March 9, 2022 • 29 mins
Before becoming a religious leader, human rights activist, and entrepreneur, Bishop O.C. Allen III worked vigorously to gain access to prolific institutions - the ones that teach young men to be the best they can be.
And despite loving these places and their overall mission, he quickly realized that these institutions accepted only part of him - rejecting portions of himself that were too special to hide. And after trying to fit in, he quickly found himself remodeling the walls of these ‘safe spaces,’ instead painting them to the color of his own identity.
In this season finale, listen as he explains how he was able to amplify his mission via The Vision Church - creating an inclusive environment that teaches others to lean into their vulnerability, turning it into a superpower – one that encourages people to live in their truth, rather than die in a lie. Bishop Allen teaches us that the space within ourselves is the most important – because regardless of status, sexuality or circumstance, we are powerful and already enough, exactly as we are.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Have you ever wanted a safe space where you can
just exist, where for a moment in time, you can
be you, with all the intricacies and parts of you
that people don't always understand. Welcome to in the deep
stories that shape us. I'm your host, Zach Stafford, and
each episode we create a space to be you, all
of you and all your messy and complicated glory. Every
(00:25):
story shares what it means to be a black and
Latin X man living with different hardships, whether it's a
struggle of identity, discrimination or health, and how they've managed
to push forward despite the circumstance. We hope to get closer,
even it's just a little to a road of healing
and understanding. Welcome back to the final episode of the season,
(00:51):
and what a season it has been. Over the last
few weeks, we've spoken about identity, community, trust, and healing,
and in this closing episode we try to bring it
all together what it means to be authentically us in
all our complicated glory. We've heard stories of hardship, forgiveness
and redemption ultimately ending in a place filled with acceptance
and self love. And what better guests to help us
(01:12):
bring this season to a close than Bishop O. C.
Allen the Third, a religious trailblazer, human rights activists, and
founder of the Vision Church of Atlanta, whose journey as
a gay black man was defined by a number of places,
all juxtaposed in their definition of what a man looks like.
Bishop Allen's story largely begins at Atlanta, particularly at Morehouse College.
I was curious to hear about his first interactions here,
(01:35):
the college where he became the quintessential more House man,
a symbol of ultimate black masculinity, and a place filled
with contradictions of what he was meant to represent versus
who he truly was inside. I was born and raised
in Los Angeles, California, lived in New York, uh, lived
(01:56):
in Baltimore, and came to Atlanta. And I was totally
blown away because I grew up hearing about how Atlanta
was the Black Mecca, and you know, all of the
rhetoric that people, particularly in the nineties, we're using to
(02:19):
talk about Atlanta. It was exactly what they said. Coming
from the West Coast, I grew up in a profoundly
diverse environment and coming to Atlanta that, uh, it's diverse,
but I think it's sort of sectioned out and if
you will, in various communities, like a lot of other places.
(02:40):
But it just became very start that there was a
very strong Black presence and very deliberate Black culture and
legacy and history in Atlanta. And I thought that was
just astounding. Now I came to Atlanta, um broke confused
about a lot of different things, my own mental emotional
(03:01):
state as relates to my life and my sexuality and
and my culture and just all of that to some
very basic things. You know, I was trying to get
my financial aid together. You know, they lost all of
my information, you know, all of the just a lot
of chaos and conflict and questions that I had. You
know now that I look back in on hindsight as
(03:21):
always twenty or fifty fifty, and uh, I really thank
God and thank the universe for all of it. But
at the time I was just you know, it was
a lot. And I stayed with a family that was
a friend of my family and out in Marietta, and
I was in their basements, sleeping on the couch, and
(03:42):
I had a little black Nissan and um got to
campus and then was blown away on a whole another level,
and you know, that I was at this all black
male school that has such a powerful legacy, and the
moment you step on campus, you feel it, you understand
it in ways that are hard to articulate. UM. I
(04:06):
had gone to Morgan State University, which was an HBCU,
but you know, morehouse UM has a particular heritage and
tradition of nurturing young black men. Then, of course, underneath
the cover is this black gay culture space reality that
(04:31):
was just profound, and I hadn't reconciled and resolved everything
in my own life, and so it just brought all
the questions and all of the things to the surface.
Creating spaces that were reflective of his own identity, especially
within his community, was important for Bishop Allen, but he
(04:53):
would find out that these spaces were not created equal
and challenge the status quo, especially when it came to
issue use of masculinity. I was there when the young
brother was beaten in the shower with the bat. I
was there. As a matter of fact, Not only was
(05:14):
I there, but I was a part of a delegation
of young black gay men who created a space too
revolt and protest the administration about the homophobic climate and
making sure that there were um official statements by the campus.
(05:34):
I was a part of all of that. You know,
looking back at it, I think it's multilayer because I
think on one end there is the complications of moving
into a space that has the homophobia and the challenges.
But I would also say, at that age and that stage,
most black men are men in general, are still trying
(05:55):
to figure out life, and so it's easy to focus
on the homophile be which I think is important. Um,
it's also important to look at all the complexities of
just what's going on with you socially, sexually, mentally, emotionally
as you're trying to be come, what you think a
(06:16):
man is and what that means for you. And I
think Morehouse has a legacy of at least uh trying
to provide a space for people to figure that out,
men to figure that out. Yeah, you know that makes
me want to talk to you about the idea of
safe spaces. You know, we hear that word a lot,
(06:38):
especially with religious spaces, especially as churches are seen a
safe spaces. And I think people have this idea that
a safe space means that it won't be uncomfortable. But
what I've learned is that safe spaces can sometimes be
really uncomfortable because they're there to mold you and shape you.
Do you relate to that, or what are your thoughts
around that idea of when you go to a place,
like should you be catered to or should you be pushed?
(06:59):
I pushed, you know, I I don't know where I
sit completely on a lot of things that relates to
the term space. When we first started the ministry in particular,
we use a lot of the terms, you know, safe space,
safe space, space, space, And then I transition and said, well,
I don't know if any space is really safe any space,
like how safe is a space for anyone? Any space?
(07:22):
And is that the language that we're really looking for.
I think what we want is a bold space where
people figure out how to become their best selves, how
to tap into their potential and their purpose, bold enough
to push me. And I think that is the challenge
(07:42):
that I would like to call myself an honorary millennial,
honorary Generation zer um. But I think that's the problem
with Generation zers and millennials is they're looking for safety
and comfort, and that's not what makes us. We're not
a strong people. You're not a strong person. You're not
a strong woman, you're not a strong man, are a
(08:03):
strong human being because your space is without the tension.
If you look at any successful, profound person in history,
it is because they were thrown into the the gap
where the tension exists. And I think that cannot be
(08:24):
omitted from the process if we're going to be all
that we're supposed to be. Bishop Allen realizes that the
safe spaces don't represent him, all of him in full form.
There was certainly a need, especially for black men, straight men,
bisexual men, gay men, to be accepted exactly as they came,
much like he had done it morehouse, disrupting the status quo,
(08:45):
he decides to challenge one of the biggest institutions, the church.
He creates the Vision Church, a place where people from
all backgrounds and walks of life can freely preach and belong.
But bringing his vision to life would be a long
and trecious road of self discovery. It was powerful. Yet
I will say this, We all have a destiny. And
(09:08):
what do I mean by that? There is something I
saw of ourselves not only pulling us to it, but
um shaping the steps, you know, molding the staircase putting
the staircase in front of us. And so while I
was blown away by Atlanta, what I've come to understand
(09:29):
is that all of it was designed. The thing that
was consistent through all of it was I'm supposed to
be here. This is a part of my journey. I
didn't know where it was taking me. I didn't know
how I would get there. I didn't know all the particulars.
I certainly had an enormous amount of challenges in the process.
But I think even through my pursuit for equality with
(09:50):
so many other brothers on campus, um it was a
part of my molding. It was a part of my development,
was a part of my growth, and it was frightening.
I didn't fully understand how I would get to this
picture that I had in my head. I think I
(10:11):
was raised to believe I was a change agent. But
you know, when you're broke, and I say broke to
also include broken, when you're sleeping on the couch, all
you have is closed in your car and you're trying
(10:33):
to figure life out. When I first got to Moorhouse,
you wonder, how will I manifest this thing that I see?
And so I think most certainly it moved from fright
two almost this acceptance that you know, maybe I'm not
(10:56):
going to be a change agent to maybe I'm going
to be just a change a gent to myself, you know.
And it's fascinating to see just the road and the journey.
I would tell anybody you know, the staircase is long,
but it has a destination. And you must continue to walk.
(11:18):
Tired walk and if you cannot walk, crawl up the
damn stairs. Do whatever you have to do. You'll get there.
I promise you. That's part of my mantra. If you
will like it's the story of my life in spite
of all of the challenges as a black gay man
and that, and then as a leader and and and
(11:38):
as someone who believes he is called to help people
see who they are. You will get there with this
idea mind being the change agent to himself. First, Bishop
Allen had begun to crack the code, but finding the
value and meaning of individuality, especially in a place that
(11:58):
was so devoted to the better of an entire group
of people, force Bishop Allen to dig deeper. With his
role well defined as a leader, he had to continue
scaling his message by helping his community see their personal
internal beauty and greatness. I think that I'm going to
use some symbolic language. The right people are people who
(12:23):
serve as a net and an umbrella, you know, to
cover you. They got you. That net is to catch
you and to hold you. But it's all for the
purpose of helping you see more of who you can be.
Sometimes that happens through rejection, and it is easy. I
(12:46):
think the greatest deception is that rejection has no direction
mm hmm, and that we are sulk now I'm you're ready, okay?
That Sometimes the great deception for us is that a
lot of our rejection turns us into attention seekers and
affirmation seekers and acceptance seekers rather than using that rejection
(13:13):
or that tension, are those challenges, are those problematic people
to turn us inward? Because ultimately I believe you are
the AHA, you are the answer, you are the person,
you are the one, You are it. You are great,
you are phenomenal, you are brilliance. You're not brilliant, you
(13:33):
are brilliant. And it takes all of everyone to birth that,
to make that, to develop that, to manifest that in us.
But the challenges with rejection and trauma, it can force
us outward because we're rejected. We make acceptance a fetish.
(13:59):
We spend our entire lives trying to seek and get
acceptance rather than seeing that all of it was designed hopefully,
if it was designed to help us accept ourselves. And
and that's tough, and it's the truth is. It is
the lesson of life. It is the most difficult thing
(14:21):
to turn people inward to see who they are and
see their possibilities. But it takes the umbrellas, it takes
the nets, it takes the tension in between. In Atlanta,
a black mecca that is constantly intertwined with a complicated
mix of values, finding acceptance isn't always easy, and as
(14:41):
he knows, breaking out of this need for affirmation and
learning to love ourselves first isn't something we are used to.
So when it comes to matters of healing, especially in
regards to mental health, spiritual health, or physical health, creating
the spaces that allow people to heal the many parts
of themselves can be daunting. And as much as Bishop
Allan places and emphasis on redefining future spaces for ourselves
(15:02):
and for others, he also realizes that there are outside
forces at work. In particular, painful, oppressive parts of our
history that we collectively must address in order to move forward.
But how do we move past these deep wounds that
have collectively hurt community so profoundly, much like HIV, poverty
and racism, And how do these communities heal from their
(15:23):
history so that their futures are much brighter. It's multi layered.
And the thing that we don't talk about, you know,
HIV is much like COVID nineteen HIV, it raises up
all the disparities that influence it. You know, HIV is
(15:45):
a victim of homophobia, It's a victim of tortured religion.
It is the victim of poverty, it is the victim
of low, selfless same it is the victim of so much,
you know. And there are so many factors that play
(16:06):
a role in what causes us to be vulnerable. And
we cannot discount history. I don't know why. It's so,
We're just we have been trained to avoid history. We
have been taught to not put everything in its context.
(16:28):
Vulnerable populations have a history that was vulnerable. It makes
sense that the lives of black people are Let's talk
about the most vulnerable population. Young black gay men are
at risk because you live in the United States of amnesia.
(16:50):
And I know we want to move on, and if
we don't want to talk, I get it. We we
have been culturated in the same environment, in the same structure,
in the same system that has its roots and white supremacy.
That is the legacy, that is the culture, that is
the room, that is the space, that is that is
(17:11):
everything that is a determining factor on risk. And we
you know, as long as I live, I will not
not raise that because when we talk about every other disparity,
it could be economic disparity, it points in one direction
the history of this legacy of this country. We talk
about health disparity. But while this is what KNDA, what
(17:37):
Kanda steal sits in Georgia, and what KNDA is not
larger than Georgia. How are you sit in a space
of understanding the reality of your life and still wanting
to build more out of that understanding that you are
(17:57):
a black gay man that deals with all of the
off or you are a immigrant that's dealing with all
this stuff, And how do you get to a place
where you're like, yeah, I live in this really messy
place where I am oppressed. I have so much weighing
down on me, but that's not an excuse to not
want more for my life. Yeah, I think it is first,
And I may answer this in a very simplistic way,
so I'm not suggesting that it is simple. Their layers
(18:20):
and structures and all kinds of stuff that are designed
in the world. But I think ultimately it is understanding
who you are. You are a sexual being, but you're
greater than the sexuality. The melanine in your skin is
a biological reality, it's not your spiritual reality. You are
(18:44):
a spirit that found itself in a body maybe to
contain you, because you're that great and you're that phenomenal,
and you're that brilliant and you just had to walk
into some flesh to kind of walk it out. And
when you understand that, and you understand your power, you
(19:06):
understand who you are, you can accomplish anything. I believe
you are divine, and that is how I think we
become change agents. You cannot change the world around you
(19:27):
until you first change your own perception about you. What
advice you give to people, especially Black ay Men, who
are so afraid of standing in their truth because they
think that's one thing will define them, And how do
you get them to understand that that one thing will
not define them. It just is the beginning of a
much bigger conversation that will let them be bigger than
that one thing. I've said this is a lot of places.
(19:50):
I believe this wholeheartedly. That you must live in your
truth so that you don't die and a lie. Live
in your truth. It's your truth, and it is truth.
The greatest thing you have is your truth, yours. It's
not somebody else's truth, and it's no one else's truth
to define or to explain or It's like this term
(20:12):
coming out coming out of what I'm inviting you in.
There's no such thing as come out, come out of what,
if anything. If I'm coming out, I'm coming out to
come into something even greater than what I came out of.
I'm not coming out. I invite everyone in. So we
have to first change the language. We have to change
(20:32):
our own language about how we see ourselves. And again,
this is why I think if you put stuff in
the context of not religion, but in the context of
definity or spirituality, that you see yourself as greater than
your parts. Your parts are important too, because the other
(20:53):
thing that I don't want to discount is the beauty
of your parts. And our sexuality is beautiful and it's
a gift, and it's to be express and is to
be embraced. It is excellent. Like we must wrap our
heads around that uniqueness that out of the population, you
have been given even greater gifting, you know, even greater
(21:15):
brilliance in your sexuality because your sexuality, particularly those of
us who are lgbt Q I UM we're talking to,
particularly young black gay man. Because of it, you have
a particular wisdom and a particular insight, and a particular understanding,
a particular thing that has been given to you. Know,
(21:39):
other culture has understood that, whether it was indigenous and
native cultures, they understood that two spirit communities cultures in
Africa and in Asia, they understood that that first of all,
you have a gifting, and the gifting is you and
what you understand that, then you can move out of
this space of trying to get the world to affirm
(22:01):
what is already affirmed. It's affirm because it's you have it.
You have it, it is you. And once you can
do that, then you move out of vulnerability into what
I call true identity. You are greater than what some
(22:22):
evangelists said. The Bible never actually did say, or any
sacred text said, and if it did say it, it
was still written by somebody. Right. It doesn't matter however
you slice it. You are greater than the voices, particularly
(22:44):
the negative voices that have been spoken over you. For
those of us that often feel overwhelmed by the greatness
of the world, those of us that look up at
the stars that think, wow, I'm nothing, I'm so tiny
in the bigger scheme of things. This message that Bishop
Alan Bree is so important that your contributions to yourself
to others, regardless of how big or small, do matter.
(23:06):
And for him, learning our place in the space, this bigness,
as he calls it, helps us heal internally. Yeah, I
mean you were created out of that bigness. You came
out of that. Now. You know, if I was talking
to black people as a whole, a group of black people,
I would even get more mystical and say, you came
(23:29):
out of that black sky. Is you, that's you, and
that is in you, and it was created for you
and we are both anned. So you are a spec
but you're also the thing that created the spec and
(23:49):
I think so many spiritual teachers have have tried to
say that in one way or another. I think we
miss it because it is particularly you know, unfortunate lee
the Christian tradition I came out of, Like, I appreciate
you saying that you know taught us. You know you
are dusted, you are nothing, and you are just sing
and you are at all. Yeah, I don't believe that.
(24:13):
Like that absolutely contradicts everything I understand about God. Like
I am wonderfully made, I am beautifully made, I am everything.
Even my flaws have beauty. It's like a rose. You'll
look at the beauty of the rose and miss the
thorns if you're not careful. They're both on the same thing.
(24:37):
But that's what makes it beautiful. And we have to
see that. If we can see that, and it takes
work to see that, that's why we need more zacks,
we need we need more safe spaces really, because that's
the point. The point is helping us see who we are. Well,
it's easy to focus on the other stuff, but how
(24:58):
about we and our attention to our bigness rather than
our smallness. Yeah, I love saying this. A stereotype is
just a chapter in a book someone hasn't fully read.
Jet you know, for people out there and people out
there who think who take things like you know, their
sexuality there j V. Sat As, all these slices of them,
and if they think that's it that defines them, then
(25:19):
they need to change that, as you're saying, and see
the bigness be like, that is a beautiful piece of me.
But I am all these other things, and within that,
I am dust and I'm big. Let me tell you
why I love the story of Jesus so much, um,
and I would rather follow the principles of Jesus than
the religion of Jesus. Right that people the religion they
impolosed on Jesus. But you know what I absolutely absolutely
(25:43):
think is a very interesting way of looking at the story,
particularly at the end where you know he's carrying this
cross through a city and it's just I mean, it's
really painful and traumatic time for him, and you can
you know, people make it so religious, but I think
just the humanistic part of some man carrying a piece
(26:05):
of huge wood that's bigger than him, it's like carrying
your sexuality. And you know they nailed him to it.
That's like your sexuality. You know, people will nail you
too publicly. You know, even people who have been exposed.
(26:26):
What is it? Are your HIV status or you know,
crucify you or ship maybe you crucify yourself. Most of
us we crucify ourselves. We put ourselves on the cross
of our trauma. But what I luck about the story,
this is a great tie into Easter right that if
(26:48):
I were to turn it into metaphor, that Jesus takes
that same experience and turns that that whole thing into
my dynamic resurrection, like turns the whole thing upside down,
like they complete. I'm gonna use my sexuality and so
(27:09):
of using as a metaphor as my resurrection, I'm going
to use all of what I've been through that crucified
me as a part of my coming out, as a
part of my growth, as a part of my development,
as a part of my power. Is my superpower. It
makes me what conduct because of the trauma, not in
(27:31):
spite of it, not in spite of it. So whoever's listening,
if they are HIV positive, or they're struggling with their truth,
or their family has rejected them, you can turn that
(27:53):
into your superpower. You can use it, so rather than
avoid it are move a wife from it, it might
be your superpower. For Bishop Allen, redefining safe spaces is
(28:15):
crucial to the healing of the individual, and although these
safe spaces are communal, he reminds us that the most
important space is the one within ourselves, that we are
great and enough and powerful exactly as we are. Throughout
the season, we've seen how complicated and nonlinear healing can be,
especially when tapping into those unseen facets of identity. Stepping
(28:36):
out into the world as simply us with all of
our contradictory identities, regardless of how messy, complicated, or imperfect
they are, can be terrifying. But, as Bishop Allen defines it,
tapping into those different portions of ourselves this bigness helps
us see that we are so much more than one
thing or one group, and on the road to healing.
Believing that we do belong, regardless of our preferences, status,
(28:59):
or background, is the ultimate key to self love and redemption.
This has been in the deep stories that shape us,
and what I want each of you to know that
has been with us this entire season is that your
story no matter how big or small, matters, Because you matter.
Find this episode and others on the I Heart Radio app,
(29:22):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Don't forget
to share, rate, and review if you enjoyed this conversation.
The show is produced by Ivan Chian and mastered by
James Foster. Our show researcher is join A Raggio and
our writer is Evette Lopez. A special shout out to
our guest Bishop O c Allen. I'm your host, Zack Stafford.
Have you ever wanted a safe space where you can
just exist, where for a moment in time, you can
be you, with all the intricacies and parts of you
that people don't always understand. Welcome to in the deep
stories that shape us. I'm your host, Zach Stafford, and
each episode we create a space to be you, all
of you and all your messy and complicated glory. Every
(00:25):
story shares what it means to be a black and
Latin X man living with different hardships, whether it's a
struggle of identity, discrimination or health, and how they've managed
to push forward despite the circumstance. We hope to get closer,
even it's just a little to a road of healing
and understanding. Welcome back to the final episode of the season,
(00:51):
and what a season it has been. Over the last
few weeks, we've spoken about identity, community, trust, and healing,
and in this closing episode we try to bring it
all together what it means to be authentically us in
all our complicated glory. We've heard stories of hardship, forgiveness
and redemption ultimately ending in a place filled with acceptance
and self love. And what better guests to help us
(01:12):
bring this season to a close than Bishop O. C.
Allen the Third, a religious trailblazer, human rights activists, and
founder of the Vision Church of Atlanta, whose journey as
a gay black man was defined by a number of places,
all juxtaposed in their definition of what a man looks like.
Bishop Allen's story largely begins at Atlanta, particularly at Morehouse College.
I was curious to hear about his first interactions here,
(01:35):
the college where he became the quintessential more House man,
a symbol of ultimate black masculinity, and a place filled
with contradictions of what he was meant to represent versus
who he truly was inside. I was born and raised
in Los Angeles, California, lived in New York, uh, lived
(01:56):
in Baltimore, and came to Atlanta. And I was totally
blown away because I grew up hearing about how Atlanta
was the Black Mecca, and you know, all of the
rhetoric that people, particularly in the nineties, we're using to
(02:19):
talk about Atlanta. It was exactly what they said. Coming
from the West Coast, I grew up in a profoundly
diverse environment and coming to Atlanta that, uh, it's diverse,
but I think it's sort of sectioned out and if
you will, in various communities, like a lot of other places.
(02:40):
But it just became very start that there was a
very strong Black presence and very deliberate Black culture and
legacy and history in Atlanta. And I thought that was
just astounding. Now I came to Atlanta, um broke confused
about a lot of different things, my own mental emotional
(03:01):
state as relates to my life and my sexuality and
and my culture and just all of that to some
very basic things. You know, I was trying to get
my financial aid together. You know, they lost all of
my information, you know, all of the just a lot
of chaos and conflict and questions that I had. You
know now that I look back in on hindsight as
(03:21):
always twenty or fifty fifty, and uh, I really thank
God and thank the universe for all of it. But
at the time I was just you know, it was
a lot. And I stayed with a family that was
a friend of my family and out in Marietta, and
I was in their basements, sleeping on the couch, and
(03:42):
I had a little black Nissan and um got to
campus and then was blown away on a whole another level,
and you know, that I was at this all black
male school that has such a powerful legacy, and the
moment you step on campus, you feel it, you understand
it in ways that are hard to articulate. UM. I
(04:06):
had gone to Morgan State University, which was an HBCU,
but you know, morehouse UM has a particular heritage and
tradition of nurturing young black men. Then, of course, underneath
the cover is this black gay culture space reality that
(04:31):
was just profound, and I hadn't reconciled and resolved everything
in my own life, and so it just brought all
the questions and all of the things to the surface.
Creating spaces that were reflective of his own identity, especially
within his community, was important for Bishop Allen, but he
(04:53):
would find out that these spaces were not created equal
and challenge the status quo, especially when it came to
issue use of masculinity. I was there when the young
brother was beaten in the shower with the bat. I
was there. As a matter of fact, Not only was
(05:14):
I there, but I was a part of a delegation
of young black gay men who created a space too
revolt and protest the administration about the homophobic climate and
making sure that there were um official statements by the campus.
(05:34):
I was a part of all of that. You know,
looking back at it, I think it's multilayer because I
think on one end there is the complications of moving
into a space that has the homophobia and the challenges.
But I would also say, at that age and that stage,
most black men are men in general, are still trying
(05:55):
to figure out life, and so it's easy to focus
on the homophile be which I think is important. Um,
it's also important to look at all the complexities of
just what's going on with you socially, sexually, mentally, emotionally
as you're trying to be come, what you think a
(06:16):
man is and what that means for you. And I
think Morehouse has a legacy of at least uh trying
to provide a space for people to figure that out,
men to figure that out. Yeah, you know that makes
me want to talk to you about the idea of
safe spaces. You know, we hear that word a lot,
(06:38):
especially with religious spaces, especially as churches are seen a
safe spaces. And I think people have this idea that
a safe space means that it won't be uncomfortable. But
what I've learned is that safe spaces can sometimes be
really uncomfortable because they're there to mold you and shape you.
Do you relate to that, or what are your thoughts
around that idea of when you go to a place,
like should you be catered to or should you be pushed?
(06:59):
I pushed, you know, I I don't know where I
sit completely on a lot of things that relates to
the term space. When we first started the ministry in particular,
we use a lot of the terms, you know, safe space,
safe space, space, space, And then I transition and said, well,
I don't know if any space is really safe any space,
like how safe is a space for anyone? Any space?
(07:22):
And is that the language that we're really looking for.
I think what we want is a bold space where
people figure out how to become their best selves, how
to tap into their potential and their purpose, bold enough
to push me. And I think that is the challenge
(07:42):
that I would like to call myself an honorary millennial,
honorary Generation zer um. But I think that's the problem
with Generation zers and millennials is they're looking for safety
and comfort, and that's not what makes us. We're not
a strong people. You're not a strong person. You're not
a strong woman, you're not a strong man, are a
(08:03):
strong human being because your space is without the tension.
If you look at any successful, profound person in history,
it is because they were thrown into the the gap
where the tension exists. And I think that cannot be
(08:24):
omitted from the process if we're going to be all
that we're supposed to be. Bishop Allen realizes that the
safe spaces don't represent him, all of him in full form.
There was certainly a need, especially for black men, straight men,
bisexual men, gay men, to be accepted exactly as they came,
much like he had done it morehouse, disrupting the status quo,
(08:45):
he decides to challenge one of the biggest institutions, the church.
He creates the Vision Church, a place where people from
all backgrounds and walks of life can freely preach and belong.
But bringing his vision to life would be a long
and trecious road of self discovery. It was powerful. Yet
I will say this, We all have a destiny. And
(09:08):
what do I mean by that? There is something I
saw of ourselves not only pulling us to it, but
um shaping the steps, you know, molding the staircase putting
the staircase in front of us. And so while I
was blown away by Atlanta, what I've come to understand
(09:29):
is that all of it was designed. The thing that
was consistent through all of it was I'm supposed to
be here. This is a part of my journey. I
didn't know where it was taking me. I didn't know
how I would get there. I didn't know all the particulars.
I certainly had an enormous amount of challenges in the process.
But I think even through my pursuit for equality with
(09:50):
so many other brothers on campus, um it was a
part of my molding. It was a part of my development,
was a part of my growth, and it was frightening.
I didn't fully understand how I would get to this
picture that I had in my head. I think I
(10:11):
was raised to believe I was a change agent. But
you know, when you're broke, and I say broke to
also include broken, when you're sleeping on the couch, all
you have is closed in your car and you're trying
(10:33):
to figure life out. When I first got to Moorhouse,
you wonder, how will I manifest this thing that I see?
And so I think most certainly it moved from fright
two almost this acceptance that you know, maybe I'm not
(10:56):
going to be a change agent to maybe I'm going
to be just a change a gent to myself, you know.
And it's fascinating to see just the road and the journey.
I would tell anybody you know, the staircase is long,
but it has a destination. And you must continue to walk.
(11:18):
Tired walk and if you cannot walk, crawl up the
damn stairs. Do whatever you have to do. You'll get there.
I promise you. That's part of my mantra. If you
will like it's the story of my life in spite
of all of the challenges as a black gay man
and that, and then as a leader and and and
(11:38):
as someone who believes he is called to help people
see who they are. You will get there with this
idea mind being the change agent to himself. First, Bishop
Allen had begun to crack the code, but finding the
value and meaning of individuality, especially in a place that
(11:58):
was so devoted to the better of an entire group
of people, force Bishop Allen to dig deeper. With his
role well defined as a leader, he had to continue
scaling his message by helping his community see their personal
internal beauty and greatness. I think that I'm going to
use some symbolic language. The right people are people who
(12:23):
serve as a net and an umbrella, you know, to
cover you. They got you. That net is to catch
you and to hold you. But it's all for the
purpose of helping you see more of who you can be.
Sometimes that happens through rejection, and it is easy. I
(12:46):
think the greatest deception is that rejection has no direction
mm hmm, and that we are sulk now I'm you're ready, okay?
That Sometimes the great deception for us is that a
lot of our rejection turns us into attention seekers and
affirmation seekers and acceptance seekers rather than using that rejection
(13:13):
or that tension, are those challenges, are those problematic people
to turn us inward? Because ultimately I believe you are
the AHA, you are the answer, you are the person,
you are the one, You are it. You are great,
you are phenomenal, you are brilliance. You're not brilliant, you
(13:33):
are brilliant. And it takes all of everyone to birth that,
to make that, to develop that, to manifest that in us.
But the challenges with rejection and trauma, it can force
us outward because we're rejected. We make acceptance a fetish.
(13:59):
We spend our entire lives trying to seek and get
acceptance rather than seeing that all of it was designed hopefully,
if it was designed to help us accept ourselves. And
and that's tough, and it's the truth is. It is
the lesson of life. It is the most difficult thing
(14:21):
to turn people inward to see who they are and
see their possibilities. But it takes the umbrellas, it takes
the nets, it takes the tension in between. In Atlanta,
a black mecca that is constantly intertwined with a complicated
mix of values, finding acceptance isn't always easy, and as
(14:41):
he knows, breaking out of this need for affirmation and
learning to love ourselves first isn't something we are used to.
So when it comes to matters of healing, especially in
regards to mental health, spiritual health, or physical health, creating
the spaces that allow people to heal the many parts
of themselves can be daunting. And as much as Bishop
Allan places and emphasis on redefining future spaces for ourselves
(15:02):
and for others, he also realizes that there are outside
forces at work. In particular, painful, oppressive parts of our
history that we collectively must address in order to move forward.
But how do we move past these deep wounds that
have collectively hurt community so profoundly, much like HIV, poverty
and racism, And how do these communities heal from their
(15:23):
history so that their futures are much brighter. It's multi layered.
And the thing that we don't talk about, you know,
HIV is much like COVID nineteen HIV, it raises up
all the disparities that influence it. You know, HIV is
(15:45):
a victim of homophobia, It's a victim of tortured religion.
It is the victim of poverty, it is the victim
of low, selfless same it is the victim of so much,
you know. And there are so many factors that play
(16:06):
a role in what causes us to be vulnerable. And
we cannot discount history. I don't know why. It's so,
We're just we have been trained to avoid history. We
have been taught to not put everything in its context.
(16:28):
Vulnerable populations have a history that was vulnerable. It makes
sense that the lives of black people are Let's talk
about the most vulnerable population. Young black gay men are
at risk because you live in the United States of amnesia.
(16:50):
And I know we want to move on, and if
we don't want to talk, I get it. We we
have been culturated in the same environment, in the same structure,
in the same system that has its roots and white supremacy.
That is the legacy, that is the culture, that is
the room, that is the space, that is that is
(17:11):
everything that is a determining factor on risk. And we
you know, as long as I live, I will not
not raise that because when we talk about every other disparity,
it could be economic disparity, it points in one direction
the history of this legacy of this country. We talk
about health disparity. But while this is what KNDA, what
(17:37):
Kanda steal sits in Georgia, and what KNDA is not
larger than Georgia. How are you sit in a space
of understanding the reality of your life and still wanting
to build more out of that understanding that you are
(17:57):
a black gay man that deals with all of the
off or you are a immigrant that's dealing with all
this stuff, And how do you get to a place
where you're like, yeah, I live in this really messy
place where I am oppressed. I have so much weighing
down on me, but that's not an excuse to not
want more for my life. Yeah, I think it is first,
And I may answer this in a very simplistic way,
so I'm not suggesting that it is simple. Their layers
(18:20):
and structures and all kinds of stuff that are designed
in the world. But I think ultimately it is understanding
who you are. You are a sexual being, but you're
greater than the sexuality. The melanine in your skin is
a biological reality, it's not your spiritual reality. You are
(18:44):
a spirit that found itself in a body maybe to
contain you, because you're that great and you're that phenomenal,
and you're that brilliant and you just had to walk
into some flesh to kind of walk it out. And
when you understand that, and you understand your power, you
(19:06):
understand who you are, you can accomplish anything. I believe
you are divine, and that is how I think we
become change agents. You cannot change the world around you
(19:27):
until you first change your own perception about you. What
advice you give to people, especially Black ay Men, who
are so afraid of standing in their truth because they
think that's one thing will define them, And how do
you get them to understand that that one thing will
not define them. It just is the beginning of a
much bigger conversation that will let them be bigger than
that one thing. I've said this is a lot of places.
(19:50):
I believe this wholeheartedly. That you must live in your
truth so that you don't die and a lie. Live
in your truth. It's your truth, and it is truth.
The greatest thing you have is your truth, yours. It's
not somebody else's truth, and it's no one else's truth
to define or to explain or It's like this term
(20:12):
coming out coming out of what I'm inviting you in.
There's no such thing as come out, come out of what,
if anything. If I'm coming out, I'm coming out to
come into something even greater than what I came out of.
I'm not coming out. I invite everyone in. So we
have to first change the language. We have to change
(20:32):
our own language about how we see ourselves. And again,
this is why I think if you put stuff in
the context of not religion, but in the context of
definity or spirituality, that you see yourself as greater than
your parts. Your parts are important too, because the other
(20:53):
thing that I don't want to discount is the beauty
of your parts. And our sexuality is beautiful and it's
a gift, and it's to be express and is to
be embraced. It is excellent. Like we must wrap our
heads around that uniqueness that out of the population, you
have been given even greater gifting, you know, even greater
(21:15):
brilliance in your sexuality because your sexuality, particularly those of
us who are lgbt Q I UM we're talking to,
particularly young black gay man. Because of it, you have
a particular wisdom and a particular insight, and a particular understanding,
a particular thing that has been given to you. Know,
(21:39):
other culture has understood that, whether it was indigenous and
native cultures, they understood that two spirit communities cultures in
Africa and in Asia, they understood that that first of all,
you have a gifting, and the gifting is you and
what you understand that, then you can move out of
this space of trying to get the world to affirm
(22:01):
what is already affirmed. It's affirm because it's you have it.
You have it, it is you. And once you can
do that, then you move out of vulnerability into what
I call true identity. You are greater than what some
(22:22):
evangelists said. The Bible never actually did say, or any
sacred text said, and if it did say it, it
was still written by somebody. Right. It doesn't matter however
you slice it. You are greater than the voices, particularly
(22:44):
the negative voices that have been spoken over you. For
those of us that often feel overwhelmed by the greatness
of the world, those of us that look up at
the stars that think, wow, I'm nothing, I'm so tiny
in the bigger scheme of things. This message that Bishop
Alan Bree is so important that your contributions to yourself
to others, regardless of how big or small, do matter.
(23:06):
And for him, learning our place in the space, this bigness,
as he calls it, helps us heal internally. Yeah, I
mean you were created out of that bigness. You came
out of that. Now. You know, if I was talking
to black people as a whole, a group of black people,
I would even get more mystical and say, you came
(23:29):
out of that black sky. Is you, that's you, and
that is in you, and it was created for you
and we are both anned. So you are a spec
but you're also the thing that created the spec and
(23:49):
I think so many spiritual teachers have have tried to
say that in one way or another. I think we
miss it because it is particularly you know, unfortunate lee
the Christian tradition I came out of, Like, I appreciate
you saying that you know taught us. You know you
are dusted, you are nothing, and you are just sing
and you are at all. Yeah, I don't believe that.
(24:13):
Like that absolutely contradicts everything I understand about God. Like
I am wonderfully made, I am beautifully made, I am everything.
Even my flaws have beauty. It's like a rose. You'll
look at the beauty of the rose and miss the
thorns if you're not careful. They're both on the same thing.
(24:37):
But that's what makes it beautiful. And we have to
see that. If we can see that, and it takes
work to see that, that's why we need more zacks,
we need we need more safe spaces really, because that's
the point. The point is helping us see who we are. Well,
it's easy to focus on the other stuff, but how
(24:58):
about we and our attention to our bigness rather than
our smallness. Yeah, I love saying this. A stereotype is
just a chapter in a book someone hasn't fully read.
Jet you know, for people out there and people out
there who think who take things like you know, their
sexuality there j V. Sat As, all these slices of them,
and if they think that's it that defines them, then
(25:19):
they need to change that, as you're saying, and see
the bigness be like, that is a beautiful piece of me.
But I am all these other things, and within that,
I am dust and I'm big. Let me tell you
why I love the story of Jesus so much, um,
and I would rather follow the principles of Jesus than
the religion of Jesus. Right that people the religion they
impolosed on Jesus. But you know what I absolutely absolutely
(25:43):
think is a very interesting way of looking at the story,
particularly at the end where you know he's carrying this
cross through a city and it's just I mean, it's
really painful and traumatic time for him, and you can
you know, people make it so religious, but I think
just the humanistic part of some man carrying a piece
(26:05):
of huge wood that's bigger than him, it's like carrying
your sexuality. And you know they nailed him to it.
That's like your sexuality. You know, people will nail you
too publicly. You know, even people who have been exposed.
(26:26):
What is it? Are your HIV status or you know,
crucify you or ship maybe you crucify yourself. Most of
us we crucify ourselves. We put ourselves on the cross
of our trauma. But what I luck about the story,
this is a great tie into Easter right that if
(26:48):
I were to turn it into metaphor, that Jesus takes
that same experience and turns that that whole thing into
my dynamic resurrection, like turns the whole thing upside down,
like they complete. I'm gonna use my sexuality and so
(27:09):
of using as a metaphor as my resurrection, I'm going
to use all of what I've been through that crucified
me as a part of my coming out, as a
part of my growth, as a part of my development,
as a part of my power. Is my superpower. It
makes me what conduct because of the trauma, not in
(27:31):
spite of it, not in spite of it. So whoever's listening,
if they are HIV positive, or they're struggling with their truth,
or their family has rejected them, you can turn that
(27:53):
into your superpower. You can use it, so rather than
avoid it are move a wife from it, it might
be your superpower. For Bishop Allen, redefining safe spaces is
(28:15):
crucial to the healing of the individual, and although these
safe spaces are communal, he reminds us that the most
important space is the one within ourselves, that we are
great and enough and powerful exactly as we are. Throughout
the season, we've seen how complicated and nonlinear healing can be,
especially when tapping into those unseen facets of identity. Stepping
(28:36):
out into the world as simply us with all of
our contradictory identities, regardless of how messy, complicated, or imperfect
they are, can be terrifying. But, as Bishop Allen defines it,
tapping into those different portions of ourselves this bigness helps
us see that we are so much more than one
thing or one group, and on the road to healing.
Believing that we do belong, regardless of our preferences, status,
(28:59):
or background, is the ultimate key to self love and redemption.
This has been in the deep stories that shape us,
and what I want each of you to know that
has been with us this entire season is that your
story no matter how big or small, matters, Because you matter.
Find this episode and others on the I Heart Radio app,
(29:22):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Don't forget
to share, rate, and review if you enjoyed this conversation.
The show is produced by Ivan Chian and mastered by
James Foster. Our show researcher is join A Raggio and
our writer is Evette Lopez. A special shout out to
our guest Bishop O c Allen. I'm your host, Zack Stafford.
Host
Zach Stafford
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