Tower of Power’s Emilio Castillo

The co-founder of the legendary Bay Area funk outfit opens up his 50-year career, including the tales behind chart toppers like “You’re Still a Young Man” and “What Is Hip.” He also gets real about encounters with The Rolling Stones, Aretha Franklin, Quincy Jones and more.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Inside the
Studio on iHeart Radio. My name is Jordan run Talk,
but enough about me. My guest today is the co
founder and leader of one of the greatest horn sections
on planet Earth. They've notched hits like so Very Hard
to Go, You're Still a young Man, and of course
the immortal floor filler What Is Hip. They've also backed

(00:23):
a dizzying array of music's biggest artists, from Elton John
and The Stones to Huey Lewis, Little Feet, Santana. The
list goes on and on. The group celebrated half a
century together with a new live album recorded in their
hometown of Oakland. It's called fifty Years of Funking Soul
Live at the Fox Theater. And now you're about to
hear all sorts of tales from their incredible run. From

(00:44):
the guy who's been there for every note of their music.
I'm so happy to welcome Mr Emilio Castillo from Tower
of Power. Well, I have so many things to ask you.
I guess we'll just dive right in. You just wrapped
up a new tour with Tower of Power. It must
have been so nice to get back out on the
road after the last year and a half. I imagine
that was probably the longest time you've been off the

(01:06):
road in quite some years. If you two years, I've
never gone off the road that much. That is nuts.
Oh my goodness. I mean, how was that time at home?
Did you find yourself uh staying sharp musically by by writing?
And like, what kind of stuff did you do to
keep busy? I did? I wrote. I practiced my instrument,

(01:27):
which I've never really been one to practice a lot.
I never needed to, I confess that because I play
all the time, you know, But I practiced my instruments,
and uh did some writing. Uh. I got married, uh
not quite a year before the pandemic, and uh so it's,
you know, some great time to be with my new

(01:48):
wife and uh that's wonderful. Yeah, really nice. And uh,
you know, I was kind of a nonbelief for six months,
thinking it's gonna end any day. And after six months,
I strapped myself in and said I'm in for the
long haul and made the best of it, and uh,
you know, a lot of good things came out of it.
But uh, grateful to be back at work. Yeah, what

(02:09):
was the response, Like, must have been really rapture us
really good for the most part, not every single gig.
I mean, we always get a good response, but some
better know, some were really off the change, you know,
Like we just did this last weekend five shows in
Seattle at the Jazz Alley, and every one of the
shows was packed and they were just really excited, and uh,

(02:31):
that really makes it easy for us to do a
good show. Oh Man. Speaking of live performances, he was
recently released a live album celebrating your fiftieth anniversary as
a band, fittingly at the Fox Theater in Oakland, Taking
it all the way back to you start. How did
this all begin for you? Was there a moment when
you knew that music was going to be sort of
a guiding force in your life. Well, I started playing

(02:54):
when I was fourteen, and I always tell people, you know,
we we did it completely bad awards. We didn't practice
for years and years and joined the band. We started
a band the first day, and then we learned how
to play. And I remember my my buddy Jody Lopez
around the corner had gotten the guitar and he knew

(03:14):
how to play that intro to a Pretty Woman by
Roy Orbison, No No, No, no, no, no no, and
my brother could go bad bad ba the drum and
I squeaked on the saxophone, and my mother walked in
and said, they're gonna be huge stars. And you know,
it's like the band just became my whole life. And
very shortly after that, my father came to me and

(03:39):
he said, you have to be the leader of the band. Now.
My brother was the drummer, and he's ten months older
than me, and so he was the leader. You know,
we're kids. The older one's leader. And I said, no,
Jack's the leader, you know, and he goes, no, he goes,
you need to be the leader because you you're the
one that's sort of telling everybody what to do musically,

(04:01):
you know. And uh, and he forced me to be
a leader, and that changed my life. Now. A lot
of bands in the mid sixties are heavily influenced by
the Beatles on Ed Sullivan, but you were different in that.
From my understanding, you were influenced by another b the Batman.
That's true. Uh, that wasn't really our idea. We uh,

(04:24):
we liked rock and roll, you know, we you know,
for there was when we first started playing, people wore costumes,
you know, there was Paul Revere and the Raiders, and
in the Bay Area there was some friends at our
high school named Peter Wheat and the Breadman. There was
another band called the Dutch Masters, who you know, dressed
like those Puritans on the cigar boxes. You know, there

(04:48):
were all these bands that that dressed certain ways with
these costumes. And we were called the Extension Five and
we just played rock and roll, Louie Louie and you know,
hang on Sloopy and you know that kind of stuff.
And uh, we had a pretty titled bandon We all
were you know, sharkskin matador outfits, and uh, we went
to go audition at this place that it was actually

(05:10):
a topless bar, but on Sundays they had a team dance,
and so we went there to audition for the team
dance and the guy there, there's two of them, Sydney
Dopps and Jerry Rawlson. I'll never forget. These guys were
something else. And they came to my mother, who was
the manager at the time, and they said, we have
an idea. The Batman Show was just coming out, and

(05:34):
you know, when it actually came out, it proved to
be a really bogus sort of, you know. But before
it came out, the build up was huge. They had
a big ad campaign, and you know, Superman the series
was always very popular, and all of a sudden, he
comes Batman. Everybody thought it was going to be great.

(05:54):
Plus it was in color, you know, so it was
gonna be this huge thing. And he said, we want
to name your kids Batman and the Robins. We'll have
your drummer dresses Batman and all the other four guys
dresses rob and we'll put a blue silk thing around
the drums that looks like a bat cave. And we'll

(06:15):
put these boxes with lights blinking perforated plastic in front,
blinking so it looks like this. You know. Yeah, these
are you know, computers, I guess. And uh so you know,
my mom also quite a promoter, you know, she goes,
you know, yeah, we'll do that, you know. And they

(06:36):
said they're going to contact the TV show and say,
you know, you have to have them on the show.
So they did that. My mom and uh and Rockell's
mom got busy sewing you know, outfits, and they contacted
the TV show and said, you know, we're so excited
about the new show. That's gonna premiere, you know, the
next month, and uh, we really earned you to bring

(06:57):
on the hottest rocket roll band and business Batman and
the Robins, and they immediately got a letter that said
cease and desist immediately, and that's it's illegal to use
the name. And these guys, they didn't even miss a step.
They took a step back. They went, we'll call it
the Gotham City Crme Fighters and and that's what they did.

(07:21):
And and within like two weeks we were playing the
top places in the Bay Area as the number one
acts and they build us as don't miss the Gotham
City Crime Fighters with their fifteen thousand dollar like show.
Now you gotta stand in the nineteen fifteen thousand dollars

(07:43):
like you know, a hundred thousand dollars, you know, and
all we really have with these boxes that we made
out apply with with this plastic and the lights blinking.
But people bought it and we were mobbed. I mean
for about three months we were like the biggest stars
in the Bay Area. We played uh long Sherman's Hall
and the Boss and go go at the Hotel Leamington

(08:04):
all over town, you know, and and then you know
it all went away soon as the show came out.
It was bogus, you know, it was really yeah, Adam West,
the whole thing blew up. You know, we got tired
of it. Oh man. Well, aside from from Batman, who
are you? Some of your other early musical influences, I
mean James Brown, famous Flames come to mind immediately. You know,

(08:27):
you're born and raised in Detroit. I imagine there must
have been a lot of soul in those early days. Yeah.
I lived in Detroit till I was eleven, and my parents, uh,
you know, they loved albums, you know, and they played
them all the time, and singles. So they had Elvis Presley,
and they had Bill Dogg At Honkey Talk. They always

(08:49):
played the Platters. They really big fans of the Platters.
My mother said, I used to sit on the toilet
at six years old and sing only You by the Platters.
You know. I was a really good little mimic. And
then they listen to Sarah Van and Dinah Washington, a
lot of Nat King Cole, you know that kind of stuff.

(09:10):
So that's what I listened to as a young boy.
Then I got out to the Bay Area and I'm
missing my my friends in Detroit, and that's when all
those songs started coming out in New York by Carol
King and Jerry Goffin and Barry Man and Cynthia Wheel,
you know, the Drifters and uh, the Coasters and uh,
you know all that I love that sound. You know,

(09:35):
all those Burt Backrack songs by Jeanne Warwick. You know,
I love that stuff. And then right about that time
the Motown thing yet and of course I'm missing my
friends in Detroit, so the my radio became my friend,
you know, and I just loved songs and records, and
so all the Motown artists, Little Anthony and the Imperials.

(09:55):
Certainly later on James Brown. I remember my my and
I watching him on TV. And then one night Wayne
Cochrane came on. He was like the white James Brown
down in Florida, and we were watching me had this
big seven team piece band, and you know, we just
love that stuff. Sam and Dave otis reading really into it,

(10:16):
you know, before it a few years. One of the
pre eminent San Francisco promoters and impresarios in the sixties
and really ever, Bill Graham ran fill More West and
East at the time, and he signed you to his label.
How did you first link up with with Bill Graham. Well,
the first time I met Bill Graham, I was actually

(10:38):
it was right after the Gotham City Crime Fighters and
we went there in audition at the original fillm war
On Gary, Gary, and I remember Bill Graham went to
my mother and uh and he said, I think your
boys need to do another year in the garage and
uh we then, uh, you know, a few year years

(11:00):
later after I got into soul music and started uh
we we we had a band called the Motowns, and
when I met Doc, we wanted to get into the
Fillmore West and so we knew we'd never get in
there wearing suits and being called the Motowns. So we
changed the name the Tower of Power and grew out
here long and you know, started dressing like everybody else
was dressing that day during that time, hippies, you know,

(11:23):
And we got an audition at the Fillmore West and uh,
by God's grace, you know, Bill Graham Dougas and he
had just started two new record companies. One was distributed
to Colombia and the other one distributed to Atlantic, and
the one in Atlantic was San Francisco Records, and we
signed the first deal with them, and he was partners

(11:46):
with a producer named David Rubinson. So David Rubinson and
Bill they saw us audition and they dug it and
next thing I know, we were signed to an album deal.
And you know, everybody was trying to get on those labels.
I mean everybody in the Bay Area, and people were
flying in from Texas, from Chicago, from Florida to try

(12:06):
and get on Bill's label. And we were nobody. We
were like the little Puddley's you know, nobody knew who
we were, you know, and but we played good soul music.
We were good to dance too, and we had these
originals that we had written and they went yeah, and
they signed us. And you've often said that that, you know,
Oakland is your sound. I mean, what is it about

(12:27):
the Bay Area that really contributed to it, to your
music and made it what it was? You know, cities
in general have have when it comes to soul music.
They have a sound. You know, New Orleans has a
more a loose kind of bumped to it, and uh
they're singing is uh much different than say Motown or

(12:50):
Philly or Chicago or New York In Oakland. It was
a real urban soul sound and uh, you know, I
don't know if you know this, but sly Stone was
a disc jockey in Oakland, you know, and he was
a big influence on us because he was everybody's favorite DJ.
I mean, everybody listened to him as a DJ, even

(13:11):
people that weren't into soul music because he was such
a personality on the radio. And uh, you know, he
was first on ks O l K soul radio, then
he was on k d I A And right about
the time that I became a soul band, I saw
his band. Uh and the Stone had a local nightclub
near my house, and we used to go there Rock

(13:33):
and I every weekend, and we were you know, they
had a they had a cyclone fence in the back
and there was a swimming pool and there we used
to climb over that fence and go on the back
door of the club and sneak in and we would
stay there until like nine in the morning because at
eight o'clock they served free breakfast and fly in the
family Stone. They used to play like, you know, four

(13:55):
sets up till two am, you know, and then take
a break. And at two am, the bar shutdown. And
they had this law in Hayward, California, most of the
Bay Area that you couldn't dance and you couldn't drink
between two am and six am. So the bands have
played what's called after hours. They had to put on

(14:18):
a show, you know, they had they did stick. You know,
they would like do comedy with teens and like slying them.
They would go down onto the dance floor and do
handbone contest between each other and they would start a
song and everybody would switch over to the next instrument
and then played for a while and go to the
until they came all the way around back to their
own instrument. You know, stuff like that. You had to

(14:39):
do that to play after hours. We wound up being
an after hours band for you know, probably three years.
I mean we played after hours a lot. So Slyde
was a big influence on us. Not not that we
wanted to be our music to be like his. We
wanted our band to be exciting live like he was.
He had the energy and we doug that. And plus

(15:02):
he had gregor Rico on drums and that was the
first real hip folk drummer that he hit the scene,
and he was really bringing it, you know, and I
started messing with the beat right around it. Oh, I
mean slide It's crazy. I mean, like you said, I
mean what a huge influence in the scene. I mean
not only with the band and as a DJ. But
wasn't he was producing bands. Didn't he produce the initial

(15:25):
incarnation of Jefferson Airplane, the Great Great Society. Didn't he
produce some of their early stuff? But he produced the
Bo Brummels. Yeah that's right, laugh laugh, and yeah, just
a little prod, just little And he also produced Bobby
Freeman Come On and Swim, which was a huge nationally.
It's that was him. I didn't know that was him.

(15:46):
And he played the guitar. Oh that makes so much
sense because that could I mean that that's a heavy
record today. I I d J forty five Soul Nights
and stuff, and I play that all the time. Right,
It's great. Oh man, I mean how tight were you
in power of power with with San Francisco bands like
you know, the ones I just mentioned, like Jefferson Airplane

(16:07):
or Quicksilver Messenger Service or like were they they kind
of moved on more of the psyched people by the
time that you guys are really coming in your own
you know, they had kind of had their run by
the time we hit the scene. But over the the
years we became familiar with all of them because you know,
the Jefferson Air but they kind of you know, reunited

(16:28):
and changed your name to the Starship and we played
on their records and you know, Quicksilver Messenger Service, although
I didn't know them when, you know, before we got
signed a bill. After we got sent a billion years later,
I worked with Huey Lewis in the News and Mario
Cippolino was the bass player, and his brother John was
in Quicksilver Messenger Service and so and then David Freiberg

(16:52):
was the bass player for Quicksilver. He wound up being
the bass player for the Starship, you know. So, yeah,
I got to know all, you know, all the bands
in the Bay Area, and uh, it was a great
time to be in the Bay Area. I mean, the
whole world was looking at the Bay Area. Yeah, I mean,
that was the scene. I mean, and you know, I

(17:12):
give all the credit for that to Bill Graham. I mean,
he literally changed the music industry when he started throwing
concerts because he tweaked the collective ear of the Bay Area,
and he did it in New York too, And the
way he did it was once he got so popular
that his place was the place to be, and that

(17:33):
was pretty quickly. He'd have the Grateful Dead. But then
he'd have you know, uh Howland Wolf and uh Tito Puente,
you know, and then the next night, I need to
have Quicksilver and Miles Davis and Russ and Roland Kirk,
you know, all these. He would have Salmon Dave and
Nottice Reading and Janis Joplin, you know, all these really

(17:57):
and everybody. That's when you know, everybody's getting high, ending
their minds, and all these hippies are there just going, dude,
this is cool, you know, looking at Otis Redding, you know, well,
and you guys opening for Aretha, I think it's a
more East? What more West? What was that experience? Like? Phenomenal? Phenomenal.

(18:22):
We actually played a gig opening for her one week earlier,
the weekend before that, at the CBS convention in Los Angeles,
and Doc always tells this story. You know, we we
always stood at our microphones and played right in the microphones,
and we we had a big horn section sound. Well,
she had the Memphis Horns with her, and when she

(18:44):
played at the convention, you know, they all sat down
and they're reading parts, and the mics were like this
far away, and when they got we we we pretty
much and we brought it pretty good at the CBS convention.
So when we got to the film or us, we
noticed they were all other mics now. And then she

(19:04):
had Bernard Pretty playing drums for her, and uh and
you know he knew about us, and he really dug us,
and he used to come. We played this Monday and
Tuesday night gig in jack London Square called the on Broadway,
and everybody was coming to city and all the guys
from Sly cold Blood, Elvin Bishop, Bass, gags Q, Massachila

(19:27):
used to come to the Santana and Bernard Pretty when
he was in town, he would come down there, you know,
so he knew us. And uh so if you listen
to that record or Wreath Alive at the film or
on the last night when Ray Charles came to set
in the Spirit in the Dark, they took the ride

(19:47):
out really long and at one point he breaks it
down and Bernard had gotten off the drums. He was
because the David Gribble come on, you know, and David
plays the ride out after that, and then Bernard it's
getting so excited because David Grubin he starts smashing the
symbols on two and four, you know, and you can
hear that on the record. You know. It was a great, great,

(20:09):
great weekend. I remember also, Uh, cold Blood wanted to
play and uh, but Bill decided we were the ones
right for the year. But he let them play on
Saturday night. And so I went there and I'm listening
to cold Blood and you know, they had stolen our
trumpet player, Mickchillette, and so he was with them, and

(20:31):
but he missed us, and he used to come and
sit in with us all the time, even though he
was with them. And I remember he came to me
and he said, you know, I want to sit in
the film or when we played with Aretha, and I said,
you know, that wouldn't be right because you're with cold
Blood now, you know, and you're like their secret weapon.

(20:52):
It wouldn't be right for me to use them on
our set. So I didn't let him sit in with us.
And uh, I remember I was backstage sitting to them,
and they're a great band. It's a wonderful, you know.
And I was back there with a couple of the
background singers Sweethearts of Soul, and one of the girls
she's listening. She listen and she goes, they're good, Yeah

(21:12):
they are, and she does that as good as you
remember the story I always tell about Aretha. You know,
it was a real media event. So they had this
backstage dressing room. It was a big room, you know,

(21:33):
it was like three bedrooms the size of it, you know,
but all open, you know, and we're all in there,
you know. But there was so much media and so
many you know, groupies and hangers that everybody wanted to
be in that dressing room, so it was packed, you know,
and I couldn't even get in. So I was standing
in the doorway and here comes to a Wretha and

(21:58):
I'm standing there, and I turned the sideways and a
lead against the doorjam, and she slides in and she
faced to face with me, knows two knows, and she goes,
Tower Pout my favorite band, and I just melted. That's
one of my most favorite memories of all two. I

(22:20):
would ride that for the rest of my life. Yes,
that's amazing. Wow, God I mean just so many memories.
I mean, I you you mentioned earlier about sort of

(22:44):
making the jump from from playing covers to to write
in your own material. How did that come to pass?
How did you start writing your own music? And give
all the credit to Doc. My thing as the band
leader of the band called the Mo Towns was I
messed with the beat, and I messed with the horn arrangements,

(23:05):
and I messed with the vocal arrangements. So I would
make up these weird beats. We would be doing ninety
nine and a half by Wilson Pickett. But I didn't
want to do it with the beat for the record,
you know, Cal you know. I started to make up
a beat like dog, and I would teach my brother
the beat, you know, we would rehearse andhearsement. I get

(23:27):
him to the beat, and then I make up a
baseline doogle doogle goo goo good, doogle goo good. I
teach that to Rocco, and I find a part of
the guitar that you know, Jody could do that would
go in and out, you know, and uh, and then
I changed the horn parts a little bit, you know,
not a lot, but a little bit, you know, And
that was what I did. And one day Doc comes

(23:49):
to me after I hired him and he'd been in
the band for a little bit and we were sounded good,
you know, and he says, you know, what you're doing
with the song is amazing, you know he is, but
why are we doing him to everybody else's songs? Why
don't we run our own? And I was telling people,
I don't know that I ever would have thought about that.
That thought never occurred to me. I was totally happy

(24:10):
doing what I was doing, you know. But I looked
at me, my go we could try that, you know,
And so I went over to his apartment, you know,
a couple of days later, and uh, the first song
we wrote, You're Still a young Man still to this day,
one of the biggest turns we ever wrote, and that
was that I had heard a story that that was

(24:30):
semi autobiographical. Is that is that true? Well? Yeah, I
had a I was eighteen and I had a girlfriend
that was twenty four years old, and she was gorgeous,
gorgeous girl, and we we had this tord love affair.
And when she had this ex boyfriend and she wounded
up leaving to go back with the guy, and he

(24:51):
was kind of abusive. He was a Vietnam bed and
he was kind of abusive. But she had this thing
for me. She she left me to go back to
him and broke my heart. I mean, I was devastating,
you know, young, you know, and uh, but then she
came back to me, you know, and uh, when she
first broke up with me, she would always say, you know,

(25:12):
you need to hang out with girls your own age.
You know, you know, I'm told for you. You You know,
you know you're too young to be with a woman
my age. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no,
I want to be with you. So when we sat
down to write You're Still in a Man, first we
wrote the intro. We had this really great trumpet player,
Michel lead. And there was this song by the Impressions

(25:33):
called My Woman's Love that started with this beautiful intro
called it was a really high trumpet b Da da
da da dad. Uh. We loved it, you know, And
so the first thing Doc and me said, we got
to write a trumpet intro. So we wrote the intro
You're Still in Man. And then I said, so we

(25:55):
gotta tell us, well, how about a a guy is
you know, these girls are this girl is telling him,
you're too young, you know, don't waste your time with me,
and the guy's pleading his case. No, no, I'm not
too young. I love you, you know. And that was
basic enough me and this girl, Sharon Martin, and so yeah,
we just started writing down on my knees, hard in hand.

(26:18):
I was accused of being too young, but I'm not
too young. Can't you understand. I think like a man,
you're still a young man. The girls, you know, of course,
we didn't have no girls, so we sing background. Did
she ever know that that was about her? No? But she,
you know, I told her. She came back to me

(26:38):
and then broke up with me again, and the second
time I kind of got over it, and then she
came back a third time, and by then we had become,
you know, we had some notoriety by that power. She
was under the impression that I wrote this other song,
Sparkling in the Sandford because somebody said. I think somebody
told her, you know that song it's about you, then,

(27:00):
you know, But she thought it was this other one,
the song with the flute, Sparkling in the sand, which
was another love song, but that wasn't really written for her,
I gotta ask about what is hip? What is the
genesis of that track? And probably I would imagine, uh,
the the one that that gets people on their feet

(27:21):
the most that you show is just because it's such
a classic. Yeah, I mean it definitely is. Uh, you know,
we have to play it. We'll get lynched if we
don't play what is It? And we generally closed the
show with it, and there was Docs once again to
give the credit to Doc. You know, he's really lyrically
the clever lyricist. I kind of come up with clever

(27:41):
lyrics here and there. He sort of lives by them,
you know. And uh, he came to me and he said,
I want to write a song called what is Hip?
And I go, what is hip? What does that mean?
He goes, well, you know what's hip today? Tomorrow will
be past you know. I okay. And so we decided

(28:04):
to write it, and then we invited David Garibaldi to
come and join us in the writing process, and mainly
Doc and I came up with the chords, and you know,
him and I worked out the lyrics on the verses. Uh.
But Dave is the one that after we had written it,
he was in the rehearsal. Hall uh. They used to jam.

(28:25):
We would rehearse from eleven to five. But then these
guys from Santana would come over, you know at the
basse player Deeggie Rosher was really good and him and
David would jam. And there was a song called I'm
Going Down by Freddie King and it had this baseline
doo doo googogle. You know, it was really cool, you know,
and so they were jamming on that, and then David,

(28:46):
as he's prone to do, he always like you come
up with the beat, and then he goes, you know,
we could do this, you know, and so he put
this hit in there, a sixteen for one do do
do do? You know? And then then he added two
more bob, you know, and so he comes in he says, man,
we were me and Deugie were jamming last night. We

(29:08):
were jamming on that groove from them going down is
you know, maybe we could use that for what it
is hip. You know. They played it for me kidding
that work perfect, I saying right over it it fit perfectly.
And then Rockoll of course on the base, he took
it to another level on the base. Oh yeah, I

(29:30):
mean it's like an earthquake. I mean, that's that's that's
a song you gotta listen to on good speakers. It's
like you gotta feel that track. Oh man. I mean
there's so many things, so many incredible songs. I think
I have this right, I I you're I would imagine
you're one of the few people who's worked with both
Quincy Jones and George Martin. Uh two. I mean I'm

(29:55):
hard pressed to name more famous producers in history. What
were those experiences like? I mean, George Martin, I'm a
huge Beatles fans I was around. I imagine when he
was producing UM America. What what was he like in
the studio? Well, we did UM What was the Beatles movie?
Uh oh, Sergeant Pepper Sergeant Pepper's Only Heartscoued Band. Yes,

(30:19):
So they made the movie starring Peter Frampton, and he
brought in our horn section and some other horn players,
very good, Chuck Finley, Bill Watress, you know, and we
did like three or four days of recording, a lot
of recording. And he was a perfect gentleman always, but
he was very specific about what he wanted, you know,

(30:42):
and and he had a way of just really respectfully
letting you know, know right here we needed or you know,
I want you to check the tuning here right there
that notes a little short and I need the full
length on it. He was he was very musically, very knowledgeable,
and very pacific. And I we love that. We we

(31:03):
don't like him when we're in the you know, in
the studio and the producer goes. You know, I wanted
to be like you know when the rose pedals that
kind of stuff, you know, that makes do we like
people that talk to music, you know. And he was
a real musician. And then you know, we did that
and it was great. And then a few years later

(31:24):
he was producing the band America and he was up
at our studio that we recorded at and Soaslito the
record plans, and he called us again and uh and
and once again same thing. Real gentlemen, but respectfully, very
specific about what he wanted, and he just brought it
out of I mean, you can see why he was

(31:45):
such a great producer, you know. And I mean Quincy
must have been cool for you because all those stories
about you know, Saravan and swinging Miss d and folks
like that, I mean, folks you grew up with that
must have been a really nice whole circle moments for
all your influences. Yeah, we knew Quincy because we toured
with him when he had he had a hit record

(32:06):
called Body Heat, and he brought out a really hot
band and we actually he had a trumpet player named
Bill Lamb that used to come sitting with us. Him
and Mick Gillette together was phenomenal. But he also had
this guitar and basse player named Johnson, you know, Lewis
Johnson and his brother and he said, I'm going to

(32:28):
do a record on these guys, and I want you
guys to be on it because he really dug us.
I mean every night you know, we were bringing in
he he just dug the band a lot. So we're
all friendly, you know, and uh, sure enough, you know
a few months later, he calls us into the studio
in Los Angeles and, uh, you know, we're doing the
tracks and they sound great. You know, we're kind of

(32:51):
taking a little break and we're complimenting him on it.
He goes, this thing is gonna go go, you know immediately,
you know, and mind you no, he knew who the
brothers Johnson worked. You know, they had done one tour
with Quincy Jones. That's it so but that's how sure
of it he was. And he started talking about all
the gold records we had blah blah blah, and we

(33:13):
didn't have any gold records, you know. And he goes,
what do you mean you don't have any gold records? Go,
I don't know. We never got any, you know. And
he says, are you kidding me? Warner Brothers didn't send
you gold records for the Tower of Power albums or
back to Oakland and you I'm shocked by that. And
I go, now, we never got one, and he goes, uh,
well you're getting one for this one. This is going gold,

(33:35):
and you're gonna get one. It's sure enough. And a
couple of months later, delivered to my door gold record,
you know, And I still haven't. Oh that is a
great the one with the Sugar Otis tracks Strawberry Letter
twenty three. Oh, that is as a great record. We
actually played on that song. But I don't think he
put me. I think he took the horns off age.

(34:06):
It's funny. Before I knew I was talking to you,
I was watching or listening on YouTube to you and
the Stones at Candlestick Park almost exactly forty years ago
in October of eighty one. Uh, doing Satisfaction at the end.
It's on YouTube, and it just sounded so good. And
this is this is actually before I know I was
talking to you. I just wanted to hear it because

(34:27):
it's such a legendary show. What are your memories of
that night at Candlestick Park? I didn't know that was
on YouTube. I gotta watch. Yeah, that was phenomenal, you know.
Um Bill Graham was the one that promoted not only
that tour, but several of their tours at that time.
And uh, and he wanted us to play with the Stones.

(34:51):
But he came to me and he said, you know,
with the Rolling Stones, you can't go to them and
say I would like you to have these guys play
with you. You know, is it just it can't be done.
They have to ask you. And he said, so I'm
going to make sure that you are in their presence
for the next few weeks. And uh, we did a

(35:13):
gig with we were playing with Heart at the time,
the horn sections and they were opening for the Stones
and they did it in Denver and Bills Bill said,
I want you to come to the hospitality suite after
the show in the hotel and bring your horns, but
don't bring them in. And so we go okay, and

(35:34):
you know, and then we get there. We're in this hospitalize.
I mean there's fine wines and all this great food,
you know, records, supersound system and records they're playing, and
then before we know it, here comes Mick Jagger and
he comes in and starts talking. And I remember he
was really into Prince. Prince had just come up, and

(35:55):
we knew who Prince was because he recorded his first
record across the hall from us and saw the leto.
So he's asking me and do you know Prince you know?
And I'm like, yeah, we do. Actually, you know, he
was across all he actually took our second engineer and uh.
And he starts talking about that and we're getting along
and Bills over there going oh this is going good,

(36:15):
you know, and he says, uh, hey, he goes the
guys have their horns because uh, and he tells our
road he was with us, because uh, why don't you
go get the horns bring him up. I don't know
what he's thinking. Where we're gonna play the horns in
the hospitality sleep and uh. So he sends my roadie
down and we're all kind of feeling kind of awkward.

(36:36):
The next thing, we know, Mixed sort of stops talking
and he turns around and he kind of dances out
of the room backwards, and he was gone. And Bill goes, ah,
and messed up. I shouldn't have done that. You know.
We're like, what what what happened? And he goes that
that didn't feel right to him, you know, so when

(36:58):
I said to get the horns, that was I shouldn't
have done it. And so then he flew me to
San Diego, to Los Angeles and then finally and I'm
and I'm hanging out, you know, where the Rolling Stones are,
you know, and they're completely ignoring me. You know, I'm
not a real I'm not a real uh you know,

(37:18):
social person in terms of, you know, hey man, let's party,
you know kind of thing. I'm just hanging out, you know.
And of course, so they're there, you know, because what
he told me was he said, you have to understand
I think if you were like, you know, your face
was the most recognizable face in the entire world. Because
that's what these guys deal with on a daily basis.

(37:40):
And he goes so it has to be their idea
and blah blah blah, and I'm like, yeah, whatever, and
so I'm you know, Denvers and Diegos Angeles. Finally we
get to the Bay Area and uh, you know, I'm tired.
I've been hanging out nobody's asking me to do so,
you know, I'm kind of burnt out. And then but

(38:03):
I go to Candlestick Park and Bills like, you know,
he has to talk with Mick Jaggers. Look, you know,
don't you get it. I keep putting this guy in
your presence because I want the horns to play with
you that the greatest horn section in the world, you know,
and make a well yes, certainly, you know. And so
we're supposed to play Satisfaction and this is the first

(38:26):
night and h Keith Keith Richards wasn't there. And finally
he shows up late and he's sick, probably dopes it,
you know, and uh, it doesn't feel good. And he
comes in and we're in there, you know, um getting
ready and he's what's this, you know, and make a

(38:48):
top hard you're going to play with just not tonight,
And they canceled us and that was it for me.
That was a start book. I said, I'm out of here,
you know. And uh, but Doc, Doc and Keith Richards
they got along pretty good. And uh, Doc was devastated
because we were ready to go on, you know. And

(39:10):
so after the show, Bill Graham goes up to Keith
Richards because he knows that he likes Doc, and he goes, man,
I can't believe you did that, you know, and Keep
goes what and he says, you devastated that poor Gray
goes who you know, because Doc, because they were gonna
play man, it's a big deal. You know, it's wrong.

(39:32):
We'll do it tomorrow, you know. And so I wasn't there.
I had gone home when I was staying with my
father in law, and by then I'm trashed. Man, I'm done.
And I woke up the next morning. I remember my
father going, aren't you going to the stadium? I said, now,
heck with that, and I'm done. You know, I think
you should go. And so you got a cab went there.

(39:55):
And when I drive up in the cab, Bill Graham
is in there out in the park waiting for me
to get it in there they were rehearsing, and I
go into this trailer and the guys all got their
horns out and I'm getting my horn out and Keith
Richards looks at me and he goes, we're doing satisfaction.
Do you know the otis redding parts? You know? I go, yeah,

(40:18):
I think so. You know, we played this song a
million times, right, and so we started working it up
and they like it, so it's all it's all rage.
We're gonna go on for the uncle. So they play
their set and they have a like a little rolling
riser with five mikes for us, and we're behind this
scream you know where you can't see us, but we
can sort of see through it to the state, and

(40:40):
they're killing it, you know. And then the said ends
and they come off and we're getting already and Keith
Richards goes on to our riser and passes out. And
the next thing I know, uh, Bill Graham's on top
of him and funct him at the heart and he's
giving him up the mouth and he is not coming

(41:02):
to and I'm like, I can't even believe this. After
all this, this guy's gonna did die right here. And
the next thing I know, this guy comes up with
this black bag. It's obviously there doctor and shoots them
up with something than Keith Richards jumps up. He goes
Let's rock and they starts settisfaction, you know. And then

(41:26):
as soon as the beat kicks and we start going
Papa but that but little that, you know, we're nailing it.
And I remember that we got to the rideout and
Mick Jagger is loving it and he keeps looking at
us and they're going so he's stretching out the ride up. Well,
you know, in a soul band, you know, when the

(41:48):
ride is really kicking, the lead trumple player takes it
up and acted so Nick Gillette and he had great range,
you know, boom, he takes it up up. He's blood
and you know and mix less loving and I mean, uh,
Mick Jagger is loving it more and more and more.
So he's making it go longer and longer. He wants

(42:10):
getting redder and redder, you know, but he's making every note.
He's burning it and then finding the ends the tune
we had the last chord and Mick Jagger goes top
our horns and we're in San Francisco. They knew us
place perserved, you know, and uh, Bill Graham jumps on

(42:30):
my back. He's going you guys are the greatest words
of the world. He's going crazy. It was the most
incredible moment. Man, it's the adrenaline was unbelievable. Oh my goodness,
I can I can only imagine. I mean, I would have.
I was. One of my questions was I was gonna
ask you He's there a moment Of all the places
you play, people you played with, it is one that

(42:52):
stands out. But I imagine that's probably number one on
the list if I were to guess. We had a
lot of good moments, but that was one of the best.
Oh my goodness. I mean, it's such an incredible career.
I mean, and just just your sound is so I mean,
it's so distinct, that's so you. I mean, you've never

(43:13):
it's it's never had the change because it's perfect in
my opinion. I mean, I wanted to ask you me.
I know, you get asked to play uh so many
session dates with so many different bands, and I know
that a crucial component of your sort of agreeing to
do it is to use your own arranger. And I
wanted to ask you more about that, like, how do
how does that factor into as somebody who loves music

(43:34):
like I do, but and messes around on instruments. But
it is not a guy in the wool musician would
never call myself that. I want to know more about
the kind of role that that your ranger plays and
helping craft your your sound as a band. It's really
integral when you're doing session work for other artists that
you have in mind the fact that it's about the artist.

(43:57):
It's not about your orange or your arrangement. It's about
the artist. So whatever you put on that recording needs
to not get in the way. You know, whatever the
hook of the song is, you can't step on it
with the horn parts. If there's an incredible lead vocalist,
you don't step all over that vocal with your horn parts.

(44:17):
You know. If there's all these rock and roll bands
have these group down on not you know, you don't
step on that with horns because when you go to mix,
you know, you're trying to get the horns to STIs
stand out, But the guitar, who is the main guy
in the band, is going so you gotta make sure
he's hurt. And what you do, you can't hear the

(44:39):
horns at all, So you have to pick your spots
really carefully. And we had our horn ranger was Greg
Adams for about twenty five years, and he got that
way of arranging down to a science. You know. He
were really sparse arrangements when we did rock and roll bands,
you know. And but when we played it was during

(45:01):
the whole, you know, maybe right on the one or
you know, bat I had that whatever it was, it
was in the hole and they could mix it really
loud without covering up all the stars of the show,
you know. And that's really the key. And what I
find is when when I don't insist on having our arrangers,

(45:22):
we get hooked up with other people that don't realize that.
And for some reason, people seem to think that, especially
rock and roll people. They seem to think, if you
got sacks as well, you want to play low low
fish doo doo doo dude. You know. But as I said,
you've got three guitar players doing that, you know, so
why would you do that? You know? And we had that.

(45:46):
That situation happened on an Aerosmith record. Just push play.
If you listen to that recording, the song that we're on,
it's not existent, you know. And that's because they insisted
on using this arrange. I remember I told him, I said,
you know, it really works better if we do the arrangement. No. No,
our friend doesn't you know, he's arranged for Barbara Stress

(46:07):
and he's really a musician. But I go, Okay, when
are we gonna tell him? No, it's a Erros you know.
And uh, but you know, the arrangement just it wasn't
the type of arrangement that we do, and so when
they went to mix it, I couldn't really bring it up.
You know, this as though we're not on the record,
so we get the credit. You read the back of

(46:30):
the album Tower Power Horns, You're like, great, where are they?
You know? How about you? When you're writing, is this
something that you do every day or is it something
that really you have to be moved to do? Doc
writes every day. Doc carries a notebook with He's very passionate, right.
I I've always And it's interesting because you know, I
really make most of my money from my writing, you know,

(46:51):
but I put very little time into it. But you know,
like like we we had the pandemic, and uh, I
make appointments for people, you know, I have a few
people are write with, and sometimes I want to want
to write with somebody new, and I'll just say, you know,
how you doing Tuesday at eleven? You know, show up
and we write a song. In the old days, you know,
me and Doc lived together, and you know, there's a

(47:14):
lot of drug and alcohol use, so you're partying and
getting high. It's like, that's right, we start to write,
you know, but you know, now everybody's sober. You know,
I'll got families, I'll got homes, and so we will
make appointments. You know, well, show up and h We
always pray first, you know, that's the first thing we do.
And then we talk a little bit, you know, uh

(47:37):
what's going on? You know, I just kind of talk
and then if anybody's got a particular idea, I might
have a rhythm idea or a hook. Doc might have
a lyrical idea. You know, I might have a court progression,
or we'll just I'll just sort of start noodling around
and oh that's cool. You know, It's like it's like fishing.
You know, once you get a bite, then you really

(47:58):
did know. If if it's the book, then you want
to write a story in the first verse that leads
to it, and then after the first start, you want
to develop that story further in the second verse, and then,
you know, maybe you do the hook again, or maybe
you take a left turn to do what's called the bridge,
you know. And the bridge could be a musical bridge,

(48:19):
it could be a lyrical bridge. It could change chords completely,
or it could be the same chord, put a little
guitar thing over it, you know, but something that separates
that does sort of a left turn, and then back
to the hook or maybe half of a verse where
you developed the story a little more, even maybe with
a little extension on it, go to the hook and

(48:41):
then build the writer. This is probably a loaded question,
but do you think that songwriting is something that anyone
can do or is it something that you kind of
have to be born with in some ways? Well, I
don't know that you have to be born with it,
but no, it's not something anybody can do. That's what

(49:01):
I I I'm good. I feel a little better because
I've I've I've played a number of instruments since i
was a young teenager, and I've never been able to
write a song in my whole life. Try as I might,
it's never been something that uh happens to me to
write with people. And although during the pandemic, I wrote
a few songs by myself and that that was the

(49:22):
first I think. I just I like to bounce off
of people, you know. To me, it's just easier. Well
that was I was gonna ask you, are these songs
that you've been working on during the pandemic, are they
there a new album on the way or well I
want to do uh. You know, the last time we recorded, uh,
besides the live thing, we did two albums Soul Side

(49:47):
of Town, and then one came out called Step Up
during the pandemic, and we recorded all that material at once.
So I worked on it for like many years, you know,
and it was twenty eight songs, you know. So that's
a big project. But I mean it really paid off,
you know, and UH had a coesiveness. We had two

(50:08):
really great products with some bonus tracks that we could
use for Japan or Europe. It just worked out really well.
So I'd like to do the same thing, record two albums,
and I want to record a Christian album, you know.
I I became a Christian in two thousand and four,
and as a Christian, I started listening to gospel praise music,

(50:30):
and it's my opinion that all the great soul singers
are in the church. I'm a fan of Orlanda Adams,
Dietrich Hadden. I just love all these uh gospel praise
singers and their productions. Really contemporary, you know, Fred Hammond, Yeah, yeah,

(50:52):
you know. And so I want to do a Christian
album and a secular album, but I want to record
them all at once. Really cool. So that's the plan
right now at tentative, you know. But meanwhile, everybody's writing.
I've written a bunch docs, always writing, the guys right,

(51:13):
and when it's time to make the record, we'll listen
to everything, choose some songs and get don't know, I know,
you just got off the road, I think a matter
of days ago, But any any plans for heading back
out there soon? We were you know, we we We're
not a band that says I'm going on tour and
then you're you're off for a few months. We just

(51:33):
got a model time. So we did our first gig
at the Hollywood Bowl in August eight, and then we
flew across country. We had a couple of days off.
We flew across country and we did a little East
coast northeast run and then we came back and then
we went to the Bay Area, did some days, came back,
you know, so we kind of we do this little.

(51:54):
Sometimes there are three weeks, sometimes you're five days. Sometimes
it's a weekend. You know. Right now, I don't have
a gig for almost three weeks and then I go
out for I think six days. And that's how we
do it. We're just always in and out. And it's
usually two hundred days a year we're away from home.
And you know that that's not all gigs. It's travel

(52:17):
days and days off on the road. But at least
at least a hundred seventy gigs that still loving it.
Oh yeah, oh yeah, yeah people you know. Uh, I'm
also in the recovery community, you know, so a lot
of these people are the meetings that I attend. They

(52:39):
know what I do now, you know. And there was like, so, so,
how do it feel it feel good to get back? Yes,
it feels really cometable because we got back together. We
did we did the Hollywood Bowl and went up to
the East coasts and we were we located ourselves in Boston.
We went up to New Hampshire, did two gigs in
Boston and then went down to our Virginia and I

(53:01):
think it was about three days in. We were all
hanging out and uh, and Garibaldi goes, man, Yes, it's
amazing the way it comes back so quick, you know.
And we had rehearsed a couple of couple of days,
you know, but it's just right now. It just feels
so in the pocket. And uh, you know, I have
a great group of guys. I mean we are truly

(53:24):
friends and brothers, and uh, we support each other and
we miss each other, you know. So it's always great
to get back out there and got a great crew,
have great management. After all these years, you know, I've
I've learned how to hire well. I could say that again. Absolutely, Oh, Amelia,

(53:47):
thank you so much. I don't want to take up
too much more of your time, but it has been
such a joy and a pleasure talking to you. I
really and an honor he is in the ad. Thank
you so much for your time today and your music.
It really means a lot to me. Thank you ur
news my pleasure. We hope you enjoyed this episode of
Inside the Studio, a production of i heart Radio. For

(54:08):
more episodes of Inside the Studio or other fantastic shows,
check out the I heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or
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