December 3, 2025 • 27 mins
Our producers reflect on their deep dive into the world of incels and the broader manosphere, exploring the loneliness, online pressures, and cultural forces shaping young men today.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
a deadly tipping point. In Cells will be added to
the Terrorism Guide.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I see literally zero hope.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
This is in Cells a production of KT Studios and
iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode twelve. Behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
With Looks Maxine. It's all about making themselves better for
someone else that is not there.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
You must change. You are not acceptable to society, You're
not acceptable to women, You're not acceptable to whatever your
aspirations are.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an
identity that could also be what triggers young people to
feel like this is the place for them to learn.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT's Studios. To step
back and reflect on what we've learned making the series,
Stephanie Leideker, Connor Powell, Gabriel Castillo and I sat down
for a producer round table. We dug into everything our
own preconceived notions going into this project, the surprises that
challenged us, and now the broader manosphere shaped the stories
(01:19):
we uncovered. Stephanie begins explaining the impetus for the series
and why now felt like the right time to do it.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
In Cells has been one of those projects that's been
close to my heart as a company. We've heard the
word in cells for a really long time, and it's
kind of been one of those things that we hear
about but don't totally understand fully, and over the course
of the last few years, it feels like it's one
of those words that keeps popping up again and again
(01:48):
and again. And suddenly it was mainstream, which seemed like
something that was very fringe in that nobody really heard
much about. All of a sudden, it was on the
ticker of most news shows, and maybe for reasons that
I can't quite explain. Number One Brian Coberger's case. Listen,
He's not an inceell. He's never been identified as an inceell,
(02:08):
but it was something that hit the ether when we
were covering that case, because that word came up so
many times.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Stephanie's referencing convicted murderer Brian Coberger, who's serving four life
sentences without parole for killing four University of Idaho students.
Kylie Gonzalvez, Madison, Mogen Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle. Kid
Studios produced the Idaho Student Murders documentary for Peacock and
three seasons of the Idaho Masacre podcast. It was a
(02:39):
year's long endeavor.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
And again, Courtney, you and I we've been working on
cases surrounding in cells for a really long time, and
suddenly it seemed like it was one of those things
that we had to dig deeper into. I mean, look,
we make a lot of true crime podcasts and documentaries
and we walk into a lot of dark spaces. That's
the spirit of what we do every day. This is
(03:02):
one that I think we all need to know more about,
understand better, and it's really something just to keep us
all safe. I think the takeaway for me is that
not every in cell or someone who identifies as an
inceell is dangerous. Not every person who identifies as an
inceel is going to be violent.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
We know that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
However, when looking at a pocket of people on the
dark web as a large net, these are dangerous places
that are not really monitored. So without us talking about
it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves
or protect those that we love.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So when you talked about it, sort of preconceived notions,
and my go in was every in cell was sort
of aggressive and hate filled. And the beautiful work that
Gabe and Connor did in connecting with self identifying in cells,
the depth of the sadness.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And the loneliness, that's a big piece of this. I
will say too. You know, in cells to me always
had a violent underbelly, and I think now going through
this journey, it's really showing this is a real story
about loneliness. This is a story about feeling outside of
the norm, which frankly is the norm. Who doesn't feel
(04:19):
left out, who doesn't feel alone in the world sometimes right,
So imagine that feeling without context to the fact that
it will get better. As adults, we sort of learned
this because we've been forced to. But now the target
audience is young people, and I think now we can
all kind of look at ourselves, look at our computers differently,
(04:39):
and look what we're researching online and frankly, what is
finding us online? It's big business. We are the commodity.
We are big business. What I really see though, is
there is a loneliness and a feeling of being disenfranchised
and left out, and therefore you want to belong at
(05:00):
all costs. Something like this is the perfect entry.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Gabriel Cristio, a producer at KT Studios, talks about his
perception of the topic of in cells at the beginning
of the series and goes on to explain how that's
evolved over time.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I began on this project early on by reaching out
to self identifying in cells. Carolyn and I, another producer
on the show, realized pretty quickly that many of them
were less responsive to outreach from a woman. So I
ended up taking the lead on those conversations and outreach,
and that approach made it much easier to connect, and
it's ultimately how we were able to speak with most
(05:38):
of the self identified in cells featured on this project.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Going into in cells, did you have any thoughts or
preconceived notions or expectations.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I definitely came in with some preconceived ideas about what
in in cell meant. Once I started hearing people's personal stories,
everyone I spoke with had a different path into the
community and a different relation chip to the label. There's
a whole range of experiences that I didn't fully understand
before this project.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Whether it's Lewis or mister East or New Cold Squid,
did anything surprise you? And speaking with them.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I think just how much each one wanted to have
a conversation to just speak with what they would refer
to me as enormies, but really someone who wasn't there
to judge or argue, but just to listen, you know,
and learn from their experiences. Many of them opened up
more than I expected for a first time interaction. One
(06:37):
of them even told me at the end of our
conversation that the interview felt like shouting into the void,
except maybe for once, the void wasn't feeding into their
negative thoughts. It was just someone who wanted to feel heard. Right,
So connection, Yes, connection, A lot of these self identifying
endzels were really just seeking a connection.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I have to say. That's what I feel like I
learned most throughout this whole process is that the fundamental issue,
as simplistic as it sounds, is lack of connection. It
is loneliness. It is not being heard, it is not
feeling like you're valued, and therefore you don't know where
to go to it except for too many places that
(07:19):
will echo and underline what you're already feeling, and a.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Lot of it is the online forums where there's not
another face behind the camera. A lot of them, I know,
did mention that the very quick interaction that prevents them
from forming a connection are their looks where looks maxing
and all that comes into place and they start trying
to change that to form the connection. And because it's
judged very quickly by how they look, it already creates
a barrier for that connection for them to happen. Whereas
(07:45):
someone on an online forum doesn't really know, might not
even care, you know, which is why a lot of
these in cell forms continue to grow.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
With your time on the in cell boards, was it
what you expected or were you you surprised by any
language content, any takeaways.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I was surprised at how receptive they were into wanting
to speak, and as soon as I introduced myself as
a male, responses were much quicker and they wanted to
engage a lot of them wanted to address misconceptions, or
some of them you just wanted to share their story
and their perspectives about and sell them. I honestly expected
a lot of hostility, like I was going to be
(08:27):
mocked or dismissed, but instead, I think approaching with an
open mind seemed to set the tone for a lot
of these conversations. I also learned a lot about the
nuances within these communities, the differences between Black Pill, Red Pill,
Blue Pill.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Investigative journalist and KAT Studio's producer, Connor Powell weighs in
on how his personal perspective has changed after working on
this podcast. He spent a lot of time on INSUL
forums as well as speaking with self identifying and CELLS
journalists and experts.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Anytime you sort of see like a young man who
is socially awkward or disconnected from society, I sort of
went along with the idea that, oh he's an inseel.
After researching talking to people who are self described in cells,
I understand now that it's a little bit more of
a specific term, and I'm not using the word as
(09:24):
flippantly maybe as I would have in the past. And
I think I've even said to a couple of people
and like, let's be careful how we use the word intel.
It describes a very specific personality and set of issues
that this person is going through.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
In speaking to the en cells, was there anything that
surprised you with that.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
I spent a lot of time on the message boards
as well, trying to sort of get a feel, and
there really is a wide ray of people who are
in that sort of in cell categories. There's young that
are sort of angry. There are older that are more
I don't want to say content, but are more or
sober about where they are in life. And I wasn't
(10:03):
really expecting for there to be such a wide array
of personalities under the banner.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Was there anything that surprised you of being specifically on
insul forums?
Speaker 4 (10:15):
The main in cell forums were way more vile and
disgusting than I was expecting. And I say that as
somebody who consumes social media on what was Twitter and
now is x and sees a lot of things on
social media platforms that are vile, racist, misogynistic. The in
cell platforms are, as far as I can tell, the
(10:37):
worst of the worst. At the same time, I was
surprised that there were other communities of in cells on Facebook, Discord,
in a couple other places that were way less racist
and misogynistic than I was expecting. I do think if
you are somebody who is struggling with either in cell
culture or insul life or self described in cell. You
(10:58):
can go sort of down two paths. You can find
people who collectively want to improve their lot in life,
or you can go down the other path, which is
burn it all down and just be angry. But the websites,
they are way more frightening than I was expecting.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You participated a lot in the episode where we talked
about the importance of the algorithm. Do you have any
sort of global final thoughts on the algorithm or particularly
how it's been proved over and over? Twelve year old boys,
as an example, can be easily fed this. They don't
need to go looking for this material, It goes looking
(11:37):
for them.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
The algorithms are really frightening across the board because, as
we know with like it will force content on you
that is going to get you upset. It never forces
content on you that will increase their mental sobriety. And
the thing I've been thinking a lot in the last
couple of weeks after this project was if AI is
the sort of next version of technology. It's almost like
(12:01):
you're going to supercharge these algorithms, and so like, what
are we going to be pushed what types of answers
to questions do we have If you look at where
technology and the technology companies have gone with the algorithms
for social media, it's hard not to be really scared
about what AI is going to produce in our lives.
Because they haven't shown any real responsible actions in terms
(12:22):
of what they're producing in the content for social media.
It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good,
helpful content out of the AI algorithm.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Connor raises an important question about the potential
(13:03):
of AI supercharging the push of the most harmful content
to the most vulnerable users. Stephanie picks it up from here.
Think about it.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know, these are the ages where we're most vulnerable
preteen teenage years. So that's the target audience who has
literally no context, no perspective of the outside world. So
I got to be honest. Even as an adult who
works in true crime on a daily basis, we hear
some of the darkest, scariest things every single day.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
It turns out I didn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I didn't even know the basics, And thankfully, through the
research here and this podcast, I feel like all of
us are wiser, are smarter, and more informed.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Understanding that we're the product, that our attention is the
business model. It changes the way you see the entire
online ecosystem. It also forces a harder conversation about responsibility
and prevention. What actions do we take, who do we
turn to? Stephanie continues with a focus on looking forward.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
How do we work with each other to better understand
what our kids are doing, whether you have a preschooler
or somebody that you love as an adult that's spending
too much time online. It's just information is power, and
I think the spirit of this is to be proactive,
and thankfully we're discussing it. Honestly, we have to go
to dark corners to really see what the answers are,
(14:31):
and it's uncomfortable. Everybody thinks, not my kid, not my neighbor,
and little do you know, it's happening kind of everywhere,
and we're all impressionable.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
The totality of stuff we've learned through experts, through having
the information laid out in black and white. And then
also what sat with me the most was how, like
you said, this is all kind of really these groups
are happening everywhere in different forms starting small and coming
(15:02):
at children. It's an active thing that's really coming at
the next generation in general.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
The spirit of this podcast is not to scare anybody.
We're not looking to regurgitate and blame. But it's really
powerful stuff. When you listen to a victim's mom and
hear their harrowing story, it's impossible not to feel connected.
It's impossible not to want to protect your own kids,
and I think that's a spirit of all of this.
We are looking to be productive. This has been a
(15:29):
very info based podcast that I think we're all incredibly
proud of because it's not just one case. This is everywhere,
and it's not just about in cells anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
The manosphere is far larger and far more influential than
I realized as a woman. In my feed looks nothing
like what young men are seeing, and I had little
sense of just how popular these voices had become. Here's
investigative journalist and Katie's Studios producer Conor Powell.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
The manisphere, I think, is to some extent, selling young
men a Hollywood action film every single day. It's Rambo,
it's Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's strong, muscular, wealthy. This is what
manhood is with no exceptions and really no qualifications, that
this could be a part of manhood, but it's maybe
(16:23):
not all of manhood. And it feels to me like
if they're just selling up that two hour movie escapism,
but they're selling that this is real life, and how
confusing that can be for young men and even young
women I guess as well. I mean they see this
stuff and think, oh, this is what a man is.
If you go down that path, you are only.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
In a dated with that.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
You're not being inundated by people who are strong and
intellectually smart. You're not seeing people who are athletes scholars
as well. You're just onto the guns, knives, women, boxing, mma,
fast cars. Right, that's the path you go down.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to go to
the desert to have photo shoots. They rent a Lamborghini
and give these guys a pair of sunglasses and they're like,
we're going to take your picture and your life's going
to be great.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
It's almost like what you see having worked in like
TV production. You see music videos where these rappers or
rock bands are on the set of their music video
and there's weapons and there's sunglasses, and there's women and
then they yell cut and all that gets taken away
and you're just sort of left with somebody who's a musician.
And again, nothing wrong with it, but like, that's a
(17:35):
music video for three minutes, and this is Andrew Tata
selling this as a lifestyle, that this is the only
way to live.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Stephanie Way's in on what we learned about the manosphere,
toxic masculinity, and how these forces shape the lives of
young men today.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
These are words that get tossed around so commonly, toxic masculinity,
What does it mean to be a man? What does
it mean to be masculine? These are things that we
see in pop culture all of the time, but at
its core, what.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Does it mean?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
What it really means is maybe there's an epidemic right
now of young men who don't have a total clear
vision of what that's supposed to look like. We look
at some of the influencers in this world and what
they're tapping into is something very real, which is men
want to feel masculine, they want to feel accepted, and
the playbook on how to be a masculine man has changed,
(18:28):
and now we're throwing around the word toxic or toxicity,
which again is becoming sort of this catchphrase, but what
does that really mean? And I think through this process,
we've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity,
not feeling handsome enough, not feeling strong enough, not feeling
popular enough, not feeling wealthy enough. That could also be
(18:49):
the perfect storm for what triggers young people to feel
like this is the place for them to learn, it's not.
The place for them to learn is within the community
of every life in person. And I think sometimes the
men online that are sort of branding masculinity and how
to be the perfect man, they're getting paid for that,
(19:11):
and that casheh is costing society a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. Stephanie Lai Dugger picks up with her thoughts
(19:44):
on the self proclaimed king of the Manisphere and why,
when there's such a lack of positive role models for
young men, it's not at all surprising that his message
finds a large audience.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Andrew Tate, for example, is a complicated one and this
man has not been formally charged with anything that has stuck.
So is he being charged incorrectly, or is he praying
on young people who really lack a man in their lives,
someone who really lacks someone to identify with. Here's this
guy saying, look at me, I have money, i have influence,
(20:19):
I'm powerful, I'm good looking, I'm in shape. Women love me.
Listen to me. You can see how intoxicating that might be.
But we got to remember kindness counts, and true wisdom
comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in
the world, and that being online endlessly for hours and
hours on end, which, by the way, we all have been.
(20:41):
There's no judgment in it, but it's a real hard
transition into the real world when your actual life feels
like it's within your computer. We've indoctrinated a generation to
actually live their lives online, we've all had to, but
imagine being a young person, and now we're saying, oh, no, no, no, no,
you can't do that. The real world is out there,
(21:02):
even though it wasn't for so long. So I think
we need to give grace to this next generation and
applaud them for navigating as best as possible, and.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Also give them the tools.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And I think we're all doing that together. Which is
why I think this particular project has affected us all
so much.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Gabriel Cristio brings a different lens to all of this.
He's a producer on the series, but also a man
in his early twenties, so basically he's living inside the
very ecosystem we've been examining.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Here's Gabriel from my own personal beliefs. I don't agree
with the whole Andrew Tait persona and stick, but I
came in thinking that that's what an intel was, those
type of men. That's exactly what I picture when I
think Intel, and knowing that it's more or so part
(21:53):
of the red pill community, speaking with a lot of
self identifying black pillars and them telling me it's a
lot of red Pill stuff. Andrew Taite is not an inceel,
I think is kind of what really drew that fine
line in between these overlapping communities. That was a major
learning curve for me.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Was there anything in the topic of looks maxing that
surprised you?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
What really surprised me is how serious this is taken.
I assume people were just trying to improve their health
or work on themselves, you know, like you see online
people changing routines or going to the gym after or
a breakup to feel better. But in the in cell community,
looks Maxing isn't about self improvement for themselves at all,
you know, It's about presenting a version of themselves for
(22:40):
someone who may or may not even be there, and
it's less about personal growth and more about trying to
fit into a world that hasn't given them a sense
of connection.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Connor Powell picks up the looks Maxing conversation and is
followed by final thoughts from Stephanie Leidecker.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
The looks maxine and the Transmaxing where two concepts and
ideas that I just hadn't really stumbled across. And I
also just think it's sort of another data point of
how disconnected people are in these communities, and young people
in particular, and how all of these concepts from social
media are just really destructive for relationships, really destructive for
(23:26):
connection between human beings, and sometimes like part of life
is talking to people, talking to your friends or family,
and if your life is spent trying to achieve some
sort of physical look so that it looks better on
social media or tracks people, you can just see how
that is really self destructive.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
What I was struck by is the journalist the Portughu
painted was you get sucked in a little bit in
looks maxing because you're already a little bit insecure, and
then you are just hammered by the world of the
internet telling you your ugly. It can make things so
much worse.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
It was sad, not just that you're ugly, but then
you're sort of also not manly enough. It's like you
need to improve your looks, but you also need to
tough enough because women only want an attractive, tough guy.
It's not just attacking the way you look, it's also
attacking the way you act, the way you might feel
about yourself. For these people who are looking for some
(24:23):
health and beauty tips, you know on the male side,
they're almost immediately getting pounded with mental health crisis and
image crisis. This is unacceptable. You must change. You are
not acceptable to society, You're not acceptable to women, You're
not acceptable to whatever your aspirations are.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Just so sad how the Internet at large. You go
there because maybe you want to feel better about yourself
and look, and then two clicks in, you're having the
Internet at large tell you you are ugly and hideous,
and it's just it's such a bad mirror. It's such
an unrealistic mirror too.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So I don't know that I would have survived this
time as a young person. It was hard enough before
we had computers. You know, you lack identity. You want
to fit in, you want to be beautiful, you want
to be handsome, you want to be accepted, you want
the cool clothes, you want to be in shape, you
want to have the cash.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Some of that's not completely realistic.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And I think acceptance of where we are as humans
and sort of digging in a little deeper than how
great our hair is is an important factor. And listen,
we used to say this even as young girls. Oh
all the magazines, Oh the Cosmo magazines, And now the
Internet it's making us all feel so small, and yeah,
it's hard to live up to that. And I think
(25:40):
what we're seeing now is that men who maybe young boys,
who maybe weren't under that same pressure, are really under
that same pressure.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
And I don't know that I appreciated that quite as much.
I definitely did not realize how that had increased.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You talk about looks maxing, just the word alone, looks
like you don't actually fit in the world unless your
looks are maxed. Think about that and like, the truth
is that's inaccurate. Suddenly it seems like it's not just
a thing that's affecting young girls. I think it is
now even Stephen, and that is not something we want
to be even Stephen about. The level of equality that
(26:18):
everyone's talking about is actually the complete opposite of what
this is. There is so much space in the world
for goodness and kindness and bravery and courage and hard
work and consistency and determination.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Those are the qualities that make for an extraordinary man.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
We're relying on this generation of young men to lead
us into this better day.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is
produced by Stephanie Laideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by
Jeff Tooi music by Vanicore Studios. In Cells is a
(27:08):
production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts
like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
From the dark corners of the web. An emerging mindset.
Speaker 2 (00:03):
I'm a loser if also we know wouldn't pay me either.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
a deadly tipping point. In Cells will be added to
the Terrorism Guide.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
I see literally zero hope.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
This is in Cells a production of KT Studios and
iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode twelve. Behind the scenes.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
With Looks Maxine. It's all about making themselves better for
someone else that is not there.
Speaker 4 (00:38):
You must change. You are not acceptable to society, You're
not acceptable to women, You're not acceptable to whatever your
aspirations are.
Speaker 2 (00:45):
We've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an
identity that could also be what triggers young people to
feel like this is the place for them to learn.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at KT's Studios. To step
back and reflect on what we've learned making the series,
Stephanie Leideker, Connor Powell, Gabriel Castillo and I sat down
for a producer round table. We dug into everything our
own preconceived notions going into this project, the surprises that
challenged us, and now the broader manosphere shaped the stories
(01:19):
we uncovered. Stephanie begins explaining the impetus for the series
and why now felt like the right time to do it.
Speaker 2 (01:28):
In Cells has been one of those projects that's been
close to my heart as a company. We've heard the
word in cells for a really long time, and it's
kind of been one of those things that we hear
about but don't totally understand fully, and over the course
of the last few years, it feels like it's one
of those words that keeps popping up again and again
(01:48):
and again. And suddenly it was mainstream, which seemed like
something that was very fringe in that nobody really heard
much about. All of a sudden, it was on the
ticker of most news shows, and maybe for reasons that
I can't quite explain. Number One Brian Coberger's case. Listen,
He's not an inceell. He's never been identified as an inceell,
(02:08):
but it was something that hit the ether when we
were covering that case, because that word came up so
many times.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
Stephanie's referencing convicted murderer Brian Coberger, who's serving four life
sentences without parole for killing four University of Idaho students.
Kylie Gonzalvez, Madison, Mogen Ethan Chapin, and Xana Kernodle. Kid
Studios produced the Idaho Student Murders documentary for Peacock and
three seasons of the Idaho Masacre podcast. It was a
(02:39):
year's long endeavor.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
And again, Courtney, you and I we've been working on
cases surrounding in cells for a really long time, and
suddenly it seemed like it was one of those things
that we had to dig deeper into. I mean, look,
we make a lot of true crime podcasts and documentaries
and we walk into a lot of dark spaces. That's
the spirit of what we do every day. This is
(03:02):
one that I think we all need to know more about,
understand better, and it's really something just to keep us
all safe. I think the takeaway for me is that
not every in cell or someone who identifies as an
inceell is dangerous. Not every person who identifies as an
inceel is going to be violent.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
We know that.
Speaker 2 (03:22):
However, when looking at a pocket of people on the
dark web as a large net, these are dangerous places
that are not really monitored. So without us talking about
it and understanding it better, it's impossible to protect ourselves
or protect those that we love.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
So when you talked about it, sort of preconceived notions,
and my go in was every in cell was sort
of aggressive and hate filled. And the beautiful work that
Gabe and Connor did in connecting with self identifying in cells,
the depth of the sadness.
Speaker 2 (03:59):
And the loneliness, that's a big piece of this. I
will say too. You know, in cells to me always
had a violent underbelly, and I think now going through
this journey, it's really showing this is a real story
about loneliness. This is a story about feeling outside of
the norm, which frankly is the norm. Who doesn't feel
(04:19):
left out, who doesn't feel alone in the world sometimes right,
So imagine that feeling without context to the fact that
it will get better. As adults, we sort of learned
this because we've been forced to. But now the target
audience is young people, and I think now we can
all kind of look at ourselves, look at our computers differently,
(04:39):
and look what we're researching online and frankly, what is
finding us online? It's big business. We are the commodity.
We are big business. What I really see though, is
there is a loneliness and a feeling of being disenfranchised
and left out, and therefore you want to belong at
(05:00):
all costs. Something like this is the perfect entry.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Gabriel Cristio, a producer at KT Studios, talks about his
perception of the topic of in cells at the beginning
of the series and goes on to explain how that's
evolved over time.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I began on this project early on by reaching out
to self identifying in cells. Carolyn and I, another producer
on the show, realized pretty quickly that many of them
were less responsive to outreach from a woman. So I
ended up taking the lead on those conversations and outreach,
and that approach made it much easier to connect, and
it's ultimately how we were able to speak with most
(05:38):
of the self identified in cells featured on this project.
Speaker 1 (05:41):
Going into in cells, did you have any thoughts or
preconceived notions or expectations.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
I definitely came in with some preconceived ideas about what
in in cell meant. Once I started hearing people's personal stories,
everyone I spoke with had a different path into the
community and a different relation chip to the label. There's
a whole range of experiences that I didn't fully understand
before this project.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Whether it's Lewis or mister East or New Cold Squid,
did anything surprise you? And speaking with them.
Speaker 3 (06:15):
I think just how much each one wanted to have
a conversation to just speak with what they would refer
to me as enormies, but really someone who wasn't there
to judge or argue, but just to listen, you know,
and learn from their experiences. Many of them opened up
more than I expected for a first time interaction. One
(06:37):
of them even told me at the end of our
conversation that the interview felt like shouting into the void,
except maybe for once, the void wasn't feeding into their
negative thoughts. It was just someone who wanted to feel heard. Right,
So connection, Yes, connection, A lot of these self identifying
endzels were really just seeking a connection.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
I have to say. That's what I feel like I
learned most throughout this whole process is that the fundamental issue,
as simplistic as it sounds, is lack of connection. It
is loneliness. It is not being heard, it is not
feeling like you're valued, and therefore you don't know where
to go to it except for too many places that
(07:19):
will echo and underline what you're already feeling, and a.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Lot of it is the online forums where there's not
another face behind the camera. A lot of them, I know,
did mention that the very quick interaction that prevents them
from forming a connection are their looks where looks maxing
and all that comes into place and they start trying
to change that to form the connection. And because it's
judged very quickly by how they look, it already creates
a barrier for that connection for them to happen. Whereas
(07:45):
someone on an online forum doesn't really know, might not
even care, you know, which is why a lot of
these in cell forms continue to grow.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
With your time on the in cell boards, was it
what you expected or were you you surprised by any
language content, any takeaways.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
I was surprised at how receptive they were into wanting
to speak, and as soon as I introduced myself as
a male, responses were much quicker and they wanted to
engage a lot of them wanted to address misconceptions, or
some of them you just wanted to share their story
and their perspectives about and sell them. I honestly expected
a lot of hostility, like I was going to be
(08:27):
mocked or dismissed, but instead, I think approaching with an
open mind seemed to set the tone for a lot
of these conversations. I also learned a lot about the
nuances within these communities, the differences between Black Pill, Red Pill,
Blue Pill.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Investigative journalist and KAT Studio's producer, Connor Powell weighs in
on how his personal perspective has changed after working on
this podcast. He spent a lot of time on INSUL
forums as well as speaking with self identifying and CELLS
journalists and experts.
Speaker 4 (09:04):
Anytime you sort of see like a young man who
is socially awkward or disconnected from society, I sort of
went along with the idea that, oh he's an inseel.
After researching talking to people who are self described in cells,
I understand now that it's a little bit more of
a specific term, and I'm not using the word as
(09:24):
flippantly maybe as I would have in the past. And
I think I've even said to a couple of people
and like, let's be careful how we use the word intel.
It describes a very specific personality and set of issues
that this person is going through.
Speaker 1 (09:37):
In speaking to the en cells, was there anything that
surprised you with that.
Speaker 4 (09:41):
I spent a lot of time on the message boards
as well, trying to sort of get a feel, and
there really is a wide ray of people who are
in that sort of in cell categories. There's young that
are sort of angry. There are older that are more
I don't want to say content, but are more or
sober about where they are in life. And I wasn't
(10:03):
really expecting for there to be such a wide array
of personalities under the banner.
Speaker 1 (10:09):
Was there anything that surprised you of being specifically on
insul forums?
Speaker 4 (10:15):
The main in cell forums were way more vile and
disgusting than I was expecting. And I say that as
somebody who consumes social media on what was Twitter and
now is x and sees a lot of things on
social media platforms that are vile, racist, misogynistic. The in
cell platforms are, as far as I can tell, the
(10:37):
worst of the worst. At the same time, I was
surprised that there were other communities of in cells on Facebook, Discord,
in a couple other places that were way less racist
and misogynistic than I was expecting. I do think if
you are somebody who is struggling with either in cell
culture or insul life or self described in cell. You
(10:58):
can go sort of down two paths. You can find
people who collectively want to improve their lot in life,
or you can go down the other path, which is
burn it all down and just be angry. But the websites,
they are way more frightening than I was expecting.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
You participated a lot in the episode where we talked
about the importance of the algorithm. Do you have any
sort of global final thoughts on the algorithm or particularly
how it's been proved over and over? Twelve year old boys,
as an example, can be easily fed this. They don't
need to go looking for this material, It goes looking
(11:37):
for them.
Speaker 4 (11:39):
The algorithms are really frightening across the board because, as
we know with like it will force content on you
that is going to get you upset. It never forces
content on you that will increase their mental sobriety. And
the thing I've been thinking a lot in the last
couple of weeks after this project was if AI is
the sort of next version of technology. It's almost like
(12:01):
you're going to supercharge these algorithms, and so like, what
are we going to be pushed what types of answers
to questions do we have If you look at where
technology and the technology companies have gone with the algorithms
for social media, it's hard not to be really scared
about what AI is going to produce in our lives.
Because they haven't shown any real responsible actions in terms
(12:22):
of what they're producing in the content for social media.
It's hard to think that they're going to produce productive, good,
helpful content out of the AI algorithm.
Speaker 1 (12:37):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Connor raises an important question about the potential
(13:03):
of AI supercharging the push of the most harmful content
to the most vulnerable users. Stephanie picks it up from here.
Think about it.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
You know, these are the ages where we're most vulnerable
preteen teenage years. So that's the target audience who has
literally no context, no perspective of the outside world. So
I got to be honest. Even as an adult who
works in true crime on a daily basis, we hear
some of the darkest, scariest things every single day.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
It turns out I didn't know anything.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
I didn't even know the basics, And thankfully, through the
research here and this podcast, I feel like all of
us are wiser, are smarter, and more informed.
Speaker 1 (13:49):
Understanding that we're the product, that our attention is the
business model. It changes the way you see the entire
online ecosystem. It also forces a harder conversation about responsibility
and prevention. What actions do we take, who do we
turn to? Stephanie continues with a focus on looking forward.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
How do we work with each other to better understand
what our kids are doing, whether you have a preschooler
or somebody that you love as an adult that's spending
too much time online. It's just information is power, and
I think the spirit of this is to be proactive,
and thankfully we're discussing it. Honestly, we have to go
to dark corners to really see what the answers are,
(14:31):
and it's uncomfortable. Everybody thinks, not my kid, not my neighbor,
and little do you know, it's happening kind of everywhere,
and we're all impressionable.
Speaker 1 (14:42):
The totality of stuff we've learned through experts, through having
the information laid out in black and white. And then
also what sat with me the most was how, like
you said, this is all kind of really these groups
are happening everywhere in different forms starting small and coming
(15:02):
at children. It's an active thing that's really coming at
the next generation in general.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
The spirit of this podcast is not to scare anybody.
We're not looking to regurgitate and blame. But it's really
powerful stuff. When you listen to a victim's mom and
hear their harrowing story, it's impossible not to feel connected.
It's impossible not to want to protect your own kids,
and I think that's a spirit of all of this.
We are looking to be productive. This has been a
(15:29):
very info based podcast that I think we're all incredibly
proud of because it's not just one case. This is everywhere,
and it's not just about in cells anymore.
Speaker 1 (15:44):
The manosphere is far larger and far more influential than
I realized as a woman. In my feed looks nothing
like what young men are seeing, and I had little
sense of just how popular these voices had become. Here's
investigative journalist and Katie's Studios producer Conor Powell.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
The manisphere, I think, is to some extent, selling young
men a Hollywood action film every single day. It's Rambo,
it's Arnold Schwarzenegger, it's strong, muscular, wealthy. This is what
manhood is with no exceptions and really no qualifications, that
this could be a part of manhood, but it's maybe
(16:23):
not all of manhood. And it feels to me like
if they're just selling up that two hour movie escapism,
but they're selling that this is real life, and how
confusing that can be for young men and even young
women I guess as well. I mean they see this
stuff and think, oh, this is what a man is.
If you go down that path, you are only.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
In a dated with that.
Speaker 4 (16:45):
You're not being inundated by people who are strong and
intellectually smart. You're not seeing people who are athletes scholars
as well. You're just onto the guns, knives, women, boxing, mma,
fast cars. Right, that's the path you go down.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to go to
the desert to have photo shoots. They rent a Lamborghini
and give these guys a pair of sunglasses and they're like,
we're going to take your picture and your life's going
to be great.
Speaker 4 (17:14):
It's almost like what you see having worked in like
TV production. You see music videos where these rappers or
rock bands are on the set of their music video
and there's weapons and there's sunglasses, and there's women and
then they yell cut and all that gets taken away
and you're just sort of left with somebody who's a musician.
And again, nothing wrong with it, but like, that's a
(17:35):
music video for three minutes, and this is Andrew Tata
selling this as a lifestyle, that this is the only
way to live.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Stephanie Way's in on what we learned about the manosphere,
toxic masculinity, and how these forces shape the lives of
young men today.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
These are words that get tossed around so commonly, toxic masculinity,
What does it mean to be a man? What does
it mean to be masculine? These are things that we
see in pop culture all of the time, but at
its core, what.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Does it mean?
Speaker 2 (18:05):
What it really means is maybe there's an epidemic right
now of young men who don't have a total clear
vision of what that's supposed to look like. We look
at some of the influencers in this world and what
they're tapping into is something very real, which is men
want to feel masculine, they want to feel accepted, and
the playbook on how to be a masculine man has changed,
(18:28):
and now we're throwing around the word toxic or toxicity,
which again is becoming sort of this catchphrase, but what
does that really mean? And I think through this process,
we've learned being lonesome, feeling like you don't have an identity,
not feeling handsome enough, not feeling strong enough, not feeling
popular enough, not feeling wealthy enough. That could also be
(18:49):
the perfect storm for what triggers young people to feel
like this is the place for them to learn, it's not.
The place for them to learn is within the community
of every life in person. And I think sometimes the
men online that are sort of branding masculinity and how
to be the perfect man, they're getting paid for that,
(19:11):
and that casheh is costing society a lot.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. Stephanie Lai Dugger picks up with her thoughts
(19:44):
on the self proclaimed king of the Manisphere and why,
when there's such a lack of positive role models for
young men, it's not at all surprising that his message
finds a large audience.
Speaker 2 (19:57):
Andrew Tate, for example, is a complicated one and this
man has not been formally charged with anything that has stuck.
So is he being charged incorrectly, or is he praying
on young people who really lack a man in their lives,
someone who really lacks someone to identify with. Here's this
guy saying, look at me, I have money, i have influence,
(20:19):
I'm powerful, I'm good looking, I'm in shape. Women love me.
Listen to me. You can see how intoxicating that might be.
But we got to remember kindness counts, and true wisdom
comes from a gentleman who knows where he sits in
the world, and that being online endlessly for hours and
hours on end, which, by the way, we all have been.
(20:41):
There's no judgment in it, but it's a real hard
transition into the real world when your actual life feels
like it's within your computer. We've indoctrinated a generation to
actually live their lives online, we've all had to, but
imagine being a young person, and now we're saying, oh, no, no, no, no,
you can't do that. The real world is out there,
(21:02):
even though it wasn't for so long. So I think
we need to give grace to this next generation and
applaud them for navigating as best as possible, and.
Speaker 1 (21:11):
Also give them the tools.
Speaker 2 (21:13):
And I think we're all doing that together. Which is
why I think this particular project has affected us all
so much.
Speaker 1 (21:19):
Gabriel Cristio brings a different lens to all of this.
He's a producer on the series, but also a man
in his early twenties, so basically he's living inside the
very ecosystem we've been examining.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Here's Gabriel from my own personal beliefs. I don't agree
with the whole Andrew Tait persona and stick, but I
came in thinking that that's what an intel was, those
type of men. That's exactly what I picture when I
think Intel, and knowing that it's more or so part
(21:53):
of the red pill community, speaking with a lot of
self identifying black pillars and them telling me it's a
lot of red Pill stuff. Andrew Taite is not an inceel,
I think is kind of what really drew that fine
line in between these overlapping communities. That was a major
learning curve for me.
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Was there anything in the topic of looks maxing that
surprised you?
Speaker 3 (22:17):
What really surprised me is how serious this is taken.
I assume people were just trying to improve their health
or work on themselves, you know, like you see online
people changing routines or going to the gym after or
a breakup to feel better. But in the in cell community,
looks Maxing isn't about self improvement for themselves at all,
you know, It's about presenting a version of themselves for
(22:40):
someone who may or may not even be there, and
it's less about personal growth and more about trying to
fit into a world that hasn't given them a sense
of connection.
Speaker 1 (22:57):
Connor Powell picks up the looks Maxing conversation and is
followed by final thoughts from Stephanie Leidecker.
Speaker 4 (23:05):
The looks maxine and the Transmaxing where two concepts and
ideas that I just hadn't really stumbled across. And I
also just think it's sort of another data point of
how disconnected people are in these communities, and young people
in particular, and how all of these concepts from social
media are just really destructive for relationships, really destructive for
(23:26):
connection between human beings, and sometimes like part of life
is talking to people, talking to your friends or family,
and if your life is spent trying to achieve some
sort of physical look so that it looks better on
social media or tracks people, you can just see how
that is really self destructive.
Speaker 1 (23:46):
What I was struck by is the journalist the Portughu
painted was you get sucked in a little bit in
looks maxing because you're already a little bit insecure, and
then you are just hammered by the world of the
internet telling you your ugly. It can make things so
much worse.
Speaker 4 (24:02):
It was sad, not just that you're ugly, but then
you're sort of also not manly enough. It's like you
need to improve your looks, but you also need to
tough enough because women only want an attractive, tough guy.
It's not just attacking the way you look, it's also
attacking the way you act, the way you might feel
about yourself. For these people who are looking for some
(24:23):
health and beauty tips, you know on the male side,
they're almost immediately getting pounded with mental health crisis and
image crisis. This is unacceptable. You must change. You are
not acceptable to society, You're not acceptable to women, You're
not acceptable to whatever your aspirations are.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
Just so sad how the Internet at large. You go
there because maybe you want to feel better about yourself
and look, and then two clicks in, you're having the
Internet at large tell you you are ugly and hideous,
and it's just it's such a bad mirror. It's such
an unrealistic mirror too.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
So I don't know that I would have survived this
time as a young person. It was hard enough before
we had computers. You know, you lack identity. You want
to fit in, you want to be beautiful, you want
to be handsome, you want to be accepted, you want
the cool clothes, you want to be in shape, you
want to have the cash.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Some of that's not completely realistic.
Speaker 2 (25:19):
And I think acceptance of where we are as humans
and sort of digging in a little deeper than how
great our hair is is an important factor. And listen,
we used to say this even as young girls. Oh
all the magazines, Oh the Cosmo magazines, And now the
Internet it's making us all feel so small, and yeah,
it's hard to live up to that. And I think
(25:40):
what we're seeing now is that men who maybe young boys,
who maybe weren't under that same pressure, are really under
that same pressure.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
And I don't know that I appreciated that quite as much.
I definitely did not realize how that had increased.
Speaker 2 (25:56):
You talk about looks maxing, just the word alone, looks
like you don't actually fit in the world unless your
looks are maxed. Think about that and like, the truth
is that's inaccurate. Suddenly it seems like it's not just
a thing that's affecting young girls. I think it is
now even Stephen, and that is not something we want
to be even Stephen about. The level of equality that
(26:18):
everyone's talking about is actually the complete opposite of what
this is. There is so much space in the world
for goodness and kindness and bravery and courage and hard
work and consistency and determination.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
Those are the qualities that make for an extraordinary man.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
We're relying on this generation of young men to lead
us into this better day.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at KT Underscore Studios. In Cells is
produced by Stephanie Laideger, Gabriel Castillo and me Courtney Armstrong.
Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by
Jeff Tooi music by Vanicore Studios. In Cells is a
(27:08):
production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts
like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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