January 8, 2025 • 33 mins
On this week's In Service Of Bastille frontman Dan Smith joins Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to talk about the band's wonderful new literary inspired album. Smith shares some of his favorite books, stories and characters that inspired the very personal record.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
This week on in service of We're chatting with Dan
Smith from Bestial about all things history, storytelling and his
latest album, Amber Sand. It's such a beautiful record that
brings historic stories to life in the most human way,
all wrapped up in those signature Bestial melodies.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We love.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Join us as Dan shares what inspired the album and
how he turns history into something so personal and moving.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
For you, where does your love for literature stem from?
Was it something that was early in life? Did you
study quite a bit in school?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
I guess I always loved reading as a bit of
an escape in much the same way as like film
and TV, and I guess journalism, but I studied it
at college, and yeah, it was, you know, as part
of that was lucky enough to I guess, get to
explore the work and lives of loads of really fascinating people.
(01:12):
And yeah, I guess I primarily had wanted to be
a film journalist because I was really fucking lazy in
the idea of watching films all day really appealed to me.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
But I.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
So I went to college to do that, but obviously
fell in love with loads of different authors, and yeah,
I guess for me what was so great about studying
English was this kind of window into different different periods
and different cultures, and that was brilliant. So I've always
kind of had that and loved reading as an escape,
you know, especially on tour, and you know, before the
band took over my life in a bunch of different jobs,
(01:48):
I'd have like quite a long commute across London to
get to work, and I remember just I don't know
it's obvious as anything, but the transportive capacity of books
and of lich to kind of put you in the
mind of somebody else has always been something that I've
really loved.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, and you know, and then escape from the every day.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
But yeah, so with this album, I guess as a songwriter,
I've always really liked using other stories and you know,
moments in history or people that I think are fascinating
or you know, real or fictional as a jumping off
point to start writing a song and as a kind
of a way in to express something that I think
is fascinating or something I want to say. And with
(02:30):
this album, it was really just a case of like
realizing I had a few of these already and I
wanted to kind of formalize it into into the idea
of the album. And I often find I don't know
about usage, but sometimes having having some rules that are
set either by you or someone else can be really
can actually be super inspiring and and and in a way,
(02:54):
even though they're like technically constraints, they're actually really freeing.
And so yeah, this for me, I mean having come
up with the idea of like you know, initially it
was pairs of people. It was like Lenonicoon and Marianne,
it was Bonnie and Clyde, and that I didn't really
want to fall into the trope of like twentieth century
famous couples. So that kind of led me off on
(03:16):
a bit of a path. And I think this was
my first time, you know, we've made concept albums before,
but this was this. This feels like the first time
I've been aware of in my adult life of having
the time and space and freedom to sort of just
just work on this and nothing else. And you know, well,
I say just this on a bunch of different projects,
but without the kind of without touring for you know,
(03:39):
for all of the brilliant, wonderful things of touring, but
also like it ultimately just takes you away from your
life for huge chunks of time, and you know you're
living like in a bus in and amongst your bandmates
and like all those it's kind of it's like a
slightly weird parallel world. So I guess just we finished
touring at the end of last year. I'm also aware
(04:01):
this is the longest answer in the entire world. Love
so sorry. I got home and was kind of like
reacclimatized to life and normality and then just picked up
these songs and just started working on them. Just I
made this most of the album from a demo perspective
at my kitchen table, and it was so nice, Like
I felt like just the luckiest person in the world
(04:21):
to get to get up every day, and as you know,
in my working life and creative life, like all I
already had to do was like choose which song, which
story to pick up.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And kind of just dive into that.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
And it was for me, it felt like, yeah, just
a really happy, chilled, creative time and one that I
guess I'd sort of been slightly fantasizing about for years,
So getting to sort of sit in it for a
bit was brilliant.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I have to ask one quick follow up question before
said starts to but for me, because I have been
a film journalist two part question, do you feel incredibly lucky?
Because I will tell you you're incredibly lucky in twenty
twenty four to not have followed the path of journalism
which is essentially dead. And to you, who would you
(05:16):
what director would you most love to sit down with?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Too great questions. So I think I think.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
My sort of like analytical inquisitive journalist d mind. I'm
not saying like I'm analytical or inquisitive, but that bit.
Always loved looking at films and kind of marveling at
the spectacle of and scale of it and how many
different people had to come together to make this thing happen.
I thought that was kind of really impressive, in the
(05:49):
idea that you could have the best script in the
world and ended up with a really terrible film and
vice versa, And there's there's something in that that's that's
really amazing.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I think for me, songwriting was like.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Just wait, easier, you can do it by yourself, and
and it was a way to kind of create worlds
and escape. But I could just sit at my laptop
with my headphones on and just and create these songs.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So yeah, I guess I guess.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
It's interesting, you know, even in my adult life seeing
seeing the trajectory of journalism and and you know, the
proliferation of different spaces in which people can write, and
the kind of democratization of it. And I guess it's
kind of come in parallel to to like to music
and and and a lot of the creative industries and
how how you know, online life and culture has allowed
(06:35):
so many more people to have access to so much,
but also to participate in so much. And I think,
you know, that's really complicated and obviously in some in
many many ways for the better.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
In some ways some would argue for the worst. But yeah,
I mean it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I think just the age of the age of like
journalist as gatekeeper seems to you know, have faded.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And I guess that's really interesting power shift there.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
I feel like super lucky to get to still create
and make songs. And you know, I'm I'm working on
a bunch of other projects kind of in the film
world and in the TV world as well, which is
you know, I never imagined thinking about myself as a
kind of critic, you know, this like fantasy version of
the critics sitting in the cinema as a kid watching
(07:22):
films all day and writing about them, which I'm sure,
like everything in life, there's like perception versus reality. But yeah,
I guess I feel really fortunate to have wound up
in a spot where like my annoying nerdy curiosity has
allowed me to now get access to that sort of
film world via via songs and via music and via
score and kind of ideas and producing. So that's that's,
(07:45):
you know, that's brilliant. I feel really lucky. And in
terms of directors, that's such a hard question. I think
childhood me was obsessed with Kubrick, and I think adult
me is maybe a bit more aware of in thinking
about these amazing creatives the kind of cost, the cost
that comes with the art they made via like their
personal lives, the people in their lives, the people they
(08:07):
worked with. And I think a slightly more modern thinking
about that would have been, you know, maybe a slightly
difficult conversation about about, you know, whether it's justified to
treat people a certain way in order to achieve great
things in an artistic world or any world for that matter.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So that's into But I guess.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Also, David Lynch is someone who I just like, love
very deeply from a creative perspective, and and and I
was lucky enough to chat to him once. But there's
an absolute shitload of questions that I didn't ask that
I wish I had.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
What about you? Oh go ahead, what about you? Who
would you? Who's who's the who I'm sure you've got.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You've been able to speak to loads of amazing people,
But who's the director you would most want to.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Know?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
That's funny. I've become very good friends at Sagas with
Cameron Crowe, who's one of my closest friends. So he's incredible.
But going to go Chris Stockyzlaski because he made my
favorite film of all time, Read and fascinating, fascinating man.
He decided to retire after Red and died ten days later.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was like his whole world was his work. And
he's like, I'm glad I'm done.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, incredible, really incredible. I
also think it's funny doing this album and and and
you know, doing the podcast that we've done to go
along with it has been so interesting in in just
looking at these people that we really admire and who'd
(09:36):
have done amazing things creatively, scientifically, you know, politically, whatever.
And yeah, I guess trying to pick apart like the
thing that we remember about them or the reputation they
may have from from what daily life actually would have
been like in like, you know, the trials and tribulations
of being being around it that time. You know, perhaps
(10:00):
you know, I think someone like Mary Kiri, like it
was illegal for her to study in Poland because she
was a woman, but she's you know, despite everything she did,
she still had this, obviously, as so many people do,
this kind of complicated love for the place that she
was from and named, you know, named the first element.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That she discovered.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I mean, she discovered an element that's insane, but she
named it after Poland.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And yeah, I don't know. I think our.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Relationship with people's relationship with their work, how much it
defines them, how much they wanted to define them, you know,
if you're lucky enough to have it, have success in
your lifetime, like what that looks like, how it affects
what you make and how you see the word. I
think all those things that's so interesting and that's fascinating.
I didn't know that like ten days. But yeah, I
think it's weird, isn't it? With artists like and obviously
(10:43):
because of a lot of things recently, there's a lot
of conversations around like should it define you? Should it
be the most important thing in her life? Is it
healthy for that to be the case or not? Anyway, Sorry, stage,
I feel like you've not said a word, and I've
just been talking NonStop, so apologies.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Whether it be film, whether it be music, it's all
really the love of storytelling and world making. And what
I find really remarkable is how your music is so
accessible but so deeply profound and explores all of these
kind of out there sometimes very you know, intellectual themes,
but you make them in such a accessible way. Can
(11:20):
you talk about the dichotomy of those things and how
you gather inspiration for making these very human themes both
interesting to one degree and the other.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, I guess. I guess.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
For me, I think I have I need to understand
things to be able to process them. And so if
it's if it's somebody's life or you know that I
didn't that I don't know much about, or you know,
a concept or an idea that that is kind of
interesting to me with challenging, like I sort of have
to understand it. And maybe part of that is, you know,
(12:01):
comes out in wanting it to be not like not
accessible so much.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I think I think with these people in this album,
it was about they're these you know, it's sometimes mysterious
sometimes like very well known sometimes not very well known
characters who did quite amazing things and really pushed against
like the times they were in and the societies they
were in and you know, changed things in a way,
and others who didn't.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I'm just you know, I'm just fascinated by.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
But I think I think it's like it's it's it's
wanting to find like what's the what's the like for me,
the relatable core, like the human element, Like what's the
like the warmth and the intimacy that as a route
in because you know, this album is not meant to
be a history lesson and none of the songs are.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
But I do.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
I love pop music, and my definition of pop music
is very broad, Like you know, I see that as
anything from you know, Simon and Garfunkle through to like
a bunch of classical music right through to you know,
loads of you know, just any I think anything that's
just that's a great song to me counts it under
the umbrella of pop and you know, like Nirvana through
to Frank Ocean, like you know whatever, and and I.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I think there's maybe a perception that you that it
has to be quite simple or like, you know, not
explore interesting ideas.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
But I guess a big part of.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
This band for me, and like this album, which is
kind of a separate thing, has always been about wanting
to sort of pull on threads that I think are
really interesting and maybe slightly less talked about in music
that I've heard. And but that doesn't mean doing it
in a way that's like super pretentious and really inaccessible.
Like I think I want in the music that I'm making,
(13:40):
I want to feel something, you know, That's that's what
I chase. It's if I think it's really beautiful, or
if it's like skee me excited, or if it's making
if it's like hitting a sad nerve in me creatively,
And so I think, you know, part of this. I
had a chat with our manager really early in the process,
and she was like, dude, careful like it's not this
(14:01):
is not a history lesson, Like you don't want to
get like too many facts and figures in there, like
do that, but I don't think you can.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
So I guess it about these songs, Like some of them,
I felt.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Like a massive impost even going anywhere near these stories,
and I was like, what is it about their their
life or their experience that resonates with me or people
in my life, and or what are questions I don't
understand that I want to ask them, like almost back
in time through these songs. And yeah, I guess just
trying to constantly get the kind of the nuanced complexity
(14:31):
of life and of everyone's lives, you know, like even
the greatest people have done fucking terrible things, silly things,
irritating things, you know, everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I don't know, it's easy to forget the sort.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Of peripheral people in and the peripherle and directly immediate
people in the lives of others. So I guess it's that. Really,
it's just try to And sometimes these songs, you know,
read a bunch or watch a bunch or listen to
a bunch of stuff and they kind of fall out.
And other times, you know, I'd really obsessed over over
like a couple the changing of a couple of words
(15:03):
and what that does for the meaning in terms of
how much agency it gives someone, or like you know,
if it makes them passive or active and like all
of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Like I loved that.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
But I think for me, a big part of that
came from going back to writing how it used to write,
which is basically me at my kitchen table, mostly by myself,
because there's no pressure and you're able to sort of
sit with stuff and I don't know, my slightly weird brain,
I feel like I've always got like a bunch of
computer tabs open at all time, So like anything, any
songs I've got ongoing, I'll just be getting on with
(15:34):
life and doing other stuff, and like suddenly I'll be like, oh,
this one, Oh that's how it should go, and that's
the best way to phrase that.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And then I don't know.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
That kind of juggling exercise is when I'm making music
is a kind of constant for me. But yeah, I
think you put it really, really succinctly, And I then
just waffled for a really long time. But yeah, I guess,
I guess, my, my, my main drive is to talk
about real, complex human experiences and things that make me interested.
(16:05):
But that doesn't mean it has to be It doesn't
have to be like pretentious or exclusive. I think because
these are things that affect everyone in it, there should
be a way to talk about them that is like
intellectual and interestingly resonant, but not in a way that's
like going to isolate someone or not feel like anyone
(16:26):
can be part of that conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
One of my favorite things to talk about is how
great writing is subconscious and artists have to talk about
how their channels for something. And the name of this
podcast is in service of and I love how music
is a form of service, especially when you're channeling something
that's good and something that's positive. Can you talk about
channeling these stories as well also channeling the music, and
(17:01):
how that perhaps differed from some of your past albums
that didn't deal with other stories.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, that's a really good that's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And I was reading an interview with Laura Marling recently,
who was talking about that and the way that sometimes
you know, so many songwriters have talked really eloquently about
the idea that sometimes these things just happen, and you
know it's not you know, you could be you know,
you could have like no no sense of spirituality whatsoever.
But there's still that kind of and I think Nick
Cave talks about it brilliantly as well, just that weird
(17:34):
feeling of like the quote unquote muse like running through you.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Or whatever is a really odd thing.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
And I think songwriting is something that to people who
don't write songs seems really like mysterious and almost like
like you're some sort of like wizard. But I think
if you do it, it's just kind of a part
of your brain works. And yeah, I don't know. I
think sometimes sometimes the most interesting things you ever write,
you're like, where the fuck did that come from? And
it's just like pulling on a thread, and others others,
(18:00):
I feel like, feel like quite hard work, but when
it clicks and fits, it's the most.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Satisfying thing in the world.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So yeah, I don't know, really, I think I'm always
fascinating about other people's processes, and I think for me,
for me, it's often the first thing that comes out
that's that's like the best and and then and then
it feels like a kind of like a like a
weird Rubik's cube puzzle, trying to get it to to.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
To work and to fit.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
But I think, yeah, I was always thinking about these
other stories, and sometimes you know, sometimes the first thing
I started singing would would feel right, and then at
other times, you know, I'm really conscious of of the
commonalities I have with these people, but also also like
also the differences and not wanting to speak for anyone
(18:47):
or not on behalf of anyone. So I tried to,
you know, either write from the perspective of someone else
in their life, or write from my perspective now, or
you know, or like if I'm imagining myself as them,
you know, put it in a moment that is that
is based on something that's real, and you know, read
a lot. Tried to absorb as much as I could,
and then yeah, just just not be too ambitious with
(19:08):
like there aren't there's always like in these songs, there's
always a kind of there's like a reason for it.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
A thing I thought was interesting. You know.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
There's there's a song about Shang Yi Sao, this Chinese
pirate queen from from many many years.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Ago, who lots of people know about it, but lots
of people don't.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
And she was like the most successful pirate ever because
she ran this huge piracy empire that was so big
it rivaled the Chinese state. And there's so much in
her life to unpack, you know, not not not not
least the fact that like we know her shen Yi Sao,
which means like wife of shang Yi, and the irony
behind that obviously, and the sexism is is is not
remotely Yeah, it is what it is, and it's it
(19:47):
speaks to the times. But she was she was amazing
and so successful and powerful. But the thing that I
thought was fascinating was that she when challenged sort of
later in her career, she chose to step down and
she stepped away from it or thinking like, you know,
it was her decision, you know, she had agency in that,
and I guess at the time it was kind of
(20:08):
it was. It was a few years ago at a
time where like Jacinda Ardun had stepped down on her
terms and a few other female world leaders had kind
of stepped down on their own terms. And meanwhile, there
were lots of like and continue to be like older
male world leaders really clinging onto power in a way.
(20:28):
And I thought, like, there's so much that's fascinating in
her life and in her story, and you know, I
can never like think to to sort of inhabit her.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So I wrote the.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Song as a series of questions to her, like how
did you manage to with everything stacked against you? Like
how did you manage to do the things you did?
That's so unbelievably incredible. But then also like I don't know,
not not to gender it, but it seemed it just
seemed in the context of what happened in the world
at that time when I was writing the song, a
kind of interestingly potentially female trait to to have the
(20:57):
power to choose when to step away when it's right
for you and not to cling onto it at your
own destruction and at the destruction of others.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And so that was kind of in that that's the
thing that was interesting me.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Sorry, like read and thought about it a bunch, and
that's kind of where that song came from.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
But yeah, I don't know. I feel like.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
In the song intros on the album, I kind of
explore my position in it all because over the course
of the last few years I spoke to like a
bunch of other artists and songwriters and filmmakers who'd work
in documentary, and you know, I guess I was quite
nervous about speaking for or as a lot of these
people that I really admire, who've had you know, very
(21:36):
different lives to me, and I didn't like there's no
sort of arrogance to assumed knowledge there. So I you know,
I wrote intros towards the end of the process to
kind of challenge myself and explore, like, what am I
doing this for? Why am I doing it? If anyone's
to sort of to ask that question or throw the
question to me, I would like direct them to the song,
(21:58):
because it's basically like, even with the best win in
the world, when we tell a story, it's always going
to be filtered via what we know our experiences in
some way consciously or subconsciously, however well we might intend.
And obviously a lot of people telling stories like don't
have good intentions either, So I guess I just wanted
to kind of tackle that head on and explore it
(22:20):
in a song, because that's all I really know how
to do.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Well, before we go too far in another direction, I
will ask quickly because sage to mention the podcast, and
you know, part of the inserve selves. We talk about
giving back, and that is a very broad thing, as
we were talking about with Shepherd yesterday too, because it
could mean charity, it could mean philanthropy. It also very
much is giving back artistically. So for you talk about
(22:48):
giving back, why it's important to you and how it
shapes your work.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Yeah, I guess I maybe don't have like the words
to articulate that. I think for me, I've always wanted
to be as inclusive as possible in our working environment
and you know, try and bring new people through, and
you know, work with lots of other artists and songwriters
and like on this album, the touring that we've been doing,
(23:15):
which is minimal, but has been all with like younger
artists and songwriters that I think are amazing, and we've
kind of built a bit of a supergroup around it
giving back. Yeah, I guess I don't know. Creatively, I
think for me, like anything to do with sort of
charity or philanthropy is like a whole other world. That's
like that is for me pretty private. But yeah, I
(23:37):
think I guess like we have a huge deal of
great fortune in being able to do the thing we
love as a job, and it doesn't come without challenges,
but I think, yeah, I guess for me, it's always
been about like trying to do what I do and
and give back by including other people and trying to
make it a kind of expansive and inclusive process, be
(23:59):
that with the people's we work with, be that kind
of new young talent, like trying to give opportunities as
and when we can. But also, yeah, I guess, just
trying to be as like generous as possible within what
we make and just be as inclusive as.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Possible with it.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I think there are so many you know, there are
some artists for whom they're like, write a certain set
of songs and go out and sing them and that's it.
I'm always someone who's like a bit of a nerd
and really fascinated in all the process. So, you know,
I want the worlds that we make in and in
and around albums to be as kind of rich and
nuanced as possible. And so with this, I guess the
giving back thing is about sharing my excitement around these
(24:35):
people and the things that I've learned, not in a
kind of not in a I don't know, like refined
and separated way, but in like a history doesn't have
to be dry, and you know, it's it's it's real lives.
We just they just feel far away and so they're
easy to kind of cartoonize.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
These these these figures.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
And I think it's about I'm excited by the stuff
that I learned and like probably quite annoy and evangelical
when it comes to stuff that I've found interesting, and
it's you know, I sort of want to share that
as much as possible. So with this album, you know,
not only these The reason that the song names are
so long and pretentious and is because I like, I
want I want to make songs that make me feel
(25:17):
something and hopefully other people will like and think are
beautiful and kind of intermate and raw. But like at
the same time, the titles are therefore to sort of
invite people to go on a deep dive. If they
want to search those names and go down the same
path that I did, that's there for them.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
We did the podcast not because I think the world
needs another podcast that explores history and music and whatever,
but I think it was it was a space to
sort of you know, sit there and platform Emma, who
is a really brilliant and hilarious academic and you know
at her and the researchers who've been you know, who've
worked on this and and who are amazing in their
(25:52):
own in their own working worlds and in their lives,
you know, to sort of find a space to kind
of platform and allow people who do know what they're
talking about to to sort of teach I guess me
and anyone who's listening, and kind of bring everyone along
with that. So, I don't know, I feel like I
feel like, you know, in the music world, in the
sort of artwork world, in and around it, in the
(26:12):
creative world, in the film world and the videos and
the live world, like all of it. It's this project
for me has been about like leaning on people that
I know really well, but also like finding finding new
people who and trying to be as a fan of theirs,
like collaborate with them and kind of you know, try
to try and make the most and celebrate the sort
(26:33):
of the brilliant and creativity of other people.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, I don't know. Does that answer the question?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, no, that's great. There's no right or wrong answer.
It's like anything. But you know, so there is one
second podcast question, and we have teninus left in the meeting.
I know you have another after so I'm gonna ask
this one quickly, and I don't know. Let's say it,
finish it off and this is no biggie, But you know,
what is your purpose in life?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Oh my god, I don't know. I don't fucking know.
I think the older I get, the less I know.
But I feel like I feel like, you know, having
spent ten or eleven years in a band, I feel
like creatively my purpose is, yeah, I think just to
(27:23):
make the best work that I can and to make
sure that the people who would who are collaborating with
me on that are having the best possible time they can.
I think that, like making making music, making art can
be a struggle, but I doesn't have to be. And
within those moments, there's always so important to like have
respect and treat people well in and around you. I
think that's that shouldn't be a hard thing. And so
(27:47):
I guess for me, I get so much out of
being able to make music, like it's it's my favorite thing.
I've come back to it time and time again, and
you know, we've had it times where it's completely taken
over my life and almost I've always come to resent resent,
you know, resented for taking me away from the people
I love and everyone for like for long periods of time,
but also like, in no way ever not hugely grateful
(28:11):
for people that want to like to care about our
songs and come to our shows and want to part
with their time.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's such a nuts thing.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
But you know, equally, trying to get your head around
all those things is not is not necessarily easy.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
So I think I think I just always come back.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
To how happy I am zoning out and just working
on songs, be that stacking up like fifty harmonies, like
it's for me.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
It's like it's like what I do you to switch off?
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Like video games, you know for some people, or it's
like watching a movie or reading a book or I
don't know, playing playing a game. And so that's when
I feel most like calm and at ease. That or
hanging out with my friends. But I don't know if
you can put hanging out with my friends as a
purpose in life. But yeah, I don't know. I guess
I guess it's it's it's really tricky, isn't it. Life
(28:57):
can seem so like big and complicated, important, and then
it can also be massively fleeting. You know, it takes
someone that you care about, like suddenly just going for
you to try and reassess everything.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
I think it's it's like to think that I guess
my purpose is I don't. I feel like quite settled
in the fact that I'm making music and writing songs,
even if I'm not the artist. Is like, it's just
a thing that I can do anything that I love,
and like I get huge satisfaction from that.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Well very quickly before stage. It's yes, you can say
hanging out with your friends is your purpose in life? Again,
there's no right or wrong answer, but I don't know.
It is a great answer too, because it's honest.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
So yeah, I should have just left it at that,
and the post amble I could we could done without.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
No, it's all good, but yeah, say whatever you want.
There's no right or wrong and yeah, well there you go.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
It's so heartwarming how you synthesize things and just the
humility just teams off of you. How you champion other artists,
and how you are in service of the music and
you're in service of the story. I think that's a
brilliant way to be in service. I was curious, what
the initial speed or the initial song that springboarded this
whole project that you created for this this album.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
That's what there's there's I guess there's like a few answers,
and I'll try and do them quickly, but I think
the first I watched a film called Words of Love
Marie Anne and Leonard, which is about Leonard Cohen and
Marianne Ilhan who's like was his partner and friend and muse.
I watched it during lockdown and started writing the song
Leonard and Marie Anne that's on the album because I
(30:38):
was really fascinated by their relationship and the dynamic of
that and you know, the idea that they had this
relationship in Greece and then he in that time became
you know, the Lenon Cone that we know and the
kind of pop star of the time, and the toll
that took on their relationship, and I guess, yeah, just
the people that get caught up in the wake of success,
you know, in and around people who happens to and
(30:59):
obviously his like amazing art and poetry, and so.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
That was kind of the first one.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
I also had a song about Bonnie and Clyde because
I was just so interested in the idea that like,
underneath the legend of those people, that sort of media
narrative about them was coexisted with their actual lives, which
were very different and much more kind of like gritty
and grubby, and like, you know, they grew up in
the dust and they were like holding up dime stores.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Like it wasn't this sort of Hollywood version of things.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
And how surreal that must have been to have been
living your life and you know, in love and committing
those crimes, but also seeing this kind of parallel version
of you that wasn't real be perpetuated around the world.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Like I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
So those two songs, I guess were the first that
came and sort of before I knew what this album was.
But there's a song on the album called Telegraph Road
nineteen seventy seven and twenty twenty four, which is the
closing track of the album, which actually my mom and
dad from South Africa and before they moved to the
UK after college, they traveled across the US for a
year and my dad must have written some like notes
(32:00):
and some poetry.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
He's not a poet, but.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
He gave them to me when I was like fourteen
fifteen and started writing songs and I didn't really have
much to say, and he was like, hey, I've got.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
These poems when I have looked through them.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
So there was a song about this woman that he
saw and met in San Francisco, you know, way back
in the late seventies, and I turned it into I
turned it into a song, and it became this song
Telegraph Road that when I was making this album, I
thought back to and I brought it back, and rewrote
it and I wrote, and I wrote a kind of
final verse that's me now, kind of looking at the
idea of singing my dad's words and how little has
(32:32):
changed when it comes to the unhouse population in San Francisco. Yeah,
and my mum sings backing vocals because she was a
focusing it at UNI. She paid her way through UNI
playing folk gigs and she was kind of the only
singer I knew when I was fourteen, So she sung
back in vocals. Then I she sings backing vocals now,
and that's yeah. So it's kind of it's weird. Even
though I wanted to make an album of other people,
it's kind of wound up being some of the most
(32:53):
personal work I've ever made, you know, between intros and
that and kind of I guess reckoning with my place
in music is and if I belong here or not,
and and if if I should be doing it or not.
And like this thing that I love but also at
times feels kind of torturous and you know, imposter syndrome,
all of that stuff, but E could I feel like
it's it's led me to like my best my best
(33:16):
work h
This week on in service of We're chatting with Dan
Smith from Bestial about all things history, storytelling and his
latest album, Amber Sand. It's such a beautiful record that
brings historic stories to life in the most human way,
all wrapped up in those signature Bestial melodies.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
We love.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
Join us as Dan shares what inspired the album and
how he turns history into something so personal and moving.
Speaker 3 (00:40):
For you, where does your love for literature stem from?
Was it something that was early in life? Did you
study quite a bit in school?
Speaker 2 (00:48):
Yeah, good question.
Speaker 4 (00:49):
I guess I always loved reading as a bit of
an escape in much the same way as like film
and TV, and I guess journalism, but I studied it
at college, and yeah, it was, you know, as part
of that was lucky enough to I guess, get to
explore the work and lives of loads of really fascinating people.
(01:12):
And yeah, I guess I primarily had wanted to be
a film journalist because I was really fucking lazy in
the idea of watching films all day really appealed to me.
Speaker 2 (01:24):
But I.
Speaker 4 (01:26):
So I went to college to do that, but obviously
fell in love with loads of different authors, and yeah,
I guess for me what was so great about studying
English was this kind of window into different different periods
and different cultures, and that was brilliant. So I've always
kind of had that and loved reading as an escape,
you know, especially on tour, and you know, before the
band took over my life in a bunch of different jobs,
(01:48):
I'd have like quite a long commute across London to
get to work, and I remember just I don't know
it's obvious as anything, but the transportive capacity of books
and of lich to kind of put you in the
mind of somebody else has always been something that I've
really loved.
Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah, and you know, and then escape from the every day.
Speaker 4 (02:09):
But yeah, so with this album, I guess as a songwriter,
I've always really liked using other stories and you know,
moments in history or people that I think are fascinating
or you know, real or fictional as a jumping off
point to start writing a song and as a kind
of a way in to express something that I think
is fascinating or something I want to say. And with
(02:30):
this album, it was really just a case of like
realizing I had a few of these already and I
wanted to kind of formalize it into into the idea
of the album. And I often find I don't know
about usage, but sometimes having having some rules that are
set either by you or someone else can be really
can actually be super inspiring and and and in a way,
(02:54):
even though they're like technically constraints, they're actually really freeing.
And so yeah, this for me, I mean having come
up with the idea of like you know, initially it
was pairs of people. It was like Lenonicoon and Marianne,
it was Bonnie and Clyde, and that I didn't really
want to fall into the trope of like twentieth century
famous couples. So that kind of led me off on
(03:16):
a bit of a path. And I think this was
my first time, you know, we've made concept albums before,
but this was this. This feels like the first time
I've been aware of in my adult life of having
the time and space and freedom to sort of just
just work on this and nothing else. And you know, well,
I say just this on a bunch of different projects,
but without the kind of without touring for you know,
(03:39):
for all of the brilliant, wonderful things of touring, but
also like it ultimately just takes you away from your
life for huge chunks of time, and you know you're
living like in a bus in and amongst your bandmates
and like all those it's kind of it's like a
slightly weird parallel world. So I guess just we finished
touring at the end of last year. I'm also aware
(04:01):
this is the longest answer in the entire world. Love
so sorry. I got home and was kind of like
reacclimatized to life and normality and then just picked up
these songs and just started working on them. Just I
made this most of the album from a demo perspective
at my kitchen table, and it was so nice, Like
I felt like just the luckiest person in the world
(04:21):
to get to get up every day, and as you know,
in my working life and creative life, like all I
already had to do was like choose which song, which
story to pick up.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
And kind of just dive into that.
Speaker 4 (04:34):
And it was for me, it felt like, yeah, just
a really happy, chilled, creative time and one that I
guess I'd sort of been slightly fantasizing about for years,
So getting to sort of sit in it for a
bit was brilliant.
Speaker 3 (04:50):
I have to ask one quick follow up question before
said starts to but for me, because I have been
a film journalist two part question, do you feel incredibly lucky?
Because I will tell you you're incredibly lucky in twenty
twenty four to not have followed the path of journalism
which is essentially dead. And to you, who would you
(05:16):
what director would you most love to sit down with?
Speaker 2 (05:22):
Too great questions. So I think I think.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
My sort of like analytical inquisitive journalist d mind. I'm
not saying like I'm analytical or inquisitive, but that bit.
Always loved looking at films and kind of marveling at
the spectacle of and scale of it and how many
different people had to come together to make this thing happen.
I thought that was kind of really impressive, in the
(05:49):
idea that you could have the best script in the
world and ended up with a really terrible film and
vice versa, And there's there's something in that that's that's
really amazing.
Speaker 2 (05:56):
I think for me, songwriting was like.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Just wait, easier, you can do it by yourself, and
and it was a way to kind of create worlds
and escape. But I could just sit at my laptop
with my headphones on and just and create these songs.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
So yeah, I guess I guess.
Speaker 4 (06:13):
It's interesting, you know, even in my adult life seeing
seeing the trajectory of journalism and and you know, the
proliferation of different spaces in which people can write, and
the kind of democratization of it. And I guess it's
kind of come in parallel to to like to music
and and and a lot of the creative industries and
how how you know, online life and culture has allowed
(06:35):
so many more people to have access to so much,
but also to participate in so much. And I think,
you know, that's really complicated and obviously in some in
many many ways for the better.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
In some ways some would argue for the worst. But yeah,
I mean it's interesting.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I think just the age of the age of like
journalist as gatekeeper seems to you know, have faded.
Speaker 2 (06:58):
And I guess that's really interesting power shift there.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
I feel like super lucky to get to still create
and make songs. And you know, I'm I'm working on
a bunch of other projects kind of in the film
world and in the TV world as well, which is
you know, I never imagined thinking about myself as a
kind of critic, you know, this like fantasy version of
the critics sitting in the cinema as a kid watching
(07:22):
films all day and writing about them, which I'm sure,
like everything in life, there's like perception versus reality. But yeah,
I guess I feel really fortunate to have wound up
in a spot where like my annoying nerdy curiosity has
allowed me to now get access to that sort of
film world via via songs and via music and via
score and kind of ideas and producing. So that's that's,
(07:45):
you know, that's brilliant. I feel really lucky. And in
terms of directors, that's such a hard question. I think
childhood me was obsessed with Kubrick, and I think adult
me is maybe a bit more aware of in thinking
about these amazing creatives the kind of cost, the cost
that comes with the art they made via like their
personal lives, the people in their lives, the people they
(08:07):
worked with. And I think a slightly more modern thinking
about that would have been, you know, maybe a slightly
difficult conversation about about, you know, whether it's justified to
treat people a certain way in order to achieve great
things in an artistic world or any world for that matter.
Speaker 2 (08:23):
So that's into But I guess.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
Also, David Lynch is someone who I just like, love
very deeply from a creative perspective, and and and I
was lucky enough to chat to him once. But there's
an absolute shitload of questions that I didn't ask that
I wish I had.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
What about you? Oh go ahead, what about you? Who
would you? Who's who's the who I'm sure you've got.
Speaker 4 (08:43):
You've been able to speak to loads of amazing people,
But who's the director you would most want to.
Speaker 1 (08:49):
Know?
Speaker 3 (08:49):
That's funny. I've become very good friends at Sagas with
Cameron Crowe, who's one of my closest friends. So he's incredible.
But going to go Chris Stockyzlaski because he made my
favorite film of all time, Read and fascinating, fascinating man.
He decided to retire after Red and died ten days later.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
It was like his whole world was his work. And
he's like, I'm glad I'm done.
Speaker 4 (09:16):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, yeah, yeah, incredible, really incredible. I
also think it's funny doing this album and and and
you know, doing the podcast that we've done to go
along with it has been so interesting in in just
looking at these people that we really admire and who'd
(09:36):
have done amazing things creatively, scientifically, you know, politically, whatever.
And yeah, I guess trying to pick apart like the
thing that we remember about them or the reputation they
may have from from what daily life actually would have
been like in like, you know, the trials and tribulations
of being being around it that time. You know, perhaps
(10:00):
you know, I think someone like Mary Kiri, like it
was illegal for her to study in Poland because she
was a woman, but she's you know, despite everything she did,
she still had this, obviously, as so many people do,
this kind of complicated love for the place that she
was from and named, you know, named the first element.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
That she discovered.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
I mean, she discovered an element that's insane, but she
named it after Poland.
Speaker 2 (10:19):
And yeah, I don't know. I think our.
Speaker 4 (10:23):
Relationship with people's relationship with their work, how much it
defines them, how much they wanted to define them, you know,
if you're lucky enough to have it, have success in
your lifetime, like what that looks like, how it affects
what you make and how you see the word. I
think all those things that's so interesting and that's fascinating.
I didn't know that like ten days. But yeah, I
think it's weird, isn't it? With artists like and obviously
(10:43):
because of a lot of things recently, there's a lot
of conversations around like should it define you? Should it
be the most important thing in her life? Is it
healthy for that to be the case or not? Anyway, Sorry, stage,
I feel like you've not said a word, and I've
just been talking NonStop, so apologies.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
Whether it be film, whether it be music, it's all
really the love of storytelling and world making. And what
I find really remarkable is how your music is so
accessible but so deeply profound and explores all of these
kind of out there sometimes very you know, intellectual themes,
but you make them in such a accessible way. Can
(11:20):
you talk about the dichotomy of those things and how
you gather inspiration for making these very human themes both
interesting to one degree and the other.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Yeah, I guess. I guess.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
For me, I think I have I need to understand
things to be able to process them. And so if
it's if it's somebody's life or you know that I
didn't that I don't know much about, or you know,
a concept or an idea that that is kind of
interesting to me with challenging, like I sort of have
to understand it. And maybe part of that is, you know,
(12:01):
comes out in wanting it to be not like not
accessible so much.
Speaker 2 (12:06):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (12:07):
I think I think with these people in this album,
it was about they're these you know, it's sometimes mysterious
sometimes like very well known sometimes not very well known
characters who did quite amazing things and really pushed against
like the times they were in and the societies they
were in and you know, changed things in a way,
and others who didn't.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
I'm just you know, I'm just fascinated by.
Speaker 4 (12:28):
But I think I think it's like it's it's it's
wanting to find like what's the what's the like for me,
the relatable core, like the human element, Like what's the
like the warmth and the intimacy that as a route
in because you know, this album is not meant to
be a history lesson and none of the songs are.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
But I do.
Speaker 4 (12:46):
I love pop music, and my definition of pop music
is very broad, Like you know, I see that as
anything from you know, Simon and Garfunkle through to like
a bunch of classical music right through to you know,
loads of you know, just any I think anything that's
just that's a great song to me counts it under
the umbrella of pop and you know, like Nirvana through
to Frank Ocean, like you know whatever, and and I.
Speaker 2 (13:09):
But I don't know.
Speaker 4 (13:11):
I think there's maybe a perception that you that it
has to be quite simple or like, you know, not
explore interesting ideas.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
But I guess a big part of.
Speaker 4 (13:20):
This band for me, and like this album, which is
kind of a separate thing, has always been about wanting
to sort of pull on threads that I think are
really interesting and maybe slightly less talked about in music
that I've heard. And but that doesn't mean doing it
in a way that's like super pretentious and really inaccessible.
Like I think I want in the music that I'm making,
(13:40):
I want to feel something, you know, That's that's what
I chase. It's if I think it's really beautiful, or
if it's like skee me excited, or if it's making
if it's like hitting a sad nerve in me creatively,
And so I think, you know, part of this. I
had a chat with our manager really early in the process,
and she was like, dude, careful like it's not this
(14:01):
is not a history lesson, Like you don't want to
get like too many facts and figures in there, like
do that, but I don't think you can.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
So I guess it about these songs, Like some of them,
I felt.
Speaker 4 (14:10):
Like a massive impost even going anywhere near these stories,
and I was like, what is it about their their
life or their experience that resonates with me or people
in my life, and or what are questions I don't
understand that I want to ask them, like almost back
in time through these songs. And yeah, I guess just
trying to constantly get the kind of the nuanced complexity
(14:31):
of life and of everyone's lives, you know, like even
the greatest people have done fucking terrible things, silly things,
irritating things, you know, everyone.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
I don't know, it's easy to forget the sort.
Speaker 4 (14:42):
Of peripheral people in and the peripherle and directly immediate
people in the lives of others. So I guess it's that. Really,
it's just try to And sometimes these songs, you know,
read a bunch or watch a bunch or listen to
a bunch of stuff and they kind of fall out.
And other times, you know, I'd really obsessed over over
like a couple the changing of a couple of words
(15:03):
and what that does for the meaning in terms of
how much agency it gives someone, or like you know,
if it makes them passive or active and like all
of that stuff.
Speaker 2 (15:11):
Like I loved that.
Speaker 4 (15:13):
But I think for me, a big part of that
came from going back to writing how it used to write,
which is basically me at my kitchen table, mostly by myself,
because there's no pressure and you're able to sort of
sit with stuff and I don't know, my slightly weird brain,
I feel like I've always got like a bunch of
computer tabs open at all time, So like anything, any
songs I've got ongoing, I'll just be getting on with
(15:34):
life and doing other stuff, and like suddenly I'll be like, oh,
this one, Oh that's how it should go, and that's
the best way to phrase that.
Speaker 2 (15:40):
And then I don't know.
Speaker 4 (15:41):
That kind of juggling exercise is when I'm making music
is a kind of constant for me. But yeah, I
think you put it really, really succinctly, And I then
just waffled for a really long time. But yeah, I guess,
I guess, my, my, my main drive is to talk
about real, complex human experiences and things that make me interested.
(16:05):
But that doesn't mean it has to be It doesn't
have to be like pretentious or exclusive. I think because
these are things that affect everyone in it, there should
be a way to talk about them that is like
intellectual and interestingly resonant, but not in a way that's
like going to isolate someone or not feel like anyone
(16:26):
can be part of that conversation.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
One of my favorite things to talk about is how
great writing is subconscious and artists have to talk about
how their channels for something. And the name of this
podcast is in service of and I love how music
is a form of service, especially when you're channeling something
that's good and something that's positive. Can you talk about
channeling these stories as well also channeling the music, and
(17:01):
how that perhaps differed from some of your past albums
that didn't deal with other stories.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Yeah, that's a really good that's a really good question.
Speaker 4 (17:10):
And I was reading an interview with Laura Marling recently,
who was talking about that and the way that sometimes
you know, so many songwriters have talked really eloquently about
the idea that sometimes these things just happen, and you
know it's not you know, you could be you know,
you could have like no no sense of spirituality whatsoever.
But there's still that kind of and I think Nick
Cave talks about it brilliantly as well, just that weird
(17:34):
feeling of like the quote unquote muse like running through you.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Or whatever is a really odd thing.
Speaker 4 (17:39):
And I think songwriting is something that to people who
don't write songs seems really like mysterious and almost like
like you're some sort of like wizard. But I think
if you do it, it's just kind of a part
of your brain works. And yeah, I don't know. I
think sometimes sometimes the most interesting things you ever write,
you're like, where the fuck did that come from? And
it's just like pulling on a thread, and others others,
(18:00):
I feel like, feel like quite hard work, but when
it clicks and fits, it's the most.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Satisfying thing in the world.
Speaker 4 (18:07):
So yeah, I don't know, really, I think I'm always
fascinating about other people's processes, and I think for me,
for me, it's often the first thing that comes out
that's that's like the best and and then and then
it feels like a kind of like a like a
weird Rubik's cube puzzle, trying to get it to to.
Speaker 2 (18:26):
To work and to fit.
Speaker 4 (18:27):
But I think, yeah, I was always thinking about these
other stories, and sometimes you know, sometimes the first thing
I started singing would would feel right, and then at
other times, you know, I'm really conscious of of the
commonalities I have with these people, but also also like
also the differences and not wanting to speak for anyone
(18:47):
or not on behalf of anyone. So I tried to,
you know, either write from the perspective of someone else
in their life, or write from my perspective now, or
you know, or like if I'm imagining myself as them,
you know, put it in a moment that is that
is based on something that's real, and you know, read
a lot. Tried to absorb as much as I could,
and then yeah, just just not be too ambitious with
(19:08):
like there aren't there's always like in these songs, there's
always a kind of there's like a reason for it.
Speaker 2 (19:14):
A thing I thought was interesting. You know.
Speaker 4 (19:16):
There's there's a song about Shang Yi Sao, this Chinese
pirate queen from from many many years.
Speaker 2 (19:22):
Ago, who lots of people know about it, but lots
of people don't.
Speaker 4 (19:25):
And she was like the most successful pirate ever because
she ran this huge piracy empire that was so big
it rivaled the Chinese state. And there's so much in
her life to unpack, you know, not not not not
least the fact that like we know her shen Yi Sao,
which means like wife of shang Yi, and the irony
behind that obviously, and the sexism is is is not
remotely Yeah, it is what it is, and it's it
(19:47):
speaks to the times. But she was she was amazing
and so successful and powerful. But the thing that I
thought was fascinating was that she when challenged sort of
later in her career, she chose to step down and
she stepped away from it or thinking like, you know,
it was her decision, you know, she had agency in that,
and I guess at the time it was kind of
(20:08):
it was. It was a few years ago at a
time where like Jacinda Ardun had stepped down on her
terms and a few other female world leaders had kind
of stepped down on their own terms. And meanwhile, there
were lots of like and continue to be like older
male world leaders really clinging onto power in a way.
(20:28):
And I thought, like, there's so much that's fascinating in
her life and in her story, and you know, I
can never like think to to sort of inhabit her.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So I wrote the.
Speaker 4 (20:37):
Song as a series of questions to her, like how
did you manage to with everything stacked against you? Like
how did you manage to do the things you did?
That's so unbelievably incredible. But then also like I don't know,
not not to gender it, but it seemed it just
seemed in the context of what happened in the world
at that time when I was writing the song, a
kind of interestingly potentially female trait to to have the
(20:57):
power to choose when to step away when it's right
for you and not to cling onto it at your
own destruction and at the destruction of others.
Speaker 2 (21:04):
And so that was kind of in that that's the
thing that was interesting me.
Speaker 4 (21:07):
Sorry, like read and thought about it a bunch, and
that's kind of where that song came from.
Speaker 2 (21:11):
But yeah, I don't know. I feel like.
Speaker 4 (21:15):
In the song intros on the album, I kind of
explore my position in it all because over the course
of the last few years I spoke to like a
bunch of other artists and songwriters and filmmakers who'd work
in documentary, and you know, I guess I was quite
nervous about speaking for or as a lot of these
people that I really admire, who've had you know, very
(21:36):
different lives to me, and I didn't like there's no
sort of arrogance to assumed knowledge there. So I you know,
I wrote intros towards the end of the process to
kind of challenge myself and explore, like, what am I
doing this for? Why am I doing it? If anyone's
to sort of to ask that question or throw the
question to me, I would like direct them to the song,
(21:58):
because it's basically like, even with the best win in
the world, when we tell a story, it's always going
to be filtered via what we know our experiences in
some way consciously or subconsciously, however well we might intend.
And obviously a lot of people telling stories like don't
have good intentions either, So I guess I just wanted
to kind of tackle that head on and explore it
(22:20):
in a song, because that's all I really know how
to do.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
Interesting.
Speaker 3 (22:25):
Well, before we go too far in another direction, I
will ask quickly because sage to mention the podcast, and
you know, part of the inserve selves. We talk about
giving back, and that is a very broad thing, as
we were talking about with Shepherd yesterday too, because it
could mean charity, it could mean philanthropy. It also very
much is giving back artistically. So for you talk about
(22:48):
giving back, why it's important to you and how it
shapes your work.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
Yeah, I guess I maybe don't have like the words
to articulate that. I think for me, I've always wanted
to be as inclusive as possible in our working environment
and you know, try and bring new people through, and
you know, work with lots of other artists and songwriters
and like on this album, the touring that we've been doing,
(23:15):
which is minimal, but has been all with like younger
artists and songwriters that I think are amazing, and we've
kind of built a bit of a supergroup around it
giving back. Yeah, I guess I don't know. Creatively, I
think for me, like anything to do with sort of
charity or philanthropy is like a whole other world. That's
like that is for me pretty private. But yeah, I
(23:37):
think I guess like we have a huge deal of
great fortune in being able to do the thing we
love as a job, and it doesn't come without challenges,
but I think, yeah, I guess for me, it's always
been about like trying to do what I do and
and give back by including other people and trying to
make it a kind of expansive and inclusive process, be
(23:59):
that with the people's we work with, be that kind
of new young talent, like trying to give opportunities as
and when we can. But also, yeah, I guess, just
trying to be as like generous as possible within what
we make and just be as inclusive as.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Possible with it.
Speaker 4 (24:13):
I think there are so many you know, there are
some artists for whom they're like, write a certain set
of songs and go out and sing them and that's it.
I'm always someone who's like a bit of a nerd
and really fascinated in all the process. So, you know,
I want the worlds that we make in and in
and around albums to be as kind of rich and
nuanced as possible. And so with this, I guess the
giving back thing is about sharing my excitement around these
(24:35):
people and the things that I've learned, not in a
kind of not in a I don't know, like refined
and separated way, but in like a history doesn't have
to be dry, and you know, it's it's it's real lives.
We just they just feel far away and so they're
easy to kind of cartoonize.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
These these these figures.
Speaker 4 (24:55):
And I think it's about I'm excited by the stuff
that I learned and like probably quite annoy and evangelical
when it comes to stuff that I've found interesting, and
it's you know, I sort of want to share that
as much as possible. So with this album, you know,
not only these The reason that the song names are
so long and pretentious and is because I like, I
want I want to make songs that make me feel
(25:17):
something and hopefully other people will like and think are
beautiful and kind of intermate and raw. But like at
the same time, the titles are therefore to sort of
invite people to go on a deep dive. If they
want to search those names and go down the same
path that I did, that's there for them.
Speaker 2 (25:31):
You know.
Speaker 4 (25:31):
We did the podcast not because I think the world
needs another podcast that explores history and music and whatever,
but I think it was it was a space to
sort of you know, sit there and platform Emma, who
is a really brilliant and hilarious academic and you know
at her and the researchers who've been you know, who've
worked on this and and who are amazing in their
(25:52):
own in their own working worlds and in their lives,
you know, to sort of find a space to kind
of platform and allow people who do know what they're
talking about to to sort of teach I guess me
and anyone who's listening, and kind of bring everyone along
with that. So, I don't know, I feel like I
feel like, you know, in the music world, in the
sort of artwork world, in and around it, in the
(26:12):
creative world, in the film world and the videos and
the live world, like all of it. It's this project
for me has been about like leaning on people that
I know really well, but also like finding finding new
people who and trying to be as a fan of theirs,
like collaborate with them and kind of you know, try
to try and make the most and celebrate the sort
(26:33):
of the brilliant and creativity of other people.
Speaker 2 (26:36):
Yeah, I don't know. Does that answer the question?
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Yeah, no, that's great. There's no right or wrong answer.
It's like anything. But you know, so there is one
second podcast question, and we have teninus left in the meeting.
I know you have another after so I'm gonna ask
this one quickly, and I don't know. Let's say it,
finish it off and this is no biggie, But you know,
what is your purpose in life?
Speaker 4 (27:01):
Oh my god, I don't know. I don't fucking know.
I think the older I get, the less I know.
But I feel like I feel like, you know, having
spent ten or eleven years in a band, I feel
like creatively my purpose is, yeah, I think just to
(27:23):
make the best work that I can and to make
sure that the people who would who are collaborating with
me on that are having the best possible time they can.
I think that, like making making music, making art can
be a struggle, but I doesn't have to be. And
within those moments, there's always so important to like have
respect and treat people well in and around you. I
think that's that shouldn't be a hard thing. And so
(27:47):
I guess for me, I get so much out of
being able to make music, like it's it's my favorite thing.
I've come back to it time and time again, and
you know, we've had it times where it's completely taken
over my life and almost I've always come to resent resent,
you know, resented for taking me away from the people
I love and everyone for like for long periods of time,
but also like, in no way ever not hugely grateful
(28:11):
for people that want to like to care about our
songs and come to our shows and want to part
with their time.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
That's such a nuts thing.
Speaker 4 (28:19):
But you know, equally, trying to get your head around
all those things is not is not necessarily easy.
Speaker 2 (28:25):
So I think I think I just always come back.
Speaker 4 (28:27):
To how happy I am zoning out and just working
on songs, be that stacking up like fifty harmonies, like
it's for me.
Speaker 2 (28:34):
It's like it's like what I do you to switch off?
Speaker 4 (28:36):
Like video games, you know for some people, or it's
like watching a movie or reading a book or I
don't know, playing playing a game. And so that's when
I feel most like calm and at ease. That or
hanging out with my friends. But I don't know if
you can put hanging out with my friends as a
purpose in life. But yeah, I don't know. I guess
I guess it's it's it's really tricky, isn't it. Life
(28:57):
can seem so like big and complicated, important, and then
it can also be massively fleeting. You know, it takes
someone that you care about, like suddenly just going for
you to try and reassess everything.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
So I don't know.
Speaker 4 (29:09):
I think it's it's like to think that I guess
my purpose is I don't. I feel like quite settled
in the fact that I'm making music and writing songs,
even if I'm not the artist. Is like, it's just
a thing that I can do anything that I love,
and like I get huge satisfaction from that.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Well very quickly before stage. It's yes, you can say
hanging out with your friends is your purpose in life? Again,
there's no right or wrong answer, but I don't know.
It is a great answer too, because it's honest.
Speaker 4 (29:39):
So yeah, I should have just left it at that,
and the post amble I could we could done without.
Speaker 3 (29:44):
No, it's all good, but yeah, say whatever you want.
There's no right or wrong and yeah, well there you go.
Speaker 1 (29:52):
It's so heartwarming how you synthesize things and just the
humility just teams off of you. How you champion other artists,
and how you are in service of the music and
you're in service of the story. I think that's a
brilliant way to be in service. I was curious, what
the initial speed or the initial song that springboarded this
whole project that you created for this this album.
Speaker 4 (30:18):
That's what there's there's I guess there's like a few answers,
and I'll try and do them quickly, but I think
the first I watched a film called Words of Love
Marie Anne and Leonard, which is about Leonard Cohen and
Marianne Ilhan who's like was his partner and friend and muse.
I watched it during lockdown and started writing the song
Leonard and Marie Anne that's on the album because I
(30:38):
was really fascinated by their relationship and the dynamic of
that and you know, the idea that they had this
relationship in Greece and then he in that time became
you know, the Lenon Cone that we know and the
kind of pop star of the time, and the toll
that took on their relationship, and I guess, yeah, just
the people that get caught up in the wake of success,
you know, in and around people who happens to and
(30:59):
obviously his like amazing art and poetry, and so.
Speaker 2 (31:02):
That was kind of the first one.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
I also had a song about Bonnie and Clyde because
I was just so interested in the idea that like,
underneath the legend of those people, that sort of media
narrative about them was coexisted with their actual lives, which
were very different and much more kind of like gritty
and grubby, and like, you know, they grew up in
the dust and they were like holding up dime stores.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
Like it wasn't this sort of Hollywood version of things.
Speaker 4 (31:25):
And how surreal that must have been to have been
living your life and you know, in love and committing
those crimes, but also seeing this kind of parallel version
of you that wasn't real be perpetuated around the world.
Speaker 2 (31:38):
Like I thought that was really interesting.
Speaker 4 (31:40):
So those two songs, I guess were the first that
came and sort of before I knew what this album was.
But there's a song on the album called Telegraph Road
nineteen seventy seven and twenty twenty four, which is the
closing track of the album, which actually my mom and
dad from South Africa and before they moved to the
UK after college, they traveled across the US for a
year and my dad must have written some like notes
(32:00):
and some poetry.
Speaker 2 (32:01):
He's not a poet, but.
Speaker 4 (32:04):
He gave them to me when I was like fourteen
fifteen and started writing songs and I didn't really have
much to say, and he was like, hey, I've got.
Speaker 2 (32:10):
These poems when I have looked through them.
Speaker 4 (32:11):
So there was a song about this woman that he
saw and met in San Francisco, you know, way back
in the late seventies, and I turned it into I
turned it into a song, and it became this song
Telegraph Road that when I was making this album, I
thought back to and I brought it back, and rewrote
it and I wrote, and I wrote a kind of
final verse that's me now, kind of looking at the
idea of singing my dad's words and how little has
(32:32):
changed when it comes to the unhouse population in San Francisco. Yeah,
and my mum sings backing vocals because she was a
focusing it at UNI. She paid her way through UNI
playing folk gigs and she was kind of the only
singer I knew when I was fourteen, So she sung
back in vocals. Then I she sings backing vocals now,
and that's yeah. So it's kind of it's weird. Even
though I wanted to make an album of other people,
it's kind of wound up being some of the most
(32:53):
personal work I've ever made, you know, between intros and
that and kind of I guess reckoning with my place
in music is and if I belong here or not,
and and if if I should be doing it or not.
And like this thing that I love but also at
times feels kind of torturous and you know, imposter syndrome,
all of that stuff, but E could I feel like
it's it's led me to like my best my best
(33:16):
work h
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