there.
And you're trying to put the story together. And what
they're doing are they feeding is are they just passing through?
Are they bedding down? Like you know, you're trying to
find everything. Like the tracks tell a story, A rub
tells a story. Trying to find out if it's a
rub line that mealies frequently pass or is it simply

(01:08:52):
just a random rub that a buck made. You know, Yeah,
I teach about rub lines. I teach about calling a
lot of how many people do you hear of callin mule? Deer.

Speaker 1 (01:09:03):
I can count on one hand and only use a
couple of fingers. Not very many people call mule deer.

Speaker 3 (01:09:10):
Yeah, and I've and I've killed quite a few call him,
believe it or not, the bull or the buck. I
called him last year. I called it and it was
using I was using that Phelps uh phone call. Oh yeah,
yeah it was money man brought that buck right in.
It was awesome. So yeah, it does work. But I've
also used grunt tubes. I've rattled Mule's I did rattle.

(01:09:32):
If you watched last year's YouTube episode, it shows me.
I rattled a pretty nice h He needed one more year.
He's about a three year old, so we'll see this year.
I'll see how he looks this year if he crosses
my path. But he was like he needs to get
those forks bigger. But he had a good frame.

Speaker 2 (01:09:53):
Well yeah, how can people look this course up?

Speaker 3 (01:09:56):
So it's uh, it's it's wordy, but it's stuck in
round mule der masterclass dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:10:03):
Okay, stuck in the rut.

Speaker 3 (01:10:05):
Spell that stuck and stuck s t U c K
And instead of I n the rut dot com, I'll
do it again, S T I cannot close my eyes.
S T U C K and T H E R
you T and then mule der Masterclass dot com. Okay,

(01:10:28):
great and so and you'll have the well you have
that in the s side notes of the podcast.

Speaker 2 (01:10:33):
Yeah, I can.

Speaker 3 (01:10:34):
I can link.

Speaker 2 (01:10:34):
Yeah, I can put the link in there absolutely.

Speaker 3 (01:10:36):
Okay. Yeah, So if you guys need that, go to
the link and and it'll just I'll direct you right too.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Yeah, check it out.

Speaker 1 (01:10:43):
I I think I definitely need to to to to
dive in on that master class and learn a thing
or five about mule your hunting. I'm definitely not an
old pro at it, that's for sure.

Speaker 3 (01:10:58):
Yeah. And then then the other thing, and I know
we're at a time here, Yeah, but I want to
give some of the positive feedback I've got from it, because,
like I said, it's been around for three years now,
for three years, and and this is the type of
feedback so I've got from beginning beginner hunters who have
killed their first meal deer. But that which gives me
a lot of confidence in the course that I created.

(01:11:20):
But also the thing that means most of me is
these experience hunters, experience hunters that have hunted for years
that have said I never knew that about mule deer. Yeah,
And I'm like, that means a lot to me for
an experienced meal their hunter. You know, I hear experienced
Meal their hunter buying the course of like, oh, he's
going to judge, he's going to judge my experience. But

(01:11:43):
I've had really positive experience, or very positive feedback from it,
really experienced Meal their hunters, and that means a lot
to me. And so and a lot of it too,
especially with snow conditions and howp meal their handles snow
conditions way different than any animal you've ever hunted, I
tell you what.

Speaker 2 (01:12:00):
And there was well I know that.

Speaker 1 (01:12:05):
Whenever I came up and we went wolf hunting and
we talked like schoolgirls for two or three days there
about all hunting in general, and we talked elk hunting
and mule you're hunting man. There was like all these
little things you were telling me, and I was like, oh, yeah,
that's every thought of that, Like that's that's pretty that's
pretty smart, that's pretty good, you know.

Speaker 3 (01:12:25):
So, and.

Speaker 1 (01:12:28):
You know, we spent three days together and we talked
all sorts of stuff, and I know your course has
way more than that it's video based, right, it's not
like you're not reading PDF.

Speaker 2 (01:12:37):
So it's like you're not going to just glaze over.
You get to watch and listen.

Speaker 3 (01:12:40):
Yeah, and as mad ton as my voice is, I mean,
you're gonna pick up a lot. But I got, you know,
I have. You know, there's charts I show. I show
East scouting, and that's the thing. And I even show
you like in the woods, not just like some stuff.
I'm just like explaining something, but I'm showing in the wood.
It's like certain things to not ignore. And and it's

(01:13:06):
all about being a you know, observant too. But yeah,
I mean it's really I think what really taught me
so much about meal there too, more than just a
lot of the experienced hunters that, like I said, all
these old timers that pass it down is I put
it to work, and I put it to work in
areas that have very little meal their numbers. Like these

(01:13:27):
are places where honestly, if I had to travel, I
wouldn't Like if I had to travel several hundred miles
to hunt these places, I wouldn't go to them. I
only go to them because they're convenient, because they're closer
to home. And people like other experienced hunters aren't pulling
big mullies anymore. And I am, And I'm not saying
that in a cocky way. I'm just saying that I

(01:13:49):
think outside the box a little bit with mealies, and
and I've learned It's taught me so much, especially hunting
meal there in wolf country. It's taught me so much
about how to find where there's very little meal deer.
I kind of feel spoiled actually where I'm at now,
just because I'm like, there's a lot of deer here,
like this is kind of cool. Like I that I'm

(01:14:11):
obviously going for a big one, but I'm just like,
I'm definitely going to take my time in this unit,
and I'm holding out for a big one. And if
I eat my tag hold out for a big one,
so be it. But that's that's what I'm after here.
And but yeah, you're gonna it's a great course. So
I recommend checking it out for sure. Man.

Speaker 1 (01:14:32):
Well, I can't thank you enough for coming on the
show again. Where can people find you on social media
if they want to follow along on Instagram, Facebook and YouTube?

Speaker 3 (01:14:42):
Yeah, so we have. It's just stuck in the rut
spelled s t U c K with an N instead
of I N. So stuck m the Rut dot com. Uh,
we have a website there. We we have it, like
our Instagram is just at Stuck in the Rut YouTube channel.
Stuck in the Rut YouTube's our baby. I always say

(01:15:04):
that YouTube is what gave us our name because we've
been using YouTube for years. I think now we're last
I checked, we're at we're over three hundred. All I
know is we're over three hundred thousand subscribers on our
YouTube channel, and so we have a lot there. We
start a little late on the Instagram, but we still

(01:15:24):
have a fair amount of followers there and on Facebook.
So yeah, I mean, if you want to stay updated
for upcoming hunts and events that we do and when
we post YouTube channels, definitely follow our instagram because we
keep you updated. And obviously, like every as soon as
I kill something and I'm in service, we posted on
our Instagram, right, So so YouTube usually it's usually until

(01:15:48):
after hunting season to where I have time to sit
at a computer. I've tried the whole let's try editing
these videos as we go. It does not work. Just
so busy, this is the busiest time of the year
for us, with between wrapping up work projects to hunting.
It's like wintertime is really slow for me. That's when
I put on pajamas and a hoodie and I just

(01:16:13):
stare at a screen for nearly a month editing videos.

Speaker 2 (01:16:19):
Yeah, crawling your little cave and just edit. I hear
I've been there too.

Speaker 1 (01:16:27):
Yeah, it's almost like that. Well man, thanks a lot,
and I wish you the best of luck down there.
I can't wait to see your pictures and I can't
wait to watch your videos once.

Speaker 3 (01:16:39):
Thank you, and I always enjoy talking to you, Derek.
And like I said, the very small small amount of
time we hunted wolf hunting, it was fun.

Speaker 2 (01:16:48):
Yeah, well, we'll have to go do it again sometime.

Speaker 3 (01:16:50):
By the way, that wolf pack is still there. Dang it,
that's that one that was that wolf pack. While I
was in Alaska, somebody's telling me that wolfpack was still there.
And the first time he's like, there was a I
won't get too much detail, guess because I know we
got to go. But the father he was telling me about,
you know, the wolves, and then he's like he had
his son go in there, and he's like what do

(01:17:12):
I do? And I gave him just a couple of
tips they're calling the wolves, and he brought him right
in and he killed no kid.

Speaker 2 (01:17:21):
Yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker 3 (01:17:23):
A part of me that's happy for him, A part
of me I'm like, I wish I had time to
go in there.

Speaker 2 (01:17:28):
That could have been you.

Speaker 3 (01:17:29):
Yeah, but it was the same spot you and I
went to. But I'm happy for him. I'm glad there's
one nut wolf in that drainage.

Speaker 2 (01:17:34):
So yeah, so awesome.

Speaker 1 (01:17:38):
Well, well we'll catch up after hunting season, Yeah, for sure,

(01:18:04):
Dame