June 25, 2025 • 35 mins
On this week's In Service Of artist/songwriter/entrepreneur Julia Michaels joins hosts Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to discuss songwriting, being a label head and the power of f**k off.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
All right, it's Steve Balton and this week's in the
Service of Stays Bobin and I have a great conversation
with Julia Michaels about songwriting, the power of fuck off,
and so much more. This is a really fun, engaging,
enjoyable conversation, so I hope you enjoy this one as
much as media. Thanks. Cool. So how's it going today.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It's going good. It's going good.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Just about to start my day after this, I'm gonna
go do a session and I leave. I'm actually leaving
for a while and taking a little brain break for
a second.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Very cool. I mean, it's fun with all the stuff
you have going on. Do you feel like, you know,
those brain breaks recharge you or do you kind of lose.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Momentum recharge for sure?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
You know, I write songs five days a week. I
take my weekends off just so I can be a
human being. But I'm writing all the time. And I
think it was really last year when I realized that
I was just kind of I didn't love being in
La It's so hot, everyone's on tour, so writing just
felt so bleak.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I was so depressed, and I was like, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Going to do this next summer, and so I've decided
to just go breathe. And I find like boredom for
me is really inspiring. I feel like I think up
things differently, or because I just have time to have
space from this whole process.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's really interesting though, that you say you write five
days a week but take week ends off again stage
and I have talked to everyone in the world, from
like Jimmy Cliff to Mike Stoler to Willie Nelson about
the songwriting process. Everybody says the same thing. Of course,
you can't really control it. Your antenna's up and stuff
comes to you. So if you're on the weekend and
you get the idea for like fucking God only knows
(02:17):
what do you do. Do you just say no, I'm
not doing it, or do you just run to the
you know, wherever you're going.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
No.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I mean, obviously, if you have a well.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It's it rarely runs dry. If you have a creative well,
it rarely runs dry. But you know, like I'll be
in the shower at night and I'll think about something
and I'm like, oh, that's a great song, and if
it is strong enough, it'll make it through my week
somehow all it'll be the song I write on a
Tuesday or a Wednesday. But I'm not like hustling to
(02:48):
the studio on the weekend. I've been doing this since
I was sixteen. I used to do doubles, triples, you know,
kill myself. And then I realized one day that I
was like, this is just it's me. I'm stressed, I'm
having panic attacks, like I'm not mentally found, and I'm
killing myself for songs.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Like that's crazy. I love music, I love what I do.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I'm so in love with what I do. But there
has to be a balance. You cannot live and die
by the studio.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Yeah, it's so interesting to hear people's processes and like
these rituals that they make for themselves to deter from
from that anxiety that you know in the fast moving
industry that it is, and now that you wear all
of these different hats, I imagine that you know, creating
these spaces for yourself really helps you in the creative flow.
(03:44):
So it's curious, when you're doing this brain break or
within being creative, do you have rituals that you've really
toned in for yourself that have helped you.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
No, I wouldn't say I have any rituals. I would
say that I just like try to live as much
as I can while I can.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
And you know, being on the street can spark an idea,
a conversation can spark an idea.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Something I read can spark an idea.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So it really doesn't matter what I'm doing, how long
I'm doing it.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You know, I could see one thing and be like, yeah,
that's a song.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Is there one thing?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Though?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
I was just gonna ask, like, you know, in all
of the different lenses that you look out of from
being a songwriter to a label head and writing for
other people, what's been some of the most surprising parts
about now having a bird's eye of all of these
different pieces.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Of the whole. I think just how much goes into it.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
When you're signed to a major label, they obviously have
such a massive infrastructure, you know, they have different departments
for different things. And when you start your own label,
you really realize how much, how much, how big.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Of a village you need for it to work. And
I have a really incredible team.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That we've put together. It's a it's a tiny but
mighty team. Is what we like to call it. Someone
that helps run the label, someone that helps do the creative,
someone that helps with content, you know, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Et cetera. And yeah, I I.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The naive person, the naive person, and me was like, Oh,
I'm gonna start a label and I'm gonna put songs
out and it's it's just so much more intricate than that.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Sorry. So for you, it's interesting what I started to
ask before and this because you were saying that you
don't necessarily have a ritual, But from talking with the
other artists, I found that like, for example, Chris Cornell
and Dan Wilson both told me that Dan Wilson said
for him it was running. Chris said for him how
water got him flowing. Or is there a certain thing
for you though that you do find like sort of
(06:16):
I mean, like you say, you can hear it in
a conversation, but is there one thing for you that
kind of like just you find often triggers the ideas
or is it jump starts it or is just completely random?
Because it is funny how certain artists have said, like no,
if I'm doing this and it's like there's something about
clearing your brain out. Yeah, that allows it to come in.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Honestly, No, I don't have a ritual.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I and to be honest, when I'm writing with people,
I don't really even know where it comes from. It
just I'll be with someone, they'll say something and then
I don't know. It's like the universe just goes pop.
It's like, oh great, there's an idea. Hey, I'm gonna
say this out loud. If it sucks, then there suck.
(07:01):
I know that sounds so boring. I wish I was like, yeah,
I eat three meals a day and I do yoga
and I do all of these things to enhance my brain.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
No, I don't fucking do any of that. I just
I wake up, I have a Chai latte, I go
to the studio.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
I talk to someone for a few hours and I'm like,
they say something.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I'm like, that's a great song. We should write it,
and then we.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Have a song that's awesome. Though, I mean, there is
a right way to do it. I mean, like again,
like I said, we talked to everybody. Mike Stuler is
ninety years old. He wrot stand by me, which to me,
besides God only knows, might be the greatest song of
all time. He's like, I have no idea where songs come.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
From, no idea, couldn't tell you no.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And I imagine it's kind of liberating in the sense
to like not know it a weird way because it's
like sometimes it's just beyond your control. It'll happen there,
it won't happen, but.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You know, and everyone's process is completely different, you know.
I was.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I did a songwriting panel with Money Long the other
day and she was like, you know, you gotta hang out.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
You gotta hang out with the.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
People, and you gotta like, you know, be in the
sessions and just be around.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
And I'm like, that works for you, and that's amazing
for me.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I'm getting there at one, I'm doing my fucking job,
and then I'm getting the fuck.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Out of there. I'm not hanging out with anybody.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You know, Like, everyone's process is different, and you have
to as a songwriter, you really have to find what works,
what works for you.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So obvious questions, but I have to ask, because I
mentioned don only understand by me. For you, what is
the one song that you wish you had written?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
And why, oh boy, the one song I wish I
had written? I would say probably. I Can't Make You
Love Me by Bonnie Rait. I mean, it's just like
one of the best well written ballads of all time,
(08:53):
and it just evokes so many emotions. Uh, I'm trying
to think of There's like another song, Oh oh is
it Independence Day? By Annie DeFranco. That's a pretty incredible
song as well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
That's all. I fucking love Anie DeFranco and she's such
a badass person.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Badass person and just like the second verse of that
song is one of the most iconically well written verses
I think of ever.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
By the way, Bonnie is also a perfect choice because
that is one of the greatest songs of all time,
and she's a badass person in a very different way.
You know. It's interesting though, I love the fact that
you mentioned Annie, and do you feel because you have
a different audience, like there's a sense of like not respect,
it like fun in getting to introduce people to maybe
who don't know that you know, holy shit, Anie Franko
has been making great music for thirty five years and
(09:51):
is one of the baddest women on the fucking planet.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Absolutely, And I also, you know, I grew up listening
to them, so I'm I'm sure subconsciously the way that
they go about lyricism.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Is is, you.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Know, subconsciously ingrained into how I approach lyricism. You know,
I'm just trying to follow into the steps of my
four mothers.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I guess that's really interesting though, let's say it, shake
it back over one second. But it's funny because I've
interviewed on a few times and you know, now, of
course you're a wabelhead, and of course I was doing
that shit thirty years ago. And it's funny. Did you
even think about that? Was it like a random subconscious thing?
Like when you think about it, it's like, I is
this amazing lyricist who runs Regiscape Records.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
No, I didn't think that I was signed to a
major label.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
For a really long time, I felt like I wasn't
being cared for and the way that I really wanted
to be cared for. And I was like, all right,
please let me leave and let me do this on
my own, and let me fail on my own or
succeed on my own, but anyway, just like, give me
(11:04):
the chance to try. And that's why I started the label.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
That's really interesting how these subconscious ideas like manifest into
these you know, realities years later, and especially with songs.
So many people talk about how great writing is subconscious.
Do you find that you understand the ideas years later
even and like if you look back on a song
(11:32):
that you wrote, even for somebody else, that that seed
becomes more realized for you.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
For songs, for me, especially ones that I've written, I
feel like they take and maybe this isn't why you're
asking me, but I feel like they take on new
meaning for me as time goes on.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Like you know, I could write it about.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
One person or one thing, and then five years later
I could be singing in about another person or another thing,
or another memory, another event.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That happens to me a lot. And I think too,
to kind of.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Mask pain from maybe what I had written it about previously,
I make up like some sort of.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
New way to be able to get through singing it.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, now, you know, with
all of the hats that you wear, I want to
go back to that because it's really impressive just how
you jump between you know, writing for the people, writing
for yourself and now running the label. What's been like
some of the most favorite parts of that journey. Yeah,
(12:39):
maybe of the past year.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Of the past year.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
I mean, I I like to say that I do
my best at being Batman and Bruce Wayne at the
same time.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I mean, I love writing. I love that's my that's
my heart and soul. And so to be able to even.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Be in these rooms with these artists that I adore
and write songs with them and still be able to
make time for myself and my itty bitty dreams, It's
just I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful to be able
to do that, to be able to go, you know,
work with the beautiful and talented you know, Tate, and
(13:23):
then spend a week writing, you know, about my thoughts
and feelings and yeah, and starting the label obviously we
started it last year and that has been incredible. And
just the amount of support from YouTube and Spotify and
Apple Music and for my fans, h has been so
(13:44):
overwhelmingly amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Like, I'm so just so grateful.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You know. It is interesting that going back to the
idea of things coming in through and talk to that.
Tried this again in English, going through the subconscious, do
you find when you're around all these different people, like
of course as an artist, you're always learning, so and
everybody has their own process, like you said, so the
people that you've learned a lot from in ways that
like surprise you in a pleasant way. I mean, you know,
(14:12):
like because again everybody you're going to learn something from,
like in a different way.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, I'm sure subconsciously for sure, I feel like for myself.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Not for obviously when I'm writing for myself, but when
I'm writing with other people, I'm definitely a chameleon.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Like I it's an active service. I'm there for them.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So if they want to go and sing on the
mic and try things and then and they're like, hey,
you want to take a pass, I'm like sure, Like
I'll try it if that's what makes you feel comfortable,
If if you think we're going to get something out
of it, absolutely, if you feel more comfortable just talking
and we can talk together and blah blah blah blah blah,
like and I can get lyrics out.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Of that, absolutely, Like I'm there for you.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
However you want to utilize your time with me, and
and my hope is that I can do what you're
looking for that day, then I will. I think if
I'm gonna learn something, I learn a lot more from
like other songwriters and producers in the way that they
go about lyrics, maybe in the way that they go
about melodies, because obviously my job is collaboration.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Uh you know, I'll be in a room.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
With someone and maybe they say something I wouldn't think
of or sing something I wouldn't think of, and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
It's that's the point, that's why we're there.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Interesting. So who are the songwriters? Who are some of
the songwriters and producers that you feel you've learned the
most from over the last few years?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Oh boy, I mean I started with this songwriter named
Lindy Robbins. She was kind of my first mentor and
she really introduced me to a lot of people and
guided me through. John Ryan is one of my favorite collaborators.
He's his just melodic instincts are so amazing.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I don't know, there's so many, There's so many, No.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
It makes sense. Well, it's funny, let's come to you know.
I'm interested in the idea for executive. When you write
so many songs, how did you know decide that, okay
it was time to do the EP? Like these were
the songs that were now for you versus you know
Sabrino or Tate or Ed Sheeran or you know anyone.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Well, typically when I do songs for artists, I'm I'm
typically with them, So I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
I don't typically write songs and then pitch them. So
if I have a song that I really love, it's
probably because I set time aside for myself to do
it for myself.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
So yeah, that's that's that's how I usually do it.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I'm not I'm not like in a session with someone
and I'm like, oh, I'm going to take that for myself.
I don't know if I would have a job still
affinded that was.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
There one song that jump started the CP that was
like Okay, now I feel like you know? Or were
these songs written over a span of time.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I mean, Heaven Too was the first song that I
wrote when I got off of the label, and that
was kind of the first song where I was like,
do I want to do this again? Do I believe
in myself enough to put myself out there?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
The answer obviously was the yes. I just think it was.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Different and it was cool, and you know, I think
I've spent a lot of time in my life being
known as the girl that's like very emotionally vulnerable, which
I completely am. But I really wanted to be able
to talk about I guess other facets of my personality
on this EP, and having to felt like one of
(17:58):
those those assets.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I guess that's really interesting. By the way, did you
ever I'm curious have you ever hung out with Linda
Perry or I met Linda.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I met Linda once, but I've never spent time with her.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You need to. It's funny just on the total because
I just wrote her bio. I've known Linda for like
twenty years, and it's so interesting because your stories are
so parallel in terms of her having the success of
four non Blawns and feeling burned by the label and
just being fuck this and decided to go in a
totally different direction, and it taking her thirty years to
feel like, Okay, now I'm ready to be back in
(18:31):
the spotlight. It's really interesting, you know how parallel the
stories are.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I mean, I love Linda Perry.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I met her one time at a Clive Davis party
and my friend Justin Tranter was with me, and I
was like, that's Linda, and he was like, you've never
met her?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
What And I was like no, He's like, go say hi.
I was like, no, I don't want to meet her.
I just think she's so magical. And he was like
Linda Julia, and I was like and she was honestly
so nice. I was so so happy.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, well, I highly recommend it, just because, like I say,
the story is a parallel. But it's funny then rather
than you know, are there people that you've learned a
lot from hanging out with in the industry? And Justin's
funny because I interviewed him way back when for Rolling
Stone when he was in Semi Precious Weapons, and then
I talked to him later on when he became like
a songwriter, and I'm like, well, how do you feel
about it? And he's like, man, I dodged the bullet
(19:25):
not being famous.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I mean, he's right. But yeah, so are there people
that you've really learned a lot from or that you know,
really have kind of guide you as you've gone through
these industry struggles, because there are so many great people
who've dealt with, you know, a million and one issues.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
To be honest, no, I haven't. I haven't gotten really
any advice.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I think you just kind of figure it out for
yourself and hope for the best. I feel like this
industry just throws so much stuff about you all the time,
and you have to just adapt and evolve and and
just kind of go with it.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
That's really interesting. I love how you brought up service earlier.
And it's so fascinating to hear artists talk about how
you know, with their antenna that kind of also means
like this, this higher power that you know, whatever that
means to them is flowing through them, and I think
that that has.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
OLP.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Now you're frozen these space Oh.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
So I was curious, like, what are what were some
of those things that you wanted to see remade. I
know you talked about just not feeling really taken care of.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But you know, cut out. I'm so sorry I couldn't
hear you. You're a storm counting in New York.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
So it's like I was just going on about service
and some of the inspirations for you to start the
new spaces. You know that you were really leading and creating.
What were some of the key points that you wanted
to change with industry?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I mean, I think for me, I'm hoping to inspire
artists too.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I guess approach things a little bit differently. I think
artists feel like they've made it when they signed to
a major label, and.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It's really easy for them to, you know, give you
the world, and then it's easier for them to take
it away. And then some of these incredible artists just
kind of sit on major labels and don't get the
opportunity to share their artistry and their creativity, and it
breaks my heart. And I hope that I hope that
(22:15):
I will inspire someone to be like, oh, let me
try it on my own first before I go and
jump ship and do this whole label like label run,
you know, putting themselves first and putting the rest forward.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
And you probably could ask this question a lot. But
if there's a piece of advice that you would tell yourself,
or you know, a young woman coming into the industry,
what do you tell that person?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
M M, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I guess just like this is gonna sound so, but
just like, trust your gut. I feel like, especially when
you're signed to a major label, there's so many outside
influences of people telling you what to do and who
to be and what to where and how to think.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And you know, I think it can.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Really mess with your ability to trust yourself. And I
wish that I had trust myself sooner, but I'm doing
it now.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, it's interesting that you say you wish you had
trust yourself, senior. But the other thing I've found, I'm
talking to every artist who ever lived, is that you know,
you just get more confident as you get older. So
do you feel like you're in a better place now
to be able to do that? Because it's just a
natural thing.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Hell yeah, I mean who I was at twenty three
years old, signed to a place where I you know,
I didn't really have my footing to be thirty one
now and starting my own label and putting out songs
that I really believe in and getting to make the
(24:08):
visuals that I see in my head with my friends
and do things on my own terms in my own way.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I'm I'm not who I was, and thank god I'm
not who I was.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, But it's funny because in a way, like so,
do you feel like to you? The other thing I
find is are you enjoying it more? Him?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah? Definitely?
Speaker 1 (24:34):
All right, Wait, so I asked you I joke at
the beginning of your podcast needs to be called go
fuck Yourself. I'm obsessed with that song because of the
fact that, like Stage and I were talking about it beforehand,
everybody always feels like this need for forgiveness and wellness
and sometimes someone is just a fucking asshole who doesn't
deserve it period.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Definitely, how much.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Fun was to write that song and how liberating to
say that because most people won't admit it. I always
wanted to write a book the powerfuck Off. There's something
that we bring about, you know, just saying like, dude, no.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And you should. You should absolutely write that book.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I can co author it with you because I probably
have a lot of shit to say.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Great, I'm in.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Uh No, it was absolutely liberating.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I wrote it about one person in particular, but obviously
the more that I see it, the more I listen
to it, the more faces pop into my mind. I did.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Now as soon as you say that, it's funny because
Atlantis is a friend and I got to interview Carly
Simon for a book I did, and I see it
in the tradition of like now, twenty years from now,
people are going to be like paying you to find
out who it was about.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Well, I'm very open with my fans, so even if
I don't name names, they have a few faces in mind.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Nice. So what do they win if they get right?
Is there like a you know, making it to a
contest of like you know, who's it about, and like
they win a like backstage trap.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Or whatever, then everyone's gonna be backstage with me. They
all know.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Nice. But was it something like when it started to
come out, it was just like again with the idea
of writing being subconscious, when it started to come out,
was it just like, Okay, this is just fun and
like you didn't necessarily even expect to write that song,
and then all of a sudden it's like, damn, this
feels good.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
No, I think I had written the course like in
the shower or something. I write a lot in the shower.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I think it's because it's.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I don't have any like sort of outside distractions. You know,
I'm not like on my phone, I'm not talking to someone,
I'm not engaging with anything. I'm just in my own head,
in my own space and just kind of decompressing and
self reflecting. And yeah, I wrote the course in the shower,
and I had a session with my dear dear friend
Pete Nappy and brought it to him and I was like,
(26:59):
is this an in saying idea?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
He was like, no, it's fantastic. We should run rate
this and yeah. I finished it with him. And then
when it came time to do the music video, h
my friend bly.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Thomas and I have been doing all of the videos
together and we came up with the idea of doing
a talk with a fifty foot woman and just destroying
this man shit.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And I was like, yes, we have to do this.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
That was so cathartic, It was so fun.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
We had the best time, and.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I imagine as well other people have just loved the
song as well, because, like I said, there's like everybody
is so into the idea of wellness and forgiveness, which
is great, but some people you can just look in
like certain high places at this point in this country
and see some people just don't fucking deserve forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Period. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
And I think you, I think you attract what you
put out in the world. I think you attract like
minded people. So I have a I have a strong
fan base of people that will be screaming go fuck
yourself with me in concert.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Very nice, so true that will become like a single
on the anthem period.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Definitely.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
It was such a beautiful honesty to all of your music.
I remember the first time I heard Issues so many
years ago like that that really uh, you know, it
touches on something like so real. Do you have your
Has your process changed a lot since that song? Do
you find that you know, like for uh, this song
(28:41):
we were just talking about, it was the chorus and
then that kind of unraveled. Do you always find new
ways into the song or is it pretty common to
how it flows?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
To be honest, I don't have a process, and I
honestly think that it's kept me sort of sharper as
a writer, especially too, because I never know what I'm
gonna get when I'm working with artists, and so I
(29:13):
don't have any sort of process when I work with
other people, So I don't really have one for myself.
Sometimes I'll have a little nugget of an idea, I'll
have something written down or a line that I really like.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Sometimes I won't have.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Any idea at all, and I'll just go on the
mic and I'll sing something down and just kind of
see from there.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Most of the time.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
If I'm writing for myself and I'm writing by myself
with like a producer, I'll sit there for like two
three hours maybe four, in total silence with the guitar
or the piano just looping, and I'll write stuff down
on my phone, or I'll have my eyes closed or
write something down in my head and then I'll kind
of sing it out on the mic and see how
(29:55):
it feels. I never get I just like I like
to have things kind of fully formed. Even when I'm
like singing things down, I'll kind of sit there in
silence with the or I'll sit there just like not
saying anything with the music.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
On and kind of singing things down in.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
My head before I sing them out loud. Every day
is different. It really depends on my mood on Yeah,
how I feel, what I want to write about, what
I want to.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Say, who I'm with.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
And I imagine that's also true for the actual sound
that you come upon. You know, you know, as the
creator the producer that you are as well like putting
together the sound is I'm sure you know one of
the most interesting parts of this, all this last project. Yeah,
(30:53):
it has a very different but still you sound. I
can talk about like the the discernment and the deciding
on you know, what the tone is going to be,
and then running from there.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
To be honest, I think that my lyrics kind of
inform production most of the time.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Like I don't typically start.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
With like a fully produced thing and be like, oh,
I'm gonna write to this. A lot of the times
we start from scratch or from an idea or just
from a chord progression that feels really good and go
from there. And I think also the producers that I
work with know me know that I like a lot
(31:39):
of like real elements to things, so burn's and drums
and guitars and pianos, like.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Even choirs.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
I just feel closer to the music when I have
more of those real elements in it. But a lot
of the times too, I'll let the producer have free reign,
like that's collaboration, and I'll see.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Where their instincts go.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
And if I'm like, WHOA, that's a little a little
left from what I was anticipating, you know, we.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Can always roll it back.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
But I try not to get in the way and
micromanage things too much because I obviously want this to
be fun and creative for everybody involved.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I have to ask, as a fan, for you, one
artist that you would love to collaborate with, and maybe
not necessarily even someone alive, but one artist in history
that would have been like the most fun for you
to just sit in a studio with.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Oh my gosh, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
And if it's someone alive, that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But yeah, alive alive.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I mean, you know, probably one of my female heroes,
Fion Apple on It, Franco, Patty Griffin, Atlantis for sure,
you know, Virgina Specter, any one of those.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Not alive.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Maybe Judy Garland. I've always just been a massive fan
of her voice. I would have loved to hear her
sing in front of me or Janice Choplin.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Nice. What do you want to add that we didn't
ask you about? And by the way, it's funny because
Sage is obsessed with Judy Garland and I actually just
was talking with Patty's publicist about the interviewing her. She
has a new album coming out and.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I love her, oh my heart, I can't wait for that.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Then, so wait, who would be your Dreammarge tour? Which
is for fun, not because they'd be great, like match
or commercial or any shit like that. But just because
you'd have a glass being on the road with them,
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
God, like as a human being. But what if I
don't know them as human beings? What if they're total assholes?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Well, who would you love to take a chance on
the interview? Then you write a song about them called
go Fuck Yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Probably few on Apple. I'm a big, big fan of
hers or David Byrne love It, love Me some David Byrne.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I mean he was just on stage with Olivia Ririgo,
so there's a good chance.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I know. I was like, wow, my dream. I was
so happy for both of them. That was so cool.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
No, it was that such a weird collaboration, but it
made total sense. It was great.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
It was so amazing. I was so jealous in the
best way possible.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I'm obsessed with Fiond of this. She's I was actually
the third interview that she ever did because I'm such
a I mean to me, she can literally sing anything
that ever created, and was like, it's perfect.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Absolutely, She's definitely one of my heroes for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
And the boy you want to talk about it badass,
but man, I know only have two minute stuff. What
do you want to add that we didn't ask you about.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I don't know, Lily, did I miss something I don't
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So that was so fun to listen to.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I'm not gonna lie. Well, it's so fun to do, so,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Thanks for having me. I think we got it all.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Cool. All right, we have a good one.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Enjoy your bye.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Bye Steve by stage hy Bye.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Thanks
All right, it's Steve Balton and this week's in the
Service of Stays Bobin and I have a great conversation
with Julia Michaels about songwriting, the power of fuck off,
and so much more. This is a really fun, engaging,
enjoyable conversation, so I hope you enjoy this one as
much as media. Thanks. Cool. So how's it going today.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
It's going good. It's going good.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Just about to start my day after this, I'm gonna
go do a session and I leave. I'm actually leaving
for a while and taking a little brain break for
a second.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
So I'm excited.
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Very cool. I mean, it's fun with all the stuff
you have going on. Do you feel like, you know,
those brain breaks recharge you or do you kind of lose.
Speaker 2 (01:06):
Momentum recharge for sure?
Speaker 3 (01:11):
You know, I write songs five days a week. I
take my weekends off just so I can be a
human being. But I'm writing all the time. And I
think it was really last year when I realized that
I was just kind of I didn't love being in
La It's so hot, everyone's on tour, so writing just
felt so bleak.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
I was so depressed, and I was like, yeah, I'm not.
Speaker 3 (01:36):
Going to do this next summer, and so I've decided
to just go breathe. And I find like boredom for
me is really inspiring. I feel like I think up
things differently, or because I just have time to have
space from this whole process.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
That's really interesting though, that you say you write five
days a week but take week ends off again stage
and I have talked to everyone in the world, from
like Jimmy Cliff to Mike Stoler to Willie Nelson about
the songwriting process. Everybody says the same thing. Of course,
you can't really control it. Your antenna's up and stuff
comes to you. So if you're on the weekend and
you get the idea for like fucking God only knows
(02:17):
what do you do. Do you just say no, I'm
not doing it, or do you just run to the
you know, wherever you're going.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
No.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
I mean, obviously, if you have a well.
Speaker 3 (02:27):
It's it rarely runs dry. If you have a creative well,
it rarely runs dry. But you know, like I'll be
in the shower at night and I'll think about something
and I'm like, oh, that's a great song, and if
it is strong enough, it'll make it through my week
somehow all it'll be the song I write on a
Tuesday or a Wednesday. But I'm not like hustling to
(02:48):
the studio on the weekend. I've been doing this since
I was sixteen. I used to do doubles, triples, you know,
kill myself. And then I realized one day that I
was like, this is just it's me. I'm stressed, I'm
having panic attacks, like I'm not mentally found, and I'm
killing myself for songs.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
Like that's crazy. I love music, I love what I do.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
I'm so in love with what I do. But there
has to be a balance. You cannot live and die
by the studio.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
Yeah, it's so interesting to hear people's processes and like
these rituals that they make for themselves to deter from
from that anxiety that you know in the fast moving
industry that it is, and now that you wear all
of these different hats, I imagine that you know, creating
these spaces for yourself really helps you in the creative flow.
(03:44):
So it's curious, when you're doing this brain break or
within being creative, do you have rituals that you've really
toned in for yourself that have helped you.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
No, I wouldn't say I have any rituals. I would
say that I just like try to live as much
as I can while I can.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
And you know, being on the street can spark an idea,
a conversation can spark an idea.
Speaker 2 (04:14):
Something I read can spark an idea.
Speaker 3 (04:16):
So it really doesn't matter what I'm doing, how long
I'm doing it.
Speaker 2 (04:21):
You know, I could see one thing and be like, yeah,
that's a song.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Is there one thing?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Though?
Speaker 3 (04:28):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Sorry, go ahead.
Speaker 4 (04:30):
I was just gonna ask, like, you know, in all
of the different lenses that you look out of from
being a songwriter to a label head and writing for
other people, what's been some of the most surprising parts
about now having a bird's eye of all of these
different pieces.
Speaker 2 (04:49):
Of the whole. I think just how much goes into it.
Speaker 3 (04:56):
When you're signed to a major label, they obviously have
such a massive infrastructure, you know, they have different departments
for different things. And when you start your own label,
you really realize how much, how much, how big.
Speaker 2 (05:16):
Of a village you need for it to work. And
I have a really incredible team.
Speaker 3 (05:24):
That we've put together. It's a it's a tiny but
mighty team. Is what we like to call it. Someone
that helps run the label, someone that helps do the creative,
someone that helps with content, you know, et cetera.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Et cetera. And yeah, I I.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
The naive person, the naive person, and me was like, Oh,
I'm gonna start a label and I'm gonna put songs
out and it's it's just so much more intricate than that.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Sorry. So for you, it's interesting what I started to
ask before and this because you were saying that you
don't necessarily have a ritual, But from talking with the
other artists, I found that like, for example, Chris Cornell
and Dan Wilson both told me that Dan Wilson said
for him it was running. Chris said for him how
water got him flowing. Or is there a certain thing
for you though that you do find like sort of
(06:16):
I mean, like you say, you can hear it in
a conversation, but is there one thing for you that
kind of like just you find often triggers the ideas
or is it jump starts it or is just completely random?
Because it is funny how certain artists have said, like no,
if I'm doing this and it's like there's something about
clearing your brain out. Yeah, that allows it to come in.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Honestly, No, I don't have a ritual.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
I and to be honest, when I'm writing with people,
I don't really even know where it comes from. It
just I'll be with someone, they'll say something and then
I don't know. It's like the universe just goes pop.
It's like, oh great, there's an idea. Hey, I'm gonna
say this out loud. If it sucks, then there suck.
(07:01):
I know that sounds so boring. I wish I was like, yeah,
I eat three meals a day and I do yoga
and I do all of these things to enhance my brain.
Speaker 2 (07:10):
No, I don't fucking do any of that. I just
I wake up, I have a Chai latte, I go
to the studio.
Speaker 3 (07:15):
I talk to someone for a few hours and I'm like,
they say something.
Speaker 2 (07:18):
I'm like, that's a great song. We should write it,
and then we.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Have a song that's awesome. Though, I mean, there is
a right way to do it. I mean, like again,
like I said, we talked to everybody. Mike Stuler is
ninety years old. He wrot stand by me, which to me,
besides God only knows, might be the greatest song of
all time. He's like, I have no idea where songs come.
Speaker 2 (07:34):
From, no idea, couldn't tell you no.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
And I imagine it's kind of liberating in the sense
to like not know it a weird way because it's
like sometimes it's just beyond your control. It'll happen there,
it won't happen, but.
Speaker 2 (07:48):
You know, and everyone's process is completely different, you know.
I was.
Speaker 3 (07:53):
I did a songwriting panel with Money Long the other
day and she was like, you know, you gotta hang out.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
You gotta hang out with the.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
People, and you gotta like, you know, be in the
sessions and just be around.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
And I'm like, that works for you, and that's amazing
for me.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
I'm getting there at one, I'm doing my fucking job,
and then I'm getting the fuck.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Out of there. I'm not hanging out with anybody.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
You know, Like, everyone's process is different, and you have
to as a songwriter, you really have to find what works,
what works for you.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
So obvious questions, but I have to ask, because I
mentioned don only understand by me. For you, what is
the one song that you wish you had written?
Speaker 3 (08:32):
And why, oh boy, the one song I wish I
had written? I would say probably. I Can't Make You
Love Me by Bonnie Rait. I mean, it's just like
one of the best well written ballads of all time,
(08:53):
and it just evokes so many emotions. Uh, I'm trying
to think of There's like another song, Oh oh is
it Independence Day? By Annie DeFranco. That's a pretty incredible
song as well.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
That's all. I fucking love Anie DeFranco and she's such
a badass person.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
Badass person and just like the second verse of that
song is one of the most iconically well written verses
I think of ever.
Speaker 1 (09:29):
By the way, Bonnie is also a perfect choice because
that is one of the greatest songs of all time,
and she's a badass person in a very different way.
You know. It's interesting though, I love the fact that
you mentioned Annie, and do you feel because you have
a different audience, like there's a sense of like not respect,
it like fun in getting to introduce people to maybe
who don't know that you know, holy shit, Anie Franko
has been making great music for thirty five years and
(09:51):
is one of the baddest women on the fucking planet.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
Absolutely, And I also, you know, I grew up listening
to them, so I'm I'm sure subconsciously the way that
they go about lyricism.
Speaker 2 (10:04):
Is is, you.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Know, subconsciously ingrained into how I approach lyricism. You know,
I'm just trying to follow into the steps of my
four mothers.
Speaker 1 (10:17):
I guess that's really interesting though, let's say it, shake
it back over one second. But it's funny because I've
interviewed on a few times and you know, now, of
course you're a wabelhead, and of course I was doing
that shit thirty years ago. And it's funny. Did you
even think about that? Was it like a random subconscious thing?
Like when you think about it, it's like, I is
this amazing lyricist who runs Regiscape Records.
Speaker 2 (10:38):
No, I didn't think that I was signed to a
major label.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
For a really long time, I felt like I wasn't
being cared for and the way that I really wanted
to be cared for. And I was like, all right,
please let me leave and let me do this on
my own, and let me fail on my own or
succeed on my own, but anyway, just like, give me
(11:04):
the chance to try. And that's why I started the label.
Speaker 4 (11:11):
That's really interesting how these subconscious ideas like manifest into
these you know, realities years later, and especially with songs.
So many people talk about how great writing is subconscious.
Do you find that you understand the ideas years later
even and like if you look back on a song
(11:32):
that you wrote, even for somebody else, that that seed
becomes more realized for you.
Speaker 3 (11:39):
For songs, for me, especially ones that I've written, I
feel like they take and maybe this isn't why you're
asking me, but I feel like they take on new
meaning for me as time goes on.
Speaker 2 (11:50):
Like you know, I could write it about.
Speaker 3 (11:51):
One person or one thing, and then five years later
I could be singing in about another person or another thing,
or another memory, another event.
Speaker 2 (12:00):
That happens to me a lot. And I think too,
to kind of.
Speaker 3 (12:04):
Mask pain from maybe what I had written it about previously,
I make up like some sort of.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
New way to be able to get through singing it.
Speaker 4 (12:18):
Yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, now, you know, with
all of the hats that you wear, I want to
go back to that because it's really impressive just how
you jump between you know, writing for the people, writing
for yourself and now running the label. What's been like
some of the most favorite parts of that journey. Yeah,
(12:39):
maybe of the past year.
Speaker 2 (12:43):
Of the past year.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
I mean, I I like to say that I do
my best at being Batman and Bruce Wayne at the
same time.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
I mean, I love writing. I love that's my that's
my heart and soul. And so to be able to even.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
Be in these rooms with these artists that I adore
and write songs with them and still be able to
make time for myself and my itty bitty dreams, It's
just I'm really grateful. I'm really grateful to be able
to do that, to be able to go, you know,
work with the beautiful and talented you know, Tate, and
(13:23):
then spend a week writing, you know, about my thoughts
and feelings and yeah, and starting the label obviously we
started it last year and that has been incredible. And
just the amount of support from YouTube and Spotify and
Apple Music and for my fans, h has been so
(13:44):
overwhelmingly amazing.
Speaker 2 (13:47):
Like, I'm so just so grateful.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
You know. It is interesting that going back to the
idea of things coming in through and talk to that.
Tried this again in English, going through the subconscious, do
you find when you're around all these different people, like
of course as an artist, you're always learning, so and
everybody has their own process, like you said, so the
people that you've learned a lot from in ways that
like surprise you in a pleasant way. I mean, you know,
(14:12):
like because again everybody you're going to learn something from,
like in a different way.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
Yeah, I'm sure subconsciously for sure, I feel like for myself.
Speaker 3 (14:23):
Not for obviously when I'm writing for myself, but when
I'm writing with other people, I'm definitely a chameleon.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Like I it's an active service. I'm there for them.
Speaker 3 (14:33):
So if they want to go and sing on the
mic and try things and then and they're like, hey,
you want to take a pass, I'm like sure, Like
I'll try it if that's what makes you feel comfortable,
If if you think we're going to get something out
of it, absolutely, if you feel more comfortable just talking
and we can talk together and blah blah blah blah blah,
like and I can get lyrics out.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
Of that, absolutely, Like I'm there for you.
Speaker 3 (14:55):
However you want to utilize your time with me, and
and my hope is that I can do what you're
looking for that day, then I will. I think if
I'm gonna learn something, I learn a lot more from
like other songwriters and producers in the way that they
go about lyrics, maybe in the way that they go
about melodies, because obviously my job is collaboration.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
Uh you know, I'll be in a room.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
With someone and maybe they say something I wouldn't think
of or sing something I wouldn't think of, and vice versa.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
It's that's the point, that's why we're there.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Interesting. So who are the songwriters? Who are some of
the songwriters and producers that you feel you've learned the
most from over the last few years?
Speaker 3 (15:39):
Oh boy, I mean I started with this songwriter named
Lindy Robbins. She was kind of my first mentor and
she really introduced me to a lot of people and
guided me through. John Ryan is one of my favorite collaborators.
He's his just melodic instincts are so amazing.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
I don't know, there's so many, There's so many, No.
Speaker 1 (16:06):
It makes sense. Well, it's funny, let's come to you know.
I'm interested in the idea for executive. When you write
so many songs, how did you know decide that, okay
it was time to do the EP? Like these were
the songs that were now for you versus you know
Sabrino or Tate or Ed Sheeran or you know anyone.
Speaker 3 (16:26):
Well, typically when I do songs for artists, I'm I'm
typically with them, So I don't.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I don't.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
I don't typically write songs and then pitch them. So
if I have a song that I really love, it's
probably because I set time aside for myself to do
it for myself.
Speaker 2 (16:50):
So yeah, that's that's that's how I usually do it.
Speaker 3 (16:54):
I'm not I'm not like in a session with someone
and I'm like, oh, I'm going to take that for myself.
I don't know if I would have a job still
affinded that was.
Speaker 1 (17:03):
There one song that jump started the CP that was
like Okay, now I feel like you know? Or were
these songs written over a span of time.
Speaker 3 (17:11):
I mean, Heaven Too was the first song that I
wrote when I got off of the label, and that
was kind of the first song where I was like,
do I want to do this again? Do I believe
in myself enough to put myself out there?
Speaker 2 (17:31):
The answer obviously was the yes. I just think it was.
Speaker 3 (17:36):
Different and it was cool, and you know, I think
I've spent a lot of time in my life being
known as the girl that's like very emotionally vulnerable, which
I completely am. But I really wanted to be able
to talk about I guess other facets of my personality
on this EP, and having to felt like one of
(17:58):
those those assets.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
I guess that's really interesting. By the way, did you
ever I'm curious have you ever hung out with Linda
Perry or I met Linda.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
I met Linda once, but I've never spent time with her.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
You need to. It's funny just on the total because
I just wrote her bio. I've known Linda for like
twenty years, and it's so interesting because your stories are
so parallel in terms of her having the success of
four non Blawns and feeling burned by the label and
just being fuck this and decided to go in a
totally different direction, and it taking her thirty years to
feel like, Okay, now I'm ready to be back in
(18:31):
the spotlight. It's really interesting, you know how parallel the
stories are.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
I mean, I love Linda Perry.
Speaker 3 (18:39):
I met her one time at a Clive Davis party
and my friend Justin Tranter was with me, and I
was like, that's Linda, and he was like, you've never
met her?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
What And I was like no, He's like, go say hi.
I was like, no, I don't want to meet her.
I just think she's so magical. And he was like
Linda Julia, and I was like and she was honestly
so nice. I was so so happy.
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Yeah, well, I highly recommend it, just because, like I say,
the story is a parallel. But it's funny then rather
than you know, are there people that you've learned a
lot from hanging out with in the industry? And Justin's
funny because I interviewed him way back when for Rolling
Stone when he was in Semi Precious Weapons, and then
I talked to him later on when he became like
a songwriter, and I'm like, well, how do you feel
about it? And he's like, man, I dodged the bullet
(19:25):
not being famous.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
That's funny.
Speaker 1 (19:31):
I mean, he's right. But yeah, so are there people
that you've really learned a lot from or that you know,
really have kind of guide you as you've gone through
these industry struggles, because there are so many great people
who've dealt with, you know, a million and one issues.
Speaker 2 (19:46):
To be honest, no, I haven't. I haven't gotten really
any advice.
Speaker 3 (19:51):
I think you just kind of figure it out for
yourself and hope for the best. I feel like this
industry just throws so much stuff about you all the time,
and you have to just adapt and evolve and and
just kind of go with it.
Speaker 4 (20:08):
That's really interesting. I love how you brought up service earlier.
And it's so fascinating to hear artists talk about how
you know, with their antenna that kind of also means
like this, this higher power that you know, whatever that
means to them is flowing through them, and I think
that that has.
Speaker 2 (20:37):
OLP.
Speaker 3 (20:39):
Now you're frozen these space Oh.
Speaker 4 (20:47):
So I was curious, like, what are what were some
of those things that you wanted to see remade. I
know you talked about just not feeling really taken care of.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
But you know, cut out. I'm so sorry I couldn't
hear you. You're a storm counting in New York.
Speaker 4 (21:06):
So it's like I was just going on about service
and some of the inspirations for you to start the
new spaces. You know that you were really leading and creating.
What were some of the key points that you wanted
to change with industry?
Speaker 3 (21:30):
I mean, I think for me, I'm hoping to inspire
artists too.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I guess approach things a little bit differently. I think
artists feel like they've made it when they signed to
a major label, and.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It's really easy for them to, you know, give you
the world, and then it's easier for them to take
it away. And then some of these incredible artists just
kind of sit on major labels and don't get the
opportunity to share their artistry and their creativity, and it
breaks my heart. And I hope that I hope that
(22:15):
I will inspire someone to be like, oh, let me
try it on my own first before I go and
jump ship and do this whole label like label run,
you know, putting themselves first and putting the rest forward.
Speaker 4 (22:42):
And you probably could ask this question a lot. But
if there's a piece of advice that you would tell yourself,
or you know, a young woman coming into the industry,
what do you tell that person?
Speaker 2 (22:54):
M M, I don't know.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
I guess just like this is gonna sound so, but
just like, trust your gut. I feel like, especially when
you're signed to a major label, there's so many outside
influences of people telling you what to do and who
to be and what to where and how to think.
Speaker 2 (23:16):
And you know, I think it can.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Really mess with your ability to trust yourself. And I
wish that I had trust myself sooner, but I'm doing
it now.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Well, it's interesting that you say you wish you had
trust yourself, senior. But the other thing I've found, I'm
talking to every artist who ever lived, is that you know,
you just get more confident as you get older. So
do you feel like you're in a better place now
to be able to do that? Because it's just a
natural thing.
Speaker 3 (23:45):
Hell yeah, I mean who I was at twenty three
years old, signed to a place where I you know,
I didn't really have my footing to be thirty one
now and starting my own label and putting out songs
that I really believe in and getting to make the
(24:08):
visuals that I see in my head with my friends
and do things on my own terms in my own way.
Speaker 2 (24:18):
I'm I'm not who I was, and thank god I'm
not who I was.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
Yeah, But it's funny because in a way, like so,
do you feel like to you? The other thing I
find is are you enjoying it more? Him?
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Yeah? Definitely?
Speaker 1 (24:34):
All right, Wait, so I asked you I joke at
the beginning of your podcast needs to be called go
fuck Yourself. I'm obsessed with that song because of the
fact that, like Stage and I were talking about it beforehand,
everybody always feels like this need for forgiveness and wellness
and sometimes someone is just a fucking asshole who doesn't
deserve it period.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Definitely, how much.
Speaker 1 (24:52):
Fun was to write that song and how liberating to
say that because most people won't admit it. I always
wanted to write a book the powerfuck Off. There's something
that we bring about, you know, just saying like, dude, no.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
And you should. You should absolutely write that book.
Speaker 3 (25:07):
I can co author it with you because I probably
have a lot of shit to say.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
Great, I'm in.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Uh No, it was absolutely liberating.
Speaker 3 (25:19):
I wrote it about one person in particular, but obviously
the more that I see it, the more I listen
to it, the more faces pop into my mind. I did.
Speaker 1 (25:31):
Now as soon as you say that, it's funny because
Atlantis is a friend and I got to interview Carly
Simon for a book I did, and I see it
in the tradition of like now, twenty years from now,
people are going to be like paying you to find
out who it was about.
Speaker 3 (25:44):
Well, I'm very open with my fans, so even if
I don't name names, they have a few faces in mind.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Nice. So what do they win if they get right?
Is there like a you know, making it to a
contest of like you know, who's it about, and like
they win a like backstage trap.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Or whatever, then everyone's gonna be backstage with me. They
all know.
Speaker 1 (26:10):
Nice. But was it something like when it started to
come out, it was just like again with the idea
of writing being subconscious, when it started to come out,
was it just like, Okay, this is just fun and
like you didn't necessarily even expect to write that song,
and then all of a sudden it's like, damn, this
feels good.
Speaker 2 (26:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:28):
No, I think I had written the course like in
the shower or something. I write a lot in the shower.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
I think it's because it's.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
I don't have any like sort of outside distractions. You know,
I'm not like on my phone, I'm not talking to someone,
I'm not engaging with anything. I'm just in my own head,
in my own space and just kind of decompressing and
self reflecting. And yeah, I wrote the course in the shower,
and I had a session with my dear dear friend
Pete Nappy and brought it to him and I was like,
(26:59):
is this an in saying idea?
Speaker 2 (27:01):
He was like, no, it's fantastic. We should run rate
this and yeah. I finished it with him. And then
when it came time to do the music video, h
my friend bly.
Speaker 3 (27:14):
Thomas and I have been doing all of the videos
together and we came up with the idea of doing
a talk with a fifty foot woman and just destroying
this man shit.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And I was like, yes, we have to do this.
Speaker 1 (27:28):
That was so cathartic, It was so fun.
Speaker 2 (27:33):
We had the best time, and.
Speaker 1 (27:36):
I imagine as well other people have just loved the
song as well, because, like I said, there's like everybody
is so into the idea of wellness and forgiveness, which
is great, but some people you can just look in
like certain high places at this point in this country
and see some people just don't fucking deserve forgiveness.
Speaker 2 (27:54):
Period. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (27:56):
And I think you, I think you attract what you
put out in the world. I think you attract like
minded people. So I have a I have a strong
fan base of people that will be screaming go fuck
yourself with me in concert.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Very nice, so true that will become like a single
on the anthem period.
Speaker 2 (28:17):
Definitely.
Speaker 4 (28:20):
It was such a beautiful honesty to all of your music.
I remember the first time I heard Issues so many
years ago like that that really uh, you know, it
touches on something like so real. Do you have your
Has your process changed a lot since that song? Do
you find that you know, like for uh, this song
(28:41):
we were just talking about, it was the chorus and
then that kind of unraveled. Do you always find new
ways into the song or is it pretty common to
how it flows?
Speaker 2 (28:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (28:51):
To be honest, I don't have a process, and I
honestly think that it's kept me sort of sharper as
a writer, especially too, because I never know what I'm
gonna get when I'm working with artists, and so I
(29:13):
don't have any sort of process when I work with
other people, So I don't really have one for myself.
Sometimes I'll have a little nugget of an idea, I'll
have something written down or a line that I really like.
Speaker 2 (29:25):
Sometimes I won't have.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
Any idea at all, and I'll just go on the
mic and I'll sing something down and just kind of
see from there.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Most of the time.
Speaker 3 (29:34):
If I'm writing for myself and I'm writing by myself
with like a producer, I'll sit there for like two
three hours maybe four, in total silence with the guitar
or the piano just looping, and I'll write stuff down
on my phone, or I'll have my eyes closed or
write something down in my head and then I'll kind
of sing it out on the mic and see how
(29:55):
it feels. I never get I just like I like
to have things kind of fully formed. Even when I'm
like singing things down, I'll kind of sit there in
silence with the or I'll sit there just like not
saying anything with the music.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
On and kind of singing things down in.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
My head before I sing them out loud. Every day
is different. It really depends on my mood on Yeah,
how I feel, what I want to write about, what
I want to.
Speaker 2 (30:26):
Say, who I'm with.
Speaker 4 (30:31):
And I imagine that's also true for the actual sound
that you come upon. You know, you know, as the
creator the producer that you are as well like putting
together the sound is I'm sure you know one of
the most interesting parts of this, all this last project. Yeah,
(30:53):
it has a very different but still you sound. I
can talk about like the the discernment and the deciding
on you know, what the tone is going to be,
and then running from there.
Speaker 2 (31:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
To be honest, I think that my lyrics kind of
inform production most of the time.
Speaker 2 (31:16):
Like I don't typically start.
Speaker 3 (31:18):
With like a fully produced thing and be like, oh,
I'm gonna write to this. A lot of the times
we start from scratch or from an idea or just
from a chord progression that feels really good and go
from there. And I think also the producers that I
work with know me know that I like a lot
(31:39):
of like real elements to things, so burn's and drums
and guitars and pianos, like.
Speaker 2 (31:46):
Even choirs.
Speaker 3 (31:48):
I just feel closer to the music when I have
more of those real elements in it. But a lot
of the times too, I'll let the producer have free reign,
like that's collaboration, and I'll see.
Speaker 2 (32:05):
Where their instincts go.
Speaker 3 (32:07):
And if I'm like, WHOA, that's a little a little
left from what I was anticipating, you know, we.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Can always roll it back.
Speaker 3 (32:17):
But I try not to get in the way and
micromanage things too much because I obviously want this to
be fun and creative for everybody involved.
Speaker 1 (32:29):
I have to ask, as a fan, for you, one
artist that you would love to collaborate with, and maybe
not necessarily even someone alive, but one artist in history
that would have been like the most fun for you
to just sit in a studio with.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Oh my gosh, okay.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
And if it's someone alive, that's fine too.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
But yeah, alive alive.
Speaker 3 (32:54):
I mean, you know, probably one of my female heroes,
Fion Apple on It, Franco, Patty Griffin, Atlantis for sure,
you know, Virgina Specter, any one of those.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
Not alive.
Speaker 3 (33:13):
Maybe Judy Garland. I've always just been a massive fan
of her voice. I would have loved to hear her
sing in front of me or Janice Choplin.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Nice. What do you want to add that we didn't
ask you about? And by the way, it's funny because
Sage is obsessed with Judy Garland and I actually just
was talking with Patty's publicist about the interviewing her. She
has a new album coming out and.
Speaker 2 (33:39):
I love her, oh my heart, I can't wait for that.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
Then, so wait, who would be your Dreammarge tour? Which
is for fun, not because they'd be great, like match
or commercial or any shit like that. But just because
you'd have a glass being on the road with them,
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (33:56):
God, like as a human being. But what if I
don't know them as human beings? What if they're total assholes?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
Well, who would you love to take a chance on
the interview? Then you write a song about them called
go Fuck Yourself?
Speaker 2 (34:12):
Probably few on Apple. I'm a big, big fan of
hers or David Byrne love It, love Me some David Byrne.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
I mean he was just on stage with Olivia Ririgo,
so there's a good chance.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
I know. I was like, wow, my dream. I was
so happy for both of them. That was so cool.
Speaker 1 (34:32):
No, it was that such a weird collaboration, but it
made total sense. It was great.
Speaker 2 (34:35):
It was so amazing. I was so jealous in the
best way possible.
Speaker 1 (34:41):
I'm obsessed with Fiond of this. She's I was actually
the third interview that she ever did because I'm such
a I mean to me, she can literally sing anything
that ever created, and was like, it's perfect.
Speaker 3 (34:53):
Absolutely, She's definitely one of my heroes for sure.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
And the boy you want to talk about it badass,
but man, I know only have two minute stuff. What
do you want to add that we didn't ask you about.
Speaker 3 (35:08):
I don't know, Lily, did I miss something I don't
I don't think.
Speaker 2 (35:12):
So that was so fun to listen to.
Speaker 1 (35:14):
I'm not gonna lie. Well, it's so fun to do, so,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:21):
Thanks for having me. I think we got it all.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:26):
Cool. All right, we have a good one.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Enjoy your bye.
Speaker 1 (35:30):
Thank you.
Speaker 2 (35:31):
Bye Steve by stage hy Bye.
Speaker 1 (35:33):
Thanks
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