February 19, 2025 • 38 mins
On this week's in Service Of Lumineers frontman Wesley Schultz joins hosts Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to talk about the band's superb new album and some very real talk about the ups and downs of being in a band and how to keep things fresh after 20 years.
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Today on in service of we're honored to talk to
Wesley Schultz, the lead vocalist and guitarist of the Lumineers.
The band recently released their fifth studio album, Automatic, and
we talk about how this album differed in its creative
process from past albums. We also talk about how music
is a form of service and Wesley's path from humble
beginnings to international fame. Join us with this intimate and
(00:29):
insightful conversation as we uncovered the inspiration, challenges, and stories
behind Automatic and beyond.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
This is Steve with Sage, Bava and West from Lumineers.
How you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Today, I'm doing well. Thanks? How are you? Oh good?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Where are you?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Denver? Denver, Colorado?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Cool? Is it freezing there?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It's not too bad. It's been nice. Yeah, it's been
cold in the past, but this week's been super mild.
And heading out to New York in a couple of
days where it's probably probably freezing.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I can attest to that. Not bundled up here. We've
actually had a winter though, so that's very nice.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, it's I grew up in New Jersey, so I
love those winners. It's like it feels like a diet
version in Denver because you don't really get a lot
of snow ironically, and it's not humid, so don't feel
that cold most of the time.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So where'd you grow up? In New Jersey?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
A town called Ramsey, New Jersey, near Mahwa. Suffern Allen
that like Ridgewood, there's a few towns around it. But
Bruce Springsteen has Johnny ninety nine. He references Mahwa in
the opening line that was like our neighboring town.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
But no Springsteen song that references red for Ramsey.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No, no, no reference to Ramsey. We were exiting one
sixty three off the New Jersey Turnpike.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
So way you might have to do one.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Then what was that?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I said, you might have to do one?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Then oh yeah, I know. We've actually never named dropped Ramsey.
Oddly enough, we've referenced New Jersey. There's a song called
Donna and they say we drove from New Jersey. There
was a line on that jar. Actually, it was one
of the few things he insisted. He said, can we
use that because he doesn't write a lot of lyrics.
I was like, yeah, they don't sing New Jersey that much.
(02:35):
In songs, but let's try to make it work nice.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So what do you do in New York starting promo stuff?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Or mm hmm, yeah, we're we're gonna do some shows
and interviews and I think we're doing fallon on that
Friday the album comes out or Thursday.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Have you had any chance to do much of the
new stuff live yet?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
We've played it in Mexico. We played the whole album live,
and then we've played parts of it and like songs
from it here and there, but nothing like front to
back like in Mexico. So and that went really well, weirdly,
So normally it takes a while to like sort of
(03:20):
get everybody on the same page and be able to
pull it off live. But it was so fun. It
was it was so fun to play it live, so
kind of made us excited for what's next.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
It's funny you say weirdly. Why weirdly just because it's
you know, people don't necessarily know the new stuff yet.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Or yeah, I mean me and Jared write the music
in the studio, and I think so we had Byron
who plays bass, and and that was kind of it
from our touring band, and so the rest of it
is between me and Jar and with the bass playing Byron.
So there's just like a lot to piece together afterwards
(03:57):
in rehearsals, Hey, you playing this, you're playing that because
on the on the record, you can kind of do
whatever you want and you don't really know how you're
going to recreate it live. So like this first song,
same old song, Jared did a drum beat that was
really straight, straightforward, almost like a drum machine. It was
like and then over that he's doing all this wild drumming,
(04:19):
and one person can't do all that, so we have
like our drum our, drumm and guitar tech Derek who
used to play with the Eels. He's an amazing drummer,
so he plays that straight part and Jerry gets to
play wildly around around him. Stuff like that that you
just make up on the In rehearsals, you try to
figure out how to do the thing that you already
did on the record.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We're just gonna make it fun though, because you have
no idea what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, that was a lot like how the record was.
We didn't have any idea what we were really doing.
Just a pretty big departure from how we made records
in the past because we would I think we always
viewed time as money in the studio, so we were like,
let's just prepare overly so and record it twenty thirty
times at all different speeds and keys and instrumentations, and
(05:10):
by the time we get to the studio, we'll know
what we're doing. And then this time we didn't have
any idea, and it was it turned out a lot
better because we didn't have that thing they called demoitis
where you're you're chasing this thing that you already did
and you're trying to recreate something that you already did
well once but you can't do it again. It just happened.
So it was for that reason, like the most innocently
(05:32):
made album. There was so much like just joy and
curiosity on it that when you in the past it
became more like clinical. It was like, Okay, I got
to do this because I know I want to do
it this way, and this was more like WHOA did
you hear that? Like on same old song I sang.
I messed up the pronunciation of some words even in
the take, but it was my first try doing it,
(05:54):
and it was my placeholder take, and that's the one
everybody liked after I resang it the next day, like, no,
we like the we like the first one. So that
was a lot of how the attitude of this record,
that's how it was made.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I was just gonna say, I remember interviewing Daniel Lenois,
who's one of the greatest producers of all time, and
the way he described it was happy accidents, and he
was talking about the fact that he loves when you're
in the studio and what you were talking about with
the mispronunciation on same old song. It's like those were
some of his favorite moments, the happy accidents.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, I remember, you know Bill Withers, you know, he's
like my baby, baby, baby babe. It's the only time
the clapping happens. And it was very clear that that
was just like him feeling the music. And it's like
that stuff is the good stuff. It reminds me of
candid photos versus like posed photos. You know, I like,
(06:50):
it's just when you walk and if anybody listening or
you guys have this, it's all good. I probably have
in my house. But those photos families take on a
beach or somewhere random and they're all dressed in khakis
and that to me, there's nothing more less interesting. And
then when you see a real picture of people interacting,
a candid shot, that's the best. And that's kind of
(07:11):
like music. For me, it's the it's the moments when
you completely forget you're recording or you didn't intend on
releasing it. I mean, our first album had slow it
Down on it that we recorded in our kitchen and
it's all one take and it's just like there's birds
in the background chirping because it was bleeding into the mic.
There's all these things that happen on it that you
(07:34):
would when we tried to redo it. It didn't have
the that alchemy, that magic that you get when you're
when you're unencumbered by like the pressures of a studio
and like the absurdity of being like okay, go act natural,
go like there's just nothing. That's why I also in
movies when you see these takes that the director doesn't
(07:55):
yell cut and they let them keep going, and that's
when the real good stuff happens. But that takes a
brave director and really good actors. And I felt like
we were finally in a place, probably more with ourselves
than anything else. Me and Jery where we could. We
did a ton of live takes together and ended up
keeping nose a lot way more than ever like overdubbing
(08:17):
or multi tracking, because it was just so much richer.
There was like better stuff on there, and like just
more personality to it than when you're like, Okay, now
I'm going to do this one word, get it right.
There's nothing cool about that.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Was there an initial song that springboarded this new way
of creating and recording and producing.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I think so we made bright Side, and I would say,
like a sort of diet version of this. Bright Side
was a little off the cuff and a little less planned,
but it still had some scaffolding, you know what I mean.
It was like loosely planned. And then this was just
truly I think there's enough decent melodies, you know, in
our voice notes that we can just go and make
(08:58):
some songs. And every time we began with each song,
it was it was like, okay, what's the key? Well,
I don't know, So we just would someone would sit
at a piano and I would try to sing, and
we'd find the way that point at which your voice
is barely making the note happen, but it has the
most emotion, and we would usually go with that, and
(09:21):
then you'd try to figure out a speed. I mean,
even something like the song Asshole, and there's a few
of them on here like this. Some of them don't
have a click track where that one. It varies a
lot between the verses and the choruses, and that kind
of gives some engineers and producers heart palpitations, because not
in a good way, because they're like, oh, you can't
(09:42):
do that. This is gonna be hard to add things too,
and this people ain't gonna get it. It can't go
slower like fast as good. They have a lot of
strange ideas in their head, and I think credit to
David Baron especially, who's engineer and producer one of one
of the producers on this with Simon and ourselves, and
it was like He's like, well, I can I could
(10:05):
just record you guys playing that song as you naturally
would speed up and slow down, and I'm going to
create a temple map that does exactly what you're doing.
So if you want to do it again, there's a
kind of way to do this. And so it was
kind of a mixture of you know, using modern technology
in some ways to make it feel really old school
(10:26):
if you really wanted to do stuff and post. And
then some of it was just like He's on the
Table is a song on the record, and it's just
done completely in the same room live, and it has
like a real old school feel to it, where there's
actually bleed on the different mics and you can hear
my voice on his piano take and things like that.
(10:46):
You know that it shouldn't be that uncommon, but it's
not that common, and I would say popular music these days.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, that's the song I really wanted to ask about.
That's my favorite one. Could you talk about the writing
process of that where you were what inspired.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, I would say, so the hook is in two
different songs, is a hook in You're all I Got
another song, and then that phrase You're all I Got
is repurposed in this song, and I think it's it's
one of those things where once you sing in a
few times and then you try to do something else
with those syllables and that melody in a different song,
(11:24):
it's like, oh, that's just too good. So I just
was like, let's just use it. It works. It's like it's
a big theme on the record. It's like twenty years
of Jared and I'm making music together. And I think
between having kids, between that and being in a actual
marriage and then being in a musical marriage, there's a
(11:45):
lot of, you know, tension in different ways with loving someone.
You know, it's kind of like they're the best thing
that ever happened to you, and you also they can
annoy you that there's things about being beholden to like
my kids that if my daughter asks me if I'm
(12:07):
the most tired I've ever been in my life and
you ask me for something, I kind of some milk
and I just sat down. I'm getting too that like
there's a there's a feeling of I will do anything
for you. I just am programmed that way. And at
the same time, if she crosses the street and doesn't
look both ways, I'm like terrified. So there's this element
of you're beholden to them in this way that is
(12:29):
very inconvenient to like feeling safe. You know, like you're not.
You don't always feel safe when your your happiness and
your well being resides on someone else in some ways,
and with a band, I think that causes a lot
of tension when you collaborate. Collaboration is magical, and then
if something good happens. What I see often happens is
(12:49):
like when bands take off, the success is actually what
breaks them apart. It's not the lean years, it's not
the hard years. It's like everyone's scrambling to take credit
for what they did when something does well. And so
like it's been a constant, it's a long journey of
trying to have a good relationship with one another over
(13:11):
twenty years, where you can try to stay humble around
like each person's contribution and appreciate each other and value
each other, while like your ego wants to believe that
like it's you the whole time. You know, there's like
this selfishness in all of us. So I think that's
why you don't see bands last a whole that long
(13:31):
most of the time, just because it's really hard to
always be doing that. It's a little exhausting, but it's
obviously rewarding. Like this is the Jared and I I
told him, I said, if we died in like a
fiery plane crash, this would be such a fine record
for me to leave with, Like I'm good with this.
This is the best thing we've done so proud of it,
(13:52):
and like I'm at peace with that part, you know,
Like and that's twenty years in, Like I'm so shocked
that what I felt like is our best work is
still might be ahead of us, because you just don't know.
You see all these bands and an artists that as
they age, they react to that a lot differently depending
on the artist, like Tom Petty Wild Flowers later in
(14:15):
his career, incredible, Bob Dylan time out of Mind is
like insane. So I don't know, like there's there's there's
artists that can do it later in life. Paul Simon's
been doing it great for a while, Neil Young, But
it's pretty hard to hold on to that edge and
(14:35):
like and be creatively in touch and be like we're
talking about earlier, I think, be curious, like be I
keep I think it's probably like cheesy to say, and
every time I say it, I don't feel like it
feels the way it's It doesn't sound the way it
feels to me. But when you're making music, when you're
playing music as supposed to be playing like you're like
a kid, you're playing like and if you feel that
(14:58):
way deep into it, I think you're and something right
and when it becomes mechanical and just boring and a job,
it's not the same. So I think there's something to
that and how you find that innocence and like I
would say, like childlike wonderment around whatever you're doing. You're
(15:18):
gonna be better at what you do. Like I have
friends who are chefs and they're just like, taste this,
and they've been doing that forever and it's still like
so exciting to them. And that's the same with music,
and if you're lucky, if you could feel that way
about what you're doing. And so I think you're always
trying to reinvent how you're doing it because if you
(15:38):
keep doing it the same way, you sort of like
master that little side of things and then it's kind
of boring and then you're just kind of like creative
a formula around it.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
But I mean, there's so much to go off with that,
and it's interesting. It's an artist, first of all, you
can never be satisfied, so you always have an internal
struggle to better yourself not to you know, it's not
a competition. It's funny. I interview Chocola con this week,
and you know it's Grammy Week, and she got really
fucking pissed when I was talking about competition. She's like,
(16:18):
artists should never be in competition. But I was like,
as an artist, you're always trying to better yourself. It's
an internal struggle. So I think that is always there
for most people, you know, And so I think that's
where that sense of like discovery comes from, because you
always feel like you can never be satisfied. You can
never feel like, Okay, I've achieved perfection. No one's achieved perfection,
(16:41):
you know. I think the closest ever was John Coltrane
Love Supreme, and even he was like all right, cool
going back to the studio after that. But the other
thing that you were talking about that really cracks me up.
I have always said the most underrated band in rock
history is Easy Top, and not just because they have
great songs, because those were three dudes who stayed in
(17:03):
a band from sixty nine to twenty twenty two when
someone died and never broke up. Those guys should have
fucking handled the Middle East peace process.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And the Rolling Stones been like it's psycho, how you
have like the Beatles and the Stones? Yeah, I mean
there are stories like our tour manager worked with them,
and there's some beautiful stories too of like recent stories
of them finding ways to stay connected. But imagining that the.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Beatles rich a song you don't Move Me, It's hilarious,
okay and go yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
I think imagining realizing that the Beatles and the Stones,
you know, were you know, the Beatles were older by
a little bit, but like they were contemporaries and they
made this huge impact in like seven or nine years
or whatever it was, and the Stones have just ploded on.
(18:02):
I mean I saw him a few years ago when
Charlie was still alive and it's still is like they
it's got to be for the love more than anything,
because they have all the money in the world and
they're just like I think my tour manager said, well,
they kind of said, like, well, what else are we
gonna do? This is what we do. We play music,
you know, like and it was even that was kind
(18:23):
of sweet and Paul McCartney still chugging away on his tours.
It's crazy and he's I know what that does to
your body, like as a singer and as a you're
traveling and so for those guys to be doing it
as they do it absolutely crazy. It's like the Tom
Brady of music, you know, where it's like it's and
(18:44):
how good they all sound. I was watching Mick Jagger
is a few months after his heart surgery, and I
was like, that guy had heart surgery. It's just insane.
So I think that longevity is kind of elusive, whether
it's Zzy Top or or those bands. But I you know,
I would guess a lot a lot of them would
have if you could get it out of them. They
(19:06):
probably have some wisdom as far as like why it
is that they stay together because to me, it's kind
of easier to break up. This took an easy off ramp.
Fuck you, I'm out, Like you don't have to fix anything.
You could just be the hero, the misunderstood, misunderappreciated hero
and go on your way like the Eagles, like breaking
(19:28):
up coming back together. There was like a lot of
like is to me that was hard to watch as
like a fan, I was like why why why the
bitner like you guys like did the you guys got
to do what so many people want to do and
you're so sad about all of it, Like this is
not good, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
So it's interesting who for you. Are those role models
that you look at or are those because you've gotten
to play with a lot of musicians, you toured with
a lot of musicians. Are there people you've gotten to
talk to to get that insight? And it's funny because
having interviewed Okay, the most functional duo I ever interviewed
was David Lee Roth and a Van Halen's when they
did the reunion tour. I flew to Philadelphia to see
(20:08):
the show because I was like, they're not gonna make
it to La. Those guys needed each other.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
It's like a bad marriage at that point. It's like
someone cheated on someone. You know, There's there's just something
poisoned in the well. I think at that point I
got we got to open for you two for like
a dozen or so shows. In twenty seventeen, they were
doing the Joshua Tree Reunion tour, so they went from
selling arenas at that point to jumping right into stadiums
(20:38):
because fans love that record. I've always loved it. It's
like thirty years anniversary of it, and I think one
of the things I don't know for sure, but like
one of the things that I realized was like they
were working really hard at their music still and really
wanted it to be great. You know. It wasn't like
(21:01):
they weren't mailing it in. I remember they were. They
were like backstage with people from like local radio stations
playing them like acoustic versions of their songs that on
this record they were going to put out and playing
new music for them, And I was kind of like,
won't those guys just play the songs anyway? Like what's
(21:21):
going on here? They were just such hard working, you know,
just go for it kind of people. That's one side
of it. I don't even think I'm willing to do.
I don't like, I don't like the promotional like to
death aspect of it. But I see it in the
bands that stay huge, like Metallica YouTube. Those bands like
(21:43):
really work hard at promoting things, and that's a real skill.
I just don't know if I'm like cut out for that.
But on the other side, I noticed that they just
when you listen to Joshua Tree that for that tour.
I went to every show that on that after we
open for them, and it was like, you listen to
(22:03):
that music, that music is so not how you script
it to be big music. It's just like people feeling
out an idea and working through it. If you listen
to like a pop song today, it is such a
different path than that. And I'm like, so that it
really showed me, like how they they're just a few
(22:25):
friends that make that made this music together and that
curiosity led them to these heights. That there's sincerity to
it because it feels very unplanned. It's not like I'm
trying to make a hit for you. It's like they
were trying to do something between them that was special
to them. And that's like, to me, that's the mountaintop
is when you it's like a Little Miss Sunshine becoming
(22:46):
one of the most popular movies of that era that
wasn't supposed to be what it was, and that's why
it's so special in a cool way. So I think
you can feel it when someone's ambitious and the ambition
is dripping off the music of like it has to
be big. It just it kind of grosses people out.
And there's other things that you're like, I mean, I
(23:06):
listened to Nick Drake so much and I think my
kids are like turn that depressing me. But to me,
it's like that is like that and Rodriguez are like
filling my cup. You know, I don't know why, it's
just like does something to me that I think. I mean,
I just saw The Dead I'm not a huge deadhead
or anything, but I I've seen a number of shows
(23:28):
and like I just I just give the caveat that
I'm not super well versed in or everything, but I
seen a few shows over my life, and even that
is like, it's so unlikely that that becomes what it is,
and that's why it's kind of cool. It's like not
something that was designed for you to like. It was
designed for them to like because they like it, you
(23:49):
know what I mean, and to be interesting. And I
think that maybe if you start there, you kind of
can't go wrong, even if it gets big, small, whatever.
It's like to me, that is the that is like
the crucial element that I work with some young songwriters
helping them co write at times or producing or both,
and that's the one thing you try to like instill
(24:12):
in them is like the mini start chasing a hit.
It's not gonna be a hit anyway, so what's the point.
Just like, just just make stuff that you love and
maybe an audience will come find it.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
All right, I'm gonna let's say shakeover one second. But
I have to ask you because I am fucking obsessed
with Nick Drake. That's why she was smiling. There was
actually there's this huge post. There's this like and I
found in a book soup in la It was seven
hundred and fifty dollars. There's only seven hundred copies in
the world that I'm the only one, apparently in the US,
(24:45):
because there's so few images of Nick Drake. I was like, wait,
I have to then, and they were trying to like
sell it to me by upselling, by telling me like, oh,
some of a Firth, Earth Wind and Fire is about
to buy it. I'm like, a right, whatever, dude, I'm
leaving it. I mean stually interviewed Joe Boyd multiple times
about Nick Drake. So one Nick Drake song you wish
you could have written him?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Why I like that song Parasite? I think when I
was in my mid to late twenties, because I didn't
get signed till I was like thirty. So when I'm
in my hometown, my dad is dying, I'm just a loser,
(25:28):
living at my parents' house, working at the a butcher shop,
A Starbucks, and I'm a waiter at this restaurant all
in my hometown, so I'm seeing all these moms and
these people that kind of know me and feel sorry
for me, and I'm like, like, when I hear that song,
(25:50):
I Am a peticide, it is like it's like you
just it encapsulated so much of how I was feeling.
But he said it in a way that was so
much more poetic than like I could have imagined. So
I wish I think it would be that one.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
There's so many artists and I'm sure Nick Jerk does
this as well. Of like this feeling that it's not
really coming from them. I feel like it has to
be something larger than yourself to like be the motivating factor,
and it feels like your music is really teeming with that,
channeling this specific frequency. That's kind of why this podcast
(26:33):
is called in service of, because when you're doing this
work that's so heart centered and so effective to the world,
it's always coming from something maybe more than how would
you define what you're in service of? I love how
you talked about being like a childlike awe and really
tapping into that, but I'm curious what else you would say.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I mean my so my brother was deeply Christian, deeply devout,
like you know his dad. I don't think he'd mind
me saying his dad walked out on his family when
he was like five years old. And he has two sisters,
and so he was kind of like the man of
the house super young, and religion I think was a
(27:20):
big part of how he made it through life in
such a beautiful has made it so far. He's like
a Green Beret now and like a colonel. He's killing
it and he's the best dad. He's the dad of
four kids with my sister. And I remember we were
in a drive home and I was like in that
(27:40):
kind of mid twenties and he's just everyone else was
asleep in the car, and he's like, can you just
tell me? Like why are you doing music? Like I know,
I know what people think you play music for, but
like what's the point for you? And I was trying
to make an analogy because he goes to church, and
I was like, it's kind of like this communion of people.
(28:02):
It's like church, but not centered around God. It's like
it's like a connection among people and there's like something
deep and higher about that. Whether you associate that with
religion or not. It's like an it's an important. It's
like musicians and they call actors were players. I think
(28:24):
so musicians and players used to go town to town
and kind of singing for their supper. And the whole
reward was like getting fed, and that was you know,
a place to sleep, getting fed if you were lucky
for those things. What I love whatever romanticized about that
in my head head at least, was like you were
the reason why all these townspeople who barely saw each
(28:47):
other throughout the year saw each other and reconnected and
laughed and drank a beer and it was like this
true bringing communion of people. And so as far as
music goes the live aspect, that's what it means to
me is like you're you're inadvertently connecting communities back to
(29:07):
your stitching them back together and in a time when
like maybe that's needed more than ever. The other part
of it is musically. My dad was a psychologist, and
I wanted I wanted his practice to be like Schultzen's
son psychology, Like I was like so into I wanted
to listen and just be there for somebody and try
(29:27):
to I thought that was like such a cool role
to play in people's lives. It's like to hear them
and help them figure out on their almost like on
their own, but with their at their side, how to
work through something. And that that taught me like, Okay,
in order to do that, you have to have a
lot of empathy, and it kind of builds this muscle
(29:48):
of empathy and a curiosity. I think it was empathy
and a curiosity about people that was like deep within
my house with my dad, especially with what he did.
And so I was always writing poetry in class, like rhyming.
I love words. And then I kind of was like
wouldn't it be? It got in my head like wouldn't
it be if I don't do that? Because now I
(30:10):
started liking music. What if empathy and sort of like
finding all these interesting contradictions and people and sort of
tapping into emotion could be a part of the music,
Like what if that is like the intention you set,
not you know, not like overtly, but it's kind of
like underneath all that music has taught me how to cry,
(30:32):
you know. It's like taught me how to feel deeply
when all I wanted to do was like turn that
valve off and keep it off. And I was like, well,
that's a gift, you know, And so part of me
just wanted to It wasn't about like teaching anyone per se,
but like tapping into more of that and music, that
(30:53):
sort of empathy that I saw my dad doing for
all these people on an individual level. It was like,
so like and our album two came out in Cleopatra,
I'm singing from like a female's perspective. Obviously it's not
my story, but I like that you can with music,
you can you can dive into someone else's world and
try to explain it and observe it and describe it.
(31:15):
Just like on album three, it was about addiction, about
my mother in law and her battle with alcoholism. It's
like all of that it's very to me. There's like
the reason I wrote say songs about my mother in
law was because I didn't understand it, and it was
a way for me to try to feel empathy. It
wasn't a way for me to try to criticize her.
It was a way to like try to describe it
(31:37):
as honestly as I could, so that if she heard
these songs which I don't even know if she ever did,
because she had demension was drinking a gallon of vodka day.
If she had heard it, my whole hope was like
she'd be like, that's fair, Like I see that. I
don't feel like he was off about that. It's an
(31:58):
ugly truth, but it's a true. So I don't know.
Sorry for the long explanation, but it's I think it's
a big part of like what I find frustrating about
celebrity around music. It's like it began on the opposite trip.
It was like you were the poor people coming through,
bringing people together, and that was enough, and now it's
(32:20):
got to be like MTV cribs essentially, and that's not
the point. And it actually it distracts you from making music.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
What a beautiful answer. I feel so filled up with humanity.
What would you tell your twenty five year old self,
now that we've gotten a little picture at what he was.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Like, Uh, I would say, like, just hold on. I
always said music. Trying to make music at that time
was like a war of attrition. Like I saw all
my musical friends and creative friends like slowly kind of
dropping like flies, and I was like, I know almost
like I'm not like gonna go win some singing contest,
but I no, I'm okay at this, Like I just
(33:01):
got to stick around long enough. So I was like
I think I would. I would just keep echoing, like
just keep going. You know, you'll only regret it if
you get off the ride, Like you gotta keep going
and see it through. Because if it wasn't one way,
I just felt like I had I might have ended
up behind the scenes writing for other people. But I
knew I could write, you know. I always felt good
(33:24):
about that. I just I just also knew i'd never
win like a singing competition or a guitar playing competition.
It wasn't like I wasn't a virtuoso that way, And
so like going to guitar center, I always just go like,
this is not my world, like people shredding and I'm
just like this not like this is like I'd rather
read it. You know, I love reading poetry and stuff.
(33:46):
I can understand that a lot more. And the music
was always kind of like a way to get these
lyrics out there.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
All right, now we're gonna have we only have like
five minutes left on the thing. So but I do
have to ask you one question Before we wrap up,
you talked about music making you cry. What is that
one song that does it to you every time?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
There's a few man one is Otis Redding has this random,
live like b side of I've Got Dreams to Remember
and it's like different chords in it. It's gorgeous. I
heard it at Pizzaia one time and I just always
put it on. Another one is A Frightened Rabbit. I
wish that I was sober. I think it's the name,
(34:33):
or it might just be called Sober. And another one
is AA BONDI Mightiest of Guns. I used to listen
to Mightiest of Guns on an entire tour, and I
would like cry before I took the stage. And that
sounds like either not real or stupid, but I did
(34:54):
it because I started We started playing arenas, and I
was like, it feels very anonymous, like you're into like
a blob of humans. It's not like a We used
to play house shows. You could see everybody's face and
you kind of feel like anonymous is a good way
to put it. And so I realized that, like, if
I could find emotion before I took the stage, then
(35:15):
I wasn't acting up there. I was just like extending
that emotion into the set. But if I was like, hey,
I'm joking around my friends and we're just hanging out
and the I'm like I'll see on stage like it
doesn't work. Now I'm like, I really mean this, but
I don't really mean Like there's something about it that
you have to kind of like warm up in a
different kind of way to get to get your head
(35:37):
right to mean it. So I was trying to mean it,
and so those I actually listen to all those songs,
but especially the Mightiest of Guns is an insane song.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
I don't know that one. I actually I'm gonna go
listen to it after we wrap up because now I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, that whole album, that a Bondy album with that
song on it is crazy good, like amazing.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
All right, last question for me, what do you want
people to take from this album when they hear it?
What do you take from it?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I think they'll take what they usually take from it,
and that's like their their lives will be, you know,
the four memories I think around it and attach certain
of their own. I hope they pick up on, like
some of the humor in it, because there's like a
fair amount of self deprecation. And it was when I
grew up listening to like the Talking Heads with my
dad and he was talking about I go to the
(36:38):
building I want to loved ones and he's singing like
the most absurd dystopian reality, but he's singing in this
like happy way about going to this corporate building, going
to work and you can come visit me in my
work because I'm important, And it's like my dad would
always laugh with me, and we saw the humor in it.
Or like Warren Zevonne is much more obvious, like the
(36:59):
human with lawyers, guns and money, and there's a ton
of like his music is littered with this beautiful humor,
and I think there's it's just made its way into
these songs in different ways. And I really like enjoyed
doing that, and I don't think it ever I have
ever really thought to do it or was able to
do it before. So I help hope people pick up
(37:20):
on a little bit of that.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Cool We have like a minute left stage, anything you
want to ask before we wrap.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Up a beautiful record. Such an honor to talk to.
It's amazing when people are in service of positivity and
thank you for doing that.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Oh, thanks a lot. Yeah, I appreciate it. And uh,
I'm sure you're you don't need to hear this, but
I wish you the best of luck and keep going
and just do it for yourself and you never lose,
you know what I mean. And I could say that
because it's been twenty years with me and Jared and
somehow we still were like, hell yeah, high fight. I
think that's I think that's what I hope all my
(37:58):
favorite bands, you know, and some in their own way
felt charged up by what they're doing and not just
out of obligation because that's all they know.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Oh man, Well, it's always good to talk to you.
Thank you so much. And I love that that reference
Deepon and Nick Drake because those are two of my
all time favorites.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Hell yeah, I gotta see that book you got sometime.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Happen It was insane. Yeah all right, cool man. Well,
thank you very much
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
Today on in service of we're honored to talk to
Wesley Schultz, the lead vocalist and guitarist of the Lumineers.
The band recently released their fifth studio album, Automatic, and
we talk about how this album differed in its creative
process from past albums. We also talk about how music
is a form of service and Wesley's path from humble
beginnings to international fame. Join us with this intimate and
(00:29):
insightful conversation as we uncovered the inspiration, challenges, and stories
behind Automatic and beyond.
Speaker 3 (00:47):
This is Steve with Sage, Bava and West from Lumineers.
How you doing.
Speaker 1 (00:52):
Today, I'm doing well. Thanks? How are you? Oh good?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Where are you?
Speaker 1 (00:58):
Denver? Denver, Colorado?
Speaker 3 (01:00):
Cool? Is it freezing there?
Speaker 1 (01:02):
It's not too bad. It's been nice. Yeah, it's been
cold in the past, but this week's been super mild.
And heading out to New York in a couple of
days where it's probably probably freezing.
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Yes, it is.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
I can attest to that. Not bundled up here. We've
actually had a winter though, so that's very nice.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
Yeah, it's I grew up in New Jersey, so I
love those winners. It's like it feels like a diet
version in Denver because you don't really get a lot
of snow ironically, and it's not humid, so don't feel
that cold most of the time.
Speaker 3 (01:38):
So where'd you grow up? In New Jersey?
Speaker 1 (01:41):
A town called Ramsey, New Jersey, near Mahwa. Suffern Allen
that like Ridgewood, there's a few towns around it. But
Bruce Springsteen has Johnny ninety nine. He references Mahwa in
the opening line that was like our neighboring town.
Speaker 3 (01:56):
But no Springsteen song that references red for Ramsey.
Speaker 1 (01:59):
No, no, no reference to Ramsey. We were exiting one
sixty three off the New Jersey Turnpike.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
So way you might have to do one.
Speaker 1 (02:09):
Then what was that?
Speaker 3 (02:11):
I said, you might have to do one?
Speaker 1 (02:12):
Then oh yeah, I know. We've actually never named dropped Ramsey.
Oddly enough, we've referenced New Jersey. There's a song called
Donna and they say we drove from New Jersey. There
was a line on that jar. Actually, it was one
of the few things he insisted. He said, can we
use that because he doesn't write a lot of lyrics.
I was like, yeah, they don't sing New Jersey that much.
(02:35):
In songs, but let's try to make it work nice.
Speaker 3 (02:40):
So what do you do in New York starting promo stuff?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
Or mm hmm, yeah, we're we're gonna do some shows
and interviews and I think we're doing fallon on that
Friday the album comes out or Thursday.
Speaker 3 (02:54):
Have you had any chance to do much of the
new stuff live yet?
Speaker 1 (02:59):
We've played it in Mexico. We played the whole album live,
and then we've played parts of it and like songs
from it here and there, but nothing like front to
back like in Mexico. So and that went really well, weirdly,
So normally it takes a while to like sort of
(03:20):
get everybody on the same page and be able to
pull it off live. But it was so fun. It
was it was so fun to play it live, so
kind of made us excited for what's next.
Speaker 3 (03:30):
It's funny you say weirdly. Why weirdly just because it's
you know, people don't necessarily know the new stuff yet.
Speaker 1 (03:36):
Or yeah, I mean me and Jared write the music
in the studio, and I think so we had Byron
who plays bass, and and that was kind of it
from our touring band, and so the rest of it
is between me and Jar and with the bass playing Byron.
So there's just like a lot to piece together afterwards
(03:57):
in rehearsals, Hey, you playing this, you're playing that because
on the on the record, you can kind of do
whatever you want and you don't really know how you're
going to recreate it live. So like this first song,
same old song, Jared did a drum beat that was
really straight, straightforward, almost like a drum machine. It was
like and then over that he's doing all this wild drumming,
(04:19):
and one person can't do all that, so we have
like our drum our, drumm and guitar tech Derek who
used to play with the Eels. He's an amazing drummer,
so he plays that straight part and Jerry gets to
play wildly around around him. Stuff like that that you
just make up on the In rehearsals, you try to
figure out how to do the thing that you already
did on the record.
Speaker 3 (04:40):
We're just gonna make it fun though, because you have
no idea what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1 (04:46):
Yeah, that was a lot like how the record was.
We didn't have any idea what we were really doing.
Just a pretty big departure from how we made records
in the past because we would I think we always
viewed time as money in the studio, so we were like,
let's just prepare overly so and record it twenty thirty
times at all different speeds and keys and instrumentations, and
(05:10):
by the time we get to the studio, we'll know
what we're doing. And then this time we didn't have
any idea, and it was it turned out a lot
better because we didn't have that thing they called demoitis
where you're you're chasing this thing that you already did
and you're trying to recreate something that you already did
well once but you can't do it again. It just happened.
So it was for that reason, like the most innocently
(05:32):
made album. There was so much like just joy and
curiosity on it that when you in the past it
became more like clinical. It was like, Okay, I got
to do this because I know I want to do
it this way, and this was more like WHOA did
you hear that? Like on same old song I sang.
I messed up the pronunciation of some words even in
the take, but it was my first try doing it,
(05:54):
and it was my placeholder take, and that's the one
everybody liked after I resang it the next day, like, no,
we like the we like the first one. So that
was a lot of how the attitude of this record,
that's how it was made.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
I was just gonna say, I remember interviewing Daniel Lenois,
who's one of the greatest producers of all time, and
the way he described it was happy accidents, and he
was talking about the fact that he loves when you're
in the studio and what you were talking about with
the mispronunciation on same old song. It's like those were
some of his favorite moments, the happy accidents.
Speaker 1 (06:26):
Yeah, I remember, you know Bill Withers, you know, he's
like my baby, baby, baby babe. It's the only time
the clapping happens. And it was very clear that that
was just like him feeling the music. And it's like
that stuff is the good stuff. It reminds me of
candid photos versus like posed photos. You know, I like,
(06:50):
it's just when you walk and if anybody listening or
you guys have this, it's all good. I probably have
in my house. But those photos families take on a
beach or somewhere random and they're all dressed in khakis
and that to me, there's nothing more less interesting. And
then when you see a real picture of people interacting,
a candid shot, that's the best. And that's kind of
(07:11):
like music. For me, it's the it's the moments when
you completely forget you're recording or you didn't intend on
releasing it. I mean, our first album had slow it
Down on it that we recorded in our kitchen and
it's all one take and it's just like there's birds
in the background chirping because it was bleeding into the mic.
There's all these things that happen on it that you
(07:34):
would when we tried to redo it. It didn't have
the that alchemy, that magic that you get when you're
when you're unencumbered by like the pressures of a studio
and like the absurdity of being like okay, go act natural,
go like there's just nothing. That's why I also in
movies when you see these takes that the director doesn't
(07:55):
yell cut and they let them keep going, and that's
when the real good stuff happens. But that takes a
brave director and really good actors. And I felt like
we were finally in a place, probably more with ourselves
than anything else. Me and Jery where we could. We
did a ton of live takes together and ended up
keeping nose a lot way more than ever like overdubbing
(08:17):
or multi tracking, because it was just so much richer.
There was like better stuff on there, and like just
more personality to it than when you're like, Okay, now
I'm going to do this one word, get it right.
There's nothing cool about that.
Speaker 2 (08:30):
Was there an initial song that springboarded this new way
of creating and recording and producing.
Speaker 1 (08:37):
I think so we made bright Side, and I would say,
like a sort of diet version of this. Bright Side
was a little off the cuff and a little less planned,
but it still had some scaffolding, you know what I mean.
It was like loosely planned. And then this was just
truly I think there's enough decent melodies, you know, in
our voice notes that we can just go and make
(08:58):
some songs. And every time we began with each song,
it was it was like, okay, what's the key? Well,
I don't know, So we just would someone would sit
at a piano and I would try to sing, and
we'd find the way that point at which your voice
is barely making the note happen, but it has the
most emotion, and we would usually go with that, and
(09:21):
then you'd try to figure out a speed. I mean,
even something like the song Asshole, and there's a few
of them on here like this. Some of them don't
have a click track where that one. It varies a
lot between the verses and the choruses, and that kind
of gives some engineers and producers heart palpitations, because not
in a good way, because they're like, oh, you can't
(09:42):
do that. This is gonna be hard to add things too,
and this people ain't gonna get it. It can't go
slower like fast as good. They have a lot of
strange ideas in their head, and I think credit to
David Baron especially, who's engineer and producer one of one
of the producers on this with Simon and ourselves, and
it was like He's like, well, I can I could
(10:05):
just record you guys playing that song as you naturally
would speed up and slow down, and I'm going to
create a temple map that does exactly what you're doing.
So if you want to do it again, there's a
kind of way to do this. And so it was
kind of a mixture of you know, using modern technology
in some ways to make it feel really old school
(10:26):
if you really wanted to do stuff and post. And
then some of it was just like He's on the
Table is a song on the record, and it's just
done completely in the same room live, and it has
like a real old school feel to it, where there's
actually bleed on the different mics and you can hear
my voice on his piano take and things like that.
(10:46):
You know that it shouldn't be that uncommon, but it's
not that common, and I would say popular music these days.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Yeah, that's the song I really wanted to ask about.
That's my favorite one. Could you talk about the writing
process of that where you were what inspired.
Speaker 1 (11:03):
Yeah, I would say, so the hook is in two
different songs, is a hook in You're all I Got
another song, and then that phrase You're all I Got
is repurposed in this song, and I think it's it's
one of those things where once you sing in a
few times and then you try to do something else
with those syllables and that melody in a different song,
(11:24):
it's like, oh, that's just too good. So I just
was like, let's just use it. It works. It's like it's
a big theme on the record. It's like twenty years
of Jared and I'm making music together. And I think
between having kids, between that and being in a actual
marriage and then being in a musical marriage, there's a
(11:45):
lot of, you know, tension in different ways with loving someone.
You know, it's kind of like they're the best thing
that ever happened to you, and you also they can
annoy you that there's things about being beholden to like
my kids that if my daughter asks me if I'm
(12:07):
the most tired I've ever been in my life and
you ask me for something, I kind of some milk
and I just sat down. I'm getting too that like
there's a there's a feeling of I will do anything
for you. I just am programmed that way. And at
the same time, if she crosses the street and doesn't
look both ways, I'm like terrified. So there's this element
of you're beholden to them in this way that is
(12:29):
very inconvenient to like feeling safe. You know, like you're not.
You don't always feel safe when your your happiness and
your well being resides on someone else in some ways,
and with a band, I think that causes a lot
of tension when you collaborate. Collaboration is magical, and then
if something good happens. What I see often happens is
(12:49):
like when bands take off, the success is actually what
breaks them apart. It's not the lean years, it's not
the hard years. It's like everyone's scrambling to take credit
for what they did when something does well. And so
like it's been a constant, it's a long journey of
trying to have a good relationship with one another over
(13:11):
twenty years, where you can try to stay humble around
like each person's contribution and appreciate each other and value
each other, while like your ego wants to believe that
like it's you the whole time. You know, there's like
this selfishness in all of us. So I think that's
why you don't see bands last a whole that long
(13:31):
most of the time, just because it's really hard to
always be doing that. It's a little exhausting, but it's
obviously rewarding. Like this is the Jared and I I
told him, I said, if we died in like a
fiery plane crash, this would be such a fine record
for me to leave with, Like I'm good with this.
This is the best thing we've done so proud of it,
(13:52):
and like I'm at peace with that part, you know,
Like and that's twenty years in, Like I'm so shocked
that what I felt like is our best work is
still might be ahead of us, because you just don't know.
You see all these bands and an artists that as
they age, they react to that a lot differently depending
on the artist, like Tom Petty Wild Flowers later in
(14:15):
his career, incredible, Bob Dylan time out of Mind is
like insane. So I don't know, like there's there's there's
artists that can do it later in life. Paul Simon's
been doing it great for a while, Neil Young, But
it's pretty hard to hold on to that edge and
(14:35):
like and be creatively in touch and be like we're
talking about earlier, I think, be curious, like be I
keep I think it's probably like cheesy to say, and
every time I say it, I don't feel like it
feels the way it's It doesn't sound the way it
feels to me. But when you're making music, when you're
playing music as supposed to be playing like you're like
a kid, you're playing like and if you feel that
(14:58):
way deep into it, I think you're and something right
and when it becomes mechanical and just boring and a job,
it's not the same. So I think there's something to
that and how you find that innocence and like I
would say, like childlike wonderment around whatever you're doing. You're
(15:18):
gonna be better at what you do. Like I have
friends who are chefs and they're just like, taste this,
and they've been doing that forever and it's still like
so exciting to them. And that's the same with music,
and if you're lucky, if you could feel that way
about what you're doing. And so I think you're always
trying to reinvent how you're doing it because if you
(15:38):
keep doing it the same way, you sort of like
master that little side of things and then it's kind
of boring and then you're just kind of like creative
a formula around it.
Speaker 3 (15:56):
But I mean, there's so much to go off with that,
and it's interesting. It's an artist, first of all, you
can never be satisfied, so you always have an internal
struggle to better yourself not to you know, it's not
a competition. It's funny. I interview Chocola con this week,
and you know it's Grammy Week, and she got really
fucking pissed when I was talking about competition. She's like,
(16:18):
artists should never be in competition. But I was like,
as an artist, you're always trying to better yourself. It's
an internal struggle. So I think that is always there
for most people, you know, And so I think that's
where that sense of like discovery comes from, because you
always feel like you can never be satisfied. You can
never feel like, Okay, I've achieved perfection. No one's achieved perfection,
(16:41):
you know. I think the closest ever was John Coltrane
Love Supreme, and even he was like all right, cool
going back to the studio after that. But the other
thing that you were talking about that really cracks me up.
I have always said the most underrated band in rock
history is Easy Top, and not just because they have
great songs, because those were three dudes who stayed in
(17:03):
a band from sixty nine to twenty twenty two when
someone died and never broke up. Those guys should have
fucking handled the Middle East peace process.
Speaker 1 (17:13):
And the Rolling Stones been like it's psycho, how you
have like the Beatles and the Stones? Yeah, I mean
there are stories like our tour manager worked with them,
and there's some beautiful stories too of like recent stories
of them finding ways to stay connected. But imagining that the.
Speaker 3 (17:35):
Beatles rich a song you don't Move Me, It's hilarious,
okay and go yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
I think imagining realizing that the Beatles and the Stones,
you know, were you know, the Beatles were older by
a little bit, but like they were contemporaries and they
made this huge impact in like seven or nine years
or whatever it was, and the Stones have just ploded on.
(18:02):
I mean I saw him a few years ago when
Charlie was still alive and it's still is like they
it's got to be for the love more than anything,
because they have all the money in the world and
they're just like I think my tour manager said, well,
they kind of said, like, well, what else are we
gonna do? This is what we do. We play music,
you know, like and it was even that was kind
(18:23):
of sweet and Paul McCartney still chugging away on his tours.
It's crazy and he's I know what that does to
your body, like as a singer and as a you're
traveling and so for those guys to be doing it
as they do it absolutely crazy. It's like the Tom
Brady of music, you know, where it's like it's and
(18:44):
how good they all sound. I was watching Mick Jagger
is a few months after his heart surgery, and I
was like, that guy had heart surgery. It's just insane.
So I think that longevity is kind of elusive, whether
it's Zzy Top or or those bands. But I you know,
I would guess a lot a lot of them would
have if you could get it out of them. They
(19:06):
probably have some wisdom as far as like why it
is that they stay together because to me, it's kind
of easier to break up. This took an easy off ramp.
Fuck you, I'm out, Like you don't have to fix anything.
You could just be the hero, the misunderstood, misunderappreciated hero
and go on your way like the Eagles, like breaking
(19:28):
up coming back together. There was like a lot of
like is to me that was hard to watch as
like a fan, I was like why why why the
bitner like you guys like did the you guys got
to do what so many people want to do and
you're so sad about all of it, Like this is
not good, you know.
Speaker 3 (19:47):
So it's interesting who for you. Are those role models
that you look at or are those because you've gotten
to play with a lot of musicians, you toured with
a lot of musicians. Are there people you've gotten to
talk to to get that insight? And it's funny because
having interviewed Okay, the most functional duo I ever interviewed
was David Lee Roth and a Van Halen's when they
did the reunion tour. I flew to Philadelphia to see
(20:08):
the show because I was like, they're not gonna make
it to La. Those guys needed each other.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
It's like a bad marriage at that point. It's like
someone cheated on someone. You know, There's there's just something
poisoned in the well. I think at that point I
got we got to open for you two for like
a dozen or so shows. In twenty seventeen, they were
doing the Joshua Tree Reunion tour, so they went from
selling arenas at that point to jumping right into stadiums
(20:38):
because fans love that record. I've always loved it. It's
like thirty years anniversary of it, and I think one
of the things I don't know for sure, but like
one of the things that I realized was like they
were working really hard at their music still and really
wanted it to be great. You know. It wasn't like
(21:01):
they weren't mailing it in. I remember they were. They
were like backstage with people from like local radio stations
playing them like acoustic versions of their songs that on
this record they were going to put out and playing
new music for them, And I was kind of like,
won't those guys just play the songs anyway? Like what's
(21:21):
going on here? They were just such hard working, you know,
just go for it kind of people. That's one side
of it. I don't even think I'm willing to do.
I don't like, I don't like the promotional like to
death aspect of it. But I see it in the
bands that stay huge, like Metallica YouTube. Those bands like
(21:43):
really work hard at promoting things, and that's a real skill.
I just don't know if I'm like cut out for that.
But on the other side, I noticed that they just
when you listen to Joshua Tree that for that tour.
I went to every show that on that after we
open for them, and it was like, you listen to
(22:03):
that music, that music is so not how you script
it to be big music. It's just like people feeling
out an idea and working through it. If you listen
to like a pop song today, it is such a
different path than that. And I'm like, so that it
really showed me, like how they they're just a few
(22:25):
friends that make that made this music together and that
curiosity led them to these heights. That there's sincerity to
it because it feels very unplanned. It's not like I'm
trying to make a hit for you. It's like they
were trying to do something between them that was special
to them. And that's like, to me, that's the mountaintop
is when you it's like a Little Miss Sunshine becoming
(22:46):
one of the most popular movies of that era that
wasn't supposed to be what it was, and that's why
it's so special in a cool way. So I think
you can feel it when someone's ambitious and the ambition
is dripping off the music of like it has to
be big. It just it kind of grosses people out.
And there's other things that you're like, I mean, I
(23:06):
listened to Nick Drake so much and I think my
kids are like turn that depressing me. But to me,
it's like that is like that and Rodriguez are like
filling my cup. You know, I don't know why, it's
just like does something to me that I think. I mean,
I just saw The Dead I'm not a huge deadhead
or anything, but I I've seen a number of shows
(23:28):
and like I just I just give the caveat that
I'm not super well versed in or everything, but I
seen a few shows over my life, and even that
is like, it's so unlikely that that becomes what it is,
and that's why it's kind of cool. It's like not
something that was designed for you to like. It was
designed for them to like because they like it, you
(23:49):
know what I mean, and to be interesting. And I
think that maybe if you start there, you kind of
can't go wrong, even if it gets big, small, whatever.
It's like to me, that is the that is like
the crucial element that I work with some young songwriters
helping them co write at times or producing or both,
and that's the one thing you try to like instill
(24:12):
in them is like the mini start chasing a hit.
It's not gonna be a hit anyway, so what's the point.
Just like, just just make stuff that you love and
maybe an audience will come find it.
Speaker 3 (24:25):
All right, I'm gonna let's say shakeover one second. But
I have to ask you because I am fucking obsessed
with Nick Drake. That's why she was smiling. There was
actually there's this huge post. There's this like and I
found in a book soup in la It was seven
hundred and fifty dollars. There's only seven hundred copies in
the world that I'm the only one, apparently in the US,
(24:45):
because there's so few images of Nick Drake. I was like, wait,
I have to then, and they were trying to like
sell it to me by upselling, by telling me like, oh,
some of a Firth, Earth Wind and Fire is about
to buy it. I'm like, a right, whatever, dude, I'm
leaving it. I mean stually interviewed Joe Boyd multiple times
about Nick Drake. So one Nick Drake song you wish
you could have written him?
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Why I like that song Parasite? I think when I
was in my mid to late twenties, because I didn't
get signed till I was like thirty. So when I'm
in my hometown, my dad is dying, I'm just a loser,
(25:28):
living at my parents' house, working at the a butcher shop,
A Starbucks, and I'm a waiter at this restaurant all
in my hometown, so I'm seeing all these moms and
these people that kind of know me and feel sorry
for me, and I'm like, like, when I hear that song,
(25:50):
I Am a peticide, it is like it's like you
just it encapsulated so much of how I was feeling.
But he said it in a way that was so
much more poetic than like I could have imagined. So
I wish I think it would be that one.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
There's so many artists and I'm sure Nick Jerk does
this as well. Of like this feeling that it's not
really coming from them. I feel like it has to
be something larger than yourself to like be the motivating factor,
and it feels like your music is really teeming with that,
channeling this specific frequency. That's kind of why this podcast
(26:33):
is called in service of, because when you're doing this
work that's so heart centered and so effective to the world,
it's always coming from something maybe more than how would
you define what you're in service of? I love how
you talked about being like a childlike awe and really
tapping into that, but I'm curious what else you would say.
Speaker 1 (26:57):
I mean my so my brother was deeply Christian, deeply devout,
like you know his dad. I don't think he'd mind
me saying his dad walked out on his family when
he was like five years old. And he has two sisters,
and so he was kind of like the man of
the house super young, and religion I think was a
(27:20):
big part of how he made it through life in
such a beautiful has made it so far. He's like
a Green Beret now and like a colonel. He's killing
it and he's the best dad. He's the dad of
four kids with my sister. And I remember we were
in a drive home and I was like in that
(27:40):
kind of mid twenties and he's just everyone else was
asleep in the car, and he's like, can you just
tell me? Like why are you doing music? Like I know,
I know what people think you play music for, but
like what's the point for you? And I was trying
to make an analogy because he goes to church, and
I was like, it's kind of like this communion of people.
(28:02):
It's like church, but not centered around God. It's like
it's like a connection among people and there's like something
deep and higher about that. Whether you associate that with
religion or not. It's like an it's an important. It's
like musicians and they call actors were players. I think
(28:24):
so musicians and players used to go town to town
and kind of singing for their supper. And the whole
reward was like getting fed, and that was you know,
a place to sleep, getting fed if you were lucky
for those things. What I love whatever romanticized about that
in my head head at least, was like you were
the reason why all these townspeople who barely saw each
(28:47):
other throughout the year saw each other and reconnected and
laughed and drank a beer and it was like this
true bringing communion of people. And so as far as
music goes the live aspect, that's what it means to
me is like you're you're inadvertently connecting communities back to
(29:07):
your stitching them back together and in a time when
like maybe that's needed more than ever. The other part
of it is musically. My dad was a psychologist, and
I wanted I wanted his practice to be like Schultzen's
son psychology, Like I was like so into I wanted
to listen and just be there for somebody and try
(29:27):
to I thought that was like such a cool role
to play in people's lives. It's like to hear them
and help them figure out on their almost like on
their own, but with their at their side, how to
work through something. And that that taught me like, Okay,
in order to do that, you have to have a
lot of empathy, and it kind of builds this muscle
(29:48):
of empathy and a curiosity. I think it was empathy
and a curiosity about people that was like deep within
my house with my dad, especially with what he did.
And so I was always writing poetry in class, like rhyming.
I love words. And then I kind of was like
wouldn't it be? It got in my head like wouldn't
it be if I don't do that? Because now I
(30:10):
started liking music. What if empathy and sort of like
finding all these interesting contradictions and people and sort of
tapping into emotion could be a part of the music,
Like what if that is like the intention you set,
not you know, not like overtly, but it's kind of
like underneath all that music has taught me how to cry,
(30:32):
you know. It's like taught me how to feel deeply
when all I wanted to do was like turn that
valve off and keep it off. And I was like, well,
that's a gift, you know, And so part of me
just wanted to It wasn't about like teaching anyone per se,
but like tapping into more of that and music, that
(30:53):
sort of empathy that I saw my dad doing for
all these people on an individual level. It was like,
so like and our album two came out in Cleopatra,
I'm singing from like a female's perspective. Obviously it's not
my story, but I like that you can with music,
you can you can dive into someone else's world and
try to explain it and observe it and describe it.
(31:15):
Just like on album three, it was about addiction, about
my mother in law and her battle with alcoholism. It's
like all of that it's very to me. There's like
the reason I wrote say songs about my mother in
law was because I didn't understand it, and it was
a way for me to try to feel empathy. It
wasn't a way for me to try to criticize her.
It was a way to like try to describe it
(31:37):
as honestly as I could, so that if she heard
these songs which I don't even know if she ever did,
because she had demension was drinking a gallon of vodka day.
If she had heard it, my whole hope was like
she'd be like, that's fair, Like I see that. I
don't feel like he was off about that. It's an
(31:58):
ugly truth, but it's a true. So I don't know.
Sorry for the long explanation, but it's I think it's
a big part of like what I find frustrating about
celebrity around music. It's like it began on the opposite trip.
It was like you were the poor people coming through,
bringing people together, and that was enough, and now it's
(32:20):
got to be like MTV cribs essentially, and that's not
the point. And it actually it distracts you from making music.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
What a beautiful answer. I feel so filled up with humanity.
What would you tell your twenty five year old self,
now that we've gotten a little picture at what he was.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
Like, Uh, I would say, like, just hold on. I
always said music. Trying to make music at that time
was like a war of attrition. Like I saw all
my musical friends and creative friends like slowly kind of
dropping like flies, and I was like, I know almost
like I'm not like gonna go win some singing contest,
but I no, I'm okay at this, Like I just
(33:01):
got to stick around long enough. So I was like
I think I would. I would just keep echoing, like
just keep going. You know, you'll only regret it if
you get off the ride, Like you gotta keep going
and see it through. Because if it wasn't one way,
I just felt like I had I might have ended
up behind the scenes writing for other people. But I
knew I could write, you know. I always felt good
(33:24):
about that. I just I just also knew i'd never
win like a singing competition or a guitar playing competition.
It wasn't like I wasn't a virtuoso that way, And
so like going to guitar center, I always just go like,
this is not my world, like people shredding and I'm
just like this not like this is like I'd rather
read it. You know, I love reading poetry and stuff.
(33:46):
I can understand that a lot more. And the music
was always kind of like a way to get these
lyrics out there.
Speaker 3 (33:54):
All right, now we're gonna have we only have like
five minutes left on the thing. So but I do
have to ask you one question Before we wrap up,
you talked about music making you cry. What is that
one song that does it to you every time?
Speaker 1 (34:11):
There's a few man one is Otis Redding has this random,
live like b side of I've Got Dreams to Remember
and it's like different chords in it. It's gorgeous. I
heard it at Pizzaia one time and I just always
put it on. Another one is A Frightened Rabbit. I
wish that I was sober. I think it's the name,
(34:33):
or it might just be called Sober. And another one
is AA BONDI Mightiest of Guns. I used to listen
to Mightiest of Guns on an entire tour, and I
would like cry before I took the stage. And that
sounds like either not real or stupid, but I did
(34:54):
it because I started We started playing arenas, and I
was like, it feels very anonymous, like you're into like
a blob of humans. It's not like a We used
to play house shows. You could see everybody's face and
you kind of feel like anonymous is a good way
to put it. And so I realized that, like, if
I could find emotion before I took the stage, then
(35:15):
I wasn't acting up there. I was just like extending
that emotion into the set. But if I was like, hey,
I'm joking around my friends and we're just hanging out
and the I'm like I'll see on stage like it
doesn't work. Now I'm like, I really mean this, but
I don't really mean Like there's something about it that
you have to kind of like warm up in a
different kind of way to get to get your head
(35:37):
right to mean it. So I was trying to mean it,
and so those I actually listen to all those songs,
but especially the Mightiest of Guns is an insane song.
Speaker 3 (35:48):
I don't know that one. I actually I'm gonna go
listen to it after we wrap up because now I'm curious.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Yeah, that whole album, that a Bondy album with that
song on it is crazy good, like amazing.
Speaker 3 (36:02):
All right, last question for me, what do you want
people to take from this album when they hear it?
What do you take from it?
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I think they'll take what they usually take from it,
and that's like their their lives will be, you know,
the four memories I think around it and attach certain
of their own. I hope they pick up on, like
some of the humor in it, because there's like a
fair amount of self deprecation. And it was when I
grew up listening to like the Talking Heads with my
dad and he was talking about I go to the
(36:38):
building I want to loved ones and he's singing like
the most absurd dystopian reality, but he's singing in this
like happy way about going to this corporate building, going
to work and you can come visit me in my
work because I'm important, And it's like my dad would
always laugh with me, and we saw the humor in it.
Or like Warren Zevonne is much more obvious, like the
(36:59):
human with lawyers, guns and money, and there's a ton
of like his music is littered with this beautiful humor,
and I think there's it's just made its way into
these songs in different ways. And I really like enjoyed
doing that, and I don't think it ever I have
ever really thought to do it or was able to
do it before. So I help hope people pick up
(37:20):
on a little bit of that.
Speaker 3 (37:23):
Cool We have like a minute left stage, anything you
want to ask before we wrap.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Up a beautiful record. Such an honor to talk to.
It's amazing when people are in service of positivity and
thank you for doing that.
Speaker 1 (37:38):
Oh, thanks a lot. Yeah, I appreciate it. And uh,
I'm sure you're you don't need to hear this, but
I wish you the best of luck and keep going
and just do it for yourself and you never lose,
you know what I mean. And I could say that
because it's been twenty years with me and Jared and
somehow we still were like, hell yeah, high fight. I
think that's I think that's what I hope all my
(37:58):
favorite bands, you know, and some in their own way
felt charged up by what they're doing and not just
out of obligation because that's all they know.
Speaker 3 (38:09):
Oh man, Well, it's always good to talk to you.
Thank you so much. And I love that that reference
Deepon and Nick Drake because those are two of my
all time favorites.
Speaker 1 (38:18):
Hell yeah, I gotta see that book you got sometime.
Speaker 3 (38:22):
Happen It was insane. Yeah all right, cool man. Well,
thank you very much
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