May 7, 2025 • 55 mins
Today in the vet’s office, Dr. Josie Horchak welcomes her longtime friend and vet school classmate, Dr. Daniela Korec, a veterinary oncologist with a deep passion for helping pets and their people navigate the cancer journey. From the most common types of cancer in pets to the misconceptions around prevention, Daniela and Josie dive into it all — including the hot-button topic of using ivermectin and supplements as treatments. Dr. Korec breaks down how chemotherapy for pets differs from human treatment (hint: most pets tolerate it surprisingly well!) and even shares which dog breeds lose their hair and how it grows back differently. Plus, she gives her unfiltered take on what *not* to do as a pet owner in the oncology office — like trusting breeders over licensed vets. It’s an honest, informative, and eye-opening episode every pet parent should hear.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
You're listening to in the Vets Office with doctor Josie Horchak.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to in the Vets Office.
I am your host, doctor Josie, and today we are
going to talk about the big C word. Cancer. No
one loves talking about cancer, but the reality is that
it's more common than we think. And if you own
enough pets, you at some point will probably have a
pet that is diagnosed with cancer. So lucky for us,
I have brought one of the best in the biz
(00:38):
to tell us what we need to know as pet parents.
She is a board certified veterinary oncologist in Washington, d C.
Who just so happens to be one of my besties
and former VET school classmates. Welcome to in the Vets Office,
doctor Daniella Kortz.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks Josie.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Are we still going by your maiden name?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Oh my gosh. I love that you asked that, because
everyone's asked me that since I got married, which was
like a total of four weeks ago. Yeah. I think
hyphenating is the way I want to go because at
the end of the day, like those are my diplomas,
I'm very protective over my degrees. So probably like a
chords d Okay, I like something like that mouse I know,
I know.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
The kids will love it. It's perfect. No, I think it's
super I like that a lot. I mean, I know,
I feel like so many female doctors and veterinarians are like, No,
I worked for this, and now all of your clients
know you as that, Like, it would be pretty hard
to change as far in your career, so I know,
I got.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
To keep at least part of that for me. Plus,
it's kind of like how you're recognized with a lot
of your clients, so you're not ready to give that up.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I will keep referring to you and probably through most
of this podcast as Donda, which is your nickname. So
if you guys hear me, say Donda, I'm talking to
doctor Koritz ds. And we, like I said, we went
to Ohio State together in vet school and had so
many fun times together. I think we really got each
other through a lot of it. One of my favorite
(01:56):
memories of us together was we are in Gosh, that's
was probably like our second year of vet school. So
what was that like, twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, forever ago? Yeah,
or I know, and this was back when like the
gel manicure at home kits were like really popular, and
you were like you had the best nails, and I
was like, oh my gosh, like I would do anything
(02:17):
to have my nails look like yours. And one day
we're in radiology lab and we're all like, I mean,
this is like fifty people are in this lab and
you whip out your gel manicure kit and you start
doing my nails, giving me a full blown manicure in
the middle of radiology lab and our professor, doctor Drost
I think that's what it was, was up there lecturing
(02:38):
and he just looks at us. He like goes to
say something. He's just like whatever, like these two and
we just did a full blown manicure.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I cannot believe a that you bring it up. But
also how did they actually let us like we were
fully like nail salon. It smells bad in there. We're
like supposed to be looking at radio.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
The UV light of the gel of the gel machine.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
What I mean, not get kicked out of the lab
for that.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I know, you're like a little more square, a little
more oval.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I'm like, maybe squoil, We'll think about this broken book.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, that was me that is like us to a D.
So we did end up being successful minus R.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I know, and I'm so excited to be here and
like extraordinarily proud of you also, but it's so fun
to be here, to be a Nash and to talk
about like the fun good times and to share some
of my stuff from my work with everybody. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well we in this episode, we always start with a
case of the week. And so I was thinking, you
have been through an internship, a residency, you're now an oncologist,
and I am quite frankly, I'm running out of cases.
So do you have any funny stories from your time
in practice that the audience might want to hear?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Man, So this is actually really funny. But I will
just preface this by saying, it's my first year as
a resident, okay, and so everything's pretty new you and
you work with students. I mean, you remember when we
were students, you had your residence and they teach you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It's just like Grey's Anatomy, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Same Scrubs. Yeah, remember the Seal Blue. Yeah. So I
get a case, and you typically get a chance to
read about your case before you do it. So you've
got your records from the referring vet and I'm reading
and I'm supposed to see a cat with what it
literally says is a ten centimeter abdominal mass or tumor
on the abdomen.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That's huge.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
A cat is like this long, and tenants centimeters.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Is like half the cat's like half the cat.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Okay. So I'm like, oh my god, this is going
to be disgusting and awful and I'm going to have
to give these people horrible news about this poor cat.
This is not going to go well. So the way
we did it is the student had to do their
exam first and then report back to the resident, and
then the resident does their exam. So my student comes
to me and she says, you know, cat has dental disease,
(04:58):
and she's naming all these things that she's finding on
this cat. And I'm like, okay, waiting for the there
should be a huge tumor that you're reporting to me,
and she doesn't, and I'm like, I'm not going well
for this student. And you are getting an f you
are literally missing half the cat. Yeah. So I'm like, okay,
let's go look together. Let's go do a real exam.
(05:20):
So I'm examining this cat, and you know you're palpating
the abdomen. You're doing all your things, and I'm like, well,
now I'm a little confused because I don't feel this tumor.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So that they had said there was a tumor inside
the abdomen.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Either on or in either way, you should be able
to feel this ten centimeter mass.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I mean, we're yeah, and that for the listeners out there,
when we're doing our physical exam, like a lot of
times you'll see us pressing on your pet's belly and
we're feeling for like any organs that are enlarged, or
any abnormalities, and a lot of well, I wouldn't say
a lot of times, but it's not uncommon for us
to palpate something like ooh, this is really big and unusual.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yep. So that's what I'm expecting for this poor cat.
So I don't find it, and now I'm confused. Is
this the right pet? Some people have multi pet households.
It's not unheard of to bring the wrong cat to
the vet. So I go into the room as a
sweet old man, and I put the cat on the
table and I'm like, you're here for a big mess.
You felt something right, and he's like, yeah, it's huge.
(06:16):
I'm like, oh, and it's this kitty cat. He's like, yes,
it's her. I said, okay, and then he says, you
know sometimes it drags on the floor when she walks.
And I'm like, really, I put the cat on the floor,
who's a little overweight? Cats are? And then it clicks
(06:36):
it is this cat's poopa, her poopa's sweet little belly.
You were telling me this cat came to the oncologist
for poupa, for her foopa. So now we're fat shaming
this poor girl. She's seeing an oncologist for it. No,
(06:57):
when I tell you, first of all, I'm relieved all this,
sweet man, I don't have to tell anything that. I'm like, oh,
so that's just her.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Those are just her lady part. You know, she's just
a little chubby, she's in menopause.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Or certain little she's all right, you should drag it a.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Little bit of her chunk.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
My god, mind you. So I have to write up
a case. You have to give people take home discharges.
You do this, yeah, to do so, I have to
document what happened. And so my student gets to start
this document and we use templates for our documents and
she's so sweet. I always say, use the template. Use
the template. She comes back, she goes doctor Corett, there's
(07:35):
no template for fu PA.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I was like, no, no, there's not.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Oh, there would not be.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I'm dying that giving people good news in my setting
is really rare, right, So telling someone there's not a
tumor there, Yeah, it's not a tumor is truly like
a treat.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And for it to just be like normal anatomy even
bigger treat.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
You've never been so excited to talk about a fupa
in your life.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Never in my life, nor has this happened since which
now I'm like, okay, I mean I guess it could
feel like a humor.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, it is so funny. Like I guess if people
don't have a ton of cats, they could be like,
why is there this fat sack and my cat's abdomen?
But it's really normal for fat cats.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Any listeners who don't have a cat, it's pretty impressive
how much chub they can carry in that area. Sometimes
that's all the area, and it's just.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Like swaying in the wind, sway in the wind.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Try giving one of those cats a bath and then
you can really yes, appreciate with a lot of a
lot of muffin tops. It's several muffins, usually on top
of each other.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That is really funny. That's like in GP. I've told
the story, but we a lot of times will get
men that bring in dogs, mainly men, dogs with bumps
on their belly, and I'm like, sir, this is a nipple,
so I love it.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I said that. I actually was gonna say things that
people mistake for tumors. Nipples, yes, and also love handles
ah yes, on the back.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
A lot of times I'm like, oh, look at this
bomb and I'm like, oh, that's a love man.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I feel like this.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I say, see how there's two yeah, perfectly symmetrical on
either side. I do. I have the same thing as well, exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Okay, great, well that's amazing, and now we all know
fupas are not in fact cancerous. We're going to take
a quick break and then we're going to come right back.
We're going to dive into all things cancer with doctor
kretz d s aka Donda. Okay, so, Donda, how out
(09:44):
of all the specialties did you decide to be a
veterinary oncologist.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I think some people might think it's kind of like
self deprecating and really sad and depressing, but I think
what led me to it, and you met him, my
sweet sunny man. I had a Golden Retriever. Everyone who
knows knows that, despite what I do for a living,
I'm a sucker for those dogs. And he had cancer
and it's not actually uncommon for Golden retrievers to have
(10:09):
more than one cancer, and my dude, Sonny ended up
with three by the time he passed away. But it
was really, I think a turning point for me to
kind of decide into a specialty, and one that really
involves bonding with clients on a really deep level through
both a really really good and exciting but also a
(10:31):
lot of grief. And you bond with people in a
way that you know is not true for every specialty,
and it's really a deep connection that you develop with
the clients. And it really drove me to kind of,
you know, go that direction. And it's been true, honestly
every day, just the relationships that I develop with my
(10:53):
clients and of course the dogs, Like that's an endorphin
rush every time a Golden Retriever comes in, but it's
really the relationships their owners.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I feel like it's so interesting and maybe people don't
know this, but veterinarians, just like human doctors, can specialize,
so we have I guess I'll start with I'm a
general practitioner. I went to VET school for four years
and then I came out and started working in like
your average everyday GP. There are others who specialize like
Daniella did, and they go on to do an internship,
(11:22):
three years of residency, sometimes even more schooling, and they
can be surgeons, they can be cardiologists, they can be ophthalmologists, oncologists,
and of those specialties, I feel like oncology, my gosh.
I'm sure people think, wow, that must be so tough
in human medicine. I'm sure too, But to me, I
think that those relationships must be so rewarding.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
They are. And you know how often my clients will
go like They'll be seriously like mid crying. They're like,
I don't know how you do this for a living.
I'm like, sometimes I cry. I think it's really important
to be a human not hold back if you need to.
You know, if you're treating a dog for a year
and a half for two years, and it's time. I've cried,
(12:05):
for sure. But the good absolutely outweighs the sad and
the bad. And one thing that I think is really
important to point out is that some of these owners,
they really they get like this new lease on life
with their pet when they know that the time, even
though we all know they're mortal, when they realize that
that time is truly limited. It is what I tell
my clients, I say, make everyday Disney World, right, and
(12:28):
they do. They say, you know what, doctor Kurtz, we
had amazing six months, which isn't enough to me. It's
never enough. But they literally say, like, you told me
to treat them like it's Disney World every day. And
we did poppuccinos, gaining ten pounds, you know, like the
things that the dogs are not allowed to do their
whole life. Yeah, they get to do when they're diagnosed
(12:49):
with cancer. Final bucket list, Oh my gosh, special beach
trips and you know again McDonald's, I'm telling you some
of these guys coming. I'm like, so we're in a
remission and then you know, he's getting like two pounds
every week. Ll it's like pump the brakes a little
spoil but like I need him to walk.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Let's like modify the bucket list a little bit.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
But that's what people do, so it's a really rewarding
chunk of time that they get.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, that's true. I guess like that was. No matter
how long it is, at least they're getting that time
to cherish with their animals and really make the most
of it. Yeah, So what would you say? I mean,
I think there's so many owners out there. I think, gosh,
I don't know about people, but even myself I think about,
oh my gosh, do I have cancer. I think we
(13:34):
just like really think about it and really psych ourselves out.
And I know my clients are always like, I'm worried
about my dog having cancer and my cat having cancer.
What are some things that people can do to sort
of ensure that they're being proactive with their pets or
screen their pets for cancer. I know there's like a
lot of different opinions on that.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, I think the most important thing for a pet
owner is to be your pets biggest and most important advocate.
So if you think about even for yourself, you know,
if something's wrong, like you're gonna advocate for yourself hopefully
same thing with the pets. You know, at home screening
is actually very doable, whether it's just feeling your pet
(14:14):
for a new lump or bomp or you know, I
don't know that people realize, but dogs have lymph nodes
here just like people do, and so feeling for those
things at home is something you can do. Is a
part of your routine every couple of weeks. I'm not
saying do a rectal exam at home, like I don't
recommend that, Yeah, leave that up to doctor Josie, but
your service ways that you can and even something like
(14:37):
an oral tumor, right if your dogs panting, take a
peek in there. Right, So these are things that you
can do to be proactive at home so that you
don't miss something that really could have made a difference
early on common misconception. Normal blood work. Yeah, you know,
we've talked about this before. Normal blood work often translates
(14:57):
to people like almost as a cancer screen and that's
not always the case, majority of the time, not the case,
almost never the case.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Right, Yeah, I will say, like as a GP screening,
blood work is really important. It helps me understand how
are their organs functioning, how are their cell counts, So
it can really tell me a lot about their overall health.
But ninety nine percent of the time, if they do
have some sort of cancer, that's not usually picked up
on lab work. So just like you said, doing those
(15:26):
looking for lumps and bums, I think like major behavioral
changes or weight loss, that's something where it's like, ooh,
this is not normal and worth investigating.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Yeah, and I mean I did not coin this phrase,
but age is not a disease. So a lot of
the times a ped owner will say, well, I just
thought it was just slowing down. Slowing down over many
years is normal. We all have aches and pains. Slowing
down in a couple weeks or a couple months that
should be something that should ring some sort of alarm.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, maybe we should get this looked at. I also
think too, it's so important. I talk about this a
lot on my social media and on the podcast. If
you do find a lumper a bump, knowing that you know,
I think it can be our tendency like that's probably
just a fatty thing, like we'll just or it's a sis,
it's no big deal, Like we'll just watch it. Like
I think it is so important to aspirate it, and
that's something that we can do as your GP. It's
(16:19):
so easy for us to do. We just tick a
tiny little needle in they can be Most dogs are
wide awake. It doesn't really bother them. They don't need
to be sedated. It's minimally invasive, not super expensive, and
so worth doing because it can really help us get
an idea of like is this bad, do we need
to look into this further? Or now we probably don't
need to worry.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
About it exactly. And this is it's kind of reminds
me of when you get your nails done and you're
afraid to say you didn't like them. Yeah, if you're
not comfortable saying it's just nothing without sampling it like
just advocate for your nails, advocate for your.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Pet, and we're back to manicures.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Something about it, because sampling should be part of like
this standard care. Totally.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I sound like such a nerd. I always say why
wait aspiry, which I know is so nerdy, but I
live by that. Why wait aspiry? It's so easy to do, easy,
and it can save your pets life. Yeah, So so
there are a couple of different new tests out there
that sort of market themselves as cancer screening and pets.
(17:22):
I know there's like some urine tests and blood tests.
What do you think about those?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I love seeing how much technology is helping veterinary medicine
and just watching, you know, the new developments. It's just
the same as in human medicine. You got to take
it with a grain of salt and some caution because
sometimes we get these results right, these screening tests for pets,
(17:48):
you know, certain dog breeds, or you know, someone gets
a Golden Retriever and they think they're going to get
ahead of it. These tests have value, and I think
there's a lot more studying that we need to do
and more testing to figure out where they're places. But
it can be a little bit misleading or misguiding to
have a test that tells you you have some percentage
likelihood that your pet is going to get cancer or
(18:11):
is carrying some sort of trait or gene because we
don't really understand the utility in a practical sense. What
do you do with that test result?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I see, so it's like, okay, we have this golden retriever,
probably a golden retriever is going to come back with
a very high likelihood of having some sort of genetic
predisposition to getting cancer. So we get the information that
we probably already know, and then it's like, what do
we do with this as owners as GPS, what do
we do? I don't know, Like full body MRI every
(18:41):
six months, which again isn't really a realistical.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Sense, is not realistic. I mean, in the human world,
you're not going to get an MRI every six months
for if nothing else than the radiation exposure. But it's
something that is I believe in the future going to
have a place, and a lot of really smart people
are working on these tests. But in a practical sense,
I can honestly tell you I do not recommend them
(19:06):
as of right now, and I don't use them.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That's fair. Yeah, I don't know that I would change
anything that we do. How interesting, and not to mention,
MRIs are really expensive and your pet has to go
under full anesthesia for them. Honestly, those tests that gives
me anxiety. I'm kind of I would just be like
staring at my pets all day.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, you would, And I think that that's probably where
I would draw the line. If your relationship with your
pets starts to change because of a test that you
maybe never needed to do, you know, again being practical,
and you actually just said it, how is this going
to change.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What I do?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Right? That should be the reason that we do tests,
willy nilly. Just doing tests to have a test result
can actually sometimes I think, cause more harm than good.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, send you down a rabbit hole that maybe you
didn't need to go down, I mean, prone to that
hypochondriac right here. So okay, what are some of the
most common cancers you see in dogs?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So I would say, by far and wide, you know,
kind of our bread and butter is gonna be canine lymphoma, okay,
which is a disease that affects the lymph nodes. These
lymph centers are what we call multi centric lymphoma. The
telltale sign is usually actually not a pet being sick.
It's these big lumps or tumors that people perceive.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
They're like golf balls.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
They can be huge. So that's really really common, highly treatable,
and can be very rewarding. When I talk about my
long term relationships with my patients, it's often lymphoma patients.
They're amazing they come in for chemo, and I see
them every week sometimes for a long time, so very
rewarding disease most of the time to treat. The second
(20:52):
one that's probably huge is going to be your mass
cell tumor. Skin tumors that can be really pesky, and honestly,
general practitioners do a beautiful job referring and also treating
them themselves, depending on you know, the complex kind of
nature of the situation or the case.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
But yeah, that's really interesting that you bring that up,
because I see a lot of skin tumors. Like, if
someone has asked me, what's the most common cancer, you
see mine, maybe mass cell tumors probably far and away.
And anyone listening that's had multiple dogs probably has had
a dog or has heard of mass cell tumor. It's
the most common skin cancer and a dog. And it's
interesting in that in human medicine it's a little bit different,
(21:30):
but in veterinary medicine, we can, as GPS, treat anything
until we feel comfortable with it, and then once we
hit that point, we're like, I'm not so comfortable, let
me send it to the specialist. And so it's very
common for GPS to say Okay, your dog has a
skin tumor. I'm going to do surgery on it, and
then it take what we call wide margins, get really
healthy tissue around it, so we know we've gotten that
(21:52):
whole tumor off. And then from there, if you know,
for whatever reason it comes back or a metastasized, we
usually send it off to the oncologist. One thing that
I think is interesting is some gps are doing chemo,
and again that kind of comes back to their comfort level,
and I think that that's a little controversial. I think
for me, i'd be interested to know what you think.
(22:13):
You're laughing. I think that if your pet has cancer
and it needs further treatment like chemotherapy, I would if
you have access to go to the oncologist. You're it's
worth the couple hundred dollars you might save. You won't
save going to the oncologists, but it's definitely worth the
money that you would save if you went to your GP.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yes, Josie, I do laugh because I really look chemotherapy.
Let's just review real quick what that is. It's designed
to be a poison. It's a poison that kills DNA
in its simplest form, right, it kills those cells, so
you don't really want to be messing with it. We
have special chambers where we pull up this chemo that
(22:55):
we administer. Each chemo has its own special set of
side effects. It's it's really something that I don't think
is made to be in the GP practice simply if
not for anything else other than just the things you
need for logistically right, And you know, I'll say I'm
the first one and be like, I don't know how
(23:15):
to do GP things. And you know, I think if
you feel comfortable giving chemo, maybe you shouldn't be unless
I don't know what the circumstances are.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's I think
it's becoming less and less common. I guess. I just
like want the listeners to know if you have the
option of going through a GP for chemo or an
oncologist all day long, go to your oncologist. Yeah, and
I want to We'll dive into chemo because I think
that's I get tons of questions about that and our pets.
So what are some of the common cancers that you
(23:50):
see in cats?
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Cats? And I have a cat, love of my life,
very fluffy, beautiful man The most common thing to see
in cats is going to be gastruintestinal disease with lymphoma.
So it's like same cancer category, but in dogs it's
here in the lymphnotes and in cats it's more commonly
in the GI track. So the big stuff to watch
(24:13):
for your cats is weight loss. It's not normal for
a cat to lose weight and vomiting diary, all that
gross stuff. That's the most common thing we see cats.
For cats are tricky. The cat listeners out there, they're
like good, good, good, good good, until they're like crashing
all of a stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yes, we've talked about this quite a bit. We actually
had doctor bean On who we went to school with,
and we talked about cats are so tough in that
they don't really A dog stubs its toe and it's like,
oh my god, help me take me to the hospital,
call the ambulance, and a cat is like one minute
away from death and he's like, I'm fine, I'm good.
(24:53):
Like cats are tough, so it can be hard to
tell when something's really wrong exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
And then sometimes it's you know, they tend to have
the very aggressive form of lymphoma. Like I mean, there's
two main kinds, but the really aggressive kind that affects cats,
it goes fast. So again it goes back to what
I was saying earlier, like, trust your gut, this isn't
normal for your pet. Get it investigated, even if they're
(25:17):
being you know, really stoic.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, it all comes back to advocating for your animals,
just like you said.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Okay, So your pet gets diagnosed with cancer and the
listener or owners goes to you as the oncologist, and
I'm assuming you present them with treatment options radiation, chimo,
and number one thing that I hear and I'm sure
that you hear, is well, what is my pet's quality
of life going to be? What are the side effects?
What do you say to them?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
This is one of my favorite things to educate owners
on because I actually tell them. I say, you know,
my job would really suck if I was making these beautiful,
innocent creatures sick all the time. And I'm really lucky
to say I'm not doing that. So in humans, you know,
chemotherapy is designed ideally to cure you, right, you know,
(26:06):
because if you're treating somebody, you want them to have
their full life. You want them to make it to
their kids, graduation or whatever. In dogs, the goal is different.
Most of the cancers that I treat are not going
to be curable, so we're really focused on quality of life.
Quantity is great, that's a secondary goal, but my primary
goal is quality, quality, equality, and so the dosages that
(26:29):
we use are a little bit different. I'm very quick
to reduce the dose of chemotherapy if it's making my
patient sick, and you really tailor it to the owner
and to the pet what everyone can tolerate. But most
of the time they're not getting sick. If they are,
it's usually mild. Hair loss is only seen in a
couple breeds. Which breeds are that are those doodles. Doodles
(26:55):
will lose their hair.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Like they go completely bald. Sometimes, my gosh, I've never
had a patient go bald from chemo. A bald doodle.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
I just have to tell you. The cutest story is
there's this beautiful dog. Her name's Callie, and she's a doodle.
She got chemo and she has a little two year
old boy at home that she lives with. And her
mom said that when Calli lost all her hair during chemo,
he would wake up every morning and say, you look
beautiful today. CALLI.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Oh, that's the cutest thing I ever heard.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I was like, And so every time she'd come to
see me and she was naked. They grow it back
a little bit. But I'm like, Kelly, you look beautiful today,
and they are naked naked like, they come in sweaters
and things like that.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
When their hair goes back, does it grow back different
colors or different texture like humans?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yes, Okay, they come back. The experience I've had is
that the hooodly part goes away, okay, and they start
to be more like goldens, like wavy, yeah, and then
goldens will lose their feathers. So for those who know
what a golden treeok is like, they're beautiful and feathered.
The feathers go away often, so it's like this unique
thing that happens to that breed.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
But I do find that most of them like eat fine,
drink fine. They're bouncing around sometimes they even feel better
on it, like they tend to do very very well.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
They do. And I have owners who are like, I
didn't realize how sick he was until we did the chemo.
He's like a puppy again. And then I'm like, yeah,
chemo for everyone.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And you get chemo. And another thing that's really interesting
is a lot of the owners are surprised to find
out that the chemo therapy is almost it is a
lot of times the same drugs that we use in humans.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yep, absolutely, so the majority of it. There's definitely some
veterinary specific chemo drugs, but I use chemo that people
get for either the same disease or even a different disease.
And there's just a lot of overlap because the studies
overlapped too. You know, the cancers don't always behave exactly
the same way, but they're very similar. And you know,
(28:55):
I have clients who tell me, oh my gosh, I
got that drug when I was back in cancer, And
people share with me very often, and I feel very
humbled that people feel comfortable enough to share with me
about their own cancer journeys. And they often tell me,
you know, I don't want that drug from my dog,
I was so sick when I got that, or oh
(29:15):
you know, I remember this, so I mean literally like
the chop protocol for limfima, and it has been used
in people. They're like, oh my gosh, I know someone
who had that, or my neighbor. Yeah, but dogs and
cats handle Cats are aliens. They handle chemo phenomenally.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, they're like, this is great.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
What neutral film? They're like, what white blood cells? And
who needs them? Yeah, they don't care for losers.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
That's really something that you said though, that I think
is really important.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That always.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Is interesting to me and to owners is that there
is a lot of translational medicine here. So we have
a lot of the cancers that are in dogs, for example, osteosarcoma,
which my great Dane died from, is bone cancer. A
lot of children stuff from that as well, and so
a lot of like the studies and drugs that we
use in our pets is a lot of times experimental
(30:06):
in the sense of like we're trying to figure out
is it going to work for humans?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
So interesting.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It's amazing how many really really smart, much smarter than me,
people are working on trying to cure some day these
children of these really really aggressive, very painful tumors. And
there is a lot of translation, not just for the mutations,
but for the different drugs that can be you know,
utilized to try to block some of these cancer pathways,
(30:33):
and particularly the cancers that we know affect a really
vulnerable population of people, which are young kids and you know,
adolescents who end up use losing a limb over this.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
So while we've made a lot of steps forward, we
have so much more work to do. And if you
look at literature and you look at studies that look
at you know, human cancers, they have like thousands of
subjects dogs and cats. You know, you're like, oh my gosh,
this so you had forty dogs, Like this is really reliable. Yeah, yeah,
I could really do this one. So it's it's still
(31:06):
a long way from where we would like it to be,
and it's still a very devastating disease as you know. Yeah,
but yeah, it's I think we take it for granted
how much we can help people when we are treating
and studying canine and feline cancer.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
And that's something that I feel like a High State especially,
we like really they really preach with something called one health,
where it's like public health, human health, antal health. It's
so all deeply intertwined. Like even with the bird flu
that's breaking out right now, starts with birds can affect
our cattle, our cats at home are getting sick, humans
are getting sick. Like all of these things are so intertwined,
and so as health professionals. It's like, you know, I know,
(31:46):
people say we're animal doctors, but a lot of it
is so so deeply intertwined.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
I mean, I don't know about you guys during COVID,
but like, yeah, got emails, so can you come help vaccinate?
Oh yeah, you know, I mean you should probably cut
this out. But Peloton did not recognize us.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I know, you know what, I'm not cutting this out.
Peloton was like, oh, veterinarians, they're not health professionals. We're
not giving them a discount.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, I'm not going to forget that. I wish I could.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I know, well, I'm not getting sponsored by them.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Oh okay, okay. So you talked about chemotherapy. What about
what would you say, like, are some of the side
effects you see from radiation? And how do pets tolerate radiation?
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah? So side effects with radiation are It kind of
depends on what protocol you do. So you could do
a lot of radiation where like these guys are coming
in every day for a month, so that's pretty intensive
and those side effects are always going to be more
intense hair loss. This one definitely right, and then sometimes
the skin can get kind of like sun burnt or
(32:44):
burnt truly but can be very effective. Depends on the tumor. Yeah,
and we definitely do multimodal therapy where you actually can
do a combo first you do surgery, chemo radiation, which
sometimes when I talk to my dad about this, who's
a human on call, just I think it really blows
his mind. He's like, wait, you do this to animals.
(33:05):
He's like, people do this. I'm like, oh, yeah, Dad,
they do. And he's like for a dog. I'm like,
these are family.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, like family member.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
There are people who are like when do I start? Yeah,
And I'm like, I'm going to have to tell you
about the price of all of this. They're like, we
don't care. This is my child.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Speaking of price, let's say you have a Golden retriever
it's diagnosed with themphoma and you're going to go through
the chop chemo protocol. What would you what's like a
rough quote for that, just so listeners have an idea.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, it's so it's important to point out chop is
sixteen weeks, so sixteen treatments and if you finish it
and you pay as you go. But if you finish it,
I think you can range anywhere from seven K all
the way up to over maybe ten or even twelve
K for the whole thing. Okay, depends on which part
of the country are in or where you're practicing.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And that protocol specifically, it can give you years.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I can so with the kind of big lumps multi
centric lymphoma that I was describing, it really depends. I've
got dogs that have made it for two years, and
we get really excited about that. That's probably only around
twenty percent of the population with lymphoma. So the multi
centric lymphoma dogs may not make it to a year,
(34:22):
And to say years is definitely possible, but not as
common as we would like better.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
You know, it's important that we don't sugarcoat it, and
we have those prognoses, and maybe your pet is one
of the twenty percent, but also in reality, the likelihood
is that it probably isn't.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I think sugarcoating in my world is probably one of
the least desirable things you can do. And I tell
my clients, I say, if you want honesty, you're in
the right place with me in this office. Because I'm
not going to lie to you. It's not fair. I
think most people really appreciate that and are coming to
you for honest expectations.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah, how do you handle I know I gp a lot.
They either go to see you or they don't. How
do you handle, Hey, here are your treatment options, and
for whatever reason, people are like, I don't want to
go through with chemotherapy. It is very expensive. So how
do you handle like saying, Okay, we're not going to
do treatment, We're going to do palliative care. And how
do you handle that level of guilt? I feel like
(35:18):
a lot of owners feel.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
You're so right, And I think part of our jobs
as veterinarians is to make sure that we present options
free of judgment, because our only job as pet owners
is to prevent suffering. And so the way I talk
to my clients is Chemo's not for everybody. There are
multiple factors that go into deciding to do chemotherapy for
(35:42):
your beloved family member and pet, and finances should be
a part of the conversation. They have to be. It
is extremely expensive, especially if you don't have entrance for
your pet. Yeah, And ultimately I tell them, I said,
I'm not here to sell you chemo and you love
your pet. You wouldn't go to an ornary oncologists if
you didn't love your pet, right, Yeah, So leaving my
(36:04):
office and not doing chemos should not be a reason
to feel guilty because it's really not the right choice
for everyone. Palliative care with steroids can still get a
lot of patients good time and good quality again with
the correct expectations, and you know, just not allowing your
pet to suffer is doing your job.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yes, I think that is such a great way to
put it. I think that is you nailed it on
the head. I think what I try and tell owners
is it's worth going to the oncologists and getting all
of your information and then from there you can make
the decision that's best for you and your family and
your pet. And I just like love that you said,
(36:47):
we don't want you to leave feeling guilty. I think
maybe there's maybe there's always a little piece of that
because we're humans. But I you know, for example, at
my Luca that had osio startcoma, we didn't do anything
except palliative care. We got six amazing months, but you know,
I didn't think treatment would have been best for her,
and so I guess I just like want to if
you don't have ten thousand dollars to spend on the
(37:09):
chop protocol and that doesn't you know, fit your family's
needs or your pets needs, Like it's.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Okay, one hundred percent. And actually that is so important
because that's people forget. That is such a big part
of my job is actually just giving people the comfort
of knowing that that's okay to do, or even to
say there aren't any good options, and then I tell
them I'm really sorry, I don't know if this is helpful,
and you know how often they tell me that's actually
(37:35):
incredibly helpful. Yeah, to know that there wasn't anything else
I could do, right, like just getting that a little
bit of that piece.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Peace of mind. One thing that you also just said
that I think is really important and I usually hammer
this home on this podcast, but if you can get
pet insurance for your animal the second you adopt them,
the second they're puppies are kittens, man, it could change
your life, could change their life louder for the people
in the back pet insurance.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Pet insurance taking that part of the decision making out
of the conversation is incredibly helpful and people, I mean,
it is covered. This is not a pre existing condition.
If you get your pet insured and a year later
it gets cancer, this is not pre existing correct and.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Can make a huge difference financially. I don't know if
you guys can hear this. We don't need to pause that.
My dogs are going off the rails right now. Biggie's
like grunting on the ground. Saya, can you goalay on
your bed? Sister, you can do it? Go get down?
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Okay, where were we? I'm torn between encouraging her and.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Discouraging I like, Auntie Donda, can you stop needing it down?
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Saya? She's giving me the Sarah McLaughlin's song eyes.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
How do you We've I've done a whole she is Syah,
goalie on your bed, ther.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Arms of an angel over here right now?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah? Okay, Now she's going to me. When you have
clients that are nearing and I've done a whole episode
on youth and asia, so we don't have to go
too far into it. But when they're nearing that time,
how do you what are some of the things that
you point out when you're like, this is what I
monitor for quality of life. This is what helps me
know when it's time. What do you say to them?
Speaker 3 (39:17):
It's the hardest part of having a pet. And what
I tell people. First of all, I tell them, I say,
it's easier for me to talk to you about this,
but when I'm sitting in that chair someday with my
own dog, and I have sat in that chair, it's
just an impossible thing to wrap your mind around. So
what I talk to them about is, you know, as
(39:38):
easy and as simple as you know. Your dog doesn't
have a watch or a calendar. He's not worried about
not making it to Christmas. He lives for every moment
that he has. And how lucky is that. I try
to say, if you can just focus on the fact
that they don't know what cancer is, they don't know
what passing away is. They just live for you and
(39:59):
for the pet, and for the food or whatever. Each
dog has three or four things that make that dog them,
and when they don't do those things anymore, it's just
their way of saying, I'm not having a good time anymore.
I don't want to be here like this. And so
I do remind people it's not always that they stopped
eating or you know, they are not crying in pain,
(40:22):
so they're probably not in pain. I may not never
do that, so every dog's different. But really focusing on
better a week early than a day late. I don't
know if that's helpful, but that think it is what
I try to telp my clients about and oftentimes they
want to see it through to the end with me,
(40:44):
which I am a marshmallow. Like I do go into
a private room and cry afterwards, like me too. It's
really one of those things that it's an honor for
people to say that to me. But I'm always like, ooh,
I know, is gonna hurt.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Is an honor, and I really do look at it
as a privilege, but gosh, I'm crying in a closet
by myself. Afterwards.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
My nurses are like, are you okay. I'm like, I
just need a minute, Yes.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I'll be fine. What are some advancements in veterinary I
know we've talked about it a little bit in veterinary oncology.
You're like, yes, this is going to be great. Are
there anything good on the horizon coming up? As far
as science goes.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
We're really, i think cautiously excited about AI making its
way into veterinary medicine, and even since I came out
of residency, which is a little while ago but not
that long ago, we've started to use different companies that
are implementing AI into predicting, you know, whether it's responses
(41:47):
to chemotherapy or actually analyzing you know, the genomic profile
of a tumor, which in people is really really common.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
What would you say is a myth about cancer and
our pets?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
The biggest myth I think is about suffering from side
effects from chemo. But then the second, probably one of
the most I think commonly asked things in the room
is diet.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I hear this a lot.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
So what can I feed my dog to either make
the cancer go away? Or what can I feed my
dog to prevent cancer? And the short answer is, I
think we would all know about this diet if it existed,
right for sure. I am a believer, and I know
you had Val Parker on. I am a believer in
(42:42):
balanced nutrition for your pet, and that's going to have
huge benefits. But we do not have any evidence to
say that it prevents cancer from developing or that it
will make your pets cancer go away.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, I understand being in the position of like, Okay,
my pet is sick, I will do anything to make
them better, and like kind of looking for all the solutions,
but at that point we're kind of grasping for straws
because there is no scientific studies. And yes, maybe your
aunt sister's second cousin had six had a great outcome
(43:18):
and they were feeding raw food, but that doesn't mean
all dogs with cancer should eat raw food. In fact,
no pets should eat raw food. But that's for a
different day. I just, yeah, I struggle with that a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
I'm going to have to second that, and I think
sometimes it's no pun intended, a hard thing to swallow
to realize that there isn't really that much you can
do at home. From a diet standpoint, I'm so sorry,
but supplement standpoint, you know, I love reiki, but not
(43:48):
seeing it, you know, really it's and I practice evedence
space medicine, so I think, you know, you're getting a
veterinarian college's point of view. I think it's nice to
exist in parallel with alternative medicine, but when it comes
to diet, I haven't seen anything that's been like really
shown to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
What about with mushrooms. People love the mushroom stuf.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Hurt detailsoms, Yeah, they do love it. All the scientific
data behind those Actually there's a little bit of data
that says it doesn't work. But I do try to
make sure and recognize that this is a sensitive subject
and that it is also typically not hurting, and I
(44:32):
want to make sure that my clients have this space
to know that they tried something. What I usually say is, look,
I don't know what it does or doesn't do, because
that's not my line of work. I haven't seen the
hard evidence that I typically use to make my decisions clinically.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, I think that's fair. It's like, if you want
to give a mushroom supplement, it's probably not going to
hurt anything. It might not work, but maybe it'll make
us feel because I know, as humans like we want
to feel like we're doing something anything, and we love
these animals so much. So if that make check that
box for some people.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
Which checks that box for a lot of people, I.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Bet I will say, though, feeding raw food that can
be dangerous for your pets. I've had a patient die
from eating raw food, So that one I'm like, mm, hmm.
And if they're on chemo and they're immune suppressed anyways,
it can be really bad.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Let us exactly, thanks Josie for saying that. Let us
not forget that if they're getting chemo, they are going
to potentially be susceptible to getting sick anyway, even if
it's a little bit more susceptible. I do not recommend
raw food in that scenario or any scenario. It's not
my jam either.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, a lot of a lot of side effects from
that any amazing. I'm sure you have a lot, but
any success stories that stand out for you in your career, thank.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
You for saying that. I have a lot. Yeah, such
a great on college.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yees.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
No, I have so many stories, and you know, people
and pets that are so like ingre in my memory
and near and dear to my heart. But one that
really sticks out is one of the cutest things I've
ever seen is actually a dog that finished her chemo
and was able to witness her parents getting married, like
(46:17):
put the paw on the paw, No as a witness?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Like what is what is it? Is it not a Bible?
It's like a marriage certific.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I mean I think that a witness signs.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, and so you know, she signs her signature her paw.
That's the cutest thing I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
I like, I have a little goosebump because I think
it's so adorable. And again, I'm a marshmallow, so I
have a lot of things are adorable. But that is
one of those things that I always remember. But I
have countless stories, countless clients. It's I'm like getting all
gushy and annoying. It's just we said we were going
to cry on Mary, so not gushy to cry. But
I really like, there's so many good stories.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, I feel like that's such a you make lemonade
out of lemons. Yeah, with this, with your.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Career, you have to.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, you have to or you will be crying. Okay,
we are going to take a quick break. We're going
to dive into ponn order when we come right back.
All right, we are back, and on this week's pawn Order,
we are going to have doctor Daniella take it away
(47:23):
with three things that she would not do or doesn't
recommend as a veginary oncologist. Dondo take it away.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
One of the biggest things that I would like everyone
to know is that you should not go to your
oncologists and ask them to look in the ears or
look at the poop. You cannot imagine how many people
are like, check that tumor. But can you also while
I'm here, can you look at the ears? Actually literally
say I don't have a notoscope. I don't know how
(47:54):
to do that. Yeah, I love my GP friends and colleagues.
They're so good at that. Stick with your GP for poop,
our ears and all the things. They're super good at
the poop. Do not bring me a bag of poop
our poor owners are so conditioned to bringing a poop
sample because we're like, bring up fecal, bring up fetal.
It's like grain ingrained into them. So anytime they're going
to the vet, whether it's an oncologist, I think they just.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Are like, well, I'll bring a poop sample, and they're
still like.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Crown in this little neat bag. They're on my way
out of the room, like do you want this? I'm like, no,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
That in fact does not help with the cancer treatment.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
No, we don't detect any cancers in the poop, so
it's it's totally okay to keep that for your GPS.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And I would like to say, please keep bringing me
your poop because I usually do need a poop sample.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
So another one is essential oils, and I remectin.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
This is a hot topic on social media right now.
I remectin especially, it is a hot topic.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Once again, I gotta rewind to what I said. You know,
I practice even ince space medicine. Try not to bring
that up. Yeah, unless there's some revolutionary thing that happens,
you know, and I'm open to new studies. Yeah, as
of right now, I'm going to go with a note
and the essential oils. They smell nice. But we actually
used to have a pet that would come in and
he was covered in whatever flavor it was, but he
(49:14):
was like covered in it. I'm like, this is overwhelming.
A little everybody, a.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Little grease ball.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Yes, so greasy. That's cute.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
The owner was like, I'm gonna reb you in whales.
And so you're saying ibromectin people are giving it to
their pets to treat cancer. They're trying to Yeah, yeah,
it's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
We hear it.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Like you know, ever since COVID and now, people have
really kind of lashed onto ibmactin. We've been using it
in veterinary medicine for it ever and mainly as like
a dewarming anti parasitic situation, which we know there is
evidence that it absolutely works for that. And now it's
really being you know, people are using it or saying
that it works for cancer treatment, but there really isn't
any data behind that.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
No, And I mean, I guess you don't always have
to have data to you know, make things happen and
sell things if it sounds good and sounds very accessible, right,
but it's not the recommendation right now, and quite frankly
it's You're never gonna, as a client make me mad
with that, but I don't usually engage in that.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Okay. Last, but not least, do not come to your
veterinarian college's office and tell me what your breeder recommended.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Ooh, this is a hot take. I beg you, okay,
this is interesting, and I feel similarly to this in GP.
It's okay, I'll let you go first, and I'll go.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
I'll say, as I do own two purebred animals, so
this is something that is important to recognize. Breeders are
you know, they have their place and you know they
do a lot of good things, but you cannot imagine
how many people come to me and say, well, first
of all, my breeder says that she's never had this
in her line, and she wanted me to tell you
or he or she wanted me to tell you to
(50:54):
do this and this, it's really important. I think not
to do that. I think it away a little bit
from our expertise, just like I would not tell a
breeder how to breed. Yeah, I wouldn't know where to start.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that's really interesting. I didn't realize
that they're getting involved in cancer treatment. They definitely in
general practice. Every not every time, but a lot of
times they'll come with puppies or kittens and they'll have
a sheet that and the breeder says, don't give this vaccine,
don't give that vaccine. And I'm like, wait a second,
I'm the doctor, and I know that this vaccine works,
(51:28):
and like to not give it would be honestly negligent.
But then, you know, owners are really attached to their
breeder and they've chosen their breeder, and I've done a
lot of research and I'm not saying they don't do
a good job breeding because I think a lot of
them do. But I'm like, it's not great when they're
giving us medical advice and like how to do our.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
Job exactly, especially when it comes to cancer treatment. You know,
I think steering someone away from the treatment that actually
could help their pet. Yeah, I think those are probably
the most unfortunate cases.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yeah, exactly. It's like just knowing where your expertise lies.
Just like me and ears, God, just like you and ears.
No ears, no poop, no, and you won't.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Honestly, no eyes unless there's a tumor in there. I
have no idea. Please don't make me do it.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
There are interesting enough. I have diagnosed like quite a
few ocular eye tumors in my career. I feel like
people don't realize, but.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
Me, see those any body part can get cancer. This
is fact. So yes, I will look in there if
you can tell me that I'm looking for a tumor.
But if you want me to look at an ulcer,
I will be grossed out. Do you don't make me
stain that eye? Don't make me do it.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
That's so funny. Well, thank you for coming in today.
I feel like you are so passionate about this, and
it is I'm sure a really challenging career, but one
that is so necessary because it is so common and
we need more people like you that kind of help
us as pet owners get through these difficult situations with
our animals. And I'm sure people are listening today, probably
(52:58):
like if they've ever had You'm an oncollegists that are like, gosh,
I wish they were like you because you do such
a great job of it. So oh so thank you
for coming. If people want to find you, where do
they go about finding you?
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Well, I'm currently practicing in Northern Virginia, Okay, DC area,
DC area, and I'm actually super happy in that area.
I've got a family there and my two crazy pets.
But you can find me on Instagram and I'm actually
working on a new account.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
So that's right, you are. Can we talk about what
you're working on?
Speaker 3 (53:33):
This is like very very very new. So what I
would say is, I'm, with the help of my sister
in a really really near and dear friend, Kate, we
are going to try to do a e guide book
to help people who have pets that have been diagnosed
with cancer.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, it's like your pet has cancer, now what? So
I feel like that will be a really great resource
that owners don't have currently and we'll really enjoy having.
So I guess everyone stay tuned for that. As it
comes out, I'll give you more information and as always,
please be sure to rate, review, subscribe, give us five stars,
let us know what you think. You can always send
(54:12):
me any questions, any follow up questions you have for Daniella,
Doctor Daniella at doctor Josivett on Instagram and TikTok. I
just had a TikTok video go to three point five
million views this week. I know what Actually, I watch
all your sor it's a cat with an emotional support
bikini talk yeah, or the bro. Yeah, his name's Cheddar
(54:33):
and he brings his emotional support me everywhere with him.
So yeah, I've made it pretty big. But also respond
to you on social media and we will be back
next week. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to
you soon
You're listening to in the Vets Office with doctor Josie Horchak.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
Hi everyone, and welcome back to in the Vets Office.
I am your host, doctor Josie, and today we are
going to talk about the big C word. Cancer. No
one loves talking about cancer, but the reality is that
it's more common than we think. And if you own
enough pets, you at some point will probably have a
pet that is diagnosed with cancer. So lucky for us,
I have brought one of the best in the biz
(00:38):
to tell us what we need to know as pet parents.
She is a board certified veterinary oncologist in Washington, d C.
Who just so happens to be one of my besties
and former VET school classmates. Welcome to in the Vets Office,
doctor Daniella Kortz.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
Thanks Josie.
Speaker 2 (00:53):
Are we still going by your maiden name?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Oh my gosh. I love that you asked that, because
everyone's asked me that since I got married, which was
like a total of four weeks ago. Yeah. I think
hyphenating is the way I want to go because at
the end of the day, like those are my diplomas,
I'm very protective over my degrees. So probably like a
chords d Okay, I like something like that mouse I know,
I know.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
The kids will love it. It's perfect. No, I think it's
super I like that a lot. I mean, I know,
I feel like so many female doctors and veterinarians are like, No,
I worked for this, and now all of your clients
know you as that, Like, it would be pretty hard
to change as far in your career, so I know,
I got.
Speaker 3 (01:29):
To keep at least part of that for me. Plus,
it's kind of like how you're recognized with a lot
of your clients, so you're not ready to give that up.
Speaker 2 (01:35):
I will keep referring to you and probably through most
of this podcast as Donda, which is your nickname. So
if you guys hear me, say Donda, I'm talking to
doctor Koritz ds. And we, like I said, we went
to Ohio State together in vet school and had so
many fun times together. I think we really got each
other through a lot of it. One of my favorite
(01:56):
memories of us together was we are in Gosh, that's
was probably like our second year of vet school. So
what was that like, twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, forever ago? Yeah,
or I know, and this was back when like the
gel manicure at home kits were like really popular, and
you were like you had the best nails, and I
was like, oh my gosh, like I would do anything
(02:17):
to have my nails look like yours. And one day
we're in radiology lab and we're all like, I mean,
this is like fifty people are in this lab and
you whip out your gel manicure kit and you start
doing my nails, giving me a full blown manicure in
the middle of radiology lab and our professor, doctor Drost
I think that's what it was, was up there lecturing
(02:38):
and he just looks at us. He like goes to
say something. He's just like whatever, like these two and
we just did a full blown manicure.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
I cannot believe a that you bring it up. But
also how did they actually let us like we were
fully like nail salon. It smells bad in there. We're
like supposed to be looking at radio.
Speaker 2 (02:57):
The UV light of the gel of the gel machine.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
What I mean, not get kicked out of the lab
for that.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
I know, you're like a little more square, a little
more oval.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
I'm like, maybe squoil, We'll think about this broken book.
Speaker 2 (03:09):
Yes, that was me that is like us to a D.
So we did end up being successful minus R.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I know, and I'm so excited to be here and
like extraordinarily proud of you also, but it's so fun
to be here, to be a Nash and to talk
about like the fun good times and to share some
of my stuff from my work with everybody. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:32):
Well we in this episode, we always start with a
case of the week. And so I was thinking, you
have been through an internship, a residency, you're now an oncologist,
and I am quite frankly, I'm running out of cases.
So do you have any funny stories from your time
in practice that the audience might want to hear?
Speaker 3 (03:50):
Man, So this is actually really funny. But I will
just preface this by saying, it's my first year as
a resident, okay, and so everything's pretty new you and
you work with students. I mean, you remember when we
were students, you had your residence and they teach you.
Speaker 2 (04:05):
It's just like Grey's Anatomy, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (04:07):
Same Scrubs. Yeah, remember the Seal Blue. Yeah. So I
get a case, and you typically get a chance to
read about your case before you do it. So you've
got your records from the referring vet and I'm reading
and I'm supposed to see a cat with what it
literally says is a ten centimeter abdominal mass or tumor
on the abdomen.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
That's huge.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
A cat is like this long, and tenants centimeters.
Speaker 2 (04:33):
Is like half the cat's like half the cat.
Speaker 3 (04:35):
Okay. So I'm like, oh my god, this is going
to be disgusting and awful and I'm going to have
to give these people horrible news about this poor cat.
This is not going to go well. So the way
we did it is the student had to do their
exam first and then report back to the resident, and
then the resident does their exam. So my student comes
to me and she says, you know, cat has dental disease,
(04:58):
and she's naming all these things that she's finding on
this cat. And I'm like, okay, waiting for the there
should be a huge tumor that you're reporting to me,
and she doesn't, and I'm like, I'm not going well
for this student. And you are getting an f you
are literally missing half the cat. Yeah. So I'm like, okay,
let's go look together. Let's go do a real exam.
(05:20):
So I'm examining this cat, and you know you're palpating
the abdomen. You're doing all your things, and I'm like, well,
now I'm a little confused because I don't feel this tumor.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
So that they had said there was a tumor inside
the abdomen.
Speaker 3 (05:32):
Either on or in either way, you should be able
to feel this ten centimeter mass.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
I mean, we're yeah, and that for the listeners out there,
when we're doing our physical exam, like a lot of
times you'll see us pressing on your pet's belly and
we're feeling for like any organs that are enlarged, or
any abnormalities, and a lot of well, I wouldn't say
a lot of times, but it's not uncommon for us
to palpate something like ooh, this is really big and unusual.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Yep. So that's what I'm expecting for this poor cat.
So I don't find it, and now I'm confused. Is
this the right pet? Some people have multi pet households.
It's not unheard of to bring the wrong cat to
the vet. So I go into the room as a
sweet old man, and I put the cat on the
table and I'm like, you're here for a big mess.
You felt something right, and he's like, yeah, it's huge.
(06:16):
I'm like, oh, and it's this kitty cat. He's like, yes,
it's her. I said, okay, and then he says, you
know sometimes it drags on the floor when she walks.
And I'm like, really, I put the cat on the floor,
who's a little overweight? Cats are? And then it clicks
(06:36):
it is this cat's poopa, her poopa's sweet little belly.
You were telling me this cat came to the oncologist
for poupa, for her foopa. So now we're fat shaming
this poor girl. She's seeing an oncologist for it. No,
(06:57):
when I tell you, first of all, I'm relieved all this,
sweet man, I don't have to tell anything that. I'm like, oh,
so that's just her.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Those are just her lady part. You know, she's just
a little chubby, she's in menopause.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
Or certain little she's all right, you should drag it a.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
Little bit of her chunk.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
My god, mind you. So I have to write up
a case. You have to give people take home discharges.
You do this, yeah, to do so, I have to
document what happened. And so my student gets to start
this document and we use templates for our documents and
she's so sweet. I always say, use the template. Use
the template. She comes back, she goes doctor Corett, there's
(07:35):
no template for fu PA.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
I was like, no, no, there's not.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Oh, there would not be.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
I'm dying that giving people good news in my setting
is really rare, right, So telling someone there's not a
tumor there, Yeah, it's not a tumor is truly like
a treat.
Speaker 3 (07:57):
And for it to just be like normal anatomy even
bigger treat.
Speaker 2 (08:03):
You've never been so excited to talk about a fupa
in your life.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
Never in my life, nor has this happened since which
now I'm like, okay, I mean I guess it could
feel like a humor.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
Yeah, it is so funny. Like I guess if people
don't have a ton of cats, they could be like,
why is there this fat sack and my cat's abdomen?
But it's really normal for fat cats.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
Any listeners who don't have a cat, it's pretty impressive
how much chub they can carry in that area. Sometimes
that's all the area, and it's just.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Like swaying in the wind, sway in the wind.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
Try giving one of those cats a bath and then
you can really yes, appreciate with a lot of a
lot of muffin tops. It's several muffins, usually on top
of each other.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
That is really funny. That's like in GP. I've told
the story, but we a lot of times will get
men that bring in dogs, mainly men, dogs with bumps
on their belly, and I'm like, sir, this is a nipple,
so I love it.
Speaker 3 (08:56):
I said that. I actually was gonna say things that
people mistake for tumors. Nipples, yes, and also love handles
ah yes, on the back.
Speaker 2 (09:06):
A lot of times I'm like, oh, look at this
bomb and I'm like, oh, that's a love man.
Speaker 3 (09:09):
I feel like this.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
I say, see how there's two yeah, perfectly symmetrical on
either side. I do. I have the same thing as well, exactly.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
That's so funny.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
Okay, great, well that's amazing, and now we all know
fupas are not in fact cancerous. We're going to take
a quick break and then we're going to come right back.
We're going to dive into all things cancer with doctor
kretz d s aka Donda. Okay, so, Donda, how out
(09:44):
of all the specialties did you decide to be a
veterinary oncologist.
Speaker 3 (09:49):
I think some people might think it's kind of like
self deprecating and really sad and depressing, but I think
what led me to it, and you met him, my
sweet sunny man. I had a Golden Retriever. Everyone who
knows knows that, despite what I do for a living,
I'm a sucker for those dogs. And he had cancer
and it's not actually uncommon for Golden retrievers to have
(10:09):
more than one cancer, and my dude, Sonny ended up
with three by the time he passed away. But it
was really, I think a turning point for me to
kind of decide into a specialty, and one that really
involves bonding with clients on a really deep level through
both a really really good and exciting but also a
(10:31):
lot of grief. And you bond with people in a
way that you know is not true for every specialty,
and it's really a deep connection that you develop with
the clients. And it really drove me to kind of,
you know, go that direction. And it's been true, honestly
every day, just the relationships that I develop with my
(10:53):
clients and of course the dogs, Like that's an endorphin
rush every time a Golden Retriever comes in, but it's
really the relationships their owners.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
I feel like it's so interesting and maybe people don't
know this, but veterinarians, just like human doctors, can specialize,
so we have I guess I'll start with I'm a
general practitioner. I went to VET school for four years
and then I came out and started working in like
your average everyday GP. There are others who specialize like
Daniella did, and they go on to do an internship,
(11:22):
three years of residency, sometimes even more schooling, and they
can be surgeons, they can be cardiologists, they can be ophthalmologists, oncologists,
and of those specialties, I feel like oncology, my gosh.
I'm sure people think, wow, that must be so tough
in human medicine. I'm sure too, But to me, I
think that those relationships must be so rewarding.
Speaker 3 (11:44):
They are. And you know how often my clients will
go like They'll be seriously like mid crying. They're like,
I don't know how you do this for a living.
I'm like, sometimes I cry. I think it's really important
to be a human not hold back if you need to.
You know, if you're treating a dog for a year
and a half for two years, and it's time. I've cried,
(12:05):
for sure. But the good absolutely outweighs the sad and
the bad. And one thing that I think is really
important to point out is that some of these owners,
they really they get like this new lease on life
with their pet when they know that the time, even
though we all know they're mortal, when they realize that
that time is truly limited. It is what I tell
my clients, I say, make everyday Disney World, right, and
(12:28):
they do. They say, you know what, doctor Kurtz, we
had amazing six months, which isn't enough to me. It's
never enough. But they literally say, like, you told me
to treat them like it's Disney World every day. And
we did poppuccinos, gaining ten pounds, you know, like the
things that the dogs are not allowed to do their
whole life. Yeah, they get to do when they're diagnosed
(12:49):
with cancer. Final bucket list, Oh my gosh, special beach
trips and you know again McDonald's, I'm telling you some
of these guys coming. I'm like, so we're in a
remission and then you know, he's getting like two pounds
every week. Ll it's like pump the brakes a little
spoil but like I need him to walk.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Let's like modify the bucket list a little bit.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
But that's what people do, so it's a really rewarding
chunk of time that they get.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, that's true. I guess like that was. No matter
how long it is, at least they're getting that time
to cherish with their animals and really make the most
of it. Yeah, So what would you say? I mean,
I think there's so many owners out there. I think, gosh,
I don't know about people, but even myself I think about,
oh my gosh, do I have cancer. I think we
(13:34):
just like really think about it and really psych ourselves out.
And I know my clients are always like, I'm worried
about my dog having cancer and my cat having cancer.
What are some things that people can do to sort
of ensure that they're being proactive with their pets or
screen their pets for cancer. I know there's like a
lot of different opinions on that.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Yeah, I think the most important thing for a pet
owner is to be your pets biggest and most important advocate.
So if you think about even for yourself, you know,
if something's wrong, like you're gonna advocate for yourself hopefully
same thing with the pets. You know, at home screening
is actually very doable, whether it's just feeling your pet
(14:14):
for a new lump or bomp or you know, I
don't know that people realize, but dogs have lymph nodes
here just like people do, and so feeling for those
things at home is something you can do. Is a
part of your routine every couple of weeks. I'm not
saying do a rectal exam at home, like I don't
recommend that, Yeah, leave that up to doctor Josie, but
your service ways that you can and even something like
(14:37):
an oral tumor, right if your dogs panting, take a
peek in there. Right, So these are things that you
can do to be proactive at home so that you
don't miss something that really could have made a difference
early on common misconception. Normal blood work. Yeah, you know,
we've talked about this before. Normal blood work often translates
(14:57):
to people like almost as a cancer screen and that's
not always the case, majority of the time, not the case,
almost never the case.
Speaker 2 (15:05):
Right, Yeah, I will say, like as a GP screening,
blood work is really important. It helps me understand how
are their organs functioning, how are their cell counts, So
it can really tell me a lot about their overall health.
But ninety nine percent of the time, if they do
have some sort of cancer, that's not usually picked up
on lab work. So just like you said, doing those
(15:26):
looking for lumps and bums, I think like major behavioral
changes or weight loss, that's something where it's like, ooh,
this is not normal and worth investigating.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Yeah, and I mean I did not coin this phrase,
but age is not a disease. So a lot of
the times a ped owner will say, well, I just
thought it was just slowing down. Slowing down over many
years is normal. We all have aches and pains. Slowing
down in a couple weeks or a couple months that
should be something that should ring some sort of alarm.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
Yeah, maybe we should get this looked at. I also
think too, it's so important. I talk about this a
lot on my social media and on the podcast. If
you do find a lumper a bump, knowing that you know,
I think it can be our tendency like that's probably
just a fatty thing, like we'll just or it's a sis,
it's no big deal, Like we'll just watch it. Like
I think it is so important to aspirate it, and
that's something that we can do as your GP. It's
(16:19):
so easy for us to do. We just tick a
tiny little needle in they can be Most dogs are
wide awake. It doesn't really bother them. They don't need
to be sedated. It's minimally invasive, not super expensive, and
so worth doing because it can really help us get
an idea of like is this bad, do we need
to look into this further? Or now we probably don't
need to worry.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
About it exactly. And this is it's kind of reminds
me of when you get your nails done and you're
afraid to say you didn't like them. Yeah, if you're
not comfortable saying it's just nothing without sampling it like
just advocate for your nails, advocate for your.
Speaker 2 (16:53):
Pet, and we're back to manicures.
Speaker 3 (16:56):
Something about it, because sampling should be part of like
this standard care. Totally.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
I sound like such a nerd. I always say why
wait aspiry, which I know is so nerdy, but I
live by that. Why wait aspiry? It's so easy to do, easy,
and it can save your pets life. Yeah, So so
there are a couple of different new tests out there
that sort of market themselves as cancer screening and pets.
(17:22):
I know there's like some urine tests and blood tests.
What do you think about those?
Speaker 3 (17:27):
I love seeing how much technology is helping veterinary medicine
and just watching, you know, the new developments. It's just
the same as in human medicine. You got to take
it with a grain of salt and some caution because
sometimes we get these results right, these screening tests for pets,
(17:48):
you know, certain dog breeds, or you know, someone gets
a Golden Retriever and they think they're going to get
ahead of it. These tests have value, and I think
there's a lot more studying that we need to do
and more testing to figure out where they're places. But
it can be a little bit misleading or misguiding to
have a test that tells you you have some percentage
likelihood that your pet is going to get cancer or
(18:11):
is carrying some sort of trait or gene because we
don't really understand the utility in a practical sense. What
do you do with that test result?
Speaker 2 (18:21):
I see, so it's like, okay, we have this golden retriever,
probably a golden retriever is going to come back with
a very high likelihood of having some sort of genetic
predisposition to getting cancer. So we get the information that
we probably already know, and then it's like, what do
we do with this as owners as GPS, what do
we do? I don't know, Like full body MRI every
(18:41):
six months, which again isn't really a realistical.
Speaker 3 (18:45):
Sense, is not realistic. I mean, in the human world,
you're not going to get an MRI every six months
for if nothing else than the radiation exposure. But it's
something that is I believe in the future going to
have a place, and a lot of really smart people
are working on these tests. But in a practical sense,
I can honestly tell you I do not recommend them
(19:06):
as of right now, and I don't use them.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That's fair. Yeah, I don't know that I would change
anything that we do. How interesting, and not to mention,
MRIs are really expensive and your pet has to go
under full anesthesia for them. Honestly, those tests that gives
me anxiety. I'm kind of I would just be like
staring at my pets all day.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Yeah, you would, And I think that that's probably where
I would draw the line. If your relationship with your
pets starts to change because of a test that you
maybe never needed to do, you know, again being practical,
and you actually just said it, how is this going
to change.
Speaker 2 (19:44):
What I do?
Speaker 3 (19:45):
Right? That should be the reason that we do tests,
willy nilly. Just doing tests to have a test result
can actually sometimes I think, cause more harm than good.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, send you down a rabbit hole that maybe you
didn't need to go down, I mean, prone to that
hypochondriac right here. So okay, what are some of the
most common cancers you see in dogs?
Speaker 3 (20:06):
So I would say, by far and wide, you know,
kind of our bread and butter is gonna be canine lymphoma, okay,
which is a disease that affects the lymph nodes. These
lymph centers are what we call multi centric lymphoma. The
telltale sign is usually actually not a pet being sick.
It's these big lumps or tumors that people perceive.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
They're like golf balls.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
They can be huge. So that's really really common, highly treatable,
and can be very rewarding. When I talk about my
long term relationships with my patients, it's often lymphoma patients.
They're amazing they come in for chemo, and I see
them every week sometimes for a long time, so very
rewarding disease most of the time to treat. The second
(20:52):
one that's probably huge is going to be your mass
cell tumor. Skin tumors that can be really pesky, and honestly,
general practitioners do a beautiful job referring and also treating
them themselves, depending on you know, the complex kind of
nature of the situation or the case.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
But yeah, that's really interesting that you bring that up,
because I see a lot of skin tumors. Like, if
someone has asked me, what's the most common cancer, you
see mine, maybe mass cell tumors probably far and away.
And anyone listening that's had multiple dogs probably has had
a dog or has heard of mass cell tumor. It's
the most common skin cancer and a dog. And it's
interesting in that in human medicine it's a little bit different,
(21:30):
but in veterinary medicine, we can, as GPS, treat anything
until we feel comfortable with it, and then once we
hit that point, we're like, I'm not so comfortable, let
me send it to the specialist. And so it's very
common for GPS to say Okay, your dog has a
skin tumor. I'm going to do surgery on it, and
then it take what we call wide margins, get really
healthy tissue around it, so we know we've gotten that
(21:52):
whole tumor off. And then from there, if you know,
for whatever reason it comes back or a metastasized, we
usually send it off to the oncologist. One thing that
I think is interesting is some gps are doing chemo,
and again that kind of comes back to their comfort level,
and I think that that's a little controversial. I think
for me, i'd be interested to know what you think.
(22:13):
You're laughing. I think that if your pet has cancer
and it needs further treatment like chemotherapy, I would if
you have access to go to the oncologist. You're it's
worth the couple hundred dollars you might save. You won't
save going to the oncologists, but it's definitely worth the
money that you would save if you went to your GP.
Speaker 3 (22:32):
Yes, Josie, I do laugh because I really look chemotherapy.
Let's just review real quick what that is. It's designed
to be a poison. It's a poison that kills DNA
in its simplest form, right, it kills those cells, so
you don't really want to be messing with it. We
have special chambers where we pull up this chemo that
(22:55):
we administer. Each chemo has its own special set of
side effects. It's it's really something that I don't think
is made to be in the GP practice simply if
not for anything else other than just the things you
need for logistically right, And you know, I'll say I'm
the first one and be like, I don't know how
(23:15):
to do GP things. And you know, I think if
you feel comfortable giving chemo, maybe you shouldn't be unless
I don't know what the circumstances are.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
Yeah, I don't know. I don't think it's I think
it's becoming less and less common. I guess. I just
like want the listeners to know if you have the
option of going through a GP for chemo or an
oncologist all day long, go to your oncologist. Yeah, and
I want to We'll dive into chemo because I think
that's I get tons of questions about that and our pets.
So what are some of the common cancers that you
(23:50):
see in cats?
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Cats? And I have a cat, love of my life,
very fluffy, beautiful man The most common thing to see
in cats is going to be gastruintestinal disease with lymphoma.
So it's like same cancer category, but in dogs it's
here in the lymphnotes and in cats it's more commonly
in the GI track. So the big stuff to watch
(24:13):
for your cats is weight loss. It's not normal for
a cat to lose weight and vomiting diary, all that
gross stuff. That's the most common thing we see cats.
For cats are tricky. The cat listeners out there, they're
like good, good, good, good good, until they're like crashing
all of a stuff.
Speaker 2 (24:33):
Yes, we've talked about this quite a bit. We actually
had doctor bean On who we went to school with,
and we talked about cats are so tough in that
they don't really A dog stubs its toe and it's like,
oh my god, help me take me to the hospital,
call the ambulance, and a cat is like one minute
away from death and he's like, I'm fine, I'm good.
(24:53):
Like cats are tough, so it can be hard to
tell when something's really wrong exactly.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
And then sometimes it's you know, they tend to have
the very aggressive form of lymphoma. Like I mean, there's
two main kinds, but the really aggressive kind that affects cats,
it goes fast. So again it goes back to what
I was saying earlier, like, trust your gut, this isn't
normal for your pet. Get it investigated, even if they're
(25:17):
being you know, really stoic.
Speaker 2 (25:20):
Yeah, it all comes back to advocating for your animals,
just like you said.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Absolutely.
Speaker 2 (25:24):
Okay, So your pet gets diagnosed with cancer and the
listener or owners goes to you as the oncologist, and
I'm assuming you present them with treatment options radiation, chimo,
and number one thing that I hear and I'm sure
that you hear, is well, what is my pet's quality
of life going to be? What are the side effects?
What do you say to them?
Speaker 3 (25:44):
This is one of my favorite things to educate owners
on because I actually tell them. I say, you know,
my job would really suck if I was making these beautiful,
innocent creatures sick all the time. And I'm really lucky
to say I'm not doing that. So in humans, you know,
chemotherapy is designed ideally to cure you, right, you know,
(26:06):
because if you're treating somebody, you want them to have
their full life. You want them to make it to
their kids, graduation or whatever. In dogs, the goal is different.
Most of the cancers that I treat are not going
to be curable, so we're really focused on quality of life.
Quantity is great, that's a secondary goal, but my primary
goal is quality, quality, equality, and so the dosages that
(26:29):
we use are a little bit different. I'm very quick
to reduce the dose of chemotherapy if it's making my
patient sick, and you really tailor it to the owner
and to the pet what everyone can tolerate. But most
of the time they're not getting sick. If they are,
it's usually mild. Hair loss is only seen in a
couple breeds. Which breeds are that are those doodles. Doodles
(26:55):
will lose their hair.
Speaker 2 (26:58):
Like they go completely bald. Sometimes, my gosh, I've never
had a patient go bald from chemo. A bald doodle.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
I just have to tell you. The cutest story is
there's this beautiful dog. Her name's Callie, and she's a doodle.
She got chemo and she has a little two year
old boy at home that she lives with. And her
mom said that when Calli lost all her hair during chemo,
he would wake up every morning and say, you look
beautiful today. CALLI.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
Oh, that's the cutest thing I ever heard.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
I was like, And so every time she'd come to
see me and she was naked. They grow it back
a little bit. But I'm like, Kelly, you look beautiful today,
and they are naked naked like, they come in sweaters
and things like that.
Speaker 2 (27:39):
When their hair goes back, does it grow back different
colors or different texture like humans?
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Yes, Okay, they come back. The experience I've had is
that the hooodly part goes away, okay, and they start
to be more like goldens, like wavy, yeah, and then
goldens will lose their feathers. So for those who know
what a golden treeok is like, they're beautiful and feathered.
The feathers go away often, so it's like this unique
thing that happens to that breed.
Speaker 2 (28:04):
But I do find that most of them like eat fine,
drink fine. They're bouncing around sometimes they even feel better
on it, like they tend to do very very well.
Speaker 3 (28:13):
They do. And I have owners who are like, I
didn't realize how sick he was until we did the chemo.
He's like a puppy again. And then I'm like, yeah,
chemo for everyone.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
And you get chemo. And another thing that's really interesting
is a lot of the owners are surprised to find
out that the chemo therapy is almost it is a
lot of times the same drugs that we use in humans.
Speaker 3 (28:32):
Yep, absolutely, so the majority of it. There's definitely some
veterinary specific chemo drugs, but I use chemo that people
get for either the same disease or even a different disease.
And there's just a lot of overlap because the studies
overlapped too. You know, the cancers don't always behave exactly
the same way, but they're very similar. And you know,
(28:55):
I have clients who tell me, oh my gosh, I
got that drug when I was back in cancer, And
people share with me very often, and I feel very
humbled that people feel comfortable enough to share with me
about their own cancer journeys. And they often tell me,
you know, I don't want that drug from my dog,
I was so sick when I got that, or oh
(29:15):
you know, I remember this, so I mean literally like
the chop protocol for limfima, and it has been used
in people. They're like, oh my gosh, I know someone
who had that, or my neighbor. Yeah, but dogs and
cats handle Cats are aliens. They handle chemo phenomenally.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, they're like, this is great.
Speaker 3 (29:33):
What neutral film? They're like, what white blood cells? And
who needs them? Yeah, they don't care for losers.
Speaker 2 (29:39):
That's really something that you said though, that I think
is really important.
Speaker 3 (29:41):
That always.
Speaker 2 (29:44):
Is interesting to me and to owners is that there
is a lot of translational medicine here. So we have
a lot of the cancers that are in dogs, for example, osteosarcoma,
which my great Dane died from, is bone cancer. A
lot of children stuff from that as well, and so
a lot of like the studies and drugs that we
use in our pets is a lot of times experimental
(30:06):
in the sense of like we're trying to figure out
is it going to work for humans?
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Exactly?
Speaker 2 (30:10):
So interesting.
Speaker 3 (30:11):
It's amazing how many really really smart, much smarter than me,
people are working on trying to cure some day these
children of these really really aggressive, very painful tumors. And
there is a lot of translation, not just for the mutations,
but for the different drugs that can be you know,
utilized to try to block some of these cancer pathways,
(30:33):
and particularly the cancers that we know affect a really
vulnerable population of people, which are young kids and you know,
adolescents who end up use losing a limb over this.
Speaker 2 (30:44):
You know.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
So while we've made a lot of steps forward, we
have so much more work to do. And if you
look at literature and you look at studies that look
at you know, human cancers, they have like thousands of
subjects dogs and cats. You know, you're like, oh my gosh,
this so you had forty dogs, Like this is really reliable. Yeah, yeah,
I could really do this one. So it's it's still
(31:06):
a long way from where we would like it to be,
and it's still a very devastating disease as you know. Yeah,
but yeah, it's I think we take it for granted
how much we can help people when we are treating
and studying canine and feline cancer.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
And that's something that I feel like a High State especially,
we like really they really preach with something called one health,
where it's like public health, human health, antal health. It's
so all deeply intertwined. Like even with the bird flu
that's breaking out right now, starts with birds can affect
our cattle, our cats at home are getting sick, humans
are getting sick. Like all of these things are so intertwined,
and so as health professionals. It's like, you know, I know,
(31:46):
people say we're animal doctors, but a lot of it
is so so deeply intertwined.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
I mean, I don't know about you guys during COVID,
but like, yeah, got emails, so can you come help vaccinate?
Oh yeah, you know, I mean you should probably cut
this out. But Peloton did not recognize us.
Speaker 2 (32:03):
I know, you know what, I'm not cutting this out.
Peloton was like, oh, veterinarians, they're not health professionals. We're
not giving them a discount.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
Yeah, I'm not going to forget that. I wish I could.
Speaker 2 (32:11):
I know, well, I'm not getting sponsored by them.
Speaker 3 (32:14):
I'm sorry.
Speaker 2 (32:15):
Oh okay, okay. So you talked about chemotherapy. What about
what would you say, like, are some of the side
effects you see from radiation? And how do pets tolerate radiation?
Speaker 3 (32:24):
Yeah? So side effects with radiation are It kind of
depends on what protocol you do. So you could do
a lot of radiation where like these guys are coming
in every day for a month, so that's pretty intensive
and those side effects are always going to be more
intense hair loss. This one definitely right, and then sometimes
the skin can get kind of like sun burnt or
(32:44):
burnt truly but can be very effective. Depends on the tumor. Yeah,
and we definitely do multimodal therapy where you actually can
do a combo first you do surgery, chemo radiation, which
sometimes when I talk to my dad about this, who's
a human on call, just I think it really blows
his mind. He's like, wait, you do this to animals.
(33:05):
He's like, people do this. I'm like, oh, yeah, Dad,
they do. And he's like for a dog. I'm like,
these are family.
Speaker 2 (33:13):
Yeah, like family member.
Speaker 3 (33:14):
There are people who are like when do I start? Yeah,
And I'm like, I'm going to have to tell you
about the price of all of this. They're like, we
don't care. This is my child.
Speaker 2 (33:22):
Speaking of price, let's say you have a Golden retriever
it's diagnosed with themphoma and you're going to go through
the chop chemo protocol. What would you what's like a
rough quote for that, just so listeners have an idea.
Speaker 3 (33:32):
Yeah, it's so it's important to point out chop is
sixteen weeks, so sixteen treatments and if you finish it
and you pay as you go. But if you finish it,
I think you can range anywhere from seven K all
the way up to over maybe ten or even twelve
K for the whole thing. Okay, depends on which part
of the country are in or where you're practicing.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
And that protocol specifically, it can give you years.
Speaker 3 (34:00):
I can so with the kind of big lumps multi
centric lymphoma that I was describing, it really depends. I've
got dogs that have made it for two years, and
we get really excited about that. That's probably only around
twenty percent of the population with lymphoma. So the multi
centric lymphoma dogs may not make it to a year,
(34:22):
And to say years is definitely possible, but not as
common as we would like better.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
You know, it's important that we don't sugarcoat it, and
we have those prognoses, and maybe your pet is one
of the twenty percent, but also in reality, the likelihood
is that it probably isn't.
Speaker 3 (34:36):
I think sugarcoating in my world is probably one of
the least desirable things you can do. And I tell
my clients, I say, if you want honesty, you're in
the right place with me in this office. Because I'm
not going to lie to you. It's not fair. I
think most people really appreciate that and are coming to
you for honest expectations.
Speaker 2 (34:56):
Yeah, how do you handle I know I gp a lot.
They either go to see you or they don't. How
do you handle, Hey, here are your treatment options, and
for whatever reason, people are like, I don't want to
go through with chemotherapy. It is very expensive. So how
do you handle like saying, Okay, we're not going to
do treatment, We're going to do palliative care. And how
do you handle that level of guilt? I feel like
(35:18):
a lot of owners feel.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
You're so right, And I think part of our jobs
as veterinarians is to make sure that we present options
free of judgment, because our only job as pet owners
is to prevent suffering. And so the way I talk
to my clients is Chemo's not for everybody. There are
multiple factors that go into deciding to do chemotherapy for
(35:42):
your beloved family member and pet, and finances should be
a part of the conversation. They have to be. It
is extremely expensive, especially if you don't have entrance for
your pet. Yeah, And ultimately I tell them, I said,
I'm not here to sell you chemo and you love
your pet. You wouldn't go to an ornary oncologists if
you didn't love your pet, right, Yeah, So leaving my
(36:04):
office and not doing chemos should not be a reason
to feel guilty because it's really not the right choice
for everyone. Palliative care with steroids can still get a
lot of patients good time and good quality again with
the correct expectations, and you know, just not allowing your
pet to suffer is doing your job.
Speaker 2 (36:26):
Yes, I think that is such a great way to
put it. I think that is you nailed it on
the head. I think what I try and tell owners
is it's worth going to the oncologists and getting all
of your information and then from there you can make
the decision that's best for you and your family and
your pet. And I just like love that you said,
(36:47):
we don't want you to leave feeling guilty. I think
maybe there's maybe there's always a little piece of that
because we're humans. But I you know, for example, at
my Luca that had osio startcoma, we didn't do anything
except palliative care. We got six amazing months, but you know,
I didn't think treatment would have been best for her,
and so I guess I just like want to if
you don't have ten thousand dollars to spend on the
(37:09):
chop protocol and that doesn't you know, fit your family's
needs or your pets needs, Like it's.
Speaker 3 (37:14):
Okay, one hundred percent. And actually that is so important
because that's people forget. That is such a big part
of my job is actually just giving people the comfort
of knowing that that's okay to do, or even to
say there aren't any good options, and then I tell
them I'm really sorry, I don't know if this is helpful,
and you know how often they tell me that's actually
(37:35):
incredibly helpful. Yeah, to know that there wasn't anything else
I could do, right, like just getting that a little
bit of that piece.
Speaker 2 (37:42):
Peace of mind. One thing that you also just said
that I think is really important and I usually hammer
this home on this podcast, but if you can get
pet insurance for your animal the second you adopt them,
the second they're puppies are kittens, man, it could change
your life, could change their life louder for the people
in the back pet insurance.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
Pet insurance taking that part of the decision making out
of the conversation is incredibly helpful and people, I mean,
it is covered. This is not a pre existing condition.
If you get your pet insured and a year later
it gets cancer, this is not pre existing correct and.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
Can make a huge difference financially. I don't know if
you guys can hear this. We don't need to pause that.
My dogs are going off the rails right now. Biggie's
like grunting on the ground. Saya, can you goalay on
your bed? Sister, you can do it? Go get down?
Speaker 3 (38:33):
Okay, where were we? I'm torn between encouraging her and.
Speaker 2 (38:38):
Discouraging I like, Auntie Donda, can you stop needing it down?
Speaker 3 (38:42):
Saya? She's giving me the Sarah McLaughlin's song eyes.
Speaker 2 (38:49):
How do you We've I've done a whole she is Syah,
goalie on your bed, ther.
Speaker 3 (38:54):
Arms of an angel over here right now?
Speaker 2 (38:56):
Yeah? Okay, Now she's going to me. When you have
clients that are nearing and I've done a whole episode
on youth and asia, so we don't have to go
too far into it. But when they're nearing that time,
how do you what are some of the things that
you point out when you're like, this is what I
monitor for quality of life. This is what helps me
know when it's time. What do you say to them?
Speaker 3 (39:17):
It's the hardest part of having a pet. And what
I tell people. First of all, I tell them, I say,
it's easier for me to talk to you about this,
but when I'm sitting in that chair someday with my
own dog, and I have sat in that chair, it's
just an impossible thing to wrap your mind around. So
what I talk to them about is, you know, as
(39:38):
easy and as simple as you know. Your dog doesn't
have a watch or a calendar. He's not worried about
not making it to Christmas. He lives for every moment
that he has. And how lucky is that. I try
to say, if you can just focus on the fact
that they don't know what cancer is, they don't know
what passing away is. They just live for you and
(39:59):
for the pet, and for the food or whatever. Each
dog has three or four things that make that dog them,
and when they don't do those things anymore, it's just
their way of saying, I'm not having a good time anymore.
I don't want to be here like this. And so
I do remind people it's not always that they stopped
eating or you know, they are not crying in pain,
(40:22):
so they're probably not in pain. I may not never
do that, so every dog's different. But really focusing on
better a week early than a day late. I don't
know if that's helpful, but that think it is what
I try to telp my clients about and oftentimes they
want to see it through to the end with me,
(40:44):
which I am a marshmallow. Like I do go into
a private room and cry afterwards, like me too. It's
really one of those things that it's an honor for
people to say that to me. But I'm always like, ooh,
I know, is gonna hurt.
Speaker 2 (41:00):
Is an honor, and I really do look at it
as a privilege, but gosh, I'm crying in a closet
by myself. Afterwards.
Speaker 3 (41:06):
My nurses are like, are you okay. I'm like, I
just need a minute, Yes.
Speaker 2 (41:10):
I'll be fine. What are some advancements in veterinary I
know we've talked about it a little bit in veterinary oncology.
You're like, yes, this is going to be great. Are
there anything good on the horizon coming up? As far
as science goes.
Speaker 3 (41:24):
We're really, i think cautiously excited about AI making its
way into veterinary medicine, and even since I came out
of residency, which is a little while ago but not
that long ago, we've started to use different companies that
are implementing AI into predicting, you know, whether it's responses
(41:47):
to chemotherapy or actually analyzing you know, the genomic profile
of a tumor, which in people is really really common.
Speaker 2 (41:55):
What would you say is a myth about cancer and
our pets?
Speaker 3 (42:00):
The biggest myth I think is about suffering from side
effects from chemo. But then the second, probably one of
the most I think commonly asked things in the room
is diet.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
I hear this a lot.
Speaker 3 (42:20):
So what can I feed my dog to either make
the cancer go away? Or what can I feed my
dog to prevent cancer? And the short answer is, I
think we would all know about this diet if it existed,
right for sure. I am a believer, and I know
you had Val Parker on. I am a believer in
(42:42):
balanced nutrition for your pet, and that's going to have
huge benefits. But we do not have any evidence to
say that it prevents cancer from developing or that it
will make your pets cancer go away.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Yeah, I understand being in the position of like, Okay,
my pet is sick, I will do anything to make
them better, and like kind of looking for all the solutions,
but at that point we're kind of grasping for straws
because there is no scientific studies. And yes, maybe your
aunt sister's second cousin had six had a great outcome
(43:18):
and they were feeding raw food, but that doesn't mean
all dogs with cancer should eat raw food. In fact,
no pets should eat raw food. But that's for a
different day. I just, yeah, I struggle with that a
little bit.
Speaker 3 (43:28):
I'm going to have to second that, and I think
sometimes it's no pun intended, a hard thing to swallow
to realize that there isn't really that much you can
do at home. From a diet standpoint, I'm so sorry,
but supplement standpoint, you know, I love reiki, but not
(43:48):
seeing it, you know, really it's and I practice evedence
space medicine, so I think, you know, you're getting a
veterinarian college's point of view. I think it's nice to
exist in parallel with alternative medicine, but when it comes
to diet, I haven't seen anything that's been like really
shown to make a difference.
Speaker 2 (44:07):
What about with mushrooms. People love the mushroom stuf.
Speaker 3 (44:10):
Hurt detailsoms, Yeah, they do love it. All the scientific
data behind those Actually there's a little bit of data
that says it doesn't work. But I do try to
make sure and recognize that this is a sensitive subject
and that it is also typically not hurting, and I
(44:32):
want to make sure that my clients have this space
to know that they tried something. What I usually say is, look,
I don't know what it does or doesn't do, because
that's not my line of work. I haven't seen the
hard evidence that I typically use to make my decisions clinically.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
Yeah, I think that's fair. It's like, if you want
to give a mushroom supplement, it's probably not going to
hurt anything. It might not work, but maybe it'll make
us feel because I know, as humans like we want
to feel like we're doing something anything, and we love
these animals so much. So if that make check that
box for some people.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
Which checks that box for a lot of people, I.
Speaker 2 (45:07):
Bet I will say, though, feeding raw food that can
be dangerous for your pets. I've had a patient die
from eating raw food, So that one I'm like, mm, hmm.
And if they're on chemo and they're immune suppressed anyways,
it can be really bad.
Speaker 3 (45:19):
Let us exactly, thanks Josie for saying that. Let us
not forget that if they're getting chemo, they are going
to potentially be susceptible to getting sick anyway, even if
it's a little bit more susceptible. I do not recommend
raw food in that scenario or any scenario. It's not
my jam either.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Yeah, a lot of a lot of side effects from
that any amazing. I'm sure you have a lot, but
any success stories that stand out for you in your career, thank.
Speaker 3 (45:50):
You for saying that. I have a lot. Yeah, such
a great on college.
Speaker 2 (45:53):
Yees.
Speaker 3 (45:54):
No, I have so many stories, and you know, people
and pets that are so like ingre in my memory
and near and dear to my heart. But one that
really sticks out is one of the cutest things I've
ever seen is actually a dog that finished her chemo
and was able to witness her parents getting married, like
(46:17):
put the paw on the paw, No as a witness?
Speaker 2 (46:21):
Like what is what is it? Is it not a Bible?
It's like a marriage certific.
Speaker 3 (46:25):
I mean I think that a witness signs.
Speaker 2 (46:27):
Yeah, and so you know, she signs her signature her paw.
That's the cutest thing I've ever seen in my life.
Speaker 3 (46:33):
I like, I have a little goosebump because I think
it's so adorable. And again, I'm a marshmallow, so I
have a lot of things are adorable. But that is
one of those things that I always remember. But I
have countless stories, countless clients. It's I'm like getting all
gushy and annoying. It's just we said we were going
to cry on Mary, so not gushy to cry. But
I really like, there's so many good stories.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
Yeah, I feel like that's such a you make lemonade
out of lemons. Yeah, with this, with your.
Speaker 3 (47:00):
Career, you have to.
Speaker 2 (47:01):
Yeah, you have to or you will be crying. Okay,
we are going to take a quick break. We're going
to dive into ponn order when we come right back.
All right, we are back, and on this week's pawn Order,
we are going to have doctor Daniella take it away
(47:23):
with three things that she would not do or doesn't
recommend as a veginary oncologist. Dondo take it away.
Speaker 3 (47:32):
One of the biggest things that I would like everyone
to know is that you should not go to your
oncologists and ask them to look in the ears or
look at the poop. You cannot imagine how many people
are like, check that tumor. But can you also while
I'm here, can you look at the ears? Actually literally
say I don't have a notoscope. I don't know how
(47:54):
to do that. Yeah, I love my GP friends and colleagues.
They're so good at that. Stick with your GP for poop,
our ears and all the things. They're super good at
the poop. Do not bring me a bag of poop
our poor owners are so conditioned to bringing a poop
sample because we're like, bring up fecal, bring up fetal.
It's like grain ingrained into them. So anytime they're going
to the vet, whether it's an oncologist, I think they just.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
Are like, well, I'll bring a poop sample, and they're
still like.
Speaker 3 (48:18):
Crown in this little neat bag. They're on my way
out of the room, like do you want this? I'm like, no,
thank you.
Speaker 2 (48:25):
That in fact does not help with the cancer treatment.
Speaker 3 (48:28):
No, we don't detect any cancers in the poop, so
it's it's totally okay to keep that for your GPS.
Speaker 2 (48:35):
And I would like to say, please keep bringing me
your poop because I usually do need a poop sample.
Speaker 3 (48:40):
So another one is essential oils, and I remectin.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
This is a hot topic on social media right now.
I remectin especially, it is a hot topic.
Speaker 3 (48:52):
Once again, I gotta rewind to what I said. You know,
I practice even ince space medicine. Try not to bring
that up. Yeah, unless there's some revolutionary thing that happens,
you know, and I'm open to new studies. Yeah, as
of right now, I'm going to go with a note
and the essential oils. They smell nice. But we actually
used to have a pet that would come in and
he was covered in whatever flavor it was, but he
(49:14):
was like covered in it. I'm like, this is overwhelming.
A little everybody, a.
Speaker 2 (49:17):
Little grease ball.
Speaker 3 (49:19):
Yes, so greasy. That's cute.
Speaker 2 (49:21):
The owner was like, I'm gonna reb you in whales.
And so you're saying ibromectin people are giving it to
their pets to treat cancer. They're trying to Yeah, yeah,
it's so interesting.
Speaker 3 (49:31):
We hear it.
Speaker 2 (49:32):
Like you know, ever since COVID and now, people have
really kind of lashed onto ibmactin. We've been using it
in veterinary medicine for it ever and mainly as like
a dewarming anti parasitic situation, which we know there is
evidence that it absolutely works for that. And now it's
really being you know, people are using it or saying
that it works for cancer treatment, but there really isn't
any data behind that.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
No, And I mean, I guess you don't always have
to have data to you know, make things happen and
sell things if it sounds good and sounds very accessible, right,
but it's not the recommendation right now, and quite frankly
it's You're never gonna, as a client make me mad
with that, but I don't usually engage in that.
Speaker 2 (50:11):
Yeah, that's fair.
Speaker 3 (50:14):
Okay. Last, but not least, do not come to your
veterinarian college's office and tell me what your breeder recommended.
Speaker 2 (50:24):
Ooh, this is a hot take. I beg you, okay,
this is interesting, and I feel similarly to this in GP.
It's okay, I'll let you go first, and I'll go.
Speaker 3 (50:34):
I'll say, as I do own two purebred animals, so
this is something that is important to recognize. Breeders are
you know, they have their place and you know they
do a lot of good things, but you cannot imagine
how many people come to me and say, well, first
of all, my breeder says that she's never had this
in her line, and she wanted me to tell you
or he or she wanted me to tell you to
(50:54):
do this and this, it's really important. I think not
to do that. I think it away a little bit
from our expertise, just like I would not tell a
breeder how to breed. Yeah, I wouldn't know where to start.
Speaker 2 (51:08):
Yeah, absolutely, I think that's really interesting. I didn't realize
that they're getting involved in cancer treatment. They definitely in
general practice. Every not every time, but a lot of
times they'll come with puppies or kittens and they'll have
a sheet that and the breeder says, don't give this vaccine,
don't give that vaccine. And I'm like, wait a second,
I'm the doctor, and I know that this vaccine works,
(51:28):
and like to not give it would be honestly negligent.
But then, you know, owners are really attached to their
breeder and they've chosen their breeder, and I've done a
lot of research and I'm not saying they don't do
a good job breeding because I think a lot of
them do. But I'm like, it's not great when they're
giving us medical advice and like how to do our.
Speaker 3 (51:45):
Job exactly, especially when it comes to cancer treatment. You know,
I think steering someone away from the treatment that actually
could help their pet. Yeah, I think those are probably
the most unfortunate cases.
Speaker 2 (51:59):
Yeah, exactly. It's like just knowing where your expertise lies.
Just like me and ears, God, just like you and ears.
No ears, no poop, no, and you won't.
Speaker 3 (52:08):
Honestly, no eyes unless there's a tumor in there. I
have no idea. Please don't make me do it.
Speaker 2 (52:15):
There are interesting enough. I have diagnosed like quite a
few ocular eye tumors in my career. I feel like
people don't realize, but.
Speaker 3 (52:22):
Me, see those any body part can get cancer. This
is fact. So yes, I will look in there if
you can tell me that I'm looking for a tumor.
But if you want me to look at an ulcer,
I will be grossed out. Do you don't make me
stain that eye? Don't make me do it.
Speaker 2 (52:36):
That's so funny. Well, thank you for coming in today.
I feel like you are so passionate about this, and
it is I'm sure a really challenging career, but one
that is so necessary because it is so common and
we need more people like you that kind of help
us as pet owners get through these difficult situations with
our animals. And I'm sure people are listening today, probably
(52:58):
like if they've ever had You'm an oncollegists that are like, gosh,
I wish they were like you because you do such
a great job of it. So oh so thank you
for coming. If people want to find you, where do
they go about finding you?
Speaker 3 (53:12):
Well, I'm currently practicing in Northern Virginia, Okay, DC area,
DC area, and I'm actually super happy in that area.
I've got a family there and my two crazy pets.
But you can find me on Instagram and I'm actually
working on a new account.
Speaker 2 (53:30):
So that's right, you are. Can we talk about what
you're working on?
Speaker 3 (53:33):
This is like very very very new. So what I
would say is, I'm, with the help of my sister
in a really really near and dear friend, Kate, we
are going to try to do a e guide book
to help people who have pets that have been diagnosed
with cancer.
Speaker 2 (53:51):
Yeah, it's like your pet has cancer, now what? So
I feel like that will be a really great resource
that owners don't have currently and we'll really enjoy having.
So I guess everyone stay tuned for that. As it
comes out, I'll give you more information and as always,
please be sure to rate, review, subscribe, give us five stars,
let us know what you think. You can always send
(54:12):
me any questions, any follow up questions you have for Daniella,
Doctor Daniella at doctor Josivett on Instagram and TikTok. I
just had a TikTok video go to three point five
million views this week. I know what Actually, I watch
all your sor it's a cat with an emotional support
bikini talk yeah, or the bro. Yeah, his name's Cheddar
(54:33):
and he brings his emotional support me everywhere with him.
So yeah, I've made it pretty big. But also respond
to you on social media and we will be back
next week. Thank you for listening and we'll talk to
you soon
Host
Josie Horchak
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