September 24, 2025 • 37 mins
On the premiere episode of Incels, we dig into the phenomenon of the overly online, potentially violent group dubbed Incels — or “involuntarily celibates.” We’ll discuss the dangers of online radicalization, examine some of the major and tragic events that brought the term Incels into the public consciousness, and hear from a mother whose daughter lost her life to a violent Incel on a rampage.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset I.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide Pelissea.
Speaker 5 (00:16):
A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people.
Speaker 6 (00:21):
Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which
I will have my revenge.
Speaker 7 (00:27):
Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women
and towards men who get all the women.
Speaker 8 (00:34):
I just told my husband I know she's dead.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio,
Season one, Episode one. Begin at the ending. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leideker, Gabriel Castillo,
Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. We've had the topic of
(01:01):
in cells, which stands for involuntary celibates, on our radar
for many years. There was an international media explosion after
Elliott Rogers's mass shooting on May twenty third, twenty fourteen,
in Ilavista, California.
Speaker 9 (01:17):
Twenty two year old Elliott Rogers stabbed his three roommates
to death before embarking on a violent rampage which left
three more people dead and fourteen injured. Roger eventually crashed
his car and committed suicide.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
In the ensuing decade, the largely online in cell community
has become wider spread and more insidious. A global pandemic
and increased isolation fueled this vitriaulic fire, and we've been
seeing an uptick in violence, including in the most recent case.
Katie's Studios has covered the Idaho student massacre, where in
(01:51):
cell ideology potentially played a.
Speaker 10 (01:53):
Part, sources saying that Coburger made chauvinistic and condescending remarks
towards women at Washington State. Apparently, Coburger said that men
would take women's jobs because they weren't as smart at
one point.
Speaker 11 (02:06):
We've gotten to this point with Brian Coburger because we're
still looking for a motive, and because these were attractive
young women, one with their boyfriend. So I think it's
not a foreign leap for a lot of people to
question if Brian Coburger is an inseel.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Here's Stephanie and crime analyst Body Moven.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
In cell stands for involuntarily celibate and the involuntarily is
you know important here. They basically blame women for being celibate,
that they're still virgins, that they haven't been given the
right amount of attention from women for whatever reason they're
social standing, maybe the way they look, the way they talk,
the way they walk, any any number of reasons women
(02:48):
are blamed for them being celibate. You know, some are
just very lonely and you know, have a community online
and where they can commiserate with other in cells and
you know, maybe feel better about themselves that they're not
alone in this world.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We've been following in cells for many, many years, but
it really exploded on the scene when Netflix had their
documentary series Adolescence at its core that was about in
cell ideology. We heard a tinge of it. When Brian
Coberger was first arrested for the Idaho student murders, he
too shared in similar ideology. He was never officially called
(03:25):
an in cell but it really opened up the conversation.
But suddenly it's here and we're seeing it in real time.
It's a very sad situation, right. You don't want your
kid to be sad to be you know this mentally
entrenched in this subculture that basically says, you know that
they're they're not good enough, So you do want to
recognize it. Not only so they don't come, you know,
(03:47):
violent against women, but you don't want, you don't your
kid to end up this way. So it's important that
we get into the stuff so that even mothers can
start recognizing these things. Even as we're making this podcast now,
Charlie Kirk was just assassinated. He's a conservative analyst and
his murderer allegedly was radicalized online.
Speaker 12 (04:06):
But why behind this? Again, we're all drawing lots of
conclusions and how someone like this could be radicalized, And
I think that those those are important questions for us
to ask and important questions for us to answer.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
That is why we're covering it now, because it's happening here.
It's the kid in the basement at the house next
door who comes from a really nice family, went to college,
has been alone for way too long, and is suddenly
sucked down the wrong path. Boddy, this is something very
close to your heart, all of ours. Frankly, it's such
(04:39):
a complicated subculture now. These modern in cell groups often
gather on like forums, like reddits, four chan and like
they're having these discussions on the open Internet. Yeah, so
a lot of the conversations in these forums are filled
with like rage and anger, especially towards women that they
see attractive, socially successful.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
You know that even men. The men are referred to
as chads and the women are referred to as staceys.
And these are the men and women that are successful
in life. They're dating, they're having sexual intercourse with people
they consider themselves like the nice guy. When you think
of an inseel, think of somebody that thinks of themselves
as nice and like but almost entitled to women.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
The chads are the men who are whatever percentage the
in cels perceive of men who get all of the women.
And it's kind of this interesting dynamic. It's both hate
and an envy.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Right, that's the scary part that the jealous her age. Yeah,
the perfect intersection.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Not all in cells are violent. Some are just lonely
people and it is sad for them. You know, they
feel ostracized from, you know, the rest of the world.
They're lonely, they're celibate, they have no companionship, and the
only friends they have are those online that they've formed
in these communities. The problem is that those communities are
fostering that feeling and it's pumping them up and make
(06:00):
them even more, you know, the rahticas, making them more violent.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
It's a pretty violent ideology though to some of it
his sense and guess what, on that little like forum,
potentially there are some scary people who are kind of
feeding off that as well, and air quotes grooming these
young men to radicalize as well. It's undeniably a pretty
radical group.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
But it's important to know that not every inseel is
going to turn out to be violent.
Speaker 8 (06:26):
All right.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
There are some interesting studies coming out about who in
cels are, and the average age is the mid twenties,
around twenty six years old. They usually live with their
parents or their grandparents. Twenty five percent do live alone.
Only four percent of them are are employed full time.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Seventy five percent living with mom and dad or grandparents.
And by the way, post COVID, everybody was like locked
in their basements. If you were already experiencing some level
of loneliness or you were feeling disenfranchised, Now add you
know a year and a half, two years of isolation
to the equation, there's an uptick and I think it's obvious.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Why Yeah, when when COVID happened, it was like kind
of like the pressure cooker. It really kind of like
expanded this movement. Fifty eight percent of them are white,
forty two percent of people of color. Seventy three percent
report moderate to severe depression, and they blame it on
women for women not wanting them, you know, they're not
socially attractive, or they're awkward in some way, or you know,
(07:24):
or there's excuse after excuse after excuse, and so they
feel that women are responsible for their depression and their loneliness,
and that turns that can turn into rage, which can
turn violence. One more thing too, Forty eight percent scored
at the highest level on loneliness scales at arica alert
(07:46):
dot org, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I think the Brian Coburger case, I think it's a
real look at loneliness and it's really case scenario. You know,
you know that he was an odd guy with very
little social interaction in friends. Not that that just it, obviously,
but if we're trying to unpack how to prevent these
types of isolated killers on the loose or in the making,
(08:09):
it's important stuff that we talk.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
About in the course of our reporting and even anecdotally
in our lives, we found a shocking amount of people
who've never even heard the word in cell. That's why
we took on this project. We want parents, friends and
families to understand what could be happening and what danger
signs to look out for. The intent is not fear mongering.
(08:35):
We're going to look into crimes committed in the name
of in cells, share perspectives from different experts about in
cell ideology, the seriousness of algorithms in social media, and
just who is at risk for being radicalized. To understand
all perspectives, we've infiltrated the in cell community to gather
personal experiences with self identifying in cells. It's a complex
(08:58):
issue and all aspects need to be understood to get
to the root of the problem before we even begin
looking for solutions. I spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell
about his experiences and online insell forums.
Speaker 7 (09:15):
To get a better sense of the in sell community.
I started to all go onto different forums on different
social media sites, and I sort of discovered that there
were a couple different continuous themes. One is the one
that I think most people associate with the inseell community,
which is sort of very angry, expressing a lot of
hatred towards women, towards people in power, towards men who
(09:38):
they describe as chads who have money and just get
all the women. And then there's another group that I
think is a little bit less angry and more depressed,
people who are genuinely looking for connection and answers to
the feelings that they're having, to the issues that they
are facing. There obviously is some in between, and there
(09:59):
are people people who express anger and frustration that you
see and also looking for help. But there really does
seem to be this divide in the in cell community
between these two groups, and you really see a playout
on some of these forums where there is just vitriolic
anger at women, at society, at people with what these
groups and these people believe sort of all of the
(10:21):
advantages of in the world that they they hate them,
they want them gone, They joke about death, they joke
about rape.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
Obviously, I had violent thoughts. I always held back, you know,
in real life thoughts of like women that I did
want to you know, Ripe, as a teenager, there was
quite a few women that I did want to break
their eyes, so they would be ugly and couldn't get
a hot boyfriend.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
And then there's other Like I said, there's these other
in cels who they don't want that conversation. They want
a conversation about why is their life lacking the meaning
they think it should have, And a lot of that
revolves around inauthentic or a lack of relationships. They're looking
for a way to have some connection, but they're also
stuck behind the keyboard, behind computers. It feels like that's
(11:12):
where they lack that sort of connection and they're looking
for connection.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I asked Connor if it seemed like the men simply
felt more comfortable with the anonymity of being behind a
computer screen, or if they didn't like how they were
being received in public.
Speaker 7 (11:31):
I think it's the way that they feel that they
aren't received the way that they think they should be.
There is this perception that I keep seeing in this
continual theme, which is that everyone else sort of gets
the looks in the room in terms of like the
positive looks, whereas I only get the negative looks, or
if they even bother to look at me. There's this
perceived notion that there is a group of people sort
(11:53):
of what they call the chads, the men who are
they get all the advantages, they have all the advantages.
They're muscular, they're full head of hair, and the in
cell community has like you can see that there's just
a lack of self confidence with a lot of these people,
and the confidence I think is missing for a lot
(12:13):
of different reasons.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I mentioned learning about some self identifying in cells describing
being out in the world as feeling like being inside
of a video game versus feeling more alive when they're
alone in their homes.
Speaker 7 (12:30):
There is this sort of feeling that their real life
for them is behind the keyboard on a social media forum,
whether it's discord or the in cell community forms, or
even read it to some extent. And then you also
do see these themes where there are people who think
the real world is sort of the fake world for
them because they just they don't feel comfortable in it,
(12:50):
they don't know how to interact with people. You see
this regularly on in cell forms, which is that the
real world is the inauthentic relationships and the online form
world are the more true the authentic relationships, and that
these online community forms are where in cells can sort
of be themselves without any of the social pressure that
(13:13):
they would face out in the real world.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I asked if there seemed to be a clash between
the men going onto forums looking for a glimmer of
hope for their situations versus others spewing vitriolic hate speech.
Speaker 7 (13:30):
You sort of see these comments pieced together, which is
like the world is efed up, society's fed up, everything
is screwed up. And then just screw the women rape them.
And then there's these other men. A lot of them
are just teenage boys or young adolescent men, and they're struggling,
they're asking for help. They often don't have direction. There
are some of these in cells who want relationships, and
(13:52):
then these other ones who are just like, screw it,
it's never going to happen for me. I don't care.
It's everyone else's fault. I can't change it. But ultimately
they are all so people who jump in there and
on these forms that are just like, it's never going
to change for you. You are what you are. Don't
try to change the world should change for us.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I asked Connor if anything specific stood out or surprised
him during his time on the in cell forums.
Speaker 7 (14:17):
I think what shocks me is the it's not the
level of just sort of awful discussions racist behavior, sexist behavior,
you know, just that you can sort of see anywhere
on social media. It's the balancing back and forth between the, Ah,
we're just joking, you know, this is just we're just
saying this for effect, and then there's other people who
are like, no, no, we're really saying this. And you can
(14:40):
see where a young, impressionable male can really get caught
up in what is this real? Should I be embracing
this as real? Or is this just people having fun?
And you can see this playing out in real time
where there is this continual debate between you know, we're
just being stupid, and the other flip side of that is,
oh no, no, we're deadly serious. And these guys who
can a violence, there are heroes.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. On May twenty fourteen, self described in cel
(15:33):
Elliott Roger went on a killing spree at the University
of Santa Barbara in Ila Vista, California. He injured fourteen
innocent people and killed six more. Chang Hong, George Chen
Weihan Wang, Catherine Cooper, Veronica Weiss, and Chris Michaels Martinez.
(15:58):
The ripple effects of this violin is far reaching and
for some lifelong. For this first episode, we decided to
begin at the ending and to look into the inevitable
fallout after online radicalization leads to senseless violence. Here's producer
Carolyn Miller speaking with Colleen Weiss, the mother of nineteen
(16:19):
year old Veronica Weiss. This is the first time she's
speaking out publicly.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
I'm Colleen Weiss, and my daughter is Veronica Weiss. She
was killed by Ella Roger in Ila Vesta, May twenty third,
twenty fourteen. Veronica loved to be involved in everything. She
(16:53):
liked to try new things. Her freshman year, she played
four sports and figured out she really wanted to play
water polo, so she then proceeded to play water polo
every year throughout high school. She always made anything that
(17:14):
we did fun. I also have two sons that were
very close in age to her. They were just two
and three years younger than her, and we would have
people tell us that who has the best arm in
the Wise family, and they'd say Veronica. So she was
(17:40):
tough too.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
She was.
Speaker 8 (17:42):
You know, she was a competitor and very fierce about
protecting her friends and being a great friend.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
And her favorite color was purple.
Speaker 8 (17:54):
Oh one hundred percent. She made that known to us
when she was two or three, and she carried that forward.
Everyone knew that that was her favorite color. She was
just independent from a very early age. I remember when
she was five years old, we were living in California,
(18:17):
and she absolutely wanted to go visit her grandmother and
her aunts in Seattle. So we put her on a
plane by herself and she got up there and I
just I remember talking to her on the phone and
I asked her, do you miss me? And she said, oh,
well no, because I know I'm going to see you again.
(18:41):
And she was always just in the moment and that
was just her And it's just always kind of warmed
my heart because I know that she was just enjoying
everything that she was doing. Really loved life, life, friends
(19:01):
and family, and very inclusive of any type of person.
There was no boundary or limits to you know, who
she would be friend or be kind to.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
You've never interviewed about her before, have you?
Speaker 8 (19:22):
I have not?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
No, Why did you decide to do it?
Speaker 8 (19:25):
Now after ten plus long years, I'm finally in kind
of that acceptance and able to just really appreciate her life.
So I'm in a much better place.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
How about her brothers and her dad? Are they doing? Okay?
Speaker 8 (19:51):
I think we're we're kind of all coming to that.
It has been i'd say a long I want to
really use tortures as the word, but that's that's how
it felt at many points.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Okay, So let's go back to that day in May
twenty fourteen. Yes, how did that day play out for you?
How did you find out what happened? And Veronica was
involved in this?
Speaker 8 (20:25):
Well, it was Memorial Day weekend and we had a
lot of plans that weekend. What actually happened is the
weekend before that, my husband had some ski passes for
Mammoth and I had told her about it, and she
(20:45):
just jumped at it and said, yes, I'll go with
you guys, just with me and my husband, her dad,
but going to Memorial Day, and this is what will
kind of you know, you don't you can't regret or
question this, But most likely she might have come home
Memorial Day weekend if she had if we hadn't gone
(21:06):
to Mammoth two weekends before. So it was Friday, Friday night.
We're having a great time holiday weekend, and we had
actually gone to bed somewhat early, about ten o'clock and
about eleven thirty, I got a call on my cell
phone and it was one of Veronica's sorority sisters and
(21:29):
she just said, I'm not sure if you know what's
going on up here. There's been some shootings and they
just wanted to know have you heard from Veronica? And
I just said no, and I got a little bit
more information. Of course, we turned on the TV started
(21:50):
calling some hospitals after I tried to call her multiple times.
And I mean, right at that point, I knew something
was wrong. I just I knew right away that if
she could contact us, she would have, and I knew
she was right around the campus that night doing the
sorority functions. So at that point, my sons had come home,
(22:17):
and I just remember one of my sons saying to me,
who would want to kill Veronica? Like this is don't
be like this, just can't. She's going to be fine.
And so we my husband and I got into the
car and drove up to UCSB or we drove to
the hospital around UCSB and there we found some of
(22:42):
the sorority sisters who were there with one of the
girls who had been shot, who was with Veronica, but
there was no Veronica there, and at that point we
were able to track her. I found and we could
(23:02):
see that her phone was sitting at one of the
locations that they had indicated on the news that there had,
you know, been a shooting. So we drove over to
where as close as we could to where the phone
was and found a police officer over there said what
(23:25):
my daughter's name was? And I could just tell he
just looked at the name and just said, okay, well,
you know there's we need. You can sit in your
car and we'll come get you, you know when we can.
So it's just I I just told my husband, I
know she's she's dead.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Let's stop here for another break.
Speaker 8 (23:53):
We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
We're continuing the conversation between producer Carolyn Miller and Colleen Weiss.
Colleen Weiss is the mother of nineteen year old Veronica Weiss.
Speaker 8 (24:23):
I remember we sat in the car close to the
location almost all night. We knew what was going to happen.
And they didn't tell us much other than Veronica was killed.
There weren't really any details. It is so hard to remember.
(24:47):
The only thing that stuck in my mind was one
of the police officers said to me, this is the
hardest part of my job, and I just thought, okay,
thank you, I'm sorry for you. You know. I don't
know why that just stuck with me. And I wouldn't
(25:09):
say I was emotionless, but I just I couldn't do anything.
I just kind of sat there.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Did you get the chance to see her after that?
Speaker 8 (25:23):
Well, they told us right away, something like this is
not like you see on TV. We have a way
of identifying bodies without you, don't you know, you don't
have to come in. And I did not want to
see her. I didn't. I didn't want any memory like that.
(25:48):
And it maybe seems odd, but I am so glad
that I never have to go back and have that
picture mind, because I only have beautiful memories and I
know it was a terrible thing that happened to her.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
How was your husband and your sons that night? How
did they react?
Speaker 8 (26:16):
I mean, my husband just immediately broke down. We went
kind of straight home after this happened. We wanted to
get home to the boys and we just I remember
we just all got into our bed and we were
just kind of holding each other or just laying there.
(26:39):
It just was terrible.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
The next couple of days after Veronica was killed, how
do you all together get each other through it?
Speaker 8 (26:52):
Not very well? Not very well at all. I do
remember I was in shock for i'd say at least
a couple of days. And then we started having all
these this family coming in and people contacting us, and
it was it was chaos.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Knowing that the perpetrator that we still don't know anything about,
did you know at that point that he had taken
his own life, that he had shot himself.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
After yes, okay, yes, okay, so we we knew pretty quick.
And I that is one thing that I also, you
find everything to be grateful for.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
I'm grateful that it wasn't unknown or that we had
to go through a trial.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Were you angry at all?
Speaker 8 (27:46):
I never had those feelings. I never, I never did.
I know, everyone has circumstances, and I just I thought
this kid, I'm going to call him a kid, but
he wasn't a kid. Well, he was very young. He
was in so much pain, and I look and say,
(28:09):
my daughter was so happy, so focused on what she
was doing and what she wanted to do. That it
just no, I did not I didn't feel angry. I
never had that.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
So would that all media coverage? How did that affect
your grieving process?
Speaker 8 (28:36):
During that whole period, I felt like I was still
in some kind of shock and I just was going
through the motions. They put together a memorial at Weslake
High School immediately, I think it was the Monday after
it happened, so we needed to go up to the
(28:58):
high school and and it was just packed and it
was it was beautiful what they did. And then I
know when we were leaving, I saw all the water
polo girls all got in the pool afterwards, which was
pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
I read an article about that and how everybody showed.
Speaker 8 (29:21):
Up wearing purple yes yes in honor of her.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
How proud does that make you of Veronica?
Speaker 8 (29:29):
Oh? Immensely, immensely. It just it was. I mean, it
gave me a lot of warmth. And I know she
would have loved it too.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
So what was the hardest part of navigating that immediate aftermath?
Speaker 8 (29:45):
Many days of just not wanting to be around, not
wanting to feel that pain, just seeing how it affected
the boys and my husband and I just didn't know
how we would ever go back to normal. I didn't know.
(30:06):
I couldn't see a path forward, and it just felt
very desperate. It's very hard.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Let's get into what we know about Elliott Roger? Yes,
how did you learn about him?
Speaker 8 (30:21):
Just by reading things on the internet? And I remember
reading a couple pages of the Manifesto at one point
and again just kind of turned away from that. I
just I spent many years where I didn't want to
hear anything about him. I really didn't. So it has
(30:44):
only been recently, in the last year that I've learned
just how much he's revered or whatever it is. And again,
that's just very sad, very sad.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
He was considered what they call an in cell. Yes,
had you ever heard that term before? No, no idea
what that even is?
Speaker 8 (31:12):
No? Not at the time.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
How much of that did you get into when you're
learning about Elliott Roger?
Speaker 8 (31:18):
Very very high level. I just wanted to focus on
her memory, but you couldn't. Throughout the years, it became
where you couldn't watch a movie or a TV show
without it became like, oh, well, yeah, this is just
part of our culture now.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, so he committed to the side. Afterwards, you didn't
get to get a guilty verdict, he didn't get a
prison sentence. Did you ever feel robbed of that?
Speaker 8 (31:49):
Absolutely not. I thought that was probably the best ending
for him. I knew enough to know how how long
he had suffered from different problems and never been accepted
or just different things like that. And no, I do
(32:14):
think about the people that have to face their sons
or their daughters killer in court, and that would be
the last thing I would want to do when there.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Is a trial. You know, there's graphic photos that they
show from crime scenes, and that was one thing you
said you never wanted to see.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
I didn't if I could just add as a mother,
you know, sometimes you question yourself, like I thought, what
mother would not want to see every part of their
child or what had happened to them or so I
questioned that for a little bit, but then had to
(32:58):
go back to, well, no, this is me personally, this
is I have to deal with this, and I shouldn't
feel bad about not wanting to do that and not
doing it.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
You know, you said you have nothing but great, beautiful
memories of her, and that's what that's what's important, that's
what matters.
Speaker 8 (33:19):
Yes, yes, so knowing this.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
This world that he was in and now he's become
like this martyr for this community because there have been
other incidents where people have gotten very violent, there's been
other murders and would use his name as like a
hero and they looked up to him. How does that
(33:46):
make you feel when you know that people are putting
him on a pedestal for something so evil even.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
I mean again, I feel sadness for those people. I
just feel sadness for them, sadness for their parents. I mean,
I could have a child that ended up being like that.
You know, you don't. You would hope not, but you
never know. And again, I just it's it's very sad,
(34:16):
very sad.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
A lot of people would be just mad and angry
and cursing in every which way. But you said you
said that you felt sorry for him.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
I mean, I think about it seemed twenty four to
seven for this person. I mean, you don't know that,
but he was feeling desperate, sad. Just I don't want
anyone to feel like that. I don't naturally have that emotion.
I do get mad, but at things, but when it
(34:50):
comes to people and what they do. I mean, this
life can be very difficult and people look experience very
bizarre things, and this world is more and more challenging
each day, and the Internet and it's it's very complicated.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Do you keep any trinkets of hers around?
Speaker 8 (35:19):
I do? I do? Can I grab it?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Yes? Please?
Speaker 5 (35:23):
Do?
Speaker 8 (35:23):
Okay? So, I mean her freshman year, she wasn't good
enough to play water polo at UCSB, which didn't bother
her at all. Just a week before she died, she said, Mom,
I really I'm going to start swimming again, but I
(35:46):
don't have a cap or goggles. So I said, we'll
just order them on our Amazon get you know, get them.
And I remember it was a week before. When we
went to pack up her room, it was so organized
and neat, like everything was in its place. But I
(36:09):
found her little sport bag with goggles and her and
a cap that she already had, and it just like
when she said she was going to do something, it
just it was done. And so these are actually right
on my bed. So it's like little things like that
(36:29):
that really warm your heart.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Next time on in cells it is.
Speaker 7 (36:38):
Absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out, only
have online community.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
He had planned this.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
There's clear evidence at least a week prior, including a
note in his notes heap on his phone entitled murder suicide.
Speaker 11 (36:56):
Most of their anger, most of their hatred is actually
reserved for the women.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
So this idea of six six six six feet tall
six figure incomes six inches plus.
Speaker 7 (37:09):
That's the ideal man.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is
produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Additional producing by Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller, editing by
Jeff Tooi music by Vanikore Studios. In Cells is a
(37:36):
production of KAT Studios and iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset I.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
Am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either.
Speaker 3 (00:06):
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 4 (00:13):
In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide Pelissea.
Speaker 5 (00:16):
A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people.
Speaker 6 (00:21):
Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which
I will have my revenge.
Speaker 7 (00:27):
Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women
and towards men who get all the women.
Speaker 8 (00:34):
I just told my husband I know she's dead.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio,
Season one, Episode one. Begin at the ending. I'm Courtney Armstrong,
a producer at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leideker, Gabriel Castillo,
Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. We've had the topic of
(01:01):
in cells, which stands for involuntary celibates, on our radar
for many years. There was an international media explosion after
Elliott Rogers's mass shooting on May twenty third, twenty fourteen,
in Ilavista, California.
Speaker 9 (01:17):
Twenty two year old Elliott Rogers stabbed his three roommates
to death before embarking on a violent rampage which left
three more people dead and fourteen injured. Roger eventually crashed
his car and committed suicide.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
In the ensuing decade, the largely online in cell community
has become wider spread and more insidious. A global pandemic
and increased isolation fueled this vitriaulic fire, and we've been
seeing an uptick in violence, including in the most recent case.
Katie's Studios has covered the Idaho student massacre, where in
(01:51):
cell ideology potentially played a.
Speaker 10 (01:53):
Part, sources saying that Coburger made chauvinistic and condescending remarks
towards women at Washington State. Apparently, Coburger said that men
would take women's jobs because they weren't as smart at
one point.
Speaker 11 (02:06):
We've gotten to this point with Brian Coburger because we're
still looking for a motive, and because these were attractive
young women, one with their boyfriend. So I think it's
not a foreign leap for a lot of people to
question if Brian Coburger is an inseel.
Speaker 1 (02:22):
Here's Stephanie and crime analyst Body Moven.
Speaker 4 (02:26):
In cell stands for involuntarily celibate and the involuntarily is
you know important here. They basically blame women for being celibate,
that they're still virgins, that they haven't been given the
right amount of attention from women for whatever reason they're
social standing, maybe the way they look, the way they talk,
the way they walk, any any number of reasons women
(02:48):
are blamed for them being celibate. You know, some are
just very lonely and you know, have a community online
and where they can commiserate with other in cells and
you know, maybe feel better about themselves that they're not
alone in this world.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
We've been following in cells for many, many years, but
it really exploded on the scene when Netflix had their
documentary series Adolescence at its core that was about in
cell ideology. We heard a tinge of it. When Brian
Coberger was first arrested for the Idaho student murders, he
too shared in similar ideology. He was never officially called
(03:25):
an in cell but it really opened up the conversation.
But suddenly it's here and we're seeing it in real time.
It's a very sad situation, right. You don't want your
kid to be sad to be you know this mentally
entrenched in this subculture that basically says, you know that
they're they're not good enough, So you do want to
recognize it. Not only so they don't come, you know,
(03:47):
violent against women, but you don't want, you don't your
kid to end up this way. So it's important that
we get into the stuff so that even mothers can
start recognizing these things. Even as we're making this podcast now,
Charlie Kirk was just assassinated. He's a conservative analyst and
his murderer allegedly was radicalized online.
Speaker 12 (04:06):
But why behind this? Again, we're all drawing lots of
conclusions and how someone like this could be radicalized, And
I think that those those are important questions for us
to ask and important questions for us to answer.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
That is why we're covering it now, because it's happening here.
It's the kid in the basement at the house next
door who comes from a really nice family, went to college,
has been alone for way too long, and is suddenly
sucked down the wrong path. Boddy, this is something very
close to your heart, all of ours. Frankly, it's such
(04:39):
a complicated subculture now. These modern in cell groups often
gather on like forums, like reddits, four chan and like
they're having these discussions on the open Internet. Yeah, so
a lot of the conversations in these forums are filled
with like rage and anger, especially towards women that they
see attractive, socially successful.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
You know that even men. The men are referred to
as chads and the women are referred to as staceys.
And these are the men and women that are successful
in life. They're dating, they're having sexual intercourse with people
they consider themselves like the nice guy. When you think
of an inseel, think of somebody that thinks of themselves
as nice and like but almost entitled to women.
Speaker 1 (05:20):
The chads are the men who are whatever percentage the
in cels perceive of men who get all of the women.
And it's kind of this interesting dynamic. It's both hate
and an envy.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
Right, that's the scary part that the jealous her age. Yeah,
the perfect intersection.
Speaker 4 (05:38):
Not all in cells are violent. Some are just lonely
people and it is sad for them. You know, they
feel ostracized from, you know, the rest of the world.
They're lonely, they're celibate, they have no companionship, and the
only friends they have are those online that they've formed
in these communities. The problem is that those communities are
fostering that feeling and it's pumping them up and make
(06:00):
them even more, you know, the rahticas, making them more violent.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
It's a pretty violent ideology though to some of it
his sense and guess what, on that little like forum,
potentially there are some scary people who are kind of
feeding off that as well, and air quotes grooming these
young men to radicalize as well. It's undeniably a pretty
radical group.
Speaker 4 (06:22):
But it's important to know that not every inseel is
going to turn out to be violent.
Speaker 8 (06:26):
All right.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
There are some interesting studies coming out about who in
cels are, and the average age is the mid twenties,
around twenty six years old. They usually live with their
parents or their grandparents. Twenty five percent do live alone.
Only four percent of them are are employed full time.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Seventy five percent living with mom and dad or grandparents.
And by the way, post COVID, everybody was like locked
in their basements. If you were already experiencing some level
of loneliness or you were feeling disenfranchised, Now add you
know a year and a half, two years of isolation
to the equation, there's an uptick and I think it's obvious.
Speaker 4 (07:01):
Why Yeah, when when COVID happened, it was like kind
of like the pressure cooker. It really kind of like
expanded this movement. Fifty eight percent of them are white,
forty two percent of people of color. Seventy three percent
report moderate to severe depression, and they blame it on
women for women not wanting them, you know, they're not
socially attractive, or they're awkward in some way, or you know,
(07:24):
or there's excuse after excuse after excuse, and so they
feel that women are responsible for their depression and their loneliness,
and that turns that can turn into rage, which can
turn violence. One more thing too, Forty eight percent scored
at the highest level on loneliness scales at arica alert
(07:46):
dot org, which is interesting.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
I think the Brian Coburger case, I think it's a
real look at loneliness and it's really case scenario. You know,
you know that he was an odd guy with very
little social interaction in friends. Not that that just it, obviously,
but if we're trying to unpack how to prevent these
types of isolated killers on the loose or in the making,
(08:09):
it's important stuff that we talk.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
About in the course of our reporting and even anecdotally
in our lives, we found a shocking amount of people
who've never even heard the word in cell. That's why
we took on this project. We want parents, friends and
families to understand what could be happening and what danger
signs to look out for. The intent is not fear mongering.
(08:35):
We're going to look into crimes committed in the name
of in cells, share perspectives from different experts about in
cell ideology, the seriousness of algorithms in social media, and
just who is at risk for being radicalized. To understand
all perspectives, we've infiltrated the in cell community to gather
personal experiences with self identifying in cells. It's a complex
(08:58):
issue and all aspects need to be understood to get
to the root of the problem before we even begin
looking for solutions. I spoke with investigative journalist Connor Powell
about his experiences and online insell forums.
Speaker 7 (09:15):
To get a better sense of the in sell community.
I started to all go onto different forums on different
social media sites, and I sort of discovered that there
were a couple different continuous themes. One is the one
that I think most people associate with the inseell community,
which is sort of very angry, expressing a lot of
hatred towards women, towards people in power, towards men who
(09:38):
they describe as chads who have money and just get
all the women. And then there's another group that I
think is a little bit less angry and more depressed,
people who are genuinely looking for connection and answers to
the feelings that they're having, to the issues that they
are facing. There obviously is some in between, and there
(09:59):
are people people who express anger and frustration that you
see and also looking for help. But there really does
seem to be this divide in the in cell community
between these two groups, and you really see a playout
on some of these forums where there is just vitriolic
anger at women, at society, at people with what these
groups and these people believe sort of all of the
(10:21):
advantages of in the world that they they hate them,
they want them gone, They joke about death, they joke
about rape.
Speaker 6 (10:29):
Obviously, I had violent thoughts. I always held back, you know,
in real life thoughts of like women that I did
want to you know, Ripe, as a teenager, there was
quite a few women that I did want to break
their eyes, so they would be ugly and couldn't get
a hot boyfriend.
Speaker 7 (10:50):
And then there's other Like I said, there's these other
in cels who they don't want that conversation. They want
a conversation about why is their life lacking the meaning
they think it should have, And a lot of that
revolves around inauthentic or a lack of relationships. They're looking
for a way to have some connection, but they're also
stuck behind the keyboard, behind computers. It feels like that's
(11:12):
where they lack that sort of connection and they're looking
for connection.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
I asked Connor if it seemed like the men simply
felt more comfortable with the anonymity of being behind a
computer screen, or if they didn't like how they were
being received in public.
Speaker 7 (11:31):
I think it's the way that they feel that they
aren't received the way that they think they should be.
There is this perception that I keep seeing in this
continual theme, which is that everyone else sort of gets
the looks in the room in terms of like the
positive looks, whereas I only get the negative looks, or
if they even bother to look at me. There's this
perceived notion that there is a group of people sort
(11:53):
of what they call the chads, the men who are
they get all the advantages, they have all the advantages.
They're muscular, they're full head of hair, and the in
cell community has like you can see that there's just
a lack of self confidence with a lot of these people,
and the confidence I think is missing for a lot
(12:13):
of different reasons.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
I mentioned learning about some self identifying in cells describing
being out in the world as feeling like being inside
of a video game versus feeling more alive when they're
alone in their homes.
Speaker 7 (12:30):
There is this sort of feeling that their real life
for them is behind the keyboard on a social media forum,
whether it's discord or the in cell community forms, or
even read it to some extent. And then you also
do see these themes where there are people who think
the real world is sort of the fake world for
them because they just they don't feel comfortable in it,
(12:50):
they don't know how to interact with people. You see
this regularly on in cell forms, which is that the
real world is the inauthentic relationships and the online form
world are the more true the authentic relationships, and that
these online community forms are where in cells can sort
of be themselves without any of the social pressure that
(13:13):
they would face out in the real world.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
I asked if there seemed to be a clash between
the men going onto forums looking for a glimmer of
hope for their situations versus others spewing vitriolic hate speech.
Speaker 7 (13:30):
You sort of see these comments pieced together, which is
like the world is efed up, society's fed up, everything
is screwed up. And then just screw the women rape them.
And then there's these other men. A lot of them
are just teenage boys or young adolescent men, and they're struggling,
they're asking for help. They often don't have direction. There
are some of these in cells who want relationships, and
(13:52):
then these other ones who are just like, screw it,
it's never going to happen for me. I don't care.
It's everyone else's fault. I can't change it. But ultimately
they are all so people who jump in there and
on these forms that are just like, it's never going
to change for you. You are what you are. Don't
try to change the world should change for us.
Speaker 1 (14:09):
I asked Connor if anything specific stood out or surprised
him during his time on the in cell forums.
Speaker 7 (14:17):
I think what shocks me is the it's not the
level of just sort of awful discussions racist behavior, sexist behavior,
you know, just that you can sort of see anywhere
on social media. It's the balancing back and forth between the, Ah,
we're just joking, you know, this is just we're just
saying this for effect, and then there's other people who
are like, no, no, we're really saying this. And you can
(14:40):
see where a young, impressionable male can really get caught
up in what is this real? Should I be embracing
this as real? Or is this just people having fun?
And you can see this playing out in real time
where there is this continual debate between you know, we're
just being stupid, and the other flip side of that is,
oh no, no, we're deadly serious. And these guys who
can a violence, there are heroes.
Speaker 1 (15:06):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. On May twenty fourteen, self described in cel
(15:33):
Elliott Roger went on a killing spree at the University
of Santa Barbara in Ila Vista, California. He injured fourteen
innocent people and killed six more. Chang Hong, George Chen
Weihan Wang, Catherine Cooper, Veronica Weiss, and Chris Michaels Martinez.
(15:58):
The ripple effects of this violin is far reaching and
for some lifelong. For this first episode, we decided to
begin at the ending and to look into the inevitable
fallout after online radicalization leads to senseless violence. Here's producer
Carolyn Miller speaking with Colleen Weiss, the mother of nineteen
(16:19):
year old Veronica Weiss. This is the first time she's
speaking out publicly.
Speaker 8 (16:28):
I'm Colleen Weiss, and my daughter is Veronica Weiss. She
was killed by Ella Roger in Ila Vesta, May twenty third,
twenty fourteen. Veronica loved to be involved in everything. She
(16:53):
liked to try new things. Her freshman year, she played
four sports and figured out she really wanted to play
water polo, so she then proceeded to play water polo
every year throughout high school. She always made anything that
(17:14):
we did fun. I also have two sons that were
very close in age to her. They were just two
and three years younger than her, and we would have
people tell us that who has the best arm in
the Wise family, and they'd say Veronica. So she was
(17:40):
tough too.
Speaker 6 (17:41):
She was.
Speaker 8 (17:42):
You know, she was a competitor and very fierce about
protecting her friends and being a great friend.
Speaker 3 (17:52):
And her favorite color was purple.
Speaker 8 (17:54):
Oh one hundred percent. She made that known to us
when she was two or three, and she carried that forward.
Everyone knew that that was her favorite color. She was
just independent from a very early age. I remember when
she was five years old, we were living in California,
(18:17):
and she absolutely wanted to go visit her grandmother and
her aunts in Seattle. So we put her on a
plane by herself and she got up there and I
just I remember talking to her on the phone and
I asked her, do you miss me? And she said, oh,
well no, because I know I'm going to see you again.
(18:41):
And she was always just in the moment and that
was just her And it's just always kind of warmed
my heart because I know that she was just enjoying
everything that she was doing. Really loved life, life, friends
(19:01):
and family, and very inclusive of any type of person.
There was no boundary or limits to you know, who
she would be friend or be kind to.
Speaker 3 (19:18):
You've never interviewed about her before, have you?
Speaker 8 (19:22):
I have not?
Speaker 3 (19:23):
No, Why did you decide to do it?
Speaker 8 (19:25):
Now after ten plus long years, I'm finally in kind
of that acceptance and able to just really appreciate her life.
So I'm in a much better place.
Speaker 3 (19:46):
How about her brothers and her dad? Are they doing? Okay?
Speaker 8 (19:51):
I think we're we're kind of all coming to that.
It has been i'd say a long I want to
really use tortures as the word, but that's that's how
it felt at many points.
Speaker 3 (20:06):
Okay, So let's go back to that day in May
twenty fourteen. Yes, how did that day play out for you?
How did you find out what happened? And Veronica was
involved in this?
Speaker 8 (20:25):
Well, it was Memorial Day weekend and we had a
lot of plans that weekend. What actually happened is the
weekend before that, my husband had some ski passes for
Mammoth and I had told her about it, and she
(20:45):
just jumped at it and said, yes, I'll go with
you guys, just with me and my husband, her dad,
but going to Memorial Day, and this is what will
kind of you know, you don't you can't regret or
question this, But most likely she might have come home
Memorial Day weekend if she had if we hadn't gone
(21:06):
to Mammoth two weekends before. So it was Friday, Friday night.
We're having a great time holiday weekend, and we had
actually gone to bed somewhat early, about ten o'clock and
about eleven thirty, I got a call on my cell
phone and it was one of Veronica's sorority sisters and
(21:29):
she just said, I'm not sure if you know what's
going on up here. There's been some shootings and they
just wanted to know have you heard from Veronica? And
I just said no, and I got a little bit
more information. Of course, we turned on the TV started
(21:50):
calling some hospitals after I tried to call her multiple times.
And I mean, right at that point, I knew something
was wrong. I just I knew right away that if
she could contact us, she would have, and I knew
she was right around the campus that night doing the
sorority functions. So at that point, my sons had come home,
(22:17):
and I just remember one of my sons saying to me,
who would want to kill Veronica? Like this is don't
be like this, just can't. She's going to be fine.
And so we my husband and I got into the
car and drove up to UCSB or we drove to
the hospital around UCSB and there we found some of
(22:42):
the sorority sisters who were there with one of the
girls who had been shot, who was with Veronica, but
there was no Veronica there, and at that point we
were able to track her. I found and we could
(23:02):
see that her phone was sitting at one of the
locations that they had indicated on the news that there had,
you know, been a shooting. So we drove over to
where as close as we could to where the phone
was and found a police officer over there said what
(23:25):
my daughter's name was? And I could just tell he
just looked at the name and just said, okay, well,
you know there's we need. You can sit in your
car and we'll come get you, you know when we can.
So it's just I I just told my husband, I
know she's she's dead.
Speaker 1 (23:50):
Let's stop here for another break.
Speaker 8 (23:53):
We'll be back in a moment.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
We're continuing the conversation between producer Carolyn Miller and Colleen Weiss.
Colleen Weiss is the mother of nineteen year old Veronica Weiss.
Speaker 8 (24:23):
I remember we sat in the car close to the
location almost all night. We knew what was going to happen.
And they didn't tell us much other than Veronica was killed.
There weren't really any details. It is so hard to remember.
(24:47):
The only thing that stuck in my mind was one
of the police officers said to me, this is the
hardest part of my job, and I just thought, okay,
thank you, I'm sorry for you. You know. I don't
know why that just stuck with me. And I wouldn't
(25:09):
say I was emotionless, but I just I couldn't do anything.
I just kind of sat there.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Did you get the chance to see her after that?
Speaker 8 (25:23):
Well, they told us right away, something like this is
not like you see on TV. We have a way
of identifying bodies without you, don't you know, you don't
have to come in. And I did not want to
see her. I didn't. I didn't want any memory like that.
(25:48):
And it maybe seems odd, but I am so glad
that I never have to go back and have that
picture mind, because I only have beautiful memories and I
know it was a terrible thing that happened to her.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
How was your husband and your sons that night? How
did they react?
Speaker 8 (26:16):
I mean, my husband just immediately broke down. We went
kind of straight home after this happened. We wanted to
get home to the boys and we just I remember
we just all got into our bed and we were
just kind of holding each other or just laying there.
(26:39):
It just was terrible.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
The next couple of days after Veronica was killed, how
do you all together get each other through it?
Speaker 8 (26:52):
Not very well? Not very well at all. I do
remember I was in shock for i'd say at least
a couple of days. And then we started having all
these this family coming in and people contacting us, and
it was it was chaos.
Speaker 3 (27:12):
Knowing that the perpetrator that we still don't know anything about,
did you know at that point that he had taken
his own life, that he had shot himself.
Speaker 5 (27:21):
After yes, okay, yes, okay, so we we knew pretty quick.
And I that is one thing that I also, you
find everything to be grateful for.
Speaker 8 (27:35):
I'm grateful that it wasn't unknown or that we had
to go through a trial.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
Were you angry at all?
Speaker 8 (27:46):
I never had those feelings. I never, I never did.
I know, everyone has circumstances, and I just I thought
this kid, I'm going to call him a kid, but
he wasn't a kid. Well, he was very young. He
was in so much pain, and I look and say,
(28:09):
my daughter was so happy, so focused on what she
was doing and what she wanted to do. That it
just no, I did not I didn't feel angry. I
never had that.
Speaker 3 (28:28):
So would that all media coverage? How did that affect
your grieving process?
Speaker 8 (28:36):
During that whole period, I felt like I was still
in some kind of shock and I just was going
through the motions. They put together a memorial at Weslake
High School immediately, I think it was the Monday after
it happened, so we needed to go up to the
(28:58):
high school and and it was just packed and it
was it was beautiful what they did. And then I
know when we were leaving, I saw all the water
polo girls all got in the pool afterwards, which was
pretty cool.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
I read an article about that and how everybody showed.
Speaker 8 (29:21):
Up wearing purple yes yes in honor of her.
Speaker 3 (29:25):
How proud does that make you of Veronica?
Speaker 8 (29:29):
Oh? Immensely, immensely. It just it was. I mean, it
gave me a lot of warmth. And I know she
would have loved it too.
Speaker 3 (29:38):
So what was the hardest part of navigating that immediate aftermath?
Speaker 8 (29:45):
Many days of just not wanting to be around, not
wanting to feel that pain, just seeing how it affected
the boys and my husband and I just didn't know
how we would ever go back to normal. I didn't know.
(30:06):
I couldn't see a path forward, and it just felt
very desperate. It's very hard.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Let's get into what we know about Elliott Roger? Yes,
how did you learn about him?
Speaker 8 (30:21):
Just by reading things on the internet? And I remember
reading a couple pages of the Manifesto at one point
and again just kind of turned away from that. I
just I spent many years where I didn't want to
hear anything about him. I really didn't. So it has
(30:44):
only been recently, in the last year that I've learned
just how much he's revered or whatever it is. And again,
that's just very sad, very sad.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
He was considered what they call an in cell. Yes,
had you ever heard that term before? No, no idea
what that even is?
Speaker 8 (31:12):
No? Not at the time.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
How much of that did you get into when you're
learning about Elliott Roger?
Speaker 8 (31:18):
Very very high level. I just wanted to focus on
her memory, but you couldn't. Throughout the years, it became
where you couldn't watch a movie or a TV show
without it became like, oh, well, yeah, this is just
part of our culture now.
Speaker 3 (31:38):
Yeah, so he committed to the side. Afterwards, you didn't
get to get a guilty verdict, he didn't get a
prison sentence. Did you ever feel robbed of that?
Speaker 8 (31:49):
Absolutely not. I thought that was probably the best ending
for him. I knew enough to know how how long
he had suffered from different problems and never been accepted
or just different things like that. And no, I do
(32:14):
think about the people that have to face their sons
or their daughters killer in court, and that would be
the last thing I would want to do when there.
Speaker 3 (32:28):
Is a trial. You know, there's graphic photos that they
show from crime scenes, and that was one thing you
said you never wanted to see.
Speaker 8 (32:36):
I didn't if I could just add as a mother,
you know, sometimes you question yourself, like I thought, what
mother would not want to see every part of their
child or what had happened to them or so I
questioned that for a little bit, but then had to
(32:58):
go back to, well, no, this is me personally, this
is I have to deal with this, and I shouldn't
feel bad about not wanting to do that and not
doing it.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
You know, you said you have nothing but great, beautiful
memories of her, and that's what that's what's important, that's
what matters.
Speaker 8 (33:19):
Yes, yes, so knowing this.
Speaker 3 (33:23):
This world that he was in and now he's become
like this martyr for this community because there have been
other incidents where people have gotten very violent, there's been
other murders and would use his name as like a
hero and they looked up to him. How does that
(33:46):
make you feel when you know that people are putting
him on a pedestal for something so evil even.
Speaker 8 (33:54):
I mean again, I feel sadness for those people. I
just feel sadness for them, sadness for their parents. I mean,
I could have a child that ended up being like that.
You know, you don't. You would hope not, but you
never know. And again, I just it's it's very sad,
(34:16):
very sad.
Speaker 3 (34:17):
A lot of people would be just mad and angry
and cursing in every which way. But you said you
said that you felt sorry for him.
Speaker 8 (34:27):
I mean, I think about it seemed twenty four to
seven for this person. I mean, you don't know that,
but he was feeling desperate, sad. Just I don't want
anyone to feel like that. I don't naturally have that emotion.
I do get mad, but at things, but when it
(34:50):
comes to people and what they do. I mean, this
life can be very difficult and people look experience very
bizarre things, and this world is more and more challenging
each day, and the Internet and it's it's very complicated.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
Do you keep any trinkets of hers around?
Speaker 8 (35:19):
I do? I do? Can I grab it?
Speaker 3 (35:22):
Yes? Please?
Speaker 5 (35:23):
Do?
Speaker 8 (35:23):
Okay? So, I mean her freshman year, she wasn't good
enough to play water polo at UCSB, which didn't bother
her at all. Just a week before she died, she said, Mom,
I really I'm going to start swimming again, but I
(35:46):
don't have a cap or goggles. So I said, we'll
just order them on our Amazon get you know, get them.
And I remember it was a week before. When we
went to pack up her room, it was so organized
and neat, like everything was in its place. But I
(36:09):
found her little sport bag with goggles and her and
a cap that she already had, and it just like
when she said she was going to do something, it
just it was done. And so these are actually right
on my bed. So it's like little things like that
(36:29):
that really warm your heart.
Speaker 1 (36:35):
Next time on in cells it is.
Speaker 7 (36:38):
Absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out, only
have online community.
Speaker 3 (36:45):
He had planned this.
Speaker 2 (36:46):
There's clear evidence at least a week prior, including a
note in his notes heap on his phone entitled murder suicide.
Speaker 11 (36:56):
Most of their anger, most of their hatred is actually
reserved for the women.
Speaker 4 (37:02):
So this idea of six six six six feet tall
six figure incomes six inches plus.
Speaker 7 (37:09):
That's the ideal man.
Speaker 1 (37:12):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is
produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Additional producing by Connor Powell and Carolyn Miller, editing by
Jeff Tooi music by Vanikore Studios. In Cells is a
(37:36):
production of KAT Studios and iHeart Radio. For more podcasts
like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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