December 3, 2025 • 35 mins
From small changes in behavior to deeper immersion in toxic online spaces, the digital age is creating new dangers for isolated young men. Firsthand accounts reveal what to watch for and the steps families can take to prevent harm.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.
I'm a loser if also we know what I'm paying
me either a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against
women at a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide. I
see literally zero hope.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
This is In Cells, a production of KT Studios and
iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode eleven. What's the solve?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I think that's the hardest part of it.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
You probably could have stepped in earlier, but it's almost
like you don't want to see what's really happening in
front of your face.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
We're asking, essentially these kids to be really, really safe
and behaved in a live environment worth billions and billions
of people just saying all the things, posting all the things.
Do we have to give them a fully accessible outlet
to the world in the palm of their hands any
earlier than necessary, I already know.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker,
Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. Throughout this series,
we've heard from self described in Cells experts, journalists, victims, families,
and advocates, but from a different perspective. We wanted to
talk with someone who's witnessed the shift up close, someone
(01:24):
who's actually seen a young man fall into insuldom. Our
goal here is to share the early signs, to watch
out for the moments that may show up in the
lives of people you know, and how to step in
if possible. We also wanted to look toward prevention, simple
actionable steps families can take before any issues arise. Later
(01:45):
in the episode, we'll hear from digital safety expert Katie
Greer about what that can look like. But first, here's Weezy.
She works closely with boys and young men, often in
those critical years when confidence, identity, and below are being shaped.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I own a sports therapy practice and I'm basically it's
my job to recover athletes from sports related injuries.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So that's what I do for a living.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
So self actualization through fitness is kind of my bag.
So I have a lot of young men that will
connect to me, that will be asking me questions. My
inbox is usually always open. Right now, I have about
six or seven kids that are asking me questions about fitness.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, they saw this on Instagram. What do I think
of it.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
They'll come, they'll have questions, they'll want to hear something,
and they want to hear something positive from a woman.
So I leave myself open online. Probably not the best
thing in the world, but I do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
We connected with Wheezy after reaching out on Twitter looking
for someone who had witnessed these transformations firsthand. We wanted
to know what the early signs look like and what
the rest of us might take from her experience. Our
first question to her was simple, why speak with us?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I want to talk about these experiences from a kind
of neutral perspective because I actually saw one of these
situations go down in real time through someone that I
had connected with. I see what happens to these young men,
and it hurts my heart to see because I saw
somebody with potential destroy that potential all on their own
because they got in with the wrong people who were
(03:21):
feeding them information or just lies basically, and getting them
to think things that just weren't true. A lot of times,
these kids are lost, they're lost, they're broken, and they're
looking for somebody to tell them that they're not. And
the people that create these insults are the people that
are preying on them for their own gain, at least
from what I can see.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
We knew Weezy's experience centered around one man in particular,
so he asked her to take us back to the beginning.
How she first met him.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It was online through discord and there's a Twitch channel
for the NHL team that I'm contracted through.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I met him. He had just turned towards he was
in college.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
He was talking about fitness because he had access to
the sports complex that was part of the.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
College, and so we went over diet, We went over
all kinds of different things, and that was fine.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That was perfectly fine, you know, it was just kind
of lose weight and look better.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Okay. Well, over time, we're connecting and we were.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Talking and I noticed small things though it was here
there that's bitter of he was trying to date and
he wasn't having success.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And then he started.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Talking to me about how he didn't work out that
day because he was feeling this and that over something
that happened at a party, and that's when the discussions
went into that way. And sometimes that happens, Like you
have your your clients that you're as much a therapy session.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
As you are a training session.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
It was one of those things where he got into
college and I think he expected when he got to
college that he was going to just be like dating
and doing the whole frack boy thing. And when that
didn't have happened, one of the things that I did
with him and when we talked, was I said, well,
what's happening in your life? What's going on with you
right now? Where do you feel like you're failing? We
(05:10):
could have those conversations, but soon it reached the point
where the issue wasn't oh, well, maybe I came on
too strong with this, so the thing is, oh, she's
just a stuck up bitch. Once or twice you hear that,
But you started seeing it more and more that it
wasn't me, it was them. It's the no self accountability,
and the self accountability that was there in the beginning
(05:33):
gradually eroded to the point where every interaction was her
fault and it was just because she doesn't want a
nice guy, and it was always that nice guy or
women don't want to be treated properly. Okay, that's not
what that interaction was.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Weezy started to notice a shift. The self reflection he
once had was gone and when real life didn't match
that fantasy, his frustration grew. Weezy tried to see him
toward working on himself. First.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
It got to the point where we couldn't analyze the
interactions anymore and say where one or both people might
have went wrong or in a perfect world, how would
you have liked that to go? And okay, well why
do you think it didn't go that way? But he
reached the point where that analysis couldn't take place. And
it also haided when he was trying to get out
and dating, and he expected dating to go.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
A certain way that it wasn't. And that's where I
think a lot of these kids go wrong.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
They're given this idealized fantasy of what walking up to
a woman or dming her through an app it's supposed
to follow this script. And I was trying to convince
him that he had some stuff he needed to work
through before he considered dating, and maybe that's why things
weren't going so well.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
But instead he.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Was listening to these podcasts and I noticed his demeanor,
the way he talked, the phrases he was using. It
evolved or devolved, I would say, into something that was
just mean spirited nasty and misogynistic.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
The podcasts Wheezy as referring to are just one slice
of the misogynistic media these young men often fall into.
And the shift she noticed in his demeanor is something
experts and parents consistently describe when a young man suddenly
adopts an new language, harsher attitudes, or an unfamiliar worldview.
Those are early red flags and they shouldn't be ignored.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
It's almost like misogynistic alpha male, where it's about sleeping
with as many women as you can and treating them
all like garbage. It's more of she needs to be
submissive to you, and the bitch needs to know her place.
You can cheat on her as much as you want.
She better not even look at another man. She better
stay home, rely on you. You need to hurt be
(07:54):
her protector or provider, but she needs to toe the
line and you're.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Gonna kick her to the curb. Like just nasty stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
And I know to guide young men away from them,
because they're not teaching them anything that is going to
get them a good life partner. They're teaching them how
to be abusive to their life partner.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It's gross.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It starts really really small you see a little thing
here and there, and you're like, oh, I'm just reading
too much into it. He's having a bad day, he
said something pissy. Okay, you overlook it, but it's something
that kind of snowballs. And where it's snowballs is really
just all of a sudden, you look up and this
person is just saying things. You're like, it's like it's
somebody you don't know. It's weird how fast it happens.
(08:35):
It seems like it's become his personality. He talks like them,
it's alpha, it's this, it's that, And whenever he gets rejected,
it's this long diatribe about how women just don't want
to be treated right. And it's a constant thing. And
it's like, oh, honey, no, you're creating the problem that
you think that this is solving.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It's like there's a point of no return.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
And some of the young men that I've dealt with,
where they have these emotions and they don't know how
to channel them. I've noticed that when you discuss them,
you validate their feelings and you teach them how to
process them that they don't go down this path. This
particular kid that we're talking about that went down this
in cell path wasn't given that, and he found people
(09:19):
in his life outside that were willing to tell him
what he wanted to hear for their own self gratification.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
The young man Wheezy had been describing wasn't getting the
guidance he needed at home, and he ended up finding
it from people who told them exactly what he wanted
to hear for all the wrong reasons. Wheezy says that
pattern isn't unique, and his story shows just how quickly
these communities can exploit kids who are already hurting.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
They basically prayed on him. They take money from these
kids and they tell them that they need to be
hyper sexual, but then they shame them for it. They
create this problem, they shame them for it, and they
tell them, well, I had the way to fix it
as an outsider. It's just like you get so mad
at these people. These are the kind of kids that
(10:10):
these red pillars go after. They're broken, they're lost, they're hurt.
It's heartbreaking, it really is, because what these kids really
just need is someone to say, yes, you're worth being loved.
They're told that they can feel better and they'll heal
if they just fuck.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Enough women in a nutshell.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
They're pips, and they want these boys to go after
the women like that because they sell cam girls. They're
just doing this to line their own pockets. They don't
give a shit about these kids. They'll tell them whatever
lies they want to hear so that they'll continue to
pay into their cam service.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Our last conversation was probably about.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
A year ago, and his ideology turns something very wholesome
into something disgusting and toxic.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
At first, it was subtle, repeating catch phrases from the
podcast he'd been listening to, mimicking the swagger of the
influencers he adalyzed little things she brushed off as a phase.
But over a few months it became his whole personality,
and the young man she knew was harder and harder
to recognize.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
He had that kind of monkey see monkey doo attitude
towards what he was listening to. It was a lot
of the phrases that they use on these podcasts, and
then they became like his lexicon over time. It probably
took about six months for it to be like for
the final transformation. It's something that doesn't happen overnight. It
happens over time, and I think in the initial two
(11:41):
months or so, it's so gradual that I don't feel
like I noticed it as being a problem until it
got to the point where I couldn't ignore it anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And I think it's.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Because I knew what it was like before, and I
was thinking that, Okay, this is just a phase. He's
just having a bad patch. But it kept getting worse.
And I think that's what happens in these cases, is
we see it getting there, but we know the sweet
guy that he used to be, and we keep holding
out hope that he's going to revert back to that,
(12:12):
But then they don't. I think that's the hardest part
of it. You probably could have stepped in earlier, but
it's almost like you don't want to see what's really
happening in front of your face, that you don't step
in when you probably should.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And if you do, is it going to do anything?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Weezy said, that's what makes this pattern so difficult. You
hope they'll snap out of it, but the shift keeps deepening,
and beneath it all, many of these boys and men
are hurting far more than they let on.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I listen to them because if somebody's crying, they hurt.
Understanding the suicide rates in men, how high they are
is because they feel like they have no one they
can come to. That's a problem. There is no reason
why someone should be so out of hope that they
take their own lives. We need to get to them
and just be like, hey, reach your hand out and say, hey,
you're hurt.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I give a shit, come here. Most of the time.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Just sitting there listening to them, and I find keeps
them from going down this road. Really is just to
listen to them and let them know that they're hurt
and that's okay. How do we help you heal? Why
do they feel this way? And how do we fix it?
Is the conversation we should be having. We're just talking
about how it's toxic masculinity, and I don't think that
(13:28):
helps when someone is lonely and isolated. It has a
lot to do with the social media age, because we
are the most connected we've ever been, but also the
loneliest because.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
We connect online.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
But those relationships are parasocial, They're not real, and I
think that we have lost the ability to create relationships.
I've been doing this for twenty five years, and I've
watched the difference in the way that the generations interact.
And I have kids that have panic attacks making phone calls,
(14:02):
and that's the conversation we should be having, is how
do we teach these kids to have healthy relationships and
to form healthy relationships in the insul conversation, That's the
conversation we're having, is that why are they so lonely
and lost? And how do we get to them and
(14:22):
get to that hurt place and help them figure it out.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Here's a conversation I had with Katie Greer.
(14:56):
She's CEO, founder, and keynote speaker of k L. Greer Consulting.
It's an educational consulting company that talks to students pre
k through college, to parents, caregivers, law enforcement, and corporations
about how we can use tech in thoughtful, safe, and
productive ways to understand what prevention actually looks like. We
(15:19):
spoke with Katie about practical, actionable tech steps families can take.
This goes from protecting young children to helping adults who
may already need intervention. We started by asking her about
kids preschool through second grade. Here's Katie Greer.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
I think one of our issues is that we don't
start early enough.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
No matter what you feel or what your.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Rules are around technology access, the reality of the situation
is that technology is all around us. So having these
conversations early and often around our expectations and rules in
our household and how this is going to work, or
you know, Mommy is going to make sure I put
my phone down when I'm driving, or that Mom's not
going to use my phone at dinner because it's not
(16:06):
polite when I'm trying to eat dinner and talk to you.
And we can start this stuff when our kids can talk.
Quite frankly, it's like, how do you cross the road?
Speaker 5 (16:14):
Right?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
I think it is vitally important given the technology a
driven world that we live in right now.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
And that makes a lot of sense just literally leading
by example to start.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
We have to be better about this too if we
want our kids to be good at it.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
And I think if we can admit.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
That without feeling shamed by the way, like, look, we
were given this stuff without any instructions, without knowing what
it was going to do to us, without knowing that
it was going to.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Sluck us in like it did.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Then we hit COVID, where we didn't know if we'd
ever be able to talk to people again in person.
So like, be gentle with yourselves, but like ask yourself,
can we be better going forward?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So moving on to more elementary school.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
The amount of parents that don't know what these kids
have access to even as early as third grade is
something that is alarming and a bit.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Frightening from my perspective. At least.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
One of the things I think of immediately is like
gaming right online gaming and the amount of parents that
don't know that their kids can actually game with random strangers.
The amount of parents who just think that their kids
are gaming like we used to with Nintendo, or that
they're only playing with their friends, or like why would
they even want to talk.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
To a stranger?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I think that that is wildly overlooked by parents. So
I think in this period is where parents really need
to start to like dig in a bit and learn
learn along with your kids. Right roadblocks. Right has had
a lot of issues lately, basically unknowingly exposing kids to
(17:43):
a bunch of really adult related stuff and parents also
not having any idea that these kids can join user
generated worlds that are super inappropriate.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
With kids encountering these platforms younger and younger, we wanted
to know the practical side. What steps can parents take
right now to keep their children safe.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
This is the time that parents need to do some
homework and learn about things, and by the way, really
great news technology can help us with that.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Go to chat GPT.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Hey, my fourth grader wants to hop on roadblocks with
his friends or her friends. What do I need to
know about roadblocks?
Speaker 5 (18:24):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
What's dangerous about it? What's great about it? What are
some settings I can use to keep my kids safe?
Ask chatchept really really great resource for us to have.
This is the time that it goes from me telling
my kids what to do or not to do, to
me being really involved in the stuff that they're starting
to do, because I think the earlier we have these
conversations and we set these rules and expectations, the easier
(18:47):
it is when they get older.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Are you a big fan of parents putting into place settings?
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I am with the caveat that all of these settings
that are out there, there's some adorable twelve year old
that talks about how to get around those settings. So
we can't just slap those on our kids' devices and
think that our job is done, Like we are the
first line of defense. So while I think they're helpful,
I think there could be a tool, They're not the
only thing that's going to help the kids stay safe.
(19:16):
So knowing that that is an option and something that
can help you out is great, But relying on it
is where I get nervous.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
What goes on in middle school?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
What do people need to know?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (19:26):
God, where do we start? Bigger kids, bigger problems? Right?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
This is when the settings and the rules really need
to come in because this is developmentally, not because kids
are horrible, and not because technology is horrible, but developmentally,
these kids are going through a lot, and hormones are changing,
and friend groups are changing, and kids are getting more
access to devices earlier and earlier, and now they're getting
access to social media, and now we have to really
(19:51):
execute and our heads have to kind of be on
a swivel to hope that we can get our kids
to a place and practice what we preach.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
These are when things that I start.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
To worry about can happen, like group chats and access
to videos that we didn't want them to have access to.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Here's where the big conversations start to come in about what.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
It is that we're seeing, asking them every day about
did you see things that made you feel good?
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Did you see things that you had questions about?
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Our kids are being pummeled at that age, that middle
school age, with so much information, whether it's from classmates
or the Internet or social media, that we got to
roll up our sleeves at that point and start to
really ask some of the tough questions.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Researchers have run tests creating accounts as twelve year olds,
and consistently, in under half an hour, those accounts were
hit with alarming content they never searched for. It's almost
like the Internet was coming for them. I asked Katie
what our thoughts on this were.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
This has been replicated so many times, and you know
what is a bit confusing that all of these companies
now know this meta TikTok Snapchat, and what they've done
is they've put in filters that says, if your child
signs up as someone under the age of sixteen, we
have these automatic filters in place that will filter out
all this stuff. And we know that filters are shoddy,
They are inconsistent at best. And even if they were great,
(21:19):
something that filters out the word sex, I'm going to
learn as a creator who wants more views, I don't
care if they're five years old or fifty five years old.
If I want more views, I'm going to learn that
sex is being blocked out. So I'm going to do
dollar sign ex instead. So now even that wonderful filter
that may pick up all sex is going to go
around that.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
It's the constant cat and mouse game. So I'm happy
that companies are starting to pay attention to this stuff.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
I don't think it's nearly enough, quite frankly, and it
is kind of this false sense of security that exists
out there because filters, like I said, are inconsistent, and
even when they are consistent, people figure out how to
circumvent them. So that means nothing to me at this
moment that the way that filters are working and the
way that these sets are does not make me feel
any better about the content that my kids may or
(22:03):
may not see looking for or not under the age
of sixteen on these social media apps. So with high
schoolers again, that brain from elementary school to post graduation
of college, we know that kids' brains aren't fully formed
until they're twenty five years old. And when we think
about social media in particular, which we could talk about anything.
(22:24):
We could talk about group text messages or Google searches
or YouTube or whatever, it doesn't really matter. But if
we think about social media or the Internet in general,
it's a live environment where there are billions and billions
of people active, and it's not entirely live moderated. So
we're asking essentially these kids to be really really proficient
and good and safe and behaved in a live environment
(22:47):
with billions of people just saying all the things, posting
all the things, and expecting that they're going to be
really good at it. That can't be developmentally biologically speaking,
they cannot.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
They're not.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
I like to think as a parent, I think she
would make the right choices, but it's not even about
that at this point. It's about what other people are
doing or saying. This has been an existence long parenting dilemma,
like how do we keep our kids safe?
Speaker 5 (23:12):
We don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
We have to practice. It's practice, and we got to
show up as parents to help them practice. In high school, specifically,
I asked.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Katie how she handles tech with her own kids when
she introduces certain devices, and the reasoning behind her approach.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
I didn't get my daughter a phone, her own device
until she was fourteen this past August and going into
a freshman year in high school, because that's what I
decided for my family and for my daughter, and I
thought that it was really important to have rules, written,
rules established, Like we've talked about rules, since she could
talk around devices even though she didn't have access to them,
(23:48):
but I wanted to establish written rules that I wrote,
that she read.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
And agreed and signed to.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
To put in writing, which I think is kind of
significant and symbolic my expectation around this device, which I
have paid.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
For I continue to pay for.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
It is a privilege which I wanted to be treated
as such that can also be taken away should there
be violations.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
For me, creating this contract for her.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Which is three pages long, twelve point font, double sided,
was not just about do this, don't do this, you
can't look at this, no social media.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
It was also about being polite with.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Devices, because devices have made us so impolite. And imagine
if I was like talking to you here right now,
just being like yeah, and I'm focused on you and
I'm talking, but everyone's in a while, I'm glancing at
my phone and every once in a while I'm chit
chatting like this, Like that just made it's not polite.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
So a big part of.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
This for me was about creating a polite consumer as
well as like, yeah, don't do stupid stuff, So that
was included a lot in my contract. Courteous behavior when
it comes to devices is something that I think our
society has really freaking failed that, and I don't want
my kids to fail, So that was a big part
of this contract.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I was curious if there's an ideal age for kids
to get their own devices or how parents should approach
that decision.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I have a really bad answer to that, and that
is it's not a one size fits all. Kids should
get devices at X years old and they're all going
to be fine. I think it is very very individual.
I'll tell you, within my own family, my daughter and
my son, just because I gave my daughter a phone
at fourteen years old does not mean that my son
is going to get the same privilege, or that I
wouldn't do it sooner, or that I wouldn't do it
(25:30):
way later. That's going to be different than it is
with my daughter. So I guess I really encourage parents
to think about their family needs. One, why did your
family need kids to have access to devices? And there's
some really good answers stuff by the way, like maybe
my kids come home alone in the afternoon because I'm working.
So look at your family's needs and answer that why
(25:51):
do they need it? Not?
Speaker 5 (25:53):
And by the way, I am.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Really against the well they need it because everyone else
has it thing they don't. I promise, I promise there
are ways around it. I promise there are ways to
socialize without it.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
So what are our family needs? Number one? And number two?
Speaker 4 (26:06):
The individuals who are being given these privileges, whether it's
devices or social media, and their individual needs as well.
So I guess I really implore parents to think about
why and why for each member of their household. You know,
their alternatives too, right, My daughter had a gizmo watch
so I could still be in touch with her and
(26:27):
she could be in touch with me. And not saying
your child has to be like an outcast not have
any former communication, but like, do we have to give
them a fully accessible outlet to the world in the
palm of their hands any earlier than necessary. I alreadue,
you know, but I'll say this one final thing. I've
never met a parent that gave their child the device
at any age and said I did that right. That
(26:48):
was the exact right, like all parents are, like I
wish I had waited, I wish i'd and I still
wish I could have waited. So I yeah, really really
taking that into consideration is important, and I think definitely
having a backbone as a parent being like it.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Sucks, I get it, trust me. My daughter cried to
me all the time.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
She made a really beautiful PowerPoint about why she should
have her own device many Christmases in a row, and
it sucks and I'm the worst mom and I don't
get it and all these things. I had to weigh
out the pros and the cons for my family and
for her. And that's kind of where we landed, which
may be different than where other people land and that's okay,
think about it and think about it like long and hard.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. We then moved on to one of the
(27:54):
most common danger zones online gaming. I asked, Katie, what's
your family do when kids are playing with strangers or
frighteningly when someone contacts them who shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Well, first, I like to be preventative about this. It
is amazing to me how many people just don't know
that's how games work. The fact that parents don't know
that kids can play against other people, I think is important,
and the fact that they can play against complete random strangers.
That's how these things are set up. So I think
first and foremost prevention is really important. So for adults
(28:30):
to in caregivers to say know this and be also
use some settings in these games around these consoles so
that kids aren't just randomly talking to complete random strangers.
Every single game that exists out there has these settings
that you can utilize either within the game or in
the consoles themselves, so that kids can still play these games,
but they're not playing against people in who'z Bekistan half
(28:53):
the Night on Minecraft or Fortnite or Call of Duty
or whatever it may be.
Speaker 5 (28:58):
So I think that is a really really big thing.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Is that something you would suggest people chat GBT to
figure out how to prevent.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
So the good news is that there's a whole bunch
of ways, and there's a whole bunch of settings in
every game, So I would just say.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
My son is playing Call of Duty on his switch,
he's eight years old or he's eighteen years old.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
How do I make this safe?
Speaker 4 (29:23):
What are some settings that I can use to make
sure he's not talking to strangers? To make sure those
locations not being shared? And can you walk me through
how to do that?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The location sharing?
Speaker 4 (29:32):
That location sharing is on freaking everything right now, and
most of it is opt out, which I hate, meaning
that most of it is automatically on and you have
to go in and turn it off. In social networking,
it's just really disturbing. But I'll also make another point,
especially with middle school and high school students, it's kind
of like a status thing to share that in high school,
(29:54):
in middle school, even in college sometimes it is a
staddust thing, like we're besties. I trust you, you trust me,
like you know that I'm going to Sephora right now
or that I'm just hanging out at my house. But
it also causes so much drama. And it's also so
when we talk about healthy relationships, that is not healthy.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
That is not healthy.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Maybe it's healthy as a mom that I know where
my kid goes, but it's not healthy that my friends know,
unless it's a safety issue. I guess just in general,
that our friends know where we are, or our boyfriends
or partners or girlfriends know we are every second of
the day.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I think that that is weird personally, and I think
it can be dangerous. Also today, if I know that
you're checking in at a concert or whatever, you're at
your baseball game, have a blast. I'm coming to rob
your goddamn house also because I know that you're not home, so,
like you know what I mean. Hopefully normal people aren't
programmed to think, oh, I'm just sharing them I'm having
(30:47):
a really great lunch with my friend, that someone's going
to go rob my house or someone's going to track
my movements.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
But your listeners no more than anyone else.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
There's weird goddamn people out there that maybe don't think
like we do. So if we can be better about
that stuff, by the way, spill that information to our
kids too.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Why it might not be a good idea to do
something like that.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Do you talk about Internet addiction and what to do
with that, because that seems endemic.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Do you have like six hours?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
I think the crux of this quite frankly, is something
I kind of touched upon earlier, which is.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
It was not our fault to begin with.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
I should say maybe it's our fault going forward now
that we know what we know, And what I mean
by that is, like this stuff when it came out
to us, we didn't think to ask any questions about
what does this mean?
Speaker 5 (31:27):
What does this do? How do these things operate? Now
that we know better and we.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Have undisputable brain scans and research and every day I
don't even know what stats to share anymore because they're
all just so overwhelming. I think we need to acknowledge
that this is a thing. It's a thing for adults,
not just kids. As we're like shaking our fingers at
kids these days being so bad with technology, we statistically
are worse than there. So we got to fix the problem.
(31:54):
Can we just ask ourselves? Can I be better about
my screen time today than I was yesterday? I don't
need you to ditch the phone all together, but like,
are there things that we can be better at every
single day? Because it's truly not just for our not
just because, but for our mental health. Right anxiety and
depression is through the roof and for our physical health,
for our relationships. Can we be better and put the
(32:16):
stuff down? Can we be better parents? Can we be
better workers? I know I sure as hell could be.
If I put.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
My phone on, do not deserve a little bit?
Speaker 4 (32:24):
I get a lot more shit done then I would,
as it's sit near buzzin' and ding in twenty five
times a minute, and then I get sidetracked and whatever
I think? Can we ask ourselves every day? Can we
be better at this tomorrow than we were today? And
maybe we can start to build better habits.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
With adults, it can be even trickier. I gave the
hypothetical of someone in their twenties who barely logs off
and is growing more isolated. I asked if there were
any tips on how to help when an adult is
being consumed by life online.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
I think one of the things that is a misconception
across the board, but certainly for adults too.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
We're not talking about no tech here. We're not talking
about throw that thing away you're addicted.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I encourage people to think about is it's not just
about put your phone away, It's about look at the
other things that we can do to get the same
Dopamine hit but in a different way because again, like
we could talk about this for hours, there's this whole
dopamine cycle that we get and it's a physiological response
to using these devices, into notifications, into all of the things.
(33:28):
But we can get that physiological response from other things,
from going on for a walk, from playing games, from
talking to people, from exercising, from reading a book, from
all these other things.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
So can we introduce that.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Can we say things not like you're addicted, can you
get off your phone.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
Get off your computer? Or weirdo, why you want.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It as much?
Speaker 4 (33:47):
But can we say something like, hey, tonight at four o'clock,
we're gonna have a game night, or we're all gonna
go for a family walk together. So I'm not taking
my device, we're putting devices away. We're doing family game night,
and then we're having family dinner. We're doing a family
movie night tomorrow night. Which also we have research that
having a family movie night without devices is different than
us all sitting on our couches on devices. We're engaging,
(34:08):
we're snuggling, we're laughing at the movie together saying like
oh did you hear what he just said or whatever.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
That's a good form of engagement with screens.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
So I think replacing or suggesting other things can be
a really great way to prompt people that might be
really far down this path into other alternatives that make
your body and your mind feel just as good, but
just doing something different.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. In Cells is
produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by
Jeff Ti, music by Vanicorse. Studios. In Cells is a
(35:01):
production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts
like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
From the dark corners of the web, an emerging mindset.
I'm a loser if also we know what I'm paying
me either a hidden world of resentment, cynicism, anger against
women at a deadly tipping point.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
In Cells will be added to the Terrorism Guide. I
see literally zero hope.
Speaker 1 (00:18):
This is In Cells, a production of KT Studios and
iHeart Podcasts, Season one, Episode eleven. What's the solve?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I think that's the hardest part of it.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
You probably could have stepped in earlier, but it's almost
like you don't want to see what's really happening in
front of your face.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
We're asking, essentially these kids to be really, really safe
and behaved in a live environment worth billions and billions
of people just saying all the things, posting all the things.
Do we have to give them a fully accessible outlet
to the world in the palm of their hands any
earlier than necessary, I already know.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
I'm Courtney Armstrong, a producer at Katie's Studios with Stephanie Leidecker,
Gabriel Castillo, Connor Powell, and Carolyn Miller. Throughout this series,
we've heard from self described in Cells experts, journalists, victims, families,
and advocates, but from a different perspective. We wanted to
talk with someone who's witnessed the shift up close, someone
(01:24):
who's actually seen a young man fall into insuldom. Our
goal here is to share the early signs, to watch
out for the moments that may show up in the
lives of people you know, and how to step in
if possible. We also wanted to look toward prevention, simple
actionable steps families can take before any issues arise. Later
(01:45):
in the episode, we'll hear from digital safety expert Katie
Greer about what that can look like. But first, here's Weezy.
She works closely with boys and young men, often in
those critical years when confidence, identity, and below are being shaped.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
I own a sports therapy practice and I'm basically it's
my job to recover athletes from sports related injuries.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
So that's what I do for a living.
Speaker 3 (02:11):
So self actualization through fitness is kind of my bag.
So I have a lot of young men that will
connect to me, that will be asking me questions. My
inbox is usually always open. Right now, I have about
six or seven kids that are asking me questions about fitness.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Well, they saw this on Instagram. What do I think
of it.
Speaker 3 (02:29):
They'll come, they'll have questions, they'll want to hear something,
and they want to hear something positive from a woman.
So I leave myself open online. Probably not the best
thing in the world, but I do it anyway.
Speaker 1 (02:42):
We connected with Wheezy after reaching out on Twitter looking
for someone who had witnessed these transformations firsthand. We wanted
to know what the early signs look like and what
the rest of us might take from her experience. Our
first question to her was simple, why speak with us?
Speaker 3 (03:00):
I want to talk about these experiences from a kind
of neutral perspective because I actually saw one of these
situations go down in real time through someone that I
had connected with. I see what happens to these young men,
and it hurts my heart to see because I saw
somebody with potential destroy that potential all on their own
because they got in with the wrong people who were
(03:21):
feeding them information or just lies basically, and getting them
to think things that just weren't true. A lot of times,
these kids are lost, they're lost, they're broken, and they're
looking for somebody to tell them that they're not. And
the people that create these insults are the people that
are preying on them for their own gain, at least
from what I can see.
Speaker 1 (03:41):
We knew Weezy's experience centered around one man in particular,
so he asked her to take us back to the beginning.
How she first met him.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It was online through discord and there's a Twitch channel
for the NHL team that I'm contracted through.
Speaker 2 (03:58):
I met him. He had just turned towards he was
in college.
Speaker 3 (04:01):
He was talking about fitness because he had access to
the sports complex that was part of the.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
College, and so we went over diet, We went over
all kinds of different things, and that was fine.
Speaker 3 (04:13):
That was perfectly fine, you know, it was just kind
of lose weight and look better.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Okay. Well, over time, we're connecting and we were.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
Talking and I noticed small things though it was here
there that's bitter of he was trying to date and
he wasn't having success.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
And then he started.
Speaker 3 (04:31):
Talking to me about how he didn't work out that
day because he was feeling this and that over something
that happened at a party, and that's when the discussions
went into that way. And sometimes that happens, Like you
have your your clients that you're as much a therapy session.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
As you are a training session.
Speaker 3 (04:48):
It was one of those things where he got into
college and I think he expected when he got to
college that he was going to just be like dating
and doing the whole frack boy thing. And when that
didn't have happened, one of the things that I did
with him and when we talked, was I said, well,
what's happening in your life? What's going on with you
right now? Where do you feel like you're failing? We
(05:10):
could have those conversations, but soon it reached the point
where the issue wasn't oh, well, maybe I came on
too strong with this, so the thing is, oh, she's
just a stuck up bitch. Once or twice you hear that,
But you started seeing it more and more that it
wasn't me, it was them. It's the no self accountability,
and the self accountability that was there in the beginning
(05:33):
gradually eroded to the point where every interaction was her
fault and it was just because she doesn't want a
nice guy, and it was always that nice guy or
women don't want to be treated properly. Okay, that's not
what that interaction was.
Speaker 1 (05:50):
Weezy started to notice a shift. The self reflection he
once had was gone and when real life didn't match
that fantasy, his frustration grew. Weezy tried to see him
toward working on himself. First.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
It got to the point where we couldn't analyze the
interactions anymore and say where one or both people might
have went wrong or in a perfect world, how would
you have liked that to go? And okay, well why
do you think it didn't go that way? But he
reached the point where that analysis couldn't take place. And
it also haided when he was trying to get out
and dating, and he expected dating to go.
Speaker 2 (06:25):
A certain way that it wasn't. And that's where I
think a lot of these kids go wrong.
Speaker 3 (06:31):
They're given this idealized fantasy of what walking up to
a woman or dming her through an app it's supposed
to follow this script. And I was trying to convince
him that he had some stuff he needed to work
through before he considered dating, and maybe that's why things
weren't going so well.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
But instead he.
Speaker 3 (06:49):
Was listening to these podcasts and I noticed his demeanor,
the way he talked, the phrases he was using. It
evolved or devolved, I would say, into something that was
just mean spirited nasty and misogynistic.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
The podcasts Wheezy as referring to are just one slice
of the misogynistic media these young men often fall into.
And the shift she noticed in his demeanor is something
experts and parents consistently describe when a young man suddenly
adopts an new language, harsher attitudes, or an unfamiliar worldview.
Those are early red flags and they shouldn't be ignored.
Speaker 3 (07:32):
It's almost like misogynistic alpha male, where it's about sleeping
with as many women as you can and treating them
all like garbage. It's more of she needs to be
submissive to you, and the bitch needs to know her place.
You can cheat on her as much as you want.
She better not even look at another man. She better
stay home, rely on you. You need to hurt be
(07:54):
her protector or provider, but she needs to toe the
line and you're.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
Gonna kick her to the curb. Like just nasty stuff.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
And I know to guide young men away from them,
because they're not teaching them anything that is going to
get them a good life partner. They're teaching them how
to be abusive to their life partner.
Speaker 2 (08:11):
It's gross.
Speaker 3 (08:12):
It starts really really small you see a little thing
here and there, and you're like, oh, I'm just reading
too much into it. He's having a bad day, he
said something pissy. Okay, you overlook it, but it's something
that kind of snowballs. And where it's snowballs is really
just all of a sudden, you look up and this
person is just saying things. You're like, it's like it's
somebody you don't know. It's weird how fast it happens.
(08:35):
It seems like it's become his personality. He talks like them,
it's alpha, it's this, it's that, And whenever he gets rejected,
it's this long diatribe about how women just don't want
to be treated right. And it's a constant thing. And
it's like, oh, honey, no, you're creating the problem that
you think that this is solving.
Speaker 2 (08:53):
It's like there's a point of no return.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
And some of the young men that I've dealt with,
where they have these emotions and they don't know how
to channel them. I've noticed that when you discuss them,
you validate their feelings and you teach them how to
process them that they don't go down this path. This
particular kid that we're talking about that went down this
in cell path wasn't given that, and he found people
(09:19):
in his life outside that were willing to tell him
what he wanted to hear for their own self gratification.
Speaker 1 (09:28):
The young man Wheezy had been describing wasn't getting the
guidance he needed at home, and he ended up finding
it from people who told them exactly what he wanted
to hear for all the wrong reasons. Wheezy says that
pattern isn't unique, and his story shows just how quickly
these communities can exploit kids who are already hurting.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
They basically prayed on him. They take money from these
kids and they tell them that they need to be
hyper sexual, but then they shame them for it. They
create this problem, they shame them for it, and they
tell them, well, I had the way to fix it
as an outsider. It's just like you get so mad
at these people. These are the kind of kids that
(10:10):
these red pillars go after. They're broken, they're lost, they're hurt.
It's heartbreaking, it really is, because what these kids really
just need is someone to say, yes, you're worth being loved.
They're told that they can feel better and they'll heal
if they just fuck.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
Enough women in a nutshell.
Speaker 3 (10:29):
They're pips, and they want these boys to go after
the women like that because they sell cam girls. They're
just doing this to line their own pockets. They don't
give a shit about these kids. They'll tell them whatever
lies they want to hear so that they'll continue to
pay into their cam service.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
Our last conversation was probably about.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
A year ago, and his ideology turns something very wholesome
into something disgusting and toxic.
Speaker 1 (11:00):
At first, it was subtle, repeating catch phrases from the
podcast he'd been listening to, mimicking the swagger of the
influencers he adalyzed little things she brushed off as a phase.
But over a few months it became his whole personality,
and the young man she knew was harder and harder
to recognize.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
He had that kind of monkey see monkey doo attitude
towards what he was listening to. It was a lot
of the phrases that they use on these podcasts, and
then they became like his lexicon over time. It probably
took about six months for it to be like for
the final transformation. It's something that doesn't happen overnight. It
happens over time, and I think in the initial two
(11:41):
months or so, it's so gradual that I don't feel
like I noticed it as being a problem until it
got to the point where I couldn't ignore it anymore.
Speaker 2 (11:51):
And I think it's.
Speaker 3 (11:52):
Because I knew what it was like before, and I
was thinking that, Okay, this is just a phase. He's
just having a bad patch. But it kept getting worse.
And I think that's what happens in these cases, is
we see it getting there, but we know the sweet
guy that he used to be, and we keep holding
out hope that he's going to revert back to that,
(12:12):
But then they don't. I think that's the hardest part
of it. You probably could have stepped in earlier, but
it's almost like you don't want to see what's really
happening in front of your face, that you don't step
in when you probably should.
Speaker 2 (12:26):
And if you do, is it going to do anything?
Speaker 1 (12:30):
Weezy said, that's what makes this pattern so difficult. You
hope they'll snap out of it, but the shift keeps deepening,
and beneath it all, many of these boys and men
are hurting far more than they let on.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I listen to them because if somebody's crying, they hurt.
Understanding the suicide rates in men, how high they are
is because they feel like they have no one they
can come to. That's a problem. There is no reason
why someone should be so out of hope that they
take their own lives. We need to get to them
and just be like, hey, reach your hand out and say, hey,
you're hurt.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
I give a shit, come here. Most of the time.
Speaker 3 (13:08):
Just sitting there listening to them, and I find keeps
them from going down this road. Really is just to
listen to them and let them know that they're hurt
and that's okay. How do we help you heal? Why
do they feel this way? And how do we fix it?
Is the conversation we should be having. We're just talking
about how it's toxic masculinity, and I don't think that
(13:28):
helps when someone is lonely and isolated. It has a
lot to do with the social media age, because we
are the most connected we've ever been, but also the
loneliest because.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
We connect online.
Speaker 3 (13:41):
But those relationships are parasocial, They're not real, and I
think that we have lost the ability to create relationships.
I've been doing this for twenty five years, and I've
watched the difference in the way that the generations interact.
And I have kids that have panic attacks making phone calls,
(14:02):
and that's the conversation we should be having, is how
do we teach these kids to have healthy relationships and
to form healthy relationships in the insul conversation, That's the
conversation we're having, is that why are they so lonely
and lost? And how do we get to them and
(14:22):
get to that hurt place and help them figure it out.
Speaker 1 (14:30):
Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in
a moment. Here's a conversation I had with Katie Greer.
(14:56):
She's CEO, founder, and keynote speaker of k L. Greer Consulting.
It's an educational consulting company that talks to students pre
k through college, to parents, caregivers, law enforcement, and corporations
about how we can use tech in thoughtful, safe, and
productive ways to understand what prevention actually looks like. We
(15:19):
spoke with Katie about practical, actionable tech steps families can take.
This goes from protecting young children to helping adults who
may already need intervention. We started by asking her about
kids preschool through second grade. Here's Katie Greer.
Speaker 4 (15:39):
I think one of our issues is that we don't
start early enough.
Speaker 5 (15:43):
No matter what you feel or what your.
Speaker 4 (15:45):
Rules are around technology access, the reality of the situation
is that technology is all around us. So having these
conversations early and often around our expectations and rules in
our household and how this is going to work, or
you know, Mommy is going to make sure I put
my phone down when I'm driving, or that Mom's not
going to use my phone at dinner because it's not
(16:06):
polite when I'm trying to eat dinner and talk to you.
And we can start this stuff when our kids can talk.
Quite frankly, it's like, how do you cross the road?
Speaker 5 (16:14):
Right?
Speaker 4 (16:15):
I think it is vitally important given the technology a
driven world that we live in right now.
Speaker 1 (16:20):
And that makes a lot of sense just literally leading
by example to start.
Speaker 4 (16:25):
We have to be better about this too if we
want our kids to be good at it.
Speaker 5 (16:28):
And I think if we can admit.
Speaker 4 (16:30):
That without feeling shamed by the way, like, look, we
were given this stuff without any instructions, without knowing what
it was going to do to us, without knowing that
it was going to.
Speaker 5 (16:38):
Sluck us in like it did.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
Then we hit COVID, where we didn't know if we'd
ever be able to talk to people again in person.
So like, be gentle with yourselves, but like ask yourself,
can we be better going forward?
Speaker 2 (16:49):
So moving on to more elementary school.
Speaker 4 (16:52):
The amount of parents that don't know what these kids
have access to even as early as third grade is
something that is alarming and a bit.
Speaker 5 (17:01):
Frightening from my perspective. At least.
Speaker 4 (17:04):
One of the things I think of immediately is like
gaming right online gaming and the amount of parents that
don't know that their kids can actually game with random strangers.
The amount of parents who just think that their kids
are gaming like we used to with Nintendo, or that
they're only playing with their friends, or like why would
they even want to talk.
Speaker 5 (17:21):
To a stranger?
Speaker 4 (17:23):
I think that that is wildly overlooked by parents. So
I think in this period is where parents really need
to start to like dig in a bit and learn
learn along with your kids. Right roadblocks. Right has had
a lot of issues lately, basically unknowingly exposing kids to
(17:43):
a bunch of really adult related stuff and parents also
not having any idea that these kids can join user
generated worlds that are super inappropriate.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
With kids encountering these platforms younger and younger, we wanted
to know the practical side. What steps can parents take
right now to keep their children safe.
Speaker 4 (18:08):
This is the time that parents need to do some
homework and learn about things, and by the way, really
great news technology can help us with that.
Speaker 5 (18:16):
Go to chat GPT.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Hey, my fourth grader wants to hop on roadblocks with
his friends or her friends. What do I need to
know about roadblocks?
Speaker 5 (18:24):
What is it?
Speaker 4 (18:25):
What's dangerous about it? What's great about it? What are
some settings I can use to keep my kids safe?
Ask chatchept really really great resource for us to have.
This is the time that it goes from me telling
my kids what to do or not to do, to
me being really involved in the stuff that they're starting
to do, because I think the earlier we have these
conversations and we set these rules and expectations, the easier
(18:47):
it is when they get older.
Speaker 1 (18:49):
Are you a big fan of parents putting into place settings?
Speaker 4 (18:54):
I am with the caveat that all of these settings
that are out there, there's some adorable twelve year old
that talks about how to get around those settings. So
we can't just slap those on our kids' devices and
think that our job is done, Like we are the
first line of defense. So while I think they're helpful,
I think there could be a tool, They're not the
only thing that's going to help the kids stay safe.
(19:16):
So knowing that that is an option and something that
can help you out is great, But relying on it
is where I get nervous.
Speaker 2 (19:23):
What goes on in middle school?
Speaker 1 (19:24):
What do people need to know?
Speaker 2 (19:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (19:26):
God, where do we start? Bigger kids, bigger problems? Right?
Speaker 4 (19:29):
This is when the settings and the rules really need
to come in because this is developmentally, not because kids
are horrible, and not because technology is horrible, but developmentally,
these kids are going through a lot, and hormones are changing,
and friend groups are changing, and kids are getting more
access to devices earlier and earlier, and now they're getting
access to social media, and now we have to really
(19:51):
execute and our heads have to kind of be on
a swivel to hope that we can get our kids
to a place and practice what we preach.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
These are when things that I start.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
To worry about can happen, like group chats and access
to videos that we didn't want them to have access to.
Speaker 5 (20:09):
Here's where the big conversations start to come in about what.
Speaker 4 (20:13):
It is that we're seeing, asking them every day about
did you see things that made you feel good?
Speaker 5 (20:18):
Did you see things that you had questions about?
Speaker 4 (20:20):
Our kids are being pummeled at that age, that middle
school age, with so much information, whether it's from classmates
or the Internet or social media, that we got to
roll up our sleeves at that point and start to
really ask some of the tough questions.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
Researchers have run tests creating accounts as twelve year olds,
and consistently, in under half an hour, those accounts were
hit with alarming content they never searched for. It's almost
like the Internet was coming for them. I asked Katie
what our thoughts on this were.
Speaker 4 (20:56):
This has been replicated so many times, and you know
what is a bit confusing that all of these companies
now know this meta TikTok Snapchat, and what they've done
is they've put in filters that says, if your child
signs up as someone under the age of sixteen, we
have these automatic filters in place that will filter out
all this stuff. And we know that filters are shoddy,
They are inconsistent at best. And even if they were great,
(21:19):
something that filters out the word sex, I'm going to
learn as a creator who wants more views, I don't
care if they're five years old or fifty five years old.
If I want more views, I'm going to learn that
sex is being blocked out. So I'm going to do
dollar sign ex instead. So now even that wonderful filter
that may pick up all sex is going to go
around that.
Speaker 5 (21:37):
It's the constant cat and mouse game. So I'm happy
that companies are starting to pay attention to this stuff.
Speaker 4 (21:42):
I don't think it's nearly enough, quite frankly, and it
is kind of this false sense of security that exists
out there because filters, like I said, are inconsistent, and
even when they are consistent, people figure out how to
circumvent them. So that means nothing to me at this
moment that the way that filters are working and the
way that these sets are does not make me feel
any better about the content that my kids may or
(22:03):
may not see looking for or not under the age
of sixteen on these social media apps. So with high
schoolers again, that brain from elementary school to post graduation
of college, we know that kids' brains aren't fully formed
until they're twenty five years old. And when we think
about social media in particular, which we could talk about anything.
(22:24):
We could talk about group text messages or Google searches
or YouTube or whatever, it doesn't really matter. But if
we think about social media or the Internet in general,
it's a live environment where there are billions and billions
of people active, and it's not entirely live moderated. So
we're asking essentially these kids to be really really proficient
and good and safe and behaved in a live environment
(22:47):
with billions of people just saying all the things, posting
all the things, and expecting that they're going to be
really good at it. That can't be developmentally biologically speaking,
they cannot.
Speaker 5 (22:57):
They're not.
Speaker 4 (22:58):
I like to think as a parent, I think she
would make the right choices, but it's not even about
that at this point. It's about what other people are
doing or saying. This has been an existence long parenting dilemma,
like how do we keep our kids safe?
Speaker 5 (23:12):
We don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:13):
We have to practice. It's practice, and we got to
show up as parents to help them practice. In high school, specifically,
I asked.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Katie how she handles tech with her own kids when
she introduces certain devices, and the reasoning behind her approach.
Speaker 4 (23:28):
I didn't get my daughter a phone, her own device
until she was fourteen this past August and going into
a freshman year in high school, because that's what I
decided for my family and for my daughter, and I
thought that it was really important to have rules, written,
rules established, Like we've talked about rules, since she could
talk around devices even though she didn't have access to them,
(23:48):
but I wanted to establish written rules that I wrote,
that she read.
Speaker 5 (23:52):
And agreed and signed to.
Speaker 4 (23:54):
To put in writing, which I think is kind of
significant and symbolic my expectation around this device, which I
have paid.
Speaker 5 (24:02):
For I continue to pay for.
Speaker 4 (24:04):
It is a privilege which I wanted to be treated
as such that can also be taken away should there
be violations.
Speaker 5 (24:10):
For me, creating this contract for her.
Speaker 4 (24:12):
Which is three pages long, twelve point font, double sided,
was not just about do this, don't do this, you
can't look at this, no social media.
Speaker 5 (24:20):
It was also about being polite with.
Speaker 4 (24:23):
Devices, because devices have made us so impolite. And imagine
if I was like talking to you here right now,
just being like yeah, and I'm focused on you and
I'm talking, but everyone's in a while, I'm glancing at
my phone and every once in a while I'm chit
chatting like this, Like that just made it's not polite.
Speaker 5 (24:37):
So a big part of.
Speaker 4 (24:39):
This for me was about creating a polite consumer as
well as like, yeah, don't do stupid stuff, So that
was included a lot in my contract. Courteous behavior when
it comes to devices is something that I think our
society has really freaking failed that, and I don't want
my kids to fail, So that was a big part
of this contract.
Speaker 1 (25:01):
I was curious if there's an ideal age for kids
to get their own devices or how parents should approach
that decision.
Speaker 4 (25:09):
I have a really bad answer to that, and that
is it's not a one size fits all. Kids should
get devices at X years old and they're all going
to be fine. I think it is very very individual.
I'll tell you, within my own family, my daughter and
my son, just because I gave my daughter a phone
at fourteen years old does not mean that my son
is going to get the same privilege, or that I
wouldn't do it sooner, or that I wouldn't do it
(25:30):
way later. That's going to be different than it is
with my daughter. So I guess I really encourage parents
to think about their family needs. One, why did your
family need kids to have access to devices? And there's
some really good answers stuff by the way, like maybe
my kids come home alone in the afternoon because I'm working.
So look at your family's needs and answer that why
(25:51):
do they need it? Not?
Speaker 5 (25:53):
And by the way, I am.
Speaker 4 (25:54):
Really against the well they need it because everyone else
has it thing they don't. I promise, I promise there
are ways around it. I promise there are ways to
socialize without it.
Speaker 5 (26:04):
So what are our family needs? Number one? And number two?
Speaker 4 (26:06):
The individuals who are being given these privileges, whether it's
devices or social media, and their individual needs as well.
So I guess I really implore parents to think about
why and why for each member of their household. You know,
their alternatives too, right, My daughter had a gizmo watch
so I could still be in touch with her and
(26:27):
she could be in touch with me. And not saying
your child has to be like an outcast not have
any former communication, but like, do we have to give
them a fully accessible outlet to the world in the
palm of their hands any earlier than necessary. I alreadue,
you know, but I'll say this one final thing. I've
never met a parent that gave their child the device
at any age and said I did that right. That
(26:48):
was the exact right, like all parents are, like I
wish I had waited, I wish i'd and I still
wish I could have waited. So I yeah, really really
taking that into consideration is important, and I think definitely
having a backbone as a parent being like it.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
Sucks, I get it, trust me. My daughter cried to
me all the time.
Speaker 4 (27:04):
She made a really beautiful PowerPoint about why she should
have her own device many Christmases in a row, and
it sucks and I'm the worst mom and I don't
get it and all these things. I had to weigh
out the pros and the cons for my family and
for her. And that's kind of where we landed, which
may be different than where other people land and that's okay,
think about it and think about it like long and hard.
Speaker 5 (27:24):
For sure.
Speaker 1 (27:29):
Let's stop here for another break. We'll be back in
a moment. We then moved on to one of the
(27:54):
most common danger zones online gaming. I asked, Katie, what's
your family do when kids are playing with strangers or
frighteningly when someone contacts them who shouldn't.
Speaker 4 (28:08):
Well, first, I like to be preventative about this. It
is amazing to me how many people just don't know
that's how games work. The fact that parents don't know
that kids can play against other people, I think is important,
and the fact that they can play against complete random strangers.
That's how these things are set up. So I think
first and foremost prevention is really important. So for adults
(28:30):
to in caregivers to say know this and be also
use some settings in these games around these consoles so
that kids aren't just randomly talking to complete random strangers.
Every single game that exists out there has these settings
that you can utilize either within the game or in
the consoles themselves, so that kids can still play these games,
but they're not playing against people in who'z Bekistan half
(28:53):
the Night on Minecraft or Fortnite or Call of Duty
or whatever it may be.
Speaker 5 (28:58):
So I think that is a really really big thing.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Is that something you would suggest people chat GBT to
figure out how to prevent.
Speaker 5 (29:07):
So the good news is that there's a whole bunch
of ways, and there's a whole bunch of settings in
every game, So I would just say.
Speaker 4 (29:13):
My son is playing Call of Duty on his switch,
he's eight years old or he's eighteen years old.
Speaker 5 (29:21):
How do I make this safe?
Speaker 4 (29:23):
What are some settings that I can use to make
sure he's not talking to strangers? To make sure those
locations not being shared? And can you walk me through
how to do that?
Speaker 2 (29:31):
The location sharing?
Speaker 4 (29:32):
That location sharing is on freaking everything right now, and
most of it is opt out, which I hate, meaning
that most of it is automatically on and you have
to go in and turn it off. In social networking,
it's just really disturbing. But I'll also make another point,
especially with middle school and high school students, it's kind
of like a status thing to share that in high school,
(29:54):
in middle school, even in college sometimes it is a
staddust thing, like we're besties. I trust you, you trust me,
like you know that I'm going to Sephora right now
or that I'm just hanging out at my house. But
it also causes so much drama. And it's also so
when we talk about healthy relationships, that is not healthy.
Speaker 5 (30:11):
That is not healthy.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Maybe it's healthy as a mom that I know where
my kid goes, but it's not healthy that my friends know,
unless it's a safety issue. I guess just in general,
that our friends know where we are, or our boyfriends
or partners or girlfriends know we are every second of
the day.
Speaker 5 (30:25):
I don't know.
Speaker 4 (30:26):
I think that that is weird personally, and I think
it can be dangerous. Also today, if I know that
you're checking in at a concert or whatever, you're at
your baseball game, have a blast. I'm coming to rob
your goddamn house also because I know that you're not home, so,
like you know what I mean. Hopefully normal people aren't
programmed to think, oh, I'm just sharing them I'm having
(30:47):
a really great lunch with my friend, that someone's going
to go rob my house or someone's going to track
my movements.
Speaker 5 (30:52):
But your listeners no more than anyone else.
Speaker 4 (30:54):
There's weird goddamn people out there that maybe don't think
like we do. So if we can be better about
that stuff, by the way, spill that information to our
kids too.
Speaker 5 (31:02):
Why it might not be a good idea to do
something like that.
Speaker 1 (31:05):
Do you talk about Internet addiction and what to do
with that, because that seems endemic.
Speaker 5 (31:11):
Do you have like six hours?
Speaker 4 (31:12):
I think the crux of this quite frankly, is something
I kind of touched upon earlier, which is.
Speaker 5 (31:17):
It was not our fault to begin with.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
I should say maybe it's our fault going forward now
that we know what we know, And what I mean
by that is, like this stuff when it came out
to us, we didn't think to ask any questions about
what does this mean?
Speaker 5 (31:27):
What does this do? How do these things operate? Now
that we know better and we.
Speaker 4 (31:31):
Have undisputable brain scans and research and every day I
don't even know what stats to share anymore because they're
all just so overwhelming. I think we need to acknowledge
that this is a thing. It's a thing for adults,
not just kids. As we're like shaking our fingers at
kids these days being so bad with technology, we statistically
are worse than there. So we got to fix the problem.
(31:54):
Can we just ask ourselves? Can I be better about
my screen time today than I was yesterday? I don't
need you to ditch the phone all together, but like,
are there things that we can be better at every
single day? Because it's truly not just for our not
just because, but for our mental health. Right anxiety and
depression is through the roof and for our physical health,
for our relationships. Can we be better and put the
(32:16):
stuff down? Can we be better parents? Can we be
better workers? I know I sure as hell could be.
If I put.
Speaker 5 (32:22):
My phone on, do not deserve a little bit?
Speaker 4 (32:24):
I get a lot more shit done then I would,
as it's sit near buzzin' and ding in twenty five
times a minute, and then I get sidetracked and whatever
I think? Can we ask ourselves every day? Can we
be better at this tomorrow than we were today? And
maybe we can start to build better habits.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
With adults, it can be even trickier. I gave the
hypothetical of someone in their twenties who barely logs off
and is growing more isolated. I asked if there were
any tips on how to help when an adult is
being consumed by life online.
Speaker 4 (32:54):
I think one of the things that is a misconception
across the board, but certainly for adults too.
Speaker 5 (33:00):
We're not talking about no tech here. We're not talking
about throw that thing away you're addicted.
Speaker 4 (33:05):
I encourage people to think about is it's not just
about put your phone away, It's about look at the
other things that we can do to get the same
Dopamine hit but in a different way because again, like
we could talk about this for hours, there's this whole
dopamine cycle that we get and it's a physiological response
to using these devices, into notifications, into all of the things.
(33:28):
But we can get that physiological response from other things,
from going on for a walk, from playing games, from
talking to people, from exercising, from reading a book, from
all these other things.
Speaker 5 (33:40):
So can we introduce that.
Speaker 4 (33:42):
Can we say things not like you're addicted, can you
get off your phone.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
Get off your computer? Or weirdo, why you want.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
It as much?
Speaker 4 (33:47):
But can we say something like, hey, tonight at four o'clock,
we're gonna have a game night, or we're all gonna
go for a family walk together. So I'm not taking
my device, we're putting devices away. We're doing family game night,
and then we're having family dinner. We're doing a family
movie night tomorrow night. Which also we have research that
having a family movie night without devices is different than
us all sitting on our couches on devices. We're engaging,
(34:08):
we're snuggling, we're laughing at the movie together saying like
oh did you hear what he just said or whatever.
Speaker 5 (34:15):
That's a good form of engagement with screens.
Speaker 4 (34:17):
So I think replacing or suggesting other things can be
a really great way to prompt people that might be
really far down this path into other alternatives that make
your body and your mind feel just as good, but
just doing something different.
Speaker 1 (34:37):
For more information on the case and relevant photos, follow
us on Instagram at Kat Underscore Studios. In Cells is
produced by Stephanie Leideger, Gabriel Castillo, and me Courtney Armstrong.
Additional producing by Connor Powell and Caroline Miller, editing by
Jeff Ti, music by Vanicorse. Studios. In Cells is a
(35:01):
production of KAT Studios and iHeart Podcasts. For more podcasts
like this, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you listen to your favorite shows.
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