November 17, 2022 • 25 mins
You’ve probably heard of Ts Madison through her iconic videos on social media, her TV show The TS Madison Experience, or even through her latest feature on Cozy, a track off the new Beyonce album. But before she became known for her content and out-of-this-world confidence as a trans woman, she was a sex worker that was battling stigmas within the same community that was meant to protect her.
In this episode, listen as Maddie shares her struggles in becoming unapologetically herself. Because although she’s always been very sure of who she is and what she stands for, it was the outside world - filled with transphobia and homophobia – that always made her feel like was inadequately representing womanhood and the trans community. Find out how Maddie overcame these comparisons and societal pressures to make herself happy - becoming the truest version of herself through radical self-love.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Learning to love ourselves and our messy and complicated truth
is hard enough. But what happens when you have that
feeling of otherness just hanging over your head, where you
don't feel understood even within your own tribe. How do
you confidently grow into your own skin or maybe even
grow out of it when the road to acceptance and
healing is so rough and bumpy. Hey everyone, it's Zach.
(00:26):
Welcome back to In the Deep Stories that Shape Us.
Did you catch my conversation with Yolo Kille Robinson in
the last episode, because if not, go check it out
right after this. It's a good one. We all need
a friend like Yolo reminding us that there is power
in living our truth and that repressed trauma can show
up unexpectedly in ways that hurt even those we love.
(00:46):
And on a lighter note, you'll also hear how Yolo's
military father similar to my own aunt to Joy and
watching us wash, yes literally wash the stones in their garden.
You just gotta listen to understand, all right, So we
all know those people that, despite anything that comes their way,
always seem to be in high spirits, always smiling, creating,
(01:08):
just spreading good vibes all the time. Our guest today
is no exception. She recently starred in the movie Bros.
She produced her own show, The T. S. Madison Experience,
and it's even featured in Beyonce's song Cozy off her
latest album. But despite all the success behind the fierce
old woman is also one who, like many of us,
is tired and one who has overcome big struggles and
(01:31):
her journey to become her authentic self. I'm a huge
fan of T. S. Madison, not just because of her work,
but also because of who she is and what she represents.
She's always been so real, so authentically herself, which is
something that many of us wished to be all without worry.
But despite being herself, she's also just like us, longing
(01:52):
for the same things happiness, success and healing. So to
begin our conversation today, I wondered how she felt about
it all, her success, how she bounces the contradiction of
her life being bigger than ever, but also wanting to
sit it home and just relax. To be honest with you,
(02:14):
It's a thing that goes on in my head all
the time, like I don't want to seem ungrateful to God,
and I like constantly working, but like I'm exhausted right now.
I want to take some time and relax, and I
want to do it with someone that I love. I
really would like to do that. You know, that's very
difficult being busy and being so enthralled in your career
(02:35):
and enthralled in this life cycle that you've built for yourself.
But then when you get home and you have nobody
did you really doing it with or kicking it with?
You know, I have to tell myself, Madison, you manifested
this career that you have, so you need to get
back into your manifest room and manifests your personal life.
(02:55):
You want to make sure that you're having a personal
life with someone that appreciates it, or someone that you
know under or with someone that's not there for an opportunity,
because this is most definitely the time in your life
where you run into people who are opportunistic and they
can become you know, they can see you as a
cover up m hm. And you don't want to be
(03:15):
laying in the bed with a person who's plotting on you,
and and it does happen, and I don't I don't
want to be that person that it happens too. Yeah,
especially because in your life, from what I know, from
what I read and here, you know, you've always had
to fight to be here and to fight to thrive.
And it sounds like you don't want to have to
also fight when you're laying in bed with someone about like,
(03:36):
are you here for the right things? Are you here
for because you love me? It's Edward Snowden leaks confidential
CIA documents and flees to Russia. Beyonce debuted her self
titled album By Surprise, and people like Kim Kardashian are
doing more and more to quote break the Internet. It's
a time filled with booty licious selfies and self promotion,
(03:59):
one feeling more wild than the next because everyone wants
to updo the last viral sensation. It's also a time
where we see the rise of the Vine and now
dead social media platform where you could upload self made videos,
and then one day this year, Maddie decides to release
a vine that rocked the Internet. Everything I've done in
(04:20):
this world has been about me surviving. You know, you
don't know the cards that you're dealt. You just know
when you get up, you gotta play their hand. And um,
I was steal into the adult film industry. My website
was strong, but I also wanted to get a reach
a wider audience. I started posting a little nude crips
with me, a little funny nude clips because when I
(04:42):
used to do adult film, my adult films were very satire,
very funny. It was sex, but it was satire. So
I found the outlet call Vine, and on Vine it
was six seconds of you know, posting little videos. I
have to make sure that I say this so that
people can understand. Before I even posted on the vine app.
(05:03):
I made sure that there were other adult or nude
or other things there before I posted them. I was
not trying to post adult or new things in places
where there was no other new things. I wasn't trying
to infiltrate that space. So I just trying to promote
my product. Honey. I posted Knew, We've Knew, We Yes.
(05:26):
A guy picked it up from New Orleans as a
straight guy picked it up and was so enthralled of
like why does this woman have a penis? Like why
does this fat woman have a penis? And he doesn't
even know The seed that he planted in the ground
just threw me into a viral space, whatever he meant
(05:47):
to be for joking or to poke fund at me
or whatever. It really catapulted my career to a whole
another direction. But at first the response to it was
very negative. I had to go through had to crawl
through ship to get to sugar. And the negative response
I received was from my community because at that time,
it was like when Laverne Cox was on the cover
(06:08):
of Time magazine or just New Black Without. You know,
it was called the transgender tipping point, and so because
of that, I was looked at as the villain and
she was the hero because it was like your counterproductive madesty,
Like you're showing your nude body and you're doing this
stuff and you're just the detriment to the movement, and
(06:30):
we'll be trying to do for trads people. Fast forward
to now, I'm looking at now and how my presence
was a necessary component because you got the opportunity to
see trads people on all spectrums. You had an opportunity
to see Laverne shine at her glory, and you also
got to see me breaking down barriers about trans bodies
(06:51):
and sex workers and adult film and things like that.
I was only in this thing trying to survive and whatever.
They posted those little clips and stuff with me. I
never posted them on Facebook or Twitter or is. I
never did that. It was the masses of people posted there,
and it caused so much discussion and awareness around trays
(07:13):
people and trans people's bodies and stuff like that. So
I didn't even know that I was doing a revolutionary act.
I only was trying to freaking make my money to survive.
When you're someone so sure of yourself like Maddie, it's
rare that people can hurt you with their comments, especially
when they come from a place of hate. But she
(07:34):
had a different reaction when she received painful backlash from
her own community when she had helped build and protect
Because when her own community cast her against transactors Laverne Cox,
she felt like the other. With Laverne being the poster
child for what good trans women should be and Maddie
now being the opposite. It felt like a betrayal, a
(07:54):
slap in the face to be chastised by the very
community that's supposed to protect her. I had a lot
of people that were making fun of me, like, you know,
like oh, she's so fat, or he is a fat
man with a Those are man boobs, you know. And
so the one thing about me, I've always been confident
(08:15):
in myself, comfortable in my skin. It didn't bother me
like that. But what bothered me the most was, you know,
my community attacking me. I was in my space, in
my world, doing my own thing. I let everybody who
would somebody be somebody, and I was just trying to
be me in my space. I was more so angry
(08:36):
at the conversation around my presence and how my presence
was like a detriment to people. And I'm like, those
people don't give a dam about me. What I'm trying
to pay my bills, when I'm trying to survive, when
I'm trying to eat, what I'm trying to live somewhere.
I can't go to the people to ask for no
red buddy, or no light bill buddy, or no food buddy.
(08:58):
I'm trying to make money. But it made me agry
because it's just like you, you try to vilify me
for surviving. I love Laverne because Laverne is our pioneers,
She's our hero. But for them to say that, you know,
I was a detriman like that, that mentally misses with
(09:20):
you a little bit because and it's like people don't understand,
like that would pick two girls against each other. Yeah,
and you know America loves to pitt black women against
each other. We have two black trains women visible, let's
make them fight. It just felt very counterproductive. I respect her,
you know, and I love her for what she is
doing and what she has done. And when I had
(09:40):
the opportunity to talk to her and tell her that
this is what was going or, she's like, oh my god,
she said she hates things like that, and I do
because it's like, bro, she's who she is. Like, we're
not all to say we're not a monolist. She is
who she is. I'm who I am, you know. And
that was hurtful to be hanging it out as a villain.
(10:03):
But even through the backlash, Maddie didn't back down. Instead,
she doubled down on her authenticity, her name, her past.
She never shied away from her sex work even instead,
she took pride in it and kept the t S
and her name. And for those that don't know, t
S is a code trans women used to identify as
sex workers online as a symbol and a message to
(10:24):
break the stigma. After I watched all the hate, I
saw the love that I was getting from people like,
oh my god, I love you, t s, thank you
for you know, making BBCT or you know, just like
little stuff like that. And then I would see kids
courting no way of twenty two inches and come on in,
(10:47):
you know stuff. I would see it and it will
find it funny. But what made me lean in was
now that I have your attention, let me talk to you.
They're girls like me that are out there in the
world that are trying to survive, that are insects work,
who are sex workers because they've got to pay their bills,
not because it's a choice that they've made. So let
me talk to you about sex workers. Since we're talking.
(11:08):
Let let me talk to you about the secular life.
Since we're talking, since you listen it, you know, let
me get in here, make you laugh and then tell
you a story. Let me take control of the narrative.
Let me get in here and take control of this
and steer you in the right direction. This is what
we're doing, this is why I'm doing this, and this
is what you need to know. This. I'm not the
(11:29):
only one out there. I might be the one that
you see it now, but I'm not the only one.
Yeah yeah. And what's also you did at the same
time you began, you know, telling the truth, telling your
own truth, having a conversation, but you also are having
really authentic conversations where you weren't saying I'm the expert,
this is my life. I'm gonna tell you about my life.
How did you know to do that? Because you'll say,
(11:50):
like you, I know, there's an amazing club Ice and
my friends all the time where you call your friend
a faget I think, and then you say, oh, queen,
here's the thing. People see visibility, and they see it
it as one way. And it's important for me to
let people know that I am not the way, the truth,
the light. I am my way. I am my truth.
(12:12):
I am my light. You understand what I'm saying and
the way you treat me. Someone else may require you
to treat them a different way. Handle each one of
us individually. But when you don't know, you ask, Because
even me in this situation right now, I'm forty five
years old, forty five okay, and I still mess up,
(12:34):
get it wrong. And when I mess up and get
it wrong. I'm not above reproach. I'm not above you know,
reprimand I'm not above it. But what I'm confused, I ask,
just like when I get into situations with the they
and them pronounced, I'm like, Okay, times are evolving, How
do I use this in the sentence? How do I
approach people? And so it's important that I lead by example.
(12:57):
It's important that we lead by example. We can't tell people, oh, well,
this is the proper way to treat me if you
don't show an example of it. And I'm definitely an
example of getting some ship wrong m because I loosely
say fag but I said amongst my friends or you know,
like girl friends that I know you know that understand.
It's just like we black people using the inn word. Yeah,
(13:19):
it's our word. Now, honey, we took the power back.
It's our word. You can't use that. I think that's
a way more productive way of moving through the world
is to say we're not perfect. I don't know everything,
but this is what I do know, and this is
what's based off my experience. And it does seem that
people are really responsive to that type of truth telling.
And I just have never seen anyone and do that before.
Does that shock you that you're telling your truth continues
(13:41):
to have such a positive impact. You know, honestly, people
like the wrong is to me the wrong stuff, and
you know people respond better to wrong because it's it's
not fiction, it's not a script. But I also know
when and where to give a lot and to give enough,
and being wrong, being authentic, being herself is exactly what
(14:03):
Maddie does best. One of her most iconic videos, titled
Bitch I'm Black, even caught the eye of one of
the world's biggest superstars, Beyonce. But more than the celebrity
and visibility, it's a message behind the video that's important
here that regardless of how much pain and hurt and
suffering we as black people are facing, it's still our
own people, sis gender black men in particular, who aren't
(14:25):
doing enough to protect her in public, and she manages
to capture the essence of the confusion within the video,
showing that trans women deserve to be loved and respected
in public and not just behind closed doors. To hear
beyonce voice meshed with mine is an amazing thing just
(14:48):
for that, Like, that's freaking Beyonce to hear her voice
mesh with mine, but then to hear her voice mesh
with mine on a statement to the people, I'm dog scared,
light scared, beige, fluorescent, bige, bitch are black. The message
that I was trying to give to the world was
(15:10):
taken further than I could ever even give it by
a global phenomenon who got it, who got the message,
And it just made me feel like Matta say, your
voice is never invadue. The things that you stand for
is not invague because you have a global superstar, a
global phenomenon who has elevated your voice to the highest
(15:33):
plateau h CO signing the things that you were talking about.
I can't explain it. Do you feel with the song
out there and people hearing your voice more through that
song and that specific message you were giving, which is,
you know, protect black trans women. Was the message that
trades women just protect us? Do you think people are
hearing that now? And how are like black men hearing
the song in your own life right now? This is
(15:55):
about a black movement all around, not just straight black people,
but l g B t q i A Black people,
particularly black trains women, Like Wow, this is a powerful
message that I need to listen to. I think that
the response has been bringing more awareness and it's making
people more comfortable, really comfortable, and they're scared and comfortable with,
(16:19):
you know, sharing their blackness because I think what happens
is with black people, we only want to share our
blackness with black women. Let me just go there. Do
you have to be comfortable with sharing your black womanhood
with other aspects? With other areas of black women, Black
trays women exist, and so you have to be comfortable
(16:42):
and sharing those lived experiences with each other. We have
to be comfortable doing that. And I think that that's
definitely what Beyonce's voice best with biod is definitely saved.
It definitely does put out the message that like my womanhood,
Beyonce is the same womanhood as Maddie's womanhood, and we
all need and not only see that, but also sing
the song about it and celebrate that in the streets,
(17:05):
which is why it's such a radical moment. And you know,
do you find I'd love to know do you find
that type of messaging, you know, you and Beyonce together
more impactful for black trans women than you know, just
the reports about all the violence, Because I feel like
black trans women and why I love what you do
so much is you bring so much joy to the forefront.
And a lot of times when we hear about black
trans women in the media, it's about death, you know, murder,
(17:26):
all these bad things that you and Beyonce in that
moment are really saying. You know, we're gonna celebrate this,
We're gonna talk about it. Is that more impactful. We're
combating the negativity, We're combating the evils that's out there,
and we'll celebrate. We'll saying, listen, damn all that other stuff,
you know, put the arms down, or put the hate down,
and fight the real Itoby here, fight the real Itoby,
(17:49):
fight the real internalized how befhobia, the internalized transphobia. You know,
fight this within our community hood. Let me bridge the
gap in between and elevate, you know, our voices so
that we can saying, oh, what a chord. I personally
think that you know, this goes hand in hand with
each other. It's hard to combat the stigma, the negativity
(18:10):
that comes with being you, especially in a place like
the South. I'm also from the South, and I'm too
familiar with the juxtaposition of feelings those opposing thoughts that
come from the church versus your family or even ourselves.
And sometimes I wonder if in places like the South,
where so many people like Maddie and the exist, if
things are progressing fast enough for change. I think that
(18:34):
black people are are subconsciously homophobic, it transphobic, because it's
something today inherited, and there are even gay people. It
trades people who are transphobic and homophobic because we were
raised up into these these hopes like this, and so
(18:54):
I don't think that it's our fault because this is
something that's been generationally is in us. But I just
think that visibility, like with girls like myself and other
girls who who are standing for and who who because
I openly talk about my love for God and and
the way that I feel about how God is impactful
in my life and how my whole career and my
whole presence is God is the reason for it. So
(19:19):
I think that that kind of like offset some of
the struggles that we have as queer people with believe
it in God and professing our faith to God, you know.
And then we have people like Kimberreil, who's always in
the media for that nasty ship that she says towards
the LGBT people and and just people in general, like,
it's just the body of Christ, the fake body of Christ,
(19:41):
I should say, because the body of Christ lives within us,
all the presence of Christ lives within us, all but
the fake body. We're seeing so many people of the Church,
so many people of the cloth coming forward, and things
are being exposed that we're like, girl, we're not nobody's
thinking about that. Did nobody think about the church? What
(20:02):
those Church of people say? Funk that? I love the Lord.
I have no doubt Maddie is going to accomplish all
these things and more. But in matters of the heart,
especially as a trans woman, I wanted to know how
she managed the other because even as confident, bold and
loving as she is, the challenge of dating as a
(20:23):
trans woman is difficult when people are not living their truth.
I wanted to know what did love represent for Maddie
and how did she deal with the transphobia and homophobia
she had faced five years ago. Somebody asked me, where
do you see yourself in five years? And I said,
how do you know? I want this? I want this.
(20:44):
Some of that stuff happens some of it did. I
am going to walk in the footsteps of what God
has for me to walk here. I know what I
would like to have. I want this at what a
bigger house? And what more? Buddy? I want this? But
whatever it is that God has for me to do,
That's what I want to do. And I want to
(21:05):
occupy all those spaces that God has you know, created
for me specifically for me. I want the roles He
has for me. I want the you know, the shows
He has for me, whether it's television, theater, broadway. Feel
and out of everything you just said, which I think
(21:25):
you should get and we'll get all those things. You
didn't bring up love, which is where we began, was
love and feeling held. What does love look like for you? Special?
You know, we don't talk enough about the stigma black
trans women face, especially from straight man in the black community,
and like what you have to deal with every day
just looking for love? So how are you navigating that?
(21:45):
Just the fact that like straight men are transphobic and
you're dealing with that on top of everything else. What
is love? Baby, don't hurt me, don't hurt me, nobo ah?
What is it? What is love? I found myself loving
people more than than they ever loved me. I found
myself being co dependent on the people. I found myself
(22:11):
being a mob to someone that should be a husband
or boyfriend. I'm gonna ask God to designed someone for me,
specifically for me that's masculinity, isn't fragile, that is secure
with it himself as a man, and who loves, appreciates,
(22:34):
cherishes me, pushes me. It equally meets me with the
love that I give to him equally. I want us
to share the same love, any bullshit and feeling for
each other equally. M Hopefully I get it before I
leave earth. Hopefully I want that for you too. And
(22:56):
it feels like the only bearer you have to that
is just sure eight men not living in an environment
that says loving a black trans woman is the same love?
Am I right there? You're correct, You're you're extremely correct
about that, because you know there being that be that
like transform but not go to identify as gay. Bid. Yeah,
they're not going to do that, so you know. But
(23:18):
I mean, I've I've been dating bid who are comfortable,
but it's just other hiccups that are at all. Yeah,
before I could let her go, I want to know
what advice she had for men looking for love, especially
the men who are struggling with how to talk about
the relationship with the trans woman. Well, I think that
(23:42):
you know, when it boils down to it, who's going
to wipe your asks when you're a d who's going
to tuck you in? Is the world going to do
that for you? Or if the person you love going
to do that for you? Love go the distance? For
what will go the distance for you? And everybody that's
(24:02):
outside talking about what you should love and how you
should love it, who you should love, Tell them to
come ere and love you. If they're not gonna come
here and love you, let me do what I need
to do. Let me receive this love, let me give
this love. And man, it's just like I think men
lives so in a space of what others think and
(24:23):
others say, like like, fuck the world, it's about you.
Maddie's energy is so contagious. It makes you want to
be your best self, the truest form of you. And
it's wild to think that there was a time where
people made her feel less them or like a villain
of sorts because she's so great at protecting herself and
(24:45):
her energy. But it's this vulnerability that makes me love
her even more because it shows that even the strongest people,
the people that hold us down on our worst days,
are really just like us. What's inspiring about Maddie is
that even on her off days, she manages to impact change.
Like her viral videos, when she is her boldest, her loudest,
(25:06):
at her most vulnerable is when she heals and overcomes
the stigmas that plague her in her community at large.
We are so excited for you to be here season
two of In the Deep Stories That Shape Us. Keep
coming back every other week and taking these powerful stories
of Black and Latin people as they take us on
their own healing journeys. In the Deep Stories That Shape
(25:29):
Us is executive produced by myself, Zach Stafford, and Ivan
Chien and mastered by James Foster and our writer is
Yvette Lopez. A shout out to our guests T S.
Madison
Learning to love ourselves and our messy and complicated truth
is hard enough. But what happens when you have that
feeling of otherness just hanging over your head, where you
don't feel understood even within your own tribe. How do
you confidently grow into your own skin or maybe even
grow out of it when the road to acceptance and
healing is so rough and bumpy. Hey everyone, it's Zach.
(00:26):
Welcome back to In the Deep Stories that Shape Us.
Did you catch my conversation with Yolo Kille Robinson in
the last episode, because if not, go check it out
right after this. It's a good one. We all need
a friend like Yolo reminding us that there is power
in living our truth and that repressed trauma can show
up unexpectedly in ways that hurt even those we love.
(00:46):
And on a lighter note, you'll also hear how Yolo's
military father similar to my own aunt to Joy and
watching us wash, yes literally wash the stones in their garden.
You just gotta listen to understand, all right, So we
all know those people that, despite anything that comes their way,
always seem to be in high spirits, always smiling, creating,
(01:08):
just spreading good vibes all the time. Our guest today
is no exception. She recently starred in the movie Bros.
She produced her own show, The T. S. Madison Experience,
and it's even featured in Beyonce's song Cozy off her
latest album. But despite all the success behind the fierce
old woman is also one who, like many of us,
is tired and one who has overcome big struggles and
(01:31):
her journey to become her authentic self. I'm a huge
fan of T. S. Madison, not just because of her work,
but also because of who she is and what she represents.
She's always been so real, so authentically herself, which is
something that many of us wished to be all without worry.
But despite being herself, she's also just like us, longing
(01:52):
for the same things happiness, success and healing. So to
begin our conversation today, I wondered how she felt about
it all, her success, how she bounces the contradiction of
her life being bigger than ever, but also wanting to
sit it home and just relax. To be honest with you,
(02:14):
It's a thing that goes on in my head all
the time, like I don't want to seem ungrateful to God,
and I like constantly working, but like I'm exhausted right now.
I want to take some time and relax, and I
want to do it with someone that I love. I
really would like to do that. You know, that's very
difficult being busy and being so enthralled in your career
(02:35):
and enthralled in this life cycle that you've built for yourself.
But then when you get home and you have nobody
did you really doing it with or kicking it with?
You know, I have to tell myself, Madison, you manifested
this career that you have, so you need to get
back into your manifest room and manifests your personal life.
(02:55):
You want to make sure that you're having a personal
life with someone that appreciates it, or someone that you
know under or with someone that's not there for an opportunity,
because this is most definitely the time in your life
where you run into people who are opportunistic and they
can become you know, they can see you as a
cover up m hm. And you don't want to be
(03:15):
laying in the bed with a person who's plotting on you,
and and it does happen, and I don't I don't
want to be that person that it happens too. Yeah,
especially because in your life, from what I know, from
what I read and here, you know, you've always had
to fight to be here and to fight to thrive.
And it sounds like you don't want to have to
also fight when you're laying in bed with someone about like,
(03:36):
are you here for the right things? Are you here
for because you love me? It's Edward Snowden leaks confidential
CIA documents and flees to Russia. Beyonce debuted her self
titled album By Surprise, and people like Kim Kardashian are
doing more and more to quote break the Internet. It's
a time filled with booty licious selfies and self promotion,
(03:59):
one feeling more wild than the next because everyone wants
to updo the last viral sensation. It's also a time
where we see the rise of the Vine and now
dead social media platform where you could upload self made videos,
and then one day this year, Maddie decides to release
a vine that rocked the Internet. Everything I've done in
(04:20):
this world has been about me surviving. You know, you
don't know the cards that you're dealt. You just know
when you get up, you gotta play their hand. And um,
I was steal into the adult film industry. My website
was strong, but I also wanted to get a reach
a wider audience. I started posting a little nude crips
with me, a little funny nude clips because when I
(04:42):
used to do adult film, my adult films were very satire,
very funny. It was sex, but it was satire. So
I found the outlet call Vine, and on Vine it
was six seconds of you know, posting little videos. I
have to make sure that I say this so that
people can understand. Before I even posted on the vine app.
(05:03):
I made sure that there were other adult or nude
or other things there before I posted them. I was
not trying to post adult or new things in places
where there was no other new things. I wasn't trying
to infiltrate that space. So I just trying to promote
my product. Honey. I posted Knew, We've Knew, We Yes.
(05:26):
A guy picked it up from New Orleans as a
straight guy picked it up and was so enthralled of
like why does this woman have a penis? Like why
does this fat woman have a penis? And he doesn't
even know The seed that he planted in the ground
just threw me into a viral space, whatever he meant
(05:47):
to be for joking or to poke fund at me
or whatever. It really catapulted my career to a whole
another direction. But at first the response to it was
very negative. I had to go through had to crawl
through ship to get to sugar. And the negative response
I received was from my community because at that time,
it was like when Laverne Cox was on the cover
(06:08):
of Time magazine or just New Black Without. You know,
it was called the transgender tipping point, and so because
of that, I was looked at as the villain and
she was the hero because it was like your counterproductive madesty,
Like you're showing your nude body and you're doing this
stuff and you're just the detriment to the movement, and
(06:30):
we'll be trying to do for trads people. Fast forward
to now, I'm looking at now and how my presence
was a necessary component because you got the opportunity to
see trads people on all spectrums. You had an opportunity
to see Laverne shine at her glory, and you also
got to see me breaking down barriers about trans bodies
(06:51):
and sex workers and adult film and things like that.
I was only in this thing trying to survive and whatever.
They posted those little clips and stuff with me. I
never posted them on Facebook or Twitter or is. I
never did that. It was the masses of people posted there,
and it caused so much discussion and awareness around trays
(07:13):
people and trans people's bodies and stuff like that. So
I didn't even know that I was doing a revolutionary act.
I only was trying to freaking make my money to survive.
When you're someone so sure of yourself like Maddie, it's
rare that people can hurt you with their comments, especially
when they come from a place of hate. But she
(07:34):
had a different reaction when she received painful backlash from
her own community when she had helped build and protect
Because when her own community cast her against transactors Laverne Cox,
she felt like the other. With Laverne being the poster
child for what good trans women should be and Maddie
now being the opposite. It felt like a betrayal, a
(07:54):
slap in the face to be chastised by the very
community that's supposed to protect her. I had a lot
of people that were making fun of me, like, you know,
like oh, she's so fat, or he is a fat
man with a Those are man boobs, you know. And
so the one thing about me, I've always been confident
(08:15):
in myself, comfortable in my skin. It didn't bother me
like that. But what bothered me the most was, you know,
my community attacking me. I was in my space, in
my world, doing my own thing. I let everybody who
would somebody be somebody, and I was just trying to
be me in my space. I was more so angry
(08:36):
at the conversation around my presence and how my presence
was like a detriment to people. And I'm like, those
people don't give a dam about me. What I'm trying
to pay my bills, when I'm trying to survive, when
I'm trying to eat, what I'm trying to live somewhere.
I can't go to the people to ask for no
red buddy, or no light bill buddy, or no food buddy.
(08:58):
I'm trying to make money. But it made me agry
because it's just like you, you try to vilify me
for surviving. I love Laverne because Laverne is our pioneers,
She's our hero. But for them to say that, you know,
I was a detriman like that, that mentally misses with
(09:20):
you a little bit because and it's like people don't understand,
like that would pick two girls against each other. Yeah,
and you know America loves to pitt black women against
each other. We have two black trains women visible, let's
make them fight. It just felt very counterproductive. I respect her,
you know, and I love her for what she is
doing and what she has done. And when I had
(09:40):
the opportunity to talk to her and tell her that
this is what was going or, she's like, oh my god,
she said she hates things like that, and I do
because it's like, bro, she's who she is. Like, we're
not all to say we're not a monolist. She is
who she is. I'm who I am, you know. And
that was hurtful to be hanging it out as a villain.
(10:03):
But even through the backlash, Maddie didn't back down. Instead,
she doubled down on her authenticity, her name, her past.
She never shied away from her sex work even instead,
she took pride in it and kept the t S
and her name. And for those that don't know, t
S is a code trans women used to identify as
sex workers online as a symbol and a message to
(10:24):
break the stigma. After I watched all the hate, I
saw the love that I was getting from people like,
oh my god, I love you, t s, thank you
for you know, making BBCT or you know, just like
little stuff like that. And then I would see kids
courting no way of twenty two inches and come on in,
(10:47):
you know stuff. I would see it and it will
find it funny. But what made me lean in was
now that I have your attention, let me talk to you.
They're girls like me that are out there in the
world that are trying to survive, that are insects work,
who are sex workers because they've got to pay their bills,
not because it's a choice that they've made. So let
me talk to you about sex workers. Since we're talking.
(11:08):
Let let me talk to you about the secular life.
Since we're talking, since you listen it, you know, let
me get in here, make you laugh and then tell
you a story. Let me take control of the narrative.
Let me get in here and take control of this
and steer you in the right direction. This is what
we're doing, this is why I'm doing this, and this
is what you need to know. This. I'm not the
(11:29):
only one out there. I might be the one that
you see it now, but I'm not the only one.
Yeah yeah. And what's also you did at the same
time you began, you know, telling the truth, telling your
own truth, having a conversation, but you also are having
really authentic conversations where you weren't saying I'm the expert,
this is my life. I'm gonna tell you about my life.
How did you know to do that? Because you'll say,
(11:50):
like you, I know, there's an amazing club Ice and
my friends all the time where you call your friend
a faget I think, and then you say, oh, queen,
here's the thing. People see visibility, and they see it
it as one way. And it's important for me to
let people know that I am not the way, the truth,
the light. I am my way. I am my truth.
(12:12):
I am my light. You understand what I'm saying and
the way you treat me. Someone else may require you
to treat them a different way. Handle each one of
us individually. But when you don't know, you ask, Because
even me in this situation right now, I'm forty five
years old, forty five okay, and I still mess up,
(12:34):
get it wrong. And when I mess up and get
it wrong. I'm not above reproach. I'm not above you know,
reprimand I'm not above it. But what I'm confused, I ask,
just like when I get into situations with the they
and them pronounced, I'm like, Okay, times are evolving, How
do I use this in the sentence? How do I
approach people? And so it's important that I lead by example.
(12:57):
It's important that we lead by example. We can't tell people, oh, well,
this is the proper way to treat me if you
don't show an example of it. And I'm definitely an
example of getting some ship wrong m because I loosely
say fag but I said amongst my friends or you know,
like girl friends that I know you know that understand.
It's just like we black people using the inn word. Yeah,
(13:19):
it's our word. Now, honey, we took the power back.
It's our word. You can't use that. I think that's
a way more productive way of moving through the world
is to say we're not perfect. I don't know everything,
but this is what I do know, and this is
what's based off my experience. And it does seem that
people are really responsive to that type of truth telling.
And I just have never seen anyone and do that before.
Does that shock you that you're telling your truth continues
(13:41):
to have such a positive impact. You know, honestly, people
like the wrong is to me the wrong stuff, and
you know people respond better to wrong because it's it's
not fiction, it's not a script. But I also know
when and where to give a lot and to give enough,
and being wrong, being authentic, being herself is exactly what
(14:03):
Maddie does best. One of her most iconic videos, titled
Bitch I'm Black, even caught the eye of one of
the world's biggest superstars, Beyonce. But more than the celebrity
and visibility, it's a message behind the video that's important
here that regardless of how much pain and hurt and
suffering we as black people are facing, it's still our
own people, sis gender black men in particular, who aren't
(14:25):
doing enough to protect her in public, and she manages
to capture the essence of the confusion within the video,
showing that trans women deserve to be loved and respected
in public and not just behind closed doors. To hear
beyonce voice meshed with mine is an amazing thing just
(14:48):
for that, Like, that's freaking Beyonce to hear her voice
mesh with mine, but then to hear her voice mesh
with mine on a statement to the people, I'm dog scared,
light scared, beige, fluorescent, bige, bitch are black. The message
that I was trying to give to the world was
(15:10):
taken further than I could ever even give it by
a global phenomenon who got it, who got the message,
And it just made me feel like Matta say, your
voice is never invadue. The things that you stand for
is not invague because you have a global superstar, a
global phenomenon who has elevated your voice to the highest
(15:33):
plateau h CO signing the things that you were talking about.
I can't explain it. Do you feel with the song
out there and people hearing your voice more through that
song and that specific message you were giving, which is,
you know, protect black trans women. Was the message that
trades women just protect us? Do you think people are
hearing that now? And how are like black men hearing
the song in your own life right now? This is
(15:55):
about a black movement all around, not just straight black people,
but l g B t q i A Black people,
particularly black trains women, Like Wow, this is a powerful
message that I need to listen to. I think that
the response has been bringing more awareness and it's making
people more comfortable, really comfortable, and they're scared and comfortable with,
(16:19):
you know, sharing their blackness because I think what happens
is with black people, we only want to share our
blackness with black women. Let me just go there. Do
you have to be comfortable with sharing your black womanhood
with other aspects? With other areas of black women, Black
trays women exist, and so you have to be comfortable
(16:42):
and sharing those lived experiences with each other. We have
to be comfortable doing that. And I think that that's
definitely what Beyonce's voice best with biod is definitely saved.
It definitely does put out the message that like my womanhood,
Beyonce is the same womanhood as Maddie's womanhood, and we
all need and not only see that, but also sing
the song about it and celebrate that in the streets,
(17:05):
which is why it's such a radical moment. And you know,
do you find I'd love to know do you find
that type of messaging, you know, you and Beyonce together
more impactful for black trans women than you know, just
the reports about all the violence, Because I feel like
black trans women and why I love what you do
so much is you bring so much joy to the forefront.
And a lot of times when we hear about black
trans women in the media, it's about death, you know, murder,
(17:26):
all these bad things that you and Beyonce in that
moment are really saying. You know, we're gonna celebrate this,
We're gonna talk about it. Is that more impactful. We're
combating the negativity, We're combating the evils that's out there,
and we'll celebrate. We'll saying, listen, damn all that other stuff,
you know, put the arms down, or put the hate down,
and fight the real Itoby here, fight the real Itoby,
(17:49):
fight the real internalized how befhobia, the internalized transphobia. You know,
fight this within our community hood. Let me bridge the
gap in between and elevate, you know, our voices so
that we can saying, oh, what a chord. I personally
think that you know, this goes hand in hand with
each other. It's hard to combat the stigma, the negativity
(18:10):
that comes with being you, especially in a place like
the South. I'm also from the South, and I'm too
familiar with the juxtaposition of feelings those opposing thoughts that
come from the church versus your family or even ourselves.
And sometimes I wonder if in places like the South,
where so many people like Maddie and the exist, if
things are progressing fast enough for change. I think that
(18:34):
black people are are subconsciously homophobic, it transphobic, because it's
something today inherited, and there are even gay people. It
trades people who are transphobic and homophobic because we were
raised up into these these hopes like this, and so
(18:54):
I don't think that it's our fault because this is
something that's been generationally is in us. But I just
think that visibility, like with girls like myself and other
girls who who are standing for and who who because
I openly talk about my love for God and and
the way that I feel about how God is impactful
in my life and how my whole career and my
whole presence is God is the reason for it. So
(19:19):
I think that that kind of like offset some of
the struggles that we have as queer people with believe
it in God and professing our faith to God, you know.
And then we have people like Kimberreil, who's always in
the media for that nasty ship that she says towards
the LGBT people and and just people in general, like,
it's just the body of Christ, the fake body of Christ,
(19:41):
I should say, because the body of Christ lives within us,
all the presence of Christ lives within us, all but
the fake body. We're seeing so many people of the Church,
so many people of the cloth coming forward, and things
are being exposed that we're like, girl, we're not nobody's
thinking about that. Did nobody think about the church? What
(20:02):
those Church of people say? Funk that? I love the Lord.
I have no doubt Maddie is going to accomplish all
these things and more. But in matters of the heart,
especially as a trans woman, I wanted to know how
she managed the other because even as confident, bold and
loving as she is, the challenge of dating as a
(20:23):
trans woman is difficult when people are not living their truth.
I wanted to know what did love represent for Maddie
and how did she deal with the transphobia and homophobia
she had faced five years ago. Somebody asked me, where
do you see yourself in five years? And I said,
how do you know? I want this? I want this.
(20:44):
Some of that stuff happens some of it did. I
am going to walk in the footsteps of what God
has for me to walk here. I know what I
would like to have. I want this at what a
bigger house? And what more? Buddy? I want this? But
whatever it is that God has for me to do,
That's what I want to do. And I want to
(21:05):
occupy all those spaces that God has you know, created
for me specifically for me. I want the roles He
has for me. I want the you know, the shows
He has for me, whether it's television, theater, broadway. Feel
and out of everything you just said, which I think
(21:25):
you should get and we'll get all those things. You
didn't bring up love, which is where we began, was
love and feeling held. What does love look like for you? Special?
You know, we don't talk enough about the stigma black
trans women face, especially from straight man in the black community,
and like what you have to deal with every day
just looking for love? So how are you navigating that?
(21:45):
Just the fact that like straight men are transphobic and
you're dealing with that on top of everything else. What
is love? Baby, don't hurt me, don't hurt me, nobo ah?
What is it? What is love? I found myself loving
people more than than they ever loved me. I found
myself being co dependent on the people. I found myself
(22:11):
being a mob to someone that should be a husband
or boyfriend. I'm gonna ask God to designed someone for me,
specifically for me that's masculinity, isn't fragile, that is secure
with it himself as a man, and who loves, appreciates,
(22:34):
cherishes me, pushes me. It equally meets me with the
love that I give to him equally. I want us
to share the same love, any bullshit and feeling for
each other equally. M Hopefully I get it before I
leave earth. Hopefully I want that for you too. And
(22:56):
it feels like the only bearer you have to that
is just sure eight men not living in an environment
that says loving a black trans woman is the same love?
Am I right there? You're correct, You're you're extremely correct
about that, because you know there being that be that
like transform but not go to identify as gay. Bid. Yeah,
they're not going to do that, so you know. But
(23:18):
I mean, I've I've been dating bid who are comfortable,
but it's just other hiccups that are at all. Yeah,
before I could let her go, I want to know
what advice she had for men looking for love, especially
the men who are struggling with how to talk about
the relationship with the trans woman. Well, I think that
(23:42):
you know, when it boils down to it, who's going
to wipe your asks when you're a d who's going
to tuck you in? Is the world going to do
that for you? Or if the person you love going
to do that for you? Love go the distance? For
what will go the distance for you? And everybody that's
(24:02):
outside talking about what you should love and how you
should love it, who you should love, Tell them to
come ere and love you. If they're not gonna come
here and love you, let me do what I need
to do. Let me receive this love, let me give
this love. And man, it's just like I think men
lives so in a space of what others think and
(24:23):
others say, like like, fuck the world, it's about you.
Maddie's energy is so contagious. It makes you want to
be your best self, the truest form of you. And
it's wild to think that there was a time where
people made her feel less them or like a villain
of sorts because she's so great at protecting herself and
(24:45):
her energy. But it's this vulnerability that makes me love
her even more because it shows that even the strongest people,
the people that hold us down on our worst days,
are really just like us. What's inspiring about Maddie is
that even on her off days, she manages to impact change.
Like her viral videos, when she is her boldest, her loudest,
(25:06):
at her most vulnerable is when she heals and overcomes
the stigmas that plague her in her community at large.
We are so excited for you to be here season
two of In the Deep Stories That Shape Us. Keep
coming back every other week and taking these powerful stories
of Black and Latin people as they take us on
their own healing journeys. In the Deep Stories That Shape
(25:29):
Us is executive produced by myself, Zach Stafford, and Ivan
Chien and mastered by James Foster and our writer is
Yvette Lopez. A shout out to our guests T S.
Madison
Host
Zach Stafford
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