November 12, 2025 • 42 mins
On this week's In Service Of, the impossible to define Orville Peck, a superb hybrid of country music and indie attitude, joins Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to discuss his new EP, his annual festival, "Rodeo," Dolly Parton, his friendship with Noah Cyrus, learning to be comfortable not fitting in and how wearing a mask has shaped his identity. A fascinating conversation.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, it's Steve Balton. Welcome to in Service. Up this
week's stage, Bob and I are joined by Orville Pack.
This is a fantastic interview where he talks about his
brilliant new EP, Apple Lousa, as well as his love
of Dolly Parton and most importantly, how he learned to
be comfortable not fitting in. Really enjoyed this interview. Very
(00:28):
intelligent guy, very articulate, had a lot to say, very inspiring.
So hope you enjoyed this one as much as we do.
Ste Thanks for being here today. I really love the
(00:51):
EP and it's very interesting to me, you know, in
looking at it. And this may just be my own
projection because of course you can only hear a song
through your eyes. But right, Belisa, was more of a
state of mind, Like it feels like less of a
place and more of like a state of mind at
(01:12):
this moment. So is that how? I mean? Am I
close to accurate? Or am I just doing too many drugs?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
No, you're very you may I mean, you might be
doing too many drugs, but you're also right.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So what is this mind to you? What?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I mean, you know, like I'm obviously known for naming
my album's horse related things, and it's it's always sort of,
you know, the type of horse or whatever is always
kind of representative of something that I'm going through a
period of my life or representative of me somehow or
(01:53):
and that is also, you know, obviously what usually my
songs are about is representative of something I've been going
through or experiencing.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
And so I think for.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Me, I in the last kind of, like I would say,
year and a half, I hit this sort of interesting new.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Lace in my life or take on life.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Of you know, I've sort of felt like I didn't
fit in. I think that's like, you know, I've talked
about that a lot, and a lot of my songs
have been about that over the years, and sort of
that the loneliness I think that comes with that, or
can come with that. And I think what changed for
me in the last year especially is I think I've
(02:44):
completely reversed sort of my feelings around that in the
sense that you know, I don't fit in in most
rooms I feel or even just sort of in a
lot of maybe it's just in myself or whatever, but
actually really.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Happy about that now.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I actually think that that is I'm really grateful for that.
You know, I think that I've been through different periods
in my life of like hating that I didn't fit in,
feeling like that was my weakness, feeling like that was
holding me back, feeling like that was making me lonely.
I spent periods of my life pretending I fit in,
trying to make myself fit in, And I think I've
(03:29):
finally gone to a place where yeah, I'm just I'm
really happy that I don't. And I think, to me,
when I think of like a horse that stands out
uniquely that doesn't fit in, to me, that is an
apple loosa because they have a very distinct unique coat
with spots on it. And so that was sort of
(03:49):
the thinking of this EP is sort of like I
guess this kind of.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Embracing of like singularity.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, you know, that's interesting on so many levels. And
first of all, does any artists ever fit in? I mean,
Chris Cornelsolby and I always love this quote so much
that you know, the best front men, most frontmen come
from the outcast. They never come from like the cool
kids in high school. So as an artist, I think,
(04:23):
by nature you're not supposed to fit in, but absolutely
at what point did you start to get comfortable with that?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I think when I started to do you know, I
think it's exactly to the point you just made and
to the Chris's quote, I think when you start to
step back, and how do I say this? I think
I'll speak for myself, but I do think a lot
of us are our gut reaction when we decide that
(04:55):
we're going to work on ourselves or work on the
things in our lives that are feeling incomplete or hurt
or missing or whatever. I think our initial instinct is
to try and look outside of ourselves and look at
our sort of like position to other people, to relationships,
(05:15):
to things that are sort of out of our control ultimately.
And also I think that leads us down a path
where we start to like focus on our partner, or
focus on, you know, our job, or focus on importing
ourselves to fit into something that we believe is going
to help or fix or fill.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
And I think, after like.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Just you know, really this two year long journey that
I've been on so far, when I got after getting
sober and really trying to take like a.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Deep dive into.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Making myself happier, I think what I've learned is to
start looking inward firstly and almost exclusively for the most part,
in terms of what is it about my life I'm
not happy with. I have to fix it from within.
(06:12):
And you know, I think for me that was involved
me realizing that.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I was.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Always like a little bit ashamed of being different and
being unique, and that manifested itself in millions of different ways.
And so I guess I just started to do work
on this sort of radical self acceptance, but more so
(06:42):
than that, genuinely learning to value myself sort of in
the third person as an exercise to like look at
myself objectively and think, what are the things about this
person that I find, you know, intriguing, beautiful, like comforting.
(07:06):
And it started to form a different perspective on myself,
which I think led me to realize that I've sort
of been putting myself down more than anything most of
my life.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Interesting, I'm gonna ask one more question now than let's
say take over. That's funny because I feel like, even
though it's the first time I spoke, but it's it's
not even that early in la. I'm just brained ad
this morning. But I was going to say, you know,
it's the first time we spoke. You know, I've spoken
with Noah so many times, who I know you're close
with that I kind of feel like I know you.
(07:42):
But it's funny because I feel a times peace with
her this year, and you know, she's become a dear friend,
and it's like, I feel like, you know, we had
such a similar conversation. Are there people or you know,
friends that kind of like become I don't know, almost
mirror in a way where you can look at and
kind of you know, I was just talking with someone
(08:04):
about this this morning on an interview, and there's so
much that you look for in terms of support from
other artists that you feel like have gone through similar things.
And you know, the reason I mentioned that is because
you know, like I did an the other Times piece
of Atlanta, it's not long ago, and you saying, you know,
there are very few people who who understand things she
went through. So she definitely draws to people who had
(08:25):
similar lemos of fame only because they understand it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I mean, I think that's you know, it's funny you
said it would mirror, because that's that's it's sort of
how I described the way I first kind of like
saw Noah like saw her as another soul is. You know,
we were really sort of like drawn to one another.
And when we when we first started kind of hanging
(08:50):
out one on one, we were both sort of in
shock at how similar we were as people and also
how similar a lot of our experiences in life have
been in terms of in relation to other people, in
relation to us as artists, Like Noah like feels like
(09:11):
my sort of platonic soulmate, you know, in a lot
of ways, because I think we are both incredibly sensitive,
empathetic people. We're very true artists in the sense that
we feel an obligation to ourselves to make art that
feels important, if not to everyone, to us most of all.
(09:35):
And yeah, that having those kinds of people around in
my life, I mean, I think have been a massive
part of.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
How I've grown.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
And you know, I think also I definitely I think
about the concept of community a lot more than I
have in recent years. I think it takes me back
to my old punk rock days of like when I
was you know, like in my twenties and playing in
punk band in the DIY scene, and how much I
had such a community around me and I think I
(10:07):
had lost that a lot over my adult life, especially
in this industry, and especially living in a place like
la which can feel sort of isolating and feels sort
of like people are spread around this massive city and
living in their little worlds. And so it's another thing
that has been a big part of me growing is
to sort of like like recognize who that I know.
(10:34):
Who of the people I know are important to me.
Am I making enough effort to make them part of
my community? And am I also returning that same importance
to them, you know, in partnership, And so that's something
I definitely think about and it's something I think has
been very important for me.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
You have such amazing, beautiful, unique sound, and it's a
treat to speak with you and hear these realizations. So
thank you for sharing that. Yeah, pleasure, were a lot
of those things that you're speaking on now, born during
the time of creating Apple LUSA, perhaps even triggered by
(11:17):
that process of creating. And I also was curious your
artistic history is so interesting. As somebody that grew up
in the theater, it's really cool how you have melded
those beautiful parts of theater, the community, the expression into
(11:38):
what you do and your artistic vision and sound. How
much of that, including with Apple LUSA, was born during
the time of your your theater days, and also I
think it was kind of convoluted with you your cabaret
rehearsing and warming. So kind of a long question too.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
No, no, I'm following you. Yeah, No, I think that's
I think that the answer is yes. I think that
they are sort of they intrinsically are results of one
another and also the catalyst for each other as well,
in the sense that I think if you you know
(12:22):
I am, I am a huge defender of changing in
the sense that I think change is important and I
think you can maybe a more positive, friendlier way and
less scary way to name that is growth. You know,
(12:43):
I think evolution is really important, especially as an artist,
and I think for an artist like me who thinks
a lot about sort of wanting to leave a legacy
I'm proud of, you know, I think, and the bigger
picture and not have something feels sort of like momentary.
I think evolution is really important, but I think part
(13:07):
of growth it doesn't and part of change it doesn't
mean leaving behind the old you or leaving behind the
parts that you've come from. I think it means learning
all the right things along the way. And I think
this EP and this time of my life doing Broadway,
going back to acting, doing film, writing this record, in
this moment in time, my personal life, like everything about
(13:30):
my life at the moment, it feels like it's all
sort of like coming together at the right time where
I'm sort of having these realizations and like light bulb
moments of like, oh, that's why that happened ten years
ago to get me to this place, or that's why
I had to go through that, because now that's made
me a more vulnerable songwriter, you know. Like I think
(13:52):
about how this album is, I could talk as well
about how this album is like different from my previous albums.
There's a lot of things about it that are unique
and different, but there are also a lot of things
about it that I've learned from each of my previous albums,
which also represent previous parts of my life in previous
iterations of myself.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So in a way, it's.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
A culmination of all these things that I think feed
that my theatrical background, my love of drama, my love
of vulnerability that I learned on Bronco, my love of
you know, outside influences that I utilized on Pony, like
I've taken little bits of everything I've learned and hopefully
made something new, but with like a lot of things
(14:36):
that I've learned along the way.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Yeah, it really feels that you are in service of
the music and of the community. And I'm sure it's
a very hard question, but if you had to make
a core thesis statement of what that means to you
to be in service of your music and artistry for
your listeners, I'm curious what that message would be.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I mean, I think I think, unknowingly, for most of
my life and most of my career especially, I think
what I've probably served as for a lot of people
who like you know, are fans of mine, or love
(15:22):
my music or connect with what I do. I think
what I've probably served as is sort of a I guess,
a symbol of like doing things your own way, even
if they are not typical or like gonna be received
(15:42):
necessarily even well by everybody. You know, it's sort of
a It's been a blessing and a curse my whole
life that I've kind of been not so much a
contrarian necessarily, but I'm definitely somebody who doesn't like to
be told what to do or how to do it,
and so I've adamantly kind of just done things my
(16:03):
own way, even subconsciously, I think, you know, and I
think I can understand liking an artist like that, because
those are also the artists that I grew up liking,
are people who did something that wasn't comparable to something
before and wasn't able to like even be understood by
(16:25):
everyone because it was sort of just it existed in
its own lane. And I think the difference of like
that realization is that I think I was also for
a long time struggling on how to sort of convince
people that I belonged in the music industry by sometimes
minimizing my uniqueness or like you know, comporting myself in
(16:47):
some ways. And I think I've finally just gone to
a place where I just I don't give a shit,
and I'm actually, really I'm genuinely like grateful. I don't
know what other words views. I'm actually I feel so
lucky that I am that I don't that I don't
fit into a lane like I feel. I feel very yeah,
I feel very proud to be somebody that is sort
(17:09):
of on their own path.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
As you say, though, that's what makes a great artist.
I mean, for everybody, from Miles Davis to John Lennon
to you know, Joni to whoever. I mean, the greatest
artists are always like, well, fuck you, I'm gonna do
what I want. So for you, the people that really
inspired you or that when you started to get comfortable
with that, they realize like, this is the path that
(17:48):
I want to follow. I mean, to me, John Lennon,
I've always said it's the greatest rock star ever because
to come out of the Beatles and do Plastic Band,
to quit music for five years and say I'm going
to be a dad now. When you're the biggest star
in the world, you can't get more badass than that.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I mean, there's no bigger fuck you than to be
in the Beatles and then exactly and then Mary Yoko
Ono and make you know, objectively sort of like intrarian music.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
To literally say I don't believe in the Beatles.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Yep, I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
It's it's the best, and I think, you know, yeah,
it's it's exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah. I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
So as you've kind of gone on your own journey,
are there. There's artists you follow, and it's interesting because
you have the Rodeo coming up next weekend. I believe
it's next weekend, and you know for now, like I know,
Joyol Djukan is on there, who we both interviewed on
the show, Who's amazing. Do you gravitate now when you're
picking people like or artists that you become friends with,
(18:50):
do you gravitate to those artists who also are quote
unquote contrarians but really just big artists?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Absolutely, I mean to me, you know, and it's not
even like it's not even it's not even out of
a sort of I don't know, like a structured mandate
or kind of like a tactic or even really like
an obligation. To me, I want to see I just
(19:17):
want to see different artists at something like that. I
want to see as much diversity, as many as many
different types of stories, as many different types of like
point of view. Sounds like that is the kind of
thing that interests me, you know, So yeah, like I
absolutely like gravitate towards that. I mean, I grew up
(19:39):
loving David Bowie for a reason, you know, it wasn't
because he looked or sounded like everybody else, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
I think it's so fascinating becoming this heightened version kind
of allows more people to tap into it. I love
talking about archetypes, and I don't know if that language
resonates with you, but I'm so curious how you found
your persona, how you I mean, it's everything you're talking about.
(20:14):
Just this is in the world of what a cowboy means.
So it makes total sense that become your archetype. And
I'm curious that that kind of language was a part
of your path and how that was born.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I think, you know, I used to sort of like,
I used to flinch at the word persona for a
long time when people would use that about me, because
I would get defensive because I kind of I was
so like, I was so adamant in making sure that
people realized what I was doing was not a character
and was not you know, it was authentic to me,
(20:52):
and so I used to like adamantly avoid that term.
But I actually think that it's just that my understand
my belief and understanding is that it is a persona,
and the word persona is different from the word character,
because what this is is exactly as you said, it
is a.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It is a.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Magnified and and sort of almost caricatured version of really.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Who I am at my core.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
You know, I think the most sort of easy and
understandable comparison I like to make is Dolly Parton. And
you know, I think something like someone like Dolly is
a perfect example of like, you know, she is this
larger than life, almost cartoon like presence where you know
(21:48):
it's almost but no one for a second questions whether
Dolly Parton is authentic or exactly who she is. That
is like it's almost like her drag version of herself.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
You know, It's like and.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I think there's even comparisons of like her wigs are
like sort of like the what is my mask? You know,
Like it's this kind of larger than life performance version
of a very private and actually vulnerable part of me
that I'm presenting, not hiding behind. I'm actually presenting it
in a way that you can't miss. I'm screaming it
(22:25):
at you.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
It's funny that you say that it's vulnerable, because I've
always found the more vulnerable someone is, the more people
connect with it. So do you find that when you
the way you put it, are started screaming out this
vulnerable side, that people responded to it much more? Oh?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
My god, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I mean that was my biggest thing when I when
I was an actor, when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Really struggled with bringing vulnerability and like myself into auditions
or roles or things like that. And I think it's
actually what helped me back as an actor when I
was younger, and I would go into rooms and to audition,
and you know, my my I wanted to be anything
but myself. I was always trying to construct who I
(23:15):
could be, to be employable, to be likable, to be castable.
And then you know, like the irony is that when
I started to make when I wrote Pony, when I
started this, I took just a complete other direction where
even though I was like, yes, crafting this sort of
visual persona and putting on a mask, and you know,
(23:36):
I made a very adamant choice that I was going
to write about myself, which is something that I'd never
done before. And I immediately felt a shift in terms
of that being what people connected with. And therefore that
being sort of like success in a way, you know,
and so ever since then, I mean, I joke that like,
(23:59):
I will write lyrics until I look at it and
feel genuinely embarrassed that somebody is going to hear that,
And then I know I'm on the right track, because
that tends to be the songs that people gravitate towards liking,
you know, when I am being just sort of like
throwing myself off the cliff hoping the parachute opens and
(24:22):
just trusting that I am intriguing and interesting and appealing enough,
when I'm actually just being my uncensored self.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
All right, So two part questions and I'm gonna let
stage go. But first of all, because it's funny, I
was just talking about this this morning and size in
with this, and it's because for me, it's always come
from like vulnerability. What's your favorite lyric of all time?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
My owner in the world, in.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
The world, just like the one that comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Oh, my god, let me think for a moment, because
I'll give you a good one if I.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Have a sec.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
My god, it's that such a hard question.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I mean, my first the first artist that comes to
mind is Patty Smith.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
For me. So I'm like scanning Patty songs thinking.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Actually, I don't okay, So I don't know if this
is like I don't know if I can definitively say
like this is the one. But I just thought of
a lyric that I think is an incredible lyric that
I feel like resonates with me, and that is a
It's a Leonard toe And lyric from Chelsea Hotel number
(25:36):
two where he says we are ugly, but we have
the music. And I don't know why that always whenever
I hear that song and I hear that part, I
don't know what that says about me and my view
of myself. But there is something I like about lyrics
(25:57):
that are self aware without being self deprecating, but just
also like there's how do I say, There's something about
that lyric that is like it's so small and it
seems like such a slight comment, but it is so
(26:18):
it's got such a powerful weight behind it, I suppose,
and I guess it also speaks towards like probably this
era that I'm in where I feel like a lot.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Of my power.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
On this earth is in the fact that I am
an artist and that you.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Know, regardless of what people may think about.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
My music, whether they like it, whether they you know,
whether it's wins a Grammy, whatever, I think what really
matters to me is that I feel that I do
feel like I have a superpower in the fact that
I get to translate my feelings and my experiences through
music and through artistry.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I feel very I feel like that is a massive power.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And by the way, I love the fact that you
mentioned Patty, who's one of my favorite artists of all time,
because it's funny when you were talking about Tolly Parton
and you know, sort of the caricature Patty is interesting
because she's the sweetest, most welcoming woman in the world
when you get interviewer, and when she's on stage. She
even said like when she's on stage, she becomes like
she's half animal, half human. She's someone who it's such
(27:47):
a different thing. But the second part of the question then,
because again the reason that's about favorite lyric again, people
always just find vulnerability. So what are the lyrics on
Apple Lisa that you felt like you were throwing yourself
off a cliff? Again, with the idea that writing being
as we talk about it all the time, with people stage,
and I write is subconscious, So you write stuff and
(28:07):
then you're like, wait, where the fuck did that come from?
And I realized more and more the more songwriters we
talked to that the best lyrics people are always like,
who the hell wrote that?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
No, you know what? I go through this? Well, no,
I comply, I can't relate to that so much.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, so what are those names for you?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
When you're like, huh, you know, yeah, there's a few
in uh on this EPG.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Actually, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
I have this habit of like inventing sayings that didn't
exist before, but saying them as if they're like, you know,
like a well known saying that we've all like a
proverb we've all known forever, like you know I have.
I have a couple of lyrics that I can think
of that come to mind in the song oh My Days,
which is you know, that song is about when I
fell in love with my current partner that I've been
(28:57):
with for almost five years now, and I'd gotten out
of a really terrible, terrible, abusive relationship, which is what
a lot of Bronco was about that terrible relationship. And
so this was like my first time like extending my
toe back into love, you know, and I was so
frightened and traumatized. And it's it's essentially a a it's
(29:18):
a song. It's a love song about being conflicted about
like being afraid to fall in love again with someone
even though it feels so right, but you're so terrified
to do it. I have a lyric in there that
it kind of is like that making up a saying
I feel like we're I don't even know how it
makes sense in my mind, but I feel like it
does make sense. Is that I say, you can't miss
(29:41):
what's never been yours, but it's hard when you spend
your life walking through doors. And to me that was
sort of like, you know, my whole life, I've just
felt transient.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I've always been.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I've been on tour for twenty years next year, I've
been god ten different cities. My whole life just always
been on the move. And in a way, I think
that was like sort of in some ways that was
an excuse for me to not trust and settle into
love as well, because I could always just use the
(30:16):
excuse that I was constantly moving. I wasn't able to
settle down. But I think it was it was an
excuse to not trust being able to settle down, you know,
So to me, always walking through doors kind of symbolizes.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
As like, you know, just constantly on the move.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
And then you know, there's another lyric in that song
at the end where I say that I feel like
is one of the most vulnerable on the album, where
I say it's hard thinking you'll go away, but it's
just as hard knowing that you want to stay, which
I think a lot of people could probably relate to.
Where you know, with this love that I was feeling
(30:55):
and falling for, I was so so afraid of losing it,
but I was almost equally afraid of receiving it.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, it's funny because you also want Leonard Cohen And
I'm not asking a question. I'm just bring up a
point and then say you can get a shop to
the seven minutes left. But actually, Leonard Cohen, it was
the poem you do Not Have to Love Me, that
first turn beyond him, before even his songs. You know,
of course, the poem is like I prayed that you
would love me. I prayed that you would not love.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Me exactly, And I think that's, you know, the best
kind of love songs is like love is nuanced and complicated.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
It's never just as easy as I love you.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, you know so I like those kind of songs
because I think we get in our way a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Jay guys Man Love Snake's best love song ever.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Mm hmmm, I love that.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
I'm so fascinated by the juxtaposed grandeur and vulnerability thing
that you were starting to share about, and Dolly Parton
is such an amazing example of that, as are you.
But I was curious your your mask. What has that
taught you both as as you and as performer that
you are. That must be such a fascinating thing to
(32:12):
have over an extended period of time, and how that's
kind of allowed you a different perspective on self in
the world.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Oh my god, I truly I feel like I could
probably write a very niche, uh psycho psychology book.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
About it someday.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
It's it's it's been. At the risk of sounding to pompus,
it is.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
It has really been.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
One of the one of the most interesting relationships of
my life with the mask.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
You know, it's.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Started as a very sort of like it It truly
started as as an aesthetic performance idea, uh you know,
and unknowingly it has taught me a lot about myself
as a person, about navigating what we have kind of
(33:12):
societally structured as like fame or you know, public eye world,
that kind of thing, the music industry. It's taught me
a lot about how other people perceive you in the world,
(33:33):
how people who don't know you perceive you, how people
who know you perceive you. I could go on forever
about it, but I think I'm I'm really, I'm really
glad that I did that at the beginning, and I
didn't know how much it would be, I guess, such
an intrinsic, obviously intrinsic part of what I do visually
(33:58):
and as an artist. But yeah, it has, it has
it actually has like kind of meant more for me
philosophically than I probably would have ever anticipated.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I can't wait to read that book someday.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
There's a way I'm going into it for one day.
We have four minutes left on the zoom, so I
don't know if there's like specifically stuff you want to
add or talk about. Maybe talk about Rodeo for a second,
and you know, I mentioned Joy, but who else is
playing there that you know? And what do you look for?
And we talked about the cun quote unquote contrarian, but
are there like what do you look for in the
(34:35):
people that you bring onto it? And you know, obvious
questions and I hate to ever be obvious, but you know,
as a fan, I will ask who's your dream person
to have on there?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Well, So the thing I looked for is.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I look, of course for people that feel like they are,
you know, part of the country genre in some way
or adjacent to because at the end of the day,
it is it is essentially a country festival. But I
also specifically look for a mix of what that sounds
like and looks like. You know, I look for bands
(35:14):
and people who catch my eye or my ear, you know,
like I listen to every single you know, we now
get submissions, which is amazing. It's like a real festival,
and like I listened to every single one that comes
in and give it a lot of thought and take
a look at everyone's you know, whatever social media is,
and like I try to research each band and like
(35:34):
kind of figure out a good mix of people. And
I think, you know, we do a pretty good job
of having a very great balance of.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Different stories to hear.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I think I think I put myself in similarly the
same position I did when I started making country music,
as I asked myself, like, what would I want to
see in country?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
You know that isn't there?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And similarly with this, it's like if I was a festival,
if I was going to the rodeo, what would I
want to see as a as a as someone going
to it? And I kind of I kind of go
from there and hopefully make a weekend that is full
of like, yeah, new stories and new perspectives from these people.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Some other amazing people that are.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Playing, you know, like our other two headliners are Nathaniel
Ratelift and The Night Sweats, who I collaborated with on Stampede.
One of the nicest people in joe business, just so talented,
so kind. Alison Russell, who I also was on Stampede,
who's just you know, I feel like she is just
like a she's like a legend, you know, like she
(36:39):
just already feels like such an iconic figure within music
and activism and like you know, and so we those
are two of the some of them. There's a band
I'm really excited that I immediately wanted to try and
get for the Rodeos Liz Deslandez, who are from New Orleans.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
They are a credible mix of like.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Untry folk bluegrass elements, but also with this kind of
like Louisiana, New Orleans feel. I'm so excited to see
them live because I was listening to their new record
all of last year, and so they were like high
up on my on my wish list in terms of
who would I want to be at the rodeo biggest dream.
(37:24):
I mean, it's it feels like such a it feels
like such an obvious thing now because it's kind of
my answer to all these types of questions.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
But it's Dolly obviously, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I think for me, Dolly Parton not only is like
the fairy godmother of country music, but she I think
she's like one of the last living beacons on this
planet of that resonates just pure kindness and hope and
empathy and and I don't think we have too many
of those left, to be honest, you know, I think
(37:55):
I don't think I've ever met a single person on
this planet who.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Doesn't like Dolly Parton, you know, or dislikes her.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
I should say, like, you know, if I met someone
that was like I hate Dolly Parton. I think we
would all be really concerned about that person in the room.
So you know, I would love Dolly because I think
she's sort of like she sort of encapsulates everything that.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
You know.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
I just did a big piece with Nicky six talking
about his collaboration with Motley Crue and I'm sorry talking
about the collaboration with Dolly, and it's funny even he
And it's funny because like we were talking about it,
and it's like there's no one who doesn't get fucking
starstruck at Dolly, Like.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, it doesn't matter what genre you're in any of that.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Like, I mean, it's the same as Willie Nelson for me,
Like you know, I've been around Willy a lot now obviously,
and like it's it's it's it's sort of just like
I go quiet because I just don't quite know what
to say because it's like it's I can't, I can't,
I can't remove myself enough from the blaring fact that
I'm sitting next to Willie Nelson.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
So it's like it's kind of like dead'll arrived.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah. I interviewed Willie a couple months ago and It's
funny though, because Dolly I got up at like six
in the morning the interview, you know, in La time,
because she likes to do stuff early Nashville time, and
I was like, dude, I don't care what time it is,
and Nicki was saying the same thing. But it's really
funny as someone who you know, when we'll wrap up
in a minute, you were saying you used to play
in punk bands. And it's funny because Nicki and I
(39:41):
were talking about this, and you know, like as a kid, right,
I don't know about you, but I was very stupid
as a kid, and I'm like, oh, I can only
like metal, fuck everything else. And now, of course, when
you're older, you realize, like as Nicki and I were
talking about, literally the biggest rock star to me and
the history of the world, you do not meet anybody
(40:02):
who doesn't say Johnny Cash was the coolest fucking person
who ever lived.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Oh my god, fully so true.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
So for you, have you always been that type who's
been like very open new music or like.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
You, oh my god, yeah, I mean like I grew
up loving country music obviously, but like, uh, like the
most obscure anarchist punk bands like nineties, grunge, an alternative
South African traditional music, classical music, Broadway musical theater.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
I mean, like, there isn't a genre of music I
don't like.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
You know, yeah, I agree with you now, like I say,
but as a kid, you now, at least for me,
I was stupid and I was like, oh, I only
can like Iron Made It and Molly Crue and you know.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Of course I was under this, Like I was under
this idea when I was in high school that there
was like a known code that you could either like
the Misfits or the Smiths. You weren't allowed to like both.
It was like to siding factor, barometer of what kind
of person you were. So that's the kind of that's
the kind of thinking I had as a teenager.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, and then of course you realize, like, wait, you know,
I'm not a think fan of Morrisey is a person, so.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, he doesn't make it easy as a person, but
yeah we do like he's singing.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I mean, the guy can write, so there's no for sure. Cool. Well,
I didn't say anything you want to have to wrap
up or like.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
I mean, I think it's fascinating that we were probably
also vibing to Judy Garland when we were young as well,
just the eclecticism of our.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Oh my god, yeah, I love It's.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
So fascinating how E collected your your story is and
I can't wait to see the things you get up to.
You do so many different things.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
I know.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
It's a I'm trying to be a trying to get
my medical degree next, so we'll see how that can.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Thank you guys so much, appreciate it. This has been
great talk excellent.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Thank you so much. Nice meeting you, and uh yeah
I have.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
A great tea. You guys
Hey, it's Steve Balton. Welcome to in Service. Up this
week's stage, Bob and I are joined by Orville Pack.
This is a fantastic interview where he talks about his
brilliant new EP, Apple Lousa, as well as his love
of Dolly Parton and most importantly, how he learned to
be comfortable not fitting in. Really enjoyed this interview. Very
(00:28):
intelligent guy, very articulate, had a lot to say, very inspiring.
So hope you enjoyed this one as much as we do.
Ste Thanks for being here today. I really love the
(00:51):
EP and it's very interesting to me, you know, in
looking at it. And this may just be my own
projection because of course you can only hear a song
through your eyes. But right, Belisa, was more of a
state of mind, Like it feels like less of a
place and more of like a state of mind at
(01:12):
this moment. So is that how? I mean? Am I
close to accurate? Or am I just doing too many drugs?
Speaker 2 (01:18):
No, you're very you may I mean, you might be
doing too many drugs, but you're also right.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
So what is this mind to you? What?
Speaker 3 (01:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (01:29):
I mean, you know, like I'm obviously known for naming
my album's horse related things, and it's it's always sort of,
you know, the type of horse or whatever is always
kind of representative of something that I'm going through a
period of my life or representative of me somehow or
(01:53):
and that is also, you know, obviously what usually my
songs are about is representative of something I've been going
through or experiencing.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
And so I think for.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
Me, I in the last kind of, like I would say,
year and a half, I hit this sort of interesting new.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Lace in my life or take on life.
Speaker 2 (02:17):
Of you know, I've sort of felt like I didn't
fit in. I think that's like, you know, I've talked
about that a lot, and a lot of my songs
have been about that over the years, and sort of
that the loneliness I think that comes with that, or
can come with that. And I think what changed for
me in the last year especially is I think I've
(02:44):
completely reversed sort of my feelings around that in the
sense that you know, I don't fit in in most
rooms I feel or even just sort of in a
lot of maybe it's just in myself or whatever, but
actually really.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
Happy about that now.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
I actually think that that is I'm really grateful for that.
You know, I think that I've been through different periods
in my life of like hating that I didn't fit in,
feeling like that was my weakness, feeling like that was
holding me back, feeling like that was making me lonely.
I spent periods of my life pretending I fit in,
trying to make myself fit in, And I think I've
(03:29):
finally gone to a place where yeah, I'm just I'm
really happy that I don't. And I think, to me,
when I think of like a horse that stands out
uniquely that doesn't fit in, to me, that is an
apple loosa because they have a very distinct unique coat
with spots on it. And so that was sort of
(03:49):
the thinking of this EP is sort of like I
guess this kind of.
Speaker 3 (03:56):
Embracing of like singularity.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Well, you know, that's interesting on so many levels. And
first of all, does any artists ever fit in? I mean,
Chris Cornelsolby and I always love this quote so much
that you know, the best front men, most frontmen come
from the outcast. They never come from like the cool
kids in high school. So as an artist, I think,
(04:23):
by nature you're not supposed to fit in, but absolutely
at what point did you start to get comfortable with that?
Speaker 2 (04:32):
I think when I started to do you know, I
think it's exactly to the point you just made and
to the Chris's quote, I think when you start to
step back, and how do I say this? I think
I'll speak for myself, but I do think a lot
of us are our gut reaction when we decide that
(04:55):
we're going to work on ourselves or work on the
things in our lives that are feeling incomplete or hurt
or missing or whatever. I think our initial instinct is
to try and look outside of ourselves and look at
our sort of like position to other people, to relationships,
(05:15):
to things that are sort of out of our control ultimately.
And also I think that leads us down a path
where we start to like focus on our partner, or
focus on, you know, our job, or focus on importing
ourselves to fit into something that we believe is going
to help or fix or fill.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
And I think, after like.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
Just you know, really this two year long journey that
I've been on so far, when I got after getting
sober and really trying to take like a.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
Deep dive into.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Making myself happier, I think what I've learned is to
start looking inward firstly and almost exclusively for the most part,
in terms of what is it about my life I'm
not happy with. I have to fix it from within.
(06:12):
And you know, I think for me that was involved
me realizing that.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I was.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
Always like a little bit ashamed of being different and
being unique, and that manifested itself in millions of different ways.
And so I guess I just started to do work
on this sort of radical self acceptance, but more so
(06:42):
than that, genuinely learning to value myself sort of in
the third person as an exercise to like look at
myself objectively and think, what are the things about this
person that I find, you know, intriguing, beautiful, like comforting.
(07:06):
And it started to form a different perspective on myself,
which I think led me to realize that I've sort
of been putting myself down more than anything most of
my life.
Speaker 1 (07:21):
Interesting, I'm gonna ask one more question now than let's
say take over. That's funny because I feel like, even
though it's the first time I spoke, but it's it's
not even that early in la. I'm just brained ad
this morning. But I was going to say, you know,
it's the first time we spoke. You know, I've spoken
with Noah so many times, who I know you're close
with that I kind of feel like I know you.
(07:42):
But it's funny because I feel a times peace with
her this year, and you know, she's become a dear friend,
and it's like, I feel like, you know, we had
such a similar conversation. Are there people or you know,
friends that kind of like become I don't know, almost
mirror in a way where you can look at and
kind of you know, I was just talking with someone
(08:04):
about this this morning on an interview, and there's so
much that you look for in terms of support from
other artists that you feel like have gone through similar things.
And you know, the reason I mentioned that is because
you know, like I did an the other Times piece
of Atlanta, it's not long ago, and you saying, you know,
there are very few people who who understand things she
went through. So she definitely draws to people who had
(08:25):
similar lemos of fame only because they understand it absolutely.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
I mean, I think that's you know, it's funny you
said it would mirror, because that's that's it's sort of
how I described the way I first kind of like
saw Noah like saw her as another soul is. You know,
we were really sort of like drawn to one another.
And when we when we first started kind of hanging
(08:50):
out one on one, we were both sort of in
shock at how similar we were as people and also
how similar a lot of our experiences in life have
been in terms of in relation to other people, in
relation to us as artists, Like Noah like feels like
(09:11):
my sort of platonic soulmate, you know, in a lot
of ways, because I think we are both incredibly sensitive,
empathetic people. We're very true artists in the sense that
we feel an obligation to ourselves to make art that
feels important, if not to everyone, to us most of all.
(09:35):
And yeah, that having those kinds of people around in
my life, I mean, I think have been a massive
part of.
Speaker 3 (09:43):
How I've grown.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
And you know, I think also I definitely I think
about the concept of community a lot more than I
have in recent years. I think it takes me back
to my old punk rock days of like when I
was you know, like in my twenties and playing in
punk band in the DIY scene, and how much I
had such a community around me and I think I
(10:07):
had lost that a lot over my adult life, especially
in this industry, and especially living in a place like
la which can feel sort of isolating and feels sort
of like people are spread around this massive city and
living in their little worlds. And so it's another thing
that has been a big part of me growing is
to sort of like like recognize who that I know.
(10:34):
Who of the people I know are important to me.
Am I making enough effort to make them part of
my community? And am I also returning that same importance
to them, you know, in partnership, And so that's something
I definitely think about and it's something I think has
been very important for me.
Speaker 4 (10:55):
You have such amazing, beautiful, unique sound, and it's a
treat to speak with you and hear these realizations. So
thank you for sharing that. Yeah, pleasure, were a lot
of those things that you're speaking on now, born during
the time of creating Apple LUSA, perhaps even triggered by
(11:17):
that process of creating. And I also was curious your
artistic history is so interesting. As somebody that grew up
in the theater, it's really cool how you have melded
those beautiful parts of theater, the community, the expression into
(11:38):
what you do and your artistic vision and sound. How
much of that, including with Apple LUSA, was born during
the time of your your theater days, and also I
think it was kind of convoluted with you your cabaret
rehearsing and warming. So kind of a long question too.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
No, no, I'm following you. Yeah, No, I think that's
I think that the answer is yes. I think that
they are sort of they intrinsically are results of one
another and also the catalyst for each other as well,
in the sense that I think if you you know
(12:22):
I am, I am a huge defender of changing in
the sense that I think change is important and I
think you can maybe a more positive, friendlier way and
less scary way to name that is growth. You know,
(12:43):
I think evolution is really important, especially as an artist,
and I think for an artist like me who thinks
a lot about sort of wanting to leave a legacy
I'm proud of, you know, I think, and the bigger
picture and not have something feels sort of like momentary.
I think evolution is really important, but I think part
(13:07):
of growth it doesn't and part of change it doesn't
mean leaving behind the old you or leaving behind the
parts that you've come from. I think it means learning
all the right things along the way. And I think
this EP and this time of my life doing Broadway,
going back to acting, doing film, writing this record, in
this moment in time, my personal life, like everything about
(13:30):
my life at the moment, it feels like it's all
sort of like coming together at the right time where
I'm sort of having these realizations and like light bulb
moments of like, oh, that's why that happened ten years
ago to get me to this place, or that's why
I had to go through that, because now that's made
me a more vulnerable songwriter, you know. Like I think
(13:52):
about how this album is, I could talk as well
about how this album is like different from my previous albums.
There's a lot of things about it that are unique
and different, but there are also a lot of things
about it that I've learned from each of my previous albums,
which also represent previous parts of my life in previous
iterations of myself.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
So in a way, it's.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
A culmination of all these things that I think feed
that my theatrical background, my love of drama, my love
of vulnerability that I learned on Bronco, my love of
you know, outside influences that I utilized on Pony, like
I've taken little bits of everything I've learned and hopefully
made something new, but with like a lot of things
(14:36):
that I've learned along the way.
Speaker 4 (14:39):
Yeah, it really feels that you are in service of
the music and of the community. And I'm sure it's
a very hard question, but if you had to make
a core thesis statement of what that means to you
to be in service of your music and artistry for
your listeners, I'm curious what that message would be.
Speaker 2 (15:01):
I mean, I think I think, unknowingly, for most of
my life and most of my career especially, I think
what I've probably served as for a lot of people
who like you know, are fans of mine, or love
(15:22):
my music or connect with what I do. I think
what I've probably served as is sort of a I guess,
a symbol of like doing things your own way, even
if they are not typical or like gonna be received
(15:42):
necessarily even well by everybody. You know, it's sort of
a It's been a blessing and a curse my whole
life that I've kind of been not so much a
contrarian necessarily, but I'm definitely somebody who doesn't like to
be told what to do or how to do it,
and so I've adamantly kind of just done things my
(16:03):
own way, even subconsciously, I think, you know, and I
think I can understand liking an artist like that, because
those are also the artists that I grew up liking,
are people who did something that wasn't comparable to something
before and wasn't able to like even be understood by
(16:25):
everyone because it was sort of just it existed in
its own lane. And I think the difference of like
that realization is that I think I was also for
a long time struggling on how to sort of convince
people that I belonged in the music industry by sometimes
minimizing my uniqueness or like you know, comporting myself in
(16:47):
some ways. And I think I've finally just gone to
a place where I just I don't give a shit,
and I'm actually, really I'm genuinely like grateful. I don't
know what other words views. I'm actually I feel so
lucky that I am that I don't that I don't
fit into a lane like I feel. I feel very yeah,
I feel very proud to be somebody that is sort
(17:09):
of on their own path.
Speaker 1 (17:25):
As you say, though, that's what makes a great artist.
I mean, for everybody, from Miles Davis to John Lennon
to you know, Joni to whoever. I mean, the greatest
artists are always like, well, fuck you, I'm gonna do
what I want. So for you, the people that really
inspired you or that when you started to get comfortable
with that, they realize like, this is the path that
(17:48):
I want to follow. I mean, to me, John Lennon,
I've always said it's the greatest rock star ever because
to come out of the Beatles and do Plastic Band,
to quit music for five years and say I'm going
to be a dad now. When you're the biggest star
in the world, you can't get more badass than that.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
It's true.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
I mean, there's no bigger fuck you than to be
in the Beatles and then exactly and then Mary Yoko
Ono and make you know, objectively sort of like intrarian music.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
To literally say I don't believe in the Beatles.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
Yep, I love it.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
It's it's the best, and I think, you know, yeah,
it's it's exactly.
Speaker 3 (18:25):
Yeah. I couldn't agree more.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
So as you've kind of gone on your own journey,
are there. There's artists you follow, and it's interesting because
you have the Rodeo coming up next weekend. I believe
it's next weekend, and you know for now, like I know,
Joyol Djukan is on there, who we both interviewed on
the show, Who's amazing. Do you gravitate now when you're
picking people like or artists that you become friends with,
(18:50):
do you gravitate to those artists who also are quote
unquote contrarians but really just big artists?
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Absolutely, I mean to me, you know, and it's not
even like it's not even it's not even out of
a sort of I don't know, like a structured mandate
or kind of like a tactic or even really like
an obligation. To me, I want to see I just
(19:17):
want to see different artists at something like that. I
want to see as much diversity, as many as many
different types of stories, as many different types of like
point of view. Sounds like that is the kind of
thing that interests me, you know, So yeah, like I
absolutely like gravitate towards that. I mean, I grew up
(19:39):
loving David Bowie for a reason, you know, it wasn't
because he looked or sounded like everybody else, that's for sure.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
You know.
Speaker 4 (19:49):
I think it's so fascinating becoming this heightened version kind
of allows more people to tap into it. I love
talking about archetypes, and I don't know if that language
resonates with you, but I'm so curious how you found
your persona, how you I mean, it's everything you're talking about.
(20:14):
Just this is in the world of what a cowboy means.
So it makes total sense that become your archetype. And
I'm curious that that kind of language was a part
of your path and how that was born.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Yeah, I think that's exactly right.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I think, you know, I used to sort of like,
I used to flinch at the word persona for a
long time when people would use that about me, because
I would get defensive because I kind of I was
so like, I was so adamant in making sure that
people realized what I was doing was not a character
and was not you know, it was authentic to me,
(20:52):
and so I used to like adamantly avoid that term.
But I actually think that it's just that my understand
my belief and understanding is that it is a persona,
and the word persona is different from the word character,
because what this is is exactly as you said, it
is a.
Speaker 3 (21:13):
It is a.
Speaker 2 (21:15):
Magnified and and sort of almost caricatured version of really.
Speaker 3 (21:25):
Who I am at my core.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
You know, I think the most sort of easy and
understandable comparison I like to make is Dolly Parton. And
you know, I think something like someone like Dolly is
a perfect example of like, you know, she is this
larger than life, almost cartoon like presence where you know
(21:48):
it's almost but no one for a second questions whether
Dolly Parton is authentic or exactly who she is. That
is like it's almost like her drag version of herself.
Speaker 3 (21:59):
You know, It's like and.
Speaker 2 (22:03):
I think there's even comparisons of like her wigs are
like sort of like the what is my mask? You know,
Like it's this kind of larger than life performance version
of a very private and actually vulnerable part of me
that I'm presenting, not hiding behind. I'm actually presenting it
in a way that you can't miss. I'm screaming it
(22:25):
at you.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
It's funny that you say that it's vulnerable, because I've
always found the more vulnerable someone is, the more people
connect with it. So do you find that when you
the way you put it, are started screaming out this
vulnerable side, that people responded to it much more? Oh?
Speaker 3 (22:45):
My god, absolutely.
Speaker 2 (22:46):
I mean that was my biggest thing when I when
I was an actor, when I was younger.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
I.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
Really struggled with bringing vulnerability and like myself into auditions
or roles or things like that. And I think it's
actually what helped me back as an actor when I
was younger, and I would go into rooms and to audition,
and you know, my my I wanted to be anything
but myself. I was always trying to construct who I
(23:15):
could be, to be employable, to be likable, to be castable.
And then you know, like the irony is that when
I started to make when I wrote Pony, when I
started this, I took just a complete other direction where
even though I was like, yes, crafting this sort of
visual persona and putting on a mask, and you know,
(23:36):
I made a very adamant choice that I was going
to write about myself, which is something that I'd never
done before. And I immediately felt a shift in terms
of that being what people connected with. And therefore that
being sort of like success in a way, you know,
and so ever since then, I mean, I joke that like,
(23:59):
I will write lyrics until I look at it and
feel genuinely embarrassed that somebody is going to hear that,
And then I know I'm on the right track, because
that tends to be the songs that people gravitate towards liking,
you know, when I am being just sort of like
throwing myself off the cliff hoping the parachute opens and
(24:22):
just trusting that I am intriguing and interesting and appealing enough,
when I'm actually just being my uncensored self.
Speaker 1 (24:35):
All right, So two part questions and I'm gonna let
stage go. But first of all, because it's funny, I
was just talking about this this morning and size in
with this, and it's because for me, it's always come
from like vulnerability. What's your favorite lyric of all time?
Speaker 3 (24:51):
My owner in the world, in.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
The world, just like the one that comes to mind?
Speaker 2 (24:56):
Oh, my god, let me think for a moment, because
I'll give you a good one if I.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
Have a sec.
Speaker 3 (25:03):
My god, it's that such a hard question.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
I mean, my first the first artist that comes to
mind is Patty Smith.
Speaker 3 (25:10):
For me. So I'm like scanning Patty songs thinking.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Actually, I don't okay, So I don't know if this
is like I don't know if I can definitively say
like this is the one. But I just thought of
a lyric that I think is an incredible lyric that
I feel like resonates with me, and that is a
It's a Leonard toe And lyric from Chelsea Hotel number
(25:36):
two where he says we are ugly, but we have
the music. And I don't know why that always whenever
I hear that song and I hear that part, I
don't know what that says about me and my view
of myself. But there is something I like about lyrics
(25:57):
that are self aware without being self deprecating, but just
also like there's how do I say, There's something about
that lyric that is like it's so small and it
seems like such a slight comment, but it is so
(26:18):
it's got such a powerful weight behind it, I suppose,
and I guess it also speaks towards like probably this
era that I'm in where I feel like a lot.
Speaker 3 (26:30):
Of my power.
Speaker 2 (26:33):
On this earth is in the fact that I am
an artist and that you.
Speaker 3 (26:39):
Know, regardless of what people may think about.
Speaker 2 (26:43):
My music, whether they like it, whether they you know,
whether it's wins a Grammy, whatever, I think what really
matters to me is that I feel that I do
feel like I have a superpower in the fact that
I get to translate my feelings and my experiences through
music and through artistry.
Speaker 3 (27:04):
I feel very I feel like that is a massive power.
Speaker 1 (27:23):
And by the way, I love the fact that you
mentioned Patty, who's one of my favorite artists of all time,
because it's funny when you were talking about Tolly Parton
and you know, sort of the caricature Patty is interesting
because she's the sweetest, most welcoming woman in the world
when you get interviewer, and when she's on stage. She
even said like when she's on stage, she becomes like
she's half animal, half human. She's someone who it's such
(27:47):
a different thing. But the second part of the question then,
because again the reason that's about favorite lyric again, people
always just find vulnerability. So what are the lyrics on
Apple Lisa that you felt like you were throwing yourself
off a cliff? Again, with the idea that writing being
as we talk about it all the time, with people stage,
and I write is subconscious, So you write stuff and
(28:07):
then you're like, wait, where the fuck did that come from?
And I realized more and more the more songwriters we
talked to that the best lyrics people are always like,
who the hell wrote that?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
No, you know what? I go through this? Well, no,
I comply, I can't relate to that so much.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, so what are those names for you?
Speaker 2 (28:27):
When you're like, huh, you know, yeah, there's a few
in uh on this EPG.
Speaker 3 (28:34):
Actually, you know, it's funny.
Speaker 2 (28:36):
I have this habit of like inventing sayings that didn't
exist before, but saying them as if they're like, you know,
like a well known saying that we've all like a
proverb we've all known forever, like you know I have.
I have a couple of lyrics that I can think
of that come to mind in the song oh My Days,
which is you know, that song is about when I
fell in love with my current partner that I've been
(28:57):
with for almost five years now, and I'd gotten out
of a really terrible, terrible, abusive relationship, which is what
a lot of Bronco was about that terrible relationship. And
so this was like my first time like extending my
toe back into love, you know, and I was so
frightened and traumatized. And it's it's essentially a a it's
(29:18):
a song. It's a love song about being conflicted about
like being afraid to fall in love again with someone
even though it feels so right, but you're so terrified
to do it. I have a lyric in there that
it kind of is like that making up a saying
I feel like we're I don't even know how it
makes sense in my mind, but I feel like it
does make sense. Is that I say, you can't miss
(29:41):
what's never been yours, but it's hard when you spend
your life walking through doors. And to me that was
sort of like, you know, my whole life, I've just
felt transient.
Speaker 3 (29:55):
I've always been.
Speaker 2 (29:55):
I've been on tour for twenty years next year, I've
been god ten different cities. My whole life just always
been on the move. And in a way, I think
that was like sort of in some ways that was
an excuse for me to not trust and settle into
love as well, because I could always just use the
(30:16):
excuse that I was constantly moving. I wasn't able to
settle down. But I think it was it was an
excuse to not trust being able to settle down, you know,
So to me, always walking through doors kind of symbolizes.
Speaker 3 (30:28):
As like, you know, just constantly on the move.
Speaker 2 (30:31):
And then you know, there's another lyric in that song
at the end where I say that I feel like
is one of the most vulnerable on the album, where
I say it's hard thinking you'll go away, but it's
just as hard knowing that you want to stay, which
I think a lot of people could probably relate to.
Where you know, with this love that I was feeling
(30:55):
and falling for, I was so so afraid of losing it,
but I was almost equally afraid of receiving it.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
Yeah, it's funny because you also want Leonard Cohen And
I'm not asking a question. I'm just bring up a
point and then say you can get a shop to
the seven minutes left. But actually, Leonard Cohen, it was
the poem you do Not Have to Love Me, that
first turn beyond him, before even his songs. You know,
of course, the poem is like I prayed that you
would love me. I prayed that you would not love.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
Me exactly, And I think that's, you know, the best
kind of love songs is like love is nuanced and complicated.
Speaker 3 (31:33):
It's never just as easy as I love you.
Speaker 2 (31:36):
Yeah, you know so I like those kind of songs
because I think we get in our way a lot.
Speaker 1 (31:42):
Jay guys Man Love Snake's best love song ever.
Speaker 3 (31:45):
Mm hmmm, I love that.
Speaker 4 (31:49):
I'm so fascinated by the juxtaposed grandeur and vulnerability thing
that you were starting to share about, and Dolly Parton
is such an amazing example of that, as are you.
But I was curious your your mask. What has that
taught you both as as you and as performer that
you are. That must be such a fascinating thing to
(32:12):
have over an extended period of time, and how that's
kind of allowed you a different perspective on self in
the world.
Speaker 2 (32:20):
Oh my god, I truly I feel like I could
probably write a very niche, uh psycho psychology book.
Speaker 3 (32:27):
About it someday.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
It's it's it's been. At the risk of sounding to pompus,
it is.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
It has really been.
Speaker 2 (32:40):
One of the one of the most interesting relationships of
my life with the mask.
Speaker 3 (32:46):
You know, it's.
Speaker 2 (32:46):
Started as a very sort of like it It truly
started as as an aesthetic performance idea, uh you know,
and unknowingly it has taught me a lot about myself
as a person, about navigating what we have kind of
(33:12):
societally structured as like fame or you know, public eye world,
that kind of thing, the music industry. It's taught me
a lot about how other people perceive you in the world,
(33:33):
how people who don't know you perceive you, how people
who know you perceive you. I could go on forever
about it, but I think I'm I'm really, I'm really
glad that I did that at the beginning, and I
didn't know how much it would be, I guess, such
an intrinsic, obviously intrinsic part of what I do visually
(33:58):
and as an artist. But yeah, it has, it has
it actually has like kind of meant more for me
philosophically than I probably would have ever anticipated.
Speaker 4 (34:10):
I can't wait to read that book someday.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
There's a way I'm going into it for one day.
We have four minutes left on the zoom, so I
don't know if there's like specifically stuff you want to
add or talk about. Maybe talk about Rodeo for a second,
and you know, I mentioned Joy, but who else is
playing there that you know? And what do you look for?
And we talked about the cun quote unquote contrarian, but
are there like what do you look for in the
(34:35):
people that you bring onto it? And you know, obvious
questions and I hate to ever be obvious, but you know,
as a fan, I will ask who's your dream person
to have on there?
Speaker 3 (34:45):
Well, So the thing I looked for is.
Speaker 2 (34:49):
I look, of course for people that feel like they are,
you know, part of the country genre in some way
or adjacent to because at the end of the day,
it is it is essentially a country festival. But I
also specifically look for a mix of what that sounds
like and looks like. You know, I look for bands
(35:14):
and people who catch my eye or my ear, you know,
like I listen to every single you know, we now
get submissions, which is amazing. It's like a real festival,
and like I listened to every single one that comes
in and give it a lot of thought and take
a look at everyone's you know, whatever social media is,
and like I try to research each band and like
(35:34):
kind of figure out a good mix of people. And
I think, you know, we do a pretty good job
of having a very great balance of.
Speaker 3 (35:45):
Different stories to hear.
Speaker 2 (35:47):
I think I think I put myself in similarly the
same position I did when I started making country music,
as I asked myself, like, what would I want to
see in country?
Speaker 3 (35:57):
You know that isn't there?
Speaker 2 (35:58):
And similarly with this, it's like if I was a festival,
if I was going to the rodeo, what would I
want to see as a as a as someone going
to it? And I kind of I kind of go
from there and hopefully make a weekend that is full
of like, yeah, new stories and new perspectives from these people.
Speaker 3 (36:17):
Some other amazing people that are.
Speaker 2 (36:18):
Playing, you know, like our other two headliners are Nathaniel
Ratelift and The Night Sweats, who I collaborated with on Stampede.
One of the nicest people in joe business, just so talented,
so kind. Alison Russell, who I also was on Stampede,
who's just you know, I feel like she is just
like a she's like a legend, you know, like she
(36:39):
just already feels like such an iconic figure within music
and activism and like you know, and so we those
are two of the some of them. There's a band
I'm really excited that I immediately wanted to try and
get for the Rodeos Liz Deslandez, who are from New Orleans.
Speaker 3 (36:57):
They are a credible mix of like.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Untry folk bluegrass elements, but also with this kind of
like Louisiana, New Orleans feel. I'm so excited to see
them live because I was listening to their new record
all of last year, and so they were like high
up on my on my wish list in terms of
who would I want to be at the rodeo biggest dream.
(37:24):
I mean, it's it feels like such a it feels
like such an obvious thing now because it's kind of
my answer to all these types of questions.
Speaker 3 (37:33):
But it's Dolly obviously, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:34):
I think for me, Dolly Parton not only is like
the fairy godmother of country music, but she I think
she's like one of the last living beacons on this
planet of that resonates just pure kindness and hope and
empathy and and I don't think we have too many
of those left, to be honest, you know, I think
(37:55):
I don't think I've ever met a single person on
this planet who.
Speaker 3 (38:00):
Doesn't like Dolly Parton, you know, or dislikes her.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
I should say, like, you know, if I met someone
that was like I hate Dolly Parton. I think we
would all be really concerned about that person in the room.
So you know, I would love Dolly because I think
she's sort of like she sort of encapsulates everything that.
Speaker 1 (38:30):
You know.
Speaker 5 (38:30):
I just did a big piece with Nicky six talking
about his collaboration with Motley Crue and I'm sorry talking
about the collaboration with Dolly, and it's funny even he
And it's funny because like we were talking about it,
and it's like there's no one who doesn't get fucking
starstruck at Dolly, Like.
Speaker 1 (38:49):
Yeah, it doesn't matter what genre you're in any of that.
Speaker 2 (38:54):
Like, I mean, it's the same as Willie Nelson for me,
Like you know, I've been around Willy a lot now obviously,
and like it's it's it's it's sort of just like
I go quiet because I just don't quite know what
to say because it's like it's I can't, I can't,
I can't remove myself enough from the blaring fact that
I'm sitting next to Willie Nelson.
Speaker 3 (39:15):
So it's like it's kind of like dead'll arrived.
Speaker 1 (39:19):
Yeah. I interviewed Willie a couple months ago and It's
funny though, because Dolly I got up at like six
in the morning the interview, you know, in La time,
because she likes to do stuff early Nashville time, and
I was like, dude, I don't care what time it is,
and Nicki was saying the same thing. But it's really
funny as someone who you know, when we'll wrap up
in a minute, you were saying you used to play
in punk bands. And it's funny because Nicki and I
(39:41):
were talking about this, and you know, like as a kid, right,
I don't know about you, but I was very stupid
as a kid, and I'm like, oh, I can only
like metal, fuck everything else. And now, of course, when
you're older, you realize, like as Nicki and I were
talking about, literally the biggest rock star to me and
the history of the world, you do not meet anybody
(40:02):
who doesn't say Johnny Cash was the coolest fucking person
who ever lived.
Speaker 3 (40:06):
Oh my god, fully so true.
Speaker 1 (40:10):
So for you, have you always been that type who's
been like very open new music or like.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
You, oh my god, yeah, I mean like I grew
up loving country music obviously, but like, uh, like the
most obscure anarchist punk bands like nineties, grunge, an alternative
South African traditional music, classical music, Broadway musical theater.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
I mean, like, there isn't a genre of music I
don't like.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
You know, yeah, I agree with you now, like I say,
but as a kid, you now, at least for me,
I was stupid and I was like, oh, I only
can like Iron Made It and Molly Crue and you know.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Oh my god.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
Of course I was under this, Like I was under
this idea when I was in high school that there
was like a known code that you could either like
the Misfits or the Smiths. You weren't allowed to like both.
It was like to siding factor, barometer of what kind
of person you were. So that's the kind of that's
the kind of thinking I had as a teenager.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, and then of course you realize, like, wait, you know,
I'm not a think fan of Morrisey is a person, so.
Speaker 2 (41:15):
Yeah, he doesn't make it easy as a person, but
yeah we do like he's singing.
Speaker 1 (41:20):
I mean, the guy can write, so there's no for sure. Cool. Well,
I didn't say anything you want to have to wrap
up or like.
Speaker 4 (41:30):
I mean, I think it's fascinating that we were probably
also vibing to Judy Garland when we were young as well,
just the eclecticism of our.
Speaker 3 (41:41):
Oh my god, yeah, I love It's.
Speaker 4 (41:44):
So fascinating how E collected your your story is and
I can't wait to see the things you get up to.
You do so many different things.
Speaker 3 (41:52):
I know.
Speaker 2 (41:53):
It's a I'm trying to be a trying to get
my medical degree next, so we'll see how that can.
Speaker 3 (41:58):
Thank you guys so much, appreciate it. This has been
great talk excellent.
Speaker 1 (42:03):
Thank you so much. Nice meeting you, and uh yeah
I have.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
A great tea. You guys
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