September 10, 2025 • 37 mins
On this week's In Service Of British singer/songwriter Tom Odell joins co-hosts Steve Baltin and Sage Bava to talk about his wonderful new album, spending the summer opening for Billie Eilish on her European tour and much more.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey, it's Steve Balton.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome and so what's up?
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This week we are joined by Tom O'Dell, the brilliant
singer songwriter who's been opening the summer for Billy Eilish.
He talks on this episode about his new album, about
his relationship with Billy and Finn, what it's been like
being out with them, and we go deep in songwriting.
This is probably your favorite singer's favorite songwriter, so I hope.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
You enjoy this one as much as we did. It's
always the nice thing I'm sure to have to delay
a tour when Billy Eilish says, Okay, come tour Europe
(00:49):
with me.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
This year has been like a stranger because I I
didn't intend on doing any touring and and it's I
think it's probably going to be the most amount of
touring I've ever done. So I kept getting asked to
(01:15):
do things, and the kind of working musician in me
finds it difficult to say no to staff. So, I mean,
the Billy artist thing was a no brainer. I mean,
I'd do that forever, and but it's it's nice to
(01:38):
it's nice to be traveling so much and playing so
many shows.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, you know, I would imagine as well, though it's
I mean, I know Billy, I love Billy, and I
would imagine as well. Her fans are very her fans
are knowledgeable, so I imagine that, you know, I wouldn't normally
think of your stuff an arenas, but I imagine her
fans were very well recepted to it. I mean, how
did you find it? Like, it's funny. I remember talking
with Ben Harper, who I fucking loved, great musician, and
(02:06):
he was telling me one of his favorite shows you
ever di do was opening for Harry Styles because the
fans were so welcoming.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
That Billy's fans are incredibly hospitable, and I think they're
so thrilled to be there. I think it's so hard
to get a ticket and they're so thrilled to be
in that space. I can't think of a more welcoming
audience to play to. And you know, we had a
(02:39):
lot of fun, you know, being there.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
I it's funny.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
The other night I saw Phineas, Billy's brother, and I
said to Phineas, It's like, my honest takeaway from that
whole experience is every night it felt like us at
the center of the world, being on that tour and
I'd never felt that before, and that's the It felt
(03:07):
very special. Each evening felt very and everyone on Billy's
side of the tour and our side of the tour
really treated it the show with a great kind of sacredness.
There was a real respect for the time that we
were on stage, and I think it was I'll forever
(03:29):
be grateful and hopefully going to do some more shows
with her as well.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So it's cool, that's interesting. I mean, let's say to
take over in one second, but that's such an interesting
way to put it. And you know, I've become fascinated
with the idea of fame and all the people I
talked to and you know, being ready at a time
like I just did an interview the other day with
I was moderating a panel with Mark Bolan's family about
the new documentary that came out, and I was talking
(03:52):
with the Sun about being ready for to see this
film and the way that you put it, you know,
being at the center of the world. It's such a
I can do some an overwhelming think. Do you feel
like you're in a place now where you can handle that,
because like it's funny, I would imagine if you were younger,
that would be very difficult to handle.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I'm so happy. I've had the experience of being in
the industry for thirteen fourteen years, and I'm so happy
as a man.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
I got this.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Opportunity now and not when I was twenty two, because
I treasure it so much more and I understand it's
so much more, and I know what I'm there to do,
and I think, but most importantly, I'd say that the treasuring,
(04:53):
it's the thing. I treasure it so greatly. And there's
a khm. You know, there is advantages to being young, hm,
you know? And and there are many, uh which I
don't need to mention, but one of the uh advantages
(05:18):
of you're getting a little older is one begins to
see the finite nature of everything, rather than the feeling
as if everything will will will last and and and
(05:39):
you only have to suffer a few losses in your
life to realize that for nite quality of which gives
each experience so much richness. You know, I guess there's
a coup, there's a there's it's the stoic philosophy, which
encourages us to two.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
When you're with someone you love to really.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Meditate on the fact that this could be the last
experience you have with them, and it completely alters your
perception of an experience when one realizes it could in
fact be the final time. And I would just say
that with you know, one of the very few advantages
(06:28):
of getting older is is I've altered my perspective of experience.
I think quite a lot from when I was twenty two.
I just I was very blase when I was twenty two,
and I and maybe slightly confused in a way as well.
I'd say, all.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Right, one quick story and I'm let's say shake over.
But it's so funny that you say that, because yeah,
when you're in your twenties, you don't appreciate it, especially
when things happen, because you have no concept of the
fact that, like, this is an unusual experience and it's
only sometimes I'm sure you've had this you can look
back later on and be like, wait, because I remember
one I was covering for a long Stillness B and
I Awards and in the same night, in the same
(07:09):
marking night, I met Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Bo
Didley and I was like yeah. And then later on,
years later, I was telling gave girl the story and
he was like, and I was like, I was too
stupid in my twenties to appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
If that happened to me now, I would literally keel over.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Yeah yeah, Well, youth is wasted on the young, they
say it's It's true to some extent, but no, Look,
I do feel like I'm in a sweet spot in
my career where I'm still I still have a lot
of energy, and I still have a lot to say,
but I also.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
Have the the some experience as.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Well, and and perhaps the reasons for doing things have
become a little more lucid.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I would say, I absolutely love how you frame things,
and your perspective is amazing, and your music, Holy moly,
there's such an intimacy and a vastness that both you
and Billy have. I love how you talked about the
sacredness of that time. Could you talk a bit of
more about anything you learned, anything that you were inspired
(08:20):
by with being in that sacred space in that kind
of massive, energetic field.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Uh. Nice.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Nice.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
We met before as well, right, or we spoke on the.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
Phone very briefly.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, FaceTime at the end of the interview
because it was an in person Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly,
the sacredness. I don't know what what what I learned
from Billy. I think what I would say, I think Billy,
(08:58):
you know, is an extraordinary style are uh? And I
think I think people she has that once in a
generation ability that allows people to see themselves in her
and and and kind of everybody can see themselves in her.
(09:23):
And I think that is a kind of almost cosmic gift.
I don't I don't know if it's something one can acquire.
I think it it feels to me.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
It seems to me.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
That that that Billy is staring when she's on stage
much like a bird high up in the sky. There's
there's a there's an ease and a natural quality too
to her being on stage in front of people that
(10:00):
I think is it is extremely moving. And I guess
what have I learned from being on the road with
her is I don't know what I've learned, but I
think it's really important if you can do this, is
(10:23):
to surround yourself with people that are better than you.
And I being around Billy and Phineas and being around
that camp, they make me want to be better. They
make me want.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
To aspire to be a better artist, and that.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Is an incredible gift and and one that I think
is such a you know that one of the great
things I take from that experience.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
I'd love to talk about the music now, this new record.
It's absolutely stunning. I was brought to tears and goosebumps
multiple times. Could you talk about how this was different
than previous albums, or if there was a song that
kind of really instigated the entire project.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
It's I guess it's difficult.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
The songs started almost the day that the last album
came out, and it started with the first song on
the album, Don't Let Me Go.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
I was staring.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
I was looking at a meme on Instagram that was
these two people on a train looking into their phones
and smiling kind of nihilistically laughing, you know, And but
but through the glass of the train, the world outside
(12:05):
was on fire, and they didn't for one minute look
up from their phones through the glass at the fire outside.
And there was something that profoundly disturbed me about the
image that.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
I think.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
There's you know, there's a moment that we all have
these days, at one point or another where we feel
this immense sense of frustration and helplessness. Ah ah, the
world around us and almost you know, there's this kind
(12:52):
of cruel duplicity to the modern world of the the
whole planet, every corner you know of, of of every
room on on this in this world has been swept
up into a little pile, a chaotic pile. And and
(13:18):
and it's brought to us in our little black boxes
which we call phones, and it is keeping us in
this perpetual state of anxiety.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
And and and and conflict.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And I would say that that that a lot of
this album deals with this meeting point between my interior
world and the exterior world and trying to figure out.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
A sort of way through that. But also a bit
like any part of our life, how we.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Use the exterior world to also project our own, like
to manifest our own kind of feelings onto the world.
And and and so there's a lot when I think
of the album A Wonderful Life, I feel a lot
(14:30):
there is a lot of looking out and looking in
and and a lot of kind of relationship between the
exterior and the interior.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
I'd say is.
Speaker 7 (14:44):
The biggest inspiration, I guess of the album.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
It's can't abstract answer, but it's the best I can do.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
All right. Well, I want to go back first before
we come onder that, because that's very interesting. But I
want to come back for a second. We're talking about,
you know, artists wanting to making you want to be better,
and I'm curious who are those other artists for you
that have done that over the years and obvious questions,
But now I just have to ask a fan, what's
the one song you had wish you had written? And why?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
I mean, there's a million songs I wish I'd written.
It's difficult to pinpoint one.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
The first one that comes to mind, I'd say, the
artist that I come back to over and over and
over and over again is Lennard Cohen.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
I just seem to find I seem.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
To find so much solace in his.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Writing and if I ever feel alone, which we're all,
you know, capable of at moments. I think, in varying degrees,
I think Leonard.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
I feel like he really.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Documented his suffering in over the course of his life,
right the way through to the end with his last
few records you know you want It Darker and the
posthumous one, and also those last old ideas and I
(16:43):
can't remember the name of them all, but there's there's
a run of about five albums towards the end of
his life where I feel like he's really dealing with
the end of.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
His life, and.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
I find it to be deeply kind of comforting and
life affirming. Strangely I love there's a line that he
uses on a song called The Goal, which I think
he literally recorded on the last few weeks of his life,
and he says, uh, nowhere go, nowhere to go, nothing
(17:18):
to teach except that the goal fall short of the reach.
And I've always found that line to be one of
my favorites of his he ever wrote, and almost to me,
there's a spiritualism to that line that that really accuses
(17:44):
the mind and the ego of being our worst enemy.
Is that we will not find the answers through thought.
Through thought. Is that the answers is is there, It's
staring us in the face, and yet we always walk
(18:04):
past it. And I think that if that was his
sort of like parting message, which it is to me,
I'm profoundly moved by it. But I've dodged the question there.
There's a song that he that he has with which
I always forget the name on but it's on the
record The Future, which I think is either an eighties
(18:31):
or a nineties record, and.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
It's the one with the.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Crack in it that you know that there's a crack
and everything, that's how the light gets in. But it's
actually to me the whole of that song that is
so profoundly moving, which I can't remember the name of,
but the lines, you know, the holy Dove will be
freed and and and then and and you know, for
(19:00):
and freedom then caught again and just like these lines
where I think, let go of the past and let
go of the I just I just find that song
to be so deeply moving.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
I really do.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Oh sorry, it's interesting. I kind of swallow for a second,
but yeah, now I love learning Cohen and a few
people I ever got starstruck meeting.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Ever.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I was at some Canadian consolate thing. Randam Blaney was
standing right next to me, and I was like, holy shit,
and there's people like, but yeah, I want to go
back to now what you were saying. I was just
curious about that, but I want to go back to
what you were thinking about. It's a wonderful life, which
is such a great record, but you were talking about
the interior in the exterior and how people are sort
of dealing with that, And it's interesting that you're having
(19:47):
this sort of run this year where you open for
Billy and the fans are responding to because I think
a big part of what we have found the last
couple of years stage and I am doing this podcast
and talking to people a lot of ways that people
are respond it is by going back to a more
organic sound, to a more natural sound, and most of
the best music this year, I think, to me at
(20:09):
least has fallen in that category. I don't know if
you've heard a record by a woman named Anastasia. It's
mind blowing. I love that I haven't heard it. It's incredible,
but I mean, there's like this just organic sound. And
again you see someone like Lave for example, who I know,
you know who sells out now Arenas, And it's like,
(20:29):
so are you finding that from people? Are the way
they're responding to you and the way they're connecting with
your songs. And it's funny because I went through some
health problems last year and you know, one of the
songs that absolutely got me through it that I keep
going back to which we have talked about before, is
heel and just the simplicity of.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
That, I'm so I'm so happy. I'm sorry. I'm sorry
that you went through some health problems, but I'm I'm
moved by the fact that he'll provided some comfort to you.
I think it's uh, the return to a an organic
(21:11):
sound mm hmm. I think naturally, music is always going
to swing and and and rotate and oscillate between genres
(21:33):
and and once something feels two familiar a tone, you know,
the wonderful lea kind of democratic and meritocratic, you know,
nature of the way the music world works, it means
(21:55):
some something will spring up and and and feel very
unfor and very alien, and.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
People will flock to it.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
So I think that that kind of oscillation is going
to happen forever. But but but I do think that
there's a there's a maybe a longer timescale perspective on
on on music, which as technology becomes a more and
(22:27):
more sort of indistinguishable from our.
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Lives.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
You know, it's like you know, more and more, you know,
I'm seeing people wearing these Apple watches and more and more,
there's this kind of immersion, immersion of of of of.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
The where does our lives begin?
Speaker 4 (22:57):
And the and the internet end? And you know, like
all of those things. I think and obviously, before you
even bring up the subject of artificial intelligence, I think,
I think there will be a kind of what do
(23:19):
I mean, A kind of value maybe an increased value
to people that do things like play a guitar wonderfully
well and impressively well, or sing in a way that's
taken them fifteen years to train, or I think like.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Naturally that is going to happen, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
So I think that the more AI can kind of
simulate and an artificial kind of amount of music, that
that that kind of succeeds, I think that you're gonna
get the opposite, you know. So Yeah, I don't know,
(24:10):
I don't know. I mean, it's a long, long, pointless
answer to I'm not already said the thing.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
You go back to the beginning of the rock there, right.
The nature of music is to be rebellious, and the
nature of artists is to be rebellious. Yeah, so if
you have obviously you know, I mean you look back
to Chuck Berry the electric guitar. You know, Now, if
you have everybody doing everything with technology, then people are
gonna respond to the acoustic guitar and piano and all
(24:47):
of that, so it does make sense. All right, I'm
gonna ask one more question for a second than I'm
let's sage shake back over to kind of finish up,
because we're gonna run out of time. But I'm curious.
One of the things we talked about with YO was
the way that it came about through kind of channeling
that natural thing of just so quickly as most songs do.
And this album has that same feel where there's songs
on this record that surprised you the way they came
(25:08):
so quickly.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
So they're all you know, I think maybe we've talked
about this before. I think there's two camps. There's like
the kind of you know, the kind of Bob Dylan.
You know, I've heard him talking, you know about Highway
sixty one and those records and three winning Bob Dylan.
It's like the songs just kind of arrived, like by
(25:33):
some divine, you know, gift, They just land on his desk.
Then there's the kind of Leonard and Bruce and.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Billy Joel.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Way of which you know, it's a labor and it's
hard and and you get a glimmer an imagine of imagination,
a glimmer of light, of color, of radiance of which
(26:10):
one has to see at some point during the beginning,
and then the rest of the process is trying to
stay true to that initial vision, and it sometimes it's
harder than others.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
I think maybe I'll hang on a minute. I've got
the the.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Cleaner is, I'm in a hotel room. Let me just
tell them what I'm doing a podcast. Hello there, I'm
just just did a meeting thing. So yeah, if you
could come back a bit later, that'd be wonderful. Thank
you so much. Sorry about that.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
That's it's very a music and very rocket role they have.
You know, I remember doing interviews on a tour of us,
and you know that's the part of the nature. By
the way, very quickly before you finished him, before I
let's sage finish up. I love the fact that you
mentioned Billy Joel in there, because I've always been such
a fan, and I love the fact that that was
the HBO documentary. He's getting that sort of renaissance where
(27:17):
people realize, oh wait, Billy Joel is actually an amazing writer.
Why have we not thought he was cool for so long,
so very quickly, I'm gonna ask you and then let's say, go,
what's your favorite Billy Joel song?
Speaker 4 (27:31):
I love it, and so it goes, Yeah, beautiful song,
but so many you know, I told with Binny for
a bit, I mean I did. I did Madison Square
Garden with him, I think three times, and then played
in Miami with him a few times about ten years ago,
and I and I sat with him multiple times because
(27:53):
he paid the fine and his was the only dressing
room in the arena that you could smoke in and
I was an enthusiastic smoker at that time, and him
and I would sit in his bathroom of his dressing
room and smoke change smoked cigarettes together. And I asked
him everything everything I could in the time I had
(28:17):
with him, like because he's one of my heroes, and
I just wanted to understand everything that he knew. And
he was very candid and very open with me about stuff.
So yeah, he's amazing. And you know you say that
about the documentary. I haven' actually seen the document yet,
(28:38):
But like I didn't think anyone from my generation, I
no one I know thinks Billy Joel's uncle.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
But maybe I missed out on something.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Oh no, I remember doing a whole piece and Forbes
that you know, his brothers said he was gonna love.
There's so many people just you know why, because he
had so many pop songs. People were like that.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
But it's funny because to me, I'll go back to
you and I think of the best written songs of
all time, I'll go to honesty. I think that's one
of the that's I tend that to me is one
of the ten. But it's just a perfect, perfect little
snippet of like.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah, oh, Vienna is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Scenes from Italian restaurant.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Yeah, so yeah, stage my life as well. I love that.
I don't know what you say, I love.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
The wrong ones. You may be right, you know, Yeah, yeah,
big shot you have a lot of attitude too.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah Zanzibar, you know some Zanzibar.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
So good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Send my review to Noah and Noah can forward it
to you, because it's funny because there was a period where, like,
you know, the same thing I talk about with Rod Stewart.
I love Rod Stewart, and Rod Stewart's a great dude.
We've become friends. But it's like people don't pay attention
because they don't fit into a neat little niche. They've
done so many different things, and like certain Billy Joel songs,
(30:02):
I'm sorry, like Uptown Girl, it is cheesy as fuck.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
It just is.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Yeah, but I don't think I don't even think he
sings it that often anymore does he?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
Like It's like.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
I guess that song it's like almost musical theater, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh look, Man Springsy is my favorite artist of all time,
and I hate the song covering Me. Every artist has
that one song.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
So yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Because the Uptown Girl became a big hit people, there
was a generation that was like Billy Joel, He's not
called the pop artist. He's a rock artist.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (30:37):
I mean, listen to some of Leonard Cohen's I mean
that record Leonard Cohen did with Uh, but Phil Specter
is like, is such a strange record. I mean it's like,
it's so fucking weird and it kind of actually sounds
awful in places. I'm a massive Lenar and Leonard's cool
(30:59):
on the cool, you know, like that every artist. Bowie
made some very strange records in the nineties two thousands,
like I don't know.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
I'm a big Bowie fan. I like really struggle with them,
Like it's not that they're like.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Uncool, it's just that they're actually unlistenable, like in all
honesty and for me. But then he, you know, he
also made like fucking Ziggy Starasts and you know, Less
Dance and you know, you know, and even Black Star
is like stunning piece of work. But like every artist makes,
I think it's actually something really liberating about making like
(31:43):
as an artist.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
This is my seventh.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Album, right, and there's there's a couple of albums of
mine I really just like don't really like, and I
barely ever play songs from them. And that's there's something
quite in bold about that in a strange way, about putting.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Something out that you know, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
It's hard to articulate, but I think there's a kind
of right of passage with it.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Well, I always say, if it's an artist, you do you.
If it's an artist you're trying to get everyone to
like you, then you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
Yeah, exactly exactly. I agree.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, unfortunately, only have five minutes left, Say do you
want to finish it off?
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (32:29):
I mean very quickly. I love hearing you talk about
Cohen and Billy Joel, and it really feels like you're
continuing that legacy, that lineage of like being really in
service of the music and humanity. I mean in this,
like you've said, this dual world that we're in that's
going to become so much more important as the others
go into their direction. So I really appreciate how you
(32:50):
are holding that torch. But what does it mean to
you to be in service of the music. I feel
like that's going to become more of a clouded concept
as we go to this new time.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, I think in service of the music is a thing,
for better or worse. I've dedicated my career to I
I have never and probably to my detriment, like being
bothered about.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Being a star or being a personality or.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
That there are people that I started out with who
were much put much more time and thought into how
to play, how to play the game, who have done
you know, and it's done with them their career wonders,
you know, and I'm sure they have you know, they
(33:49):
have houses with pools in you know, in them, and
I don't. And maybe if i'd been in more shrewd eye,
would have paid more attention to the kind of pr
side of my career better. But I can say with
(34:09):
my hand on my heart that I've always put the
song front and center and live performance as well. And
for me, I really kind of have always cared that
(34:32):
when I put a song out to the world, I
can step on stage and sing it with conviction and
care about every line, even you know, the fourth line
of the mid late that no one's going to give
a fuck about.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
I have to have my heart in it.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
And I've always had that mentality since I was sixteen
years old. And the one thing, you know, I can
be grateful for when I look back, there's many decisions
I made as a young person that I don't look
that so fondly.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
You know.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
It's even like production choices and the way I've sung
songs and all sorts of things. But the one thing
I always would say, mostly I feel is that is
that sorry as things falling down, is that I feel
like every line I wrote with conviction. And I've always
(35:37):
tried to be very honest as well in my songs
as much as possible, and.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
And so I really have sort of made a peace
with myself in that respect of.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
Always doing my best and trying my best and trying
to surrender to what to not controlling the outcome, because
there is a tendency, a kind of invitation one feels
as an artist to try and influence how you're perceived,
how the song's perceived.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
And I think it's a kind of it's a it's
a folly to to to.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Pursue that, because ultimately you can never control what people
think of you, and you can never control how songs
they You know, they go on their own journey, much
like a parent with a child. You can only do
what you can do at the beginning, and then you
(36:47):
have to let go. And I think it can be
hard that with songs. But but like I think I've
gotten good at that these days.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Well, I was going to say, we're gonna run out
of time, So is there anything that you want to
add or.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
No, Just gratitude for having me on and and I'd
love you to talk to you both again and and
and and sending you both love and hope you have
a one for the rest of your day.
Speaker 7 (37:17):
M M M.
Hey, it's Steve Balton.
Speaker 2 (00:04):
Welcome and so what's up?
Speaker 3 (00:06):
This week we are joined by Tom O'Dell, the brilliant
singer songwriter who's been opening the summer for Billy Eilish.
He talks on this episode about his new album, about
his relationship with Billy and Finn, what it's been like
being out with them, and we go deep in songwriting.
This is probably your favorite singer's favorite songwriter, so I hope.
Speaker 1 (00:27):
You enjoy this one as much as we did. It's
always the nice thing I'm sure to have to delay
a tour when Billy Eilish says, Okay, come tour Europe
(00:49):
with me.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
This year has been like a stranger because I I
didn't intend on doing any touring and and it's I
think it's probably going to be the most amount of
touring I've ever done. So I kept getting asked to
(01:15):
do things, and the kind of working musician in me
finds it difficult to say no to staff. So, I mean,
the Billy artist thing was a no brainer. I mean,
I'd do that forever, and but it's it's nice to
(01:38):
it's nice to be traveling so much and playing so
many shows.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Well, you know, I would imagine as well, though it's
I mean, I know Billy, I love Billy, and I
would imagine as well. Her fans are very her fans
are knowledgeable, so I imagine that, you know, I wouldn't normally
think of your stuff an arenas, but I imagine her
fans were very well recepted to it. I mean, how
did you find it? Like, it's funny. I remember talking
with Ben Harper, who I fucking loved, great musician, and
(02:06):
he was telling me one of his favorite shows you
ever di do was opening for Harry Styles because the
fans were so welcoming.
Speaker 4 (02:13):
That Billy's fans are incredibly hospitable, and I think they're
so thrilled to be there. I think it's so hard
to get a ticket and they're so thrilled to be
in that space. I can't think of a more welcoming
audience to play to. And you know, we had a
(02:39):
lot of fun, you know, being there.
Speaker 5 (02:42):
I it's funny.
Speaker 4 (02:43):
The other night I saw Phineas, Billy's brother, and I
said to Phineas, It's like, my honest takeaway from that
whole experience is every night it felt like us at
the center of the world, being on that tour and
I'd never felt that before, and that's the It felt
(03:07):
very special. Each evening felt very and everyone on Billy's
side of the tour and our side of the tour
really treated it the show with a great kind of sacredness.
There was a real respect for the time that we
were on stage, and I think it was I'll forever
(03:29):
be grateful and hopefully going to do some more shows
with her as well.
Speaker 1 (03:32):
So it's cool, that's interesting. I mean, let's say to
take over in one second, but that's such an interesting
way to put it. And you know, I've become fascinated
with the idea of fame and all the people I
talked to and you know, being ready at a time
like I just did an interview the other day with
I was moderating a panel with Mark Bolan's family about
the new documentary that came out, and I was talking
(03:52):
with the Sun about being ready for to see this
film and the way that you put it, you know,
being at the center of the world. It's such a
I can do some an overwhelming think. Do you feel
like you're in a place now where you can handle that,
because like it's funny, I would imagine if you were younger,
that would be very difficult to handle.
Speaker 4 (04:10):
I'm so happy. I've had the experience of being in
the industry for thirteen fourteen years, and I'm so happy
as a man.
Speaker 5 (04:26):
I got this.
Speaker 4 (04:26):
Opportunity now and not when I was twenty two, because
I treasure it so much more and I understand it's
so much more, and I know what I'm there to do,
and I think, but most importantly, I'd say that the treasuring,
(04:53):
it's the thing. I treasure it so greatly. And there's
a khm. You know, there is advantages to being young, hm,
you know? And and there are many, uh which I
don't need to mention, but one of the uh advantages
(05:18):
of you're getting a little older is one begins to
see the finite nature of everything, rather than the feeling
as if everything will will will last and and and
(05:39):
you only have to suffer a few losses in your
life to realize that for nite quality of which gives
each experience so much richness. You know, I guess there's
a coup, there's a there's it's the stoic philosophy, which
encourages us to two.
Speaker 5 (05:59):
When you're with someone you love to really.
Speaker 4 (06:06):
Meditate on the fact that this could be the last
experience you have with them, and it completely alters your
perception of an experience when one realizes it could in
fact be the final time. And I would just say
that with you know, one of the very few advantages
(06:28):
of getting older is is I've altered my perspective of experience.
I think quite a lot from when I was twenty two.
I just I was very blase when I was twenty two,
and I and maybe slightly confused in a way as well.
I'd say, all.
Speaker 1 (06:46):
Right, one quick story and I'm let's say shake over.
But it's so funny that you say that, because yeah,
when you're in your twenties, you don't appreciate it, especially
when things happen, because you have no concept of the
fact that, like, this is an unusual experience and it's
only sometimes I'm sure you've had this you can look
back later on and be like, wait, because I remember
one I was covering for a long Stillness B and
I Awards and in the same night, in the same
(07:09):
marking night, I met Chuck Berry, Little Richard and Bo
Didley and I was like yeah. And then later on,
years later, I was telling gave girl the story and
he was like, and I was like, I was too
stupid in my twenties to appreciate it.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (07:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (07:22):
If that happened to me now, I would literally keel over.
Speaker 4 (07:25):
Yeah yeah, Well, youth is wasted on the young, they
say it's It's true to some extent, but no, Look,
I do feel like I'm in a sweet spot in
my career where I'm still I still have a lot
of energy, and I still have a lot to say,
but I also.
Speaker 5 (07:46):
Have the the some experience as.
Speaker 4 (07:50):
Well, and and perhaps the reasons for doing things have
become a little more lucid.
Speaker 6 (07:59):
I would say, I absolutely love how you frame things,
and your perspective is amazing, and your music, Holy moly,
there's such an intimacy and a vastness that both you
and Billy have. I love how you talked about the
sacredness of that time. Could you talk a bit of
more about anything you learned, anything that you were inspired
(08:20):
by with being in that sacred space in that kind
of massive, energetic field.
Speaker 5 (08:29):
Uh. Nice.
Speaker 4 (08:29):
Nice.
Speaker 5 (08:30):
We met before as well, right, or we spoke on the.
Speaker 6 (08:32):
Phone very briefly.
Speaker 4 (08:34):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, FaceTime at the end of the interview
because it was an in person Yes, yeah, yeah, exactly,
the sacredness. I don't know what what what I learned
from Billy. I think what I would say, I think Billy,
(08:58):
you know, is an extraordinary style are uh? And I
think I think people she has that once in a
generation ability that allows people to see themselves in her
and and and kind of everybody can see themselves in her.
(09:23):
And I think that is a kind of almost cosmic gift.
I don't I don't know if it's something one can acquire.
I think it it feels to me.
Speaker 5 (09:39):
It seems to me.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
That that that Billy is staring when she's on stage
much like a bird high up in the sky. There's
there's a there's an ease and a natural quality too
to her being on stage in front of people that
(10:00):
I think is it is extremely moving. And I guess
what have I learned from being on the road with
her is I don't know what I've learned, but I
think it's really important if you can do this, is
(10:23):
to surround yourself with people that are better than you.
And I being around Billy and Phineas and being around
that camp, they make me want to be better. They
make me want.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
To aspire to be a better artist, and that.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Is an incredible gift and and one that I think
is such a you know that one of the great
things I take from that experience.
Speaker 6 (10:57):
I'd love to talk about the music now, this new record.
It's absolutely stunning. I was brought to tears and goosebumps
multiple times. Could you talk about how this was different
than previous albums, or if there was a song that
kind of really instigated the entire project.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
It's I guess it's difficult.
Speaker 4 (11:26):
The songs started almost the day that the last album
came out, and it started with the first song on
the album, Don't Let Me Go.
Speaker 5 (11:40):
I was staring.
Speaker 4 (11:42):
I was looking at a meme on Instagram that was
these two people on a train looking into their phones
and smiling kind of nihilistically laughing, you know, And but
but through the glass of the train, the world outside
(12:05):
was on fire, and they didn't for one minute look
up from their phones through the glass at the fire outside.
And there was something that profoundly disturbed me about the
image that.
Speaker 5 (12:24):
I think.
Speaker 4 (12:26):
There's you know, there's a moment that we all have
these days, at one point or another where we feel
this immense sense of frustration and helplessness. Ah ah, the
world around us and almost you know, there's this kind
(12:52):
of cruel duplicity to the modern world of the the
whole planet, every corner you know of, of of every
room on on this in this world has been swept
up into a little pile, a chaotic pile. And and
(13:18):
and it's brought to us in our little black boxes
which we call phones, and it is keeping us in
this perpetual state of anxiety.
Speaker 5 (13:32):
And and and and conflict.
Speaker 4 (13:37):
And I would say that that that a lot of
this album deals with this meeting point between my interior
world and the exterior world and trying to figure out.
Speaker 5 (13:59):
A sort of way through that. But also a bit
like any part of our life, how we.
Speaker 4 (14:09):
Use the exterior world to also project our own, like
to manifest our own kind of feelings onto the world.
And and and so there's a lot when I think
of the album A Wonderful Life, I feel a lot
(14:30):
there is a lot of looking out and looking in
and and a lot of kind of relationship between the
exterior and the interior.
Speaker 5 (14:42):
I'd say is.
Speaker 7 (14:44):
The biggest inspiration, I guess of the album.
Speaker 5 (14:56):
It's can't abstract answer, but it's the best I can do.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
All right. Well, I want to go back first before
we come onder that, because that's very interesting. But I
want to come back for a second. We're talking about,
you know, artists wanting to making you want to be better,
and I'm curious who are those other artists for you
that have done that over the years and obvious questions,
But now I just have to ask a fan, what's
the one song you had wish you had written? And why?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
I mean, there's a million songs I wish I'd written.
It's difficult to pinpoint one.
Speaker 2 (15:33):
The first one that comes to mind, I'd say, the
artist that I come back to over and over and
over and over again is Lennard Cohen.
Speaker 4 (15:47):
I just seem to find I seem.
Speaker 5 (15:56):
To find so much solace in his.
Speaker 4 (16:01):
Writing and if I ever feel alone, which we're all,
you know, capable of at moments. I think, in varying degrees,
I think Leonard.
Speaker 5 (16:16):
I feel like he really.
Speaker 4 (16:20):
Documented his suffering in over the course of his life,
right the way through to the end with his last
few records you know you want It Darker and the
posthumous one, and also those last old ideas and I
(16:43):
can't remember the name of them all, but there's there's
a run of about five albums towards the end of
his life where I feel like he's really dealing with
the end of.
Speaker 5 (16:52):
His life, and.
Speaker 4 (16:55):
I find it to be deeply kind of comforting and
life affirming. Strangely I love there's a line that he
uses on a song called The Goal, which I think
he literally recorded on the last few weeks of his life,
and he says, uh, nowhere go, nowhere to go, nothing
(17:18):
to teach except that the goal fall short of the reach.
And I've always found that line to be one of
my favorites of his he ever wrote, and almost to me,
there's a spiritualism to that line that that really accuses
(17:44):
the mind and the ego of being our worst enemy.
Is that we will not find the answers through thought.
Through thought. Is that the answers is is there, It's
staring us in the face, and yet we always walk
(18:04):
past it. And I think that if that was his
sort of like parting message, which it is to me,
I'm profoundly moved by it. But I've dodged the question there.
There's a song that he that he has with which
I always forget the name on but it's on the
record The Future, which I think is either an eighties
(18:31):
or a nineties record, and.
Speaker 5 (18:35):
It's the one with the.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
Crack in it that you know that there's a crack
and everything, that's how the light gets in. But it's
actually to me the whole of that song that is
so profoundly moving, which I can't remember the name of,
but the lines, you know, the holy Dove will be
freed and and and then and and you know, for
(19:00):
and freedom then caught again and just like these lines
where I think, let go of the past and let
go of the I just I just find that song
to be so deeply moving.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
I really do.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
Oh sorry, it's interesting. I kind of swallow for a second,
but yeah, now I love learning Cohen and a few
people I ever got starstruck meeting.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
Ever.
Speaker 1 (19:24):
I was at some Canadian consolate thing. Randam Blaney was
standing right next to me, and I was like, holy shit,
and there's people like, but yeah, I want to go
back to now what you were saying. I was just
curious about that, but I want to go back to
what you were thinking about. It's a wonderful life, which
is such a great record, but you were talking about
the interior in the exterior and how people are sort
of dealing with that, And it's interesting that you're having
(19:47):
this sort of run this year where you open for
Billy and the fans are responding to because I think
a big part of what we have found the last
couple of years stage and I am doing this podcast
and talking to people a lot of ways that people
are respond it is by going back to a more
organic sound, to a more natural sound, and most of
the best music this year, I think, to me at
(20:09):
least has fallen in that category. I don't know if
you've heard a record by a woman named Anastasia. It's
mind blowing. I love that I haven't heard it. It's incredible,
but I mean, there's like this just organic sound. And
again you see someone like Lave for example, who I know,
you know who sells out now Arenas, And it's like,
(20:29):
so are you finding that from people? Are the way
they're responding to you and the way they're connecting with
your songs. And it's funny because I went through some
health problems last year and you know, one of the
songs that absolutely got me through it that I keep
going back to which we have talked about before, is
heel and just the simplicity of.
Speaker 4 (20:45):
That, I'm so I'm so happy. I'm sorry. I'm sorry
that you went through some health problems, but I'm I'm
moved by the fact that he'll provided some comfort to you.
I think it's uh, the return to a an organic
(21:11):
sound mm hmm. I think naturally, music is always going
to swing and and and rotate and oscillate between genres
(21:33):
and and once something feels two familiar a tone, you know,
the wonderful lea kind of democratic and meritocratic, you know,
nature of the way the music world works, it means
(21:55):
some something will spring up and and and feel very
unfor and very alien, and.
Speaker 5 (22:02):
People will flock to it.
Speaker 4 (22:03):
So I think that that kind of oscillation is going
to happen forever. But but but I do think that
there's a there's a maybe a longer timescale perspective on
on on music, which as technology becomes a more and
(22:27):
more sort of indistinguishable from our.
Speaker 5 (22:33):
Lives.
Speaker 4 (22:36):
You know, it's like you know, more and more, you know,
I'm seeing people wearing these Apple watches and more and more,
there's this kind of immersion, immersion of of of of.
Speaker 5 (22:54):
The where does our lives begin?
Speaker 4 (22:57):
And the and the internet end? And you know, like
all of those things. I think and obviously, before you
even bring up the subject of artificial intelligence, I think,
I think there will be a kind of what do
(23:19):
I mean, A kind of value maybe an increased value
to people that do things like play a guitar wonderfully
well and impressively well, or sing in a way that's
taken them fifteen years to train, or I think like.
Speaker 5 (23:44):
Naturally that is going to happen, you know.
Speaker 4 (23:48):
So I think that the more AI can kind of
simulate and an artificial kind of amount of music, that
that that kind of succeeds, I think that you're gonna
get the opposite, you know. So Yeah, I don't know,
(24:10):
I don't know. I mean, it's a long, long, pointless
answer to I'm not already said the thing.
Speaker 1 (24:25):
You go back to the beginning of the rock there, right.
The nature of music is to be rebellious, and the
nature of artists is to be rebellious. Yeah, so if
you have obviously you know, I mean you look back
to Chuck Berry the electric guitar. You know, Now, if
you have everybody doing everything with technology, then people are
gonna respond to the acoustic guitar and piano and all
(24:47):
of that, so it does make sense. All right, I'm
gonna ask one more question for a second than I'm
let's sage shake back over to kind of finish up,
because we're gonna run out of time. But I'm curious.
One of the things we talked about with YO was
the way that it came about through kind of channeling
that natural thing of just so quickly as most songs do.
And this album has that same feel where there's songs
on this record that surprised you the way they came
(25:08):
so quickly.
Speaker 4 (25:11):
So they're all you know, I think maybe we've talked
about this before. I think there's two camps. There's like
the kind of you know, the kind of Bob Dylan.
You know, I've heard him talking, you know about Highway
sixty one and those records and three winning Bob Dylan.
It's like the songs just kind of arrived, like by
(25:33):
some divine, you know, gift, They just land on his desk.
Then there's the kind of Leonard and Bruce and.
Speaker 5 (25:47):
Billy Joel.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Way of which you know, it's a labor and it's
hard and and you get a glimmer an imagine of imagination,
a glimmer of light, of color, of radiance of which
(26:10):
one has to see at some point during the beginning,
and then the rest of the process is trying to
stay true to that initial vision, and it sometimes it's
harder than others.
Speaker 5 (26:24):
I think maybe I'll hang on a minute. I've got
the the.
Speaker 4 (26:32):
Cleaner is, I'm in a hotel room. Let me just
tell them what I'm doing a podcast. Hello there, I'm
just just did a meeting thing. So yeah, if you
could come back a bit later, that'd be wonderful. Thank
you so much. Sorry about that.
Speaker 1 (26:54):
That's it's very a music and very rocket role they have.
You know, I remember doing interviews on a tour of us,
and you know that's the part of the nature. By
the way, very quickly before you finished him, before I
let's sage finish up. I love the fact that you
mentioned Billy Joel in there, because I've always been such
a fan, and I love the fact that that was
the HBO documentary. He's getting that sort of renaissance where
(27:17):
people realize, oh wait, Billy Joel is actually an amazing writer.
Why have we not thought he was cool for so long,
so very quickly, I'm gonna ask you and then let's say, go,
what's your favorite Billy Joel song?
Speaker 4 (27:31):
I love it, and so it goes, Yeah, beautiful song,
but so many you know, I told with Binny for
a bit, I mean I did. I did Madison Square
Garden with him, I think three times, and then played
in Miami with him a few times about ten years ago,
and I and I sat with him multiple times because
(27:53):
he paid the fine and his was the only dressing
room in the arena that you could smoke in and
I was an enthusiastic smoker at that time, and him
and I would sit in his bathroom of his dressing
room and smoke change smoked cigarettes together. And I asked
him everything everything I could in the time I had
(28:17):
with him, like because he's one of my heroes, and
I just wanted to understand everything that he knew. And
he was very candid and very open with me about stuff.
So yeah, he's amazing. And you know you say that
about the documentary. I haven' actually seen the document yet,
(28:38):
But like I didn't think anyone from my generation, I
no one I know thinks Billy Joel's uncle.
Speaker 5 (28:45):
But maybe I missed out on something.
Speaker 1 (28:48):
Oh no, I remember doing a whole piece and Forbes
that you know, his brothers said he was gonna love.
There's so many people just you know why, because he
had so many pop songs. People were like that.
Speaker 5 (28:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:58):
But it's funny because to me, I'll go back to
you and I think of the best written songs of
all time, I'll go to honesty. I think that's one
of the that's I tend that to me is one
of the ten. But it's just a perfect, perfect little
snippet of like.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
Yeah, oh, Vienna is beautiful.
Speaker 1 (29:16):
Scenes from Italian restaurant.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
Yeah, so yeah, stage my life as well. I love that.
I don't know what you say, I love.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
The wrong ones. You may be right, you know, Yeah, yeah,
big shot you have a lot of attitude too.
Speaker 4 (29:35):
Yeah Zanzibar, you know some Zanzibar.
Speaker 5 (29:40):
So good. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Send my review to Noah and Noah can forward it
to you, because it's funny because there was a period where, like,
you know, the same thing I talk about with Rod Stewart.
I love Rod Stewart, and Rod Stewart's a great dude.
We've become friends. But it's like people don't pay attention
because they don't fit into a neat little niche. They've
done so many different things, and like certain Billy Joel songs,
(30:02):
I'm sorry, like Uptown Girl, it is cheesy as fuck.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
It just is.
Speaker 4 (30:09):
Yeah, but I don't think I don't even think he
sings it that often anymore does he?
Speaker 5 (30:14):
Like It's like.
Speaker 4 (30:17):
I guess that song it's like almost musical theater, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
Oh look, Man Springsy is my favorite artist of all time,
and I hate the song covering Me. Every artist has
that one song.
Speaker 5 (30:27):
So yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Because the Uptown Girl became a big hit people, there
was a generation that was like Billy Joel, He's not
called the pop artist. He's a rock artist.
Speaker 5 (30:36):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (30:37):
I mean, listen to some of Leonard Cohen's I mean
that record Leonard Cohen did with Uh, but Phil Specter
is like, is such a strange record. I mean it's like,
it's so fucking weird and it kind of actually sounds
awful in places. I'm a massive Lenar and Leonard's cool
(30:59):
on the cool, you know, like that every artist. Bowie
made some very strange records in the nineties two thousands,
like I don't know.
Speaker 5 (31:12):
I'm a big Bowie fan. I like really struggle with them,
Like it's not that they're like.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
Uncool, it's just that they're actually unlistenable, like in all
honesty and for me. But then he, you know, he
also made like fucking Ziggy Starasts and you know, Less
Dance and you know, you know, and even Black Star
is like stunning piece of work. But like every artist makes,
I think it's actually something really liberating about making like
(31:43):
as an artist.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
This is my seventh.
Speaker 4 (31:46):
Album, right, and there's there's a couple of albums of
mine I really just like don't really like, and I
barely ever play songs from them. And that's there's something
quite in bold about that in a strange way, about putting.
Speaker 5 (32:03):
Something out that you know, I don't know what it is.
Speaker 4 (32:08):
It's hard to articulate, but I think there's a kind
of right of passage with it.
Speaker 5 (32:12):
You know.
Speaker 1 (32:14):
Well, I always say, if it's an artist, you do you.
If it's an artist you're trying to get everyone to
like you, then you're doing it wrong.
Speaker 5 (32:21):
Yeah, exactly exactly. I agree.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Well, unfortunately, only have five minutes left, Say do you
want to finish it off?
Speaker 4 (32:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 6 (32:29):
I mean very quickly. I love hearing you talk about
Cohen and Billy Joel, and it really feels like you're
continuing that legacy, that lineage of like being really in
service of the music and humanity. I mean in this,
like you've said, this dual world that we're in that's
going to become so much more important as the others
go into their direction. So I really appreciate how you
(32:50):
are holding that torch. But what does it mean to
you to be in service of the music. I feel
like that's going to become more of a clouded concept
as we go to this new time.
Speaker 4 (33:01):
Well, I think in service of the music is a thing,
for better or worse. I've dedicated my career to I
I have never and probably to my detriment, like being
bothered about.
Speaker 5 (33:17):
Being a star or being a personality or.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
You know.
Speaker 4 (33:27):
That there are people that I started out with who
were much put much more time and thought into how
to play, how to play the game, who have done
you know, and it's done with them their career wonders,
you know, and I'm sure they have you know, they
(33:49):
have houses with pools in you know, in them, and
I don't. And maybe if i'd been in more shrewd eye,
would have paid more attention to the kind of pr
side of my career better. But I can say with
(34:09):
my hand on my heart that I've always put the
song front and center and live performance as well. And
for me, I really kind of have always cared that
(34:32):
when I put a song out to the world, I
can step on stage and sing it with conviction and
care about every line, even you know, the fourth line
of the mid late that no one's going to give
a fuck about.
Speaker 5 (34:49):
I have to have my heart in it.
Speaker 4 (34:53):
And I've always had that mentality since I was sixteen
years old. And the one thing, you know, I can
be grateful for when I look back, there's many decisions
I made as a young person that I don't look
that so fondly.
Speaker 5 (35:13):
You know.
Speaker 4 (35:13):
It's even like production choices and the way I've sung
songs and all sorts of things. But the one thing
I always would say, mostly I feel is that is
that sorry as things falling down, is that I feel
like every line I wrote with conviction. And I've always
(35:37):
tried to be very honest as well in my songs
as much as possible, and.
Speaker 5 (35:44):
And so I really have sort of made a peace
with myself in that respect of.
Speaker 4 (35:56):
Always doing my best and trying my best and trying
to surrender to what to not controlling the outcome, because
there is a tendency, a kind of invitation one feels
as an artist to try and influence how you're perceived,
how the song's perceived.
Speaker 5 (36:15):
And I think it's a kind of it's a it's
a folly to to to.
Speaker 4 (36:25):
Pursue that, because ultimately you can never control what people
think of you, and you can never control how songs
they You know, they go on their own journey, much
like a parent with a child. You can only do
what you can do at the beginning, and then you
(36:47):
have to let go. And I think it can be
hard that with songs. But but like I think I've
gotten good at that these days.
Speaker 1 (36:57):
Well, I was going to say, we're gonna run out
of time, So is there anything that you want to
add or.
Speaker 4 (37:03):
No, Just gratitude for having me on and and I'd
love you to talk to you both again and and
and and sending you both love and hope you have
a one for the rest of your day.
Speaker 7 (37:17):
M M M.
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