August 28, 2020 • 54 mins
Just a few weeks before the birth of her baby girl, Katy Perry talked with host Joe Levy about the long road to her new album, "Smile" (Capitol Records) — which was two years in the making, and chronicles of the ups and downs of her last three years. The California Gurl and "American Idol" judge opened up about the intensive, week-long therapy program that helped turn things around, and how she writes songs that embody what she calls a Phoenix from the ashes Scorpio archetype.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Inside the Studio presented by I Heart Radio.
I'm your host Joe Levy. So my guest this time
out is California girl pop princess and American Idol judge
Katie Perry. We talked about her new album Smile, about
(00:25):
how she got through the dark and difficult times that
followed the release of her last album, Witness, and also
about a project of hers that she'd been working on
with her fiancee, Orlando Bloom. Because I don't know if
you've heard, but Katy Perry just had a baby, little
girl named Daisy Dove. In fact, she was so very
(00:48):
much pregnant when we spoke that I was gonna say
she might have had the baby by the time I
finished this sentence, except then she actually did, and I
had to go back and re record this. And now
I've heard the pregnancy has been pretty easy, but in
later days it's been a little harder. What's What's What's up?
(01:08):
Katie Perry trains coming into the station, and no, I
mean only a couple of days. I'm like, I have
to stop and lay down. I just gotta stop. Okay, Okay,
I don't want to get to biological but I think
technically the train is leaving the station. It's coming into
the station, though it depends on if like the canal
as the station. This is taking a strange turn, and
(01:30):
I'd like to keep going down this path. My understanding,
and I'm not a parent, is that the train enters
the station and nine months later it leaves. But wow,
I guess I need to study some biology. So a
couple of things about Katie Perry. Her given name is
Katherine Elizabeth Hudson. Perry is her mother's maiden name. She
(01:52):
grew up the middle child of two Pentecostal pastor parents
in Santa Barbara, California, and she wasn't allowed to do
some normal kids stuff like eat lucky charms. I don't know,
maybe because lepre cons are pagan. Also, she couldn't watch
the Smurfs, who I guess are also pagan, although now
I really want some smurfberries or marshmallow green clovers. Anyway,
(02:16):
despite her strict religious upbringing, her right maybe because of it,
Catherine would grow up into Katie. She started out as
a more rock leaning Atlantis Morris set sort of singer songwriter,
but she developed herself into a pop sensation who played
around with vintage Hollywood pin up girl and burlesque imagery,
(02:37):
and she sang about kissing girls or having love affairs
that made you perpetually feel like a teenager checking into
a motel for the first time, or she sang about
wanting to see your peacock or whatever it is you're
hiding underneath. She also eventually became the voice of Smurfet
into Smurfs Movies in two thousand eleven, and I assume
(02:59):
at this point she's allowed to eat all the lucky
charms that she wants. Perry's first album, One of the Boys,
arrived in June of two thousand and eight, which was
a real changing of the guard moment in popular music.
Lady Gaga released her debut a few months later in October,
and in November, Taylor Swift's second album, Fearless, debuted at
(03:21):
number one on the Billboard two hundred. Also, you may
have heard of a British singer who released her debut
album in January of two thousand and eight. She's named
a Dell. All of these women would have boundary reshaping,
record setting success. The offsided stat about Katie Perry is
that her second release Teenage Dream in would become only
(03:45):
the second album in history after Michael Jackson's Bad to
produce five number one singles California Girls, Teenage Dream, Firework Et,
and Last Friday Night. There's a sixth single, the One
That Got Away, and it missed it by that much,
peaking at number three, but then in a deluxe edition
of the album added more tracks, including Part of Me,
(04:07):
which also went to number one and which, like the
other songs I mentioned, sold more than two million digital
downloads in the US, which gave her another record for
the most multi platinum singles for one album. It's a
total of eight tracks selling more than two million apiece,
which is at least sixteen million song downloads, which is
(04:29):
a whole hell of a lot. And that kind of success,
I mean, it's a cliche, but it's hard to follow.
People are always measuring you against the mountain that you
climbed and not necessarily paying attention to what you're actually
accomplishing or giving them. I mean, her next album, Prison
had a mirror two number one singles Roar and dark Horse,
(04:50):
but it was the album after that where trouble really
began for her. So the first single from that album
Witness in twenty seventeen was called Chain to the Rhythm,
and it was trying to make some sense of let's
call it a post truth America where people are drowning
in social media distortions, and this is a song we
(05:11):
talked about how we're all living in our own bubble bubble,
not seeing the trouble trouble. And even as someone who
thinks that pop songs can be really serious things, I
found it strange that Chained to the Rhythm talked about
how our favorite songs themselves are a distraction that keep
us stumbling around like zombies. I mean, this was like
(05:34):
a critique of pop music that was calling from inside
the house, and I found it pretty fascinating. It did
go to number one, after all, but let's just say
that the trying to make sense of stuff, Katy Perry
was not really the Katy Perry that people seem to want.
The album got some pretty terrible reviews. A lot of
critics reacted like they just had enough of her, and
(05:56):
as she told me, she had tough times coping with
things after the release of Witness, certainly the split she
went through with Orlando Bloom in seventeen didn't help any
and Smile is an album all about this, about coping
with it and getting over it, dealing with it. As
(06:17):
you can tell from the first track, which is called
never Really Over, which her relationship with Orlando Bloom was
not as it turned out, the whole idea of Smile
is Katie getting her smile back. But the interesting thing
is that she doesn't leave out the work or the
tears it took to do it. Katie told me all
about the intensive, week long therapy process that she went
(06:38):
through at a point when, as she put it, she
didn't feel confident she would live to see the next year.
And she talked about learning to lean less on the
validation of the outside world. She talked about in a
lot of ways, becoming a more whole person. Here's what
else she had to say. Heyy Perry, welcome to inside
(07:09):
the studio. Hello Joe, how are you? Isn't that a
loaded question? Is a loaded question? Yes it is, you've
been You've been quarantining for two This is unique. Yes,
I think it's probably more it's a loaded question for everyone.
But um, I definitely say as I'm about to give
(07:32):
birth to two different things, both an actual physical human
being and a record that I have been doing all
of my promotion in you know, quarantine, and this time
it's an interesting time, sure, and and and you know
a lot of women and more power to them work
(07:54):
into their third trimester. I really hope we get this
interview done before your water breaks. Yeah, well I'm to
my third trimester. I'm in my fourth trimester. I'm just kidding, No,
I really you know, I think you are the last
one of the last people I get to speak with
before my world changes. So originally this album was at
(08:16):
one point it was going to arrive in June and
then in mid August, and it's it's been pushed back
a little bit. But but also you must have discussed
releasing it next year. Why why did you stick with
this year? What was the thinking behind that? Yeah, I
mean this year is a year of pivoting and going
with the flow for sure, um And anyone that like
(08:36):
makes hard plans besides the fact that possibly you will
have a child for me, um is you know, is
maybe setting themselves up for a surprise. Uh So I
wanted to put the record out in June, obviously, I
wanted to give myself a little bit more space and
(08:57):
not you know, go head to head with who's coming
for who's the headliner, who's the opener? Is it the child?
Is that the baby? What? Um? But I did know
that I was so excited about sharing this record that
actually got me to this place um of life, of
fullness of life, UM, that I didn't want to push
(09:19):
it to twenty one because I just know my energy
is about to shift UM and my world is about
to expand in in such an incredible way that, like
I wrote, I started kind of casually writing this record
in two thousand and seventeen, and it's really the sound shot.
I call it like the screen shot, but the sound
(09:41):
shot of the past three years. And I know my
next couple of years are going to be so full
and I will have so much to say, so let's
just onto the next. Plus it's a record full of
you know, hopefulness and resilience and about coming out of
the darkness. So I think if anyone is going through
that now, it could be it could be something for them.
(10:05):
I mean, I think in a way, we're all going
through that now, to one its stand or another. It's
it's it's hard to not be in the darkness at
this particular time in human history, given given the pandemic.
But you talk about coming out of the darkness. There
there's a note in the packaging for Smile and it's
it's actually signed Katherine, not Katie, and you you say,
(10:26):
many of these songs were written coming out of one
of my own darkest times, finding and fighting for the
light at the end of the tunnel. And so I
want to talk about Smile, you finding your smile again.
But let's start with the dark times, because that's kind
of where the album begins, isn't it. The first few
(10:46):
tracks on the record. Yeah, let's let's travel back to us.
So I guess travel back a few years to or
so oren. But but that's kind of where the album
begins with never really over cry about it later to
realize these are these are the darker times, right, Well,
you know, actually you're you're you're making a very observant note.
(11:08):
The sequence does tell a many story, um, and it
does start out with kind of the letting go, the
true letting go or or making a decision to let
go of this loop of love that I was in,
you know, the unhealthy relationships and going like I am
(11:29):
not going to fall back into that loop. I am
going to choose a different path, even though it's difficult. Um.
But the you know, there was it was a few
things in two thousand and seventeen. It was, um just
a shift in my own uh excitement and getting high
(11:53):
on my own supply with putting out music. It just
didn't really, it didn't. It didn't slap like it used
to UM. And I right before I put out the record,
I actually broke up with my now baby daddy because
I was just like, you know, I got to a
tipping point and I thought I was going to lean
(12:16):
on the validation of the outside world to get me
through you know, the bummer time of breaking up with someone.
But then, you know, then I wasn't getting fed from
the outside world like I was used to. So everything
started falling apart. Basically, the foundation started cracking. And I
didn't realize that I put so much um uh self
(12:40):
worth and validation and everyone else's hands, and when they
don't give it back to you, it's a huge void. Um.
So we're talking about when when Witness came out, that's
that's the moment when we're it's you know, as a
Katy Perry fan, as somebody who, hey, that's not my
favorite Katie Perry record, but I like a lot of
(13:01):
songs on it. It's a Katie Perry record. But the
world seemed to say, like, you know what, maybe we've
had enough, maybe we want to take a break. Am
I am I exaggerating? No, you are not at all.
You are so right. And I felt that, and I
am a you know, I'm a master of feelings. That's
my job is to um observe and feel the feelings
(13:23):
and you know, put them into little definitions and ideas
and songs. I take feelings and I create worlds. So
I was feeling that rejection pretty heavily. Um and you
know I did. I did what a lot of artists
do at some point in their careers, is I took
(13:45):
a leap because I wanted to experiment. I wanted to
break them kind of box that I had created for
myself of being maybe a little too Sachard or too pop.
I wanted to really sonically investigate the dimensions out there.
And I did. And so Witness was really my kind
(14:07):
of like a little bit, a little bit not too much.
It wasn't like I was like going cuckoo for cocoa puffs,
you know, experimentally. Um. But I was definitely trying on
new things and I loved it. Um. I was just
trying to like kind of shake an old version of
myself and evolve and I didn't really know how to
(14:29):
do it, but this was my way of doing it artistically. Um.
And so yeah, it was um. It was a It
was a shift, and it wasn't like the biggest shift,
like I still had a number one record, I still
had success with change of the rhythm. Bona petite is
a huge you know, there's you know, if you look
at it from a numbers world or a business world,
(14:50):
it's not like as much as maybe I am I
I made it out to be, or as much as
I felt it. But remember I was only on a
roller coaster going up for ten years, like hot hot, hot,
hot fire, and any one small little shift was was
like it was like the first time, you know, you
feel an earthquake, You're like, what the hell is that?
(15:11):
I'm getting my coffee? Okay, all right, I'm glad, I'm
is it decalf Katie? Are you allowed to have caffeinated coffee?
I am? Thank you for your concern and also she
is cooked. Okay. She literally has a hand coming out
right now waving to you. I'm good. You were saying, oh,
(15:38):
you know, like, I'm not going to compare myself to
Bob Dylan, but when Bob Dylan did his electric record,
people were like boom, or when what's his name did
his eighties record? Um, I'm totally pregnancy brain. That's why
I grabbed my coffee. It's totally fine. But you know what,
there are moments where people don't even have to try
(15:59):
different things to get negative feedback. Like I think back
to being a Madonna fan, Erotica comes out from from
my perspective, her most consistent record from beginning to end,
the world was like, yeah, I don't want this, We
don't want this right now? Or Lady Gaga with art pop.
The world suddenly seemed to discover all at once that
(16:21):
she's kind of pretentious, and I was like, didn't we
know that from the start, and that one of the
reasons we enjoy her? Yeah, Like didn't we didn't? We
love the the attitude, right wow, I love that, you
know what it's and and it makes me feel like
I'm you know, I'm on the right path, and it's
really about peaks and valleys and writing it. Especially when
(16:44):
I hear about you know, someone like yourself. You're a
couple of years older than I am, but you've been
a music fan and you saw Erotica, You've seen Madonna
go through all those evolutions, and she's someone I really
look up to for a couple of pillars. She has
fought against agism, she has fought against sexism, she has
fought against stereotypes. Like everyone wanted to put her in
(17:08):
a box and she has broken. She's blown that box
up every single time. And like whatever you think about
her now, great, but like she laid the foundation, meaning
like you know, she's still evolving and still changing. And
I went and saw her last show, and if I'm
doing that at her age, I would be so lucky.
(17:30):
Like yeah, I don't. I don't think I will be
uh moving aerobically for that long a period. Uh that's
the minutes of an exercise class, is what I can
get through. Not an entire Madonna production. I mean it was,
and it was really it was like it was innovative
and interesting and it wasn't phoned in. But like thinking back,
(17:53):
you know what you know of course, like I hear
about um just you know, like people talking about there's
always something shiny and new every year, right, and it's
different when you be when you're not the shiny new thing,
and it does something to your psychology. But it's it's
it's actually it's like a good test of your character
(18:16):
and a good test of who you are as an
artist and what you're made of. And I just think back,
like some of my favorite albums that I was aware
of because I was, you know, a little bit younger,
but Ray of Light, right after she had her baby,
you know, changed my life. Confessions on a dance floor.
She's in her forties, I think, you know, like, so
(18:39):
I look at that, I go, wow, I'm excited for
the future. Yeah. But but you were also talking about
seeking validation from outside and and that moment when Witness
came out was a moment. You may have had the numbers,
you may have had the hits, but it was a
moment where what was coming back. And I don't know
how much you read criticism, but what was coming back
(19:01):
would be a little mean, a little pointed. And I
don't know how active you are on social media. Many
of us follow you. I don't know how much you
follow the rest of us. But did that stuff coming back,
did it get you down? Yeah? I mean I don't
have Google alerts on myself. Um, and I do wish that, like,
you know, I could be just you know, you just
(19:23):
put it out in the world and go there. It
is goodbye. And I do know I like and I
maybe say it out loud because I'm still telling myself
I have no control once I put it out, it
is up to the consumer. It is up to the
audience to do with it as they please. This is
just my story, this is my experience, this is my touchdone.
(19:45):
It's actually a real touchdone of a record. For me,
smile is to remind myself that I walked through the
hell and I survived it. But when Witness came out,
or when any record comes out, you are more aware
because just there's so much going on and so you
will see stuff and you will hear stuff. But it
(20:05):
was definitely like every artist goes through a bit of
a leveling period, and it was definitely the leveling period.
And I really believe that, you know, more than half
of the reason I'm here is because of people, and
they do have the power and they put me on
the pedestal, and they, you know, every once in a
(20:28):
while need to remind whoever they put on the pedestal
that they put them there and smile. You talk about
being served a piece of humble pie. Rejection can be
God's protection. That's a lyric that popped out at me.
Daisy's got um. It seems like a reference to this
is well, took those sticks and stones showed them I
(20:49):
could build a house. Right, I mean, this is this
is you're you're you're talking about turning around the negativity
into something useful for yourself. Well, I mean this might
stunt a little bit, like you know, spiritual hippie dippy,
but my brokenness became my wholeness because it was like,
(21:09):
you know, I'm a scorpio. So I definitely resonate with
the continual story of the phoenix rising from the ashes
or the flower growing through the concrete. Like Resilient says
on the record, Um, I I learned my best lessons
from hitting the bottom sometimes or falling flat on my face.
(21:32):
But um, yeah, I think when I say rejection is
God protect God's protection or um took those six and
stones and showed him I could build a house. I
I built a new foundation and a version of me,
not a version of me. I nurtured myself to be
a multidimensional human rather than just a single minded you know,
(21:58):
um one goal, which is to become the best pop
star ever and ring that bell and have the biggest
success tour, you know, number one, blah blah blah. Now
like now I know how to be still. Now I
know that, Like I'm going to have a baby and
be a mother. Now I know how to say no,
(22:18):
and now I know how to have like pause. I
I was on a rocket ship and holding on for
dear life and kind of foaming at the mouth, and
it just feels a lot more grounded and expansive because
I kind of got out of that loop of one
(22:39):
single idea of one goal, you know. Yeah, I mean
I think I'll look back and be like thanks God
for otherwise. I feel like, you know, you read these
stories sometimes about your favorite entertainers not having the best ending,
and I want to be a grandma. Okay, all right,
(23:00):
that's putting a little pressure on the baby that hasn't
been born yet. But we've we've she's she's got some
time to catch up to your desire for grandchildren. What
I'm saying, So let's talk about how some of this
(23:25):
building the multidimensional Katie or Catherine happens. Um. You know, Uh,
you talked a little bit. I think it was about this,
and I was interested by this, so I looked it up.
This intensive therapy project that the Hoffman Process, um and
and I've read a little about it. You said it
(23:47):
was a reset for you. I know it was started
in the sixties by guy named Bob Hoffman. That it's
a week long therapy retreat and it's centered around letting
go of negative behaviors. What can you tell me about
It's like ten years of therapy in one week. It's
like concentrated juice. I'm done for that. Uh not because
I want to take a shortcut, because I just like,
(24:08):
you know, I don't want to fight my demons for
ten years. UM. So you know, it's a There's a
lot of different things out there, but this process definitely
put me on a new path. And actually my friends
had gone before me, Orlando had gone before me. Um
(24:31):
and I ended up going because I was like, Wow,
I don't really have any more options. I either decide
to change myself or I may not live to see
the next year. Um, and so I did it. And
it's basically it's one of the main things that you
do is you rewire the way you think about yourself.
(24:54):
Which I don't know about you, but for me, I
have this like CNN News ticker of negat ativity that
was constantly going through my mind, you know, and just
like saying, you're fat, you're ugly, ugly, you're a loser,
you're you just got lucky, you're just you know, you're
not really invited, You'll never be enough, you'll never be enough,
(25:15):
You'll never be enough, blah blah blah blah blah blah.
And that was really loud, and um. There there's a
process there by way of you know, like different like
guided visualizations, different psychological exercise exercises, silence that you really
(25:37):
quiet it and it and and it still pops up,
you know, like the devil doesn't sleep. I always say that, like,
and the devil works harder. It's those are two sayings
I think that are hundreds of years old and still
ring true. Like, you know, everything in life is two things.
It's a yen a yang. You may not believe in
(25:58):
the devil, but there is a positive and a negative,
and you really have to do the work to stay
on the positive path. So yeah, I went there and
it changed my life and I've so far been able
to um, you know send I would say thirty forty
different people that are close to me, and it's changed
(26:19):
their lives and I could not recommend it more. And
it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. But it's a rebirth, um,
and it's you know, rebirths are not neat and tidy,
They're messy and bloody. Says the expectant mother. Uh, you
were an assistant dullah for your sister for her home birth.
(26:42):
Do I have this right? You've you've been through the
birthing process for his secondhand as it were. Yeah, I
mean I wasn't. I wouldn't label myself as a duela,
but um, I was there and I helped, and I
saw and I experienced and I've seen the miracle of
child birth and you know, so I M I haven't
(27:06):
felt it, but I won't won't be surprised by the
by the site and the idea of it. Um. I'm
happy to have that, you know, and not just have
only YouTube video references to go by. So in talking
about the happening process, you said two things I want
to circle back on because there you were saying a
(27:26):
lot there um and And the first is you said
you went there and you felt like you had to
go there, or you weren't sure you were going to
see the next year or the next day. My voice,
those voices were so loud, so and stop me if
I'm getting too personal. Does that mean you were thinking
I'm going to check out, I'm I'm I'm done, I'm
(27:47):
withdrawing from life, or I'm ending my life or what? What? What?
What were those voices saying? Yeah, I mean it was
just saying that like, oh, you know, it's getting too
hard to deal with the weight of the world old
or you know, I don't know how other people think
when they have these thoughts, if they ever have these thoughts,
and not a lot of people have them. Some people do.
(28:10):
Some people are listening right now and bobbing their hand
and go, yep, I know exactly what she's talking about. UM.
But you know, sometimes it's like, oh, I'll have the
last word. UM, you know I had I just had
a friend of a friend, unfortunately UM pass away by
taking her own life. And it was one of those
(28:34):
things that we I'm not very close to her, but
um and God rest her soul, but it was one
of those things where she was suffering. And some people
suffer so much and it's so hard, and they don't
know where to turn, and they don't have the tools,
and they're like almost just kind of stuck in that mindset.
They just have no idea how to think outside of
(28:57):
that mindset. And for me, I was there. I know,
I know, I know exactly that feeling. I know, like
anyone could you know, someone could be like, well just
think on the bright side, and you're like, fuck off.
You're like you don't understand where I'm at right now mentally,
(29:17):
like I can't get out of bed or what have you.
But um, it's the real deal, and um, you know,
it doesn't discriminate, like depression and anxiety and all those things.
It doesn't matter how much you have or how much
you don't have. Sometimes you see the person that doesn't
have anything and they're the happiest person in the world.
You're like, what I mean, this is not what we've
(29:39):
been sold. You know, I really want to express my
admiration and appreciation for you being so open about this,
and and I also want to emphasize that it's not
the first time you've been vulnerable in this way. When
I was preparing to do this interview, I went back
I watched the part of Me film UM and I
(30:00):
aw you at one of your lowest moments and thought,
this is a brave choice to show yourself. You're you're
in tears, you're you're dealing with the fallout of your
first marriage, you're deciding whether or not to get on stage,
and this is your movie. That was your choice to
show this in this movie. And I thought, this is
kind of amazing. Uh, this is this is brave. Is
(30:22):
either like show the real and feel like connected and
or or show some kind of cookie cutter propaganda like
we all do on Instagram. Like what if we had
an alt version of ourselves on Instagram where you just
took photos of yourself when you're in the worst, like
when you're crying, when you're upset, when you're stressed out,
(30:44):
that would be that would be a real serve, right,
I mean, we only take photos of ourselves when we're
trying to project perfectionism. And it's like tail as old
as time you see sometimes people have like the best
Instagram and then you meet them in real life and
you're like, oh my god, you're not the same person. Yeah,
(31:05):
I've seen that movie. We put up vacation pictures. We
don't put up our shitty day at work pictures. Yeah.
I mean, like Joe, even if you just like took
a photo of yourself off the shitty day at work
and you just captioned it shitty day at work with
like no like other angle, it would just be so
funny because it's so real, you know. It's like, yeah,
(31:27):
most seven out of ten days are kind of like this. Yeah,
they not seven, maybe five maybe, I don't know. That's
that's that's that's a pretty good average. Actually, out of
ten in the pandemic, maybe three to five in outside
of it. Okay, alright, alright, so, um, once we get
past the darkness and we get back into the Daisies
(31:51):
resilient not the end of the world, smile this moment
in the album where you're you're you're regaining some of
that power, some of that resilience, some of that smile
talk to me about about first, let's talk about that
point in your life. How did you reclaim that for
yourself and then let's talk about the music. Yeah, well,
I literally just had to kind of like push myself
(32:17):
at my body and put one foot in front of
the other, and like it's like when you when you
for me, I don't love exercising, but I just we
all just know that it's it feels so great afterwards,
and then you tell yourself afterwards, You're like why don't
I do this every day? You know? But putting on
the sports where it's like come on, you know, I mean,
(32:39):
like why, And so that's kind of what it was.
It was like moving with cement feet, but I could
still move little by little and the steps got bigger,
and um, you know, there were people that were helping
me obviously, Like Orlando never deserted me through this time.
He was always there. Definitely had boundaries, and but it
(33:03):
was always there kind of as a pillar and leading
by example, and he was conscious of where I was.
So he was there for me with you know, with
with some boundaries, which was great. And so you know,
it was good to have some friends and the my
my team that I've had with me for over fifteen years.
(33:27):
They were just like pushing me in the right direction.
They helped me create the space to you know, do
things like the Hoffman process. Um. But you know, I
do have this higher self inside of me just like
everyone else does, Like this higher consciousness, this better self
inside of me that sometimes just takes over and goes
(33:51):
all right, sweetie, looks like you can't put your pants
on one leg at a time anymore. I'm gonna take
over and I'm dragging you to words the end of
the tunnel. You know, there's like it's almost a bit
magical in that way, like I truly believe I'm a
soul wearing a costume or a meat sack. Um, And
(34:14):
sometimes my soul is the one that's like, no, sweetie,
we're gonna do it now on my terms. So a
little a little help from the ovens of sorts, okay, okay,
you know, and cry about it later. Teary eyes, those
are those are sort of tears on the dance floor,
like let's let's have a little fun. There's there's some
bad times, there's some tragedy, but let's have a little fun.
(34:36):
Was was that part of it for you too? Were you? Yeah?
There's I mean there's some necessary escapism, but you know,
you can't escape too much then, because then you find
yourself at that um. You know, that that um, that
Donkey Donkey, Disneyland and Pinocchio, where like you go there,
(34:57):
it's fun, you're gambling your drink in, you're having cigars,
you're with your friends, and then you turn into an ass.
So you have to get out before you turn into
an ass. And it's a fine line, and sometimes it
creeps up on you. You know, it's like right around
there and you're like, oh crap. I always referenced that
time in Pinocchio because it's so true. It's like, have
a little fun, but straddle the line, guys um, and
(35:22):
so cry about it later. Interior Eyes is definitely about,
you know, letting the letting go. It's the letting go
of the loop of love that I was in, you know.
It's the letting go of idealism. Is the letting go
of the idea I could change someone. You know, it's
the letting go of my twenties. It's the letting go
(35:47):
of fantasy. It's the letting go of you know, a
lot of different things. So I think there's like it's
like I'm gonna keep moving, but I'm I may be crying.
But that's okay, all right, here we go. Oh, we're
just gonna let go and we're gonna keep moving. That's
a lot to uh, that's a lot to let go.
That's a lot of ground to cover in just two songs, Katie, Uh,
(36:09):
well there's there. So there's a lot of other vibes.
That's true. That's true. Smile and Daisies or or both
songs about getting getting some strength back, taking some strength back,
letting your higher self, higher better self, take the wheel
as it were. Um, these are songs. We've been in
(36:31):
this territory before with your records. You know, you've given
us firework and roar and and so we're smiling Daisies.
Are these more personal songs this time? Or the Cousins? Yeah,
they're more t m I cousins, Well not Daisies. But Smile,
you know, is definitely kind of a real calendar journey
(36:58):
of like what I went through, Like it's very it's
very this is this is exactly how I would explain
it if it wasn't in a song, right, But Daisy
is a little bit you know, less personal maybe and
for everyone to kind of find themselves in it as well,
because I'm not the first person to have a dream
(37:20):
bigger than what everyone else says I should be dreaming.
You know, I'm not the first one to dream big
and then try and go for it um and be
laughed at all along the way. Um. So I think
there's a lot of people that really resonate and relate
to that that narrative. Like I said, I seem to
really embody my scorpio archetype. I know jack shit about astrology,
(37:46):
so you can tell me anything you want about that
scorpio archetype and I'll agree with it. All I know
is that the stars have been here for a long
time before me, and we'll be there way after me,
so they must hold some significant step. Sure, this is
something we may need to consult Neil to grasp Tyson for.
But yes, no, I think that there's there's probably some
(38:07):
significance in in the Stars. It's funny you mentioned Smile
as a almost like a timeline, and it's got that
(38:29):
Lionel Richie name check in it. How much was American idol?
I don't know a kind of safe place for you
or replaced it to get back some some sense of
strength and self because it's a different experience to do
that show than to go out on the road touring.
Is it a little healthier. Yeah, there's balance and that
(38:51):
you're not, you know, flying from Europe to Australia twice
a week, you know, I mean really it's it takes
its toll sometimes when your body feels upside down. Um,
the physical aspect of of touring is really intense. And
every time I'm finishing a tour, I get a tattoo
(39:13):
to kind of commemorate the intensity. And we all get
a tattoo. It's like a bloodshed moment. You mean, the
whole crew, everybody ever. Yeah, it's like I bring a
tattoo artist and it's like a bloodshed bonding moment. It's like, Wow,
we lived to tell and we're proud of it, you know,
and now we'll now we'll forever have kind of this
(39:34):
signature on ourselves that says that tells a story. But yeah,
it was a moment for me to Also I've always
wanted to do something like this American idol or you know,
something that involved music and talent and competition. But I've
always just been going hunter and fifty miles per hour.
(39:56):
And also I took it as an opportunity for the
American public to have better understanding of me as a
person and not just as what they you know, saw
what what I what? What what? Either I bite size,
hand fed or the media decided that they we're going
(40:19):
to make me out to be because the media can
make anyone out to be any type of character. Um.
And if you don't tell your story, someone's gonna tell
it for you, honey. And so I found it to
be uh, not only it was like three pronged. Of course,
it was a way for me to have balance at home.
(40:40):
It was a way for me to really kind of um,
have a bigger better relationship with with the public personally,
personality wise. And it truly was a show that was
actually changing lives. And I'm about that, you know, I'm
about people. I'm about heart, some about wholeness and happiness,
(41:02):
and like this show every season has a lottery ticket
for someone out there who's life will be changed and
maybe even in the top five or top ten, their
life will be changed and their fit and that means
their family's life will be changed. That means you know,
it's a ripple trickle down effect. Um. And so I
(41:23):
love this show more than any of the shows, because
you can name ten different successful artists and no other
show you can, you know, even even if it shares
this a little bit of the same format. And that's
that's as trash talking as I'll be. Okay, While the
gauntlet is thrown down, the American Idol Voice feud continues.
(41:47):
It's not a feud. I'm not trying to make it
out to be one. We don't have to complain about anything.
I know you've you know, you've been very public about
saying that you view the uh mending of fen is
between you and Taylor Swift is a lesson for young
women out there. Uh you know, I know you're not
going to talk trash. You can only lead by example, huh. Okay,
(42:12):
and sometimes you know, it's important to do that for
the greater good. Okay, it's important to do it for
you as well, right, I mean for the on the
personal level, of course, of course that's important. But you know,
you think about if you can, if you can zoom out,
you think about you know, all of it. I mean,
(42:32):
I guess we are people that some young people look
up to, and um, you know, I've never had a
problem with that in the beginning. I remember it was
so interesting into it was all about purity rings and
the Jonas brothers had purity rings and everybody wasn't having
sex before marriage, and you know there's this like real
(42:53):
like traditionalism, and you know there there is all of
the questions that were being asked of me and my
two and three years is about being a role model.
And it was kind of like I didn't I didn't
want to. I didn't want to say yes, because, uh,
does a being a role model mean I have to
(43:15):
be perfect and I can never make a mistake. It
felt like that's what the setup was, right because I
knew I was just I knew I was going to
make mistakes, especially from where I come from. You know,
I was born in like a single frame of mind.
And um, so so you mean that you you you
came from a sort of evangelist Christian perspective where a
(43:38):
certain kind of I mean, being a role model was
literally expected, right, I mean it's very clear. Yeah, yeah,
I mean I'm I'm a pastor's daughter. So like I
understood what it means, what it meant to sit in
the front role and not fidget and like you know,
and to be attentive and aware and blah blah blah,
(44:00):
take notes and like lead by example. But I was
never that way, and um, I always I always knew
I was just like well all a lot of my
education started when I had the opportunity to travel like expansively,
when I was twenty three, when things started all happening.
So most of my peeling off of ignorance and lack
(44:24):
of education has just happened under the spotlight, you know.
That's that's why I don't always get it right, because
I'm learning through the process. Certainly, I remember this time
when that first record came out. But it's so funny
that that people are gonna come to you and ask
you about being a role model, because coloring outside the
(44:46):
lines was one of the great things about you at
the start, that you you were in a cookie cutter
pop star, that you you were you were different, right,
I mean you you know, you had you had you
had a sense of humor, You might curse, you might
kiss a girl. We didn't know what was gonna happen.
Can you believe you know? I wrote a song about
(45:07):
you know, bisexuality back in two thousand and eight, and
it was so taboo wow. Um. I also like to
remind people that this is the business of rock and roll.
Pre Internet, everyone was like having sex with everyone and
doing copious amounts of drugs. So where was I? Okay,
(45:29):
all right, Joe, you remember the time well, as the
old Grace Slick saying goes, if you can remember them,
you weren't there, that's amazing. But I barely can't remember twenties.
(45:52):
So there we go. We had fun. Though. One last
thing about the whole idea of the smile. Um, you know,
the whole idea of smiling. It comes up in another song.
Not the end of the world you're talking about. Take
that frown, turn it upside down, right. Its flipping things around.
(46:13):
There's a reference to the old song uh Nana Hey,
kiss him goodbye, but you're saying, don't say goodbye. So
it's really about flipping things around. And it's like duality again.
It's like it's to two choices. Like this free will
thing that we have that people talk about. You have
a choice to do this or a choice to do that.
(46:34):
Every choice has an outcome. Um. Every you know, thought
can be either negative or positive. Um. And you can
either see an ending as a beginning or you can
see an ending as a as a doom doom, doom
doom moment. But I believe that everything is cyclical and
that the ending is so close to the beginning, just
(46:55):
like the hate is so close to the love you
can almost reach out and touch it. But you know,
in what sense? Can the smile or is the smile
sometimes a mask? You know, we see you on the
cover of the album. You're made up as a clown.
You're you're You're not You're the sad clown, maybe not
the happy clown. Melancholy melancholy a more sophisticated word, I
(47:17):
stand corrected, Well, it is. It is playing off of
that kind of simple narrative, the narrative of the clown
who lust its smile or a sense of playfulness. Um,
but I guess the I guess the album. The music
actually is a lot more upbeat and you know, um
(47:38):
energetic than the art is on the cover. I think
maybe what I'm trying to say, or as I figured
it out up until now, is that like through that
art is that I found my smile. But wow, I'm
not gonna be ignorant to think that, like, you know,
(48:01):
everything is hunky dorrier Peachie Keen jelly Bean for the
rest of my life, like I will never not have problems,
or like, for instance, if I could amend the saying
what doesn't kill you makes you stronger too, what doesn't
kill you makes you stronger, but sometimes you lose a limb,
(48:21):
you know, or sometimes you stay in bed for a while,
then I would because it's not always as black and
white as what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's like,
holy hell, that was intense. So I want to ask
you about the last track on the record, What Makes
a Woman, where you sing about feeling it your most beautiful,
(48:44):
doing whatever the funk you want. Um So, when I
first heard of this song, I thought about the acoustic
album that you've threatened to make in the past. You know,
you've talked about this a couple of times, right, and
playing acoustic guitar is is one of the places where
things really started for you with music. Um So, talk
to me a little bit about this song, which you've
said is has a real particular importance to you. Yes,
(49:08):
I mean many people that sequence the record or artists,
they are always mindful of the first and the last song.
The first song sets the town and that's what I
wanted to do with this one with never really over.
It's familiar, you sing along, you're already in. You get
a good feeling from it because of maybe the nostalgia
(49:30):
of not COVID two thousand nine, right, a different time, right.
And then it ends with what makes a woman? Because
it's really the I guess it's um, the song that
I really resonate with the most, even right now, even
even though I I didn't write it when I had
(49:52):
a child in me. UM. But it is almost a
trick question, um, because if you can answer what makes
a woman, then maybe you are not a woman or
you have yet to live your whole life as a woman.
In that there's so much expansiveness. UM. I always and
(50:16):
I have fought against this narrative that women are just
one thing or can do just one thing. And it's
really interesting, you know, I do these interviews and sometimes
I will get people that you can tell are still
they still think in a certain type of way, and
they go Also, once you know you have the baby,
you're going to go away for a while and you know,
(50:38):
be a mom, and that's it, and just why don't
you just go away and I'm like, um, I'm sorry.
You know, Beyonce has twins and another daughter and she's
you know, doing what she loves. And there's many people
that are working moms and do what they love. And
are you basically telling me to forfeit or that I
(51:00):
have to choose or that I won't I wouldn't be
What I hear is that, like, I wouldn't be enough
if I was doing both. You know what I'm saying,
I wouldn't be doing it right. I guess that's what
I hear. And what I think is like, actually, I
feel like we were given this incredible opportunity to create
(51:21):
life because we have more than enough. We have. Yeah,
we are women, are you know, we get a little
bit stereotyped that we're incredibly emotional figures. That's because we
can create multiple humans with multiple sets of emotions. Like
it's all in there, honey, we are born with those eggs.
We got it right. So it's also a song about
(51:45):
the effortlessness that you know, we balance life with as women,
and sometimes we decide to do it all in one
day and go out in a pair of heels just
to show off, like that we can't, you know, like
There's a lot of layers and UM, it's just my
(52:07):
it is my um constant way of you know, trying
to um, I guess, fight for the right to be
anything I want to be or try anything I want
to try and be that chameleon that I know I
am and not be put in a box. You brought
(52:29):
up this sort of the expectations of what happens next.
Maybe you're gonna take a break, maybe you're But so
let me ask you what what happens next? Katie? What? What? What? What? What?
What's the future? Hold? Whatever I want? Honestly, I'll do
it as it comes. If you know, if I I
(52:51):
feel like I can balance beautifully, I will. If I
feel like I can't, I won't. I will obviously, you know,
put my vulnerable young soon to be born child first. UM.
And you know, I'm I don't think I'm going to
(53:12):
have a plan necessarily. Planning is future. I just I
think it's one of those moments where it's like just
be present, sure, change some diapers and see what happens
exactly all right, Katie Perry, thank you so much for
being here. Thank you Joe, thanks for this. I appreciate you.
(53:41):
Inside the Studio is a production of I heart Radio.
For more podcasts from my heart Radio, check out the
i heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, When, wherever you get
your podcasts. TI
Welcome to Inside the Studio presented by I Heart Radio.
I'm your host Joe Levy. So my guest this time
out is California girl pop princess and American Idol judge
Katie Perry. We talked about her new album Smile, about
(00:25):
how she got through the dark and difficult times that
followed the release of her last album, Witness, and also
about a project of hers that she'd been working on
with her fiancee, Orlando Bloom. Because I don't know if
you've heard, but Katy Perry just had a baby, little
girl named Daisy Dove. In fact, she was so very
(00:48):
much pregnant when we spoke that I was gonna say
she might have had the baby by the time I
finished this sentence, except then she actually did, and I
had to go back and re record this. And now
I've heard the pregnancy has been pretty easy, but in
later days it's been a little harder. What's What's What's up?
(01:08):
Katie Perry trains coming into the station, and no, I
mean only a couple of days. I'm like, I have
to stop and lay down. I just gotta stop. Okay, Okay,
I don't want to get to biological but I think
technically the train is leaving the station. It's coming into
the station, though it depends on if like the canal
as the station. This is taking a strange turn, and
(01:30):
I'd like to keep going down this path. My understanding,
and I'm not a parent, is that the train enters
the station and nine months later it leaves. But wow,
I guess I need to study some biology. So a
couple of things about Katie Perry. Her given name is
Katherine Elizabeth Hudson. Perry is her mother's maiden name. She
(01:52):
grew up the middle child of two Pentecostal pastor parents
in Santa Barbara, California, and she wasn't allowed to do
some normal kids stuff like eat lucky charms. I don't know,
maybe because lepre cons are pagan. Also, she couldn't watch
the Smurfs, who I guess are also pagan, although now
I really want some smurfberries or marshmallow green clovers. Anyway,
(02:16):
despite her strict religious upbringing, her right maybe because of it,
Catherine would grow up into Katie. She started out as
a more rock leaning Atlantis Morris set sort of singer songwriter,
but she developed herself into a pop sensation who played
around with vintage Hollywood pin up girl and burlesque imagery,
(02:37):
and she sang about kissing girls or having love affairs
that made you perpetually feel like a teenager checking into
a motel for the first time, or she sang about
wanting to see your peacock or whatever it is you're
hiding underneath. She also eventually became the voice of Smurfet
into Smurfs Movies in two thousand eleven, and I assume
(02:59):
at this point she's allowed to eat all the lucky
charms that she wants. Perry's first album, One of the Boys,
arrived in June of two thousand and eight, which was
a real changing of the guard moment in popular music.
Lady Gaga released her debut a few months later in October,
and in November, Taylor Swift's second album, Fearless, debuted at
(03:21):
number one on the Billboard two hundred. Also, you may
have heard of a British singer who released her debut
album in January of two thousand and eight. She's named
a Dell. All of these women would have boundary reshaping,
record setting success. The offsided stat about Katie Perry is
that her second release Teenage Dream in would become only
(03:45):
the second album in history after Michael Jackson's Bad to
produce five number one singles California Girls, Teenage Dream, Firework Et,
and Last Friday Night. There's a sixth single, the One
That Got Away, and it missed it by that much,
peaking at number three, but then in a deluxe edition
of the album added more tracks, including Part of Me,
(04:07):
which also went to number one and which, like the
other songs I mentioned, sold more than two million digital
downloads in the US, which gave her another record for
the most multi platinum singles for one album. It's a
total of eight tracks selling more than two million apiece,
which is at least sixteen million song downloads, which is
(04:29):
a whole hell of a lot. And that kind of success,
I mean, it's a cliche, but it's hard to follow.
People are always measuring you against the mountain that you
climbed and not necessarily paying attention to what you're actually
accomplishing or giving them. I mean, her next album, Prison
had a mirror two number one singles Roar and dark Horse,
(04:50):
but it was the album after that where trouble really
began for her. So the first single from that album
Witness in twenty seventeen was called Chain to the Rhythm,
and it was trying to make some sense of let's
call it a post truth America where people are drowning
in social media distortions, and this is a song we
(05:11):
talked about how we're all living in our own bubble bubble,
not seeing the trouble trouble. And even as someone who
thinks that pop songs can be really serious things, I
found it strange that Chained to the Rhythm talked about
how our favorite songs themselves are a distraction that keep
us stumbling around like zombies. I mean, this was like
(05:34):
a critique of pop music that was calling from inside
the house, and I found it pretty fascinating. It did
go to number one, after all, but let's just say
that the trying to make sense of stuff, Katy Perry
was not really the Katy Perry that people seem to want.
The album got some pretty terrible reviews. A lot of
critics reacted like they just had enough of her, and
(05:56):
as she told me, she had tough times coping with
things after the release of Witness, certainly the split she
went through with Orlando Bloom in seventeen didn't help any
and Smile is an album all about this, about coping
with it and getting over it, dealing with it. As
(06:17):
you can tell from the first track, which is called
never Really Over, which her relationship with Orlando Bloom was
not as it turned out, the whole idea of Smile
is Katie getting her smile back. But the interesting thing
is that she doesn't leave out the work or the
tears it took to do it. Katie told me all
about the intensive, week long therapy process that she went
(06:38):
through at a point when, as she put it, she
didn't feel confident she would live to see the next year.
And she talked about learning to lean less on the
validation of the outside world. She talked about in a
lot of ways, becoming a more whole person. Here's what
else she had to say. Heyy Perry, welcome to inside
(07:09):
the studio. Hello Joe, how are you? Isn't that a
loaded question? Is a loaded question? Yes it is, you've
been You've been quarantining for two This is unique. Yes,
I think it's probably more it's a loaded question for everyone.
But um, I definitely say as I'm about to give
(07:32):
birth to two different things, both an actual physical human
being and a record that I have been doing all
of my promotion in you know, quarantine, and this time
it's an interesting time, sure, and and and you know
a lot of women and more power to them work
(07:54):
into their third trimester. I really hope we get this
interview done before your water breaks. Yeah, well I'm to
my third trimester. I'm in my fourth trimester. I'm just kidding, No,
I really you know, I think you are the last
one of the last people I get to speak with
before my world changes. So originally this album was at
(08:16):
one point it was going to arrive in June and
then in mid August, and it's it's been pushed back
a little bit. But but also you must have discussed
releasing it next year. Why why did you stick with
this year? What was the thinking behind that? Yeah, I
mean this year is a year of pivoting and going
with the flow for sure, um And anyone that like
(08:36):
makes hard plans besides the fact that possibly you will
have a child for me, um is you know, is
maybe setting themselves up for a surprise. Uh So I
wanted to put the record out in June, obviously, I
wanted to give myself a little bit more space and
(08:57):
not you know, go head to head with who's coming
for who's the headliner, who's the opener? Is it the child?
Is that the baby? What? Um? But I did know
that I was so excited about sharing this record that
actually got me to this place um of life, of
fullness of life, UM, that I didn't want to push
(09:19):
it to twenty one because I just know my energy
is about to shift UM and my world is about
to expand in in such an incredible way that, like
I wrote, I started kind of casually writing this record
in two thousand and seventeen, and it's really the sound shot.
I call it like the screen shot, but the sound
(09:41):
shot of the past three years. And I know my
next couple of years are going to be so full
and I will have so much to say, so let's
just onto the next. Plus it's a record full of
you know, hopefulness and resilience and about coming out of
the darkness. So I think if anyone is going through
that now, it could be it could be something for them.
(10:05):
I mean, I think in a way, we're all going
through that now, to one its stand or another. It's
it's it's hard to not be in the darkness at
this particular time in human history, given given the pandemic.
But you talk about coming out of the darkness. There
there's a note in the packaging for Smile and it's
it's actually signed Katherine, not Katie, and you you say,
(10:26):
many of these songs were written coming out of one
of my own darkest times, finding and fighting for the
light at the end of the tunnel. And so I
want to talk about Smile, you finding your smile again.
But let's start with the dark times, because that's kind
of where the album begins, isn't it. The first few
(10:46):
tracks on the record. Yeah, let's let's travel back to us.
So I guess travel back a few years to or
so oren. But but that's kind of where the album
begins with never really over cry about it later to
realize these are these are the darker times, right, Well,
you know, actually you're you're you're making a very observant note.
(11:08):
The sequence does tell a many story, um, and it
does start out with kind of the letting go, the
true letting go or or making a decision to let
go of this loop of love that I was in,
you know, the unhealthy relationships and going like I am
(11:29):
not going to fall back into that loop. I am
going to choose a different path, even though it's difficult. Um.
But the you know, there was it was a few
things in two thousand and seventeen. It was, um just
a shift in my own uh excitement and getting high
(11:53):
on my own supply with putting out music. It just
didn't really, it didn't. It didn't slap like it used
to UM. And I right before I put out the record,
I actually broke up with my now baby daddy because
I was just like, you know, I got to a
tipping point and I thought I was going to lean
(12:16):
on the validation of the outside world to get me
through you know, the bummer time of breaking up with someone.
But then, you know, then I wasn't getting fed from
the outside world like I was used to. So everything
started falling apart. Basically, the foundation started cracking. And I
didn't realize that I put so much um uh self
(12:40):
worth and validation and everyone else's hands, and when they
don't give it back to you, it's a huge void. Um.
So we're talking about when when Witness came out, that's
that's the moment when we're it's you know, as a
Katy Perry fan, as somebody who, hey, that's not my
favorite Katie Perry record, but I like a lot of
(13:01):
songs on it. It's a Katie Perry record. But the
world seemed to say, like, you know what, maybe we've
had enough, maybe we want to take a break. Am
I am I exaggerating? No, you are not at all.
You are so right. And I felt that, and I
am a you know, I'm a master of feelings. That's
my job is to um observe and feel the feelings
(13:23):
and you know, put them into little definitions and ideas
and songs. I take feelings and I create worlds. So
I was feeling that rejection pretty heavily. Um and you
know I did. I did what a lot of artists
do at some point in their careers, is I took
(13:45):
a leap because I wanted to experiment. I wanted to
break them kind of box that I had created for
myself of being maybe a little too Sachard or too pop.
I wanted to really sonically investigate the dimensions out there.
And I did. And so Witness was really my kind
(14:07):
of like a little bit, a little bit not too much.
It wasn't like I was like going cuckoo for cocoa puffs,
you know, experimentally. Um. But I was definitely trying on
new things and I loved it. Um. I was just
trying to like kind of shake an old version of
myself and evolve and I didn't really know how to
(14:29):
do it, but this was my way of doing it artistically. Um.
And so yeah, it was um. It was a It
was a shift, and it wasn't like the biggest shift,
like I still had a number one record, I still
had success with change of the rhythm. Bona petite is
a huge you know, there's you know, if you look
at it from a numbers world or a business world,
(14:50):
it's not like as much as maybe I am I
I made it out to be, or as much as
I felt it. But remember I was only on a
roller coaster going up for ten years, like hot hot, hot,
hot fire, and any one small little shift was was
like it was like the first time, you know, you
feel an earthquake, You're like, what the hell is that?
(15:11):
I'm getting my coffee? Okay, all right, I'm glad, I'm
is it decalf Katie? Are you allowed to have caffeinated coffee?
I am? Thank you for your concern and also she
is cooked. Okay. She literally has a hand coming out
right now waving to you. I'm good. You were saying, oh,
(15:38):
you know, like, I'm not going to compare myself to
Bob Dylan, but when Bob Dylan did his electric record,
people were like boom, or when what's his name did
his eighties record? Um, I'm totally pregnancy brain. That's why
I grabbed my coffee. It's totally fine. But you know what,
there are moments where people don't even have to try
(15:59):
different things to get negative feedback. Like I think back
to being a Madonna fan, Erotica comes out from from
my perspective, her most consistent record from beginning to end,
the world was like, yeah, I don't want this, We
don't want this right now? Or Lady Gaga with art pop.
The world suddenly seemed to discover all at once that
(16:21):
she's kind of pretentious, and I was like, didn't we
know that from the start, and that one of the
reasons we enjoy her? Yeah, Like didn't we didn't? We
love the the attitude, right wow, I love that, you
know what it's and and it makes me feel like
I'm you know, I'm on the right path, and it's
really about peaks and valleys and writing it. Especially when
(16:44):
I hear about you know, someone like yourself. You're a
couple of years older than I am, but you've been
a music fan and you saw Erotica, You've seen Madonna
go through all those evolutions, and she's someone I really
look up to for a couple of pillars. She has
fought against agism, she has fought against sexism, she has
fought against stereotypes. Like everyone wanted to put her in
(17:08):
a box and she has broken. She's blown that box
up every single time. And like whatever you think about
her now, great, but like she laid the foundation, meaning
like you know, she's still evolving and still changing. And
I went and saw her last show, and if I'm
doing that at her age, I would be so lucky.
(17:30):
Like yeah, I don't. I don't think I will be
uh moving aerobically for that long a period. Uh that's
the minutes of an exercise class, is what I can
get through. Not an entire Madonna production. I mean it was,
and it was really it was like it was innovative
and interesting and it wasn't phoned in. But like thinking back,
(17:53):
you know what you know of course, like I hear
about um just you know, like people talking about there's
always something shiny and new every year, right, and it's
different when you be when you're not the shiny new thing,
and it does something to your psychology. But it's it's
it's actually it's like a good test of your character
(18:16):
and a good test of who you are as an
artist and what you're made of. And I just think back,
like some of my favorite albums that I was aware
of because I was, you know, a little bit younger,
but Ray of Light, right after she had her baby,
you know, changed my life. Confessions on a dance floor.
She's in her forties, I think, you know, like, so
(18:39):
I look at that, I go, wow, I'm excited for
the future. Yeah. But but you were also talking about
seeking validation from outside and and that moment when Witness
came out was a moment. You may have had the numbers,
you may have had the hits, but it was a
moment where what was coming back. And I don't know
how much you read criticism, but what was coming back
(19:01):
would be a little mean, a little pointed. And I
don't know how active you are on social media. Many
of us follow you. I don't know how much you
follow the rest of us. But did that stuff coming back,
did it get you down? Yeah? I mean I don't
have Google alerts on myself. Um, and I do wish that, like,
you know, I could be just you know, you just
(19:23):
put it out in the world and go there. It
is goodbye. And I do know I like and I
maybe say it out loud because I'm still telling myself
I have no control once I put it out, it
is up to the consumer. It is up to the
audience to do with it as they please. This is
just my story, this is my experience, this is my touchdone.
(19:45):
It's actually a real touchdone of a record. For me,
smile is to remind myself that I walked through the
hell and I survived it. But when Witness came out,
or when any record comes out, you are more aware
because just there's so much going on and so you
will see stuff and you will hear stuff. But it
(20:05):
was definitely like every artist goes through a bit of
a leveling period, and it was definitely the leveling period.
And I really believe that, you know, more than half
of the reason I'm here is because of people, and
they do have the power and they put me on
the pedestal, and they, you know, every once in a
(20:28):
while need to remind whoever they put on the pedestal
that they put them there and smile. You talk about
being served a piece of humble pie. Rejection can be
God's protection. That's a lyric that popped out at me.
Daisy's got um. It seems like a reference to this
is well, took those sticks and stones showed them I
(20:49):
could build a house. Right, I mean, this is this
is you're you're you're talking about turning around the negativity
into something useful for yourself. Well, I mean this might
stunt a little bit, like you know, spiritual hippie dippy,
but my brokenness became my wholeness because it was like,
(21:09):
you know, I'm a scorpio. So I definitely resonate with
the continual story of the phoenix rising from the ashes
or the flower growing through the concrete. Like Resilient says
on the record, Um, I I learned my best lessons
from hitting the bottom sometimes or falling flat on my face.
(21:32):
But um, yeah, I think when I say rejection is
God protect God's protection or um took those six and
stones and showed him I could build a house. I
I built a new foundation and a version of me,
not a version of me. I nurtured myself to be
a multidimensional human rather than just a single minded you know,
(21:58):
um one goal, which is to become the best pop
star ever and ring that bell and have the biggest
success tour, you know, number one, blah blah blah. Now
like now I know how to be still. Now I
know that, Like I'm going to have a baby and
be a mother. Now I know how to say no,
(22:18):
and now I know how to have like pause. I
I was on a rocket ship and holding on for
dear life and kind of foaming at the mouth, and
it just feels a lot more grounded and expansive because
I kind of got out of that loop of one
(22:39):
single idea of one goal, you know. Yeah, I mean
I think I'll look back and be like thanks God
for otherwise. I feel like, you know, you read these
stories sometimes about your favorite entertainers not having the best ending,
and I want to be a grandma. Okay, all right,
(23:00):
that's putting a little pressure on the baby that hasn't
been born yet. But we've we've she's she's got some
time to catch up to your desire for grandchildren. What
I'm saying, So let's talk about how some of this
(23:25):
building the multidimensional Katie or Catherine happens. Um. You know, Uh,
you talked a little bit. I think it was about this,
and I was interested by this, so I looked it up.
This intensive therapy project that the Hoffman Process, um and
and I've read a little about it. You said it
(23:47):
was a reset for you. I know it was started
in the sixties by guy named Bob Hoffman. That it's
a week long therapy retreat and it's centered around letting
go of negative behaviors. What can you tell me about
It's like ten years of therapy in one week. It's
like concentrated juice. I'm done for that. Uh not because
I want to take a shortcut, because I just like,
(24:08):
you know, I don't want to fight my demons for
ten years. UM. So you know, it's a There's a
lot of different things out there, but this process definitely
put me on a new path. And actually my friends
had gone before me, Orlando had gone before me. Um
(24:31):
and I ended up going because I was like, Wow,
I don't really have any more options. I either decide
to change myself or I may not live to see
the next year. Um, and so I did it. And
it's basically it's one of the main things that you
do is you rewire the way you think about yourself.
(24:54):
Which I don't know about you, but for me, I
have this like CNN News ticker of negat ativity that
was constantly going through my mind, you know, and just
like saying, you're fat, you're ugly, ugly, you're a loser,
you're you just got lucky, you're just you know, you're
not really invited, You'll never be enough, you'll never be enough,
(25:15):
You'll never be enough, blah blah blah blah blah blah.
And that was really loud, and um. There there's a
process there by way of you know, like different like
guided visualizations, different psychological exercise exercises, silence that you really
(25:37):
quiet it and it and and it still pops up,
you know, like the devil doesn't sleep. I always say that, like,
and the devil works harder. It's those are two sayings
I think that are hundreds of years old and still
ring true. Like, you know, everything in life is two things.
It's a yen a yang. You may not believe in
(25:58):
the devil, but there is a positive and a negative,
and you really have to do the work to stay
on the positive path. So yeah, I went there and
it changed my life and I've so far been able
to um, you know send I would say thirty forty
different people that are close to me, and it's changed
(26:19):
their lives and I could not recommend it more. And
it's the hardest thing you'll ever do. But it's a rebirth, um,
and it's you know, rebirths are not neat and tidy,
They're messy and bloody. Says the expectant mother. Uh, you
were an assistant dullah for your sister for her home birth.
(26:42):
Do I have this right? You've you've been through the
birthing process for his secondhand as it were. Yeah, I
mean I wasn't. I wouldn't label myself as a duela,
but um, I was there and I helped, and I
saw and I experienced and I've seen the miracle of
child birth and you know, so I M I haven't
(27:06):
felt it, but I won't won't be surprised by the
by the site and the idea of it. Um. I'm
happy to have that, you know, and not just have
only YouTube video references to go by. So in talking
about the happening process, you said two things I want
to circle back on because there you were saying a
(27:26):
lot there um and And the first is you said
you went there and you felt like you had to
go there, or you weren't sure you were going to
see the next year or the next day. My voice,
those voices were so loud, so and stop me if
I'm getting too personal. Does that mean you were thinking
I'm going to check out, I'm I'm I'm done, I'm
(27:47):
withdrawing from life, or I'm ending my life or what? What? What?
What were those voices saying? Yeah, I mean it was
just saying that like, oh, you know, it's getting too
hard to deal with the weight of the world old
or you know, I don't know how other people think
when they have these thoughts, if they ever have these thoughts,
and not a lot of people have them. Some people do.
(28:10):
Some people are listening right now and bobbing their hand
and go, yep, I know exactly what she's talking about. UM.
But you know, sometimes it's like, oh, I'll have the
last word. UM, you know I had I just had
a friend of a friend, unfortunately UM pass away by
taking her own life. And it was one of those
(28:34):
things that we I'm not very close to her, but
um and God rest her soul, but it was one
of those things where she was suffering. And some people
suffer so much and it's so hard, and they don't
know where to turn, and they don't have the tools,
and they're like almost just kind of stuck in that mindset.
They just have no idea how to think outside of
(28:57):
that mindset. And for me, I was there. I know,
I know, I know exactly that feeling. I know, like
anyone could you know, someone could be like, well just
think on the bright side, and you're like, fuck off.
You're like you don't understand where I'm at right now mentally,
(29:17):
like I can't get out of bed or what have you.
But um, it's the real deal, and um, you know,
it doesn't discriminate, like depression and anxiety and all those things.
It doesn't matter how much you have or how much
you don't have. Sometimes you see the person that doesn't
have anything and they're the happiest person in the world.
You're like, what I mean, this is not what we've
(29:39):
been sold. You know, I really want to express my
admiration and appreciation for you being so open about this,
and and I also want to emphasize that it's not
the first time you've been vulnerable in this way. When
I was preparing to do this interview, I went back
I watched the part of Me film UM and I
(30:00):
aw you at one of your lowest moments and thought,
this is a brave choice to show yourself. You're you're
in tears, you're you're dealing with the fallout of your
first marriage, you're deciding whether or not to get on stage,
and this is your movie. That was your choice to
show this in this movie. And I thought, this is
kind of amazing. Uh, this is this is brave. Is
(30:22):
either like show the real and feel like connected and
or or show some kind of cookie cutter propaganda like
we all do on Instagram. Like what if we had
an alt version of ourselves on Instagram where you just
took photos of yourself when you're in the worst, like
when you're crying, when you're upset, when you're stressed out,
(30:44):
that would be that would be a real serve, right,
I mean, we only take photos of ourselves when we're
trying to project perfectionism. And it's like tail as old
as time you see sometimes people have like the best
Instagram and then you meet them in real life and
you're like, oh my god, you're not the same person. Yeah,
(31:05):
I've seen that movie. We put up vacation pictures. We
don't put up our shitty day at work pictures. Yeah.
I mean, like Joe, even if you just like took
a photo of yourself off the shitty day at work
and you just captioned it shitty day at work with
like no like other angle, it would just be so
funny because it's so real, you know. It's like, yeah,
(31:27):
most seven out of ten days are kind of like this. Yeah,
they not seven, maybe five maybe, I don't know. That's
that's that's that's a pretty good average. Actually, out of
ten in the pandemic, maybe three to five in outside
of it. Okay, alright, alright, so, um, once we get
past the darkness and we get back into the Daisies
(31:51):
resilient not the end of the world, smile this moment
in the album where you're you're you're regaining some of
that power, some of that resilience, some of that smile
talk to me about about first, let's talk about that
point in your life. How did you reclaim that for
yourself and then let's talk about the music. Yeah, well,
I literally just had to kind of like push myself
(32:17):
at my body and put one foot in front of
the other, and like it's like when you when you
for me, I don't love exercising, but I just we
all just know that it's it feels so great afterwards,
and then you tell yourself afterwards, You're like why don't
I do this every day? You know? But putting on
the sports where it's like come on, you know, I mean,
(32:39):
like why, And so that's kind of what it was.
It was like moving with cement feet, but I could
still move little by little and the steps got bigger,
and um, you know, there were people that were helping
me obviously, Like Orlando never deserted me through this time.
He was always there. Definitely had boundaries, and but it
(33:03):
was always there kind of as a pillar and leading
by example, and he was conscious of where I was.
So he was there for me with you know, with
with some boundaries, which was great. And so you know,
it was good to have some friends and the my
my team that I've had with me for over fifteen years.
(33:27):
They were just like pushing me in the right direction.
They helped me create the space to you know, do
things like the Hoffman process. Um. But you know, I
do have this higher self inside of me just like
everyone else does, Like this higher consciousness, this better self
inside of me that sometimes just takes over and goes
(33:51):
all right, sweetie, looks like you can't put your pants
on one leg at a time anymore. I'm gonna take
over and I'm dragging you to words the end of
the tunnel. You know, there's like it's almost a bit
magical in that way, like I truly believe I'm a
soul wearing a costume or a meat sack. Um, And
(34:14):
sometimes my soul is the one that's like, no, sweetie,
we're gonna do it now on my terms. So a
little a little help from the ovens of sorts, okay, okay,
you know, and cry about it later. Teary eyes, those
are those are sort of tears on the dance floor,
like let's let's have a little fun. There's there's some
bad times, there's some tragedy, but let's have a little fun.
(34:36):
Was was that part of it for you too? Were you? Yeah?
There's I mean there's some necessary escapism, but you know,
you can't escape too much then, because then you find
yourself at that um. You know, that that um, that
Donkey Donkey, Disneyland and Pinocchio, where like you go there,
(34:57):
it's fun, you're gambling your drink in, you're having cigars,
you're with your friends, and then you turn into an ass.
So you have to get out before you turn into
an ass. And it's a fine line, and sometimes it
creeps up on you. You know, it's like right around
there and you're like, oh crap. I always referenced that
time in Pinocchio because it's so true. It's like, have
a little fun, but straddle the line, guys um, and
(35:22):
so cry about it later. Interior Eyes is definitely about,
you know, letting the letting go. It's the letting go
of the loop of love that I was in, you know.
It's the letting go of idealism. Is the letting go
of the idea I could change someone. You know, it's
the letting go of my twenties. It's the letting go
(35:47):
of fantasy. It's the letting go of you know, a
lot of different things. So I think there's like it's
like I'm gonna keep moving, but I'm I may be crying.
But that's okay, all right, here we go. Oh, we're
just gonna let go and we're gonna keep moving. That's
a lot to uh, that's a lot to let go.
That's a lot of ground to cover in just two songs, Katie, Uh,
(36:09):
well there's there. So there's a lot of other vibes.
That's true. That's true. Smile and Daisies or or both
songs about getting getting some strength back, taking some strength back,
letting your higher self, higher better self, take the wheel
as it were. Um, these are songs. We've been in
(36:31):
this territory before with your records. You know, you've given
us firework and roar and and so we're smiling Daisies.
Are these more personal songs this time? Or the Cousins? Yeah,
they're more t m I cousins, Well not Daisies. But Smile,
you know, is definitely kind of a real calendar journey
(36:58):
of like what I went through, Like it's very it's
very this is this is exactly how I would explain
it if it wasn't in a song, right, But Daisy
is a little bit you know, less personal maybe and
for everyone to kind of find themselves in it as well,
because I'm not the first person to have a dream
(37:20):
bigger than what everyone else says I should be dreaming.
You know, I'm not the first one to dream big
and then try and go for it um and be
laughed at all along the way. Um. So I think
there's a lot of people that really resonate and relate
to that that narrative. Like I said, I seem to
really embody my scorpio archetype. I know jack shit about astrology,
(37:46):
so you can tell me anything you want about that
scorpio archetype and I'll agree with it. All I know
is that the stars have been here for a long
time before me, and we'll be there way after me,
so they must hold some significant step. Sure, this is
something we may need to consult Neil to grasp Tyson for.
But yes, no, I think that there's there's probably some
(38:07):
significance in in the Stars. It's funny you mentioned Smile
as a almost like a timeline, and it's got that
(38:29):
Lionel Richie name check in it. How much was American idol?
I don't know a kind of safe place for you
or replaced it to get back some some sense of
strength and self because it's a different experience to do
that show than to go out on the road touring.
Is it a little healthier. Yeah, there's balance and that
(38:51):
you're not, you know, flying from Europe to Australia twice
a week, you know, I mean really it's it takes
its toll sometimes when your body feels upside down. Um,
the physical aspect of of touring is really intense. And
every time I'm finishing a tour, I get a tattoo
(39:13):
to kind of commemorate the intensity. And we all get
a tattoo. It's like a bloodshed moment. You mean, the
whole crew, everybody ever. Yeah, it's like I bring a
tattoo artist and it's like a bloodshed bonding moment. It's like, Wow,
we lived to tell and we're proud of it, you know,
and now we'll now we'll forever have kind of this
(39:34):
signature on ourselves that says that tells a story. But yeah,
it was a moment for me to Also I've always
wanted to do something like this American idol or you know,
something that involved music and talent and competition. But I've
always just been going hunter and fifty miles per hour.
(39:56):
And also I took it as an opportunity for the
American public to have better understanding of me as a
person and not just as what they you know, saw
what what I what? What what? Either I bite size,
hand fed or the media decided that they we're going
(40:19):
to make me out to be because the media can
make anyone out to be any type of character. Um.
And if you don't tell your story, someone's gonna tell
it for you, honey. And so I found it to
be uh, not only it was like three pronged. Of course,
it was a way for me to have balance at home.
(40:40):
It was a way for me to really kind of um,
have a bigger better relationship with with the public personally,
personality wise. And it truly was a show that was
actually changing lives. And I'm about that, you know, I'm
about people. I'm about heart, some about wholeness and happiness,
(41:02):
and like this show every season has a lottery ticket
for someone out there who's life will be changed and
maybe even in the top five or top ten, their
life will be changed and their fit and that means
their family's life will be changed. That means you know,
it's a ripple trickle down effect. Um. And so I
(41:23):
love this show more than any of the shows, because
you can name ten different successful artists and no other
show you can, you know, even even if it shares
this a little bit of the same format. And that's
that's as trash talking as I'll be. Okay, While the
gauntlet is thrown down, the American Idol Voice feud continues.
(41:47):
It's not a feud. I'm not trying to make it
out to be one. We don't have to complain about anything.
I know you've you know, you've been very public about
saying that you view the uh mending of fen is
between you and Taylor Swift is a lesson for young
women out there. Uh you know, I know you're not
going to talk trash. You can only lead by example, huh. Okay,
(42:12):
and sometimes you know, it's important to do that for
the greater good. Okay, it's important to do it for
you as well, right, I mean for the on the
personal level, of course, of course that's important. But you know,
you think about if you can, if you can zoom out,
you think about you know, all of it. I mean,
(42:32):
I guess we are people that some young people look
up to, and um, you know, I've never had a
problem with that in the beginning. I remember it was
so interesting into it was all about purity rings and
the Jonas brothers had purity rings and everybody wasn't having
sex before marriage, and you know there's this like real
(42:53):
like traditionalism, and you know there there is all of
the questions that were being asked of me and my
two and three years is about being a role model.
And it was kind of like I didn't I didn't
want to. I didn't want to say yes, because, uh,
does a being a role model mean I have to
(43:15):
be perfect and I can never make a mistake. It
felt like that's what the setup was, right because I
knew I was just I knew I was going to
make mistakes, especially from where I come from. You know,
I was born in like a single frame of mind.
And um, so so you mean that you you you
came from a sort of evangelist Christian perspective where a
(43:38):
certain kind of I mean, being a role model was
literally expected, right, I mean it's very clear. Yeah, yeah,
I mean I'm I'm a pastor's daughter. So like I
understood what it means, what it meant to sit in
the front role and not fidget and like you know,
and to be attentive and aware and blah blah blah,
(44:00):
take notes and like lead by example. But I was
never that way, and um, I always I always knew
I was just like well all a lot of my
education started when I had the opportunity to travel like expansively,
when I was twenty three, when things started all happening.
So most of my peeling off of ignorance and lack
(44:24):
of education has just happened under the spotlight, you know.
That's that's why I don't always get it right, because
I'm learning through the process. Certainly, I remember this time
when that first record came out. But it's so funny
that that people are gonna come to you and ask
you about being a role model, because coloring outside the
(44:46):
lines was one of the great things about you at
the start, that you you were in a cookie cutter
pop star, that you you were you were different, right,
I mean you you know, you had you had you
had a sense of humor, You might curse, you might
kiss a girl. We didn't know what was gonna happen.
Can you believe you know? I wrote a song about
(45:07):
you know, bisexuality back in two thousand and eight, and
it was so taboo wow. Um. I also like to
remind people that this is the business of rock and roll.
Pre Internet, everyone was like having sex with everyone and
doing copious amounts of drugs. So where was I? Okay,
(45:29):
all right, Joe, you remember the time well, as the
old Grace Slick saying goes, if you can remember them,
you weren't there, that's amazing. But I barely can't remember twenties.
(45:52):
So there we go. We had fun. Though. One last
thing about the whole idea of the smile. Um, you know,
the whole idea of smiling. It comes up in another song.
Not the end of the world you're talking about. Take
that frown, turn it upside down, right. Its flipping things around.
(46:13):
There's a reference to the old song uh Nana Hey,
kiss him goodbye, but you're saying, don't say goodbye. So
it's really about flipping things around. And it's like duality again.
It's like it's to two choices. Like this free will
thing that we have that people talk about. You have
a choice to do this or a choice to do that.
(46:34):
Every choice has an outcome. Um. Every you know, thought
can be either negative or positive. Um. And you can
either see an ending as a beginning or you can
see an ending as a as a doom doom, doom
doom moment. But I believe that everything is cyclical and
that the ending is so close to the beginning, just
(46:55):
like the hate is so close to the love you
can almost reach out and touch it. But you know,
in what sense? Can the smile or is the smile
sometimes a mask? You know, we see you on the
cover of the album. You're made up as a clown.
You're you're You're not You're the sad clown, maybe not
the happy clown. Melancholy melancholy a more sophisticated word, I
(47:17):
stand corrected, Well, it is. It is playing off of
that kind of simple narrative, the narrative of the clown
who lust its smile or a sense of playfulness. Um,
but I guess the I guess the album. The music
actually is a lot more upbeat and you know, um
(47:38):
energetic than the art is on the cover. I think
maybe what I'm trying to say, or as I figured
it out up until now, is that like through that
art is that I found my smile. But wow, I'm
not gonna be ignorant to think that, like, you know,
(48:01):
everything is hunky dorrier Peachie Keen jelly Bean for the
rest of my life, like I will never not have problems,
or like, for instance, if I could amend the saying
what doesn't kill you makes you stronger too, what doesn't
kill you makes you stronger, but sometimes you lose a limb,
(48:21):
you know, or sometimes you stay in bed for a while,
then I would because it's not always as black and
white as what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. It's like,
holy hell, that was intense. So I want to ask
you about the last track on the record, What Makes
a Woman, where you sing about feeling it your most beautiful,
(48:44):
doing whatever the funk you want. Um So, when I
first heard of this song, I thought about the acoustic
album that you've threatened to make in the past. You know,
you've talked about this a couple of times, right, and
playing acoustic guitar is is one of the places where
things really started for you with music. Um So, talk
to me a little bit about this song, which you've
said is has a real particular importance to you. Yes,
(49:08):
I mean many people that sequence the record or artists,
they are always mindful of the first and the last song.
The first song sets the town and that's what I
wanted to do with this one with never really over.
It's familiar, you sing along, you're already in. You get
a good feeling from it because of maybe the nostalgia
(49:30):
of not COVID two thousand nine, right, a different time, right.
And then it ends with what makes a woman? Because
it's really the I guess it's um, the song that
I really resonate with the most, even right now, even
even though I I didn't write it when I had
(49:52):
a child in me. UM. But it is almost a
trick question, um, because if you can answer what makes
a woman, then maybe you are not a woman or
you have yet to live your whole life as a woman.
In that there's so much expansiveness. UM. I always and
(50:16):
I have fought against this narrative that women are just
one thing or can do just one thing. And it's
really interesting, you know, I do these interviews and sometimes
I will get people that you can tell are still
they still think in a certain type of way, and
they go Also, once you know you have the baby,
you're going to go away for a while and you know,
(50:38):
be a mom, and that's it, and just why don't
you just go away and I'm like, um, I'm sorry.
You know, Beyonce has twins and another daughter and she's
you know, doing what she loves. And there's many people
that are working moms and do what they love. And
are you basically telling me to forfeit or that I
(51:00):
have to choose or that I won't I wouldn't be
What I hear is that, like, I wouldn't be enough
if I was doing both. You know what I'm saying,
I wouldn't be doing it right. I guess that's what
I hear. And what I think is like, actually, I
feel like we were given this incredible opportunity to create
(51:21):
life because we have more than enough. We have. Yeah,
we are women, are you know, we get a little
bit stereotyped that we're incredibly emotional figures. That's because we
can create multiple humans with multiple sets of emotions. Like
it's all in there, honey, we are born with those eggs.
We got it right. So it's also a song about
(51:45):
the effortlessness that you know, we balance life with as women,
and sometimes we decide to do it all in one
day and go out in a pair of heels just
to show off, like that we can't, you know, like
There's a lot of layers and UM, it's just my
(52:07):
it is my um constant way of you know, trying
to um, I guess, fight for the right to be
anything I want to be or try anything I want
to try and be that chameleon that I know I
am and not be put in a box. You brought
(52:29):
up this sort of the expectations of what happens next.
Maybe you're gonna take a break, maybe you're But so
let me ask you what what happens next? Katie? What? What? What? What? What?
What's the future? Hold? Whatever I want? Honestly, I'll do
it as it comes. If you know, if I I
(52:51):
feel like I can balance beautifully, I will. If I
feel like I can't, I won't. I will obviously, you know,
put my vulnerable young soon to be born child first. UM.
And you know, I'm I don't think I'm going to
(53:12):
have a plan necessarily. Planning is future. I just I
think it's one of those moments where it's like just
be present, sure, change some diapers and see what happens
exactly all right, Katie Perry, thank you so much for
being here. Thank you Joe, thanks for this. I appreciate you.
(53:41):
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