September 24, 2025 • 43 mins
What does the “man box” culture, the red, blue, and black pill mean and how can they lead to online radicalization? We uncover online echo chambers that fuel the incel community's cycles of hopelessness and hate. We also hear the heartbreaking story of Bianca Devins, a 17-year-old whose murder and the viral spread of her death images exposed the dangerous overlap between online radicalization, misogyny, and real-world violence.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset
I am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay
me either.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
Pelissea.
Speaker 5 (00:16):
A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people.
Speaker 6 (00:21):
Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which
I will have my revenge.
Speaker 7 (00:27):
Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women
and towards men who get all the women.
Speaker 8 (00:34):
I just told my husband I know she's dead.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio,
Season one, Episode two, Blackpilled. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer
at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell,
and Carolyn Miller. Even as we write this script, the
(01:02):
idea of online radicalization of all forms has been top
of news.
Speaker 9 (01:07):
What we are seeing is people that are being radicalized
typically are high and what's called the dark triad, which
is macavelianism, narcissism, and psychopathy, leading us to believe that
this ideology had infected him and had taken over.
Speaker 10 (01:23):
A lot of us are not immune to the danger
of the kind of radicalization that takes place.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
This goes all the way up to the Senate Judiciary
Committee hearing on September sixteenth. Here's Director of the FBI
Cash Betel, speaking with Senator Lindsay Graham.
Speaker 10 (01:42):
The data shows that social media is wildly out of control.
Speaker 9 (01:45):
This guy's FBI director. He says that social media is
wildly out of control.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Online radicalization of all sorts is becoming more prevalent, specifically
as it relates to an uptick in in cell ideology.
Last episode, we covered the basics of what a self
identifying in cell is, an involuntarily celibate man who often
feels hopeless with his position in life and who can
sometimes turn violent. Here's boys In Hodson, Communications and marketing
(02:15):
director for the Mankind Project. He explains research going on
in this area.
Speaker 10 (02:22):
There is really beautiful research out there from Equamundo than
another organization called Diverting Hate. That have all been kind
of looking at these things, and what they see about
men who get involved in the in cell community is
that they are really attached to adhering to really strict
gender roles around what it means to be a man,
(02:44):
and the more they adhere to that kind of dominance based, hierarchical,
really unhealthy beliefs about women, really unhealthy beliefs about people
of color, a lot of that stuff. And the more
that they get attached to these rigid, unhealthy the ideas
about what it means to be a man, the easier
it is for them to get drawn into hating other people,
(03:06):
to get drawn into self harm and harm of others.
We talk about it as either dominance based masculinity or
the man box culture.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We ask Boyson to explain man box culture.
Speaker 10 (03:19):
The idea of the man box is that most boys
and men that you speak to out there in the world,
they know what they're supposed to do. They know what
fits in the man box. Don't be gay, make a
lot of money, keep your emotions to yourself, man up,
don't hurt, don't share. All of these kinds of things
(03:41):
that you know. Little boys start embodying these things at
four or five years old. They already know what's inside
the box.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
We spoke to Boyson about how these messages get internalized
and what that does to the mindset of in cells.
Speaker 10 (03:59):
So the messages that many of us heard when we
were younger, and this is you know, I'm in my
fifties and I still remember these messages, right. Don't get
vulnerable with other people, don't show your weakness, don't share
your emotions, toughen up. A lot of these messages get internalized,
(04:21):
and from those internalized messages, it is absolutely recipe for isolation.
It is absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out,
only have online community, and restrict your kind of sharing
about what's real and true and vulnerable about who you are.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
To better understand the different ideologies and cells fall into,
we first need to understand the terminology that's used, starting
with red pill and black pill.
Speaker 10 (04:53):
So there's the red pill world where you've woken up
in quotation marks to the fact that you know feminism
has gone too far and men are really the ones
who are being victimized these days, and that is backed
up in the in cell world by this idea of
black pill and the blackpill science that they bring into
this is really flawed versions of evolutionary science or eugenics
(05:21):
that places human beings in very distinct hierarchies. So this
idea of six' six' six six, feet tall six figure
incomes six. Inches plus that's the, ideal, man right and
then every other gradation of society is kind of ranked based.
(05:42):
On that so a lot of the in cell ideology
is based on really bad science that they call, black
pill that they believe is these are the women, Who
succeed these are the men. Who succeed i'm, Not that
i'll never. Be that i'm doomed.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
For a deeper dive into black, pill ideology as well
as the blue and red pill ideologies that go along.
With it we spoke To Doctor david lay who describes
the importance of in cels having their. Own Language doctor
lay is a, clinical psychologist, sex therapist and author of.
Multiple books he also does training for therapists around. The, world.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
So, you, know first it's important to recognize that having,
idiosyncratic terminology having a certain language and terminology that is
native and unique to a community is one of the
ways of building identity because people that are outside the
community don't know what these, terms mean and having the
(06:49):
secret language keeps other people out and it builds this
idea of secret knowledge. And belongingness by not only knowing,
the terms but using the whole pill kind, of concept
you know the red pill and. Blue pill we remember That,
from matrix and, you know the red pill is when
you reject society being the way you've been told it's going,
(07:12):
to be and you decide to see underneath.
Speaker 6 (07:15):
The current.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
The people who do not see underneath the curtain are considered.
Blue pilled this is someone who is not part of
the in cell community and is considered ignorant of what
in cells believe to be the quote truth in the in.
Cell worldview those who are blue pilled believe what we'd
call mainstream ideas. About relationships that personality and emotional connection
(07:42):
are important in attracting, a partner that sex and intimacy
are not commodities controlled solely, by women and that gender
roles in society are not unfairly skewed. Against Men doctor
lay continues describing the, bleakest designation the.
Speaker 11 (07:58):
Black pill, the, blackpill though is somewhat unique to the,
insel community and it is a bleak cynical view that
in seldom being an insul is a permanent state that
cannot be overcome or altered by. An insul it's really
(08:21):
an embracing, of hopelessness which is a unique component again
of the in. Cel community that's one of the things
that there's a lot of, echoes around which is you can't,
get out you can't, change this and if you, try to.
You'll fail and if you, try to you're not a.
Real insul you're only a real insul if you accept
(08:44):
that this is.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Your existence.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
The concept of echo chambers came up often while producing.
This podcast most, of us to, be honest. Were unfamiliar
we Asked doctor lay to explain what an echo chamber
is in this context and what the. Implications are.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
The echo chamber component of any online extreme ideology group
is intended to enforce rules upon what is said and
how people behave in, this community and it also sets
up these men that if they ever dare to question
(09:26):
or go against the components of the, echo chamber they
are viewed, as unfaithful. As disloyal all of that is
intended to shame and mandate loyalty to the echo. Chamber
dialogue the reason it's an echo chamber is that it
is intended to program that ideology into. People's thinking.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Let's stop here for, a break we'll be back in.
A moment while learning about the blue pill and black,
(10:20):
pill Designations Doctor david lay also spoke to us about
what it means. To ascend.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So ascend is a term that the in cells us
to describe when an in cell overcomes their in cell
nature and when the, in cell frankly is successful at
getting a date or getting, a girlfriend getting a. Sex
partner and they described that this is when he ascends
past or out of his in. Cel identity but, even
(10:51):
though and there have been a couple of, you know
relatively well known in cell leaders who then quote unquote
ascended and did successfully get a date or. A girlfriend
and what was fascinating in those cases was that at
first these guys were somewhat celebrated by their, inceel peers
(11:12):
and then they. Were attacked then they were horrifically attacked
and shamed and just cut to ribbons in these online
communities by their inceell peers for, betraying them for betraying
the in. Cell identity and so even though they have
this term that you, can ascend the in cells encourage
(11:33):
each other against it because it would go Against that
blackpiel kind of idea that. It's hopeless.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Then this language in cells used to describe others the
quote normies or normal people often normies refer to those with,
healthy relationships specifically romantic and. Sexual ones this brings us
To the chads and the staces for a, Visual picture Barbie.
And Kendall.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
The Chad and Stacy and becky are these terms that
they that the in cels use to describe those men
and women who are more qualitatively attractive. AND Desirable a
chad is, you know that that man who is, you
know perceived as being tall and successful and, you know
(12:25):
traditionally handsome and desired, by women with social characteristics to
qualities like wealth that will make women attracted to him
and choose him over. The Insul the stacy is a more,
attractive female But the stacy is is oftentimes perceived as
also being kind of dumb. And shallow becky is a less,
(12:50):
you know kind of classically, attractive woman but more more
the kind of bookish sort, of female but also still
again more attractive than the. End cell and again there's
there's a tremendous amount of misogyny in the in, cell
community and most of, their anger most of their hatred
is actually reserved for the women and Not. That chad
(13:15):
they don't talk about Killing, the chad but they do
talk about the deceptiveness and the dishonesty, of Women both
Becky's and stacy's that they would choose those chads over
other men such as.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
The insuls.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Another thing to look at is just where in. Cells
congregate part of the reasons so little is widely known
about the subculture is that they self select into different
online spaces to speak openly. Among themselves Here's Producer, connor
powell who has spent time engaging on in cell forums for.
This podcast.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
There is this sort of feeling that their real life
for them is behind the key board on a social,
media forum Whether it's discord or the insell, community forums
Or even reddit to, some Extent although reddit doesn't have
as many in cells on it as it used to
because they've banned a lot of the language and the
behavior that you know it used.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
To attract.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Reddit is mainly used for, community discussions with thousands of
specialized forums. Called subreddits any of us might Go to
reddit to discuss literally anything from the best medical shows
to WATCH on tv to how to clean. Your windows,
as mentioned many in cell conversations have been Banned. From
reddit discord is another platform we've been hearing a lot,
(14:39):
about lately.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
We're also going to be investigating anyone and everyone involved
In that.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Discord chat there's an increase in violent online groups using
the App.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
CALLED discord i Spoke with Chase. About discord chase is
in his, early twenties outgoing with a healthy, social life.
A girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (15:03):
I use discord for the first time probably my freshman
sophomore year of. High school it was primarily used, for
gaming BUT as i started to establish more friends on,
the platform it then became more of an. Interpersonal thing
like a lot of people Get on discord to talk
to people that they wouldn't necessarily see in. REAL life
i have friends across the COUNTRY that i keep up
(15:23):
With on DISCORD that i might not even necessarily still game,
with actively like maybe here. And there but it's primarily
just something where it's a community based PLATFORM that i
use to talk to PEOPLE that i don't have any
connection with in.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
REAL life I asked chase if while in the process
of playing games and Chatting, on discord he only communicated
with those he knew in, real life or if he connected. With, strangers, oh.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
Yeah it's primarily strangers and, funny ENOUGH like i have
friends in real life that have introduced me to people
on Discord that i've never met in, real life that
have then gone on to introduce me to more people
and more People in before you, know it you're a
part of this twenty thirty forty person discord and you
don't know ninety five percent.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
OF them I, asked chase with the discussion Centered, around.
Speaker 6 (16:09):
Honestly Especially as i've, grown older the discord has gone
well above and beyond. Just gaming now we're talking, about
politics we're talking about, social relationships we're talking about what
people are doing in their, free time what their. Interests
are it goes way. Beyond gaming and it's to the
point NOW where i can SAY that i have a
very solid grasp of the types of People that i'm
(16:31):
dealing with strictly through discord without ever having actually.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
MET them I asked chase if he'd encountered conversations that.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
Turned, Volatile ABSOLUTELY and, I mean i'm not even. Gonna
lie most of the people on this discord are older
guys or just like guys, my age and they're. Strictly
gamers and a lot of these people the farther AND
farther i get removed from the PEOPLE that i know in.
Real life the more people that are Different that, i'm
meeting a lot of which are people that don't really
(16:59):
have interaction with other people in. Real life like a
lot of, these people most of their relationships Exist through
discord or through, online platforms and it's very obvious when
you're interacting with those people because they socialize a little
bit differently than the people that you know in.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Real life let's stop here for. Another break we'll be
back in.
Speaker 8 (17:22):
A moment.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
In cell chatter can be, hate, filled menacing. And threatening
in what might be the absolute worst instance of what,
can Happen Producer carolyn miller Spoke With. Kim devns kim's
seventeen year, Old Daughter, bianca devins was tragically killed her
killer that took brutal Pictures of bianca's corpse and posted
(18:03):
to in.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Cell groups seventeen Year Old bianca Devins of utica was
found dead in a wooded area at the end of.
The street when police arrived on, the scene, The Suspect
Brandon andrew Clark, of cicero laying on top of the
tarp covering.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
The Body in july, twenty nineteen the social Media platform
discord was buzzing about a photo that appeared to show
a dead.
Speaker 10 (18:26):
Young woman her killer posted the images of her body
online and they soon. Went viral but if that wasn't,
horrific enough the images were also sent to the victim's family.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
On discord it's fairly common for people to post gore
and disturbing images just to sort of get a rise out.
Of people.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The image, was shared turned, into memes and used to
her As the devons family in an online campaign that
goes on to. This day.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
My Name Is. KIM devons i am the Mother Of,
bianca devons who was murdered in. TWENTY nineteen i don't
want to say.
Speaker 8 (19:03):
His, name okay then Don't say.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Bianca was she was an amazing person with so. Much
potential she. Was seventeen she had just graduated high school
two weeks prior to. Her death she had plans to
pursue a degree. In psychology she wanted to work with
adolescence because she herself struggled with some pretty severe mental.
Health issues she was. Very artsy she was into music.
(19:29):
And art she especially liked. Digital art my favorite memories
are just our times of us, Being together LIKE when
i Think OF bianca i always think of like she
was always by. My side she, was definitely, you know
my little. Best friend like since she, was little she was.
Always attached was she an only child or did she
(19:50):
have any? Brothers sisters so she has her, Younger, sister
olivia and then She has maddie who is, now eight
and she has a stepbrother and. To stepsisters she's the oldest.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Of everyone so she had just graduated from high school
and she wanted to go, to college and you said
she wanted to go.
Speaker 8 (20:08):
Into psychology she.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Was going to start in her. Community College so biaka
was a young senior in. High school she, was still,
you know seventeen and would have turned eighteen in. The
fall so she wasn't ready to leave. Home yet so
she had decided she wanted to do her first two
years at community college and then she would transfer to
a four. Year school but she wasn't ready to leave.
Me Yet, so biaka you never knew what kind of
(20:31):
like aesthetic she was gonna have from day. To day
she often dyed her hair in the middle of. The
night we never knew what we were going to wake
up to. Color hair she. Was seventeen she was just
kind of. Finding herself she was just very much a,
free spirit but confident, in herself like she knew she
kind of merged to the beat of her, own drum
(20:53):
but had confidence.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
In that.
Speaker 8 (20:57):
You don't have to say, His name i'll. Say it
She Knew. Brandon clark would you consider?
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Them friends they were. Good friends we all, knew him.
You know she'd introduced him to everyone in. The family
they hadn't known each other for like, too long but
it was a, few months, and yeah they were.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Good Friends on, july thirteenth, Twenty nineteen bianca went to
a Concert With. Brandon clark He murdered bianca in the
early Morning of. July fourteenth it's been widely Reported that
bianca met up with a male friend, Of, hers alex at,
the concert that the pair shared, a kiss and that's
(21:35):
somehow it Quote set brandon off and led to. The
murder we asked him to clarify the events of. The, evening.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
No that is. A misconception he had planned this. Very
clearly there's clear evidence at least a, week prior including
on a note in his notesap on his Phone from
july eleventh entitled, murder suicide and he had a list
he makes lists for, LIKE everything i mean down to
(22:07):
like his. Favorite cereals they found in his jail sadelel
List of so there was a list that was Created on,
july eleventh and there was other evidence Prior to july
eleventh of. His planning if he was.
Speaker 8 (22:17):
Planning this did he ever have a motive as.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
To, why no he still maintains it was just extreme.
Emotional disturbance he has never given us. A why if
we had gone, to trial the motive presented by the
prosecution would have been. Number one he was just obsessed
with murder and it was something that he researched, a
lot and, you know read up on a lot of
(22:40):
different serial killers and, you know. Murder cases and he
was very Jealous. Of bianca she had this really. Bright
future she just kind of had everything that he didn't
and that. He wanted part of the motive would have
been LIKE if i can't, have you no. One Can
because bianca had made it very clear that they were
just friends and he definitely wanted more and. She didn't
(23:01):
she just wanted to. Be friends so that was definitely
another part of his motive was extreme jealousy AND if
i can't, have you no. One can one of my
vivid memories is sitting down with the police at the
police station and them telling me there were no red
FLAGS because i WHAT did? I miss i did not.
SEE anything i never would have, Expected this and they,
were like there really weren't any red flags that you could.
(23:24):
Have seen and it wasn't necessarily this concert or any type.
Of event it was just he's. A murderer he's evil
and if it wasn't, your daughter and if, it wasn't,
you know after, this concert it would have been. Someone else.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Another time we asked him to walk us through what
happened at. Her home the Morning of, JULY fourteenth i.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Was woken up by My, daughter olivia who was fifteen at,
the time and, she said the police are here Something.
About bianca it was like little after, seven am so
she's just woken up kind. Of us they presented that
they were coming for a. Welfare check, that first, you
know we're saying with bank, your daughter is? She here
and then they asked me if she went to, a
concert and then said that he had posted some concerning
(24:13):
things on the internet that he may have.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Hurt her.
Speaker 8 (24:19):
What happened?
Speaker 3 (24:19):
After that at the time that they came to. My
house the police were also getting calls from people In
the discoord server where the picture was, originally posted and
THEN they i know that they received a call from,
his aunt who he had called after. The murder he
had called and left several messages on family, members' phones
and then at some point while they were still at,
(24:42):
my house he called them. One himself in, the meantime
while we were trying to figure, this out, you know
we were all going through. Our Phones bianca's instagram was
logged into, my PHONE so i was going through her
messages to try to find messages between him and her
to see if there was any THING that i. Could
find and as we were, doing that my best friend
(25:04):
lived with me at, the time and she saw the
Picture on instagram and brought it out to my father
who was outside talking to. The police so my father
and my friend knew pretty early on that most likely
she had. Been killed.
Speaker 8 (25:21):
He took a photo of her and posted.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
It, online yes he Took, several yeah and he did that. Right,
away yes he recorded the, entire thing and then he
did take some, still photos posted that On her, discord
server and then he moved her out of his car
covered her with. A tarp he took several photos he
(25:46):
Posted to instagram, in snapchat, you know with her body
covered in the background with the knife. Of himself he
spray painted May You Never forget me on the roadway
in front of. His car he started a fire and
like tried to burn a laptop in a hard drive
and some. Other things really kind of like try to
(26:07):
make this as sensationalized. As, possible really, you know the
most attention seeking is as he. Passively could and then
he made sure to call name one. ONE himself i
think the police knew we're trying to confirm things before,
telling us but we knew that something had happened to
Be and olivia's friend immediately came over and a round the,
(26:29):
same time the police told us that they, you know they,
found him and, they found, you know a woman that
matched the, act's description and they believe it.
Speaker 8 (26:36):
Was her.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
OLIVIA'S friend i just, heard This like i've never heard
such a scream in, my life as like literal just.
Horrible Scream and olivia's friend had been sent the Picture.
On instagram he was fifteen at the.
Speaker 8 (26:49):
Time too he tried to.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Commit suicide he thought it was going to be a,
murder suicide and when they, got there he attempted to
slit his, own throat.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
So he waited for the police to. Show up before he,
did that he took pictures laying on top, of her
waited for the police to, show up took a picture
and posted like as he was letting, his throat took
a picture and posted It. To snapchat and then as
they were wheeling him away in, the ambulance he was
asking the police how many news stations had picked up.
(27:20):
The story oh. My god SO when I say i
don't want to give him the attention that, he's seeking
it's like every single thing he did was to get
as much attention on him.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
AS possible i can imagine you guys are just losing
your minds about all the photos that were posted and
the images that are. Being circulated what did that do
to your.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
GRIEVING process i just think we were so much in
shock and disbelief that like this had actually happened, to
her like that he had done this. TO her i
don't think we really processed that her picture had, Gone
viral and, you know it was a few days after
and then the police had told, us like, you know
we are getting, you know they're just coming in, so
(28:05):
Fast like Instagram and facebook are just telling, us like
we don't know if we can. Stop this like people
would Tell me, biaco's trending and, you Know Irap bianca devins,
was trending and it just none of that really made
sense to me at.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
The time, like many if, not, Most teenagers bianca spent
a lot of time online on, various platforms including discord
that's where the death picture was originally posted and began its,
insidious circulation propelled by. In cells we asked him if
she knew at the time what an. Insul, was.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yes it was A term. BIAKA used, I mean i
wouldn't say she used, it often but once in. A while,
you know biakare just telling me about like things going
on In her internet groups and with. Her friends, YOU
know i was familiar with the term. In cell, you
know she would tell me about like in cells On
four chan posting about her who represented everything that in, cels, hate,
Beautiful confident she oftentimes would help other young girls her
(29:08):
age recognize these in cels were trying to groom them and,
you know get them away. From them that the in.
Cel abuse So the intel community and these, you know
kind of dark Websites like fourtan and some discordsers like
they already hated her to begin with because she thwarted
their plans and she stood for everything that. They hated
(29:30):
they typically, hate strong. Independent women, SO yeah, I was
i was familiar with the term at. The time i've
spoken to several experts and in cells. And psychologists he's
not necessarily considered an in cell because he did. Have
girlfriends he did other Girlfriends and bianca, and Stuff. Murdering
bianca these in Cels took brandon and put him on.
(29:52):
A pedestal he was now their hero because, you know
he took out. This egirl.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
An egirl stands for electronic or, internet girl popularized on social.
Media platforms often egirls have distinctive fashion aesthetics that my
blend emo and, anime styles frequently paired with vibrantly dyed
hair and. Wing dyeliner.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
The thing that, they hated, you know this one particular
egir that they. ESPECIALLY hated i think a lot of
experts agree we wouldn't consider him an in cell at.
That point he did have some of the tendencies and, you.
Know ideology but what he did and then the way
that he posted all the pictures brought out all the
(30:40):
in cells and the Spread of bianca's picture was the
in cells and, you know, the messages the horrific messages
that friends and family. Were receiving that was all all
that harassment was coming from the in. CELL community i
mean they were making social, media pages, you know praising
him as a hero and giving him the attention that
(31:01):
he was looking for While harassing biaka's family and. Exploiting
her and do you still get those to? THIS day, i,
do definitely not, as often but every once in, a
while like you just never know when you're going to find,
a post someone's going to tell you about, a post
when you're going to get. A message but even, you
(31:21):
know to this day now that her, you know the
older the kid's youngest kids are, now, eight, fourteen, Fifteen
sixteen so now it's just this constant fear of are
they going to come across? The picture are they going
to come across these posts with these people are saying
horrible things about their sister and that she. DESERVED it,
i mean to, this day if you Go On, biaka's
(31:42):
instagram there's comments saying that she deserved it and just saying.
AWFUL things i didn't see the picture for about a
year and. A half anytime there was a notification on,
my phone someone else picked up my. Phone first and
then about eighteen months after, HER past i was just
scrolling on my phone one NIGHT and i Got an
(32:04):
instagram notification and the profile picture was the. Death photo
what did that do?
Speaker 4 (32:11):
To?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
You mentally there's no way to, describe IT because i
already was just. So broken that was. My baby no
one should ever have to, see anyone let alone their child.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Like that so he goes, to trial he does get,
found guilty and he got twenty five years. To life
do you feel that you got Justice for brianca or
that was that enough?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
For?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
YOU no i don't think there's a justice in this situation.
At all you keep there's no bringing. Her back even
if he was able to be charged with first degree
murder and, you know was sentenced to life, WITHOUT parole
i don't feel. THAT'S justice i. DON'T feel i, don't, know, like,
yeah okay he's going to set his life. IN prison
(32:57):
i felt more Justice when bianca's life was Passed In
New york state.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
We asked him To explain bianca's law as well as
who helped her make progress. WITH it.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
A couple of Weeks after, brihanca's death we started tracking
how many times these messages were being sent, to us
how many like we literally had, exiuse spreadsheets and we
were tracking where, they were, you know where they were being,
uploaded to who they were being, sent to how long
it was taking for them to be, taken down, you
know if they were, being reported what was the outcome of,
the report, The response and so we contacted our. Local
(33:34):
congressmen this is just something that really rocked. Our community
and he had brought up the, you know we went
to him for help because we could not get a
hold of Anyone at Instagram, or facebook and they were
the main social media platforms that were allowing these pictures to.
BE shared i know that within like the, First week
(33:57):
instagram Told the uticul, police, department like we just can't.
Do anything it's we're just being flooded with. The pictures
it's being shared. Too often we just can't. Stop it
they just really overstated what, they did what they were going,
to do, you know to prevent the pictures from being
spread they never really followed through, with anything, you know
(34:17):
and they just they kind of, always, said well, you know,
our technology it can't, you know. Catch everything so now.
Speaker 8 (34:24):
You have this congressman. On, board yes so what does he?
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Get started he introduced a bail for A Federal beiyanca's law.
Speaker 8 (34:34):
And tell Us what byanca's, law is so it's changed.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Over time one of our legislative writers actually rode up
drafted a really, really good in depth version of A
Federal beyanca's law that would, you know have carve outs
to repeal section two thirty so that these companies would
be held liable if these companies are aware of an
offending picture that goes against, their guidelines and it would be,
(35:00):
you know as defined in, this bill they are then
liable for making sure that it's not shared on. Their
platform it would also create a parent's bill of right
and this basically would force the companies to set up
a centralized. Crisis, center WHO like, i said when this
(35:21):
happened to us and these pictures were spreading and, GOING
viral i was very LUCKY that i had a personal
connection to someone. In power most people don't. Have that
and these companies really do need to have a designated
crisis center so that you can speak to someone outside
of the in app reporting that you're just reporting to.
A computer and it would not only apply to. Graphic
(35:45):
photos that would, you know, child pornography, child grooming things,
like that and then it would also make it a
crime and there would be some, you know civil liability
for people that are sharing. These photos on the, federal
level what, Happened nothing it. Got, dropped Unfortunately when biden was,
(36:06):
in office he had task force dealing with social. Media
regulation he had social Media task force was it was
a part Of his Violence against Women. Task Force and
i've had. Several conversations we've all seen the, you know
the social media Hearings. In congress Now that trump's, taken,
over unfortunately that has all kind of. Gone Away even
(36:27):
Instagram and facebook they've repealed a lot of their community guidelines,
and regulations so, you know we've really taken a lot of.
Steps backwards we did Pass A new york state law
which is it's very limiting because it only Applies To New.
York state, so basically if that's something's being shared With
The New york state and that IS. Called Niaka and
(36:48):
caroline's law that makes it a crime to share crime
scene photos any kind of graphic crime scene photos with
the intent, to harm SO that i mean that's always it's,
very encouraging but it's also it's just very limited because
it's just a. STATE law, i, mean ideally we need.
International regulation and THAT'S where i really felt like we had, some, Justice,
(37:12):
like okay we're. Doing something we are because that's automatically
like when, THIS happened i just Went into, mamma, Bearmon,
like okay we're not going to have her more exploited in,
Her DEATH like i still have to protect. My daughter
and by working on laws so that other people don't
have to go through what we went through and we
(37:32):
are still, going through WAS where i found some JUSTICE
and i felt like, we were, you know actually doing Something.
For bianca it's DEFINITELY something i will always. Advocate for
and it's hard to see the. Harassment online it is
hard to see people saying negative things and just really
vile things about. Your daughter, you know my mom always
does the like consider, the source, you know do we
(37:54):
really care what these insuls in like the basements or,
you know with no life, saying right like definitely with,
The internet i've seen the worst parts Of, the internet
but the best parts Of, the internet and the people
telling me how much my daughter helped them even in,
Her death like the message that she's in her spirit
(38:15):
and how much like hope people are getting from her
story and from, you know seeing things that, she's written
her videos that definitely outweighs the bad and that in
our darkest, worst times that is definitely what helps carry.
Us through and my biggest piece of advice is to
just watch your kids and know what. They're doing PIANK
(38:36):
and i were. VERY close i manaitored both my children's,
Social MEDIA so i am not going TO say i
would never SAY that i always knew exactly what she.
Was doing she, Was seventeen like she knew how to,
hide things exactly everything she was doing In. The INTERNET
but i was pretty knowledgeable About, the internet the, different
websites the, different apps what was. Going ON and i
(38:56):
think that that's like the biggest message with your kids
is just the end or not can be a, great
place but also it can be. Very dangerous so it's
very very easy to get indoctrinated in, these dark, evil
websites and, you know these, intel websites They're, just yeah
it's such that you can't even, imagine that like that
people are talking about and like the theories they come,
(39:17):
up with in the ideals that they have and the messages.
They're spreading it alters, your brain just as like someone
that you, would think right is like your average. Normal
person just you can't tell, me that like reading that
doesn't alter your brain at some point and if you
are reading it enough and then you start like connecting.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
With that kim is talking about, echo chambers Which doctor
lay described to us earlier in. This episode what happened
To the devin's family is a prime and hideous example
of what constant negativity and violent messages with no escape.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Can do and that's the problem With the internet is
you would never be talking about this stuff out. In,
public people most people would never be saying these things
in public now wouldn't be ALLOWED on tv or, streaming
services any kind of. Cable networks IT'S while, I knew
i personally knew how special my, daughter was it was
(40:11):
really really nice to see how special she was to.
The world and, you know even to, THIS day i
still get messages and that's amazing, to see, you know
she really is still making an impact on people. ALL
over i hate, when people as they said it a
lot in, the beginning we'll just get off, the internet
stay off. Social media but why WHY should i not
be able to Get supports like there are so many
(40:34):
good support Groups, on facebook, you know for parents that
have lost, their children or, grief groups and ESPECIALLY. Through covid,
YOU know covid happened just a few months after. Her
passing and WHY can i not connect for support or
stay in contact with my family just because there's a
certain set of evil people that want to. Ruin THINGS
(40:56):
so i always hated that when people, Were like i'll just. Stay,
off no why don't we regulate it and make it safe?
For everyone it just needs to. BE safer i think
our laws have not caught up to the technology and.
THE times, i mean just as recently As The charlie.
Clark murder no one needs to see someone, getting, shot
(41:19):
right even like the new channels that, we're showing like
the blurred, out video you can report on news without
having to show something That, GRAPHIC like i feel like
people have just become so desensitized and it's just it's things.
Like that it's just NOT necessary. I don't i don't
understand the sensationalism and how people just don't think anything
(41:41):
of watching someone get shot. AND die i don't, understand
it but, it definitely, you know our society has just
become way too desensitized. To violence, so yes we, need
regulation we. NEED laws i don't Know that i'll ever.
Accept it how do you accept that your daughter is never?
Coming home, you know this seventeen year old, Healthy GIRL
(42:06):
and i.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
DON'T know i.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
DON'T know i think that we just survive.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Each day was there also a scholarship Formed in?
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Bianca's, name yes so we formed a scholarship and the
scholarship goes to a college student at our local university
that is pursuing psychology and specifically with the intent to work.
With adolescents so kind of a way to help people
(42:37):
To achieve.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Bianca's, dream finally We, ASKED kim, i said any final
ways She'd like bianca's memory to be?
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Carried on Be, like bianca, be kind don't spread negativity on.
The internet.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
For more information on the case and, relevant photos follow
Us on Instagram at Kati On. Score Studios in cells
is Produced By Stephanie Leideger gabriel castillo And Me. Courtney
armstrong additional Producing By connor Powell And, Carolyn miller Editing By,
jeff tooi Music By. Vanicore Studios in cells is a
(43:18):
PRODUCTION Of kt Studios And. iHeart radio for more podcasts,
like this Visit the, iHeartRadio App, apple podcasts or wherever
you listen to your. Favorite shows
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset
I am a loser if also we know wouldn't pay
me either.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
A hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against women at
a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide.
Speaker 4 (00:15):
Pelissea.
Speaker 5 (00:16):
A driver intentionally drove into a crowd, killing ten people.
Speaker 6 (00:21):
Tomorrow is the day of retribution, the day in which
I will have my revenge.
Speaker 7 (00:27):
Is very angry, expressing a lot of hatred towards women
and towards men who get all the women.
Speaker 8 (00:34):
I just told my husband I know she's dead.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
This is in Cells, a production of Kat's Studios and iHeartRadio,
Season one, Episode two, Blackpilled. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer
at KATI Studios, with Stephanie Leidecker, Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell,
and Carolyn Miller. Even as we write this script, the
(01:02):
idea of online radicalization of all forms has been top
of news.
Speaker 9 (01:07):
What we are seeing is people that are being radicalized
typically are high and what's called the dark triad, which
is macavelianism, narcissism, and psychopathy, leading us to believe that
this ideology had infected him and had taken over.
Speaker 10 (01:23):
A lot of us are not immune to the danger
of the kind of radicalization that takes place.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
This goes all the way up to the Senate Judiciary
Committee hearing on September sixteenth. Here's Director of the FBI
Cash Betel, speaking with Senator Lindsay Graham.
Speaker 10 (01:42):
The data shows that social media is wildly out of control.
Speaker 9 (01:45):
This guy's FBI director. He says that social media is
wildly out of control.
Speaker 1 (01:52):
Online radicalization of all sorts is becoming more prevalent, specifically
as it relates to an uptick in in cell ideology.
Last episode, we covered the basics of what a self
identifying in cell is, an involuntarily celibate man who often
feels hopeless with his position in life and who can
sometimes turn violent. Here's boys In Hodson, Communications and marketing
(02:15):
director for the Mankind Project. He explains research going on
in this area.
Speaker 10 (02:22):
There is really beautiful research out there from Equamundo than
another organization called Diverting Hate. That have all been kind
of looking at these things, and what they see about
men who get involved in the in cell community is
that they are really attached to adhering to really strict
gender roles around what it means to be a man,
(02:44):
and the more they adhere to that kind of dominance based, hierarchical,
really unhealthy beliefs about women, really unhealthy beliefs about people
of color, a lot of that stuff. And the more
that they get attached to these rigid, unhealthy the ideas
about what it means to be a man, the easier
it is for them to get drawn into hating other people,
(03:06):
to get drawn into self harm and harm of others.
We talk about it as either dominance based masculinity or
the man box culture.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
We ask Boyson to explain man box culture.
Speaker 10 (03:19):
The idea of the man box is that most boys
and men that you speak to out there in the world,
they know what they're supposed to do. They know what
fits in the man box. Don't be gay, make a
lot of money, keep your emotions to yourself, man up,
don't hurt, don't share. All of these kinds of things
(03:41):
that you know. Little boys start embodying these things at
four or five years old. They already know what's inside
the box.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
We spoke to Boyson about how these messages get internalized
and what that does to the mindset of in cells.
Speaker 10 (03:59):
So the messages that many of us heard when we
were younger, and this is you know, I'm in my
fifties and I still remember these messages, right. Don't get
vulnerable with other people, don't show your weakness, don't share
your emotions, toughen up. A lot of these messages get internalized,
(04:21):
and from those internalized messages, it is absolutely recipe for isolation.
It is absolutely a recipe to stay home, not go out,
only have online community, and restrict your kind of sharing
about what's real and true and vulnerable about who you are.
Speaker 1 (04:41):
To better understand the different ideologies and cells fall into,
we first need to understand the terminology that's used, starting
with red pill and black pill.
Speaker 10 (04:53):
So there's the red pill world where you've woken up
in quotation marks to the fact that you know feminism
has gone too far and men are really the ones
who are being victimized these days, and that is backed
up in the in cell world by this idea of
black pill and the blackpill science that they bring into
this is really flawed versions of evolutionary science or eugenics
(05:21):
that places human beings in very distinct hierarchies. So this
idea of six' six' six six, feet tall six figure
incomes six. Inches plus that's the, ideal, man right and
then every other gradation of society is kind of ranked based.
(05:42):
On that so a lot of the in cell ideology
is based on really bad science that they call, black
pill that they believe is these are the women, Who
succeed these are the men. Who succeed i'm, Not that
i'll never. Be that i'm doomed.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
For a deeper dive into black, pill ideology as well
as the blue and red pill ideologies that go along.
With it we spoke To Doctor david lay who describes
the importance of in cels having their. Own Language doctor
lay is a, clinical psychologist, sex therapist and author of.
Multiple books he also does training for therapists around. The, world.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
So, you, know first it's important to recognize that having,
idiosyncratic terminology having a certain language and terminology that is
native and unique to a community is one of the
ways of building identity because people that are outside the
community don't know what these, terms mean and having the
(06:49):
secret language keeps other people out and it builds this
idea of secret knowledge. And belongingness by not only knowing,
the terms but using the whole pill kind, of concept
you know the red pill and. Blue pill we remember That,
from matrix and, you know the red pill is when
you reject society being the way you've been told it's going,
(07:12):
to be and you decide to see underneath.
Speaker 6 (07:15):
The current.
Speaker 1 (07:19):
The people who do not see underneath the curtain are considered.
Blue pilled this is someone who is not part of
the in cell community and is considered ignorant of what
in cells believe to be the quote truth in the in.
Cell worldview those who are blue pilled believe what we'd
call mainstream ideas. About relationships that personality and emotional connection
(07:42):
are important in attracting, a partner that sex and intimacy
are not commodities controlled solely, by women and that gender
roles in society are not unfairly skewed. Against Men doctor
lay continues describing the, bleakest designation the.
Speaker 11 (07:58):
Black pill, the, blackpill though is somewhat unique to the,
insel community and it is a bleak cynical view that
in seldom being an insul is a permanent state that
cannot be overcome or altered by. An insul it's really
(08:21):
an embracing, of hopelessness which is a unique component again
of the in. Cel community that's one of the things
that there's a lot of, echoes around which is you can't,
get out you can't, change this and if you, try to.
You'll fail and if you, try to you're not a.
Real insul you're only a real insul if you accept
(08:44):
that this is.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Your existence.
Speaker 1 (08:48):
The concept of echo chambers came up often while producing.
This podcast most, of us to, be honest. Were unfamiliar
we Asked doctor lay to explain what an echo chamber
is in this context and what the. Implications are.
Speaker 2 (09:02):
The echo chamber component of any online extreme ideology group
is intended to enforce rules upon what is said and
how people behave in, this community and it also sets
up these men that if they ever dare to question
(09:26):
or go against the components of the, echo chamber they
are viewed, as unfaithful. As disloyal all of that is
intended to shame and mandate loyalty to the echo. Chamber
dialogue the reason it's an echo chamber is that it
is intended to program that ideology into. People's thinking.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
Let's stop here for, a break we'll be back in.
A moment while learning about the blue pill and black,
(10:20):
pill Designations Doctor david lay also spoke to us about
what it means. To ascend.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
So ascend is a term that the in cells us
to describe when an in cell overcomes their in cell
nature and when the, in cell frankly is successful at
getting a date or getting, a girlfriend getting a. Sex
partner and they described that this is when he ascends
past or out of his in. Cel identity but, even
(10:51):
though and there have been a couple of, you know
relatively well known in cell leaders who then quote unquote
ascended and did successfully get a date or. A girlfriend
and what was fascinating in those cases was that at
first these guys were somewhat celebrated by their, inceel peers
(11:12):
and then they. Were attacked then they were horrifically attacked
and shamed and just cut to ribbons in these online
communities by their inceell peers for, betraying them for betraying
the in. Cell identity and so even though they have
this term that you, can ascend the in cells encourage
(11:33):
each other against it because it would go Against that
blackpiel kind of idea that. It's hopeless.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
Then this language in cells used to describe others the
quote normies or normal people often normies refer to those with,
healthy relationships specifically romantic and. Sexual ones this brings us
To the chads and the staces for a, Visual picture Barbie.
And Kendall.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
The Chad and Stacy and becky are these terms that
they that the in cels use to describe those men
and women who are more qualitatively attractive. AND Desirable a
chad is, you know that that man who is, you
know perceived as being tall and successful and, you know
(12:25):
traditionally handsome and desired, by women with social characteristics to
qualities like wealth that will make women attracted to him
and choose him over. The Insul the stacy is a more,
attractive female But the stacy is is oftentimes perceived as
also being kind of dumb. And shallow becky is a less,
(12:50):
you know kind of classically, attractive woman but more more
the kind of bookish sort, of female but also still
again more attractive than the. End cell and again there's
there's a tremendous amount of misogyny in the in, cell
community and most of, their anger most of their hatred
is actually reserved for the women and Not. That chad
(13:15):
they don't talk about Killing, the chad but they do
talk about the deceptiveness and the dishonesty, of Women both
Becky's and stacy's that they would choose those chads over
other men such as.
Speaker 3 (13:32):
The insuls.
Speaker 1 (13:35):
Another thing to look at is just where in. Cells
congregate part of the reasons so little is widely known
about the subculture is that they self select into different
online spaces to speak openly. Among themselves Here's Producer, connor
powell who has spent time engaging on in cell forums for.
This podcast.
Speaker 7 (13:55):
There is this sort of feeling that their real life
for them is behind the key board on a social,
media forum Whether it's discord or the insell, community forums
Or even reddit to, some Extent although reddit doesn't have
as many in cells on it as it used to
because they've banned a lot of the language and the
behavior that you know it used.
Speaker 3 (14:13):
To attract.
Speaker 1 (14:16):
Reddit is mainly used for, community discussions with thousands of
specialized forums. Called subreddits any of us might Go to
reddit to discuss literally anything from the best medical shows
to WATCH on tv to how to clean. Your windows,
as mentioned many in cell conversations have been Banned. From
reddit discord is another platform we've been hearing a lot,
(14:39):
about lately.
Speaker 10 (14:42):
We're also going to be investigating anyone and everyone involved
In that.
Speaker 6 (14:46):
Discord chat there's an increase in violent online groups using
the App.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
CALLED discord i Spoke with Chase. About discord chase is
in his, early twenties outgoing with a healthy, social life.
A girlfriend.
Speaker 6 (15:03):
I use discord for the first time probably my freshman
sophomore year of. High school it was primarily used, for
gaming BUT as i started to establish more friends on,
the platform it then became more of an. Interpersonal thing
like a lot of people Get on discord to talk
to people that they wouldn't necessarily see in. REAL life
i have friends across the COUNTRY that i keep up
(15:23):
With on DISCORD that i might not even necessarily still game,
with actively like maybe here. And there but it's primarily
just something where it's a community based PLATFORM that i
use to talk to PEOPLE that i don't have any
connection with in.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
REAL life I asked chase if while in the process
of playing games and Chatting, on discord he only communicated
with those he knew in, real life or if he connected. With, strangers, oh.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
Yeah it's primarily strangers and, funny ENOUGH like i have
friends in real life that have introduced me to people
on Discord that i've never met in, real life that
have then gone on to introduce me to more people
and more People in before you, know it you're a
part of this twenty thirty forty person discord and you
don't know ninety five percent.
Speaker 1 (16:05):
OF them I, asked chase with the discussion Centered, around.
Speaker 6 (16:09):
Honestly Especially as i've, grown older the discord has gone
well above and beyond. Just gaming now we're talking, about
politics we're talking about, social relationships we're talking about what
people are doing in their, free time what their. Interests
are it goes way. Beyond gaming and it's to the
point NOW where i can SAY that i have a
very solid grasp of the types of People that i'm
(16:31):
dealing with strictly through discord without ever having actually.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
MET them I asked chase if he'd encountered conversations that.
Speaker 6 (16:39):
Turned, Volatile ABSOLUTELY and, I mean i'm not even. Gonna
lie most of the people on this discord are older
guys or just like guys, my age and they're. Strictly
gamers and a lot of these people the farther AND
farther i get removed from the PEOPLE that i know in.
Real life the more people that are Different that, i'm
meeting a lot of which are people that don't really
(16:59):
have interaction with other people in. Real life like a
lot of, these people most of their relationships Exist through
discord or through, online platforms and it's very obvious when
you're interacting with those people because they socialize a little
bit differently than the people that you know in.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Real life let's stop here for. Another break we'll be
back in.
Speaker 8 (17:22):
A moment.
Speaker 1 (17:42):
In cell chatter can be, hate, filled menacing. And threatening
in what might be the absolute worst instance of what,
can Happen Producer carolyn miller Spoke With. Kim devns kim's
seventeen year, Old Daughter, bianca devins was tragically killed her
killer that took brutal Pictures of bianca's corpse and posted
(18:03):
to in.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
Cell groups seventeen Year Old bianca Devins of utica was
found dead in a wooded area at the end of.
The street when police arrived on, the scene, The Suspect
Brandon andrew Clark, of cicero laying on top of the
tarp covering.
Speaker 3 (18:17):
The Body in july, twenty nineteen the social Media platform
discord was buzzing about a photo that appeared to show
a dead.
Speaker 10 (18:26):
Young woman her killer posted the images of her body
online and they soon. Went viral but if that wasn't,
horrific enough the images were also sent to the victim's family.
Speaker 3 (18:36):
On discord it's fairly common for people to post gore
and disturbing images just to sort of get a rise out.
Of people.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The image, was shared turned, into memes and used to
her As the devons family in an online campaign that
goes on to. This day.
Speaker 3 (18:54):
My Name Is. KIM devons i am the Mother Of,
bianca devons who was murdered in. TWENTY nineteen i don't
want to say.
Speaker 8 (19:03):
His, name okay then Don't say.
Speaker 3 (19:05):
Bianca was she was an amazing person with so. Much
potential she. Was seventeen she had just graduated high school
two weeks prior to. Her death she had plans to
pursue a degree. In psychology she wanted to work with
adolescence because she herself struggled with some pretty severe mental.
Health issues she was. Very artsy she was into music.
(19:29):
And art she especially liked. Digital art my favorite memories
are just our times of us, Being together LIKE when
i Think OF bianca i always think of like she
was always by. My side she, was definitely, you know
my little. Best friend like since she, was little she was.
Always attached was she an only child or did she
(19:50):
have any? Brothers sisters so she has her, Younger, sister
olivia and then She has maddie who is, now eight
and she has a stepbrother and. To stepsisters she's the oldest.
Speaker 5 (20:02):
Of everyone so she had just graduated from high school
and she wanted to go, to college and you said
she wanted to go.
Speaker 8 (20:08):
Into psychology she.
Speaker 3 (20:09):
Was going to start in her. Community College so biaka
was a young senior in. High school she, was still,
you know seventeen and would have turned eighteen in. The
fall so she wasn't ready to leave. Home yet so
she had decided she wanted to do her first two
years at community college and then she would transfer to
a four. Year school but she wasn't ready to leave.
Me Yet, so biaka you never knew what kind of
(20:31):
like aesthetic she was gonna have from day. To day
she often dyed her hair in the middle of. The
night we never knew what we were going to wake
up to. Color hair she. Was seventeen she was just
kind of. Finding herself she was just very much a,
free spirit but confident, in herself like she knew she
kind of merged to the beat of her, own drum
(20:53):
but had confidence.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
In that.
Speaker 8 (20:57):
You don't have to say, His name i'll. Say it
She Knew. Brandon clark would you consider?
Speaker 3 (21:02):
Them friends they were. Good friends we all, knew him.
You know she'd introduced him to everyone in. The family
they hadn't known each other for like, too long but
it was a, few months, and yeah they were.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
Good Friends on, july thirteenth, Twenty nineteen bianca went to
a Concert With. Brandon clark He murdered bianca in the
early Morning of. July fourteenth it's been widely Reported that
bianca met up with a male friend, Of, hers alex at,
the concert that the pair shared, a kiss and that's
(21:35):
somehow it Quote set brandon off and led to. The
murder we asked him to clarify the events of. The, evening.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
No that is. A misconception he had planned this. Very
clearly there's clear evidence at least a, week prior including
on a note in his notesap on his Phone from
july eleventh entitled, murder suicide and he had a list
he makes lists for, LIKE everything i mean down to
(22:07):
like his. Favorite cereals they found in his jail sadelel
List of so there was a list that was Created on,
july eleventh and there was other evidence Prior to july
eleventh of. His planning if he was.
Speaker 8 (22:17):
Planning this did he ever have a motive as.
Speaker 3 (22:19):
To, why no he still maintains it was just extreme.
Emotional disturbance he has never given us. A why if
we had gone, to trial the motive presented by the
prosecution would have been. Number one he was just obsessed
with murder and it was something that he researched, a
lot and, you know read up on a lot of
(22:40):
different serial killers and, you know. Murder cases and he
was very Jealous. Of bianca she had this really. Bright
future she just kind of had everything that he didn't
and that. He wanted part of the motive would have
been LIKE if i can't, have you no. One Can
because bianca had made it very clear that they were
just friends and he definitely wanted more and. She didn't
(23:01):
she just wanted to. Be friends so that was definitely
another part of his motive was extreme jealousy AND if
i can't, have you no. One can one of my
vivid memories is sitting down with the police at the
police station and them telling me there were no red
FLAGS because i WHAT did? I miss i did not.
SEE anything i never would have, Expected this and they,
were like there really weren't any red flags that you could.
(23:24):
Have seen and it wasn't necessarily this concert or any type.
Of event it was just he's. A murderer he's evil
and if it wasn't, your daughter and if, it wasn't,
you know after, this concert it would have been. Someone else.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Another time we asked him to walk us through what
happened at. Her home the Morning of, JULY fourteenth i.
Speaker 3 (23:48):
Was woken up by My, daughter olivia who was fifteen at,
the time and, she said the police are here Something.
About bianca it was like little after, seven am so
she's just woken up kind. Of us they presented that
they were coming for a. Welfare check, that first, you
know we're saying with bank, your daughter is? She here
and then they asked me if she went to, a
concert and then said that he had posted some concerning
(24:13):
things on the internet that he may have.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Hurt her.
Speaker 8 (24:19):
What happened?
Speaker 3 (24:19):
After that at the time that they came to. My
house the police were also getting calls from people In
the discoord server where the picture was, originally posted and
THEN they i know that they received a call from,
his aunt who he had called after. The murder he
had called and left several messages on family, members' phones
and then at some point while they were still at,
(24:42):
my house he called them. One himself in, the meantime
while we were trying to figure, this out, you know
we were all going through. Our Phones bianca's instagram was
logged into, my PHONE so i was going through her
messages to try to find messages between him and her
to see if there was any THING that i. Could
find and as we were, doing that my best friend
(25:04):
lived with me at, the time and she saw the
Picture on instagram and brought it out to my father
who was outside talking to. The police so my father
and my friend knew pretty early on that most likely
she had. Been killed.
Speaker 8 (25:21):
He took a photo of her and posted.
Speaker 3 (25:24):
It, online yes he Took, several yeah and he did that. Right,
away yes he recorded the, entire thing and then he
did take some, still photos posted that On her, discord
server and then he moved her out of his car
covered her with. A tarp he took several photos he
(25:46):
Posted to instagram, in snapchat, you know with her body
covered in the background with the knife. Of himself he
spray painted May You Never forget me on the roadway
in front of. His car he started a fire and
like tried to burn a laptop in a hard drive
and some. Other things really kind of like try to
(26:07):
make this as sensationalized. As, possible really, you know the
most attention seeking is as he. Passively could and then
he made sure to call name one. ONE himself i
think the police knew we're trying to confirm things before,
telling us but we knew that something had happened to
Be and olivia's friend immediately came over and a round the,
(26:29):
same time the police told us that they, you know they,
found him and, they found, you know a woman that
matched the, act's description and they believe it.
Speaker 8 (26:36):
Was her.
Speaker 3 (26:37):
OLIVIA'S friend i just, heard This like i've never heard
such a scream in, my life as like literal just.
Horrible Scream and olivia's friend had been sent the Picture.
On instagram he was fifteen at the.
Speaker 8 (26:49):
Time too he tried to.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
Commit suicide he thought it was going to be a,
murder suicide and when they, got there he attempted to
slit his, own throat.
Speaker 3 (27:00):
So he waited for the police to. Show up before he,
did that he took pictures laying on top, of her
waited for the police to, show up took a picture
and posted like as he was letting, his throat took
a picture and posted It. To snapchat and then as
they were wheeling him away in, the ambulance he was
asking the police how many news stations had picked up.
(27:20):
The story oh. My god SO when I say i
don't want to give him the attention that, he's seeking
it's like every single thing he did was to get
as much attention on him.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
AS possible i can imagine you guys are just losing
your minds about all the photos that were posted and
the images that are. Being circulated what did that do
to your.
Speaker 3 (27:43):
GRIEVING process i just think we were so much in
shock and disbelief that like this had actually happened, to
her like that he had done this. TO her i
don't think we really processed that her picture had, Gone
viral and, you know it was a few days after
and then the police had told, us like, you know
we are getting, you know they're just coming in, so
(28:05):
Fast like Instagram and facebook are just telling, us like
we don't know if we can. Stop this like people
would Tell me, biaco's trending and, you Know Irap bianca devins,
was trending and it just none of that really made
sense to me at.
Speaker 1 (28:18):
The time, like many if, not, Most teenagers bianca spent
a lot of time online on, various platforms including discord
that's where the death picture was originally posted and began its,
insidious circulation propelled by. In cells we asked him if
she knew at the time what an. Insul, was.
Speaker 3 (28:42):
Yes it was A term. BIAKA used, I mean i
wouldn't say she used, it often but once in. A while,
you know biakare just telling me about like things going
on In her internet groups and with. Her friends, YOU
know i was familiar with the term. In cell, you
know she would tell me about like in cells On
four chan posting about her who represented everything that in, cels, hate,
Beautiful confident she oftentimes would help other young girls her
(29:08):
age recognize these in cels were trying to groom them and,
you know get them away. From them that the in.
Cel abuse So the intel community and these, you know
kind of dark Websites like fourtan and some discordsers like
they already hated her to begin with because she thwarted
their plans and she stood for everything that. They hated
(29:30):
they typically, hate strong. Independent women, SO yeah, I was
i was familiar with the term at. The time i've
spoken to several experts and in cells. And psychologists he's
not necessarily considered an in cell because he did. Have
girlfriends he did other Girlfriends and bianca, and Stuff. Murdering
bianca these in Cels took brandon and put him on.
(29:52):
A pedestal he was now their hero because, you know
he took out. This egirl.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
An egirl stands for electronic or, internet girl popularized on social.
Media platforms often egirls have distinctive fashion aesthetics that my
blend emo and, anime styles frequently paired with vibrantly dyed
hair and. Wing dyeliner.
Speaker 3 (30:19):
The thing that, they hated, you know this one particular
egir that they. ESPECIALLY hated i think a lot of
experts agree we wouldn't consider him an in cell at.
That point he did have some of the tendencies and, you.
Know ideology but what he did and then the way
that he posted all the pictures brought out all the
(30:40):
in cells and the Spread of bianca's picture was the
in cells and, you know, the messages the horrific messages
that friends and family. Were receiving that was all all
that harassment was coming from the in. CELL community i
mean they were making social, media pages, you know praising
him as a hero and giving him the attention that
(31:01):
he was looking for While harassing biaka's family and. Exploiting
her and do you still get those to? THIS day, i,
do definitely not, as often but every once in, a
while like you just never know when you're going to find,
a post someone's going to tell you about, a post
when you're going to get. A message but even, you
(31:21):
know to this day now that her, you know the
older the kid's youngest kids are, now, eight, fourteen, Fifteen
sixteen so now it's just this constant fear of are
they going to come across? The picture are they going
to come across these posts with these people are saying
horrible things about their sister and that she. DESERVED it,
i mean to, this day if you Go On, biaka's
(31:42):
instagram there's comments saying that she deserved it and just saying.
AWFUL things i didn't see the picture for about a
year and. A half anytime there was a notification on,
my phone someone else picked up my. Phone first and
then about eighteen months after, HER past i was just
scrolling on my phone one NIGHT and i Got an
(32:04):
instagram notification and the profile picture was the. Death photo
what did that do?
Speaker 4 (32:11):
To?
Speaker 3 (32:11):
You mentally there's no way to, describe IT because i
already was just. So broken that was. My baby no
one should ever have to, see anyone let alone their child.
Speaker 5 (32:23):
Like that so he goes, to trial he does get,
found guilty and he got twenty five years. To life
do you feel that you got Justice for brianca or
that was that enough?
Speaker 1 (32:36):
For?
Speaker 3 (32:36):
YOU no i don't think there's a justice in this situation.
At all you keep there's no bringing. Her back even
if he was able to be charged with first degree
murder and, you know was sentenced to life, WITHOUT parole
i don't feel. THAT'S justice i. DON'T feel i, don't, know, like,
yeah okay he's going to set his life. IN prison
(32:57):
i felt more Justice when bianca's life was Passed In
New york state.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
We asked him To explain bianca's law as well as
who helped her make progress. WITH it.
Speaker 3 (33:10):
A couple of Weeks after, brihanca's death we started tracking
how many times these messages were being sent, to us
how many like we literally had, exiuse spreadsheets and we
were tracking where, they were, you know where they were being,
uploaded to who they were being, sent to how long
it was taking for them to be, taken down, you
know if they were, being reported what was the outcome of,
the report, The response and so we contacted our. Local
(33:34):
congressmen this is just something that really rocked. Our community
and he had brought up the, you know we went
to him for help because we could not get a
hold of Anyone at Instagram, or facebook and they were
the main social media platforms that were allowing these pictures to.
BE shared i know that within like the, First week
(33:57):
instagram Told the uticul, police, department like we just can't.
Do anything it's we're just being flooded with. The pictures
it's being shared. Too often we just can't. Stop it
they just really overstated what, they did what they were going,
to do, you know to prevent the pictures from being
spread they never really followed through, with anything, you know
(34:17):
and they just they kind of, always, said well, you know,
our technology it can't, you know. Catch everything so now.
Speaker 8 (34:24):
You have this congressman. On, board yes so what does he?
Speaker 3 (34:28):
Get started he introduced a bail for A Federal beiyanca's law.
Speaker 8 (34:34):
And tell Us what byanca's, law is so it's changed.
Speaker 3 (34:38):
Over time one of our legislative writers actually rode up
drafted a really, really good in depth version of A
Federal beyanca's law that would, you know have carve outs
to repeal section two thirty so that these companies would
be held liable if these companies are aware of an
offending picture that goes against, their guidelines and it would be,
(35:00):
you know as defined in, this bill they are then
liable for making sure that it's not shared on. Their
platform it would also create a parent's bill of right
and this basically would force the companies to set up
a centralized. Crisis, center WHO like, i said when this
(35:21):
happened to us and these pictures were spreading and, GOING
viral i was very LUCKY that i had a personal
connection to someone. In power most people don't. Have that
and these companies really do need to have a designated
crisis center so that you can speak to someone outside
of the in app reporting that you're just reporting to.
A computer and it would not only apply to. Graphic
(35:45):
photos that would, you know, child pornography, child grooming things,
like that and then it would also make it a
crime and there would be some, you know civil liability
for people that are sharing. These photos on the, federal
level what, Happened nothing it. Got, dropped Unfortunately when biden was,
(36:06):
in office he had task force dealing with social. Media
regulation he had social Media task force was it was
a part Of his Violence against Women. Task Force and
i've had. Several conversations we've all seen the, you know
the social media Hearings. In congress Now that trump's, taken,
over unfortunately that has all kind of. Gone Away even
(36:27):
Instagram and facebook they've repealed a lot of their community guidelines,
and regulations so, you know we've really taken a lot of.
Steps backwards we did Pass A new york state law
which is it's very limiting because it only Applies To New.
York state, so basically if that's something's being shared With
The New york state and that IS. Called Niaka and
(36:48):
caroline's law that makes it a crime to share crime
scene photos any kind of graphic crime scene photos with
the intent, to harm SO that i mean that's always it's,
very encouraging but it's also it's just very limited because
it's just a. STATE law, i, mean ideally we need.
International regulation and THAT'S where i really felt like we had, some, Justice,
(37:12):
like okay we're. Doing something we are because that's automatically
like when, THIS happened i just Went into, mamma, Bearmon,
like okay we're not going to have her more exploited in,
Her DEATH like i still have to protect. My daughter
and by working on laws so that other people don't
have to go through what we went through and we
(37:32):
are still, going through WAS where i found some JUSTICE
and i felt like, we were, you know actually doing Something.
For bianca it's DEFINITELY something i will always. Advocate for
and it's hard to see the. Harassment online it is
hard to see people saying negative things and just really
vile things about. Your daughter, you know my mom always
does the like consider, the source, you know do we
(37:54):
really care what these insuls in like the basements or,
you know with no life, saying right like definitely with,
The internet i've seen the worst parts Of, the internet
but the best parts Of, the internet and the people
telling me how much my daughter helped them even in,
Her death like the message that she's in her spirit
(38:15):
and how much like hope people are getting from her
story and from, you know seeing things that, she's written
her videos that definitely outweighs the bad and that in
our darkest, worst times that is definitely what helps carry.
Us through and my biggest piece of advice is to
just watch your kids and know what. They're doing PIANK
(38:36):
and i were. VERY close i manaitored both my children's,
Social MEDIA so i am not going TO say i
would never SAY that i always knew exactly what she.
Was doing she, Was seventeen like she knew how to,
hide things exactly everything she was doing In. The INTERNET
but i was pretty knowledgeable About, the internet the, different
websites the, different apps what was. Going ON and i
(38:56):
think that that's like the biggest message with your kids
is just the end or not can be a, great
place but also it can be. Very dangerous so it's
very very easy to get indoctrinated in, these dark, evil
websites and, you know these, intel websites They're, just yeah
it's such that you can't even, imagine that like that
people are talking about and like the theories they come,
(39:17):
up with in the ideals that they have and the messages.
They're spreading it alters, your brain just as like someone
that you, would think right is like your average. Normal
person just you can't tell, me that like reading that
doesn't alter your brain at some point and if you
are reading it enough and then you start like connecting.
Speaker 1 (39:35):
With that kim is talking about, echo chambers Which doctor
lay described to us earlier in. This episode what happened
To the devin's family is a prime and hideous example
of what constant negativity and violent messages with no escape.
Speaker 3 (39:50):
Can do and that's the problem With the internet is
you would never be talking about this stuff out. In,
public people most people would never be saying these things
in public now wouldn't be ALLOWED on tv or, streaming
services any kind of. Cable networks IT'S while, I knew
i personally knew how special my, daughter was it was
(40:11):
really really nice to see how special she was to.
The world and, you know even to, THIS day i
still get messages and that's amazing, to see, you know
she really is still making an impact on people. ALL
over i hate, when people as they said it a
lot in, the beginning we'll just get off, the internet
stay off. Social media but why WHY should i not
be able to Get supports like there are so many
(40:34):
good support Groups, on facebook, you know for parents that
have lost, their children or, grief groups and ESPECIALLY. Through covid,
YOU know covid happened just a few months after. Her
passing and WHY can i not connect for support or
stay in contact with my family just because there's a
certain set of evil people that want to. Ruin THINGS
(40:56):
so i always hated that when people, Were like i'll just. Stay,
off no why don't we regulate it and make it safe?
For everyone it just needs to. BE safer i think
our laws have not caught up to the technology and.
THE times, i mean just as recently As The charlie.
Clark murder no one needs to see someone, getting, shot
(41:19):
right even like the new channels that, we're showing like
the blurred, out video you can report on news without
having to show something That, GRAPHIC like i feel like
people have just become so desensitized and it's just it's things.
Like that it's just NOT necessary. I don't i don't
understand the sensationalism and how people just don't think anything
(41:41):
of watching someone get shot. AND die i don't, understand
it but, it definitely, you know our society has just
become way too desensitized. To violence, so yes we, need
regulation we. NEED laws i don't Know that i'll ever.
Accept it how do you accept that your daughter is never?
Coming home, you know this seventeen year old, Healthy GIRL
(42:06):
and i.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
DON'T know i.
Speaker 3 (42:07):
DON'T know i think that we just survive.
Speaker 5 (42:10):
Each day was there also a scholarship Formed in?
Speaker 3 (42:16):
Bianca's, name yes so we formed a scholarship and the
scholarship goes to a college student at our local university
that is pursuing psychology and specifically with the intent to work.
With adolescents so kind of a way to help people
(42:37):
To achieve.
Speaker 1 (42:37):
Bianca's, dream finally We, ASKED kim, i said any final
ways She'd like bianca's memory to be?
Speaker 3 (42:45):
Carried on Be, like bianca, be kind don't spread negativity on.
The internet.
Speaker 1 (42:54):
For more information on the case and, relevant photos follow
Us on Instagram at Kati On. Score Studios in cells
is Produced By Stephanie Leideger gabriel castillo And Me. Courtney
armstrong additional Producing By connor Powell And, Carolyn miller Editing By,
jeff tooi Music By. Vanicore Studios in cells is a
(43:18):
PRODUCTION Of kt Studios And. iHeart radio for more podcasts,
like this Visit the, iHeartRadio App, apple podcasts or wherever
you listen to your. Favorite shows
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