April 13, 2022 • 45 mins
Anna’s former trainer and life coach Kacy Duke divulges what was really behind her hesitation to be in Jessica Pressler’s article, which episode was hardest to watch, and what her entanglement with Anna inspired in her own work as a life coach. She gives the scoop on what the Morocco trip and Anna’s intervention were really like and how her lived experience compares to the show. Expect lots of laughs as Kacy lives up to her “effervescent” reputation (according to Laverne Cox) and delivers some delightfully on-brand inspirational mantras.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shondaland
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to Inventing
Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the making
of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your host,
Stacy Wilson Hunt, and today I'm chatting with celebrity fitness
(00:21):
trainer Casey Duke, who you probably know as the character
played by Laverne Cox in the series. Casey has spent
decades getting Hollywood stars like Denzel Washington and Dakota Johnson
in fighting form for the big screen, but she never
could have imagined that she'd be a key figure in
one of the craziest stories ever told. Casey and I
chat about what it was like to train Anna Delvi,
(00:42):
how it felt to witness her ensuing meltdown, and how
seeing this saga play out on screen has only reinforced
how important it is to stand in her power. Hello, Casey,
it's so nice to meet you. How are you. I'm great,
(01:04):
Thank you for inviting me in. I'm excited. Of course,
you are so central to this story. But before we
talk about Anna Delby, I'd actually love to talk about
you in your life. You've led a very interesting life.
You're very accomplished person. Uh native New Yorker. I'd love
to know more about how and where you grew up.
I am definitely a native New Yorker. I grew up
in Brooklyn. What part of Brooklyn, Well, you know, it's
(01:25):
the the folk Green into Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights area.
Because it was for Green Park was like my playground.
I used to live in Park Slope. I love that area.
You know. I have a lot of dolls buried in
Fulk Green Park, a lot. If we see a little
plastic hands sticking up from the dirt, we shouldn't be scared,
not at all. So you were there before all the
(01:46):
hipsters came in and you know, jacked up the housing prices.
Oh yeah, we were. We were there for for many
more years before that. When I was married to my
first husband, we lived in Douglass and Queen's Wo had
my first workout studio. Then you know, to Manhattan and
I've been a a big Apple girl for many years
and I love this city. Love it. You know, you
(02:10):
want to slap it sometimes, but it just gives you
such good energy that it just keeps you on your toes,
you know, I'd love to know how you got into
the training business for you an athlete as a young person,
how did this line of work come into your life. Well,
if you had to give a picture of case, you
duke the early years, I would say that I was
doing track and field in school and then dance class
(02:32):
after school. The way that I see it is that
the melding of those two they gave me this edge
because the way that I trained is very it's very graceful,
yet it has the athleticism of the track and field
and the grace of the dance. And so I just
used those two things because I sawt out thinking I
was gonna be a dancer, and it just didn't work
(02:53):
out for me. Too long to get a solo number one,
It wasn't good enough. But I tried and everybody but
they smoked and they drank. It was like dancers were
not as healthy as I thought. So I think that
it was a transition for me to go into something
that I can still have movement and I can still
(03:13):
be athletic into a class. And I think that's what
really put me on the map, is my aerobics classes,
my group fitness classes. That was the turning point for me.
And you know, then I decided I wanted to do
personal training because I really wanted to do. I want
to go for the anatomy of movement. I wanted to
really go in a way where I can manipulate muscle
(03:35):
fibers and design a body. And that's what I did.
I can knock myself up with a feather because I
don't really know how it all came together, but it
was obviously you know, the universe doing its thing. Well.
You know, I think we see with every successful person
hard work ultimately leads to success. It may take time,
(03:57):
but if you stick to your truth and how to
have confidence in who you are and what you do,
it'll all work out. And I would love to know
more about what I would call your holistic approach to training.
You aren't just forcing people to do burpies. You're having
them do the burpies, but you're also having them reflect
on their emotional state. I was saying when I first
(04:18):
started incorporating mindfulness into my movement. You know some of
the editors that say, well, is it like yoga? Said No,
it's not yoga. I said, you know, it's emotional, spiritual,
and physical and I didn't mean spiritual as a religion.
I just meant how to become your own life's motivation.
And they said, well, can you get a tight ask
from it? And I was like absolutely, because everybody wants
(04:40):
a tight ass. That's so I said, sure, you can,
let me show you how. The first thing is that
I always say, it's mindset, motivation, and movement. The mindset,
motivation and movements seemed to like really click with people
because it was like, you know, admit where you're coming from,
admit what you need to change, and love yourself in
your current form, no matter a health flaw that might be,
(05:01):
and then we can go about changing it right. You
have to be honest with yourself at this point, and
that's the mindset, and then the motivation is finding people
to help you because sometimes it's hard to do it alone.
And then the movement is the last part. People go
on and off their track because they're always coming from
a physical place. I want to look like this. I
(05:22):
want to look like this, but when you work on
your strengthening that first component the mindset, and then you
go to the next one is how do I motivate
myself so I can stay on this course, the movement,
it's gonna happen, it's gonna come, it's gonna be everything
you needed to be, and you're gonna stay with it longer.
Not saying that you're not gonna go off sometimes because
we all do, We all, you know, go off the road.
(05:42):
I just say, don't build a house there. That is
so well put. Let's shift gears a little bit too.
When you first found out that Shonda land is going
to be making a serious firstly, what did you think
about that? And tell me about meeting Lavern, knowing that
this person who's this incredible actor, this incredible activists, who
brings so much soulfulness to her own work was going
(06:02):
to be playing you in this show. I mean just
talking to Shonda and just you know, meeting her and
having the zoom within her war room with I mean
this long table with these how wrong how many writers
and you know, show runners or whatever they were. I
was just like, I can't believe this. Your little star struck. Yeah,
(06:23):
of course, I mean, who wouldn't be. That was an
amazing experience. And I tell my son about that all
the times I'm saying this. You could tell my grandkids.
We explained this to them because they need to remember
this moment. Was it cathartic for you to be able
to share your intel and your emotional journey with people
who were going to be able to respect what you
were telling them and also use it in a way
(06:44):
that wasn't exploitive. Absolutely, it's not the prettiest story. Maybe
people will think that we were all like, well, why
will we taken while we why do we do it?
You know, this is our journey and to be able
to talk about it. It's better than the therapy, to
to like get it out and know that the world
(07:04):
has seen a part of me. I'm not losing I'm
not allowing Anna to make me change my view of
trusting people, of seeing the greatness and people of wanting
to help people. If anything, she reaped that up right.
You didn't want this experience to make you reluctant to
(07:25):
help people in the future, and I appreciate Shanda giving
me this opportunity in Jessica. And then we can get
to Laverne. Right, So tell me about your first conversation
with Laverne. What did you talk about, What fears did
you share with her? What did she say to allay
any concerns that you may have had for how she
(07:45):
was going to take on this journey of playing you
in the show. Well, you know what, when we met,
we decided that, well, let me train you first. Let
me just show you what I do. And what was
her experience. She was fired up. She was like, Ga
moved Czy Laverne sound in good shape too, by the way,
first time where she said, I haven't shape. But wait
(08:07):
a minute, you know, And and that's the difference. People
are used to doing that same thing. When you and
jet something else into your training program, you're always going
to be feeling it. And like she watched me train,
and she and I trained her, and I showed a
different exercises and she was watching everything. And then I said,
I would love to take you to lunch, you know,
and we can talk. We did a four hour lunch
(08:29):
and I said, I'm going to tell you my life story.
I'm gonna tell you everything, and can I ask you anything?
And she said absolutely. And I told her things that
I really don't talk about so that she will understand
the depth of me, you know, because I'm I'm more
than a pair of thighs and more than an assid
(08:50):
arm you know, I'm a heart, in a mind and
a spirit, and I really want her to understand that,
and she did. I'm so sorry, Oh, don't apologize. Think
about what I told her years later, you know. I
mean after two marriages, one grade one second one horrible,
and what my son had to see and what I'm
(09:13):
proud of, how I didn't hide things from him because
I wanted him to see, this is who you will
never be. Mommy is gonna be fine, but I need
you to see this that you do not think that
this is what you want to be. I'm giving you
the real truth of this, and I took chances with that,
and I had to tell us if this is who
I am. So when I'm helping someone, I've got a
lot of stuff that I know what it is to
(09:36):
struggle after what I've been through in my lifetime getting
my ass kicked enough time to someone you know no more.
And I needed her to know that there's energy out
there that you can that you can get on the
trajectory up. I always say, look at yourself and find
that some wonderful moment that happened to you, some amazing moment.
Like everyone, I want to contest and I was like
(09:58):
ten years old and my parents are like, I can't
believe you want. I can't believe she won. You know,
I would say, because I personality and not remember that
moment or when I first got my first TV show
and I did something. It's like that lives in me.
And whenever I get I feel like I'm getting off,
I go back and I get those I get that
energy and I get that energy. So everything that I've
(10:19):
been through, it becomes my radar, or it becomes my energy.
That ex husband that did that, he is in my
mind's eye he has a dumps hat on sitting in
a corner. It is back to me and what I
want to feel like. And remember the bad bitch that
I am might say, turn around, I say thank you
because you told me everything. I never would have ever, ever,
(10:40):
ever having a man ever again, I would choose better.
And I needed her to know these things because that's
what makes me me understand someone else's plight. I can
see nobody's perfect what's perfection? What's perfection? But one's perception.
So how I see you and perceive you. I'm gonna
look for the greatness in you first. I'm not going
to be the victim and the path hold me back.
(11:02):
It is what makes me who I am. And she
listened to me and she let me ask questions about her.
I asked, how does it feel to be the woman
you always wanted to be? She would feel amazing. It
was a great, a really great talk, and I really
needed needed her to know so she can build from
that too, right, And first, I just want to say
(11:22):
thank you for sharing that. I know it's not an
easy thing to talk about. And then secondly, what a
gift to give an actor to really take that person
inside your soul and explain how that is informing your
approach to teaching people how to be fit to feel better.
I'm just so happy that Seanda chose her, and I'm
(11:42):
just happy to be in this historical moment. Okay, there's
much more to the story coming up right after this. Okay, everybody,
welcome back to Inventing Anna, the official podcast. Now we're
(12:09):
going back around five years when you first met Anna,
and you probably couldn't have worked with someone so counter
to your own person. These concepts you've described were so foreign,
the idea of being open and laying bare her fears
and her hesitations about herself. Tell me about, first of all,
what your career was like at that point, who your
(12:30):
clients were around that time, and again bring us back
to that first meeting with Anna. Well, you know what
the thing with Anna is that she wasn't like a
lot of women that would come to me at first glance.
You know, they come in and they all want someone
else's body, so they want the cosmetic transformation. Yes, that's
what they're focusing on. And Anna was no different than
any other young woman. So she didn't come in saying that.
(12:53):
I said, Wow, she's crazy. You know, she was a
young woman that was full of ambition, She knew what
she wanted. I think she said that she loved the
idea that she heard that I was training to call
to Johnson. She was kind of like drawn to me
because of that. You know, was this before after fifty shades?
Were you getting the code and shape four fifty shades?
(13:14):
Or was this after? Well this the second, second and
third one, okay, But at the same time I had
left to go to Russia to do a press thing
with Kate Beckinsale. So she was in the midst of
a lot, you know, me traveling and a lot of
people they loved the idea of being with like a
celebrity trainer give me a break, well, especially Anna, especially Anna.
(13:35):
But she was she wasn't really rude, you know, in
the beginning. She really wasn't rude to me. She was
rude to people around her. Even in the gym, she
was a little rude. Do you think that she saw
in you more of a mentor figure than than she
was used to being around, because you really did bring
this energy into her life that it seems, and I'm
not an expert, that she didn't really have from anyone else.
(13:57):
Is that true? I think so. I would. I would
hope so, because she I think she wasn't expecting me
to approach her in this way because when she was
working out, I was like, Okay, we need to work
on a couple of things. I said, you need to
pull your enabled towards your spine. That is your creative center.
I said, you go in front of these people who
you want money from. And she was saying that she's
(14:18):
having these meetings. You have to go in there with confidence,
don't sink into your body, pull up. Up. How you
do this is how do you do everything on half athic?
Your toys and done beautiful, and we talked about the whole,
my whole you know, bad bitch philosophy is like, it's
(14:40):
not about you being mean to anyone. It's more unless
you're walking in your power and it helps your posture.
And she was very open to that. So there were
elements that she didn't do anything that most young women
or most people don't do. Instead of just saying, you know,
in casey, this is really hard, I need a break
for a minute, she was more like, my phone, I
need to that's something you can do this Paine is
(15:02):
weakly sleeping the body. Anna off your phone, experience the
beauty at this moment when is over fifteen seconds, keep
going every rep, house, every rap. You know. Anna just
had a a tick of sorts. It was almost like
someone was like holding a mirror and watching their every move.
(15:24):
That's interesting. So everything was like even when she was
working out, she was like, am I doing this as
anybody watching me? You know what I'm saying? She was,
I think working on who she was becoming, right, But
she was very nice. She didn't she didn't mess with
me because I put her in a place really quickly,
and she really liked me. She liked hanging out with me,
but and I really liked her. I wanted her to succeed.
(15:45):
That's why I introduced it to some people that I
thought that she would because she had no friends. You know,
she living in a hotel. And you are a parent
in real life and a grandma ana grandma, which is
so impressive. If people could just see the way you
look right now, you are so glam and so fit
and so youthful looking. It's really quite a certain I do.
(16:06):
I'm a glamor girl, that's for sure. We do have
that in common with the Verne and I. But there's
something sort of sweet in the idea that maybe she
was getting a maternal energy from you that she really needed.
Whether or not you were consciously giving that energy to her,
it seems from what I've read in the story and
obviously watching the in the series, that there was some
(16:29):
level of comfort that you provided to her. Were you
aware of that interaction, yes, because I would say I
want you to succeed, And I told I said, you know,
I have some your age. You know I mean this.
I said, you're doing great things. I want you them
to take you seriously. Because she would always say they're
not taking me serious. The meeting is canceled. There was
always something about someone doing something to her with this thing,
(16:50):
and I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I
always have said, you know what, take it easy, you know,
go here and just relaxed or something. So I did
have I did take her onto my wing a bit,
and she had a dog on great idea, and I
was happy that she just wasn't just you know, wasting
it on some other nonsense. She was really, I don't know, girls,
(17:11):
just I want to do is just shop, Not that
she didn't. She really had wanted to do something, and
I bought into it because that's what I saw. We're
also an entrepreneur yourself. You appreciated that this woman was
taking control of her life, starting her own business. What's
not to like about that? Exactly? And it reminded me
of me when I you know, my parents always say
(17:32):
you agree, why don't you just do something else? Was
this like fifthness stuff, And it's like, I'm so happy
that I didn't listen to them, and they're so happy
that I didn't listen to them. That's why I raised
my son. Do you don't play it? Say jump and
let the net appear. Really go for your dreams. Even
if you fail, you'll learn something from that failure. I
think big, dream big, and that's what I really saw Nanna.
(17:56):
She was dreaming big. I mean for her to her
and steal from people and rip people off. Right, there's
dreaming big, and then there's within the confines of the law. Yeah,
there's the law. Let's see. A word that has come
up in a lot of these interviews with the real
life folks but also the actors who have worked in
the show is this term of shape shifter and how
(18:18):
Anna herself was sort of depending on whom she was with.
She was changing that version of herself to either suit
the situation or suit the person. What version of Anna
do you think you experienced. I think it was the
vulnerable Anna, and I think it was the Anna that
needed a confidant. I think she needed someone who was
like a mother maybe mother is not the right word,
(18:39):
with someone that she could lean on, that she can trust,
that she knew was solid. My trust allowance doesn't come
until the first and the business that don't take me
seriously just because of it. I know about misindependent, independent woman,
but lot has happened to you? You were moved? Have
(19:04):
you called your parents? What happens? I don't un this
stuff to me. They don't have to understand you that
your parents they love you. She knew I had, you know,
kids and grandkids. She knew that I had a home.
She knew that I like to eat healthy, she knew
that I would always say, like, what are you eating tonight?
Where you going tonight? Or what do you know? I said,
you know, you gotta get up early tomorrow. Don't go crazy.
(19:25):
You know someone that really was interested in like she
would call just case him having a moment. You have
the time to talk, and she might just rattle on.
But I think she just needed someone that was a
more mature figure in her life, but at the same
time was super cool. And I could have a glass
of rose with her and invite her to a dinner
party and she would feel comfortable. And I always said,
(19:47):
and you're an old soul, and you're also one of
the few people in her life who she perceived didn't
want something from her. You were solid in your career,
you were solid and who you were, you didn't need
anything from her. And maybe there was a comfort in
the I think so. Yeah. Remember the first time she
came over, when she came up with the dinner party
that I, you know, I gave so she could meet
some interesting people, artists and directors, and she bought a
(20:10):
bottle of Dumperon and I thought that was like, this
is too much, Like, well, she doesn't know I had
that so many bottles of this. It's okay, It's like
it's like the bottles of it. How's my another? That's
pretty good. I have to say that bottles of it?
But I was thinking, girl, you have to spend this money.
I have tons of wine. This is a lot. This
(20:30):
is your birthday, it's your birthday coming up. You know,
it's just so um. She wanted to impress you. It
sounds like she did. And I mean, I always tell
the story about how she said to me one day.
She says, he say, you have great hands. Your your
hands are really nice. Your nails are just so weak.
You need to have this nail polish. Is something for
a nail polish. And I was like, and I don't
really wear a lot of because I worked with weights.
(20:52):
And she says, no, but this is a neutral, this
is right for you. And she was right. She did
give you some long lasting advice. Then I'd love to
talk now about your first meeting with Jessica Pressler, who
did such a fantastic job reporting this circus of a story, right,
and obviously you were very close to her, you gave
(21:14):
her all this great intel. But then also tell me
about your ultimate decision to pull your name from the article.
You know. I think it started with when Rachel did
an article and I didn't know about it, and then
all of a sudden, somebody's calling me from some place
of fat check something. I said, what, and and just
to refresh people's memories, Rachel wrote a first person piece
(21:37):
for Vanity Fair about Anna, and so in that piece
you were referenced, and thus the fact checker called you yes,
and I said, you cannot use my name, okay, I said, no,
no way. It just felt very sleazy to me, and
I didn't want you any my clients to feel like
that was in the midst of some craziness, and I
was just protecting myself and my brand. I told Rachel
(21:59):
we should contact Anna's parents. We could find them online
or something. So you spoke to Anna's parents. Now, he
says she wanted to think about it, and then I
see her article today. If she would have told me
that she was going to do this to try to
reap the money back from you know, what she lost,
(22:21):
maybe I would have said, Okay, how are you gonna
do this? Okay, well, well she did rip you off.
I can't that. I cannot, you know, Deny. So I
think that with Jessica it was just too much because
I was like, whoa, another one, Wait a minute, wait
a minute, Casey, I need your story. I am done
with Annadelphia in her chaos, please. And I was afraid
(22:45):
that it was going to show me in a bad light,
you know, because there's a party of just saying that
did I create this person with you know, being a
graceful gangster? Did I create this person being a bad
Was this sort of like a Frankenstein thing where you
empowered her so much? Right? Yeah? It just comes crashing
down like whoa, this person is not who you thought
she was. This woman is like in the news as
(23:07):
a psycho, and here this person is calling me. And
then I actually I think I said to Jessica, that's
not me, and she said, Casey, we know this is you.
So you tried to get out of it. I tried
to get out. It was so many times people were
asking me, this sounds like you, this sounds like you,
and I was like no, no, no, so I denied it.
(23:28):
It's the problem of being so good at your job
and people knew you in those circles that you couldn't
deny who you were, and they were saying things. They
were saying, well, I think she said something about an
open if you vibe with it a young angela basset Biden,
and I was like, oh, that sounds kind of cute,
but I have the quote right here that actually ends
up in Jessica's Peace, a spelt ageless Oprah esque figure
(23:49):
who also works with celebrities like Dakota Johnson. So firstly,
I want to know how did it feel to even
be in the same sentence as Oprah. It was pretty amazing.
I was like wow, I said, okay, Jessica, I love you.
Then you forgave her a little bit, right, Yeah. That
was like wow, because she didn't I didn't allow how
to use my name, and so wow did she really?
(24:09):
I was like, thank you? And that's what journalists do
if if someone says, don't use my name, we have
to honor that, and that's what's so important about that process. Absolutely,
and she was very she was very gracious to me.
I mean, we sat down and we talked, and she
was very understanding. She understood why I was reluctant, and
I was finding out a lot of stuff at that time,
(24:30):
and Rachel and this, it was like, Wow, it's a
lot of head spending, probably processing time for years. And
you also do think about, like, why did this happen
to me? What drew her? What did I do to
invite this into my life? And then at the end
of the day, it's like, this is someone's child who
needed some help, and I have no regrets except that
(24:52):
she didn't use her very clever brain to do better. Right,
So I want to go back to the article to
references that I think we're at least as a reader
and also someone who has seen the show, seemed like
milestone events for you in terms of your relationship with Anna,
the aftermath of the Morocco trip, where we really started
to see you as a character and also as a
(25:14):
figure in the story, having conflicted feelings about abandoning this
person who you sense was in need, but also having
to protect yourself from that drama. That must have been
a difficult balance. Oh my goodness. You know that's the part,
you know, when I was watching, it was hard to watch.
I watched that piece last because it would trigger. You know,
(25:35):
the whole Morocco episode was triggering for you. It was
triggering for me because we all ate the same exact food.
I didn't understand like I thought I had ebola. I
was so sick. I was looking my rooms were showing.
I was like, oh my gosh, I gotta get home.
It was horrible. And before that it was a nice time.
But Edna was still going through. She was crying in
(25:57):
her room and I like, what's Nan And I was like,
oh god, I'm missing all this great son. What the heck?
You're like, I came here all the way for this.
I was like, oh man. And then Rachel is like,
you know, babying or like, oh well when you know,
and I was like, oh, these two bitches me relax,
uh oh, glad, I have a boy. It's the ultimate
(26:22):
example of I remember my parents saying I need a
vacation from this vacation really, and I definitely needed a
vacation from that vacation. I'm in this beautiful place that
I've always dreamt of going. And it was magical and
that was exactly the place we stay. That was I mean,
I saw my bedroom and my suite over there. I
(26:44):
was like, this is they did a great job. Felt surreal,
Oh my goodness, But it was you know, this is
like a job to me because she's been doing this
documentary and we're going to get her doing all tennis
and working out and showing her healthy and and that
she's going for it. But it's just so wild that
(27:04):
when I was so sick and I had to leave,
and I said, can you please, can you give me
my return ticket because I have to leave? I look
at me. So she said, well, we don't have return tickets.
Just I was like what And so I was like
and I said, he had take my credit card. Please
just get me a flight, please, please, Rachel. And she
was nice enough to do that for me. And just
(27:26):
going out and just walking down when the when the
security god said, you know, where are you going? I
thought they were saying you're so sick, where are you going?
You thought they were worried about too. Yeah, And so
you look back on all of that and you know
what's going on, It's like, wow, do you get the
vacation the universe might even have? Wow? I was taken
(27:47):
out of a situation that I really could have been
caught up in. And I know that I've been like, Okay,
let's make this work. He has credit cards, here's this,
And it was like Universe said, this is not your story.
Here you go get sick a litt bit. You'd be
all right boot in a minute, just get home a
bit of a blessing, right yes to this day, I
know that this was divine intervention. Wow. And I want
(28:09):
to talk about one of their milestone moments in the article.
This is after the trip sort of the aftermath continues
where Anna showing up at your building. She's very broken down.
She's sort of hysterical, and she is threatening to hurt herself.
But this I guess, um, oh, it's all afraid to
(28:33):
be alone tonight. She knew how that would affect me
towards suicide around like that for me as a reader,
and also again watching the show, this is where it
gets scary and coercive and really worrying. Take me back
to how you felt aside from being so annoyed with
her at this point what was your emotional state. Wow,
(28:58):
this is a hard one for me because it it
broke me because I saw her in the same dress
that she had been wearing for a long time. I
saw something that wasn't right, and I tried to get
to the bottom of it. And it was four hours
it turned out to be almost morning before I realized
that she really needed to stay with me because she
was lost. She had nowhere else to go. I said,
(29:21):
I said, why don't you go back to the hotel.
We'll get it together tomorrow. I said, get some rest,
And she says, no, I can't go back there. I can't.
She's I'm afraid what I would do to myself. I
don't know what to do. How am I going to
make these people understand? And there was something else going on,
But I'm looking at her, and I'm looking at her
feet and looking at this clothing. I'm like, this is
not Anna. That's always so put together. And and even now,
(29:43):
I mean I can I can cry thinking about this
young lady was out there and I thought that maybe
she was sleeping on a bench and maybe someone hurt her.
You know, I didn't know. She got me mat to jail,
and she had no place to go because she looked broken,
and I'm looking at her, It's like, this is again
someone's child and they are in this country by themselves.
(30:07):
And she was babbling about so many things she made
no sense. I must have felt really scary. Yeah, and
it felt scary, but it also it felt like, man,
this girl needs to go home. And that's what I
said to her. I said, you need to go home
and regroup, be with your family, come back stronger. And
she was like they were in Africa and they're on
(30:29):
somewhere and they're doing something. It was always something, but
this was real broken Anna. This wasn't like a fake
because she had no place else to go. It wasn't
the prettiest moment. And every time I go back and
I think about getting sick and going back, and then
the idea that she calls me from Casablanca and that
they were going to arrest her, and like, how I
(30:50):
talk these people out and not arresting her. It is
only by her crazy God, you know, I used everything.
I tried, every credit card. Friends, I'm so that that
it didn't work, because my friends would hate me right now,
My sister, my friends, they all gave me He's like,
oh sure, and I was like, he's good for it.
I promised it was my credit card wasn't working. Oh mg,
(31:12):
that was something else. Well, we're going to take a
quick break, but we'll be right back. And now we're
(31:32):
back to the interview. So another milestone moment in the
article and of course in the series is the infamous
intervention where you go to lunch with Rachel and under
the guys of just having a girl's lunch, Anna shows
(31:54):
up and you sort of lay down the law and
say you have to fix this problem after she stole
Rachel's money. Firstly, tell us what that was like when
it really happened, and walk us through what it was
like to see that represented in the series. I was
so angry at Anna. I was so pissed what she
was doing to Rachel because Rachel was calling me and
(32:15):
I was running in the park and Rachel called me
and she said that, you know, this is what's going on,
and Anna is a con So that was the first
time that word had been used to describe Anna. Yeah,
I mean, she was crying so much. I was like, okay,
Rachel stopped for a second. In the meantime, Anna is
blowing my phone up and it's in my lobby and
(32:38):
wants to hang out. And I said, I said, when's
the last time you saw And he said, I can't
even reach Anna. I was like, really, because she's telling
me this and I'm saying, well, she's calling me now.
And I said, okay, we're gonna put a stop to this.
We're gonna find out the truth. And I said, meet me.
And I was with a client of mine, and I said, okay.
I said, we're gonna corner her. We're gonna both face her,
(32:59):
and she's got to tell the truth. And that's what
was in my head, you know. But I didn't realize
and I asked Nicole to pick her up that I
wasn't thinking that Nicole had her own set of issues
that I should have never brought her around. This is
your client, yes, and I should never have brought it.
She said, well, I'm going that way anyway. I'm gonna
be walking home, so I might as well just I
(33:20):
could just drop her off. By the time I got this,
she had already had brought a couple of bottles of
rose and and and Anna sitting there just like loving
you see her in the show and join her Rose too.
That was she was brilliant. She got there right. So
when we got there and we walked in, it was
so shocking to me because they were there. This is
(33:40):
a little different than within the series. When we walked in,
she was there and she was like, oh, hello, Anna
was waiting for you in the restaurant because I had
to meet Rachel. And on the way to the restaurant,
Rachel's like, I don't know, she's stop it. I said,
just stop. I said, you just off this crying doesn't
(34:00):
stand in your palace and you can't walk in there
and be the victim. I said, you gotta. We have
to be powerbl we gonna approach. We're gonna go on
on her and say we want the truth right now,
which we want the truth. So as a unified front,
the two of you had to do this together, right
Because I finally called said what's going on with Rachel's money?
She says, I'm gonna pay her? What are you talking about?
I just spoke to her. I said, I told her
(34:23):
I was going to have a check for her. And
Rachel's telling me she went to get out want to
pick up a check. She wasn't even there. Well this didn't.
And I was like, Okay, she doesn't know that Rachel
was talking to me because she didn't really know that
Rachel even had my number. So Rachel's telling me one
thing and it's telling me another thing. And I said, Okay,
we're gonna straighten this stuff out, and was part of
(34:43):
you just thinking why am I involved in this? Like,
oh my god, pack me away from this chaos. When
I finally got there, I was like, what the heck?
Because I had my client who was like, she was really,
she was really good. Fine, Anna going like she's mouth
and she's crazy and so look again Anna trying to
get that Nicole is behind it acting crazy, and I'm
(35:03):
like and Rachel is whining and crying, and I'm like, oh, shoot,
this is a mess that I that I actually created here.
So I was like, I wanted everybody just to sit
down for a minute and just let's just talk this up.
But Anna was not even cheap, was so dog and pooh.
She didn't really lose it until one point where she
was like, why are you being a dramatic Rachel? Why
(35:26):
are you crying? Why are you doing this dude? Why
are you being like a so dramatic, ending dramatic. You
always pretend to promote peace, but really you just love
a riot. You crave drama. You've left her in a
horrible situation. She's about to lose her apartment, she can
lose her job. And I couldn't help but say, you
stole her money. What do you think she's upset about?
(35:49):
It was like the idea that she says, what do
you so what? He's a dramatic. I just couldn't believe
what was happening. So you're the one who told her
that the building she wanted had been rented. Yes, the
reason why it said because my ex boyfriend who was
Swedish and she he said, oh, by the way that
building is bought. But is this? Is she involved in this?
And I was like what? So I showed it to her.
(36:10):
Did her tenor change when you shared that with her? No?
She was more like this fake news. But you can
see that she started to get a little bit antsy.
And then Nicole said, would you like some more? But
he wants some want to order something, wants to rose
and she says, yes, I love I love some and
she ate So after all that, she's still stuck around
(36:31):
and ate she we were in the midstage because Nicole
was ordering stuff and ordering like things to eat and
like she was she was eating. To what degree did
that whole event signal for you? This is the beginning
of the end for this person. That was when I
knew she was definitely a con. Okay, she was not
(36:55):
who she said she was, you know, because all the
things she was was doing to Rachel she was. She
even said she had a check and then Rachel went
there and she said I lost the check. I mean
there were things that I was like, what right? So
I walked away from that saying I'm done. I can't
do this. My client called me the next day. She
(37:17):
was goat and she was like, they why don't you
pull on the endo. It was like, Uh, it wasn't
the Casey moment that I wanted it to be. That's
for sure. I was like, oh Jesus, it's like, what
did I do? But I now, you know, I noticed
it a little bit more boundaries and and not to
just because someone is willing to do something for you,
like not to bring them into something that I don't
(37:38):
really know what I'm walking into. I thought it would
be like she would saying okay, because I mean I
offered to pay her home way home. I opened to
call her parents. I open to give her money to
go to the to Europe, to get to the bank
and everything. I said, don't worry about the money you
owe me. I said, just pay. I said, don't even
worry about it. Let's just get Rachel's money. How can
we do this fast? How can we do this? Anna?
(38:00):
She's like, I told you the money is coming. It said,
da da whatever. I'm sorry that I do have voice,
but it's like I hear it in my head. You know.
Tell me about your overall emotional response to the show,
outside of those moments that I know we're triggering and
difficult to watch. Was there something that stuck out to
you as funny, something that surprised you. What were your
(38:22):
favorite scenes? I mean, for la Berne scenes. I think
our sex love magacine was absolutely astronomically sensational. We'll have
to rashing it and we work up a swap. M hm.
(38:46):
She looked really hot. Not. I was like, okay, girl,
you did that was really how I would have done it. No,
that was really great and um it was sweet. Great moments.
You know what I love I loved some of the
banter with Anna Smith in their office and they're they're
(39:09):
all helping her, you mean, with with Anna Klumsky's character
and her coworkers, Yes, and her co workers. I loved
the banter. It was fast moving and it was sassy,
and it was just so it was so New York
because I saw I take ba. That was a great
scene when they were like and when I said, yes
that I would do in everybody class, Okay, thank you,
(39:40):
but I'm gonna get an elevator for them in my house.
I was like yeah, And I was like, oh, I'm
classing for me. Were there are parts of the story
that you didn't know about that show to you that
(40:00):
took place that maybe you just weren't even aware pet happened. Yeah,
a lot of Anna's relationship. I didn't know how deep
this love affair was. That was interesting, you know, because
I didn't get anything from her like that. I asked
her about, you know, I said, what you're dating? Do
you have a boyfriend and you know, you know, do
you want to date someone? She says, I don't. I've
had it right now with Matt. He's I've been hurt
(40:22):
and I've had it. So she never really told you
about her romantic life. She just said that she was hurt.
Someone heard her and I said, I can be late.
And again I told less that you cannot let that
bring you more bad relationships. That was one and learned
from it and then let it be your radar. Do
not let it just drag you down, because you know,
some women say, I'm never gonna let that happen to
(40:44):
me again. I'm never gonna trust anybody again. I'm never
never gonna every and they just keep attracting that same thing.
So we talked about that a bit, and oh I
didn't know about her parents. That moved me because I
was like her parents for so long, you know, for
those months. And when I when her mother's said that,
you know, we give birth to our children, but you know,
(41:05):
we don't control the narrative who they are, how would
they become? That hit me because that now I'm looking
at Anna and I'm like, Wow, this is someone child,
this is the parents, you know, and this is what
they were going through. And then I felt like I
was happy that I gave her the time that I did,
you know, because I wasn't one. I always want to
(41:27):
go out of them this, Come on and deck and
have a just have a nice glass of rose and talk.
And I'm happy that I spent that time with her.
I still think she was worthy of it. Has the
series given you a renewed sense of maybe warm feelings
for her and that that was time well spent? Yeah?
Seeing how how where she came from? It does it
(41:48):
makes me want her to to make better choices? What?
It makes me want her to win when she gets out.
I want her to win. I want her to win
by doing the right thing, but not toting and just
letting this bad thing be her calling card. Flip it around, right.
She has an opportunity now to be her own Casey
duke right to live live through something unpleasant. But how
(42:10):
can she turn it into something good? Yeah, without having
to hang onto that unpleasant thing? Because success is the
best revenge. That is very true. So if you could
talk to her today, what would you say to her?
I said what I said to her when she came
out of JEL and she called me to do some
video with her reunion or something, and I said I
can't do that. I said, you have a new platform here.
(42:33):
Whatever this is going to do for you? Make better choices.
You know, you're smart, girl, use your fame to do
some really great stuff. You're smart, you know, really enjoy
your life. And she could if she really put her
mind to it, if she doesn't try to let the
ego rule her. She makes her ego her friend and say, yes,
(42:57):
I did some bad things, but you know I had
some good ideas and intentions and I would have paid
people back. And I'm gonna do this this arts club,
and I'm going to show people that I'm going to
I hope that she will take that direction. Maybe some
humility will come with age as well. Let's hope. So
let's hope. So I'm just I am optimistic. Well that
(43:20):
is your calling card and actually a perfect segue to
my final question, which is we got to hear a
lot of your great mantras in the show. You're obviously
someone who lives everything she preaches. So what is your
mantra this is getting you through the days? These days?
I think my mantra right now is this is your life, Casey,
(43:41):
and it's the very life of lives and the time
you have left live it to the fullest. Hey, we
can't end on any better note than that. So I
want to say thank you so much, Casey for joining us.
This was so fun, so moving. Thank you for being
so raw with us. And I think again, the story
continues to take on new shapes, new angles, and you've
added even more dimension to it. So thank you so much. Well,
(44:02):
thank you and thank you Chant for giving me this
opportunity in this platform. And I know my parents in
heaven and they are absolutely so happy and they love
her work and and I'm just blessed to be a
part of this. And I hope good things happen to
everybody involved and that we all do better. I agree.
(44:24):
Thank you so much, Thanks so much for you guys,
thank you for spending time with us behind the scenes
of inventing Anna. Next week we'll be back with three
very special guests. I'm so excited. I'll be talking with
legendary theater actors Jeff Perry, Anna Davia Smith, and Terry Kenney.
(44:44):
That's right, Scribe, Area is headed your way. Something about
this little Greek chorus of old people sent to journalism Siberia.
I think Anna took issue with you using the word
old just now, by the way, I like sorry, I
was the only old one. Sorry if you're enjoying this show, subscribe,
(45:05):
share with your friends, rate, and leave us a review.
All that good stuff. And if you haven't finished binging
Shonda Lands Inventing Anna on Netflix, please go do that.
We don't want to spoil it for you. Inventing Anna
the Official Podcast is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, Lauren Hohman,
Tyler Clang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and editor is
(45:27):
Nicholas Harder, and the show is produced and hosted by
me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is
a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I
Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit
(45:47):
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shondaland
Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to Inventing
Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the making
of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your host,
Stacy Wilson Hunt, and today I'm chatting with celebrity fitness
(00:21):
trainer Casey Duke, who you probably know as the character
played by Laverne Cox in the series. Casey has spent
decades getting Hollywood stars like Denzel Washington and Dakota Johnson
in fighting form for the big screen, but she never
could have imagined that she'd be a key figure in
one of the craziest stories ever told. Casey and I
chat about what it was like to train Anna Delvi,
(00:42):
how it felt to witness her ensuing meltdown, and how
seeing this saga play out on screen has only reinforced
how important it is to stand in her power. Hello, Casey,
it's so nice to meet you. How are you. I'm great,
(01:04):
Thank you for inviting me in. I'm excited. Of course,
you are so central to this story. But before we
talk about Anna Delby, I'd actually love to talk about
you in your life. You've led a very interesting life.
You're very accomplished person. Uh native New Yorker. I'd love
to know more about how and where you grew up.
I am definitely a native New Yorker. I grew up
in Brooklyn. What part of Brooklyn, Well, you know, it's
(01:25):
the the folk Green into Park Slope, Brooklyn Heights area.
Because it was for Green Park was like my playground.
I used to live in Park Slope. I love that area.
You know. I have a lot of dolls buried in
Fulk Green Park, a lot. If we see a little
plastic hands sticking up from the dirt, we shouldn't be scared,
not at all. So you were there before all the
(01:46):
hipsters came in and you know, jacked up the housing prices.
Oh yeah, we were. We were there for for many
more years before that. When I was married to my
first husband, we lived in Douglass and Queen's Wo had
my first workout studio. Then you know, to Manhattan and
I've been a a big Apple girl for many years
and I love this city. Love it. You know, you
(02:10):
want to slap it sometimes, but it just gives you
such good energy that it just keeps you on your toes,
you know, I'd love to know how you got into
the training business for you an athlete as a young person,
how did this line of work come into your life. Well,
if you had to give a picture of case, you
duke the early years, I would say that I was
doing track and field in school and then dance class
(02:32):
after school. The way that I see it is that
the melding of those two they gave me this edge
because the way that I trained is very it's very graceful,
yet it has the athleticism of the track and field
and the grace of the dance. And so I just
used those two things because I sawt out thinking I
was gonna be a dancer, and it just didn't work
(02:53):
out for me. Too long to get a solo number one,
It wasn't good enough. But I tried and everybody but
they smoked and they drank. It was like dancers were
not as healthy as I thought. So I think that
it was a transition for me to go into something
that I can still have movement and I can still
(03:13):
be athletic into a class. And I think that's what
really put me on the map, is my aerobics classes,
my group fitness classes. That was the turning point for me.
And you know, then I decided I wanted to do
personal training because I really wanted to do. I want
to go for the anatomy of movement. I wanted to
really go in a way where I can manipulate muscle
(03:35):
fibers and design a body. And that's what I did.
I can knock myself up with a feather because I
don't really know how it all came together, but it
was obviously you know, the universe doing its thing. Well.
You know, I think we see with every successful person
hard work ultimately leads to success. It may take time,
(03:57):
but if you stick to your truth and how to
have confidence in who you are and what you do,
it'll all work out. And I would love to know
more about what I would call your holistic approach to training.
You aren't just forcing people to do burpies. You're having
them do the burpies, but you're also having them reflect
on their emotional state. I was saying when I first
(04:18):
started incorporating mindfulness into my movement. You know some of
the editors that say, well, is it like yoga? Said No,
it's not yoga. I said, you know, it's emotional, spiritual,
and physical and I didn't mean spiritual as a religion.
I just meant how to become your own life's motivation.
And they said, well, can you get a tight ask
from it? And I was like absolutely, because everybody wants
(04:40):
a tight ass. That's so I said, sure, you can,
let me show you how. The first thing is that
I always say, it's mindset, motivation, and movement. The mindset,
motivation and movements seemed to like really click with people
because it was like, you know, admit where you're coming from,
admit what you need to change, and love yourself in
your current form, no matter a health flaw that might be,
(05:01):
and then we can go about changing it right. You
have to be honest with yourself at this point, and
that's the mindset, and then the motivation is finding people
to help you because sometimes it's hard to do it alone.
And then the movement is the last part. People go
on and off their track because they're always coming from
a physical place. I want to look like this. I
(05:22):
want to look like this, but when you work on
your strengthening that first component the mindset, and then you
go to the next one is how do I motivate
myself so I can stay on this course, the movement,
it's gonna happen, it's gonna come, it's gonna be everything
you needed to be, and you're gonna stay with it longer.
Not saying that you're not gonna go off sometimes because
we all do, We all, you know, go off the road.
(05:42):
I just say, don't build a house there. That is
so well put. Let's shift gears a little bit too.
When you first found out that Shonda land is going
to be making a serious firstly, what did you think
about that? And tell me about meeting Lavern, knowing that
this person who's this incredible actor, this incredible activists, who
brings so much soulfulness to her own work was going
(06:02):
to be playing you in this show. I mean just
talking to Shonda and just you know, meeting her and
having the zoom within her war room with I mean
this long table with these how wrong how many writers
and you know, show runners or whatever they were. I
was just like, I can't believe this. Your little star struck. Yeah,
(06:23):
of course, I mean, who wouldn't be. That was an
amazing experience. And I tell my son about that all
the times I'm saying this. You could tell my grandkids.
We explained this to them because they need to remember
this moment. Was it cathartic for you to be able
to share your intel and your emotional journey with people
who were going to be able to respect what you
were telling them and also use it in a way
(06:44):
that wasn't exploitive. Absolutely, it's not the prettiest story. Maybe
people will think that we were all like, well, why
will we taken while we why do we do it?
You know, this is our journey and to be able
to talk about it. It's better than the therapy, to
to like get it out and know that the world
(07:04):
has seen a part of me. I'm not losing I'm
not allowing Anna to make me change my view of
trusting people, of seeing the greatness and people of wanting
to help people. If anything, she reaped that up right.
You didn't want this experience to make you reluctant to
(07:25):
help people in the future, and I appreciate Shanda giving
me this opportunity in Jessica. And then we can get
to Laverne. Right, So tell me about your first conversation
with Laverne. What did you talk about, What fears did
you share with her? What did she say to allay
any concerns that you may have had for how she
(07:45):
was going to take on this journey of playing you
in the show. Well, you know what, when we met,
we decided that, well, let me train you first. Let
me just show you what I do. And what was
her experience. She was fired up. She was like, Ga
moved Czy Laverne sound in good shape too, by the way,
first time where she said, I haven't shape. But wait
(08:07):
a minute, you know, And and that's the difference. People
are used to doing that same thing. When you and
jet something else into your training program, you're always going
to be feeling it. And like she watched me train,
and she and I trained her, and I showed a
different exercises and she was watching everything. And then I said,
I would love to take you to lunch, you know,
and we can talk. We did a four hour lunch
(08:29):
and I said, I'm going to tell you my life story.
I'm gonna tell you everything, and can I ask you anything?
And she said absolutely. And I told her things that
I really don't talk about so that she will understand
the depth of me, you know, because I'm I'm more
than a pair of thighs and more than an assid
(08:50):
arm you know, I'm a heart, in a mind and
a spirit, and I really want her to understand that,
and she did. I'm so sorry, Oh, don't apologize. Think
about what I told her years later, you know. I
mean after two marriages, one grade one second one horrible,
and what my son had to see and what I'm
(09:13):
proud of, how I didn't hide things from him because
I wanted him to see, this is who you will
never be. Mommy is gonna be fine, but I need
you to see this that you do not think that
this is what you want to be. I'm giving you
the real truth of this, and I took chances with that,
and I had to tell us if this is who
I am. So when I'm helping someone, I've got a
lot of stuff that I know what it is to
(09:36):
struggle after what I've been through in my lifetime getting
my ass kicked enough time to someone you know no more.
And I needed her to know that there's energy out
there that you can that you can get on the
trajectory up. I always say, look at yourself and find
that some wonderful moment that happened to you, some amazing moment.
Like everyone, I want to contest and I was like
(09:58):
ten years old and my parents are like, I can't
believe you want. I can't believe she won. You know,
I would say, because I personality and not remember that
moment or when I first got my first TV show
and I did something. It's like that lives in me.
And whenever I get I feel like I'm getting off,
I go back and I get those I get that
energy and I get that energy. So everything that I've
(10:19):
been through, it becomes my radar, or it becomes my energy.
That ex husband that did that, he is in my
mind's eye he has a dumps hat on sitting in
a corner. It is back to me and what I
want to feel like. And remember the bad bitch that
I am might say, turn around, I say thank you
because you told me everything. I never would have ever, ever,
(10:40):
ever having a man ever again, I would choose better.
And I needed her to know these things because that's
what makes me me understand someone else's plight. I can
see nobody's perfect what's perfection? What's perfection? But one's perception.
So how I see you and perceive you. I'm gonna
look for the greatness in you first. I'm not going
to be the victim and the path hold me back.
(11:02):
It is what makes me who I am. And she
listened to me and she let me ask questions about her.
I asked, how does it feel to be the woman
you always wanted to be? She would feel amazing. It
was a great, a really great talk, and I really
needed needed her to know so she can build from
that too, right, And first, I just want to say
(11:22):
thank you for sharing that. I know it's not an
easy thing to talk about. And then secondly, what a
gift to give an actor to really take that person
inside your soul and explain how that is informing your
approach to teaching people how to be fit to feel better.
I'm just so happy that Seanda chose her, and I'm
(11:42):
just happy to be in this historical moment. Okay, there's
much more to the story coming up right after this. Okay, everybody,
welcome back to Inventing Anna, the official podcast. Now we're
(12:09):
going back around five years when you first met Anna,
and you probably couldn't have worked with someone so counter
to your own person. These concepts you've described were so foreign,
the idea of being open and laying bare her fears
and her hesitations about herself. Tell me about, first of all,
what your career was like at that point, who your
(12:30):
clients were around that time, and again bring us back
to that first meeting with Anna. Well, you know what
the thing with Anna is that she wasn't like a
lot of women that would come to me at first glance.
You know, they come in and they all want someone
else's body, so they want the cosmetic transformation. Yes, that's
what they're focusing on. And Anna was no different than
any other young woman. So she didn't come in saying that.
(12:53):
I said, Wow, she's crazy. You know, she was a
young woman that was full of ambition, She knew what
she wanted. I think she said that she loved the
idea that she heard that I was training to call
to Johnson. She was kind of like drawn to me
because of that. You know, was this before after fifty shades?
Were you getting the code and shape four fifty shades?
(13:14):
Or was this after? Well this the second, second and
third one, okay, But at the same time I had
left to go to Russia to do a press thing
with Kate Beckinsale. So she was in the midst of
a lot, you know, me traveling and a lot of
people they loved the idea of being with like a
celebrity trainer give me a break, well, especially Anna, especially Anna.
(13:35):
But she was she wasn't really rude, you know, in
the beginning. She really wasn't rude to me. She was
rude to people around her. Even in the gym, she
was a little rude. Do you think that she saw
in you more of a mentor figure than than she
was used to being around, because you really did bring
this energy into her life that it seems, and I'm
not an expert, that she didn't really have from anyone else.
(13:57):
Is that true? I think so. I would. I would
hope so, because she I think she wasn't expecting me
to approach her in this way because when she was
working out, I was like, Okay, we need to work
on a couple of things. I said, you need to
pull your enabled towards your spine. That is your creative center.
I said, you go in front of these people who
you want money from. And she was saying that she's
(14:18):
having these meetings. You have to go in there with confidence,
don't sink into your body, pull up. Up. How you
do this is how do you do everything on half athic?
Your toys and done beautiful, and we talked about the whole,
my whole you know, bad bitch philosophy is like, it's
(14:40):
not about you being mean to anyone. It's more unless
you're walking in your power and it helps your posture.
And she was very open to that. So there were
elements that she didn't do anything that most young women
or most people don't do. Instead of just saying, you know,
in casey, this is really hard, I need a break
for a minute, she was more like, my phone, I
need to that's something you can do this Paine is
(15:02):
weakly sleeping the body. Anna off your phone, experience the
beauty at this moment when is over fifteen seconds, keep
going every rep, house, every rap. You know. Anna just
had a a tick of sorts. It was almost like
someone was like holding a mirror and watching their every move.
(15:24):
That's interesting. So everything was like even when she was
working out, she was like, am I doing this as
anybody watching me? You know what I'm saying? She was,
I think working on who she was becoming, right, But
she was very nice. She didn't she didn't mess with
me because I put her in a place really quickly,
and she really liked me. She liked hanging out with me,
but and I really liked her. I wanted her to succeed.
(15:45):
That's why I introduced it to some people that I
thought that she would because she had no friends. You know,
she living in a hotel. And you are a parent
in real life and a grandma ana grandma, which is
so impressive. If people could just see the way you
look right now, you are so glam and so fit
and so youthful looking. It's really quite a certain I do.
(16:06):
I'm a glamor girl, that's for sure. We do have
that in common with the Verne and I. But there's
something sort of sweet in the idea that maybe she
was getting a maternal energy from you that she really needed.
Whether or not you were consciously giving that energy to her,
it seems from what I've read in the story and
obviously watching the in the series, that there was some
(16:29):
level of comfort that you provided to her. Were you
aware of that interaction, yes, because I would say I
want you to succeed, And I told I said, you know,
I have some your age. You know I mean this.
I said, you're doing great things. I want you them
to take you seriously. Because she would always say they're
not taking me serious. The meeting is canceled. There was
always something about someone doing something to her with this thing,
(16:50):
and I don't know what I'm gonna do, but I
always have said, you know what, take it easy, you know,
go here and just relaxed or something. So I did
have I did take her onto my wing a bit,
and she had a dog on great idea, and I
was happy that she just wasn't just you know, wasting
it on some other nonsense. She was really, I don't know, girls,
(17:11):
just I want to do is just shop, Not that
she didn't. She really had wanted to do something, and
I bought into it because that's what I saw. We're
also an entrepreneur yourself. You appreciated that this woman was
taking control of her life, starting her own business. What's
not to like about that? Exactly? And it reminded me
of me when I you know, my parents always say
(17:32):
you agree, why don't you just do something else? Was
this like fifthness stuff, And it's like, I'm so happy
that I didn't listen to them, and they're so happy
that I didn't listen to them. That's why I raised
my son. Do you don't play it? Say jump and
let the net appear. Really go for your dreams. Even
if you fail, you'll learn something from that failure. I
think big, dream big, and that's what I really saw Nanna.
(17:56):
She was dreaming big. I mean for her to her
and steal from people and rip people off. Right, there's
dreaming big, and then there's within the confines of the law. Yeah,
there's the law. Let's see. A word that has come
up in a lot of these interviews with the real
life folks but also the actors who have worked in
the show is this term of shape shifter and how
(18:18):
Anna herself was sort of depending on whom she was with.
She was changing that version of herself to either suit
the situation or suit the person. What version of Anna
do you think you experienced. I think it was the
vulnerable Anna, and I think it was the Anna that
needed a confidant. I think she needed someone who was
like a mother maybe mother is not the right word,
(18:39):
with someone that she could lean on, that she can trust,
that she knew was solid. My trust allowance doesn't come
until the first and the business that don't take me
seriously just because of it. I know about misindependent, independent woman,
but lot has happened to you? You were moved? Have
(19:04):
you called your parents? What happens? I don't un this
stuff to me. They don't have to understand you that
your parents they love you. She knew I had, you know,
kids and grandkids. She knew that I had a home.
She knew that I like to eat healthy, she knew
that I would always say, like, what are you eating tonight?
Where you going tonight? Or what do you know? I said,
you know, you gotta get up early tomorrow. Don't go crazy.
(19:25):
You know someone that really was interested in like she
would call just case him having a moment. You have
the time to talk, and she might just rattle on.
But I think she just needed someone that was a
more mature figure in her life, but at the same
time was super cool. And I could have a glass
of rose with her and invite her to a dinner
party and she would feel comfortable. And I always said,
(19:47):
and you're an old soul, and you're also one of
the few people in her life who she perceived didn't
want something from her. You were solid in your career,
you were solid and who you were, you didn't need
anything from her. And maybe there was a comfort in
the I think so. Yeah. Remember the first time she
came over, when she came up with the dinner party
that I, you know, I gave so she could meet
some interesting people, artists and directors, and she bought a
(20:10):
bottle of Dumperon and I thought that was like, this
is too much, Like, well, she doesn't know I had
that so many bottles of this. It's okay, It's like
it's like the bottles of it. How's my another? That's
pretty good. I have to say that bottles of it?
But I was thinking, girl, you have to spend this money.
I have tons of wine. This is a lot. This
(20:30):
is your birthday, it's your birthday coming up. You know,
it's just so um. She wanted to impress you. It
sounds like she did. And I mean, I always tell
the story about how she said to me one day.
She says, he say, you have great hands. Your your
hands are really nice. Your nails are just so weak.
You need to have this nail polish. Is something for
a nail polish. And I was like, and I don't
really wear a lot of because I worked with weights.
(20:52):
And she says, no, but this is a neutral, this
is right for you. And she was right. She did
give you some long lasting advice. Then I'd love to
talk now about your first meeting with Jessica Pressler, who
did such a fantastic job reporting this circus of a story, right,
and obviously you were very close to her, you gave
(21:14):
her all this great intel. But then also tell me
about your ultimate decision to pull your name from the article.
You know. I think it started with when Rachel did
an article and I didn't know about it, and then
all of a sudden, somebody's calling me from some place
of fat check something. I said, what, and and just
to refresh people's memories, Rachel wrote a first person piece
(21:37):
for Vanity Fair about Anna, and so in that piece
you were referenced, and thus the fact checker called you yes,
and I said, you cannot use my name, okay, I said, no,
no way. It just felt very sleazy to me, and
I didn't want you any my clients to feel like
that was in the midst of some craziness, and I
was just protecting myself and my brand. I told Rachel
(21:59):
we should contact Anna's parents. We could find them online
or something. So you spoke to Anna's parents. Now, he
says she wanted to think about it, and then I
see her article today. If she would have told me
that she was going to do this to try to
reap the money back from you know, what she lost,
(22:21):
maybe I would have said, Okay, how are you gonna
do this? Okay, well, well she did rip you off.
I can't that. I cannot, you know, Deny. So I
think that with Jessica it was just too much because
I was like, whoa, another one, Wait a minute, wait
a minute, Casey, I need your story. I am done
with Annadelphia in her chaos, please. And I was afraid
(22:45):
that it was going to show me in a bad light,
you know, because there's a party of just saying that
did I create this person with you know, being a
graceful gangster? Did I create this person being a bad
Was this sort of like a Frankenstein thing where you
empowered her so much? Right? Yeah? It just comes crashing
down like whoa, this person is not who you thought
she was. This woman is like in the news as
(23:07):
a psycho, and here this person is calling me. And
then I actually I think I said to Jessica, that's
not me, and she said, Casey, we know this is you.
So you tried to get out of it. I tried
to get out. It was so many times people were
asking me, this sounds like you, this sounds like you,
and I was like no, no, no, so I denied it.
(23:28):
It's the problem of being so good at your job
and people knew you in those circles that you couldn't
deny who you were, and they were saying things. They
were saying, well, I think she said something about an
open if you vibe with it a young angela basset Biden,
and I was like, oh, that sounds kind of cute,
but I have the quote right here that actually ends
up in Jessica's Peace, a spelt ageless Oprah esque figure
(23:49):
who also works with celebrities like Dakota Johnson. So firstly,
I want to know how did it feel to even
be in the same sentence as Oprah. It was pretty amazing.
I was like wow, I said, okay, Jessica, I love you.
Then you forgave her a little bit, right, Yeah. That
was like wow, because she didn't I didn't allow how
to use my name, and so wow did she really?
(24:09):
I was like, thank you? And that's what journalists do
if if someone says, don't use my name, we have
to honor that, and that's what's so important about that process. Absolutely,
and she was very she was very gracious to me.
I mean, we sat down and we talked, and she
was very understanding. She understood why I was reluctant, and
I was finding out a lot of stuff at that time,
(24:30):
and Rachel and this, it was like, Wow, it's a
lot of head spending, probably processing time for years. And
you also do think about, like, why did this happen
to me? What drew her? What did I do to
invite this into my life? And then at the end
of the day, it's like, this is someone's child who
needed some help, and I have no regrets except that
(24:52):
she didn't use her very clever brain to do better. Right,
So I want to go back to the article to
references that I think we're at least as a reader
and also someone who has seen the show, seemed like
milestone events for you in terms of your relationship with Anna,
the aftermath of the Morocco trip, where we really started
to see you as a character and also as a
(25:14):
figure in the story, having conflicted feelings about abandoning this
person who you sense was in need, but also having
to protect yourself from that drama. That must have been
a difficult balance. Oh my goodness. You know that's the part,
you know, when I was watching, it was hard to watch.
I watched that piece last because it would trigger. You know,
(25:35):
the whole Morocco episode was triggering for you. It was
triggering for me because we all ate the same exact food.
I didn't understand like I thought I had ebola. I
was so sick. I was looking my rooms were showing.
I was like, oh my gosh, I gotta get home.
It was horrible. And before that it was a nice time.
But Edna was still going through. She was crying in
(25:57):
her room and I like, what's Nan And I was like,
oh god, I'm missing all this great son. What the heck?
You're like, I came here all the way for this.
I was like, oh man. And then Rachel is like,
you know, babying or like, oh well when you know,
and I was like, oh, these two bitches me relax,
uh oh, glad, I have a boy. It's the ultimate
(26:22):
example of I remember my parents saying I need a
vacation from this vacation really, and I definitely needed a
vacation from that vacation. I'm in this beautiful place that
I've always dreamt of going. And it was magical and
that was exactly the place we stay. That was I mean,
I saw my bedroom and my suite over there. I
(26:44):
was like, this is they did a great job. Felt surreal,
Oh my goodness, But it was you know, this is
like a job to me because she's been doing this
documentary and we're going to get her doing all tennis
and working out and showing her healthy and and that
she's going for it. But it's just so wild that
(27:04):
when I was so sick and I had to leave,
and I said, can you please, can you give me
my return ticket because I have to leave? I look
at me. So she said, well, we don't have return tickets.
Just I was like what And so I was like
and I said, he had take my credit card. Please
just get me a flight, please, please, Rachel. And she
was nice enough to do that for me. And just
(27:26):
going out and just walking down when the when the
security god said, you know, where are you going? I
thought they were saying you're so sick, where are you going?
You thought they were worried about too. Yeah, And so
you look back on all of that and you know
what's going on, It's like, wow, do you get the
vacation the universe might even have? Wow? I was taken
(27:47):
out of a situation that I really could have been
caught up in. And I know that I've been like, Okay,
let's make this work. He has credit cards, here's this,
And it was like Universe said, this is not your story.
Here you go get sick a litt bit. You'd be
all right boot in a minute, just get home a
bit of a blessing, right yes to this day, I
know that this was divine intervention. Wow. And I want
(28:09):
to talk about one of their milestone moments in the article.
This is after the trip sort of the aftermath continues
where Anna showing up at your building. She's very broken down.
She's sort of hysterical, and she is threatening to hurt herself.
But this I guess, um, oh, it's all afraid to
(28:33):
be alone tonight. She knew how that would affect me
towards suicide around like that for me as a reader,
and also again watching the show, this is where it
gets scary and coercive and really worrying. Take me back
to how you felt aside from being so annoyed with
her at this point what was your emotional state. Wow,
(28:58):
this is a hard one for me because it it
broke me because I saw her in the same dress
that she had been wearing for a long time. I
saw something that wasn't right, and I tried to get
to the bottom of it. And it was four hours
it turned out to be almost morning before I realized
that she really needed to stay with me because she
was lost. She had nowhere else to go. I said,
(29:21):
I said, why don't you go back to the hotel.
We'll get it together tomorrow. I said, get some rest,
And she says, no, I can't go back there. I can't.
She's I'm afraid what I would do to myself. I
don't know what to do. How am I going to
make these people understand? And there was something else going on,
But I'm looking at her, and I'm looking at her
feet and looking at this clothing. I'm like, this is
not Anna. That's always so put together. And and even now,
(29:43):
I mean I can I can cry thinking about this
young lady was out there and I thought that maybe
she was sleeping on a bench and maybe someone hurt her.
You know, I didn't know. She got me mat to jail,
and she had no place to go because she looked broken,
and I'm looking at her, It's like, this is again
someone's child and they are in this country by themselves.
(30:07):
And she was babbling about so many things she made
no sense. I must have felt really scary. Yeah, and
it felt scary, but it also it felt like, man,
this girl needs to go home. And that's what I
said to her. I said, you need to go home
and regroup, be with your family, come back stronger. And
she was like they were in Africa and they're on
(30:29):
somewhere and they're doing something. It was always something, but
this was real broken Anna. This wasn't like a fake
because she had no place else to go. It wasn't
the prettiest moment. And every time I go back and
I think about getting sick and going back, and then
the idea that she calls me from Casablanca and that
they were going to arrest her, and like, how I
(30:50):
talk these people out and not arresting her. It is
only by her crazy God, you know, I used everything.
I tried, every credit card. Friends, I'm so that that
it didn't work, because my friends would hate me right now,
My sister, my friends, they all gave me He's like,
oh sure, and I was like, he's good for it.
I promised it was my credit card wasn't working. Oh mg,
(31:12):
that was something else. Well, we're going to take a
quick break, but we'll be right back. And now we're
(31:32):
back to the interview. So another milestone moment in the
article and of course in the series is the infamous
intervention where you go to lunch with Rachel and under
the guys of just having a girl's lunch, Anna shows
(31:54):
up and you sort of lay down the law and
say you have to fix this problem after she stole
Rachel's money. Firstly, tell us what that was like when
it really happened, and walk us through what it was
like to see that represented in the series. I was
so angry at Anna. I was so pissed what she
was doing to Rachel because Rachel was calling me and
(32:15):
I was running in the park and Rachel called me
and she said that, you know, this is what's going on,
and Anna is a con So that was the first
time that word had been used to describe Anna. Yeah,
I mean, she was crying so much. I was like, okay,
Rachel stopped for a second. In the meantime, Anna is
blowing my phone up and it's in my lobby and
(32:38):
wants to hang out. And I said, I said, when's
the last time you saw And he said, I can't
even reach Anna. I was like, really, because she's telling
me this and I'm saying, well, she's calling me now.
And I said, okay, we're gonna put a stop to this.
We're gonna find out the truth. And I said, meet me.
And I was with a client of mine, and I said, okay.
I said, we're gonna corner her. We're gonna both face her,
(32:59):
and she's got to tell the truth. And that's what
was in my head, you know. But I didn't realize
and I asked Nicole to pick her up that I
wasn't thinking that Nicole had her own set of issues
that I should have never brought her around. This is
your client, yes, and I should never have brought it.
She said, well, I'm going that way anyway. I'm gonna
be walking home, so I might as well just I
(33:20):
could just drop her off. By the time I got this,
she had already had brought a couple of bottles of
rose and and and Anna sitting there just like loving
you see her in the show and join her Rose too.
That was she was brilliant. She got there right. So
when we got there and we walked in, it was
so shocking to me because they were there. This is
(33:40):
a little different than within the series. When we walked in,
she was there and she was like, oh, hello, Anna
was waiting for you in the restaurant because I had
to meet Rachel. And on the way to the restaurant,
Rachel's like, I don't know, she's stop it. I said,
just stop. I said, you just off this crying doesn't
(34:00):
stand in your palace and you can't walk in there
and be the victim. I said, you gotta. We have
to be powerbl we gonna approach. We're gonna go on
on her and say we want the truth right now,
which we want the truth. So as a unified front,
the two of you had to do this together, right
Because I finally called said what's going on with Rachel's money?
She says, I'm gonna pay her? What are you talking about?
I just spoke to her. I said, I told her
(34:23):
I was going to have a check for her. And
Rachel's telling me she went to get out want to
pick up a check. She wasn't even there. Well this didn't.
And I was like, Okay, she doesn't know that Rachel
was talking to me because she didn't really know that
Rachel even had my number. So Rachel's telling me one
thing and it's telling me another thing. And I said, Okay,
we're gonna straighten this stuff out, and was part of
(34:43):
you just thinking why am I involved in this? Like,
oh my god, pack me away from this chaos. When
I finally got there, I was like, what the heck?
Because I had my client who was like, she was really,
she was really good. Fine, Anna going like she's mouth
and she's crazy and so look again Anna trying to
get that Nicole is behind it acting crazy, and I'm
(35:03):
like and Rachel is whining and crying, and I'm like, oh, shoot,
this is a mess that I that I actually created here.
So I was like, I wanted everybody just to sit
down for a minute and just let's just talk this up.
But Anna was not even cheap, was so dog and pooh.
She didn't really lose it until one point where she
was like, why are you being a dramatic Rachel? Why
(35:26):
are you crying? Why are you doing this dude? Why
are you being like a so dramatic, ending dramatic. You
always pretend to promote peace, but really you just love
a riot. You crave drama. You've left her in a
horrible situation. She's about to lose her apartment, she can
lose her job. And I couldn't help but say, you
stole her money. What do you think she's upset about?
(35:49):
It was like the idea that she says, what do
you so what? He's a dramatic. I just couldn't believe
what was happening. So you're the one who told her
that the building she wanted had been rented. Yes, the
reason why it said because my ex boyfriend who was
Swedish and she he said, oh, by the way that
building is bought. But is this? Is she involved in this?
And I was like what? So I showed it to her.
(36:10):
Did her tenor change when you shared that with her? No?
She was more like this fake news. But you can
see that she started to get a little bit antsy.
And then Nicole said, would you like some more? But
he wants some want to order something, wants to rose
and she says, yes, I love I love some and
she ate So after all that, she's still stuck around
(36:31):
and ate she we were in the midstage because Nicole
was ordering stuff and ordering like things to eat and
like she was she was eating. To what degree did
that whole event signal for you? This is the beginning
of the end for this person. That was when I
knew she was definitely a con. Okay, she was not
(36:55):
who she said she was, you know, because all the
things she was was doing to Rachel she was. She
even said she had a check and then Rachel went
there and she said I lost the check. I mean
there were things that I was like, what right? So
I walked away from that saying I'm done. I can't
do this. My client called me the next day. She
(37:17):
was goat and she was like, they why don't you
pull on the endo. It was like, Uh, it wasn't
the Casey moment that I wanted it to be. That's
for sure. I was like, oh Jesus, it's like, what
did I do? But I now, you know, I noticed
it a little bit more boundaries and and not to
just because someone is willing to do something for you,
like not to bring them into something that I don't
(37:38):
really know what I'm walking into. I thought it would
be like she would saying okay, because I mean I
offered to pay her home way home. I opened to
call her parents. I open to give her money to
go to the to Europe, to get to the bank
and everything. I said, don't worry about the money you
owe me. I said, just pay. I said, don't even
worry about it. Let's just get Rachel's money. How can
we do this fast? How can we do this? Anna?
(38:00):
She's like, I told you the money is coming. It said,
da da whatever. I'm sorry that I do have voice,
but it's like I hear it in my head. You know.
Tell me about your overall emotional response to the show,
outside of those moments that I know we're triggering and
difficult to watch. Was there something that stuck out to
you as funny, something that surprised you. What were your
(38:22):
favorite scenes? I mean, for la Berne scenes. I think
our sex love magacine was absolutely astronomically sensational. We'll have
to rashing it and we work up a swap. M hm.
(38:46):
She looked really hot. Not. I was like, okay, girl,
you did that was really how I would have done it. No,
that was really great and um it was sweet. Great moments.
You know what I love I loved some of the
banter with Anna Smith in their office and they're they're
(39:09):
all helping her, you mean, with with Anna Klumsky's character
and her coworkers, Yes, and her co workers. I loved
the banter. It was fast moving and it was sassy,
and it was just so it was so New York
because I saw I take ba. That was a great
scene when they were like and when I said, yes
that I would do in everybody class, Okay, thank you,
(39:40):
but I'm gonna get an elevator for them in my house.
I was like yeah, And I was like, oh, I'm
classing for me. Were there are parts of the story
that you didn't know about that show to you that
(40:00):
took place that maybe you just weren't even aware pet happened. Yeah,
a lot of Anna's relationship. I didn't know how deep
this love affair was. That was interesting, you know, because
I didn't get anything from her like that. I asked
her about, you know, I said, what you're dating? Do
you have a boyfriend and you know, you know, do
you want to date someone? She says, I don't. I've
had it right now with Matt. He's I've been hurt
(40:22):
and I've had it. So she never really told you
about her romantic life. She just said that she was hurt.
Someone heard her and I said, I can be late.
And again I told less that you cannot let that
bring you more bad relationships. That was one and learned
from it and then let it be your radar. Do
not let it just drag you down, because you know,
some women say, I'm never gonna let that happen to
(40:44):
me again. I'm never gonna trust anybody again. I'm never
never gonna every and they just keep attracting that same thing.
So we talked about that a bit, and oh I
didn't know about her parents. That moved me because I
was like her parents for so long, you know, for
those months. And when I when her mother's said that,
you know, we give birth to our children, but you know,
(41:05):
we don't control the narrative who they are, how would
they become? That hit me because that now I'm looking
at Anna and I'm like, Wow, this is someone child,
this is the parents, you know, and this is what
they were going through. And then I felt like I
was happy that I gave her the time that I did,
you know, because I wasn't one. I always want to
(41:27):
go out of them this, Come on and deck and
have a just have a nice glass of rose and talk.
And I'm happy that I spent that time with her.
I still think she was worthy of it. Has the
series given you a renewed sense of maybe warm feelings
for her and that that was time well spent? Yeah?
Seeing how how where she came from? It does it
(41:48):
makes me want her to to make better choices? What?
It makes me want her to win when she gets out.
I want her to win. I want her to win
by doing the right thing, but not toting and just
letting this bad thing be her calling card. Flip it around, right.
She has an opportunity now to be her own Casey
duke right to live live through something unpleasant. But how
(42:10):
can she turn it into something good? Yeah, without having
to hang onto that unpleasant thing? Because success is the
best revenge. That is very true. So if you could
talk to her today, what would you say to her?
I said what I said to her when she came
out of JEL and she called me to do some
video with her reunion or something, and I said I
can't do that. I said, you have a new platform here.
(42:33):
Whatever this is going to do for you? Make better choices.
You know, you're smart, girl, use your fame to do
some really great stuff. You're smart, you know, really enjoy
your life. And she could if she really put her
mind to it, if she doesn't try to let the
ego rule her. She makes her ego her friend and say, yes,
(42:57):
I did some bad things, but you know I had
some good ideas and intentions and I would have paid
people back. And I'm gonna do this this arts club,
and I'm going to show people that I'm going to
I hope that she will take that direction. Maybe some
humility will come with age as well. Let's hope. So
let's hope. So I'm just I am optimistic. Well that
(43:20):
is your calling card and actually a perfect segue to
my final question, which is we got to hear a
lot of your great mantras in the show. You're obviously
someone who lives everything she preaches. So what is your
mantra this is getting you through the days? These days?
I think my mantra right now is this is your life, Casey,
(43:41):
and it's the very life of lives and the time
you have left live it to the fullest. Hey, we
can't end on any better note than that. So I
want to say thank you so much, Casey for joining us.
This was so fun, so moving. Thank you for being
so raw with us. And I think again, the story
continues to take on new shapes, new angles, and you've
added even more dimension to it. So thank you so much. Well,
(44:02):
thank you and thank you Chant for giving me this
opportunity in this platform. And I know my parents in
heaven and they are absolutely so happy and they love
her work and and I'm just blessed to be a
part of this. And I hope good things happen to
everybody involved and that we all do better. I agree.
(44:24):
Thank you so much, Thanks so much for you guys,
thank you for spending time with us behind the scenes
of inventing Anna. Next week we'll be back with three
very special guests. I'm so excited. I'll be talking with
legendary theater actors Jeff Perry, Anna Davia Smith, and Terry Kenney.
(44:44):
That's right, Scribe, Area is headed your way. Something about
this little Greek chorus of old people sent to journalism Siberia.
I think Anna took issue with you using the word
old just now, by the way, I like sorry, I
was the only old one. Sorry if you're enjoying this show, subscribe,
(45:05):
share with your friends, rate, and leave us a review.
All that good stuff. And if you haven't finished binging
Shonda Lands Inventing Anna on Netflix, please go do that.
We don't want to spoil it for you. Inventing Anna
the Official Podcast is executive produced by Sandy Bailey, Lauren Hohman,
Tyler Clang, and Gabrielle Collins. Our producer and editor is
(45:27):
Nicholas Harder, and the show is produced and hosted by
me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is
a production of Shonda land Audio in partnership with I
Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit
(45:47):
the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows.
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