Part Two: The Online & Real Life Harassment of Marginalized Elected Officials

In the conclusion of this two part episode, Bridget continues her conversation with journalist and comedian Francesca Fiorentini to talk through the midterm elections and how online harassment keeps women from succeeding in elected office.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to another episode of Internet Hate Machine. So
this is the final installment of our two part episode
with Francesca Fiorentini, where we look at the ways that
harassment online keeps women, particularly women of color and black women,
from being able to run for and hold public office
safely and how it impacts our democracy more broadly. So

(00:21):
in our last episode, we talked about some national leaders
like Kamala Harris, and in this episode were going in
to look at some specific women in local public offices
and the harassment and abuse that they faced just for
trying to do their jobs. So, you know, we're talking
about Harris. But I want to make it clear that
when it comes to women who are running for public office,
it is not always like flashy candidates with well funded

(00:43):
campaigns who are like running for a presidential administration. We're
often talking about women running for like local offices like
school boards in their community or county commissioners. So I
want to talk about a few examples of what I mean.
The first is Tammy Sawyer. Will actually hopefully hear from
Tammy Sawyer in her own words later in the seas
and but I want to talk about her time as
an elected official in Memphis, Inde. So Jammy Sawyer got

(01:05):
her start in activism. She felt called the public service
watching the acquittal of George Zimmerman during the murder of
Trayvon Martin and the grand jury decision not to try
Darren Wilson to the death of Mike Brown. She became
a pretty like visible figure in the movement for Black Lives.
In she organized a visual in honor of Tamir Rice
at the Health Sciences Park in Memphis. If you've ever

(01:25):
been there in the last few years, you know that
it had a statue of Confederate general and klu Klux
Klan Grand Wizard Nathan Bedford Forrest, the namesake for the
movie Forrest Gump. Fun fact. In twenty seventeen, Tammy Sawyer
organized the hashtag take him Down nine oh one movement,
which led to the statute being removed. In eighteen of August,

(01:47):
she was elected to Shelby County Commissioner for District seven
in Memphis. So she was just like visible figure in
the movement for Black Lives. But that thing that elevated
her to the public stage also made her a huge
get for white supremacists. Things came to a head in
June when she was doing a press conference at this
park during the actual removal of the monument. So there's

(02:08):
a little bit of like weird backstory through this like
very weird compromise. The group Sons of Confederate Veterans were
responsible for hiring and overseeing the construction project to remove
this Confederate statue. It sounds like they never wanted the
statue to be removed in the first place, and the
team that they put together and hired to remove it

(02:29):
it seemed to reflect that right this team that they
had was obviously not thrilled that these statues were coming down,
to say the least. Yeah, that's an interesting contractor Like yeah,
like Sons of the Confederate Veterans like a Confederate statue enthusiasts,
You know, I don't fully get it. No, is there

(02:49):
no one else who can take down the statues. It's
just the same people who put them up are also
the people who take them down. That's the that's the compromise.
It has to be fair. So the crew hired to
take down these monuments, they ended up putting Confederate flags
all over the job site. Uh, it sounds like they
intentionally covered this like Black Lives Matter mural with bricks

(03:09):
while working just like petty ship, right, just like petty
stunt ship. That's that's how they were doing this. For
whatever reason, I don't fully get like why or how
this happened, but petty stunt shit. So a member of
that crew hired to remove the monument, as a man
named George k Rath Johnson, who is the founding member
of a group called Confederate nine oh one, who has

(03:30):
a history of like showing up in places where Confederate
monuments are being taken down. They were the group if
you remember, like the group that was protesting a Confederate
monument being taken down an Ole, miss That was them.
I found this very interesting. A piece in the Clarion
Ledger says that the group is mostly white, shocker, but
they do have a black member who led one of

(03:51):
their marches in Memphis, so like yea for inclusion. Something
else to know about this guy is that, in addition
to you being a founding member of this Confederate group,
he loves Facebook Live. And here's what he had to
say about his own presence in Pittsburgh, North Carolina on
Facebook Live today. I was like, I want to go

(04:11):
to Chapel Hill, I want to go to Pittsburgh. I
want to go over to where they've already removed the monuments,
you know. And honestly, yeah, I was looking to start
the pot, but hey, they've been stirring the pot for
a long damn time, and I'm about ready to make
my own Batchel stew you know, all right, So that's him.

(04:38):
You want to eat people. That's literally what you're saying.
What that was? That was my inderstitting as well. Yeah,
it's a very weird growth analogy, and I don't like
it at all. And so this is this is the
person who is hired to be part of the construction
crew to take down this monument, but to do it
in the stuntiest way possible in Memphis, where Tammy Sawyer

(05:01):
has like led this campaign to remove his monuments, And
while Tammy is trying to hold a press conference at
this park, Johnson stands behind her, marching back and forth
holding a Confederate flagged. He uses racist insults toward her.
He sings the Confederate anthem Dixie as he's trying to
speak God. Here's a little clip of what it sounded
like outside the Health and Sciences Park in Memphis that day.

(05:26):
So when they put all of this on social media,
they continued to threat a life. When they continue to
do all this, say they're going to be if you
have it on proper, and they waved their racist confederates
to move behind. Remember, okay, okay, wrong here to give

(05:47):
you all the statement and say that this is a
powerful moment. I was going to connect. I was going
to connect it to Memphis Massenger. You know who else
a communist they caught Martini became a communist. They called
your James a communist when you're a armist. They called
the Black Panthers communist. James Baldwin was called a connu.

(06:08):
James Walding Johnson was called a commun Muhammad Ali was
called a time era Comglas. Make sure you get a
picture of the man who just ranted my life, the
man who just said he was gonna lay hands on it,
and then make sure you go down there when they're body.

(06:29):
I remember that I do this by myself. No one,
No one comes with me. Oh no, no security power.
That's what these people are. Their power. So he said
you're gonna be by hans Am right high behind the blind,
he was a man. I'm I'm I'm more a man

(06:51):
and you are, Yes, Tammy, Yes, Tammy. Remember that Audrey
Lord once said they will kill you and say you like,
I'm not gonna let him kill me, but if he does,
you know who to go. Fine, right, y'all know where
to start. So that's really where things kind of come

(07:17):
to a head. And honestly, it's hard to watch that
because I really feel for Tammy in that video. You know,
she's just trying to do her job. She obviously has
to respond in this moment with like grace because it's
happening in public, and you don't want to give these
people any fodder to be like, oh, she deserved it.

(07:37):
You know, you can't you can't really respond the way
that you might want to because of all the negative
stereotypes that women deal with that we talked about earlier.
And Yeah, I just I really feel for her, Like
I feel like it's palpable to see that, and she's
dealing with this alone and and like Tammy. Tammy was
actually on my podcast The Situation Room a while ago

(07:58):
before this, and she's the most lovely person, Like she's
so wonderful and and just like warm and thoughtful and
fearce and you can and clearly it comes across. But
it is just funny that, like, yeah, the Confederacy has
been reduced to a sad man on a random Tuesday

(08:20):
with nothing to do with a tiny little flag and
his little you know, his air pods, listening to whatever
the funk he's listening to, waving his flag behind a
woman in a friend doing a press conference, like Robert E.
Lee would be so proud of you, sir, oh God,
like keep the keep the flame alive, you idiot, Like
you want to lose again the fun You fucking lost

(08:43):
the Civil War, bitch, Like I'm sorry, I'm just like
you can't get over the fact that you goddamn lost
and you want a stupid monument to your loser ass,
you know, civil War hero. Shut the funk up. Fun fact,
the show The Golden Girls lasted longer than the Confederacy,
So maybe we should have monuments to Yes, we should.
Sophia deserves her own monument. I, as an Italian woman,

(09:07):
believe Sophia is our our our queen. Um No, yeah,
that is It's just so sad it is. And so
after this interaction, Sawyer filed charges against him and said that,
you know, he threatened her. During the investigation, it is
revealed that that same man, after she filed those charges,
went on Facebook Live and read her address out loud.

(09:29):
Here's a little bit about how she explains what went
down after the incident we just heard because he went
on Facebook Live with a friend and offered out my
address and actually emailed out my address to people telling
them to send me cotton and other gifts and uh,
show me who was in charge in this country. Um,

(09:52):
and you know threatening that after January, after court that
mythis and me we're going to face a reckoning because
of those actions that came to light this weekend. The
judge was forced to allow the case to continue. But
the judges also from Dyer County, UM, and he did
not want the case to continue. And he lectured Mr

(10:15):
Johnson and told him you have a great lawyer. Um,
you know, why did you open your mouth? You know,
don't ruin a good thing, he told him, Son, don't
ruin a good thing. And so I already see what
this is going. Wow, that is incredible that that was
what was discussed and so so what just nothing left

(10:36):
for you here? I was in court, and when I
attempted to speak, the judge told me that I don't
address him. I could talk to the d A. This
is the same d A that never called me, interviewed me,
and actually today when the case was continue to be
set for trial in March, uh said, I'll now have
to look at this case. I have to be honest.
I hadn't looked at it because I just knew it

(10:58):
was going to be dismissed. So this is a six
month old situation that went viral, that was covered on
your show and many others. Um, and the d as
telling me he's never looked at the bio and now
he's going to have to look at it. Um, there's
still emotion to dismiss from the defense that will be
heard on March thirty. Yeah, you can sort of get
a sense that, like, it doesn't sound like anybody whose

(11:21):
job it is to give a ship gives a ship.
She's an elected official. I believe she's still currently the
commissioner Shelby County Commissioner. No, she was at that point,
but no longer. She's not like today. But yeah, so
she at that point, she was still lots of official
and this is how they were treating uh pretty clear,

(11:42):
like like problem, you know, it's okay. Also, keep in
mind she was a county commissioner, right, It's not like
she had a well funded security detail or like endless
funds to dedicate to the kinds of like security that
someone would need in a situation like this, you know,
after this man made a show of having her address
and a clear intent to cause her harm. But so

(12:02):
Tammy had to fundraise for her own security. I should say,
full disclosure, I do work for an organization that did
help her fundraise for her security details, So like I
should add that, But it only makes us like you
more bridges good. I don't want someone to like find
that and be like, wait a minute, conflict of interest.
I mean, and I loved Tammy and I admire her
work so much, and like, you know, it is what

(12:25):
it is, like, I like, I can't believe you would
cover this story. I mean, I thought you had integrity.
It's like, you know, we we saw what happened, and
it just it felt like nobody had her back, right,
Like she shouldn't have to. It shouldn't be this this
barrier and this cost that just she alone has to shoulder.
Isn't my county commissioners this like lucrative, cushy thing, Like

(12:48):
she shouldn't have to just like shell out to have
to have security because some Confederate maniac has a B
in its bonnet, like I thought it was acceptable. Yes,
And it's indicative of the fact that most people who
run for elected office and who get elected are themselves wealthy,
and they're usually white dudes, um, and they have generational wealth,

(13:11):
they're or they're independently wealthy, whatever the case may be,
and they can afford a security detail. But again, as
you've discussed and laid out, mostly when you are a
white man in office, you do not face those kinds
of threats the way women and women of color do.
And it goes from I mean from tammy to AOC
on you know, on a federal level, I guess, or

(13:32):
in in Congress, you know, AOC saying we need security
and this is after January six, right, this is like
we need better security in and around the capital, and
it seems like that's only reserved for people who um
like the speaker or um who people who just privately
funded themselves and who's got the money for that? I

(13:54):
mean this is ostensibly these should be public servants, and
this is the mint that they're just the least we
could do for them, exactly. And if we're saying we
want to have a representative democracy where lots of different
folks from lots of different backgrounds can be public servants,
that should include people who I'm sorry can't afford a
private security details. Shouldn't this be for wealthy people? And

(14:15):
I feel like we are creating a situation where the
only people who can reasonably and safely hold public office
are people who have independent wealth to pay the astronomical
costs that are involved with security and online and offline security.
And so I think it's a real problem. And you know,
I should say, like with the Tammy Sawyer situation, the

(14:37):
charges were eventually dropped against the person who was harassing her,
you know, it sounds like Tammy felt like this case
was not handled seriously. She talks about how the judge
was like really paling it up with with the with
the defendant who she says was harassing her. And when
the judge was like, oh, you know, why did that
don't go on Facebook live? It wasn't because he wanted

(14:58):
Tammy to feel safe. It was because he didn't want
that guy to make his case that much harder to
have him be dismissed. And so when when the charges
were dismissed, Tammy wrote on Facebook, she said, but even
though the judge called his actions pathetic, he could not
identify a reasonable level of fear on her part. And
so I would actually argue that that that that like weird.

(15:21):
I know, it's so funked up, and like I think
that weird vibe. That tightrope of like I have to
show public grace kind of creates this impossible situation where
it's like, oh, well, you can handle it. Like you're
a black woman. It's just like part of showing up
and being a visible black woman. You're not afraid whatever, whatever.
And I think that's part of it. It's an impossible

(15:41):
situation that we face. You're used to it, no it
Imagine if she had freaked out in that video, Imagine
if she'd gotten angry, right, it would have been used
against her. She homie would have that other dude, the
dude would have used it to file charges against her, right,
and you know that would have flown and he would
like he would have loved that. He was just waiting

(16:03):
for her to go off on him, and she didn't.
She had to keep her cool, um, which is asked
of marginalized people all the time, because when you raise
your voice somehow that is uh, that's a threat. But yeah,
I think the other thing I was gonna say, and
this is a terrible comparison, but when it comes to
the justice system, it's just right there for the taking.
Like you know that rape victims are their cases are

(16:26):
not taken seriously often if they don't quote unquote fight back, right,
so and in this case, oh, she wasn't afraid. She
wasn't afraid because she didn't raise her voice, or she
didn't run. She wasn't physically running at the time. Um,
so therefore there was no fear. Like what are you
talking about? This is all about surviving And I just,

(16:48):
I mean, you bring up such a good point about
the ways that he really just failed survivors and made
and made survivors walk a really impossible tight rope in
public and it's just really fucked up. And yeah, it
makes me very sad. And today Timmy Sawyer is no
longer in public office. She is pursuing a PhD. And

(17:11):
don't get me wrong, Like she's still doing great things,
Like we will hear her. I am so sure we're
gonna hear her name again, Like just because she's no
longer in public office. I don't think this is like
the end of her band of her road by by
any margin. But I do think that we should acknowledge
this like added burden that she was forced to carry
because of her identity, you know, pursuving charges against somebody

(17:31):
who gave out her address and encourage people to harass her.
And it's like we rather than taking the time to
really reflect on that or acknowledge that, we just move on.
We were just like, oh yeah, like it just it
just feels like a footnote as opposed to something that
is a real marker of our democracy and and how
unwell our democratic system is right now. It's also it

(17:55):
reminds me of like she was working with Black Voters
Matter when I had her on, So she also done
incredible activism and and you're totally right, we'll continue to
do so. But it reminds me of like a women
in comedy, you know, where it's like a lot of
male bookers will be like, well, look, I would put
more women on my show. But like, they're not any
good women there. I don't know any female comics. It's

(18:16):
like number one, you're you're blind, and there are tons
of amazing women female comics. But also it's like, yeah,
look at the industry at large, like look at the
culture of comedy. In a lot of ways, we don't
have hr. There's not it's like a not a safe
space specifically for women and for women of color. The

(18:37):
comedy space just isn't, you know, right, Like and and
it's the same thing with elected office. It's just like, well,
you know, we we love to have like some kind
of quota or have like more women in office, but
just they don't run. And and and I think Republicans
are so guilty of that too, you know, because it's
like they have what like three female senators. It's just

(18:57):
it's like the lowest in in internationally. I think the
US Congress is one of the least representative bodies when
it comes to gender and so and like and he's
just like, well, we we'd we'd support them if they
would run for office. No, they run for office, they
just get torn down. I mean, I'm also thinking of

(19:18):
someone like Katie Hill in California, like they get torn
the funk apart. So yeah, yeah, and it's funny that
you mean not funny. But what Katie Hill went through
was a sex crime. Like she was the victim of
a sex crime by a an ex romantic partner who
was like like harassing her. And yet it's like we

(19:41):
just allow we just have a really fucked up culture
when it comes to women. I guess I'll just say that,
like all I can really say. So I want to
talk about one more elected official and her experience in
public office, KEYA. Morris. She made history in twenty four

(20:03):
tenez Vermont's only black woman lawmaker. Her husband James, grew
up in Bennington, Vermont, and she went to college in Chicago,
but relocated back to Vermont to become a lawmaker. Her
career was very short lived because it was completely derailed
by online harassment and violent threats by self proclaimed white
nationalist Max Mish. Mish was kind of known as like

(20:24):
a violent his name is Max Mish, Max Mish, Dude,
white nationalists have the dumbest name. They really do match.
I don't know, I'm just like that is the stupid anyway. Sorry,
it's like Mickey mouse name. That's amazing, so stupid. So

(20:48):
he's kind of like, no, like a known violent asshole.
Side note, he looks exactly like whatever you're thinking that
he looks like. Based on the behavior I'm meant to describe,
I can tell you that you're right, whatever you're thinking. Yes,
that's what he looks like. Very red faced, super red face.
You got it, you got it. So mission he planned

(21:12):
guilty to both first degree aggravated domestic assault and disorderly
conduct as a hate crime. So he has this like
he doesn't have a great like he's like a known
ship head, I guess. So he's been through a lot,
is what you're saying. Yeah, he's just a real victim,
you know. And so Kia when she supports a gun
safety bill, she starts to experience animosity from gun rights

(21:34):
advocates in Vermont because of her support of this legislation. Now,
many legislators and the governor were targeted with like angry
mail and messages over this this law. But the kind
of content that she gets is very different because she's
a black woman and the only black woman in the legislature.
So you know, she's not just getting like, oh, we
didn't like that you support this bill. She's getting frightening,

(21:57):
horrific racist messages, particularly from Max. Miss Max starts sending
her these like racist memes on Twitter and elsewhere about
her support for the bill. Kia says that she gets
an uptick in in the intensity of this kind of
harassment after a columnist for the white supremacist website The
Info Stormer posted about her reelection and starts tagging like

(22:18):
residents in it the Stormer. Sorry, I had to give
that a moment. I know, I feel like it's like
we stormed the truth. They're like putting a bunch of
words into like an AI generator or something, and it's
like Info Stormer, that's gonna be it, Like you mean
Daily Stormer. No, we're like a breakaway of the Daily
storm Er. Who even is that exactly? It's so ridiculous.

(22:44):
And so in a ten page report published by the
Vermont Attorney's General Attorney General's Office and outlines almost fifty
instances of threatening behavior where her or her family or
her neighbors called the police. And so first Vermont, you guys,
And it's funny because you think of Vermont is like
a progressive state, but you know, it's like this should happens.

(23:08):
You know, it's not just Bernie building a fire endlessly
and and the and the coat factory or like wearing Mitten's. Exactly,
it's Vermont. It's more than Mitten's. It's actually the slug. Yeah,
that's I mean, that's what Max Mish wants. Like they
these guys must be so mad that Bernie like put

(23:29):
them on the map as like as a governor Vermont
as a Republican. Yeah, it's one of those states, right,
It's one of those sort of like it's kind of
a Max miss state, you know, it's a state like
MAXI missology. They're governors. But I think it's his Phil
Scott and he's like this is like his fourth time.

(23:50):
And and it was the one issue that Sanders, like
Clinton was to the left of Sanders on because there's
so many guns enthusiasts in Vermont and SAMs was I mean,
I think now that's like, I mean, how many mass
shootings has there been since seen? Right? So even now
I don't think he can hold that line. But it's
been the sort of one gray area where he was

(24:10):
like had to appease the gun folks in his state. Yeah,
I get. I get. I mean, like honestly researching this episode,
I get it. I was like, oh, I don't think
I realized how fervent gun ideology is. Like I live
in d C, so like there's gun crimes here, but
like individuals don't have the same kind of um connection

(24:31):
to it. And when I was researching this episode, I
was like, oh wow, Like I forget how different it
is in different states that like it's a real issue, right,
It's it's they're they're all arming up for the imagined crime,
whereas like d C actually has a little bit of it. Yeah. Yeah,
So the kinds of messages that she's getting from MAXI
Mish are just racist garbage. You know, go back to Africa.

(24:55):
That's the only place that you'll be safe, that kind
of thing, Right, And so in August she files a
complaint the FBI where she says if this guy and
his associates are harassing her on Twitter, But as online
harassment often works, it doesn't just stay online. It bleeds
from Twitter and Facebook into her offline life. On election Day,
she's doing in a campaign added a polling place and
she sees this guy Max. They're staring at her and

(25:18):
weirding her out. Then somebody breaks into her home. They
stole about a hundred of her husband's neckties and littered
them across a cemetery in her home. It's very weird.
It's like a very weird thing. So can you imagine
them getting together and be like, so, which what should
we do? You know, should we like should we put
like a horse in her bed like in you know, godfather, No,

(25:40):
I saw this one thing on like the Lifetime channel.
We're gonna do the neck ties, the necktie thing, Pete,
I don't know if we should do the No, trust me,
we're gonna do the necktie thing. It'll be it'll be crazy.
We just put a little necktie on every single gravestone.
It's such it's such a weird, specific like way to

(26:02):
funk with somebody. Yes, so bizarre. You know, it's like
a it's like a snowman but of but of headstones,
and you probably you know, we we're gonna get the
corn cob pipe and the carrot knows and then one
of their neckties. It will freak her out. I mean
I probably mission accomplished. Yeah, she was completely freaked out. Also,

(26:22):
her home was vandalized with paintballs, but then we're gonna
bake her a pie, so one hot piping apple pie. Yeah,
a lot of mixed signals from these answers. A house
nearby that has a ton of her Like campaign paraphernalia
on their windows gets a racist mail er shoved under

(26:43):
the door, and then her babysitter reports that a man
in a car outside of her home is recording their house.
So let's just like weird, like weird scary ship that
maybe does not like I kind of see whoever is
doing this. It kind of seems like they're trying to
operate on a level of like it's enough to freak
you out, but not enough to be like, you know,

(27:04):
the kind of crime that the police would take seriously.
Like I feel like they're they're really walking a line
of like it has to be scary, but not scary
enough that like somebody in power would take this seriously.
But that's sort of the the tricky thing with harassment generally, right,
and with like crimes, whether they be I mean, especially
sexual crimes. But like is that gray area and it's
the sort of you know, I know it's overused, but

(27:25):
that microaggression, but this is obviously much more than that,
like the micro the stocking, right, the harassing and harassment.
It's like, well, did he enter with a gun? Did he? Like? No, buddy,
there's a car outside. Uh someone's filming me. And it's
just like and of course, um cops not the most empathetic,

(27:46):
not the best at dealing with some of these. The
warning signs, which by the way, is really just hey,
do you have a history of DV Yeah, then you
should have someone tailing you at all times because likely
you're gonna do some other ship to somebody else, and
you probably shouldn't have a gun, and you definitely shouldn't
have a gun, like just some common sense like, yeah,

(28:08):
if you've been threatening your domestic partner, maybe let's not
get a gun in the mix, Like just you know.
Uh So the police, it sounds like, don't really do anything,
Like they don't she when when they when somebody breaks
into her house, they don't like take fingerprints or whatever.
She gets a restraining order against him, but it only
lasts for one year. After the restraining order expires, Max

(28:28):
Miss contacts her again on social media, writing on Twitter,
you will never silence me. Every time you attend a
political rally, at the Four Corners or another local venue,
and I'm aware of the event. I will troll the
hell out of you and other subversives there. Maybe I'll
bring a friend or three with me to stop pushing
social justice on your nearly entirely white constituency in Bennington, Vermont.

(28:50):
Go back to Chicago if you want to engage in
social justice warrior bullshit. We will continue to fight against
you and your efforts to make our town and state
look more like your mongrel son pretty fucked up, like
not good and so I understand why she was like
terrified and unnerved. But unfortunately the Attorney General declines to

(29:10):
press charges against this guy, explaining that in this case,
the online communications that were sent to Ms Morris by
Max Mish and others were clearly racist and offensive. However,
the First Amendment does not make speech sanctionable merely because
it is objectionable. The question here is whether the messages
and context were communicating a serious expression of intent to
harm Miss More's or her family. Yes, sorry, I don't

(29:32):
mean interrupt, Yes, yes yes. The fact that a number
of the messages were directed at her as in her
role as an elected official racist. The issue of whether
they were intended to express political opposition through the use
of hyperbole and insult, as known in the case above. Therefore,
there appears to be insufficient evidence to pursue criminal charges
under Vermont law. Bullshit. I mean, that's such bullshit that

(29:57):
because that's that's basically like, well, it's open season, you know.
And here we are in a moment where it's like,
oh my god, someone protested outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home,
Like how dare you? You know? What? We really need
to beef up security on um white men in power,
like or the Supreme Court is just being targeted, Like no,
these are the stories that happen all the time on

(30:17):
a local level. People have been harassed for decades and
we don't hear it. Gabby Gifford Scott has to get
shot in the head and we still don't have security
details for elected officials. I mean, it's just how many
more instances do you need? And it was so perfect.
It's like, Okay, we we know who we choose to protect.
We know when people raise the alarm. It's when fucking

(30:39):
Ted Cruise gets strolled a Yankees game. And then it's like,
oh my god, yeah, and it creates this like really
obviously false, frustrating both sides narrative of like, oh, they
both sides do it, and it's like, wow, someone writing
in chalk outside of Brett Kavanaugh's home is different than
like breaking in the Nancy Pelosi's home and hitting her
husband on the head with a hammer. It's like those
are not analga, so like, let's not pretend that they are. Like,

(31:03):
I hate this vibe of like I think that political
violence and threats against elected officials as like a should
be a nonpartisan issue, but I hate this on this
vibe that like we have to be completely disingenuous about
which side is doing it in a way that it's
like much more fucking scary. Yes, so case closed. They're
not going to present charges against this guy. There's a

(31:25):
press conference where the d A is announcing that he
does not intend to press charges against Max Miish. After
the d A speaks about freedom of speech, Kia gets
up to the podium to speak and guests who comes
in Max Mish. He's wearing a Peppe the Frog shirt
and you can hear everyone's reaction when he enters here. No, no, no,

(31:54):
a lot everybody. You don't have to put upstation new
We're here at one side. I went to say something

(32:14):
to please, so I'm happy to take other questions other
than that federal ways violent colds. I don't believe so meeting.
This is not that that I'm going to conclude the

(32:34):
press conference unless there are other questions. I like to say,
this is not as a political opponent was accused of
being your Nazi. Myself, I think we're here on one
side of the story. Oh my god, this is failed
wall maker. Kevin hoyt ys politics, and I was called
the Nazi. I was called the white supremacie. Probably are

(32:57):
my guy. Obviously racism exists, and from my steak, it's like, hey, right,
it's crazy. We don't want these things. Whether we're part
of our fabric of society, I question to one degree,
though I call bullshit. I'm miss Morris. I think, okay,
so you kind of get the idea. Kevin hoyte Is

(33:19):
is like we folks are in just he's he's his
own like weird guy who folks. You can look at
him up if you're interested, But it's so so funny
that he's like I was also unfairly called a Nazi,
and I think we should let him speak. It is
just wild, right, like complete pandemonium. Onlookers use their jackets
to try to block mish Um. It's this big dramatic scene,

(33:39):
but not to Max mish to him, and it's all
a big joke. He told the Free Press, I am
a troll. I like it. I like this, like it's
just funny into him And so I would have to
play a little clip of him responding to the Free
Press because I can, Yes, you can. Absolutely. I didn't
explain why you do that, but that's why we were

(34:00):
holding up our coats so that people of color don't
have to see that hate. And we're surrounding you and
we don't like it. It's it's vile. Yes, you have
the right to put the shirt on, but I have
the right to tell you that it's hateful, it's cruel,
and it's vile. I mean, you can cry about all

(34:23):
you want. I don't care. I'm not crying. I'm pissed.
It's Max. Are you intentionally being provocative? That's what people? Yes?
Why why are you being provocative? Electrolling people? It's fun
having that concept for doing it. So he's clearly just
someone who likes to like like this is a joke

(34:46):
to him. I don't think that he's any of this
is serious to him. I think it's just a joke.
Oh my god, if mom at a shirt, I'm like,
just like mom issues in a person, you know, like, um,
it's because I want to attend because I didn't get
enough as a child and no one will play with
me and one time they ditched me in the sandbox
for like the volleyball court and I didn't know how

(35:08):
to play volleyball, and uh, you know, it's just like
it's like, oh my god, go to therapy, bro, go
to therapy. People like again, what is it? What will
it take? And I think that's the woman who's like, yes,
I have the right to also, you know, stand in
front of you and call you hateful. She was excellent.
And then she points out that the media is going

(35:30):
to the provocateur and saying, which is just a really
funny statement. I mean, I don't no disrespect to local news,
but like or the free press, but like it is
very funny to be like, are you being intentionally provocative?
Like yeah, like what is the other answer to that? No,
in my heart of hearts, I do believe that white

(35:50):
people are a superior race, Like, huh, interesting, expound on that,
you know, like, what, what's the other answer? Yes, he's
being provocative on per this does it as have to
do with his fund up ideology? Doesn't even matter? Yeah,
and ask him about that with a camera with a
bunch of camera crews in his face, like, sir, are
you intentionally being provocative? Are we? Like it's like you're

(36:12):
providing the answer is clearly yes, and you're providing him
the exact thing that the provocateur wants a platform. And
this is and I think it's important to remember, I believe,
or maybe fifteen, but kind of when the media was
lending a platform to people like Richard Spencer, people like
these sort of you know, um Nazis in suits or

(36:35):
sort of you know, and and on on the cusp
of the election of Donald Trump, effectively saying maybe we
need to listen to Nazis a little bit more. And
now that they've made their message a little more couth
and digestible, Um, you know, hey, they're not a hateful.
They just believe we should live in separate communities for
people of color and white people. And there's nothing hateful

(36:57):
about that, Like I mean just the mind trick that
I think white nationalists pulled on the media and the
media in turn pulled on us. We're seeing that in
a microcosm in this example that you that you brought up. Yeah,
it infuriates me and I will never forget this. There's
a there's a and I like the publication for the

(37:18):
most part, but like there's a Mother Jones piece where
it's like, oh, the the dapper white supremacists walking through
town like that, I I feel like I it's like
burned into my memory of like what are we doing,
what are we normalizing, what are we glamorizing? What are
we giving a platform? And the thing that bucks with
me is I worry that we learned nothing. I worry

(37:40):
that when I when I look at like how the
media is covering somebody like Rhonda Santas for instance, I
worry that we have learned nothing. The media has learned
nothing about what kind of hateful, bullshit ideology they will
amplify and normalize. Despite the fact that he's like rentalizing

(38:00):
trans youth and ship and like putting, you know, putting
immigrants on busses and ship, like rewriting history books. It
infuriates me the way that this kind of like horse
race kind of political converage is going. I see us
poised to do the same thing again where I see
these memes about like Rhonda Santis it's tall or like
things like that, where like, yeah, he's also like a

(38:21):
hate monger. Can we talk about that? Right? They're just
so desperate to move on from Trump, even though they're not.
I think there's just this. I mean, that's like our
political system is such especially and the media is like following.
The political system is so reliant on the idea that
there are two rational actors. Obviously, we have all of
two parties in this country, and they're both rational and

(38:44):
they're both great, and we can level with them, and
you know, it's a balance of powers. And it's like, no,
it's not, it's bullshit. The one side doesn't believe in
a balance of powers. They believe in authoritarianism. But yeah,
you're you're, you're absolutely right. I'm because it is exactly that.
Rhonda Santis is the buttoned up Donald Trump and Richard
Spencer is the buttoned up David Duke. Right, And so

(39:07):
as long as he's not openly saying he's a member
of the KKK. It's all good and well. Even though
people hild Hitler in his little you know, like hotel
speech when Trump won, that's fine because he's in a
suit and he's got a nice haircut. Yeah, I God,
I want us to be better. We did. We deserve
a better we did. We deserve better media that can
like tell a better version of these stories that isn't

(39:30):
so harmful, Like like I'm exhausted because I know we're
not going to get it. Yeah. And also there's enough
on the Democratic side, Like there's enough, and we got
a lot of like conservative Dems. There's tons of drama
on this side. Talk about those folks. But anyway, I
beg Chris. So, while all of this was happening to Kia,

(39:56):
her husband James was in very poor health and he
had to have open heart search. So I know, like
this ship had to be stressful for her, and so,
perhaps not surprisingly, ten days after she won the Democratic
nomination for a third term as state representative, she announced
that she was dropping her campaign and packed up and
left town shortly thereafter for her family's safety. Um, she

(40:17):
this is really sad, Like she talks about how her son,
who at the time was seven, saw the threats that
she got, like saw them and like understood them and
had questions about them, and was so scared that he
built a tried to build a panic room in their
home out of his closet. It's like it is scary

(40:38):
and sad. And after she left town, Mish was quoted
as saying, I won. I did it, so yeah, just
a real piece of ship. Good for you, asshole. I
hope it's given. You know, he's still unhappy, isn't that crazy?
I think he's still unhappy. He's still insufferable, that's for sure.

(41:00):
This is this is the threat of equality. This is
what I mean. I love it, Like you want social justice, Like,
what are you talking about? This is a predominantly white state,
a predominantly white electorate, predominantly white you know whatever state.
Body Like, in no way is she trying again by

(41:22):
her mere existence, her mere existence and the threat, the
supposed threat of one day there could be equality, one
day there could be two keya Morris is, Oh my
godture and and then it'll be all over. I mean,
we'll still have the power, white dudes, but we'll feel

(41:44):
like we don't because someone's gonna quote Audrey Lord to
us and what or like someone's gonna like want to
create a program for black youth in our state. Like,
So this story does not end there, because if you're thinking, wow,

(42:04):
it sounds like officials didn't do a great job of
taking the situation seriously or investigating it, you would be right.
After Kia left office, she fouled a complaint with Vermont's
Human Rights Commission in twenty nineteen alleged discrimination by the
police department and the Town of Bennington. An investigation found
that the Bennington police chief failed to disclose relevant information
about her harasser to her, including his possession of high

(42:27):
capacity firearms and details of an interview that they did
with his ex wife where she expressed concern for Kia's safety.
The investigator recommended that the commission find reasonable grounds at
the town of Bennington discriminated against her on the basis
of race and color, and the town had to publicly
apologize and agreed to pay her a hundred and thirty
seven thousand dollars. So, yeah, they didn't properly investigate it.

(42:49):
They withheld information that frankly, she should have been informed of,
and they just like didn't take it seriously. And when
online threats of an online abuse are not take and
seriously by people with power, dangerous things can happen. It
can get really really scary. And honestly, like I am
grateful that she it didn't it didn't come to like

(43:11):
actual physical violence that that that like, you know, it
didn't wind up like that, but it's so easily could have.
M oh obviously, And it's like and I mean essentially
she was paid to kind of go away, you know,
like yeah, yeah, there's a settlement. I would argue it's
very low, but it's just like, well, that's the cost
of doing business and attempting to be a black woman

(43:34):
in the state legislature like or in leadership by like anyway, sorry,
it's um and and I think it's also interesting because
you see, again there's like most it's a white people problem.
Like I'm reminded of W. Kmal Bells, like you know,
come get your boy when it comes to Trump. And
it's in terms of what happened to Kia, it's like

(43:55):
it's not a Kia problem, it's everybody else problem. And
you see, like you know, some of the white you know,
officials or police officers, folks around, and I think it's like,
you know, you guys are the ones who have a
lot of work to do. It's a you you all problem.
It's it's not a key of problem. So how is
this systemic? And um and yeah, and also when are

(44:16):
we going to get to the idea that once everyone
is liberated, once there is equality, that will mean or
once the most marginalized are liberated, I mean liberty and
equality and freedom for everybody. Sorry, I've got to practice
that part before I run for president. Yeah, I mean
I would vote for you tomorrow. Thank thanks, thanks, hell. Yeah.

(44:41):
So these stories are obviously heartbreaking, but I also think
they show the true cost of to all of us
of what happens when things like online harassment and abuse
just go unchecked. And we know this, this kind of
harassment keeps marginalized people from running for office. You know,
I'm sad to say that. I think a lot of
people we'll hear about the experiences of women like this

(45:02):
and they'll be like, oh, well, that's just the cost
of being a public figure to deal with it. But
we deserve a political landscape where like this is not
just the cost of wanting the sort of your community,
especially but not cost is so much higher for the
most marginalized among us. Absolutely, I mean I think that
I think with the latest mid terms of the fact
that like young people came out in droves and that

(45:22):
you had, you know, the squad growing with a lot
of young folks and specifically young people of color, we
will stop normalizing this kind of crap and because there
will be just more of it, because there will be
more women in office, there will be more people of
color in office, which is a good thing, but then
this is the crap that comes along with it, and
so it's like not to mention the fact that younger

(45:44):
generations are god, I mean, from middle school dealing with
online harassment from peers from Rando's like it's just gone,
or the days of random A o L chats and
me logging in being like I am blonde, sexy lady. Hello.
I'm just talking about how I was on the internet

(46:04):
as a kid. That's how I was too. I was like, yes,
that's how I was to write right, and you're like
now it's like, oh no, there's consequences and everyone's using
their real name and like people are stalking you and
what what um not that that wasn't happening then. But
so I feel like, especially since young folks are also
more Internet savvy and online harassment savvy and experience it,

(46:27):
we will arrive at a point, Bridget, and you will
be vindicated and all of your work in this show
and everything that you've been sounding the alarm on, I
know we will be vindicated. But it's just gonna take
a while. It's gonna give us like a decade, which
is too long, but I feel like we will arrive

(46:47):
in another point where this ship is just not as normalized. Yeah,
I actually agree with you. I think that, like you know,
we've seen historic numbers of young folks, women, people of
color running for office in this last cycle, and I
just think that we are different. I don't I don't think.
I don't think that we're going to tolerate this. And
I think that we are going to hold people with power,

(47:08):
whether it's legislators or policymakers or tech leaders, We're going
to force them to, you know, do what they can
to to create a situation where this isn't the norm,
because this is not this is not a functional democracy,
This is not a healthy democracy when this is how
the political landscape and the media landscape that people are

(47:30):
trying to compete it. It's just not healthy. It's not
a functional democracy. And I think young people are are
are smart enough to see that totally. And as and
and our Senate and our Congress are old. You guys
remember you remember when Zuckerberg testified, uh like a few
years ago, and it's like you got senators being like
a Mr Zuckerberg, what is the fire stand for? In

(47:52):
why five? Because I think why is wireless? Well what
is the five? You know? Just like like Mrs jul
what is my password to my Amazon account? Like the
most luddite as Senate? Right, And that's gonna change. And

(48:12):
I think when that change, as we slowly change it, yes,
we will hopefully have more protections. Yeah, it's so frustrating
to watch those hearings where it's like the people who
are in charge of making our policies around technology, like
I forget who what lawmaker? It was? What was like
will you commit to ending sense to and are you talking?
Like what are you saying? Sir? Like what are you saying?

(48:36):
And these are the people like I mean it. And
I also it also starts with getting like more young
people in office because like we just I mean, I
was just gonna say, and surrounding them too, you know,
likely supporting, like getting aide, you know, asked the staffers.
Ten per cent of Senate is made up of men
named John. That's like a real thing, like spelled to

(48:59):
different ways, but end percent of Senate or John, Yeah,
that is a solid name when you're born in nineteen
twenty nine. Yeah, when you're a white guy who watched
the moon landing, Yeah, that's and so you know, when
it comes to these kinds of attacks and arrestments that

(49:19):
we're seeing, something I think is really interesting in telling
is that it seems like the goal of these attacks
is too really destroy marginalized candidates they're resolved, and to
get them to internalize this abuse that is directed at them.
This is from the folks who did the study um
at the Center for Democracy and Technology that they wanted
that these candidates felt very strong with that that the

(49:41):
point of this kind of harassment was to just get
them to internalize and accept the oppression that they face
as women and women of color and just drop out
of politics. And so you see that that has an
incredibly like silencing effect, you know, and unfortunately in the
research bears this out that these kinds of threats do
keep women from running for office or just sort of

(50:02):
engaging in public life in general or civic life, because
they're smart enough to see the way that other women
are treated. They see the way that law enforcement and
media really do nothing or make it worse, and they're like,
no fucking thanks, I don't want to deal with it,
you know. Just this afternoon, Nancy Pelosi announced that she's
ending her career in politics on the heels of that
horrific hammer attack against her husband, who not only was

(50:23):
attacked after being attacked, elected officials on like political figures
like and Elon Musk spread homophobic conspiracy theories about the attack,
joked about it, and part of me, it's like, I
can understand why she's just like, I'm out. You know,
when a woman runs for office or is a public
figure and she is attacked, it is never just her.
It is her partner, It is her kids, and here's

(50:45):
her parents, it is her community. And I can understand
why women are just like, you know, the cost is
just too high. I don't I don't want to put
myself or my family at risk to run for public office.
And so I'm not gonna do it or I'm gonna
check out of it. I can understand that. And so
I think if women can't run for public office safely,
then we will never have a truly representative democracy or

(51:07):
a functional democracy in general. You know, the author of
that report said, a lack of representation means that we
lose the important insights and solutions to public policy problems
that women of color will bring. We will all suffer.
We all suffer if everyone does not have a seat
at the table. And I could not agree more like,
it is not just about the women who are attacked

(51:27):
and targeted. All of us lose out when we don't
even have a shot at a at a landscape where
people can safely serve their public through running for office. Absolutely.
I mean, look, I'm not the biggest fan of Pelosi,
but I do respect the hell out of her, and
what I will say, with people like her and also
people like Clinton, I wish they would do what Monica
Lewinski has done. Um, and I think that's part and

(51:49):
partial effect of Monica Lewinski is a little younger, but
like taking her the public um, the scrutiny, the harassment,
what she was put through and use sing it to
actually try and change the culture. And I think that
Hillary and Nancy Pelosi come from more of a generation
that's like you gotta like go you know, basically shut

(52:10):
up and get along and like um like whatever it is,
like get along to go along. I'm really terrible with
any kind of idioms today, but you know what I mean,
like we we right and so and it's like it's like, no,
I don't think. I think we're done with that. And
I think that young women and all people are done
with the like no, you have to shut up in
order to appease these systems and halls of power. It's like, no,

(52:33):
you don't. And and so I hope that Nancy Pelosi
in her because she's not gonna rest. This one is
never gonna rest until she's dead. Like she's gonna keep
on working. And I hope she uses you know, um,
her time to try and not cut the ladder from
out underneath her, but help young women also accelerate and
succeed in politics as well. She hasn't got a great

(52:55):
track record with that, gonna be real. She jumped on
a little bit of the anti squad, anti il Han Omar,
you know, calling elhan Omar anti semitic when she totally
was not being anti Semitic. So, Nancy, you know, I
hope you do better. Thank you for your service. I
agree with you. Like Monica Lewinsky, it is she's She's
my White Whale podcast guest because I think the way

(53:17):
that she has turned something that was like meant to
silence her and belittle her, she turned it into a
platform and she really changed the conversation about online shaming
and online harassment and online bullying. And I respect the
hell out of it. Monica, if you're listening, please call me.
You're my White Whale guest. She did that that Ted

(53:40):
talk about the price of shame, that's right, and she
she has a really good duck. She's in a really
good documentary called fifteen Minutes of Shame on HBO Max,
which everyone should watch, all about online shaming. Um. But yeah,
I agree. I hope that this becomes a kind of
situation where women are not expected to suffer in silence
and and have a kind of like poised face because

(54:04):
you know, it doesn't serve anybody. And it's funny because
in an interview I listened to with Kia. She was asked,
she said that she said that so many people were like,
you should just ignore this. You don't, You shouldn't stoop
to their level. You should just ignore it. And I'm
so glad that she didn't ignore it, because it started
a conversation about what is and it's not acceptable in discourse.
And you know, if you ignore it, it just festers

(54:25):
and gets more empowered. And so the advice of just
saying like, oh, rise above, you know, go high, don't
go low and ignore it. You're too good to respond,
I don't think that advice is really serving anybody, particularly
if you're marginalized or you're like a young person who's
coming up on this like online next generation. Yes, absolutely,
And I think it's why a lot of people who
are harassed incessantly often post um those d m s

(54:50):
or that harassment um or the you know, air the
voicemails that you know, people like Ao serial Han nomar
get Um or Primelagia Paul, who I believe was threatened
as well. Yeah, and it's like, yeah, more folks need
to understand this is a daily occurrence before we actually
like take it seriously. Um and whether or not PEP

(55:12):
Baila Maximish understands it. I mean, he's not getting paid
by anybody, but he's absolutely part and parcel of this
system designed to like, yeah, keep women and people of
color out of any kind of decision making process over
their lives exactly. And I'm so glad that you put
it that way, because this was my my whole intention

(55:33):
behind this podcast is that it's so easy to think
that when someone is being targeted in this way, it's individual,
and certainly it has individual impacts, of course, but it's
also institutional. It's also systems. It's also you know, power
structures that enable it or you know, amplify it or
profit off of it. Right, it's and so we need

(55:54):
to start picking apart and calling out all of the
systems that make this kind of harassment a viable thing
for people to do, and break those systems and say
we're not going to tolerate this. If you want to
engage in this kind of discourse, we're not going to
amplify it, we're not going to incentivize that. You're not
going to be able to build a platform off of it,
and it's not going to be effective. You're gonna pay
two dollars for that d M. Yes, honestly I would

(56:16):
accept some like harassing d ms if I got two
hundred dollars every time. Okay, yeah, you gotta give me
five bucks, but yeah, say whatever you want need to
say to me, s j W cool what um catching Exactly,
it's like a cameo but for hate. Yes you need
to you need to like pitch this to some venture capitalists, Bran.

(56:37):
But that's the whole thing that the irony is exactly
what you're saying, which is these platforms already pay for
they get that stuff for free. They're the ones making
money off of the hate. It's going into their pocket.
And it's like I would say, I mean, like I
would argue that marginalized people, we are absorbing the hate
to make tech leaders more money and externality of capitalism.

(57:03):
And that's the thing. What if Google was like, listen, Bridget,
if you get trolled, I'll give you two hundred dollars
every time, like every like hateful tweet that I might,
I'd be like, that's that that would be a good solution.
It would certullly incentivize them to you know, fix the problem,
which is all we're asking for. And I guess this

(57:23):
is my like overall point. You know, we especially in
the Democratic Party, we love our slogans like support black women, Yes,
trust black women, like I have a Trust black Women shirt,
and I am all on board for like championing the
leadership with black women. But we can't just say, you know,
support black women without also being honest about the unfair, racist,
sexist attacks and harassment that they will they will probably

(57:45):
face when they get into these leadership roles that we
like are vocally supporting them for. And so we need
to be creating the conditions that those women that we
love to champion also have a chance at an equal
playing field, that we're not just setting them up to
be knocked down, to have to like you know, abandoned
their office and leave town because of harassment and threats
and garbage. Amen. And we didn't even talk about Castangi

(58:09):
Brown Jackson, but my mind went to her as well. Yes,
coming coming soon, coming, so great, example, coming awesome. That
is all I have from There is like no one
else that I would rather have dug into all this
with than you. And I appreciate you taking the time
after you've, you know, had so much going on so

(58:32):
much going on babies. Probably it's been two hours time
to feed yet again, I'm gonna go soak my aching nipples. Guys,
that's am I deal with it. We need to support
women much more. Um but yeah, Bridget, this has been
awesome and um, I mean awful. But also like people

(58:56):
like you're like, oh, yeah, there's hope, there is hope.
You make me feel very hopeful. And where can folks
follow you and what you're up to? Yeah, dude, follow
me on all things at Franny fo f R A
n I f I oh and then the Bituation Room
as a podcast. It's also a live stream every Tuesday
one pm Pacific four pm Eastern on YouTube and twitchy. Internet.

(59:20):
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