November 23, 2022 • 43 mins
In the first installment of this two part episode, we’re joined by journalist and comedian Francesca Fiorentini to talk through the midterm elections and how online harassment keeps women from succeeding in elected office.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. I am
your host, Bridget Todd. I am enjoined with my lovely producer, Sophie. Hey, Sophie,
what's up, Hey, Bridget. How's it going? It is going well,
and I'm so, so so excited to be joined by Francesco.
If you're in TV correspondent, funny Lady, host of the
Situation Pod, the Twitteration Room on the Young Turk's News
(00:21):
broke on a J Plus, and New Mama Francesco. Thank
you so much for being here. I'm so excited. Anytime,
oh my god, talk to me about something else other
than nursing and sleep habits, just get me out of
that headspace. And I realized we might delve into something
far worse, and I'll be rushing back to want to
(00:43):
talk about nursing and all and spit up habits and
all that crap, all the all the things that babies
do exactly. We might be talking maybe about babies I
don't I don't know, or big babies. Yeah there there are,
so there are some grown man babies and the story. Yeah,
I mean that's what the show is about, right, just
(01:04):
people being massive babies on the Internet and speaking of
people being massive babies on the Internet. I have to
call out this tweet that you had that had me rolling,
uh elon must tweeted Twitter feels increasingly alive and you've
replied increasingly alive now that death threats are back. Absolutely.
I mean the real joke, I think is that it's
(01:24):
alive because we're all dunking on him just endlessly and
he's just trying to tweet through his entire failure. But yeah,
it's like, you know, the actual truth of it, and
this is something you speak to is that we're just
it's alive. He's the equivalent of alive is because now
no one is censored when they're trying to docks people
or harass them. Yeah, now an open season for hate
(01:49):
speech docs saying death threats, all the stuff that you
want to see you when you log into Twitter dot com.
That actually was something that I was surprised at. You know,
I know we're not going to necessarily go into the
whole old debacle, but that in order to get people
to get on stay on your platform, you it has
to be a place people want to be. And I
was reading some analysis and I was like, oh, yeah,
(02:10):
as much as I think something like Instagram makes me
obviously like it's a perpetual fomo and I feel terrible
about myself in different ways. It is also still a
place I want to be, And Ellen's got to make
Twitter a place people want to be who aren't just
white nationalists. Yeah, and I was reading about how only
a small percentage of power users on the platform, like
(02:33):
people who tweet regularly, like those are the folks who
really drive engagement, and so it does seem kind of
like Ellen is kind of his his first order of
business is kind of attacking those people and making sure
that they feel like Twitter is not a hospitable platform
for them to show up and like it's not like
any of us are getting paid to tweet. So after
a while, it's like, why am I going to continue
(02:54):
to show up here? Right? It's it's basically just too
again make fun of now the new owner. But that's it.
He needs to sweeten the pot for them and getting
folks to pay eight dollars a month for that, Like
that's not that's not it. It should be. Ah God,
my friend of mine suggested something, and I just have
(03:14):
to put this out there. But monetize Twitter by paying
to d m women paying Elan would be he would
be making so much money off Twitter overnight, right or
or even like lower lower the bar, not even, but
like to get so that you can see if they
(03:36):
read it or not sure exactly these different tiers, I
mean even replying to anybody, you know, the whole thing.
But it's like, oh God, if you want to troll
this person in their d M, you gotta pay fifty
dollars if there's gonna be like, you know, if you're
gonna say something about the way they look, you know,
a hundred dollars if you're gonna throw in like a
(03:57):
toots or a nobody says toots anymore. You know how
the Internet and trolls are all just like you know,
men in their eighties. Yeah, I love you, I love
the tweet. That's the voice that I that I read
all m Andrew Dice, Clay voice, Hickory Dickory Duck. Yeah
(04:21):
you look better without anyone under the age of thirty
is like, what are they saying, Andrew Dice? Who I
don't These are not current, These are not topical references.
But you know your point about you know, paying to harass,
paying to bother people actually does fit really clearly into
what I want to talk about today, And so far
(04:42):
on the podcast, we've talked about some examples of black
women and women of color who have been the target
of not so fun things on social media platforms. We've
talked about dongle Gate with a fear Richards, the end
Father's Day campaign on Twitter, and then coordinated attacks on
SNL actor Leslie Jones, And as horrific as these things are,
it's kind of easy to think of them as sort
(05:04):
of isolated incidents or things just happening on Twitter with
no real context playing out in the you know, the
real the I r L world, like the real world,
And so I wanted to spend a little bit of
time kind of connecting those dots on why all this
matters and why it matters beyond the folks who are
being targeted. And since we just had mid term elections,
I think taking a look at some of recent elections
(05:26):
and the experiences of elected officials will provide a really
good example for the real world consequences of having a
social media landscape ready and willing to amplify racist, sexist
attacks on black women and women of color. Is this
something that you've experienced as like a visible person on Twitter. Yes,
and no, I will say that. Um I what I
(05:46):
think that the online hate has done for me is
make me, um invisibilize myself deliberately, So say less, be
very very careful. And again, I'm a comic, you know,
and I and I am a pundit. I like to speak.
I love doing podcasts, I love doing you know, my
live show, the Bituation Room, all that. But it's when
(06:07):
it comes to just the world of Twitter, I am
much more on my p's and q's, and not in
a good way. So it's so ironic. We are being
trolled by you know, generally dudes and white dudes and
whatever cis het you keep adding to it, who are
constantly saying that they are being silenced, when in fact,
what they the ecosystem they create, actually just silences women,
(06:31):
people of color, marginalized folks, anyone who feels like they
are already targeted by systemic oppression. That's just it's sort
of a self imposed censorship. So and I hate that
about so. So No, I have not been deliberately targeted.
But also I don't stick at my neck out that much.
And I think that's a that's not good, you know,
(06:54):
but but yeah, I've been, you know, in multiple I
think it's also because I'm not like I'm next and
people are like, I don't know how to troll you.
What epithode do I use? Are exactly? Are you Chinese?
Are you Italian? Are you Latina? I don't know, damn it,
I'm gonna google it. Uh my Wikipedia pages all fucked
(07:15):
up to It's like I don't know if we can swear,
but I am my bad um. So it's just like
they I think my Wikipedia page says that I'm like
from Argentina, but I'm not. The point is it's funny
when you're not discernibly something. So people don't know how
to troll. I will say this to Year and I
know you did a whole episode on Leslie Jones thing.
(07:35):
I was at the r n C in t St. Milo, Napolis,
was going live for Bright Bart and my producers. The
people at a J Plus were like, yo, this is
the day after that Leslie Leslie Jones was I think
left Twitter was being trolled. Milow started it. They go, yo,
you should like say something to him, do something. So
(07:57):
on air we did our own little like rolling of him,
and I was like, you know, does it does all
this make you feel better that your mom never hugged
you as a child, you know, just like being raised
by the legends of Zelda like and I was something
about like I said, I think the first thing I
said to him was like, it's funny that you hate
black people because your heart is black, is what I said.
(08:18):
That's that's good. So yeah, so that was the man
stunned to speak. No he called me. He turns around, goes,
wouldn't mean nasty, you know, he goes, what a mean nasty,
skinny lesbian you are? And I was like, me's guinea things?
Oh my god. So I was also at that same
(08:38):
r n C. And I remember I was this is
a whole long story, but I was there as part
of a group who was meant to be getting like
like writing a piece about Milo. And I remember him
walking around like the press area and what a like
you could just you ever see somebody who you can
tell wants to have their presence be something that everybody
(09:00):
is talking about. And everybody was working, so nobody was like,
oh my god, there's Milo. Everybody was like, oh, what
is like this person just came in they clearly want
a scene, and everybody just went back to their their
laptops and it was kind of this, like I remember
just feeling like this is pathetic, Like this this is
like reminds me of when I was like when I
first got my driver's license and I would like get
(09:22):
in my car and drive by the school playing music
loud with sunglasses on and be like, I hope they
see me. I just felt I just felt very sad. Yeah, exactly. No, Yeah,
he definitely like plays. He has a little boom box
next to him and like plays. You know, I have
some kind of trumpet entrance, like has a little smoke
machine he wants that's in his mind, Like it goes
(09:44):
off when he walks in a room. You know what
I'm saying. My brain is on new Mom. I'm sorry, um,
but yeah, yeah, I know that he's a sad, sad
man and uh, I think got what he deserved. But
that's I know you went into that. Yeah, I mean
he talking about him is actually a great segue into
the idea that I think in so many of the
(10:05):
incidents that we have discussed, particularly around like Milo and
Leslie Jones, it's this idea that It really shows, in
my opinion, the way that a sort of disregard and
distrust of women, particularly women of color and black women,
it's kind of baked into our experience of being on
social media platforms. And if you've ever seen a right
wing figure attack of black woman who was basically just
(10:27):
minding her business like Leslie Jones was, and thought what's
going on? You know, when you see a right wing
figure randomly attack Lizzo or how like Trump would randomly
attack uh yeah, Signore April Ryan like right like women
of color, always you'd be thinking, like, why are they
doing this? Well, I would argue it's because it is
a tried and true engagement strategy. And when you apply
(10:48):
that to social media people who run platforms, they're not
really interested in sort of de incentivizing that because it's
a successful way to generate engagement, which means, you know,
more profit for them. And so basically I think that
attacking women of color is always going to be a
way to get to like fire up your base and
get engagement, and platforms are not interested in stopping this
(11:09):
or de incentivizing it because they are in on the grift. Yeah,
well that's sure. I mean it's amazing. Once again, this
this is the right. It loves to accuse the Left
of being triggered by something, and they the people you're naming,
the reason they triggered. They are the ones triggering the
right merely by their existence, the idea that black women
(11:34):
are excelling in journalism, in music, in something that otherwise
they wouldn't give a shit about. They don't know who
Lizzo is. Ben Shapiro doesn't know Lizzo is. But then
suddenly she's playing you know whoever the fox flute Jefferson?
Was it Jefferson? It was Jefferson. Yeah, just like so
(11:54):
Jefferson's flute um, which of course we all know she
should have smashed into a million pieces. Uh, and that's what. No,
she played it amazingly, And you're just like, this is
what I mean by identity politics still matter. I mean,
this is why I think a lot of us still
say it, because they's like, literally by their identity, by fote,
by black women just doing them. Suddenly this entire yeah,
(12:14):
machinery of algorithms and grift and money making is actually
just triggered and is set off, you know, and just
keeps on spinning and spinning and spinning and victimizing, I
would say, but honestly, like, these are also badass people
who I think it takes a lot more to bring
them down. But yeah, victimizing usually women of color and
black women specifically. Absolutely. My favorite tweet that I saw
(12:37):
about the Lizzo situation was when everybody was like, oh,
she played that flute. Lizzo should dig up the bones
of Jefferson and play his ribs like a xylophone. So
you're you're exactly right, And I've seen the exact same thing.
Disinformation researcher and the author of the great new book
Black Skinheads, and person who is a lot smarter than
(12:58):
me on these issues, Brandy dex Raclar. She explained it
very well in an interview with Janet Burns. She says,
social media as a sphere, because of its theatrical nature,
is where you will see the most profound attacks, and
on Twitter some of the most vicious attacks that are
being directed at black women, black leaders, and black activists.
It ends up getting laughed about on the now defunctor
Riley Factor and other shows. There's this freedom to attacked
(13:19):
and repeated validation of it, and everywhere we go we
see corporate or government gatekeepers who declined to intervene. So
I completely agree with her point. We have a media
landscape where attacking women of color and black women isn't
just okay, it's incentivized, and I think this is key.
When platforms allow racist, sexist attacks on black women and
women of color and do nothing, it normalizes this behavior
(13:43):
and it doesn't just say that it's okay, but it
says like this is just the cost of being a
visible black woman online. And even if it starts on
platforms like Twitter, I think it creates the conditions that
normalize the same kind of abuse to happen more broadly
out into the world, and also create a pathway for escalation,
Like if people don't do anything when you harass a
black woman or a woman of color online, you know,
(14:04):
bad actors will watch that response and be like, Okay, well,
I will reasonably conclude that I could take that behavior
offline too, And that's kind of really sad, because you know,
when we're talking about women and black women and women
of color who don't always get the support that we should,
people are not totally incorrect and assuming that they can
harass these women and escalate that harassment from the Internet
(14:27):
to the real world, and that people aren't going to
do anything because they're kind of right, and a lot
of instances, not a lot is done. Yeah, I mean
it's it's seen as like I think black women specifically
because of white supremacy, um, and the ways that like
your your identities are immediately politicized not by your not
(14:53):
by you, but by the by white supremacy and the
function of it and how it works. And so it's
like like I'm saying, folks mining their own business, women
just doing themselves is suddenly seen as like how dare
you attack me? And you're like, what are you talking about?
No one's attacking you. But it's and again this is
like some folks can go through the world and their
identities are not automatically politicized. They're not automatically seen as
(15:17):
like oh, it's like, um, I can't remember her name,
but there was this Asian American reporter who got a
phone call after she like talked about you know, what
she eats at Thanksgiving, right, and I think she's Korean,
and she was like someone called her and was like
your reporter was very Asian, you know, like I was
(15:37):
offended by how Asian your reporter was even just because
they mentioned that they don't eat turkey on things. Remember
that it would just the existence of her specific cultural thing. Yeah,
the mere existence your mirror. I am victimized by your
mere existence. Like God, white fragility is so so brittle
(15:59):
and exactly what it is, Michelle Lee. I believe, yes,
now selling very Asian merch and I love it. Um
but but so yeah, and and of course anything that
makes folks money is gonna That's why, I mean, I
know that your whole show just is going to end
in we need to nationalize and break up big tech.
(16:23):
Oh yeah, I mean I think it's that's a whole yeah, yes, yes, um.
But you know, when you're talking about sort of this
idea of women and people of color and black folks
just sort of being inherently politicized, this is something that
I really want to pull out because I talk a
lot about things like misinformation, disinformation, malinformation, all of that.
(16:44):
It's like my day job is like researching that. And
I think that what often gets lost are the ways
that these kinds of things are so often identity based, right,
and so ideas about you know, someone who is Chinese
American being foreign or you know not, you know not
doesn't belong here, or ideas about you know, black women
(17:05):
being angry or incompetent. I think that we so often
see identity based inaccurate information, and it's so much harder
to pull out and talk about, as opposed to disinformation
and misinformation around things like COVID or vaccines, where it's like, yeah,
most reasonable people are like, like, there's a baseline understanding
of you know, oh, this is inaccurate information. But when
(17:26):
it comes to identity, I think it's a little bit
harder to actually pull out and identify and talk about
because I don't know, talking about race and culture and
identity can be so fraught and difficult for our society.
I guess yeah, And you don't want to be overly
reductive in when you when you combat this, when you
combat hate as well, it's the same thing, I think,
(17:48):
and where we don't have to get into it all
but around our conversations about Kanye's anti semitism and how
to like properly and how to adequately combat it in
order to shut it down, But how much do you engage?
And that it's sticky because again, I think it's super
reductive to be like all black people are this, all
Jews are that, all Chinese Americans like just like it.
(18:10):
You how do we push back against stereotypes while also
understanding the like the heterogene when what's the word? Like
just how um not homogeneous? Heterogeneous? I don't have words anymore. Um,
I'm just gonna a SMR every time I don't know
my vote? Yeah, just how how like how much difference
(18:32):
there is in all of these communities exactly? And I
think it's one of the reasons why talking about it
is so difficult, because it's like, how do you make
room for the fact that no no group as a monolith.
You know, we there are nuances and like like we're
a gradient, like there's nuances in our communities, but we
(18:53):
still need to I believe it's still like very important
to have a clear united front against things like anti Semitism.
And I mean this is like a tangent, but like
with Kanye West, it troubles me that he can't see
that like when someone is being and this is my opinion,
when someone is being anti Semitic or you know, anti Asian, whatever,
(19:13):
it is a hot skipping away from anti blackness. That
ship is all linked and that train is never late.
And so like, if you, as a black person, are
engaging explicitly an anti semitism, do you not realize that
you're creating the conditions for that ship to come back
around on us. And like, all of our oppression is linked.
I believe firmly that our liberation is linked. And you
just got like when I see him doing that, I'm like,
(19:33):
can you not see the way that you are setting
yourself up to later be knocked down? People are gonna
be like, oh, we love that he's being anti Semitic. Good,
good good, And you know that's just giving folks more
thought or to slip in anti blackness. So like, what
the funk are you doing? Yes, oh my god, go
off and and like final, just like last thing on this,
they're super linked. The whole Sorrows myth right Sorrows is
(19:57):
a billionaire who is fill in the blank um helping
BLM defund the police, creating thugs out of inner city
black children. Like literally it's always linked. It's it's Jews
run stuff. And the running stuff inherently means they're flooding
(20:18):
our country with immigrants and they basically um help black
people vote and or like flooding our like voters electoral
system with like black votes, like Google straight up that
they're the orchestrators of the people of color. So it's
like so layered. Yeah, but it's again, I feel like
we have this, particularly on social media, we have this
(20:41):
climate that loves to flatten things out and strip things
of nuance and context. And I don't think that we
have I don't think that our platforms have the range
to allow for discussing things in the way they actually
need to be discussed, right Like social media platforms are
incentivize to amplify the most insidiary inflammatory nuance, lacking bs,
(21:05):
extremist stuff, and so I don't think our platforms are
largest communication platforms are really equipped for the level of
like conversation that we need to be having right now,
and not at all. It is like, say something reductive,
say it unapologetically and take out any kind of maybe
could be leading to perhaps you know, and just end
(21:29):
it with the period and you're done, and then you'll
get a million retweets and that's yeah, that's what wins.
People make money off of that, People get deals, and
I don't care which side of the spectrum you're on.
Just no room for nuanced, forgive no one, take no prisoners,
cancel everybody, and or troll everybody, and you will win
(21:51):
as social media. It's so funny that you put it
this way. I miss, I might going off the rails here.
I'm sorry. We can yeah, but you know we have
to talk about women in elections, female candidates. Correct, But
I just gonna say one thing like this is like
one of the reasons why I find myself showing up
less and less on social media platforms because I think
that you're exactly right. It's not even definitely extremists. Right
(22:14):
wing extremists are like the worst, are like the biggest
bad actors, but it certainly they are not the only
ones doing it. And I think even when it's not
something that is like politically charged, like I don't know
if you saw that woman who was tweeting about like,
oh I sure love sitting in my garden and everybody
was like boo, we hate who usedupid bitch? Like we
are incentivized to be our worst selves, and our worst
(22:34):
selves are what these algorithms amplify, and that has been
determined by study after a study like, it's not your
imagination when you bring hatefulness extremism. You know, two platforms,
platforms a boost that when you show up with nuance
or thoughtfulness, they do not. And so it's a real
word tremity, like, hey, I really love my garden. Now
(22:57):
funk your garden? Oh my god, how much do you
want to it? How much water are you wasting in
that beautiful garden of yours? You know that's it's always
you cannot be positive, sable, it's insufferable. And if you
are positive on like you know you do you take
a cute selfie on Instagram, haters be on following you.
(23:19):
Let me just be real, when you post out, you
post something you look cute unfollowed. Yeah, it's funny because
like I I think we're all just like really miserable
and we're showing up with a lot of misery on
exactly exactly. And I've actually even heard people be like, yeah,
don't bring your joy to social media. People will just
(23:41):
find a way to shoot on it. Agreed to take
that somewhere else, like your family. So let's talk about
a little bit about what we've been seeing in terms
of attacks on women of color and black women and
when it comes to elections and hold collected office. So
(24:03):
I want to get into a little bit of research first.
I'll breathe through this, but there's actually quite a big
body of work as of late around some of what
we'll be talking about today. So in this the Internationals
did a study that looked at abusive messages hurled at
a multi racial group of members of parliament, and they
found that Black Asian and minority ethnic women members of
parliament are impacted far more than their white colleagues. The
(24:23):
twenty black Asian and minority ethnic members of Parliament that
they that they looked at received almost half of the
abusive tweets, despite being almost eight times as many white
members of parliament. In the study, uh they also examined
abusive tweets targeted women journalists and politicians in both the
United States and the United Kingdom and found that black
women were eighty four percent more likely than white women
(24:44):
to be mentioned in abusive tweets. Over in the United States,
a report from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue found that
women of color candidates are targeted by the right on
social media at alarming rates. Abusive messages counted for more
than fifteen percent of those directed at every female all
maker analyze, compared to around five to ten of male candidates.
Women of color are particularly likely to be targeted. Rep
(25:06):
il Han Omar received the highest proportion of abusive messages
of all candidates, and AOC received the highest ratio of
abusive comments on Facebook. And this is like a specific
thing to women when they looked at male UH elected
officials who are people of colors, So like Corey Booker
or Tim Scott, who are both black, they received similar
(25:26):
levels of abuse to their white male candidates. However, the
attacks against them were more likely to be about race.
When you look at the way that men are targeted
for you know, problematic or you know negative tweets and
negative content, those tweets are much more likely to focus
on policy, right, So, like, I don't like your position
on this, I don't like your position on that. When
(25:47):
it comes to women, it's much more exactly to be
about their appearance or their general incompetence. Female Democrats received
ten times more abusive comments and their male counterparts on Facebook,
and Republican women got more than twice as many abusive
comments and Republican men and then lastly, the Center for
Democracy and Technology looked at congressional candidates in the US
(26:08):
and found that women of color candidates were the most
ectly to be targeted with the posts that combined miss
and disinformation and abuse. Women of color were at least
five times more likely than other candidates to be targeted
with tweets related to their identity and focus specifically on
their gender and their race. UM, I have to ask you,
does any of this surprise you? No, not at all,
(26:29):
not not in the slightest. And this is why I
always say I think it's important to harass Republican men
based on their looks. I just you know, I I
don't know. I don't. I can't solve any of this.
I can't solve sexism, patriarchy, white supremacy overnight. But I
can troll Matt Gates for his five head or troll
(26:52):
Mitch McConnell for looking like an uncircumcised chode, you know,
like I can. That's what I think we need to
do more of, and that's how I want to level
the playing field. I completely agree. The proudest moment I
had in the last couple of months was that video
of Ted Cruise at a Yankees game and then the
crowd just screaming at him. Remember when Trump called your
(27:13):
wife ugly fuck it? I was like, Oh, that's the
America that I'm proud of, and she no, But I think,
you know, like, yeah, Ted Cruise, I mean this is
I used to get in trouble for when I had
like a news comedy show on a J Plus. They
were like, you should criticize Ted Cruise more on his look,
I mean, sorry, more in his substance, And I was like, yeah,
(27:36):
but he does look like he's holding a bunch of
like little hatchlings of like baby salamanders in his mouth
at all times, you know what I mean. He's just
he looks like you know, and he himself looks like
a bat. Like He's just I need to be able
to say that in the same breath that I'm like yes,
And he also demonizes immigrants and wants to you know,
(27:57):
privatize medicare all those kinds of things. Two things can
be true at once, But I always catch myself because
of course I like to make fun of Marjorie Tayler Green,
you know, um, but am I equally applying that critique
to these other hateful bastards as well. I mean, it's
a great question. I feel like if the research has
(28:18):
anything to be to be looked at like most people are.
When they see a woman, it's like you're an ugly skank,
blah blah blah, and when you see a man it's
like it's I would like to see a world where,
I mean, I don't know that we're ever gonna get
to a place where women are not insulted for their
looks and things they can't control. Why why why can't
(28:38):
Ted Cruz be take take one for his looks, you know,
more than one preferably. And then I think there's always
like Republican generally written large. If a woman is like
made fun of, like Sarah how Colbe Sanders um at
the White House Press Correspondence Dinner by Michelle Wolf, suddenly
(28:59):
they're like, you mean, do that, but AOC is a
Latino with a big gass, and we all know that
she's having anchor babies, you know, like whatever in the
same breath, and they'll be like, how dare you make
fun of Sarah copy Sanders his eyeshadow. She's just a woman.
But they do not apply that at all. Obviously the
(29:20):
other side. I mean, come on, and this is why,
like AOC when she openly speaks about how she gets
these death threats that are very sexual in nature and
also like really charged with that that disgusting like amalgamation
of both being attracted to and then also hating hatefulness
towards her, the vin Tucker Carlson will straight up a
(29:41):
dedicated half an hour segment to be like, Oh, do
you think people want to poke you? I mean, we
do want to poke you, but we don't what we do.
But whatever you're growsing you we girl that grows like
he it's and you're like, you're proving our point, homie.
Are you suggesting that these people are disingenuous? Yeah, Tucker Carlson.
(30:01):
I mean I could do a whole episode on the
way that he coordinates these attacks on women. And then
when the women are like actually, like when they just
are honest about them, he's like, oh, like, it's exactly
what you said. And it's so clear that everyone knows
what's going on. But the only reason that he's able
to get away with minimizing what we can all see
(30:23):
is these like super weird, sexually charged attacks is because
he's not we're not we're not talking honestly about them
as a society, Like like the women who are targeted
aren't really able to speak about them openly, and when
they do, their attacked, and so it's allows for this
vibe or like it's happening, we all see it happening,
we're not talking about it happening. People like Tucker Carlson
(30:43):
can be actively engaged in it happening and like do
make it happen and then go on TV and be
like what are you talking about? And you know exactly, Yeah,
Santa Claus doesn't exist, but like make sure to put
the cookies out every single Christmas. Like it's just like
you're straight up talking, you're make You're willing it into existence.
(31:05):
And AOC to her credit and Ilhano mar to a
lesser extent, I think obviously being a Muslim American woman
like she is targeted because of that as well wearing
a job, but AOC is actually able to talk about
it and be like, yo, there, it is sexual in
nature and that doesn't mean that I'm thirsty for that
attention at all. And then Republicans are like, oh, she's
(31:28):
like no, and I think that's because we are definitely
taught to like when there is a tinge of like,
and especially if someone is attractive, he's attractive, you know,
we're taught to like not um or as women online
like m hmm. Don't don't discuss or bring up the
fact that someone is targeting you in a sexual manner,
(31:49):
because it will almost feel like you're bringing it on
yourself because you're left, do you know what I mean?
And the are you wearing type of way? I know
exactly what you mean, where it's this weird trap of
like if you even acknowledge the fact that it's happening,
the idea, the impression is that you're playing into it,
or that maybe you want it, or it's a two
(32:11):
way street, or like you're you're you're enticing it in
some way, and so that it's one of the reasons
why talking about harassment, especially when it's kind of sexually
charged or sexually tinged, is so difficult because nobody wants
this insinuation that you're that you're getting off on it
or inviting it or wanting it. But I think, I mean,
it's hard to talk about, but I think it's especially
(32:31):
true when you're talking about like young conventionally attractive women.
I think that like men does don't know what to do.
It's like they look like they get can they like
they hate them, but they're aroused. It's like, I think
something happens where they don't know how to handle it.
It comes out as this like incredibly weird, sexually tinged harassment,
(32:52):
And if she even acknowledges the reality of it, then
it's like, oh, well, she must want it, she likes
the attention. Like and I think it really goes back
to this idea that I want to combat in this
episode that like women who run for public office or
women who choose to be visible. So even if you're
not running for public office, if you are an activist,
or if you are a pundit, or you're somebody who
you know builds a platform on Twitter, because you are
(33:15):
building up this profile, Like I feel like that comes
along with a kind of suspicion that you are a
woman who wants power. You're a woman who wants visibility.
You're a woman who wants eyes on her. Therefore you
deserve whatever you get. It comes with it comes with
the territory of showing up in that way and if
you did, if you didn't really want that kind of sexualized,
charred harassment and attention, you would be in the shadows.
(33:38):
You would not be a public figure, you would not
be running for office, you would be completely offline. If
it's no one, no one applies that. No one applies
that to men. Although we all know Ted Cruz very
much gets off on being trolled, so she actually is
aroused and is inviting it and wants you to dunk
(34:01):
on him. It gets him whoa things that I don't
want to imagine. So everyone just know that every time
you're gonna tweet, bagoted Cruise or make fun of him,
that it only makes him stronger, you know where. So yeah, yes,
it is. Yeah. So one of the important things to
(34:26):
remember is that the point of all of this, all
of these like racist, sexist attacks on women and women
of color in the public eye. It's it's particularly for
who are running for office or holding an elected office.
It's meant to take all of the oxygen out of
the room and have the thing that takes up the
most base, be the racism or the sexism or the
sexualization or whatever. And a great example is Kamala Harris.
(34:48):
Now I should say, I am no big fan of
Harris when she was running for president. I had major
issues with her record, you know. But when she was
named as Biden's vice presidential pick, she based a way
aave of like, racist, misogynistic, sexually charged attacks, including these
like explicit and unplicit suggestions that she is untrustworthy, too emotional,
(35:09):
or unqualified, according to The New York Times false. And
then this leading information about Harris spiked online on on
TV as soon as she was named as the vice
presidential pick. The activity jumped from two dozen mentions per
hour during the recent week to over three thousand, two
hundred per hour when she was named. This is according
to a company called Signal And so there's something very
specific about the attacks on her. I'm gonna put a
(35:31):
link in the chat to an image or actually, Sophie's
got it, super producer, So what tell me? Tell me
what your reaction to this image here? It's pretty upsetting,
h is those the legs? Those are those are white
women legs. Oh, it's a very sloppy photo, I should
(35:54):
probably describe it's a very spy photoshop job of Harris
on her back with a pair of obviously like white
women's legs in heels up. It says, get her done, Kamala,
heals up Harris for the people. She's got a little
speech bubble where she is saying to be VP. Sure
I will. And so the insinuation is that she is
(36:16):
having sex with someone in order to become the vice
presidential pick. Yeah, it's a terrible photoshop job. It's clearly
the legs of a white woman. It's like not she
doesn't even wear shoes like that. Um, but yeah, I mean,
but I think more than that. I mean, obviously those
shoes look really painful number one to walk in. But
more than that, it is very jarring to see someone,
(36:38):
a public figure who is deserving of a minimal amount
of respect, to be portrayed in this way. Um, so disgustingly.
And um it's the same when like, you know, I
was no big fan of Hillary Clinton, but watching seeing
all those shirts that are like you know, Hillary swallows,
like that shirt people are selling, Like what the fuck
(37:00):
you know, like Hillary, why why are you selling this?
Like I understand, like go back to lock her up?
And this is it's that same thing, like no matter
how far you get, we can always photos like we're
always imagining you like fucking your way to the top,
Like we're all be your only reduced to the fact
that you are a woman. Exact criticize her record, this
(37:23):
is like so juvenile and disgusting, right, and so like,
I mean, it's it's one of those things. So, so
this is the common trope with Harris, Like if you
google the phrase heels up Harris, that was like a
common attack on her, is that this idea that she
slept quote slipt her way to the top. And it's
a bit like the attacks on Ghostbusters that we talked
(37:44):
about last episode, where the whole conversation gets flattened out
and becomes people taking sides and nobody is just like
talking about the merit of the movie, right, And so
when it comes to Harris, you know, people are lobbying
these incredible, incredibly like set realized attacks on her because
she is a woman of color, and then people watching
(38:05):
they I kind of understandably feel like they have to
support her. And so Harris has an incredibly like robust
online network of supporters who will like pervently pushed back
against any and all criticisms of her online. And so
the ability to just have an honest, accurate conversation about
her record, her merit, her acts, her actual actions gets
(38:25):
totally lost in the noise intention. And then it's I
think precisely the point nobody can talk about her actual record,
whether or not she's fit for office whatever, when you
introduce these kinds of like sexist, racist, gross attacks. And
so I would say, like, even if you're somebody who
you know doesn't like Harris, doesn't think that she is,
(38:47):
you know, should have didn't think she made it a president,
doesn't make she makes a good vice presidential candidate, I
feel like you should be invested in making sure the
conversation does not rely and traffic in these sexist smears
and tropes, because you should want to be having space
to talk about her actual record. But when these are
introduced into the conversation, we don't really get that. I mean,
(39:08):
look at how effectively it worked in twenty six seen
against Hillary Clinton. As I was mentioning before, I mean,
it is again absent of like put the record aside.
We've seen the way women in public spaces have been
completely torn down. And this is why I mean, I
will say we can't have nice things, and by nice things,
(39:28):
I mean a first female president a um, you know,
vice president of color, like I mean, which we do have,
but like by you know, it's a thin we're we're
we're treading very lightly here. And if Kamala Harris does
run for president one day again, this will only get
worse and worse and worse and focus on all side
(39:49):
of the political spectrum. And I'm a huge Bernie bro
Like I do not like Hillary Clinton or Kamala Harris
for that matter, but my god, I understand how these
things are weaponized against them to tear them down. And
what's fucked is that it is conflated with their record
rather than separated. It is automatically conflated so that people
(40:11):
who whose politics I disagree with, you know, maybe someone
from the k hive who's like, you know, yeah, I
think we need more cops like kamally like like that
that I will get accused of racism or sexism when
I'm bringing up a substantive point um. And that is
the way that I think identity politics can be weaponized
in a cynical and way by liberals. You know, Yeah,
(40:35):
I find myself, it's I find myself having to defend women,
particularly women of color whose politics I don't align with
Time and time again where I'm like, how can we
just talk about but they're so well, some of these people,
there's so much to dislike, there's so much to pull apart.
We really don't have to talk about the way she looks.
We really don't have to rely on like sexist tropes
(40:57):
about any of this. Like there's for a lot of
these people, they're so much substance there to talk about.
Why are you cheapening the conversation by introducing this stuff?
And we it's like, if you if you're someone who
doesn't like these figures, you should be investing and having
a real conversation about their actual records so that like
we can actually air it out when you introduce these
(41:18):
kinds of like this garbage. People aren't doing that because
that is like the point of these attacks. They just
take up so much room and then you're defending it,
and then and then people are defending them, and like
you lose, you lose the thread of like well what
do we act like what is this person's actual record?
What is our actual merit? Completely so I obviously had
a ton to say about this topic, so much that
(41:40):
we actually needed to do an additional episode. So this
is just part one of Francesca, Sophie and My exploration
into the ways that online abuse and harassment can keep
women out of elected office, create barriers to their success
once they get there, and overall crtail speech and civic participation.
We'll be talking more in depth about specific women of
their political candidates and the campaigns of harassment that they
(42:03):
had to endure once they got into public office. In
the meantime, here's Baltimore States Attorney Marylyn Moseby talking about
her experience as a black woman and left official. You know,
it can be overwhelming, and I think my kids more recently,
I would say, in the past year or so, I
have seen me understress. And so for the first time,
my baby said, Mommy, I don't want to be a
politician anymore. And I'm like, why, why don't you want
(42:25):
to be a politician? Like what? What? Now? She's like,
I don't want them to treat me the way he
treat you. So that brought it tear to my eye.
But other than that, I'm like, baby, they will only
treat you like that when you stand for what's right,
and that's what comes with trying to change systems and
if mommy is gonna be fine. But this this comes
with the territory. You have to have courage enough to
(42:47):
know that you're doing the right thing. As long as
you're doing the right thing, people are always going to
come for you. Not only are these stories heartbreaking, but
they also demonstrate how online harassment and abuse keeps us
from having the healthy democracy that we deserve. There is
so much to say about this, so please, please please
tune in to part two of our exploration of black
women political candidates, online harassment and abuse and why it's
(43:10):
the problem for all of us. Internet Hate Machine is
a production of cool Zone Media. More podcasts from cool
Zone Media, check out our website cool zone media dot com,
or find us on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Welcome to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. I am
your host, Bridget Todd. I am enjoined with my lovely producer, Sophie. Hey, Sophie,
what's up, Hey, Bridget. How's it going? It is going well,
and I'm so, so so excited to be joined by Francesco.
If you're in TV correspondent, funny Lady, host of the
Situation Pod, the Twitteration Room on the Young Turk's News
(00:21):
broke on a J Plus, and New Mama Francesco. Thank
you so much for being here. I'm so excited. Anytime,
oh my god, talk to me about something else other
than nursing and sleep habits, just get me out of
that headspace. And I realized we might delve into something
far worse, and I'll be rushing back to want to
(00:43):
talk about nursing and all and spit up habits and
all that crap, all the all the things that babies
do exactly. We might be talking maybe about babies I
don't I don't know, or big babies. Yeah there there are,
so there are some grown man babies and the story. Yeah,
I mean that's what the show is about, right, just
(01:04):
people being massive babies on the Internet and speaking of
people being massive babies on the Internet. I have to
call out this tweet that you had that had me rolling,
uh elon must tweeted Twitter feels increasingly alive and you've
replied increasingly alive now that death threats are back. Absolutely.
I mean the real joke, I think is that it's
(01:24):
alive because we're all dunking on him just endlessly and
he's just trying to tweet through his entire failure. But yeah,
it's like, you know, the actual truth of it, and
this is something you speak to is that we're just
it's alive. He's the equivalent of alive is because now
no one is censored when they're trying to docks people
or harass them. Yeah, now an open season for hate
(01:49):
speech docs saying death threats, all the stuff that you
want to see you when you log into Twitter dot com.
That actually was something that I was surprised at. You know,
I know we're not going to necessarily go into the
whole old debacle, but that in order to get people
to get on stay on your platform, you it has
to be a place people want to be. And I
was reading some analysis and I was like, oh, yeah,
(02:10):
as much as I think something like Instagram makes me
obviously like it's a perpetual fomo and I feel terrible
about myself in different ways. It is also still a
place I want to be, And Ellen's got to make
Twitter a place people want to be who aren't just
white nationalists. Yeah, and I was reading about how only
a small percentage of power users on the platform, like
(02:33):
people who tweet regularly, like those are the folks who
really drive engagement, and so it does seem kind of
like Ellen is kind of his his first order of
business is kind of attacking those people and making sure
that they feel like Twitter is not a hospitable platform
for them to show up and like it's not like
any of us are getting paid to tweet. So after
a while, it's like, why am I going to continue
(02:54):
to show up here? Right? It's it's basically just too
again make fun of now the new owner. But that's it.
He needs to sweeten the pot for them and getting
folks to pay eight dollars a month for that, Like
that's not that's not it. It should be. Ah God,
my friend of mine suggested something, and I just have
(03:14):
to put this out there. But monetize Twitter by paying
to d m women paying Elan would be he would
be making so much money off Twitter overnight, right or
or even like lower lower the bar, not even, but
like to get so that you can see if they
(03:36):
read it or not sure exactly these different tiers, I
mean even replying to anybody, you know, the whole thing.
But it's like, oh God, if you want to troll
this person in their d M, you gotta pay fifty
dollars if there's gonna be like, you know, if you're
gonna say something about the way they look, you know,
a hundred dollars if you're gonna throw in like a
(03:57):
toots or a nobody says toots anymore. You know how
the Internet and trolls are all just like you know,
men in their eighties. Yeah, I love you, I love
the tweet. That's the voice that I that I read
all m Andrew Dice, Clay voice, Hickory Dickory Duck. Yeah
(04:21):
you look better without anyone under the age of thirty
is like, what are they saying, Andrew Dice? Who I
don't These are not current, These are not topical references.
But you know your point about you know, paying to harass,
paying to bother people actually does fit really clearly into
what I want to talk about today, And so far
(04:42):
on the podcast, we've talked about some examples of black
women and women of color who have been the target
of not so fun things on social media platforms. We've
talked about dongle Gate with a fear Richards, the end
Father's Day campaign on Twitter, and then coordinated attacks on
SNL actor Leslie Jones, And as horrific as these things are,
it's kind of easy to think of them as sort
(05:04):
of isolated incidents or things just happening on Twitter with
no real context playing out in the you know, the
real the I r L world, like the real world,
And so I wanted to spend a little bit of
time kind of connecting those dots on why all this
matters and why it matters beyond the folks who are
being targeted. And since we just had mid term elections,
I think taking a look at some of recent elections
(05:26):
and the experiences of elected officials will provide a really
good example for the real world consequences of having a
social media landscape ready and willing to amplify racist, sexist
attacks on black women and women of color. Is this
something that you've experienced as like a visible person on Twitter. Yes,
and no, I will say that. Um I what I
(05:46):
think that the online hate has done for me is
make me, um invisibilize myself deliberately, So say less, be
very very careful. And again, I'm a comic, you know,
and I and I am a pundit. I like to speak.
I love doing podcasts, I love doing you know, my
live show, the Bituation Room, all that. But it's when
(06:07):
it comes to just the world of Twitter, I am
much more on my p's and q's, and not in
a good way. So it's so ironic. We are being
trolled by you know, generally dudes and white dudes and
whatever cis het you keep adding to it, who are
constantly saying that they are being silenced, when in fact,
what they the ecosystem they create, actually just silences women,
(06:31):
people of color, marginalized folks, anyone who feels like they
are already targeted by systemic oppression. That's just it's sort
of a self imposed censorship. So and I hate that
about so. So No, I have not been deliberately targeted.
But also I don't stick at my neck out that much.
And I think that's a that's not good, you know,
(06:54):
but but yeah, I've been, you know, in multiple I
think it's also because I'm not like I'm next and
people are like, I don't know how to troll you.
What epithode do I use? Are exactly? Are you Chinese?
Are you Italian? Are you Latina? I don't know, damn it,
I'm gonna google it. Uh my Wikipedia pages all fucked
(07:15):
up to It's like I don't know if we can swear,
but I am my bad um. So it's just like
they I think my Wikipedia page says that I'm like
from Argentina, but I'm not. The point is it's funny
when you're not discernibly something. So people don't know how
to troll. I will say this to Year and I
know you did a whole episode on Leslie Jones thing.
(07:35):
I was at the r n C in t St. Milo, Napolis,
was going live for Bright Bart and my producers. The
people at a J Plus were like, yo, this is
the day after that Leslie Leslie Jones was I think
left Twitter was being trolled. Milow started it. They go, yo,
you should like say something to him, do something. So
(07:57):
on air we did our own little like rolling of him,
and I was like, you know, does it does all
this make you feel better that your mom never hugged
you as a child, you know, just like being raised
by the legends of Zelda like and I was something
about like I said, I think the first thing I
said to him was like, it's funny that you hate
black people because your heart is black, is what I said.
(08:18):
That's that's good. So yeah, so that was the man
stunned to speak. No he called me. He turns around, goes,
wouldn't mean nasty, you know, he goes, what a mean nasty,
skinny lesbian you are? And I was like, me's guinea things?
Oh my god. So I was also at that same
(08:38):
r n C. And I remember I was this is
a whole long story, but I was there as part
of a group who was meant to be getting like
like writing a piece about Milo. And I remember him
walking around like the press area and what a like
you could just you ever see somebody who you can
tell wants to have their presence be something that everybody
(09:00):
is talking about. And everybody was working, so nobody was like,
oh my god, there's Milo. Everybody was like, oh, what
is like this person just came in they clearly want
a scene, and everybody just went back to their their
laptops and it was kind of this, like I remember
just feeling like this is pathetic, Like this this is
like reminds me of when I was like when I
first got my driver's license and I would like get
(09:22):
in my car and drive by the school playing music
loud with sunglasses on and be like, I hope they
see me. I just felt I just felt very sad. Yeah, exactly. No, Yeah,
he definitely like plays. He has a little boom box
next to him and like plays. You know, I have
some kind of trumpet entrance, like has a little smoke
machine he wants that's in his mind, Like it goes
(09:44):
off when he walks in a room. You know what
I'm saying. My brain is on new Mom. I'm sorry, um,
but yeah, yeah, I know that he's a sad, sad
man and uh, I think got what he deserved. But
that's I know you went into that. Yeah, I mean
he talking about him is actually a great segue into
the idea that I think in so many of the
(10:05):
incidents that we have discussed, particularly around like Milo and
Leslie Jones, it's this idea that It really shows, in
my opinion, the way that a sort of disregard and
distrust of women, particularly women of color and black women,
it's kind of baked into our experience of being on
social media platforms. And if you've ever seen a right
wing figure attack of black woman who was basically just
(10:27):
minding her business like Leslie Jones was, and thought what's
going on? You know, when you see a right wing
figure randomly attack Lizzo or how like Trump would randomly
attack uh yeah, Signore April Ryan like right like women
of color, always you'd be thinking, like, why are they
doing this? Well, I would argue it's because it is
a tried and true engagement strategy. And when you apply
(10:48):
that to social media people who run platforms, they're not
really interested in sort of de incentivizing that because it's
a successful way to generate engagement, which means, you know,
more profit for them. And so basically I think that
attacking women of color is always going to be a
way to get to like fire up your base and
get engagement, and platforms are not interested in stopping this
(11:09):
or de incentivizing it because they are in on the grift. Yeah,
well that's sure. I mean it's amazing. Once again, this
this is the right. It loves to accuse the Left
of being triggered by something, and they the people you're naming,
the reason they triggered. They are the ones triggering the
right merely by their existence, the idea that black women
(11:34):
are excelling in journalism, in music, in something that otherwise
they wouldn't give a shit about. They don't know who
Lizzo is. Ben Shapiro doesn't know Lizzo is. But then
suddenly she's playing you know whoever the fox flute Jefferson?
Was it Jefferson? It was Jefferson. Yeah, just like so
(11:54):
Jefferson's flute um, which of course we all know she
should have smashed into a million pieces. Uh, and that's what. No,
she played it amazingly, And you're just like, this is
what I mean by identity politics still matter. I mean,
this is why I think a lot of us still
say it, because they's like, literally by their identity, by fote,
by black women just doing them. Suddenly this entire yeah,
(12:14):
machinery of algorithms and grift and money making is actually
just triggered and is set off, you know, and just
keeps on spinning and spinning and spinning and victimizing, I
would say, but honestly, like, these are also badass people
who I think it takes a lot more to bring
them down. But yeah, victimizing usually women of color and
black women specifically. Absolutely. My favorite tweet that I saw
(12:37):
about the Lizzo situation was when everybody was like, oh,
she played that flute. Lizzo should dig up the bones
of Jefferson and play his ribs like a xylophone. So
you're you're exactly right, And I've seen the exact same thing.
Disinformation researcher and the author of the great new book
Black Skinheads, and person who is a lot smarter than
(12:58):
me on these issues, Brandy dex Raclar. She explained it
very well in an interview with Janet Burns. She says,
social media as a sphere, because of its theatrical nature,
is where you will see the most profound attacks, and
on Twitter some of the most vicious attacks that are
being directed at black women, black leaders, and black activists.
It ends up getting laughed about on the now defunctor
Riley Factor and other shows. There's this freedom to attacked
(13:19):
and repeated validation of it, and everywhere we go we
see corporate or government gatekeepers who declined to intervene. So
I completely agree with her point. We have a media
landscape where attacking women of color and black women isn't
just okay, it's incentivized, and I think this is key.
When platforms allow racist, sexist attacks on black women and
women of color and do nothing, it normalizes this behavior
(13:43):
and it doesn't just say that it's okay, but it
says like this is just the cost of being a
visible black woman online. And even if it starts on
platforms like Twitter, I think it creates the conditions that
normalize the same kind of abuse to happen more broadly
out into the world, and also create a pathway for escalation,
Like if people don't do anything when you harass a
black woman or a woman of color online, you know,
(14:04):
bad actors will watch that response and be like, Okay, well,
I will reasonably conclude that I could take that behavior
offline too, And that's kind of really sad, because you know,
when we're talking about women and black women and women
of color who don't always get the support that we should,
people are not totally incorrect and assuming that they can
harass these women and escalate that harassment from the Internet
(14:27):
to the real world, and that people aren't going to
do anything because they're kind of right, and a lot
of instances, not a lot is done. Yeah, I mean
it's it's seen as like I think black women specifically
because of white supremacy, um, and the ways that like
your your identities are immediately politicized not by your not
(14:53):
by you, but by the by white supremacy and the
function of it and how it works. And so it's
like like I'm saying, folks mining their own business, women
just doing themselves is suddenly seen as like how dare
you attack me? And you're like, what are you talking about?
No one's attacking you. But it's and again this is
like some folks can go through the world and their
identities are not automatically politicized. They're not automatically seen as
(15:17):
like oh, it's like, um, I can't remember her name,
but there was this Asian American reporter who got a
phone call after she like talked about you know, what
she eats at Thanksgiving, right, and I think she's Korean,
and she was like someone called her and was like
your reporter was very Asian, you know, like I was
(15:37):
offended by how Asian your reporter was even just because
they mentioned that they don't eat turkey on things. Remember
that it would just the existence of her specific cultural thing. Yeah,
the mere existence your mirror. I am victimized by your
mere existence. Like God, white fragility is so so brittle
(15:59):
and exactly what it is, Michelle Lee. I believe, yes,
now selling very Asian merch and I love it. Um
but but so yeah, and and of course anything that
makes folks money is gonna That's why, I mean, I
know that your whole show just is going to end
in we need to nationalize and break up big tech.
(16:23):
Oh yeah, I mean I think it's that's a whole yeah, yes, yes, um.
But you know, when you're talking about sort of this
idea of women and people of color and black folks
just sort of being inherently politicized, this is something that
I really want to pull out because I talk a
lot about things like misinformation, disinformation, malinformation, all of that.
(16:44):
It's like my day job is like researching that. And
I think that what often gets lost are the ways
that these kinds of things are so often identity based, right,
and so ideas about you know, someone who is Chinese
American being foreign or you know not, you know not
doesn't belong here, or ideas about you know, black women
(17:05):
being angry or incompetent. I think that we so often
see identity based inaccurate information, and it's so much harder
to pull out and talk about, as opposed to disinformation
and misinformation around things like COVID or vaccines, where it's like, yeah,
most reasonable people are like, like, there's a baseline understanding
of you know, oh, this is inaccurate information. But when
(17:26):
it comes to identity, I think it's a little bit
harder to actually pull out and identify and talk about
because I don't know, talking about race and culture and
identity can be so fraught and difficult for our society.
I guess yeah, And you don't want to be overly
reductive in when you when you combat this, when you
combat hate as well, it's the same thing, I think,
(17:48):
and where we don't have to get into it all
but around our conversations about Kanye's anti semitism and how
to like properly and how to adequately combat it in
order to shut it down, But how much do you engage?
And that it's sticky because again, I think it's super
reductive to be like all black people are this, all
Jews are that, all Chinese Americans like just like it.
(18:10):
You how do we push back against stereotypes while also
understanding the like the heterogene when what's the word? Like
just how um not homogeneous? Heterogeneous? I don't have words anymore. Um,
I'm just gonna a SMR every time I don't know
my vote? Yeah, just how how like how much difference
(18:32):
there is in all of these communities exactly? And I
think it's one of the reasons why talking about it
is so difficult, because it's like, how do you make
room for the fact that no no group as a monolith.
You know, we there are nuances and like like we're
a gradient, like there's nuances in our communities, but we
(18:53):
still need to I believe it's still like very important
to have a clear united front against things like anti Semitism.
And I mean this is like a tangent, but like
with Kanye West, it troubles me that he can't see
that like when someone is being and this is my opinion,
when someone is being anti Semitic or you know, anti Asian, whatever,
(19:13):
it is a hot skipping away from anti blackness. That
ship is all linked and that train is never late.
And so like, if you, as a black person, are
engaging explicitly an anti semitism, do you not realize that
you're creating the conditions for that ship to come back
around on us. And like, all of our oppression is linked.
I believe firmly that our liberation is linked. And you
just got like when I see him doing that, I'm like,
(19:33):
can you not see the way that you are setting
yourself up to later be knocked down? People are gonna
be like, oh, we love that he's being anti Semitic. Good,
good good, And you know that's just giving folks more
thought or to slip in anti blackness. So like, what
the funk are you doing? Yes, oh my god, go
off and and like final, just like last thing on this,
they're super linked. The whole Sorrows myth right Sorrows is
(19:57):
a billionaire who is fill in the blank um helping
BLM defund the police, creating thugs out of inner city
black children. Like literally it's always linked. It's it's Jews
run stuff. And the running stuff inherently means they're flooding
(20:18):
our country with immigrants and they basically um help black
people vote and or like flooding our like voters electoral
system with like black votes, like Google straight up that
they're the orchestrators of the people of color. So it's
like so layered. Yeah, but it's again, I feel like
we have this, particularly on social media, we have this
(20:41):
climate that loves to flatten things out and strip things
of nuance and context. And I don't think that we
have I don't think that our platforms have the range
to allow for discussing things in the way they actually
need to be discussed, right Like social media platforms are
incentivize to amplify the most insidiary inflammatory nuance, lacking bs,
(21:05):
extremist stuff, and so I don't think our platforms are
largest communication platforms are really equipped for the level of
like conversation that we need to be having right now,
and not at all. It is like, say something reductive,
say it unapologetically and take out any kind of maybe
could be leading to perhaps you know, and just end
(21:29):
it with the period and you're done, and then you'll
get a million retweets and that's yeah, that's what wins.
People make money off of that, People get deals, and
I don't care which side of the spectrum you're on.
Just no room for nuanced, forgive no one, take no prisoners,
cancel everybody, and or troll everybody, and you will win
(21:51):
as social media. It's so funny that you put it
this way. I miss, I might going off the rails here.
I'm sorry. We can yeah, but you know we have
to talk about women in elections, female candidates. Correct, But
I just gonna say one thing like this is like
one of the reasons why I find myself showing up
less and less on social media platforms because I think
that you're exactly right. It's not even definitely extremists. Right
(22:14):
wing extremists are like the worst, are like the biggest
bad actors, but it certainly they are not the only
ones doing it. And I think even when it's not
something that is like politically charged, like I don't know
if you saw that woman who was tweeting about like,
oh I sure love sitting in my garden and everybody
was like boo, we hate who usedupid bitch? Like we
are incentivized to be our worst selves, and our worst
(22:34):
selves are what these algorithms amplify, and that has been
determined by study after a study like, it's not your
imagination when you bring hatefulness extremism. You know, two platforms,
platforms a boost that when you show up with nuance
or thoughtfulness, they do not. And so it's a real
word tremity, like, hey, I really love my garden. Now
(22:57):
funk your garden? Oh my god, how much do you
want to it? How much water are you wasting in
that beautiful garden of yours? You know that's it's always
you cannot be positive, sable, it's insufferable. And if you
are positive on like you know you do you take
a cute selfie on Instagram, haters be on following you.
(23:19):
Let me just be real, when you post out, you
post something you look cute unfollowed. Yeah, it's funny because
like I I think we're all just like really miserable
and we're showing up with a lot of misery on
exactly exactly. And I've actually even heard people be like, yeah,
don't bring your joy to social media. People will just
(23:41):
find a way to shoot on it. Agreed to take
that somewhere else, like your family. So let's talk about
a little bit about what we've been seeing in terms
of attacks on women of color and black women and
when it comes to elections and hold collected office. So
(24:03):
I want to get into a little bit of research first.
I'll breathe through this, but there's actually quite a big
body of work as of late around some of what
we'll be talking about today. So in this the Internationals
did a study that looked at abusive messages hurled at
a multi racial group of members of parliament, and they
found that Black Asian and minority ethnic women members of
parliament are impacted far more than their white colleagues. The
(24:23):
twenty black Asian and minority ethnic members of Parliament that
they that they looked at received almost half of the
abusive tweets, despite being almost eight times as many white
members of parliament. In the study, uh they also examined
abusive tweets targeted women journalists and politicians in both the
United States and the United Kingdom and found that black
women were eighty four percent more likely than white women
(24:44):
to be mentioned in abusive tweets. Over in the United States,
a report from the Institute for Strategic Dialogue found that
women of color candidates are targeted by the right on
social media at alarming rates. Abusive messages counted for more
than fifteen percent of those directed at every female all
maker analyze, compared to around five to ten of male candidates.
Women of color are particularly likely to be targeted. Rep
(25:06):
il Han Omar received the highest proportion of abusive messages
of all candidates, and AOC received the highest ratio of
abusive comments on Facebook. And this is like a specific
thing to women when they looked at male UH elected
officials who are people of colors, So like Corey Booker
or Tim Scott, who are both black, they received similar
(25:26):
levels of abuse to their white male candidates. However, the
attacks against them were more likely to be about race.
When you look at the way that men are targeted
for you know, problematic or you know negative tweets and
negative content, those tweets are much more likely to focus
on policy, right, So, like, I don't like your position
on this, I don't like your position on that. When
(25:47):
it comes to women, it's much more exactly to be
about their appearance or their general incompetence. Female Democrats received
ten times more abusive comments and their male counterparts on Facebook,
and Republican women got more than twice as many abusive
comments and Republican men and then lastly, the Center for
Democracy and Technology looked at congressional candidates in the US
(26:08):
and found that women of color candidates were the most
ectly to be targeted with the posts that combined miss
and disinformation and abuse. Women of color were at least
five times more likely than other candidates to be targeted
with tweets related to their identity and focus specifically on
their gender and their race. UM, I have to ask you,
does any of this surprise you? No, not at all,
(26:29):
not not in the slightest. And this is why I
always say I think it's important to harass Republican men
based on their looks. I just you know, I I
don't know. I don't. I can't solve any of this.
I can't solve sexism, patriarchy, white supremacy overnight. But I
can troll Matt Gates for his five head or troll
(26:52):
Mitch McConnell for looking like an uncircumcised chode, you know,
like I can. That's what I think we need to
do more of, and that's how I want to level
the playing field. I completely agree. The proudest moment I
had in the last couple of months was that video
of Ted Cruise at a Yankees game and then the
crowd just screaming at him. Remember when Trump called your
(27:13):
wife ugly fuck it? I was like, Oh, that's the
America that I'm proud of, and she no, But I think,
you know, like, yeah, Ted Cruise, I mean this is
I used to get in trouble for when I had
like a news comedy show on a J Plus. They
were like, you should criticize Ted Cruise more on his look,
I mean, sorry, more in his substance, And I was like, yeah,
(27:36):
but he does look like he's holding a bunch of
like little hatchlings of like baby salamanders in his mouth
at all times, you know what I mean. He's just
he looks like you know, and he himself looks like
a bat. Like He's just I need to be able
to say that in the same breath that I'm like yes,
And he also demonizes immigrants and wants to you know,
(27:57):
privatize medicare all those kinds of things. Two things can
be true at once, But I always catch myself because
of course I like to make fun of Marjorie Tayler Green,
you know, um, but am I equally applying that critique
to these other hateful bastards as well. I mean, it's
a great question. I feel like if the research has
(28:18):
anything to be to be looked at like most people are.
When they see a woman, it's like you're an ugly skank,
blah blah blah, and when you see a man it's
like it's I would like to see a world where,
I mean, I don't know that we're ever gonna get
to a place where women are not insulted for their
looks and things they can't control. Why why why can't
(28:38):
Ted Cruz be take take one for his looks, you know,
more than one preferably. And then I think there's always
like Republican generally written large. If a woman is like
made fun of, like Sarah how Colbe Sanders um at
the White House Press Correspondence Dinner by Michelle Wolf, suddenly
(28:59):
they're like, you mean, do that, but AOC is a
Latino with a big gass, and we all know that
she's having anchor babies, you know, like whatever in the
same breath, and they'll be like, how dare you make
fun of Sarah copy Sanders his eyeshadow. She's just a woman.
But they do not apply that at all. Obviously the
(29:20):
other side. I mean, come on, and this is why,
like AOC when she openly speaks about how she gets
these death threats that are very sexual in nature and
also like really charged with that that disgusting like amalgamation
of both being attracted to and then also hating hatefulness
towards her, the vin Tucker Carlson will straight up a
(29:41):
dedicated half an hour segment to be like, Oh, do
you think people want to poke you? I mean, we
do want to poke you, but we don't what we do.
But whatever you're growsing you we girl that grows like
he it's and you're like, you're proving our point, homie.
Are you suggesting that these people are disingenuous? Yeah, Tucker Carlson.
(30:01):
I mean I could do a whole episode on the
way that he coordinates these attacks on women. And then
when the women are like actually, like when they just
are honest about them, he's like, oh, like, it's exactly
what you said. And it's so clear that everyone knows
what's going on. But the only reason that he's able
to get away with minimizing what we can all see
(30:23):
is these like super weird, sexually charged attacks is because
he's not we're not we're not talking honestly about them
as a society, Like like the women who are targeted
aren't really able to speak about them openly, and when
they do, their attacked, and so it's allows for this
vibe or like it's happening, we all see it happening,
we're not talking about it happening. People like Tucker Carlson
(30:43):
can be actively engaged in it happening and like do
make it happen and then go on TV and be
like what are you talking about? And you know exactly, Yeah,
Santa Claus doesn't exist, but like make sure to put
the cookies out every single Christmas. Like it's just like
you're straight up talking, you're make You're willing it into existence.
(31:05):
And AOC to her credit and Ilhano mar to a
lesser extent, I think obviously being a Muslim American woman
like she is targeted because of that as well wearing
a job, but AOC is actually able to talk about
it and be like, yo, there, it is sexual in
nature and that doesn't mean that I'm thirsty for that
attention at all. And then Republicans are like, oh, she's
(31:28):
like no, and I think that's because we are definitely
taught to like when there is a tinge of like,
and especially if someone is attractive, he's attractive, you know,
we're taught to like not um or as women online
like m hmm. Don't don't discuss or bring up the
fact that someone is targeting you in a sexual manner,
(31:49):
because it will almost feel like you're bringing it on
yourself because you're left, do you know what I mean?
And the are you wearing type of way? I know
exactly what you mean, where it's this weird trap of
like if you even acknowledge the fact that it's happening,
the idea, the impression is that you're playing into it,
or that maybe you want it, or it's a two
(32:11):
way street, or like you're you're you're enticing it in
some way, and so that it's one of the reasons
why talking about harassment, especially when it's kind of sexually
charged or sexually tinged, is so difficult because nobody wants
this insinuation that you're that you're getting off on it
or inviting it or wanting it. But I think, I mean,
it's hard to talk about, but I think it's especially
(32:31):
true when you're talking about like young conventionally attractive women.
I think that like men does don't know what to do.
It's like they look like they get can they like
they hate them, but they're aroused. It's like, I think
something happens where they don't know how to handle it.
It comes out as this like incredibly weird, sexually tinged harassment,
(32:52):
And if she even acknowledges the reality of it, then
it's like, oh, well, she must want it, she likes
the attention. Like and I think it really goes back
to this idea that I want to combat in this
episode that like women who run for public office or
women who choose to be visible. So even if you're
not running for public office, if you are an activist,
or if you are a pundit, or you're somebody who
you know builds a platform on Twitter, because you are
(33:15):
building up this profile, Like I feel like that comes
along with a kind of suspicion that you are a
woman who wants power. You're a woman who wants visibility.
You're a woman who wants eyes on her. Therefore you
deserve whatever you get. It comes with it comes with
the territory of showing up in that way and if
you did, if you didn't really want that kind of sexualized,
charred harassment and attention, you would be in the shadows.
(33:38):
You would not be a public figure, you would not
be running for office, you would be completely offline. If
it's no one, no one applies that. No one applies
that to men. Although we all know Ted Cruz very
much gets off on being trolled, so she actually is
aroused and is inviting it and wants you to dunk
(34:01):
on him. It gets him whoa things that I don't
want to imagine. So everyone just know that every time
you're gonna tweet, bagoted Cruise or make fun of him,
that it only makes him stronger, you know where. So yeah, yes,
it is. Yeah. So one of the important things to
(34:26):
remember is that the point of all of this, all
of these like racist, sexist attacks on women and women
of color in the public eye. It's it's particularly for
who are running for office or holding an elected office.
It's meant to take all of the oxygen out of
the room and have the thing that takes up the
most base, be the racism or the sexism or the
sexualization or whatever. And a great example is Kamala Harris.
(34:48):
Now I should say, I am no big fan of
Harris when she was running for president. I had major
issues with her record, you know. But when she was
named as Biden's vice presidential pick, she based a way
aave of like, racist, misogynistic, sexually charged attacks, including these
like explicit and unplicit suggestions that she is untrustworthy, too emotional,
(35:09):
or unqualified, according to The New York Times false. And
then this leading information about Harris spiked online on on
TV as soon as she was named as the vice
presidential pick. The activity jumped from two dozen mentions per
hour during the recent week to over three thousand, two
hundred per hour when she was named. This is according
to a company called Signal And so there's something very
specific about the attacks on her. I'm gonna put a
(35:31):
link in the chat to an image or actually, Sophie's
got it, super producer, So what tell me? Tell me
what your reaction to this image here? It's pretty upsetting,
h is those the legs? Those are those are white
women legs. Oh, it's a very sloppy photo, I should
(35:54):
probably describe it's a very spy photoshop job of Harris
on her back with a pair of obviously like white
women's legs in heels up. It says, get her done, Kamala,
heals up Harris for the people. She's got a little
speech bubble where she is saying to be VP. Sure
I will. And so the insinuation is that she is
(36:16):
having sex with someone in order to become the vice
presidential pick. Yeah, it's a terrible photoshop job. It's clearly
the legs of a white woman. It's like not she
doesn't even wear shoes like that. Um, but yeah, I mean,
but I think more than that. I mean, obviously those
shoes look really painful number one to walk in. But
more than that, it is very jarring to see someone,
(36:38):
a public figure who is deserving of a minimal amount
of respect, to be portrayed in this way. Um, so disgustingly.
And um it's the same when like, you know, I
was no big fan of Hillary Clinton, but watching seeing
all those shirts that are like you know, Hillary swallows,
like that shirt people are selling, Like what the fuck
(37:00):
you know, like Hillary, why why are you selling this?
Like I understand, like go back to lock her up?
And this is it's that same thing, like no matter
how far you get, we can always photos like we're
always imagining you like fucking your way to the top,
Like we're all be your only reduced to the fact
that you are a woman. Exact criticize her record, this
(37:23):
is like so juvenile and disgusting, right, and so like,
I mean, it's it's one of those things. So, so
this is the common trope with Harris, Like if you
google the phrase heels up Harris, that was like a
common attack on her, is that this idea that she
slept quote slipt her way to the top. And it's
a bit like the attacks on Ghostbusters that we talked
(37:44):
about last episode, where the whole conversation gets flattened out
and becomes people taking sides and nobody is just like
talking about the merit of the movie, right, And so
when it comes to Harris, you know, people are lobbying
these incredible, incredibly like set realized attacks on her because
she is a woman of color, and then people watching
(38:05):
they I kind of understandably feel like they have to
support her. And so Harris has an incredibly like robust
online network of supporters who will like pervently pushed back
against any and all criticisms of her online. And so
the ability to just have an honest, accurate conversation about
her record, her merit, her acts, her actual actions gets
(38:25):
totally lost in the noise intention. And then it's I
think precisely the point nobody can talk about her actual record,
whether or not she's fit for office whatever, when you
introduce these kinds of like sexist, racist, gross attacks. And
so I would say, like, even if you're somebody who
you know doesn't like Harris, doesn't think that she is,
(38:47):
you know, should have didn't think she made it a president,
doesn't make she makes a good vice presidential candidate, I
feel like you should be invested in making sure the
conversation does not rely and traffic in these sexist smears
and tropes, because you should want to be having space
to talk about her actual record. But when these are
introduced into the conversation, we don't really get that. I mean,
(39:08):
look at how effectively it worked in twenty six seen
against Hillary Clinton. As I was mentioning before, I mean,
it is again absent of like put the record aside.
We've seen the way women in public spaces have been
completely torn down. And this is why I mean, I
will say we can't have nice things, and by nice things,
(39:28):
I mean a first female president a um, you know,
vice president of color, like I mean, which we do have,
but like by you know, it's a thin we're we're
we're treading very lightly here. And if Kamala Harris does
run for president one day again, this will only get
worse and worse and worse and focus on all side
(39:49):
of the political spectrum. And I'm a huge Bernie bro
Like I do not like Hillary Clinton or Kamala Harris
for that matter, but my god, I understand how these
things are weaponized against them to tear them down. And
what's fucked is that it is conflated with their record
rather than separated. It is automatically conflated so that people
(40:11):
who whose politics I disagree with, you know, maybe someone
from the k hive who's like, you know, yeah, I
think we need more cops like kamally like like that
that I will get accused of racism or sexism when
I'm bringing up a substantive point um. And that is
the way that I think identity politics can be weaponized
in a cynical and way by liberals. You know, Yeah,
(40:35):
I find myself, it's I find myself having to defend women,
particularly women of color whose politics I don't align with
Time and time again where I'm like, how can we
just talk about but they're so well, some of these people,
there's so much to dislike, there's so much to pull apart.
We really don't have to talk about the way she looks.
We really don't have to rely on like sexist tropes
(40:57):
about any of this. Like there's for a lot of
these people, they're so much substance there to talk about.
Why are you cheapening the conversation by introducing this stuff?
And we it's like, if you if you're someone who
doesn't like these figures, you should be investing and having
a real conversation about their actual records so that like
we can actually air it out when you introduce these
(41:18):
kinds of like this garbage. People aren't doing that because
that is like the point of these attacks. They just
take up so much room and then you're defending it,
and then and then people are defending them, and like
you lose, you lose the thread of like well what
do we act like what is this person's actual record?
What is our actual merit? Completely so I obviously had
a ton to say about this topic, so much that
(41:40):
we actually needed to do an additional episode. So this
is just part one of Francesca, Sophie and My exploration
into the ways that online abuse and harassment can keep
women out of elected office, create barriers to their success
once they get there, and overall crtail speech and civic participation.
We'll be talking more in depth about specific women of
their political candidates and the campaigns of harassment that they
(42:03):
had to endure once they got into public office. In
the meantime, here's Baltimore States Attorney Marylyn Moseby talking about
her experience as a black woman and left official. You know,
it can be overwhelming, and I think my kids more recently,
I would say, in the past year or so, I
have seen me understress. And so for the first time,
my baby said, Mommy, I don't want to be a
politician anymore. And I'm like, why, why don't you want
(42:25):
to be a politician? Like what? What? Now? She's like,
I don't want them to treat me the way he
treat you. So that brought it tear to my eye.
But other than that, I'm like, baby, they will only
treat you like that when you stand for what's right,
and that's what comes with trying to change systems and
if mommy is gonna be fine. But this this comes
with the territory. You have to have courage enough to
(42:47):
know that you're doing the right thing. As long as
you're doing the right thing, people are always going to
come for you. Not only are these stories heartbreaking, but
they also demonstrate how online harassment and abuse keeps us
from having the healthy democracy that we deserve. There is
so much to say about this, so please, please please
tune in to part two of our exploration of black
women political candidates, online harassment and abuse and why it's
(43:10):
the problem for all of us. Internet Hate Machine is
a production of cool Zone Media. More podcasts from cool
Zone Media, check out our website cool zone media dot com,
or find us on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Bridget Todd
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com