November 21, 2023 • 30 mins
A little over a year from the first episode of In Trust has passed. Hosts Rachel Adams-Heard and Allison Herrera return to Osage County to discuss the reporting and story with members of the community. We’ll share highlights from the panel, moderated by Shannon Shaw Duty of the Osage News, and talk about Allison’s recent reporting from the premiere of “Killers of the Flower Moon” in Cannes. Learn more and see bonus material from the episode: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2023-11-21/in-trust-episode-11-discussing-the-impact-of-killers-of-the-flower-moon
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hi there, it's Rachel Adams Hurd, the host of Intrust.
It's been over a year since we put the first
episode of this podcast out, and a lot has happened since.
As I record this bonus episode, Killers of the Flower
Moon is playing in theaters, the Oceage Minerals Council is
working on federal legislation to make it easier for people
to return head rights, and the Osage community is grappling
(00:30):
with what all this attention means for them. You probably
remember Alison Erera, who helped with the reporting for this
series and hosted the last two episodes of Interrust. We
wanted to do something a little bit different today and
talk a bit more casually about an opportunity we had
recently to visit Osh County and talk about some of
the things we uncovered through our reporting. So, without further ado,
(00:53):
welcome back, Alison.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hi, Rachel, it's been a minute.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, So Allison, maybe you can explain why we were
in PAHUSCA at the end of October.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
So Shannon shaw Duty, who's the editor of o Sage
News and Oceage News is the main news outlet that
covers the Osage nation. They cover everything from cultural events
to you know, holding elected officials accountable. O. Sh News
had you know, been printing episodes of Interust you know,
(01:23):
in the paper for citizens, and there's just been an
enormous amount of interest. And so Shannon had heard from
people that they'd like to, you know, to talk a
little bit, go a little bit more in depth about
the podcast. So she came up with the idea of
hosting this public forum. So she reached out to you
in Bloomberg and myself at KOSU in Oklahoma City, and
(01:47):
we held this public forum there in BAHUSCA.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
And when Shannon first reached out, I was thinking we
were talking like a couple dozen people in a room
or something.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it was way way more than.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So Allison and I got to the community center and
they were like over thirty tables set up. It was
just kind of wild to see.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
How many did we end up having. I remember Shannon
gave us a final count.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I think it was over like two hundred people who
showed up.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
And that's a that was on a really lovely Sunday
afternoon and in the middle of football season, which is
a pretty big deal. So I just want to set
the scene for you We were at this place called
Wake and Iron Hall, and that was right across the
block from the arbor where the ocah Hold of the
Pahaska District holds there annual in Launchka dances. And so
(02:40):
it was a panel event and it was myself, you,
Tara Damren from episodes one and two, John Maker from
episodes three and five, and Brian Hosmer who was that
he's the head of the history department at Oklahoma State University,
and Shannon Shaw do you moderated the conversation? And you know,
(03:03):
I've actually done a couple of these events before, and
so I'm just curious, like, since this was your first one,
what really stood out to you about this conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I was just really blown away by the interest and engagement.
I mean, almost everyone stayed until the end and asked
these really insightful questions. We're actually going to play a
few clips from the event, but one moment that really
stood out to me was when Tara Damren encouraged people
to do this type of research on their own families.
(03:32):
And just a reminder, Tara is one of the plaintiffs
in that lawsuit over the US government's management of the
Osage mineral estate. But she's also the director of the
white Hair Memorial, so she has this super deep knowledge
of the types of resources that are out there. So
here's her talking about that.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
The white Hair Memorial is the home of Lili Narilmberkhart.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
She's just a full leto Sage. Born in nineteen oh seven.
Speaker 6 (03:55):
She passed away in.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Nineteen sixty seven. She left her home and entrust her home,
her head, rids, the land, and.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
All her belongings in a trust the Okahoma.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Historical Society number one that we admired to our ancestor
white Hair.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Right, she left it for the O stages and she
left it for.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
The general public.
Speaker 7 (04:17):
She was very much an advocate banking education, she was a.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Historian, She was a visionary right and part of that
I seek to Billy Wonker, who's as her greadies and
a director for eighteen and a half years along with
doctor Swan. The mission of what we try to do
is to share that right. So we have her O
Sage ethnographic material, and we have the Burns Research Library,
(04:44):
We have the land Sharrison genealogy question our collection sorry,
in addition to photographs and manage its newspapers we are
part of the Oklahoma Historical Society.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
The Stage National records.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Are located in or they're located.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
In the National Archives.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Those records are public records. Anyone can go down and
visit and make an appointment.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
You can email them.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
They will stand those records if you want to know
something about your ancestor. We do a lot of that.
As far as helping people, I enjoy that. Our staff
enjoys that. And I learned so much from patrons calling
me and sharing their family stories.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Because of the podcast, because of the book.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
And Allison, you were talking to Tara a lot recently
for a series you did about Lily Morrel Burkhart. Can
you talk about your reporting on her and maybe just
start with who Lily was?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, Lily Morel Burkhart A Contrary to what people think,
she is not related to Molly Burkhart or any of
the Kyle sisters. She's a Morel. She comes from the
Morel family line. She was a wealthy o Sage woman
born in nineteen oh seven, just one year after the
O Sage eletment passed. She lived between Ralston and Hamani
(06:07):
in Osage County, and she was an original A Latti
She had more than two head rights, one of her
own and another that she inherited from her family member.
And she was just this amazing person. You know, she
was really ahead of her time. She was one of
the first women to be on the O Sage Tribal
Council in the forties and fifties. She spoke fluent O Sage.
(06:31):
Her O Sage name is jah Meet Sahi. And she
also served as the ambassador to Oklahoma in nineteen fifty
eight during the World's Fair and Brussels. And she had
this really you know, kind of tidy country home that
was lavishly decorated inside with furnishings that she would bring
back from her trips to Europe. You know, she had
(06:52):
not only you know, did she travel Europe, but she
went to Hawaii, she went to I found her name
on a passenger list going to Alexandria in Egypt. And
this was at a time when it was difficult to travel.
You had to have money to do these things, and
Lily had money.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
To do it.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
And so she would see things from her travels and
she would just order them and have them brought back
on the train to Fairfax and take into her home.
In fact, her great niece who I also spoke with
Billy Ponka, who you heard from, and I think it's
episode four destrive it as a dripping in silver. She
died of natural causes in nineteen sixty seven. But one thing,
(07:30):
you know, Lily married Byron Burkhardt, who was implicated in
the murder of Anna Brown, and when she passed away,
she left her house, her some of her belongings in
her land, and head rights to the Oklahoma Historical Society,
I think, much to the chagrin of her nieces and
nephews and Byron Burkhardt. You know, she wanted to protect
(07:54):
her estate from from the Osage County courts. But Byron
was able to prove that he was Lily's common law
a husband even after she had divorced him, and he
was able to collect a salary from her estate. He
was paid insurance money from a fire that happened after
she passed away, and the state even paid him for
(08:16):
these Oceage material cultural belongings that Lily had, which was
about twenty thousand dollars in the late nineteen sixties, which
I'm not sure what that is, justed for inflation is but.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
A lot of money, a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, But so she left her house to the Oklahoma
Historical Society because what she wanted to do was she
wanted it to be a shrine to her ancestor, Chief
White Hair Pahuska. And she ultimately, you know, she wanted
to combat these negative stereotypes that she saw about Native
women and she wanted them to see how pop this
wealthy O Sage person like herself lived. And so you
(08:51):
know what ended up happening was, you know, after a
lengthy court battle, her house eventually was turned over to
the Oklahoma Historical Society and uh and it was you know,
they held like some of the early language and culture
classes happened there. And you know, now it's a research center,
which you've bet you did a lot of research there
for for the podcast. It's got all these genealogical records
(09:15):
and it's just got like it's it's Lily's her legacy.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
And recently the Oklahoma.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Historical Society wanted and made this announcement earlier in September
of this year.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
That they wanted to turn over the.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Head rights back to the O Sage Nation and and
that would by the outset like that's a really good thing,
but there's been some controversy because some shareholders don't want
the O Sage Nation to have that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And Billy Billy Poka, Lily's closest.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Relatives, said, you know, her estate was meant to be
enjoyed by all O Sages, not just a few people.
So she's a little bit ambivalent about what OHS wants
to do. And I think you know that leads into
something that was discussed at the at the public forum,
which is a bill that Congressman Frank Lucas of Oklahoma
(10:05):
is you know, trying to get passed to make it
easier for non O Sage head right holders to return
head rights. And so right now the hold up is
with the O Sage and Mineralist Council, that's the body
that governs the head rights. Everett Waller, he was in
the audience and he's the chairman of the Midderal's Council,
and he was at the public Forum and he gave
(10:28):
us an update about that legislation.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
We all know.
Speaker 8 (10:37):
Thank you to tell.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
That.
Speaker 9 (10:40):
You can also tell by the graph we're th st
we've been waiting on some we've been waiting on the
return to the head right to the serv that is
that process is kind of grout zem count and here spinger,
but they can tell us that's the first transition that's
they ever come back.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
You go.
Speaker 9 (11:02):
Secondly, we're going to have the track out out there, these.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
Other hand rights you're looking at.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And I remember also, as you can tell, it's a
little hard to hear of it. He was in the audience,
so he was a mic. But essentially what he's saying
is that there are a lot of logistics the OSAG
nation needs to figure out when it comes to how
this process would work in practice should the legislation get passed.
And so these are all conversations taking place now to
(11:31):
decide all that.
Speaker 8 (11:33):
The return of it with the process is why am
I going to have the state or the federal government
tell me I take this hand right back. I'm chairman
of the O says they're not, and you've booked me here.
And I don't sleep well as much because I want
to give my kids something that I didn't have. And
(11:53):
I come from every leadership for the last ten thousand years,
and I'm going to tell you right, Audig Price a
gm common he writes your kids that with the line
in that movie is will be montage or want stale or.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So if you've seen Killers of the Fire Moon, you
may recognize Everett Waller's voice. He plays Paul red Eagle,
an o Sh tribal council member during the murders, and
the movie briefly touches on some of the things we
talked about in the podcast, the osage, price, guardianships, competency laws.
And I thought another moment from the panel that really
(12:33):
stood out was when Brian Hosmer, the history professor, offered
just this really concise summary of how all this contributed
to this huge transfer of wealth. So you'll hear, you'll
hear Shannon, and then you'll hear his answer.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
One thing just loot was the settlement how to spin
the broader context of how we can see.
Speaker 10 (13:00):
When they get fundamental to it. And I think that
highlights an essential conflict and continition at the heart of
federal Indian policy a lot. And you're looking on through
over the most stay and when one of these precorded
goals was to create suspicions individualized Indian egal right and
(13:23):
dismantle the other half of it was to set of
the relationship legal anabolical relationship between indigenous duties and their resources.
And these two pieces are acting at the same time
and in some kind of uneasy amounts. So in the
eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, and discourse tended to be
(13:46):
mostly un cultural change, assimilation.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
And things like that.
Speaker 10 (13:52):
When we moved into the early twentieth century, if not
the discourse, the effect of Indian policy moves far more
through this second.
Speaker 11 (14:03):
Aspect of it, which is severing the Indian issues from
their resources. So that to get back to your question,
that affects directly the way along the state.
Speaker 10 (14:14):
It operates in the open air land where non a
settlers and open supper land. In other words, you've got
surplus land, other kinds of means of extinguishing private title land.
Speaker 12 (14:27):
And then you have resources that are generated.
Speaker 10 (14:30):
Through the exchange and sale of those researchers that tend
to cycle map to the stake to nine indianstry promoth
a kind of settlement that was taking place, or of
the appropriation of the Indian land. One way to look
at it, kind of simplicit was as a consequence of
(14:50):
the shift from you might say kind of individualistic sort
of uplift mentality a speak clear, I'm using the terms
those days, not something that's the true right concepts for me.
So for the shift to that toward land right, you
have right up a found change in the way that
(15:12):
this works.
Speaker 6 (15:12):
And so in.
Speaker 10 (15:13):
Effect through a lot of indianations were financing.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
Their own dislusion right.
Speaker 10 (15:22):
And so the process of export meeting land and using
those resources to promote settlement in the communities that were
occupied by non natives was painful.
Speaker 13 (15:34):
By the nations for the sus And so this is
right that the mendment is that I will say that
this relationship between tribal resources and settlement of those same
areas by one Indians, that relationship was not unknown to.
Speaker 14 (15:56):
Or the series to either policymakers or more directly local
concerns as ALCID measurement. There is throughout this period of
time in tens logging taking place in Oklahoma, in South Dakota,
and Wyoming in Minnesota, in tens logging that's designed to
(16:18):
shift Indian policy toward this extraordriation of property, the shifting
of land and resources from indigious studies at the.
Speaker 10 (16:29):
Same time that the tribe the nation is being underwined.
Speaker 12 (16:34):
So this is a combination of things, And to another
one of Alison's points, it was nineteen twelve when Congress specifically.
Speaker 10 (16:47):
Authorized the shifting of competency ears to say probate course,
and it was done specifically at the request and of
economic and political interest non indist love to move those
(17:09):
years out of the anterior into local programs.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
So, since we're talking about the movie, both you and
Shannon saw it and can before everyone else in France,
and that was such a unique experience.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
You just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Everett Waller played Paul red Eagle in the movie, and
I'll just never forget, you know, seeing this person who
I've interviewed, who you've interviewed.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Just steal the show, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I mean, his performance was so amazing and he told
me that it was just really off the cuff, you know,
he didn't really have a script, and that sco says
he just really liked the way he talked and just
asked him to keep going.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
That experience.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I don't even know what to say. It was one
of the highlights of my reporting career at KOSU. It
was just moving to see to be in that theater
and see.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
That nine minute standing ovation.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
At the end of the movie. To see Lily Gladstone
in the audience and and meet her, and I got
to talk to Scorsese as well about, you know, some
of the things that got brought up during in the movie.
And you know, you know, it was also this glamorous event.
You know, everybody got all dressed up, and it was
just fantastic to see people in their regalia, in their
(18:26):
traditional dress, like walking down the red carpet. But then
you know, all these people here to see this, to
watch this history for any of you who've seen the movie,
a history that was supposed to be forgotten and here
it was getting this incredibly like, you know, powerful worldwide spotlight,
and I just I'll never forget it.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
You asked Shannon.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Shaw Duty of the O Sage News, you know about
her reporting and and I thought her answer was pretty interesting.
Speaker 7 (18:56):
Excitedly, with all the press on the ascation surrounding the
movie released, I would just love to hear your thoughts
on on phitfalls of Mainshabdia reporting on both historically but
also today, and how it would do better.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
I think that the answer to that is evolving.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
We've already seen some press tend and I am been
contacted by snooze outlets that in my opinion, they wanted
to focus on native things about uh statements of goods,
other views try to reaching other outlets. They wanted me
(19:40):
to write an off ed focusing on.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
This negative thing and this negative thing it all.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
Goes into sensationalizing.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
The story right now, and I chose not to, not
putting my head in the sand.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
It's just that, in my opinion, for news coverage about
this very sensitive topic, there's so many assets that are
going to affect everyone. And I don't know has ever
had how many people just send.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Okay, so most of you. It all affected us in
different ways. Correct. I know I was a great law
of allers wars, but knowing that the heaviness of it,
(20:44):
I just urged sharted when when reading an article, I
like what Wilson to take great care with your words
and with how.
Speaker 6 (20:59):
Your song to this film, because the filmmakers did send
a lot of time.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
With the Burkhart descendants, with the Great christ community, where
the story was, where the story originated, the one that
Grant is focusing on focused on. So whenever I don't
know's it's.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
I think it's too soon to tell what the media
the outside mainstream media is going to do with the
story because.
Speaker 15 (21:36):
It's only been out a couple of days. But I
know that I whatever it is, I can't anticipate it.
It's all it's all very new to us. Even though
we have been in the.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
News before during for the Reign of Terror, We've never
experienced this kind of fame and a mile of time.
So I think it's all going to it's gonna be
a long time to a perspective on exactly what is
going to happen in terms of our communities actor everything.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
Is, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
I think that really speaks to making sure people who
are affected by your reporting feel part part of the process.
And John Maker spoke a little bit of that when
Shannon asked him what it was like finding out all
this information about his family that you that you brought
to him. And I just thought that was so moving,
Like even though we had heard him on the podcast
talking about them, talking about that, you know, there he
(22:36):
was like retelling this story and it was if people
who had i know, listened to the podcast like it
was as it was, if it was as if like
they had heard it for the first time ever.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Die those documents.
Speaker 16 (22:50):
Family, Okay, yeah, well, person to go back a little
bit further, uh to get to that that question.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Uh, that goes back to when.
Speaker 16 (23:07):
Rachel first called me on the phone when this all
the game was me with my part of it, and
I got a call from her and.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
And I called her back.
Speaker 16 (23:21):
She left me a message on the phone and asked
me if by my great grandmother was uh way? Who
saw that that was her old say name. She didn't
have an English name, and uh so that really got
my interest up, of course, and then I called her back.
(23:41):
I said, yes, that was my great grandmother and she said, well,
I'll identify herself and said, I'm working on this, uh
this research about the h the wealth of the O
Satan nations and then how the wealth transferred out of
our hands into others. So we met here in town
(24:03):
into bubblo of Jill's restaurant. I said, all, let's be
down there and we'll talk about it. And that's when
heard her producer was there. And I met her there
and she had some of these court record documents about
my grandmother's estate, and she said, have you ever have
(24:23):
you ever seen these or heard about this? I got no,
but this is definitely my grandmother.
Speaker 6 (24:30):
And she was.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
One of the.
Speaker 16 (24:37):
She was her, she had a guardian over her, who
was I guess I'll go over and said the old man,
mister Drummond. And she had a list of old sages
who he had guardianship over, and my great grandmother was
(24:58):
one of them. And I found out later I had
actually three other of my relatives. It was on that list,
and of course I was like wow, shocked by it.
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Some of the most interesting conversations took place after the event, too.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, I mean, that was probably one of the coolest parts,
was just to talk to all these folks that I
hadn't gotten a chance to speak with during the main
reporting of the story. So once we wrapped up, people
were kind of coming up and introducing themselves and sharing
photos and stories. And there was this group of probably
six or seven people, and they told me they were
the descendants of Rhoda Wheeler Ridge, And it was really
(25:41):
just this really moving experience to see and talk with
the relatives of this woman I had spent so much
of my last year reading and learning and thinking about.
And if you don't remember, Roda was the woman who
hired a lawyer and divorced the brother of Jack Drummond's driver,
who was also her step five. She said the two
(26:02):
Pope brothers had coerced her into marrying him in order
to take her money. And while they were, you know,
forcibly keeping her in Colorado, her mother died and ov
Pope inherited her head rights and later sold them, and
so Rhoda really fought to get out from under them
in order to protect herself from her children. So to
see future generations at an event like that was just
(26:23):
such a unique experience. And one of her descendants as
an artist, and she actually made a painting that depicts
Roda's experience called The Sun through the Darkness, and it's
on display in Chicago right now, So if you're in
the Chicago area, you should definitely check it out because
it's just it's just incredibly moving.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I know, I love the title of that work, and
you're right, it is really moving. I hope people check
it out.
Speaker 16 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And then not long after that, someone else came up
to us and mentioned that he was really interested in
helping folks who had osage head rights uh and who
were non oce age and wanted to transfer them back
to the O Sage Nation, so you know, my curiosity
was definitely peaked. And then he hands me his card
(27:10):
and he's actually with the O Sage Agency at the
Department of Interior, and so he said that he can't,
you know, make any promises, but that he wanted to
start looking into it. And I ended up, you know,
with his permission, sharing his information with someone who had
previously told me they were trying to return their head
right share to the tribe. So it'll definitely be interesting
(27:31):
to see to see what comes with that.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, I'm definitely going to be keeping tabs on these efforts,
you know, especially since it seems like after now, after
the movie has come out, the National Archives and Records
Association has been digitizing some of these, you know, some
of this research that David Grant did for the book,
including that list of guardianships. So I think that there's
(27:54):
just a there's going to be a lot of interest
in that for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Any final thoughts, Allison, I.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Guess I'm just finished by saying that this panel highlighted
why engaging Native people in Native stories is so important.
You know, I report on Indigenous affairs, and a common
theme I hear a lot from Native people so often
like it's like the news is happening to them without
involving them, and the result can be really harmful. So
(28:23):
I think the fact that we, you know, we listened
and we held this public forum for people as a
way to kind of lift back the curtain and the
reporting process, and it just speaks to the power I
think of journalism and how it can be a transformative
tool for people not only to learn about, you know,
things that are you know, in their community, but things
(28:46):
that affect their lives. It's not that non native people
can't tell Native stories, it's just that you need to
do You need to be present, and you need to listen.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And I think that you have done that in spades.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Thank you, Allison, and I guess that is it for us.
This has been an experience of a lifetime and we're
just really grateful for everyone who listened to this story.
So on behalf of me and Alison and the rest
of the Intrust team. Thank you. This episode was recorded
(29:26):
and edited by Margaret Sutherland and produced by Magnus Henrikson.
Special thanks to Shannon Shaw Duty and The Osage News,
as well as Verified News Network and KOSU for organizing
and co sponsoring the Intrust panel event. Additional thanks to
Jeff Grocott. Be sure to check out our episode notes
online for photos, maps, and more at bloomberg dot com.
(29:48):
Slash Interest photography by Shane Brown, additional art by Cynthia Hoffman,
Jacqueline Kessler, and Ariel Brown. Music by Laura Orman. Sage
Bauman is Bloomberg's head past
Hi there, it's Rachel Adams Hurd, the host of Intrust.
It's been over a year since we put the first
episode of this podcast out, and a lot has happened since.
As I record this bonus episode, Killers of the Flower
Moon is playing in theaters, the Oceage Minerals Council is
working on federal legislation to make it easier for people
to return head rights, and the Osage community is grappling
(00:30):
with what all this attention means for them. You probably
remember Alison Erera, who helped with the reporting for this
series and hosted the last two episodes of Interrust. We
wanted to do something a little bit different today and
talk a bit more casually about an opportunity we had
recently to visit Osh County and talk about some of
the things we uncovered through our reporting. So, without further ado,
(00:53):
welcome back, Alison.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Hi, Rachel, it's been a minute.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
Yeah, So Allison, maybe you can explain why we were
in PAHUSCA at the end of October.
Speaker 3 (01:02):
So Shannon shaw Duty, who's the editor of o Sage
News and Oceage News is the main news outlet that
covers the Osage nation. They cover everything from cultural events
to you know, holding elected officials accountable. O. Sh News
had you know, been printing episodes of Interust you know,
(01:23):
in the paper for citizens, and there's just been an
enormous amount of interest. And so Shannon had heard from
people that they'd like to, you know, to talk a
little bit, go a little bit more in depth about
the podcast. So she came up with the idea of
hosting this public forum. So she reached out to you
in Bloomberg and myself at KOSU in Oklahoma City, and
(01:47):
we held this public forum there in BAHUSCA.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
And when Shannon first reached out, I was thinking we
were talking like a couple dozen people in a room
or something.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Yeah, it was way way more than.
Speaker 1 (02:00):
So Allison and I got to the community center and
they were like over thirty tables set up. It was
just kind of wild to see.
Speaker 3 (02:07):
How many did we end up having. I remember Shannon
gave us a final count.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
I think it was over like two hundred people who
showed up.
Speaker 2 (02:15):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (02:16):
And that's a that was on a really lovely Sunday
afternoon and in the middle of football season, which is
a pretty big deal. So I just want to set
the scene for you We were at this place called
Wake and Iron Hall, and that was right across the
block from the arbor where the ocah Hold of the
Pahaska District holds there annual in Launchka dances. And so
(02:40):
it was a panel event and it was myself, you,
Tara Damren from episodes one and two, John Maker from
episodes three and five, and Brian Hosmer who was that
he's the head of the history department at Oklahoma State University,
and Shannon Shaw do you moderated the conversation? And you know,
(03:03):
I've actually done a couple of these events before, and
so I'm just curious, like, since this was your first one,
what really stood out to you about this conversation.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
I was just really blown away by the interest and engagement.
I mean, almost everyone stayed until the end and asked
these really insightful questions. We're actually going to play a
few clips from the event, but one moment that really
stood out to me was when Tara Damren encouraged people
to do this type of research on their own families.
(03:32):
And just a reminder, Tara is one of the plaintiffs
in that lawsuit over the US government's management of the
Osage mineral estate. But she's also the director of the
white Hair Memorial, so she has this super deep knowledge
of the types of resources that are out there. So
here's her talking about that.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
The white Hair Memorial is the home of Lili Narilmberkhart.
Speaker 5 (03:52):
She's just a full leto Sage. Born in nineteen oh seven.
Speaker 6 (03:55):
She passed away in.
Speaker 4 (03:56):
Nineteen sixty seven. She left her home and entrust her home,
her head, rids, the land, and.
Speaker 6 (04:04):
All her belongings in a trust the Okahoma.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
Historical Society number one that we admired to our ancestor
white Hair.
Speaker 5 (04:12):
Right, she left it for the O stages and she
left it for.
Speaker 6 (04:15):
The general public.
Speaker 7 (04:17):
She was very much an advocate banking education, she was a.
Speaker 4 (04:21):
Historian, She was a visionary right and part of that
I seek to Billy Wonker, who's as her greadies and
a director for eighteen and a half years along with
doctor Swan. The mission of what we try to do
is to share that right. So we have her O
Sage ethnographic material, and we have the Burns Research Library,
(04:44):
We have the land Sharrison genealogy question our collection sorry,
in addition to photographs and manage its newspapers we are
part of the Oklahoma Historical Society.
Speaker 5 (04:56):
The Stage National records.
Speaker 4 (04:59):
Are located in or they're located.
Speaker 5 (05:01):
In the National Archives.
Speaker 4 (05:03):
Those records are public records. Anyone can go down and
visit and make an appointment.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
You can email them.
Speaker 4 (05:09):
They will stand those records if you want to know
something about your ancestor. We do a lot of that.
As far as helping people, I enjoy that. Our staff
enjoys that. And I learned so much from patrons calling
me and sharing their family stories.
Speaker 5 (05:29):
Because of the podcast, because of the book.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
And Allison, you were talking to Tara a lot recently
for a series you did about Lily Morrel Burkhart. Can
you talk about your reporting on her and maybe just
start with who Lily was?
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Well, Lily Morel Burkhart A Contrary to what people think,
she is not related to Molly Burkhart or any of
the Kyle sisters. She's a Morel. She comes from the
Morel family line. She was a wealthy o Sage woman
born in nineteen oh seven, just one year after the
O Sage eletment passed. She lived between Ralston and Hamani
(06:07):
in Osage County, and she was an original A Latti
She had more than two head rights, one of her
own and another that she inherited from her family member.
And she was just this amazing person. You know, she
was really ahead of her time. She was one of
the first women to be on the O Sage Tribal
Council in the forties and fifties. She spoke fluent O Sage.
(06:31):
Her O Sage name is jah Meet Sahi. And she
also served as the ambassador to Oklahoma in nineteen fifty
eight during the World's Fair and Brussels. And she had
this really you know, kind of tidy country home that
was lavishly decorated inside with furnishings that she would bring
back from her trips to Europe. You know, she had
(06:52):
not only you know, did she travel Europe, but she
went to Hawaii, she went to I found her name
on a passenger list going to Alexandria in Egypt. And
this was at a time when it was difficult to travel.
You had to have money to do these things, and
Lily had money.
Speaker 2 (07:08):
To do it.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
And so she would see things from her travels and
she would just order them and have them brought back
on the train to Fairfax and take into her home.
In fact, her great niece who I also spoke with
Billy Ponka, who you heard from, and I think it's
episode four destrive it as a dripping in silver. She
died of natural causes in nineteen sixty seven. But one thing,
(07:30):
you know, Lily married Byron Burkhardt, who was implicated in
the murder of Anna Brown, and when she passed away,
she left her house, her some of her belongings in
her land, and head rights to the Oklahoma Historical Society,
I think, much to the chagrin of her nieces and
nephews and Byron Burkhardt. You know, she wanted to protect
(07:54):
her estate from from the Osage County courts. But Byron
was able to prove that he was Lily's common law
a husband even after she had divorced him, and he
was able to collect a salary from her estate. He
was paid insurance money from a fire that happened after
she passed away, and the state even paid him for
(08:16):
these Oceage material cultural belongings that Lily had, which was
about twenty thousand dollars in the late nineteen sixties, which
I'm not sure what that is, justed for inflation is but.
Speaker 1 (08:27):
A lot of money, a lot of money.
Speaker 3 (08:29):
Yeah, But so she left her house to the Oklahoma
Historical Society because what she wanted to do was she
wanted it to be a shrine to her ancestor, Chief
White Hair Pahuska. And she ultimately, you know, she wanted
to combat these negative stereotypes that she saw about Native
women and she wanted them to see how pop this
wealthy O Sage person like herself lived. And so you
(08:51):
know what ended up happening was, you know, after a
lengthy court battle, her house eventually was turned over to
the Oklahoma Historical Society and uh and it was you know,
they held like some of the early language and culture
classes happened there. And you know, now it's a research center,
which you've bet you did a lot of research there
for for the podcast. It's got all these genealogical records
(09:15):
and it's just got like it's it's Lily's her legacy.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
And recently the Oklahoma.
Speaker 3 (09:23):
Historical Society wanted and made this announcement earlier in September
of this year.
Speaker 2 (09:28):
That they wanted to turn over the.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
Head rights back to the O Sage Nation and and
that would by the outset like that's a really good thing,
but there's been some controversy because some shareholders don't want
the O Sage Nation to have that.
Speaker 2 (09:41):
And Billy Billy Poka, Lily's closest.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Relatives, said, you know, her estate was meant to be
enjoyed by all O Sages, not just a few people.
So she's a little bit ambivalent about what OHS wants
to do. And I think you know that leads into
something that was discussed at the at the public forum,
which is a bill that Congressman Frank Lucas of Oklahoma
(10:05):
is you know, trying to get passed to make it
easier for non O Sage head right holders to return
head rights. And so right now the hold up is
with the O Sage and Mineralist Council, that's the body
that governs the head rights. Everett Waller, he was in
the audience and he's the chairman of the Midderal's Council,
and he was at the public Forum and he gave
(10:28):
us an update about that legislation.
Speaker 5 (10:32):
We all know.
Speaker 8 (10:37):
Thank you to tell.
Speaker 2 (10:40):
That.
Speaker 9 (10:40):
You can also tell by the graph we're th st
we've been waiting on some we've been waiting on the
return to the head right to the serv that is
that process is kind of grout zem count and here spinger,
but they can tell us that's the first transition that's
they ever come back.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
You go.
Speaker 9 (11:02):
Secondly, we're going to have the track out out there, these.
Speaker 5 (11:07):
Other hand rights you're looking at.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
And I remember also, as you can tell, it's a
little hard to hear of it. He was in the audience,
so he was a mic. But essentially what he's saying
is that there are a lot of logistics the OSAG
nation needs to figure out when it comes to how
this process would work in practice should the legislation get passed.
And so these are all conversations taking place now to
(11:31):
decide all that.
Speaker 8 (11:33):
The return of it with the process is why am
I going to have the state or the federal government
tell me I take this hand right back. I'm chairman
of the O says they're not, and you've booked me here.
And I don't sleep well as much because I want
to give my kids something that I didn't have. And
(11:53):
I come from every leadership for the last ten thousand years,
and I'm going to tell you right, Audig Price a
gm common he writes your kids that with the line
in that movie is will be montage or want stale or.
Speaker 1 (12:12):
So if you've seen Killers of the Fire Moon, you
may recognize Everett Waller's voice. He plays Paul red Eagle,
an o Sh tribal council member during the murders, and
the movie briefly touches on some of the things we
talked about in the podcast, the osage, price, guardianships, competency laws.
And I thought another moment from the panel that really
(12:33):
stood out was when Brian Hosmer, the history professor, offered
just this really concise summary of how all this contributed
to this huge transfer of wealth. So you'll hear, you'll
hear Shannon, and then you'll hear his answer.
Speaker 5 (12:48):
One thing just loot was the settlement how to spin
the broader context of how we can see.
Speaker 10 (13:00):
When they get fundamental to it. And I think that
highlights an essential conflict and continition at the heart of
federal Indian policy a lot. And you're looking on through
over the most stay and when one of these precorded
goals was to create suspicions individualized Indian egal right and
(13:23):
dismantle the other half of it was to set of
the relationship legal anabolical relationship between indigenous duties and their resources.
And these two pieces are acting at the same time
and in some kind of uneasy amounts. So in the
eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, and discourse tended to be
(13:46):
mostly un cultural change, assimilation.
Speaker 8 (13:50):
And things like that.
Speaker 10 (13:52):
When we moved into the early twentieth century, if not
the discourse, the effect of Indian policy moves far more
through this second.
Speaker 11 (14:03):
Aspect of it, which is severing the Indian issues from
their resources. So that to get back to your question,
that affects directly the way along the state.
Speaker 10 (14:14):
It operates in the open air land where non a
settlers and open supper land. In other words, you've got
surplus land, other kinds of means of extinguishing private title land.
Speaker 12 (14:27):
And then you have resources that are generated.
Speaker 10 (14:30):
Through the exchange and sale of those researchers that tend
to cycle map to the stake to nine indianstry promoth
a kind of settlement that was taking place, or of
the appropriation of the Indian land. One way to look
at it, kind of simplicit was as a consequence of
(14:50):
the shift from you might say kind of individualistic sort
of uplift mentality a speak clear, I'm using the terms
those days, not something that's the true right concepts for me.
So for the shift to that toward land right, you
have right up a found change in the way that
(15:12):
this works.
Speaker 6 (15:12):
And so in.
Speaker 10 (15:13):
Effect through a lot of indianations were financing.
Speaker 5 (15:19):
Their own dislusion right.
Speaker 10 (15:22):
And so the process of export meeting land and using
those resources to promote settlement in the communities that were
occupied by non natives was painful.
Speaker 13 (15:34):
By the nations for the sus And so this is
right that the mendment is that I will say that
this relationship between tribal resources and settlement of those same
areas by one Indians, that relationship was not unknown to.
Speaker 14 (15:56):
Or the series to either policymakers or more directly local
concerns as ALCID measurement. There is throughout this period of
time in tens logging taking place in Oklahoma, in South Dakota,
and Wyoming in Minnesota, in tens logging that's designed to
(16:18):
shift Indian policy toward this extraordriation of property, the shifting
of land and resources from indigious studies at the.
Speaker 10 (16:29):
Same time that the tribe the nation is being underwined.
Speaker 12 (16:34):
So this is a combination of things, And to another
one of Alison's points, it was nineteen twelve when Congress specifically.
Speaker 10 (16:47):
Authorized the shifting of competency ears to say probate course,
and it was done specifically at the request and of
economic and political interest non indist love to move those
(17:09):
years out of the anterior into local programs.
Speaker 1 (17:15):
So, since we're talking about the movie, both you and
Shannon saw it and can before everyone else in France,
and that was such a unique experience.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
You just mentioned.
Speaker 3 (17:26):
Everett Waller played Paul red Eagle in the movie, and
I'll just never forget, you know, seeing this person who
I've interviewed, who you've interviewed.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
Just steal the show, you know.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
I mean, his performance was so amazing and he told
me that it was just really off the cuff, you know,
he didn't really have a script, and that sco says
he just really liked the way he talked and just
asked him to keep going.
Speaker 2 (17:52):
That experience.
Speaker 3 (17:53):
I don't even know what to say. It was one
of the highlights of my reporting career at KOSU. It
was just moving to see to be in that theater
and see.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
That nine minute standing ovation.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
At the end of the movie. To see Lily Gladstone
in the audience and and meet her, and I got
to talk to Scorsese as well about, you know, some
of the things that got brought up during in the movie.
And you know, you know, it was also this glamorous event.
You know, everybody got all dressed up, and it was
just fantastic to see people in their regalia, in their
(18:26):
traditional dress, like walking down the red carpet. But then
you know, all these people here to see this, to
watch this history for any of you who've seen the movie,
a history that was supposed to be forgotten and here
it was getting this incredibly like, you know, powerful worldwide spotlight,
and I just I'll never forget it.
Speaker 2 (18:47):
You asked Shannon.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Shaw Duty of the O Sage News, you know about
her reporting and and I thought her answer was pretty interesting.
Speaker 7 (18:56):
Excitedly, with all the press on the ascation surrounding the
movie released, I would just love to hear your thoughts
on on phitfalls of Mainshabdia reporting on both historically but
also today, and how it would do better.
Speaker 5 (19:14):
I think that the answer to that is evolving.
Speaker 6 (19:19):
We've already seen some press tend and I am been
contacted by snooze outlets that in my opinion, they wanted
to focus on native things about uh statements of goods,
other views try to reaching other outlets. They wanted me
(19:40):
to write an off ed focusing on.
Speaker 5 (19:43):
This negative thing and this negative thing it all.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
Goes into sensationalizing.
Speaker 5 (19:49):
The story right now, and I chose not to, not
putting my head in the sand.
Speaker 6 (20:00):
It's just that, in my opinion, for news coverage about
this very sensitive topic, there's so many assets that are
going to affect everyone. And I don't know has ever
had how many people just send.
Speaker 5 (20:19):
Okay, so most of you. It all affected us in
different ways. Correct. I know I was a great law
of allers wars, but knowing that the heaviness of it,
(20:44):
I just urged sharted when when reading an article, I
like what Wilson to take great care with your words
and with how.
Speaker 6 (20:59):
Your song to this film, because the filmmakers did send
a lot of time.
Speaker 5 (21:06):
With the Burkhart descendants, with the Great christ community, where
the story was, where the story originated, the one that
Grant is focusing on focused on. So whenever I don't
know's it's.
Speaker 6 (21:27):
I think it's too soon to tell what the media
the outside mainstream media is going to do with the
story because.
Speaker 15 (21:36):
It's only been out a couple of days. But I
know that I whatever it is, I can't anticipate it.
It's all it's all very new to us. Even though
we have been in the.
Speaker 6 (21:48):
News before during for the Reign of Terror, We've never
experienced this kind of fame and a mile of time.
So I think it's all going to it's gonna be
a long time to a perspective on exactly what is
going to happen in terms of our communities actor everything.
Speaker 5 (22:12):
Is, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
I think that really speaks to making sure people who
are affected by your reporting feel part part of the process.
And John Maker spoke a little bit of that when
Shannon asked him what it was like finding out all
this information about his family that you that you brought
to him. And I just thought that was so moving,
Like even though we had heard him on the podcast
talking about them, talking about that, you know, there he
(22:36):
was like retelling this story and it was if people
who had i know, listened to the podcast like it
was as it was, if it was as if like
they had heard it for the first time ever.
Speaker 5 (22:47):
Die those documents.
Speaker 16 (22:50):
Family, Okay, yeah, well, person to go back a little
bit further, uh to get to that that question.
Speaker 5 (23:05):
Uh, that goes back to when.
Speaker 16 (23:07):
Rachel first called me on the phone when this all
the game was me with my part of it, and
I got a call from her and.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
And I called her back.
Speaker 16 (23:21):
She left me a message on the phone and asked
me if by my great grandmother was uh way? Who
saw that that was her old say name. She didn't
have an English name, and uh so that really got
my interest up, of course, and then I called her back.
(23:41):
I said, yes, that was my great grandmother and she said, well,
I'll identify herself and said, I'm working on this, uh
this research about the h the wealth of the O
Satan nations and then how the wealth transferred out of
our hands into others. So we met here in town
(24:03):
into bubblo of Jill's restaurant. I said, all, let's be
down there and we'll talk about it. And that's when
heard her producer was there. And I met her there
and she had some of these court record documents about
my grandmother's estate, and she said, have you ever have
(24:23):
you ever seen these or heard about this? I got no,
but this is definitely my grandmother.
Speaker 6 (24:30):
And she was.
Speaker 3 (24:34):
One of the.
Speaker 16 (24:37):
She was her, she had a guardian over her, who
was I guess I'll go over and said the old man,
mister Drummond. And she had a list of old sages
who he had guardianship over, and my great grandmother was
(24:58):
one of them. And I found out later I had
actually three other of my relatives. It was on that list,
and of course I was like wow, shocked by it.
You know.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Some of the most interesting conversations took place after the event, too.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah, I mean, that was probably one of the coolest parts,
was just to talk to all these folks that I
hadn't gotten a chance to speak with during the main
reporting of the story. So once we wrapped up, people
were kind of coming up and introducing themselves and sharing
photos and stories. And there was this group of probably
six or seven people, and they told me they were
the descendants of Rhoda Wheeler Ridge, And it was really
(25:41):
just this really moving experience to see and talk with
the relatives of this woman I had spent so much
of my last year reading and learning and thinking about.
And if you don't remember, Roda was the woman who
hired a lawyer and divorced the brother of Jack Drummond's driver,
who was also her step five. She said the two
(26:02):
Pope brothers had coerced her into marrying him in order
to take her money. And while they were, you know,
forcibly keeping her in Colorado, her mother died and ov
Pope inherited her head rights and later sold them, and
so Rhoda really fought to get out from under them
in order to protect herself from her children. So to
see future generations at an event like that was just
(26:23):
such a unique experience. And one of her descendants as
an artist, and she actually made a painting that depicts
Roda's experience called The Sun through the Darkness, and it's
on display in Chicago right now, So if you're in
the Chicago area, you should definitely check it out because
it's just it's just incredibly moving.
Speaker 3 (26:43):
I know, I love the title of that work, and
you're right, it is really moving. I hope people check
it out.
Speaker 16 (26:49):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And then not long after that, someone else came up
to us and mentioned that he was really interested in
helping folks who had osage head rights uh and who
were non oce age and wanted to transfer them back
to the O Sage Nation, so you know, my curiosity
was definitely peaked. And then he hands me his card
(27:10):
and he's actually with the O Sage Agency at the
Department of Interior, and so he said that he can't,
you know, make any promises, but that he wanted to
start looking into it. And I ended up, you know,
with his permission, sharing his information with someone who had
previously told me they were trying to return their head
right share to the tribe. So it'll definitely be interesting
(27:31):
to see to see what comes with that.
Speaker 3 (27:34):
Yeah, I'm definitely going to be keeping tabs on these efforts,
you know, especially since it seems like after now, after
the movie has come out, the National Archives and Records
Association has been digitizing some of these, you know, some
of this research that David Grant did for the book,
including that list of guardianships. So I think that there's
(27:54):
just a there's going to be a lot of interest
in that for sure.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
Any final thoughts, Allison, I.
Speaker 3 (28:01):
Guess I'm just finished by saying that this panel highlighted
why engaging Native people in Native stories is so important.
You know, I report on Indigenous affairs, and a common
theme I hear a lot from Native people so often
like it's like the news is happening to them without
involving them, and the result can be really harmful. So
(28:23):
I think the fact that we, you know, we listened
and we held this public forum for people as a
way to kind of lift back the curtain and the
reporting process, and it just speaks to the power I
think of journalism and how it can be a transformative
tool for people not only to learn about, you know,
things that are you know, in their community, but things
(28:46):
that affect their lives. It's not that non native people
can't tell Native stories, it's just that you need to
do You need to be present, and you need to listen.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
And I think that you have done that in spades.
Speaker 1 (29:00):
Thank you, Allison, and I guess that is it for us.
This has been an experience of a lifetime and we're
just really grateful for everyone who listened to this story.
So on behalf of me and Alison and the rest
of the Intrust team. Thank you. This episode was recorded
(29:26):
and edited by Margaret Sutherland and produced by Magnus Henrikson.
Special thanks to Shannon Shaw Duty and The Osage News,
as well as Verified News Network and KOSU for organizing
and co sponsoring the Intrust panel event. Additional thanks to
Jeff Grocott. Be sure to check out our episode notes
online for photos, maps, and more at bloomberg dot com.
(29:48):
Slash Interest photography by Shane Brown, additional art by Cynthia Hoffman,
Jacqueline Kessler, and Ariel Brown. Music by Laura Orman. Sage
Bauman is Bloomberg's head past
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com