March 16, 2022 • 41 mins
Alexis Floyd shares the unique bond and parallels she shared with the real-life Neff, the kind of sisterhood displayed between Neff and Anna on screen, and the importance of being an archaeologist when you are listening to the story of others. She and Stacey dig into specific scenes, especially from episode 5 (Neff’s episode), and offer unique takes on the role of race and class in the series.
To catch up before you listen, make sure you binge Inventing Anna the series on Netflix now.
Please rate, review, subscribe and share Inventing Anna: The Official Podcast with everyone you know.
Follow Alexis Floyd @alexisgfloyd on Instagram and Twitter, and follow host Stacey Wilson Hunt @galinhollywood.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shonda
Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the
making of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your host,
Stacy Wilson Hunt, and today I'm happy to share a
(00:21):
particularly profound conversation I had with actor Alexis Floyd about
her role as Anna's rider die Nef Davis. We talked
about what it was like to have the real Nef
on set during production, as well as some of the
show moments that have come to me the most to
Alexis herself. Hi, Alexis, it's so nice to have you here.
(00:45):
Congratulations on the show. Thank you so much, such a privilege.
Really it's changed my life. Thank you. So before we
talk about Inventing Anna, I would actually love to know
more about what your life was like in New York
before the series, and I know there are some sort
of them attic mostovers between you and Nef, So tell
me a little bit about that. Yes, So, I was
actually working at a front desk myself for a yoga
(01:08):
studio in the Chelsea area of Manhattan. So I was
very familiar with that balance of you know, hi, how
are you above the desk? Joys here? And then below
the desk, you're texting your mom, you're putting out a fire,
you're trying to put a flight. Um. I like that
idea of like above the desk and below the desk,
like two worlds, right, two worlds, two worlds and and
(01:28):
one is sort of constructed to be a land of
endless possibilities and I can do anything for you and
it's no skin off my back. And then below the surface,
you know the storm that you're trying to quiet. I've
had those jobs too. It's it's not an easy thing
to do, not an easy thing to do. It takes
a lot of energy. And you know, that's part of
(01:50):
what I also connected with nef about is then you
want to have energy at the end of your day
to pour into your art, to focus on your dreams,
to be creative. And sometimes you've come home and the
most creating you can do is ordering pizza. Right. And
on the subject of dreams, what were your dreams? At
that point, I definitely was trying to make a transition
(02:13):
into the film and television world in a more sort
of sustainable place. I had the privilege of being on
the Bold type, which is a free form shows. Congrats
on that, thank you and it and it lit the
dream alive in a really vibrant way, um in terms
of knowing that I will always have a home in
theater and want to come home to it as often
(02:35):
as I can. And I just found a different sort
of engagement with film that I hadn't had a chance
to explore much in my life previous to the show.
I just loved the environment and the pace. I love
the intimacy of a camera. I loved the collaborative nature
of all of these departments problem solving together. And it
(02:55):
just felt so inherently kind of creative in this like immediate,
really buzzy way. And you're also a musician too, I am, yes,
trying to find a balance of all of that, sort
of like honing in my creative language and the avenues
that I want to use to speak. It was all
on my mind at the time that I was cleaning
(03:17):
mats and checking people into class. I have to say
I've always felt for anyone who has to clean those
yoga mouts after class. Oh it's not a joke, yes,
And the smells and you know, it's not their fault,
like that's me when I get out of class too,
But it's deep. That is so true. So take me
(03:37):
back to then when you first found out about inventing
Anna the series, and how you through your hat in
the ring to have a part in the show, specifically
to plain enough. Yes, So I received the script they
were looking at me for enough, and the first thing
I did was sort of just google the Annadelte universe
because I hadn't come across the article previously reading the script. Okay,
(04:01):
so you were kind of coming into this cold. I was, yes,
which isn't to my full surprise because I'm a little
bit of a social media recluse by the way, not
always a bad thing, I think, No, no, not always
healthy for me largely, so you know, And all you
have to do is type Anna du into Google and
it's delby Stork in New York. Like it just it
(04:24):
was endless upon impact, which was really exciting. And then
the first piece I really dove into was the main
source material of the piece, the cut article. And what's
really intriguing about that for me specifically as I'm trying to,
you know, start to wait into next waters is She's
kind of our narrator. She's our first eyes into the story.
(04:47):
She's the first person that we see in Anna's life
who is looking at her and taking in her energy.
She's kind of our primary source from the beginning. So
that was really exciting for me, and that in reading
the script, Shanda celebrating that as well, that she's kind
of our home base. She's where we check back in
with ourselves and where we settle when there's a moment
(05:08):
that the glitter storm of the show, you know, starts
to subside, and we're New Yorkers ourselves, and we're in
that hustle and we have our own sort of ambitions
and like that centerpiece I think Nef was like largely
responsible for in this narrative. No, it's a great point
and this idea too, that we come back to what
the show is the the protagonist whom we can't trust,
(05:31):
right and Nef is the person actually in the space
who we trust first. I think so, and then you know,
as we learn more about Anna, we still find ourselves
able to come home to her and we know where
her loyalty is really grounded. So that was exciting. And
then I made the tape and uh, my friend who
I taped with was not enthusiastic about it, and I
(05:55):
was like, oh, enthusiastic about the project or your performance
in the tape. I think my performance if I'm being honest,
which you know, you never know, You just never know.
And I was going in for a lot of work
at the time, and who knows. Two weeks later, I
got a call from my managers and they said, Shonda
(06:18):
doesn't need to see anymore. She just wants to sit
down with you. She's never seen your work before and
hasn't had a chance to engage with you as an artist.
And so that's what we did. We got on Zoom.
We just got to know each other a little bit,
and it was really thrilling to have this kind of
dramaturgical character study discussion with Shonda and Betsy, who are
just two of the most brilliant women, really special, yes,
(06:41):
and the two of them have a really strong collaboration
and friendship. They've built so many of our greatest storytelling
worlds in television together. There are a power duo. A
power duo can do anything. We'll do everything and tell me.
From that first Zoom chat with Betsy and Shawna, What
did you most take away from the way they envisioned
(07:05):
the series and specifically envisioned enough. Well, they broke down
for me that they were going to have each episode
center on a different character in the Anna Delvy Marvel universe,
if you will, which I thought was brilliant because then
we're seeing all of these different perspectives from all sorts
(07:28):
of like New York culture points, who all found something intriguing, fascinating, scary,
you know, enticing about Anna Delvy, and it just helps
us build this momentous energy around this mysterious woman. I
just thought that was so intelligent, and with Nef specifically,
I mean, I remember one of the first things Shawanda
(07:48):
said to me so simply was I love this woman.
And I could hear it in her voice, you know.
In the character description she describes her as Barack Obama
meets Beyonce. Wow, that's a tall order, Lexis, Oh, you're
telling me, but also an honor and I mean, what
an exciting space to take up. And it also again
(08:10):
it just spoke to this kind of like you can
trust this woman. This woman is a hard worker, She
studied of her own craft, she has her own things,
to say, and she wants to make a splash on
the scene just as much as Anna does, which was
exciting too. I knew I was going to be working
with an artist, never herself and someone who loves and
(08:30):
is passionate about her own voice storyteller, which is an
exciting place to come into this. Absolutely, And you did
have access to the real enough, And I'd love to
know at what point during this process you met her
and what were your impressions of her. Yes, it was
actually the first thing I did. I I reached out
to her on Instagram. She was immediately responsive and excited,
which you know, probably a huge exhale. And of course
(08:54):
I love that you first met the Instagram. That's very enough, right,
very Anna. Yes, that is like a huge territory where
it went down between the two of them. And Nef
has a beautiful Instagram herself, this film colors Instagram. She
does all this educational work and film theory as She's
just so impressive to me, um and that was clear
upon meeting her as well. We had dinner actually Adam
(09:16):
Moroccan restaurant in Brooklyn. We found out we lived twenty
minutes walking from each other. Just another you know point
of synergy, and she was so generous that first night.
We spent truly three and a half hours together and
she let me record a little bit just for the
two of us. But I was just really struck by
(09:38):
her energy. That Barack Beyonce intersection. It does live in her.
By the way, did she know about how Shonda had
described this character. She must have felt pretty good about
herself to hear it describe it. I brought it up
at dinner, and I know it felt good, and I
know it felt good. But also she's one of those
(09:58):
people who owns that. I think she really owns the
space she takes up. Her worth is so inherent in
her and it's something she's worked really hard to build
and keep and protect despite working, you know, in the
service industry while balancing her dreams. And I think that
she knows the artist that she is, She knows the
(10:20):
story she has to tell, and it keeps her strong.
So it was really beautiful to see this young woman
take up this space and be excited to share her
story with the world. And I feel like Shonda was
the woman to do it and have that trust special. Yeah,
and it's difficult with these true stories you know, you
don't want to rely on the real people for permission necessarily,
(10:41):
and much like Jessica experiences as a journalist, you don't
want to hurt people with telling this story. You want
them to feel comfortable with how someone like Shawna's going
to own it and then translate it for TV. It's true,
and you know, you know in in the hands of Shanda,
you're going to get a well rounded, very taken care
of character who experiences the entire spectrum of the human
(11:04):
condition and emotional space. So I had that as well,
knowing that the script was taking good care of her,
but I wanted to make sure I did my job too.
I love that seems like the perfect environment to tell
a good story, right, That's right Land. Okay, there's a
land for a reason. It's a magical place where good
stories are told. Okay, amen. So I would love to
(11:26):
know what version of Anna do we see through Enough
and what does that version ultimately reveal about Enough herself, Yes,
especially because Anna is pretty calculating in terms of which
Anna she's showing to whom. So what I think is
special about their relationship is I think Anna is artist
Anna with nef and of course, the entrepreneurial energy is there,
(11:50):
But first and foremost, she's the Anna who loves wearing
black and knows exactly why. On an emotional level, you know,
she's the Anna who to any one park because she
loves the architecture, she loves the way the light comes in,
she loves the floor plan. She's seeing the dreams. She
can taste the food already, she's hearing the music. She
(12:13):
wants neft to maybe find the DJ for their opening night,
like she can dream with Nev and they both have
this kind of dream energy that they get to bubble
in and enjoy with one another, and it confirms that
this thing that is not yet real that people are
telling them might not ever be real, is real and
(12:33):
a part of them, and they can share the reality
of their dreams together. And I think that's sort of
like artists communal space that they share is unique in
their friendship. And that's beautifully said. And the word that
comes up for me a lot between them and their
rapports curation. I think they each have this love of curation,
whether it's a space, a look, music, experiential in the
(12:59):
sense when someone walks into the lobby of Nef's hotel.
Every need that person has wants to be met in
that moment, and I feel like Anna shares that It's
so true, and it's the extra step of, you know,
honoring what the space is asking them to do and
then making their own mark, you know, Like Nef has
to wear a uniform every day, but she chooses her pen,
(13:21):
she chooses her hair accessories. She maybe put on a
red lip, you know, maybe she does a press out,
maybe she lets her curls out. But these are all
decisions she makes to say, yes, I am here and
I'm a part of this experience, and I am very
good at my job. But there's also something about me
that is creative and that can curate this experience because
(13:42):
of the knowledge I have. And Anna used the power
of that same that display to move into rooms and
seem impressively young but also incredibly intelligent, and like that
was all done with this sort of visual communication that
they were both very experienced in. I have to say
I love the uniform. It's one of my favorite outfits
(14:04):
in the show. She looks so chic, Like Lin Paullo
can even make a uniform fly. The costume designer Lin
Pallo famously also did Scandal and How to get Away
with Murder and um, she just she speaks clothing like
it's Champagne. I can't explain it. She's just one of
a kind, their characters, unto themselves, all of her creations,
(14:25):
that's it. And they do so much of the work
for you. I mean, you put it on and and
I'm seventy five percent Neff already for the day, you know.
And what do you think Anna in those early days
picks up or learns from Neff because she seems so
intrigued by her, and not only as a friend, but
I think she almost is sort of like learning from
her from that first moment they meet. I think that's right. Well,
(14:48):
on a really practical level, you know, Neff is also
the person who was getting her on these exclusive lists.
She's truly handing Anna the keys to the kingdom of
New York. So Nef is doing a lot of educating
in terms of spaces, you know, because so much of
New York is kind of hidden away, Like there are
so many layers to the city, and you can think
(15:10):
you're walking through a barbershop and then you look in
the back and there's another door, and then you like
knock three times and a bouncer opens it and you
walk in and you're in like a Neon futuristic club.
So NEF knows the doors behind the doors, behind the
doors that you can't necessarily google, but you just have
to know from having been a veteran of the city.
And NEF is meaning Anna when she's been living here
(15:32):
about ten years and she's working, as she describes it,
in the people business, so she knows these cues, you know,
inside and out. At twelve George, if you're a guest
and we want to keep you happy, it's my job
to get you on the right data base. If you
want the right database, you'll receive every invite, you'll enter
every VP entrance, You'll always get a ticket, always get
(15:54):
a table. And I got Anna's name or some of
the most exclusive database. So Anna's learning a little bit
of the walk the posture, and she's really getting the
behind the scenes tour through NEF. And then in return
for that, not only she getting these tips, but she's saying,
come with me, Come be at this party with me.
(16:14):
You deserve to be here. I see it in your art,
I I see it in your spirit. They really saw
each other. It was It's a really intimate friendship that
they had. It's so true. And I love the idea
of the gatekeepers as the people with all the power.
We see that in Hollywood. You know, if you want
the dish, you have to be nice to assistance, right,
(16:34):
never be mean to the people who are the gatekeepers,
to the power players. And I think that something that
nef knew from day one, because she herself is that
person exactly. And and there's so much I think she
has so much pent up energy from having to like
stay cool, from the way that she was misjudged, misunderstood,
mistreated in the workspace, but also just in the space
(16:56):
of the city, in the space of this world and
being seen by Anna was hugely validating. And then the
fact that Anna said not just open the door for me,
but walk through it with me. It was life changing. Okay,
we're taking a short break, Stay tuned, Welcome back. Behind
(17:26):
the scenes of Inventing Anna An. Episode two, even though
it's early on in this series, is really sort of
a Gangbusters episode for all the characters. Beautifully written by
Matt Burne, and there's this incredible moment between neph and
Rachel that sort of stand off about visiting Anna in prison,
(17:48):
and Rachel, of course, is sort of like, hey, I'm
done with this drama. And you have that great speech
where you address this idea of the purchase of a
black woman. I mean, yet, she may have bought some
of my clothes, but you, I mean you let her
buy you. She watch your time, she watch your call
me again. So now come on, try me step up
here and discuss the purchase of this black woman. Because
(18:11):
I am that you ain't too correct your face. I
got chills just saying those words, and I know that,
and Matt said they came straight from Shonda, straight from
her brain. I would love for you to talk about
the meaningfulness of that scene, in particular to nef but
also the story at large. That moment was extraordinary right
upon impact just reading it on the page. There's another
(18:35):
moment I think that highlights the same thing, where um,
Rachel and Anna are getting their hair done and Neff
is along for the ride and Rachel was originally also
just along for the ride. But then Anna turns to
Rachel shows off her hair. Rachel's I wish I could
look like that, and Anna just looks at the woman
(18:57):
and says do her too, And suddenly Rachel hops into
Anna's chair thrown and has her hair done in the
same fashion as Anna. And there's just no chance that
in that salon Nef is going to be able to
be attended to or celebrate it in that way. Um,
(19:17):
why is that? Black women? For a long time, the
only chance that I was going to have to have
my hair done in a salon like that was if
I had it relaxed, if I had my curls, you know,
basically pressed out. Um, the way you walk into the
room already requires some kind of explanation if you want
(19:40):
to be seen or have a seat at the table,
you already are catching up. And Anna is dealing with
that on some levels. But I think Neff also has
a moment in episode five where she explains to Anna
that there's a different kind of swimming upstream that Nef
has had to do in her life. I will be
a director, then what are you waiting? Full It's not
(20:04):
that easy for normal people. Any money and rent not
thanks time. Bullshit this case you say, lap and a
partial to Apia black girl from d C. Don't have
a way, embarasue m not like you. Women like Anna
(20:27):
have a bit of a life raft and the current
is designed to pull them along, whereas for Nev it's
designed to keep her down and keep her drowning. And
the energy that that takes is extraordinary. And communicating that
in colorful language, I mean, Shaanna just has so many graceful, beautiful, funny,
(20:50):
heartbreaking ways of readdressing this idea of I am not
who you think I am when I walk into the
room and I have a story, the importance of being
an archaeologist when you are listening to the story of
others and asking questions and being curious about the depths
(21:12):
of human underneath the skin. Wow, that was beautifully said.
That was really a gorgeous way of interpreting the text.
Thank you, It's all in there. Shanda really does. And
some oftimes her language is just visual, the way that
Nef and Anna can be sitting at the same table
and you'll see that. You know, when Neff speaks, the
(21:34):
air drops out a little bit and the temperature cools,
and people are a little taken aback that she even spoke.
I assume that people met a thought Nef was Anna's assistant,
and why is she speaking out of turn. And there's
just so many ways that Shonda plays with this idea
and shares it with us. So optics are everything, and
(21:56):
I think and on her own way is trying to
destroy x dictations and certainly everything she does is about
I know, you think you know what you're looking at,
but you don't. And then yeah, it's that above the desk,
below the desk thing exactly. It reminds me of that
British show Upstairs Downstairs. It's the same idea of the
workers and the elite, that constant divide between the two.
(22:19):
And yet it's the workers who are creating the environment,
the people who make these luxurious experiences, I mean, those
are people who are then kept out of them. It's
a it's a pretty complex dynamic, it is, to say
the least. Another thing that is prevalent throughout the entire
show is boundaries and how each character struggles in his
(22:41):
or her own way, whether it's Todd, Rachel, etcetera, struggling
to set their own boundaries. With Anna, because she's someone
who clearly has no concept of them. She's constantly pushing,
she has no sense of how she's hurting people in
the moment and Nef herself certainly doesn't seem to have
a problem with this in her work life. She tells
her boss very curtly, I'm going on a break. If
(23:02):
you have an issue with this, not my problem. But
with Anna, we do see her being tested in this
way that she's questioning her own instincts. At what point
in the show do you think she starts to realize, oh,
I'm starting to have boundary problems with this person. I
think it begins at that dinner that they have. I
(23:23):
think that's the first time that Neff's hairs really stand up.
I don't like, I'm just going to a work in
card so I can close out this table. I want
to see our manager. I am the manager. Why don't
get what? No, no, no, no, it's here. I think
until then, she's not just seeing the cash. She's held
(23:45):
it in her hands, she's brought it home to her apartment.
She's seen the experiences, she's seen Anna carry herself in
these rooms, she's seen the paperwork. I mean, she is
behind the scenes looking at the evidence, cold hard in
front of her. But there is that moment where you
know suspicion is already bubbling in the hotel and then
(24:06):
Nef for the first time, feels the anxiety of moving
two hundred dollars from your saving account into your credit
card and watching it leave, you know, before you can
even blink. I mean, it's a it's a really disorienting feeling,
especially for someone like Nef that is so careful and
she has bills and student loans and she's not playing
(24:27):
with her money. So just feeling that and how sort
of out of body that experiences just starts to sort
of disorient her in general. And then Nef, in her
own way, kind of does her due diligence that some
of these banks didn't do, which was she went to
the records herself at her hotel and she looked and
(24:50):
saw that Anna had a six digit outstanding balance, and
that was enough for her. I think too, not necessarily
place a permanent judgment on her, but to make the
I think very intelligent decision to erect a boundary and
to ask for space. Be straight with me now being
(25:14):
so crazy and stopped right there. If you're a hustler,
that's cool to your hustle, but leave me to funk
out of it. I have rent to pay. I have
a real life ship that I have to deal with
I have plans and I will not go down with you.
Do you hear me? Handle your business? She has too
much on the line, and again she is swimming upstream.
(25:37):
There's not going to be a rescue raft if Nev
gets wrapped up in this. For her, especially for talking
about the authorities getting involved, I mean, she can't play
like that, right because again she doesn't have the advantage
that Anna has. That's right. I mean in a lot
of spaces, you know, Neff walks in and she's already
a criminal. We talked about this a lot, you know
(25:58):
in the community. It's when you feel like you are
born into a skin that is guilty upon arrival. You
moved through the world in a different way, and Conning
is not There's the opportunity is not there. Okay, everybody
will be right back right after these messages. Thanks for
(26:32):
sticking around. Now back to the interview. So I would
love to talk about episode five, which is called Checkout Time.
It's next episode. As you've said, each character has his
or her own episode, and there are a couple of
moments I'd love for you to walk us through. First.
One of my favorite moments is the interaction between Nef
(26:53):
and her boyfriend, who, bless his heart, he's maybe doesn't
say it in the smartest way, but he's telling her like,
this woman is scamming you, right, and it's funny you
see her bristle. You say that hilarious line, idiot, you're
from Santa Barbara, Like, what do you know about the hustle? Right?
Check yourself, check, check yourself. But I think in that moment,
(27:13):
and none of us ever wants someone close to us
to tell us something about ourselves that were either in
denial about or just don't want to admit. So walk
me through that scene and to what degree was that
a turning point for her? Yeah? I think it's a
big deal. There's a stillness about that moment. You know. Previously,
she and her boyfriend are on the couch. They're kind
of joking about the fire festival mess. She's not even
(27:36):
really engaged because she's counting her money from Anna, and
so in contrast this scene, she has just given two
hundred dollars to Anna. She comes home and I think
he's waiting up for her in a stillness that is different.
There's a really different tone that they don't often share
with one another. I think of them as having a
pretty fast rapport. They're both pretty fast talking, and I
(27:59):
think that is striking to have someone really on the
inside with her who's been encouraging to an extent, but
like maybe she sort of brushed off his judgments before,
and this feels more almost like an intervention. Your fancy
friend stuck you with a dinner bill you can't afford,
and she got you so wrapped around her finger that
(28:20):
you vouched for this bitch to your boss and you
still don't have her credit card. You've been had, hoodwinked, bamboozled, boom.
You're supposed to be riding this trend to your film.
I don't see no film, and now you out a pocket.
Later in the episode, there's a moment when she's lying
in bed, she's up all night. The storm of confusion
(28:43):
and hurt is sort of buzzing around her, keeping her
from sleeping, and he confronts her again, and this time
it really is personal. It's about how Anna might be
an escape for enough to not have to do the
boots on the groundwork in terms of bringing her her
film into this reality. It's not like you're doing anything.
(29:04):
I finished my novel yesterday. You don't even ask. People
are making feature films on their phones now. Money is
not your problem. You don't think you can do it. Look,
and a chick might be crazy, but I agree with
her on one thing. You want something, you have to
(29:25):
do something about it. And it's excuse after excuse after
excuse of why she can't be the engineer of her
own art, why she can't be the captain of her
own ship. And I think that really throws her into
a space of reserve and just sort of like halt
that we don't see that much from this go go
(29:46):
go woman. And I think it's a huge confrontation with herself.
It's something I don't know that she was ready to hear,
but it rings true in that spooky scary way, you know, yeah, absolutely,
And you know none of us can blame MEF in
that moment for wanting this life preserver. At that annus
right out saying, Hey, you don't have to keep working
(30:06):
as hard as you've been working. It doesn't have to
be this hard. I'm gonna give you a little shortcut.
I'm gonna help you figure out ways to circumvent the system.
I mean, none of us could resist that, and it's
just too tempting. And when it's been years and years
of trying to get it done and you are exhausted
from again trying to maintain this balance of work and
(30:30):
life and relationship and your dream and it feels like
you are the only person who believes in you. This
was a once in a lifetime opportunity to have real
wind under her wings, So the potential of that suddenly
being not there anymore, on top of just the confrontation
she's having of why can't I do this? You can't
(30:53):
help the question yourself why it isn't working and what
is it about me? And that I think is also
in the design of the system, is to infuse you
with self doubt so that you don't have the energy
to push through. And so many people do and their
heroes to me, and they're all over this country, this world,
but it is definitely not built for your success. Very true.
(31:17):
And I always come back to Mindy Kaleen's refraid of
why not me? Why not me? And it's funny I
heard that in my head all the time, and I
see that in this character too. She has to keep
tuning out the naysayers and just keep telling herself, why
not me? Why not me? In a lot of ways Anna,
even though Anna thinks she's helping, she really does throw
enough off her game in a lot of ways. It's true.
(31:39):
It's it's a bit distracting, you know, the glitz and
the glamour. It feels good. And I think Nef enjoys
being in the spaces because in some ways maybe she's
trying to soak up that validation, like Okay, I'm here.
I'm here, and not think so much about why or
how or for how long. But just if I can
just be in these races and I can like tell
(32:01):
my body that I belong in these spaces, and maybe
I can make it true that way. But it's true.
We start to see her sort of move from center
a bit where she once had that sense of worth
entirely from within herself, and she starts to sort of
spiral away from that center point when Anna comes along,
(32:23):
and then of course we have the great competition between
the two when she finally says out loud, I have
planned I will knock go down with you handle your business,
And it was almost like a parent child interaction, This
like discipline that she never wanted to have to exert
over her friend, and you really do see Anna one
of the very few moments where Anna seems to have
(32:43):
fear in her eyes. It's extraordinary, so well written, and
especially because I think it connects back to that other
moment in the episode where the two of them are
kind of lying in bed at three am and they're
kind of having this like girls Nights, Safe Space sleepover
dream athon. I'm really really drunk, I think, and it's
(33:10):
really sweet and just kind of born naturally out of
the end of the night energy. But they talk about family,
and it's one of the only times in the series
where you really hear Anna be vulnerable about her family
and what their wishes for her were and how that
impacted her to the point where she she slips and
she speaks about how she didn't grow up with money,
(33:32):
and next sort of gently questions and then she she
gets back on track. But I think that speaks so
much to the uniqueness of their connection and how they
were starting to feel like family to one another. They
really have a sisterhood by the time we get to
that place in the episode, So for your Sister, which
is how they are to me at this point in
(33:53):
the show to confront you and say you're not doing
it sis, and you're not bringing me with you. It's
time to grow up is extraordinary. I mean, Anna has
no family around her at this point, and so the
sister that she's now welcomed into her life has now
(34:14):
started to turn a cold shoulder pretty abruptly on her.
It's love, it's a loss of love. I think that
we see in her eyes as much as fear, and
we do feel empathy for Anna, even though she makes
it very difficult. She does, my goodness, and that testament
to Julia's performance and the writing. I'm just so thankful
(34:35):
that this show treats her like a full human being,
because there's a lot of narratives out there about whether
or not that's even true, if she's missing something, and
I think she's fully there, which just raises the stakes
and and makes us confront these dynamics within ourselves of
having to play pretend right. Very true, and it's interesting
(34:56):
with all of this hurt and confusion. On next part,
there are two miles to moments toward the end of
the series where we still see this undying loyalty and
love for Anna. The first moment, which I love the
minute the articles in Times Square and she's looking up
and grabbing that guy. That's my girl, that's my girl.
She's still excited for Anna after everything Anna has put
(35:16):
her through. And then of course walk us through the
Trial Style Instagram account and how those two sort of
gushing moments for enough indicate this undying love for this
person who has caused her so much distress. Yes, I
mean I think that's family, you know, like when you've
been going through it a little bit and Christmas was rough,
(35:38):
but they get a new job, you know, after the
new year, and you throw a party, and it's that
unconditional love of of someone who really sees all of you,
and they really built that together in a short amount
of time. So that's what that Time Square moment was
all about from me, just like forget the past, girl,
get it. Like the way that they mirror each other
(35:59):
in some ways, seeing Anna's space up there is seeing
a part of herself up there, and there's something affirming
about that too. So then when it's Trial Style time,
it's complicated, but I think Nef gets the vision, she
gets the dream, and on a family level, she wants
to do anything to keep her sister out of prison.
(36:19):
I mean, that's that's the place I was coming from
at that time. And they can have fun while they
do it, and they can celebrate themselves as artists while
they do it, and they can connect on this safe space.
And in some ways it's a little bit sad because
they're not really unpacking the hurt that they went through
together in the way nef felt fooled by someone that
(36:43):
she trusted. But they can meet on this level where
the two of them, you know, where their friendship first began,
which is, we love to tell our stories. We love
the visual medium for telling our stories. I can help
you do this, And then that's what they do. They
start to craft this narrative and they treat the court
scene like New York Fashion Week, and maybe that's also
helpful for Nev. I mean, I always was thinking about
(37:05):
what it would be like to be in these places
of government authority and discipline in the justice system, and
you know, we we see that moment in episode two
where she's going to visit Anna, and I really it
felt like nightmarish to me, and I think being in
the court space is not that different. And so they
get to sort of reclaim the space and graffiti over
(37:29):
the walls. Metaphorically, this is like the Revenge of the
twenties something woman, Right, It's sort of like, Okay, New York,
you have your old court system, but we have Instagram
and we're gonna throw you off your game and we're
gonna make Anna the center of the circus. And it works.
I mean, we see that all over the place now.
I'm a huge supporter of the Sunrise movement, and it's
(37:51):
it's young people saying Okay, you've had your chance, but
I want a future and I want it now, and
I'm not afraid to change to the rules. You made
the rules, someone made them before you. This was this
has all been created and it can be recreated. And
I see the power in that. And the two of
them get to celebrate that and find a lot of
joy in this dark moment, kind of like infiltrate joy
(38:13):
into this dark moment, Like if we have to go
through this, we may as well have some fun, have
some fun, tell our stories and shake things up and
and say you cannot control me. You can put me
in a cage, but you cannot control the song I sing.
And that's what they're doing. M I love that. And
(38:35):
the last question, how do you think Anna has changed
Nef's life and perception of herself for the duration? I
think Nef will be at least. I am really proud
of the decisions that she made and the ways that
she took care of herself and was sliding down the
slope but sort of got her footing again and was
(38:56):
able to keep a healthy distance but also support her friends.
I mean, that's an They're incredibly difficult balance. This person
has caused me a lot of pain, but they need
my help, and how can I take care of them
but first and foremost take care of myself. And I
really applaud Neff for her grace and doing so, and
how she continues to do so on top of just
(39:17):
the bravery of telling her story as truthfully as she did.
I mean, she really she shared her whole self with us.
I think the nephew see on screen is sort of
a marriage of our friendship the Nef I got to
meet the Nef on the page and parts of Shonda too,
And I think in general, it's it's a celebration of
(39:39):
moving with empathy through the world, but never putting your
own power in someone else's hands. Well, I can't think
of a better way to end this conversation than with that,
So thank you so much. Alexis. The show was so
lucky to have you play this part. Neff was so
lucky to have you play this version of her, and
I know wherever she is she has to be very
(40:00):
happy about this. So thank you so much for your
time and congratulations. Thank you, such a pleasure to talk
with you. Really, thank you, thank you, Thank you so
much for listening. Next week we'll have the pleasure of
dropping back in on Shonda Rhymes with the one and
only Jessica Pressler. Jessica, of course, is the journalist who
(40:22):
wrote the New York magazine story that Shonda adapted into
inventing Anna. They're going to chat about their close collaboration
on the series. You're a little bit reluctant. When I
was like, maybe it's going to be like a big
part of the show. I remember you being like, Okay,
that's yeah. I definitely was like, okay, Like you think
that now, but you're going to write her out of
(40:42):
it later, not so much. If you're enjoying this show, subscribe,
share with your friends, rate, and leave us a review.
All of that good stuff. And if you haven't finished
Shawnda Lance Inventing Anna on Netflix, please go do that.
We really don't want to spoil it for you. Inventing
(41:02):
Anna the Official Podcast is executive produced by Sandy Bailey,
Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and
editor is Nicholas Harder, and the show is produced and
hosted by me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing Anna the Official
(41:25):
Podcast is a production of Shondoland Audio in partnership with
I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Schondeland Audio, visit
the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shonda
Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the
making of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your host,
Stacy Wilson Hunt, and today I'm happy to share a
(00:21):
particularly profound conversation I had with actor Alexis Floyd about
her role as Anna's rider die Nef Davis. We talked
about what it was like to have the real Nef
on set during production, as well as some of the
show moments that have come to me the most to
Alexis herself. Hi, Alexis, it's so nice to have you here.
(00:45):
Congratulations on the show. Thank you so much, such a privilege.
Really it's changed my life. Thank you. So before we
talk about Inventing Anna, I would actually love to know
more about what your life was like in New York
before the series, and I know there are some sort
of them attic mostovers between you and Nef, So tell
me a little bit about that. Yes, So, I was
actually working at a front desk myself for a yoga
(01:08):
studio in the Chelsea area of Manhattan. So I was
very familiar with that balance of you know, hi, how
are you above the desk? Joys here? And then below
the desk, you're texting your mom, you're putting out a fire,
you're trying to put a flight. Um. I like that
idea of like above the desk and below the desk,
like two worlds, right, two worlds, two worlds and and
(01:28):
one is sort of constructed to be a land of
endless possibilities and I can do anything for you and
it's no skin off my back. And then below the surface,
you know the storm that you're trying to quiet. I've
had those jobs too. It's it's not an easy thing
to do, not an easy thing to do. It takes
a lot of energy. And you know, that's part of
(01:50):
what I also connected with nef about is then you
want to have energy at the end of your day
to pour into your art, to focus on your dreams,
to be creative. And sometimes you've come home and the
most creating you can do is ordering pizza. Right. And
on the subject of dreams, what were your dreams? At
that point, I definitely was trying to make a transition
(02:13):
into the film and television world in a more sort
of sustainable place. I had the privilege of being on
the Bold type, which is a free form shows. Congrats
on that, thank you and it and it lit the
dream alive in a really vibrant way, um in terms
of knowing that I will always have a home in
theater and want to come home to it as often
(02:35):
as I can. And I just found a different sort
of engagement with film that I hadn't had a chance
to explore much in my life previous to the show.
I just loved the environment and the pace. I love
the intimacy of a camera. I loved the collaborative nature
of all of these departments problem solving together. And it
(02:55):
just felt so inherently kind of creative in this like immediate,
really buzzy way. And you're also a musician too, I am, yes,
trying to find a balance of all of that, sort
of like honing in my creative language and the avenues
that I want to use to speak. It was all
on my mind at the time that I was cleaning
(03:17):
mats and checking people into class. I have to say
I've always felt for anyone who has to clean those
yoga mouts after class. Oh it's not a joke, yes,
And the smells and you know, it's not their fault,
like that's me when I get out of class too,
But it's deep. That is so true. So take me
(03:37):
back to then when you first found out about inventing
Anna the series, and how you through your hat in
the ring to have a part in the show, specifically
to plain enough. Yes, So I received the script they
were looking at me for enough, and the first thing
I did was sort of just google the Annadelte universe
because I hadn't come across the article previously reading the script. Okay,
(04:01):
so you were kind of coming into this cold. I was, yes,
which isn't to my full surprise because I'm a little
bit of a social media recluse by the way, not
always a bad thing, I think, No, no, not always
healthy for me largely, so you know, And all you
have to do is type Anna du into Google and
it's delby Stork in New York. Like it just it
(04:24):
was endless upon impact, which was really exciting. And then
the first piece I really dove into was the main
source material of the piece, the cut article. And what's
really intriguing about that for me specifically as I'm trying to,
you know, start to wait into next waters is She's
kind of our narrator. She's our first eyes into the story.
(04:47):
She's the first person that we see in Anna's life
who is looking at her and taking in her energy.
She's kind of our primary source from the beginning. So
that was really exciting for me, and that in reading
the script, Shanda celebrating that as well, that she's kind
of our home base. She's where we check back in
with ourselves and where we settle when there's a moment
(05:08):
that the glitter storm of the show, you know, starts
to subside, and we're New Yorkers ourselves, and we're in
that hustle and we have our own sort of ambitions
and like that centerpiece I think Nef was like largely
responsible for in this narrative. No, it's a great point
and this idea too, that we come back to what
the show is the the protagonist whom we can't trust,
(05:31):
right and Nef is the person actually in the space
who we trust first. I think so, and then you know,
as we learn more about Anna, we still find ourselves
able to come home to her and we know where
her loyalty is really grounded. So that was exciting. And
then I made the tape and uh, my friend who
I taped with was not enthusiastic about it, and I
(05:55):
was like, oh, enthusiastic about the project or your performance
in the tape. I think my performance if I'm being honest,
which you know, you never know, You just never know.
And I was going in for a lot of work
at the time, and who knows. Two weeks later, I
got a call from my managers and they said, Shonda
(06:18):
doesn't need to see anymore. She just wants to sit
down with you. She's never seen your work before and
hasn't had a chance to engage with you as an artist.
And so that's what we did. We got on Zoom.
We just got to know each other a little bit,
and it was really thrilling to have this kind of
dramaturgical character study discussion with Shonda and Betsy, who are
just two of the most brilliant women, really special, yes,
(06:41):
and the two of them have a really strong collaboration
and friendship. They've built so many of our greatest storytelling
worlds in television together. There are a power duo. A
power duo can do anything. We'll do everything and tell me.
From that first Zoom chat with Betsy and Shawna, What
did you most take away from the way they envisioned
(07:05):
the series and specifically envisioned enough. Well, they broke down
for me that they were going to have each episode
center on a different character in the Anna Delvy Marvel universe,
if you will, which I thought was brilliant because then
we're seeing all of these different perspectives from all sorts
(07:28):
of like New York culture points, who all found something intriguing, fascinating, scary,
you know, enticing about Anna Delvy, and it just helps
us build this momentous energy around this mysterious woman. I
just thought that was so intelligent, and with Nef specifically,
I mean, I remember one of the first things Shawanda
(07:48):
said to me so simply was I love this woman.
And I could hear it in her voice, you know.
In the character description she describes her as Barack Obama
meets Beyonce. Wow, that's a tall order, Lexis, Oh, you're
telling me, but also an honor and I mean, what
an exciting space to take up. And it also again
(08:10):
it just spoke to this kind of like you can
trust this woman. This woman is a hard worker, She
studied of her own craft, she has her own things,
to say, and she wants to make a splash on
the scene just as much as Anna does, which was
exciting too. I knew I was going to be working
with an artist, never herself and someone who loves and
(08:30):
is passionate about her own voice storyteller, which is an
exciting place to come into this. Absolutely, And you did
have access to the real enough, And I'd love to
know at what point during this process you met her
and what were your impressions of her. Yes, it was
actually the first thing I did. I I reached out
to her on Instagram. She was immediately responsive and excited,
which you know, probably a huge exhale. And of course
(08:54):
I love that you first met the Instagram. That's very enough, right,
very Anna. Yes, that is like a huge territory where
it went down between the two of them. And Nef
has a beautiful Instagram herself, this film colors Instagram. She
does all this educational work and film theory as She's
just so impressive to me, um and that was clear
upon meeting her as well. We had dinner actually Adam
(09:16):
Moroccan restaurant in Brooklyn. We found out we lived twenty
minutes walking from each other. Just another you know point
of synergy, and she was so generous that first night.
We spent truly three and a half hours together and
she let me record a little bit just for the
two of us. But I was just really struck by
(09:38):
her energy. That Barack Beyonce intersection. It does live in her.
By the way, did she know about how Shonda had
described this character. She must have felt pretty good about
herself to hear it describe it. I brought it up
at dinner, and I know it felt good, and I
know it felt good. But also she's one of those
(09:58):
people who owns that. I think she really owns the
space she takes up. Her worth is so inherent in
her and it's something she's worked really hard to build
and keep and protect despite working, you know, in the
service industry while balancing her dreams. And I think that
she knows the artist that she is, She knows the
(10:20):
story she has to tell, and it keeps her strong.
So it was really beautiful to see this young woman
take up this space and be excited to share her
story with the world. And I feel like Shonda was
the woman to do it and have that trust special. Yeah,
and it's difficult with these true stories you know, you
don't want to rely on the real people for permission necessarily,
(10:41):
and much like Jessica experiences as a journalist, you don't
want to hurt people with telling this story. You want
them to feel comfortable with how someone like Shawna's going
to own it and then translate it for TV. It's true,
and you know, you know in in the hands of Shanda,
you're going to get a well rounded, very taken care
of character who experiences the entire spectrum of the human
(11:04):
condition and emotional space. So I had that as well,
knowing that the script was taking good care of her,
but I wanted to make sure I did my job too.
I love that seems like the perfect environment to tell
a good story, right, That's right Land. Okay, there's a
land for a reason. It's a magical place where good
stories are told. Okay, amen. So I would love to
(11:26):
know what version of Anna do we see through Enough
and what does that version ultimately reveal about Enough herself, Yes,
especially because Anna is pretty calculating in terms of which
Anna she's showing to whom. So what I think is
special about their relationship is I think Anna is artist
Anna with nef and of course, the entrepreneurial energy is there,
(11:50):
But first and foremost, she's the Anna who loves wearing
black and knows exactly why. On an emotional level, you know,
she's the Anna who to any one park because she
loves the architecture, she loves the way the light comes in,
she loves the floor plan. She's seeing the dreams. She
can taste the food already, she's hearing the music. She
(12:13):
wants neft to maybe find the DJ for their opening night,
like she can dream with Nev and they both have
this kind of dream energy that they get to bubble
in and enjoy with one another, and it confirms that
this thing that is not yet real that people are
telling them might not ever be real, is real and
(12:33):
a part of them, and they can share the reality
of their dreams together. And I think that's sort of
like artists communal space that they share is unique in
their friendship. And that's beautifully said. And the word that
comes up for me a lot between them and their
rapports curation. I think they each have this love of curation,
whether it's a space, a look, music, experiential in the
(12:59):
sense when someone walks into the lobby of Nef's hotel.
Every need that person has wants to be met in
that moment, and I feel like Anna shares that It's
so true, and it's the extra step of, you know,
honoring what the space is asking them to do and
then making their own mark, you know, Like Nef has
to wear a uniform every day, but she chooses her pen,
(13:21):
she chooses her hair accessories. She maybe put on a
red lip, you know, maybe she does a press out,
maybe she lets her curls out. But these are all
decisions she makes to say, yes, I am here and
I'm a part of this experience, and I am very
good at my job. But there's also something about me
that is creative and that can curate this experience because
(13:42):
of the knowledge I have. And Anna used the power
of that same that display to move into rooms and
seem impressively young but also incredibly intelligent, and like that
was all done with this sort of visual communication that
they were both very experienced in. I have to say
I love the uniform. It's one of my favorite outfits
(14:04):
in the show. She looks so chic, Like Lin Paullo
can even make a uniform fly. The costume designer Lin
Pallo famously also did Scandal and How to get Away
with Murder and um, she just she speaks clothing like
it's Champagne. I can't explain it. She's just one of
a kind, their characters, unto themselves, all of her creations,
(14:25):
that's it. And they do so much of the work
for you. I mean, you put it on and and
I'm seventy five percent Neff already for the day, you know.
And what do you think Anna in those early days
picks up or learns from Neff because she seems so
intrigued by her, and not only as a friend, but
I think she almost is sort of like learning from
her from that first moment they meet. I think that's right. Well,
(14:48):
on a really practical level, you know, Neff is also
the person who was getting her on these exclusive lists.
She's truly handing Anna the keys to the kingdom of
New York. So Nef is doing a lot of educating
in terms of spaces, you know, because so much of
New York is kind of hidden away, Like there are
so many layers to the city, and you can think
(15:10):
you're walking through a barbershop and then you look in
the back and there's another door, and then you like
knock three times and a bouncer opens it and you
walk in and you're in like a Neon futuristic club.
So NEF knows the doors behind the doors, behind the
doors that you can't necessarily google, but you just have
to know from having been a veteran of the city.
And NEF is meaning Anna when she's been living here
(15:32):
about ten years and she's working, as she describes it,
in the people business, so she knows these cues, you know,
inside and out. At twelve George, if you're a guest
and we want to keep you happy, it's my job
to get you on the right data base. If you
want the right database, you'll receive every invite, you'll enter
every VP entrance, You'll always get a ticket, always get
(15:54):
a table. And I got Anna's name or some of
the most exclusive database. So Anna's learning a little bit
of the walk the posture, and she's really getting the
behind the scenes tour through NEF. And then in return
for that, not only she getting these tips, but she's saying,
come with me, Come be at this party with me.
(16:14):
You deserve to be here. I see it in your art,
I I see it in your spirit. They really saw
each other. It was It's a really intimate friendship that
they had. It's so true. And I love the idea
of the gatekeepers as the people with all the power.
We see that in Hollywood. You know, if you want
the dish, you have to be nice to assistance, right,
(16:34):
never be mean to the people who are the gatekeepers,
to the power players. And I think that something that
nef knew from day one, because she herself is that
person exactly. And and there's so much I think she
has so much pent up energy from having to like
stay cool, from the way that she was misjudged, misunderstood,
mistreated in the workspace, but also just in the space
(16:56):
of the city, in the space of this world and
being seen by Anna was hugely validating. And then the
fact that Anna said not just open the door for me,
but walk through it with me. It was life changing. Okay,
we're taking a short break, Stay tuned, Welcome back. Behind
(17:26):
the scenes of Inventing Anna An. Episode two, even though
it's early on in this series, is really sort of
a Gangbusters episode for all the characters. Beautifully written by
Matt Burne, and there's this incredible moment between neph and
Rachel that sort of stand off about visiting Anna in prison,
(17:48):
and Rachel, of course, is sort of like, hey, I'm
done with this drama. And you have that great speech
where you address this idea of the purchase of a
black woman. I mean, yet, she may have bought some
of my clothes, but you, I mean you let her
buy you. She watch your time, she watch your call
me again. So now come on, try me step up
here and discuss the purchase of this black woman. Because
(18:11):
I am that you ain't too correct your face. I
got chills just saying those words, and I know that,
and Matt said they came straight from Shonda, straight from
her brain. I would love for you to talk about
the meaningfulness of that scene, in particular to nef but
also the story at large. That moment was extraordinary right
upon impact just reading it on the page. There's another
(18:35):
moment I think that highlights the same thing, where um,
Rachel and Anna are getting their hair done and Neff
is along for the ride and Rachel was originally also
just along for the ride. But then Anna turns to
Rachel shows off her hair. Rachel's I wish I could
look like that, and Anna just looks at the woman
(18:57):
and says do her too, And suddenly Rachel hops into
Anna's chair thrown and has her hair done in the
same fashion as Anna. And there's just no chance that
in that salon Nef is going to be able to
be attended to or celebrate it in that way. Um,
(19:17):
why is that? Black women? For a long time, the
only chance that I was going to have to have
my hair done in a salon like that was if
I had it relaxed, if I had my curls, you know,
basically pressed out. Um, the way you walk into the
room already requires some kind of explanation if you want
(19:40):
to be seen or have a seat at the table,
you already are catching up. And Anna is dealing with
that on some levels. But I think Neff also has
a moment in episode five where she explains to Anna
that there's a different kind of swimming upstream that Nef
has had to do in her life. I will be
a director, then what are you waiting? Full It's not
(20:04):
that easy for normal people. Any money and rent not
thanks time. Bullshit this case you say, lap and a
partial to Apia black girl from d C. Don't have
a way, embarasue m not like you. Women like Anna
(20:27):
have a bit of a life raft and the current
is designed to pull them along, whereas for Nev it's
designed to keep her down and keep her drowning. And
the energy that that takes is extraordinary. And communicating that
in colorful language, I mean, Shaanna just has so many graceful, beautiful, funny,
(20:50):
heartbreaking ways of readdressing this idea of I am not
who you think I am when I walk into the
room and I have a story, the importance of being
an archaeologist when you are listening to the story of
others and asking questions and being curious about the depths
(21:12):
of human underneath the skin. Wow, that was beautifully said.
That was really a gorgeous way of interpreting the text.
Thank you, It's all in there. Shanda really does. And
some oftimes her language is just visual, the way that
Nef and Anna can be sitting at the same table
and you'll see that. You know, when Neff speaks, the
(21:34):
air drops out a little bit and the temperature cools,
and people are a little taken aback that she even spoke.
I assume that people met a thought Nef was Anna's assistant,
and why is she speaking out of turn. And there's
just so many ways that Shonda plays with this idea
and shares it with us. So optics are everything, and
(21:56):
I think and on her own way is trying to
destroy x dictations and certainly everything she does is about
I know, you think you know what you're looking at,
but you don't. And then yeah, it's that above the desk,
below the desk thing exactly. It reminds me of that
British show Upstairs Downstairs. It's the same idea of the
workers and the elite, that constant divide between the two.
(22:19):
And yet it's the workers who are creating the environment,
the people who make these luxurious experiences, I mean, those
are people who are then kept out of them. It's
a it's a pretty complex dynamic, it is, to say
the least. Another thing that is prevalent throughout the entire
show is boundaries and how each character struggles in his
(22:41):
or her own way, whether it's Todd, Rachel, etcetera, struggling
to set their own boundaries. With Anna, because she's someone
who clearly has no concept of them. She's constantly pushing,
she has no sense of how she's hurting people in
the moment and Nef herself certainly doesn't seem to have
a problem with this in her work life. She tells
her boss very curtly, I'm going on a break. If
(23:02):
you have an issue with this, not my problem. But
with Anna, we do see her being tested in this
way that she's questioning her own instincts. At what point
in the show do you think she starts to realize, oh,
I'm starting to have boundary problems with this person. I
think it begins at that dinner that they have. I
(23:23):
think that's the first time that Neff's hairs really stand up.
I don't like, I'm just going to a work in
card so I can close out this table. I want
to see our manager. I am the manager. Why don't
get what? No, no, no, no, it's here. I think
until then, she's not just seeing the cash. She's held
(23:45):
it in her hands, she's brought it home to her apartment.
She's seen the experiences, she's seen Anna carry herself in
these rooms, she's seen the paperwork. I mean, she is
behind the scenes looking at the evidence, cold hard in
front of her. But there is that moment where you
know suspicion is already bubbling in the hotel and then
(24:06):
Nef for the first time, feels the anxiety of moving
two hundred dollars from your saving account into your credit
card and watching it leave, you know, before you can
even blink. I mean, it's a it's a really disorienting feeling,
especially for someone like Nef that is so careful and
she has bills and student loans and she's not playing
(24:27):
with her money. So just feeling that and how sort
of out of body that experiences just starts to sort
of disorient her in general. And then Nef, in her
own way, kind of does her due diligence that some
of these banks didn't do, which was she went to
the records herself at her hotel and she looked and
(24:50):
saw that Anna had a six digit outstanding balance, and
that was enough for her. I think too, not necessarily
place a permanent judgment on her, but to make the
I think very intelligent decision to erect a boundary and
to ask for space. Be straight with me now being
(25:14):
so crazy and stopped right there. If you're a hustler,
that's cool to your hustle, but leave me to funk
out of it. I have rent to pay. I have
a real life ship that I have to deal with
I have plans and I will not go down with you.
Do you hear me? Handle your business? She has too
much on the line, and again she is swimming upstream.
(25:37):
There's not going to be a rescue raft if Nev
gets wrapped up in this. For her, especially for talking
about the authorities getting involved, I mean, she can't play
like that, right because again she doesn't have the advantage
that Anna has. That's right. I mean in a lot
of spaces, you know, Neff walks in and she's already
a criminal. We talked about this a lot, you know
(25:58):
in the community. It's when you feel like you are
born into a skin that is guilty upon arrival. You
moved through the world in a different way, and Conning
is not There's the opportunity is not there. Okay, everybody
will be right back right after these messages. Thanks for
(26:32):
sticking around. Now back to the interview. So I would
love to talk about episode five, which is called Checkout Time.
It's next episode. As you've said, each character has his
or her own episode, and there are a couple of
moments I'd love for you to walk us through. First.
One of my favorite moments is the interaction between Nef
(26:53):
and her boyfriend, who, bless his heart, he's maybe doesn't
say it in the smartest way, but he's telling her like,
this woman is scamming you, right, and it's funny you
see her bristle. You say that hilarious line, idiot, you're
from Santa Barbara, Like, what do you know about the hustle? Right?
Check yourself, check, check yourself. But I think in that moment,
(27:13):
and none of us ever wants someone close to us
to tell us something about ourselves that were either in
denial about or just don't want to admit. So walk
me through that scene and to what degree was that
a turning point for her? Yeah? I think it's a
big deal. There's a stillness about that moment. You know. Previously,
she and her boyfriend are on the couch. They're kind
of joking about the fire festival mess. She's not even
(27:36):
really engaged because she's counting her money from Anna, and
so in contrast this scene, she has just given two
hundred dollars to Anna. She comes home and I think
he's waiting up for her in a stillness that is different.
There's a really different tone that they don't often share
with one another. I think of them as having a
pretty fast rapport. They're both pretty fast talking, and I
(27:59):
think that is striking to have someone really on the
inside with her who's been encouraging to an extent, but
like maybe she sort of brushed off his judgments before,
and this feels more almost like an intervention. Your fancy
friend stuck you with a dinner bill you can't afford,
and she got you so wrapped around her finger that
(28:20):
you vouched for this bitch to your boss and you
still don't have her credit card. You've been had, hoodwinked, bamboozled, boom.
You're supposed to be riding this trend to your film.
I don't see no film, and now you out a pocket.
Later in the episode, there's a moment when she's lying
in bed, she's up all night. The storm of confusion
(28:43):
and hurt is sort of buzzing around her, keeping her
from sleeping, and he confronts her again, and this time
it really is personal. It's about how Anna might be
an escape for enough to not have to do the
boots on the groundwork in terms of bringing her her
film into this reality. It's not like you're doing anything.
(29:04):
I finished my novel yesterday. You don't even ask. People
are making feature films on their phones now. Money is
not your problem. You don't think you can do it. Look,
and a chick might be crazy, but I agree with
her on one thing. You want something, you have to
(29:25):
do something about it. And it's excuse after excuse after
excuse of why she can't be the engineer of her
own art, why she can't be the captain of her
own ship. And I think that really throws her into
a space of reserve and just sort of like halt
that we don't see that much from this go go
(29:46):
go woman. And I think it's a huge confrontation with herself.
It's something I don't know that she was ready to hear,
but it rings true in that spooky scary way, you know, yeah, absolutely,
And you know none of us can blame MEF in
that moment for wanting this life preserver. At that annus
right out saying, Hey, you don't have to keep working
(30:06):
as hard as you've been working. It doesn't have to
be this hard. I'm gonna give you a little shortcut.
I'm gonna help you figure out ways to circumvent the system.
I mean, none of us could resist that, and it's
just too tempting. And when it's been years and years
of trying to get it done and you are exhausted
from again trying to maintain this balance of work and
(30:30):
life and relationship and your dream and it feels like
you are the only person who believes in you. This
was a once in a lifetime opportunity to have real
wind under her wings, So the potential of that suddenly
being not there anymore, on top of just the confrontation
she's having of why can't I do this? You can't
(30:53):
help the question yourself why it isn't working and what
is it about me? And that I think is also
in the design of the system, is to infuse you
with self doubt so that you don't have the energy
to push through. And so many people do and their
heroes to me, and they're all over this country, this world,
but it is definitely not built for your success. Very true.
(31:17):
And I always come back to Mindy Kaleen's refraid of
why not me? Why not me? And it's funny I
heard that in my head all the time, and I
see that in this character too. She has to keep
tuning out the naysayers and just keep telling herself, why
not me? Why not me? In a lot of ways Anna,
even though Anna thinks she's helping, she really does throw
enough off her game in a lot of ways. It's true.
(31:39):
It's it's a bit distracting, you know, the glitz and
the glamour. It feels good. And I think Nef enjoys
being in the spaces because in some ways maybe she's
trying to soak up that validation, like Okay, I'm here.
I'm here, and not think so much about why or
how or for how long. But just if I can
just be in these races and I can like tell
(32:01):
my body that I belong in these spaces, and maybe
I can make it true that way. But it's true.
We start to see her sort of move from center
a bit where she once had that sense of worth
entirely from within herself, and she starts to sort of
spiral away from that center point when Anna comes along,
(32:23):
and then of course we have the great competition between
the two when she finally says out loud, I have
planned I will knock go down with you handle your business,
And it was almost like a parent child interaction, This
like discipline that she never wanted to have to exert
over her friend, and you really do see Anna one
of the very few moments where Anna seems to have
(32:43):
fear in her eyes. It's extraordinary, so well written, and
especially because I think it connects back to that other
moment in the episode where the two of them are
kind of lying in bed at three am and they're
kind of having this like girls Nights, Safe Space sleepover
dream athon. I'm really really drunk, I think, and it's
(33:10):
really sweet and just kind of born naturally out of
the end of the night energy. But they talk about family,
and it's one of the only times in the series
where you really hear Anna be vulnerable about her family
and what their wishes for her were and how that
impacted her to the point where she she slips and
she speaks about how she didn't grow up with money,
(33:32):
and next sort of gently questions and then she she
gets back on track. But I think that speaks so
much to the uniqueness of their connection and how they
were starting to feel like family to one another. They
really have a sisterhood by the time we get to
that place in the episode, So for your Sister, which
is how they are to me at this point in
(33:53):
the show to confront you and say you're not doing
it sis, and you're not bringing me with you. It's
time to grow up is extraordinary. I mean, Anna has
no family around her at this point, and so the
sister that she's now welcomed into her life has now
(34:14):
started to turn a cold shoulder pretty abruptly on her.
It's love, it's a loss of love. I think that
we see in her eyes as much as fear, and
we do feel empathy for Anna, even though she makes
it very difficult. She does, my goodness, and that testament
to Julia's performance and the writing. I'm just so thankful
(34:35):
that this show treats her like a full human being,
because there's a lot of narratives out there about whether
or not that's even true, if she's missing something, and
I think she's fully there, which just raises the stakes
and and makes us confront these dynamics within ourselves of
having to play pretend right. Very true, and it's interesting
(34:56):
with all of this hurt and confusion. On next part,
there are two miles to moments toward the end of
the series where we still see this undying loyalty and
love for Anna. The first moment, which I love the
minute the articles in Times Square and she's looking up
and grabbing that guy. That's my girl, that's my girl.
She's still excited for Anna after everything Anna has put
(35:16):
her through. And then of course walk us through the
Trial Style Instagram account and how those two sort of
gushing moments for enough indicate this undying love for this
person who has caused her so much distress. Yes, I
mean I think that's family, you know, like when you've
been going through it a little bit and Christmas was rough,
(35:38):
but they get a new job, you know, after the
new year, and you throw a party, and it's that
unconditional love of of someone who really sees all of you,
and they really built that together in a short amount
of time. So that's what that Time Square moment was
all about from me, just like forget the past, girl,
get it. Like the way that they mirror each other
(35:59):
in some ways, seeing Anna's space up there is seeing
a part of herself up there, and there's something affirming
about that too. So then when it's Trial Style time,
it's complicated, but I think Nef gets the vision, she
gets the dream, and on a family level, she wants
to do anything to keep her sister out of prison.
(36:19):
I mean, that's that's the place I was coming from
at that time. And they can have fun while they
do it, and they can celebrate themselves as artists while
they do it, and they can connect on this safe space.
And in some ways it's a little bit sad because
they're not really unpacking the hurt that they went through
together in the way nef felt fooled by someone that
(36:43):
she trusted. But they can meet on this level where
the two of them, you know, where their friendship first began,
which is, we love to tell our stories. We love
the visual medium for telling our stories. I can help
you do this, And then that's what they do. They
start to craft this narrative and they treat the court
scene like New York Fashion Week, and maybe that's also
helpful for Nev. I mean, I always was thinking about
(37:05):
what it would be like to be in these places
of government authority and discipline in the justice system, and
you know, we we see that moment in episode two
where she's going to visit Anna, and I really it
felt like nightmarish to me, and I think being in
the court space is not that different. And so they
get to sort of reclaim the space and graffiti over
(37:29):
the walls. Metaphorically, this is like the Revenge of the
twenties something woman, Right, It's sort of like, Okay, New York,
you have your old court system, but we have Instagram
and we're gonna throw you off your game and we're
gonna make Anna the center of the circus. And it works.
I mean, we see that all over the place now.
I'm a huge supporter of the Sunrise movement, and it's
(37:51):
it's young people saying Okay, you've had your chance, but
I want a future and I want it now, and
I'm not afraid to change to the rules. You made
the rules, someone made them before you. This was this
has all been created and it can be recreated. And
I see the power in that. And the two of
them get to celebrate that and find a lot of
joy in this dark moment, kind of like infiltrate joy
(38:13):
into this dark moment, Like if we have to go
through this, we may as well have some fun, have
some fun, tell our stories and shake things up and
and say you cannot control me. You can put me
in a cage, but you cannot control the song I sing.
And that's what they're doing. M I love that. And
(38:35):
the last question, how do you think Anna has changed
Nef's life and perception of herself for the duration? I
think Nef will be at least. I am really proud
of the decisions that she made and the ways that
she took care of herself and was sliding down the
slope but sort of got her footing again and was
(38:56):
able to keep a healthy distance but also support her friends.
I mean, that's an They're incredibly difficult balance. This person
has caused me a lot of pain, but they need
my help, and how can I take care of them
but first and foremost take care of myself. And I
really applaud Neff for her grace and doing so, and
how she continues to do so on top of just
(39:17):
the bravery of telling her story as truthfully as she did.
I mean, she really she shared her whole self with us.
I think the nephew see on screen is sort of
a marriage of our friendship the Nef I got to
meet the Nef on the page and parts of Shonda too,
And I think in general, it's it's a celebration of
(39:39):
moving with empathy through the world, but never putting your
own power in someone else's hands. Well, I can't think
of a better way to end this conversation than with that,
So thank you so much. Alexis. The show was so
lucky to have you play this part. Neff was so
lucky to have you play this version of her, and
I know wherever she is she has to be very
(40:00):
happy about this. So thank you so much for your
time and congratulations. Thank you, such a pleasure to talk
with you. Really, thank you, thank you, Thank you so
much for listening. Next week we'll have the pleasure of
dropping back in on Shonda Rhymes with the one and
only Jessica Pressler. Jessica, of course, is the journalist who
(40:22):
wrote the New York magazine story that Shonda adapted into
inventing Anna. They're going to chat about their close collaboration
on the series. You're a little bit reluctant. When I
was like, maybe it's going to be like a big
part of the show. I remember you being like, Okay,
that's yeah. I definitely was like, okay, Like you think
that now, but you're going to write her out of
(40:42):
it later, not so much. If you're enjoying this show, subscribe,
share with your friends, rate, and leave us a review.
All of that good stuff. And if you haven't finished
Shawnda Lance Inventing Anna on Netflix, please go do that.
We really don't want to spoil it for you. Inventing
(41:02):
Anna the Official Podcast is executive produced by Sandy Bailey,
Lauren Hohman, Tyler Klang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and
editor is Nicholas Harder, and the show is produced and
hosted by me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing Anna the Official
(41:25):
Podcast is a production of Shondoland Audio in partnership with
I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Schondeland Audio, visit
the i Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com