May 4, 2022 • 44 mins
Actor and podcaster Katie Lowes shares her unique casting experience and who she modeled the Rachel DeLoache Williams character off of. Katie tells behind the scenes stories from their time filming in Morocco, and the moment she believes everything changed between Rachel and Anna… it’s probably not what you’d expect. Stacey and Katie also discuss what it would be like owing tens of thousands of dollars, an experience with which Katie IRL is not entirely unfamiliar.
Katie has been with Shondaland for years, most notably in the role of Quinn Perkins on Scandal. She gives a glimpse inside the legendary storymaking machine and offers some insights into what makes up the Shondaland special sauce, along with her own takeaways from Inventing Anna.
To catch up before you listen, make sure you binge Inventing Anna the series on Netflix now.
Please rate, review, subscribe and share Inventing Anna: The Official Podcast with everyone you know.
Follow host Stacey Wilson Hunt @galinhollywood on Instagram and Twitter.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shonda
Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the
making of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your
host Stacy Wilson Hunt, and today I'm chatting with actor
(00:21):
Katie Lows, who plays Rachel Williams in the series. Katie
is not only a Shonda Land regular, having played Quinn
Perkins for seven seasons on Scandal, she also has her
own Shonda Land podcast, Katie's Crib. Katie has endless juicy
stories about making Inventing Anna, including shooting the show while
she was pregnant, coping with the pandemic, and traveling to
(00:41):
Morocco to film the now infamous credit card fiasco episode.
Welcome Katie, How are you today? Hi? I'm really good.
Thanks for having me, Stacy and Top. My question I
had for you was to me, this is the sort
(01:03):
of consummate New York story. You're a native New Yorker.
How much of the show spoke to you as being
that sort of only in New York kind of saga. Absolutely,
it's such a New York story. I was actually thrilled
when I found out New York is one of those
places where you fake it till you make it. And
I went to college in New York and I can
(01:24):
remember the first parties I ever slipped through the back
door to get into, you know, through like, oh, there's
this girl on our in our dorm who's a model
and dating this like five year old rich guy. Of
course you can go with her, But like really seeing
New York money, old money that like East Coast you
(01:45):
are a trust fund baby, or you've inherited lots and
you're not welcome at the club unless you have all
of that at your disposal, and just feeling like such
an outsider and feeling those vibes that are so part
of the Antadelvie world and so part of the ant
LB story. Um, it's definitely not the New York that
I know when my mother t walks like this and
I'm from Staten Island. That's the other key to this
(02:07):
is like shooting in New York, all of the transpo
guys and grips were from Ozone Park, Queens, which is
where I grew up, and they would talk to me
and like drop me off on set and I'm like
I cannot be talking like this, I said, not how
Rachel Deloch Williams talks. That is true. You were straddling
two worlds, is what you're saying exactly. And speaking, of
course of New York and journalism, the show would not
(02:29):
exist without Jessica Prestler's incredible reporting on Anna Delvi, which
was first published in May of How familiar were you
with that article when it came out in New York
Magazine and the cut? I was not aware of the
article I was in. I was aware of the story
after the fact. Again, I think as a native New Yorker,
there was this sort of folklore legend story that kind
(02:52):
of reached all of us about this chick who told
everyone that she, you know, was a German heiress and
conned people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars, like
huge real estate people in New York and private planes
and she's going to jail. And I remember all the
mumblings of that from friends of mine that still live
in New York. And then it wasn't until I was
at a scandal table read and it became public knowledge,
(03:15):
either on Deadline or something, that Shawna was making the
move from ABC to Netflix, and then it came out
shortly after that. The first story was this article, and
I remember racing home looking it up and being like,
please God, is there a part for me in this world?
Because if I could be a waitress or a babysitter
(03:38):
or like whatever, if she'll give me a part, I
would like to play in it. And I remember getting
home and reading the article and be like, oh my god,
there will be women in this world that I could
maybe play. So that was really my first intro to
the Jeff Pressler article, completely selfish. Well come on, you're
an actor. Basically, I first inter was is there a
(04:01):
part for me? Hey? You know what, that's just the
Anna Delvie hustle that you have going on there. Come on,
that's it. So of course fans know you from all
your incredible work Private Practice, Gray's Anatomy, and of course Scandal,
which you just mentioned. You're part of the Shawn A
Lane family, but you still have to kind of go
through a process to get cast. Shawn does not just
texting you saying, hey, are you free on this day
(04:22):
to start shooting? So tell me a little bit about
getting in the door to play Rachel for inventing Anna.
So I got private practice and that was my first
introduction into the Shonda land world. And Linda Lowe, who
cast at the time all of Shanda's shows, was married
to Jeff Perry. Jeff Perry was my acting teacher at
steppen Wolf. So Linda had been watching me, and so
wonderfully had constantly been calling me into Shanda, and I
(04:46):
knew that at some point maybe something would line up
that would be a good fit. And the year before Scandal,
Shawanda had a show called Off the Map. I remember,
essentially a Gray's Anatomy Doctors without Borders sort of show,
and I went in for every single female doctor. There
are a lot of female doctors on that show. It
(05:07):
was a week where I came in for Shaunda and
I nailed it, and they said, yeah, but can you
come in tomorrow and read this doctor? And I ran
home and I rememorized all those lines and I came in,
didn't get that one, and then the next day they
asked me to for the next one, and I was like, wow,
I feel connected to her, like she's trying to find
what might be a fit. Turns out it was none
of those I got fired from that babysitting job because
(05:30):
I kept just not showing up to run back to
these callbacks. I was broke. And the next year's Scandal
was my first audition back and I remember reading the
sides and it was Quinn Perkins and my middle name
is Quinn, and I was like, it's a side that
is meant to be. And I went an audition for
Shonda again. The next week. They called me back in
and I thought it was a call back, and she said,
(05:52):
I've already shown your first audition tape to the studio
network and they've approved you and I'm giving you the job.
And I sobbed and thanked her and asked everyone if
I could hug them, and it changed my life and
for inventing Anna. When Scandal was ending and I had
ran home to read the j pressl article and I
(06:12):
thought there might be something for me, I just had
a really honest conversation because other people were sort of
sniffing around that I was available. That's a good feeling, though,
that people were sniffing around. People sniffing. I mean, it
doesn't mean anything until there's anything signed on the dotted line.
But some people were sniffing around, and I remember I
don't know if I called Shawonda or I texted her,
(06:34):
and I just said, hey, like, people are sniffing around,
but I want to be with you till the end
of time, shamelessly like is there anything for me in
the show? And she was like, I really think there is.
And I was like, oh my gosh, call off the hounds.
The sniffing ends here. I'm just gonna sit around and
see because I've had the pleasure of working in Shawna
(06:55):
Land for eight years and I am not curious about
anywhere else. So it's a magical place where dreams come true. Right,
Why would you go anywhere else? That's right? And so
she called me months later and said, you're going to
play Rachel. Literally, I did not audition. She said you're
gonna play Rachel. And you know what's weird, I kind
of knew. I just felt like, of all the characters
(07:19):
in the world, that Rachel could be a fit. And
so when she called and told me, it was sort
of like the puzzle piece fitting together. And of course
I was like very emotional again, just feeling very honored
and grateful and shocked that she continuously employs me, Well,
(07:41):
you are very talented, Katie. This isn't just a fluke. Yes,
thank you. But you know, I have a lot of
talented friends. You know. I run a theater company in
l A called I Am a theater company that Shanda
comes to all of our shows, and I have a
lot of, you know, wonderful actors. And I do think
also that Shanda and I just sort of line up.
I don't know if it's the way her dialogue is,
(08:01):
in the way that I speak. There is this sort
of Shanda speak and Shanda dialogue that for whatever reason
just makes a lot of sense in my brain and
in my heart and comes out like I can memorize
her words in like one second. Well there's a real
rhythm to it. It's like such a fit for me.
You know what's cool about Shanda and her being such
(08:21):
a theater fan. I think that she likes to collect
like the ensemble vibe. So it's not coincidence to me
that Jeff Perry she keeps around, or Kate Burton, Paul Adelstein,
like there are actors who are very theatery actors. She
carries us around two shows because I think, not only
(08:43):
I think, do we deliver and we bring good vibes.
But like we bring good vibes to the table reads,
we bring the Shonda land sauce to the set, to
the crew. You know, in England they let actors play
different parts all the time. That's what they like to see.
But for some reason here other than her and like
Ryan Murphy, a lot of people don't like to carry
around actors. And I'm so relieved that when she globs
(09:06):
onto someone or thinks that they're good and wants to
keep him around, she does. She's a good friend to have. Yeah,
So I want to talk about your creation of Rachel, who,
of course is based on a real person, and yet
you still have the task of creating something new for
the screen. So tell me, when you you find out
day one you're playing this person, what was the first
(09:27):
thing you did? What did you read? Did you have
access to the role Rachel Williams. Yes, So I have
never played a real person before, and I definitely have
not played a real living person before. It's an added pressure,
isn't it. Yeah, it definitely feels like an added pressure.
That's perfect way to phrase it. But at the same
time I felt like I wasn't playing Jackie. Oh well,
(09:49):
she's not a public figure in the same sense, she's
not a person that anyone knows. And I purposefully chose
not to read her book. I didn't have the opportunit
you need to meet her, and frankly really didn't want
to because again, and yes, I did a little bit
of digging, don't get me wrong, Like it's very easy
in today's day and age to go on Rachel's Instagram feed,
(10:10):
and at the time, she was doing a lot of
publicity for her books, and she does have a public
profile that she's creaty. She has a public profile, which
again I looked at those things of maybe something that
could inspire a jumping off point, but then I really
started to just let it go and I really based
her on a friend of mine that will remain nameless. Yes,
(10:34):
when I read a Shonda script, it became far more
my responsibility to help tell the story Shonda was writing.
Of course, it's what's on the page that's guiding exactly,
and so for me it was more important that Rachel
be the vehicle in which that episode six and seven,
(10:54):
where the stakes are like no other, where the whole
table shifts and you've now conned a relatable, regular person.
So for me, it was far more all about the
stakes of the situation that this girl found herself in,
rather than me trying to mimic or do impressions of
(11:17):
the real Rachel Deloche Williams. And what helped with that
so much was actually shooting in Morocco. It wasn't until
I really got to go there and I saw the
hotel and the amount of money and I started to
feel more real to you. Yeah, and the actors were
saying to me, we're going to call the cops, where
(11:38):
I was like, holy shit, that's she's afraid, man. Like
it says that she's crying in every scene, but she's
absolutely terrified. I mean, you hear those stories as a
girl of being locked up abroad. I mean, isn't that
like a reality show or whatever? Like that ship is
scary as hell, like you know. And then for a
(12:00):
girl who makes thirty one tho dollars a year at
her dream job at Vanity Fair to be in debt
up to sixty dollars for months and months and months
at a time where your apartment is going to be threatened,
your job, and also the embarrassment, Okay, keep a firm,
(12:24):
grip on your credit cards will be right back. Welcome
back everyone to Inventing Anna the official podcast. What do
(12:50):
you think initially attracted Rachel to Anna outside of the
access that she could provide, Like you talked about your
own experiences getting through the back door of clubs and
getting the nice table at the restaurant. Was there more
to it than that, because it seems like she's a
good friend and they actually cared about each other. I
think it was a lot of things. I have this
line where Rachel's on the stand and she says she
(13:11):
was interesting. Her feed was interesting to me. Yes, what
was interesting about her or her social media feeds? Photos
of art, travel, the editor in chief? I guess at
Purple magazine, so similar careers attracted you, both working in
fashion magazines, and I maybe had a leg up. Yes,
the a DF was going to be like an artful
(13:32):
Soho house with like amazing stuff on the walls and things.
And Rachel loves art. She loves photography. It's why she
worked at Vanity Fair. Julia Garner and I always talked
about this. If she had gotten the loan for a DF,
her right hand would have been Rachel. Oh really, that's interesting.
Rachel would have been running. I have goose bumps right now.
That's how I know it's it's true in an alternate
(13:54):
reality because Anna was the dreamer and this sort of
like law the big ideas and making these big asks happen.
But I think Rachel's a work worse. It was like
Steve Jobs to Bosnia. Yeah, she's like your go to gal.
Like I think she would have been the person with
the clipboard at a d F, and I think that
that might have excited her, Like, I think that they
(14:15):
could have come up together in a way. It's interesting
and it made me think of something. When you moved
to New York. Whatever industry you're trying to break into,
there's so much of a veneer of pain dues. Right,
And you think I'm a young woman, I don't deserve
these jobs. I have to work for ten years before
I can't even be considered for that elevated position. Right.
And what Anna does is she comes in and says,
(14:36):
that's all fake. I can be considered right now, exactly.
I'm talented. Now, I have great ideas. Now I don't
want to wait. And so I think what you're speaking
to is Rachel has those same ambitions, but she's kind
of tucked into the confines of that, you know, the
Conde Nast structure. She's a rule follower, like she would
have slowly built up anything just through like hard work
(14:58):
and being like as nice person, you know, and like
playing the game correctly right, and and really I've known
people in those photo editor jobs that's do you have
to stay in a gig like that for five years
before you get promoted minimum one hundred percent. So it's
interesting to think it's more than this just this party
girl sort of accessory that she offered her. They really
(15:18):
were empowering each other. I think it was both. Yeah,
I really do. I think that they would have could
have come up together and sort of taken over New
York a little bit. Like I think they could have
been a powerful little team, especially with Nef good God, absolutely,
I mean, Nef and Rachel could just get along. But
(15:39):
and I do want to talk about but let's go
back to Morocco for a moment, because it really is
where for me the series shifts, as you said, into
something very scary for Rachel. We see Anna kind of
bilking these higher ups, these rich people along the way
and Nora and her caftans, and yeah, it feels very
Robin Hoodie at that point. We don't feel bad for
those very wealthy people, but Rachel's characters when we start
(16:01):
to personalize it. So tell me a little bit more
about shooting in Morocco. How long were you there, because
it is so stunning that I can't even believe you
had access to these places. It's just gorgeous. It was
the absolute coolest thing ever because I got to take
Adam and my son, Yes Adam is my husband, and
my son Albi, and it was the last time we
(16:23):
traveled abroad before the pandemic. You know. We landed back
in the States in the middle of February. There were
just starting to be commercials in Morocco of this thing
called coronavirus. So that just seems insane, but it was
so helpful for building the character. I mean, so Lawmmmonia,
which is the hotel that real Anastorkin and real Rachel
(16:46):
Delochi Williams stayed, where she was conned, where they stayed
in like a ten dollar a night Riod. We shot
in the Riod where this all went down, and you
step into Lama Munia and even the scent. They have
a pumped through the walls candles incense that is just
(17:08):
smells like amazing. You are somewhere other than America. Rich
Ammonia was gifted to Prince Almmon by his father in
the eighteenth century as a wedding present. Framed by the
address Montings to the north end the mosquit the east
our gardens state back to the twelfth century. It's one
(17:31):
of those places where you get served upon entrance the
most delicious almond milk moroccan tea thing, and everyone's in
these incredible outfits. I was literally staying in a room
where the guest book previous to my stay was Paul McCartney,
Hillary Clinton, Bradley Cooper. On the toilet I was using.
(17:55):
I kept saying that Adam like we are going to
the bathroom him with Bradley Cooper or like with Hilary
and Bill. I mean, it was insane and it just
really helped the like, Wow, this is where Anna called.
Rachel was like, you want to get away for the weekend.
It's on me. I would imagine as an actor too,
(18:17):
even though you're obviously incredibly prepared and do all your
due diligence the sensory experience of being smelling the air,
feeling the heat, feeling the drapey clothing, and they did
a great job. What's so cool about the episode and
what's so special about it. It's such a bottle episode
in a way, and it's its own world and its
own rules. But what's the coolest thing is that was
(18:38):
directed by this incredible director who had worked with on Scandal.
Her name is in Zinga Stewart. She's incredible. Her husband
is Moroccan, she got married in Morocco. Her husband was
with us when we shot, and so her eye to
me how she shot the episode where you see the
(18:58):
carriages next to your car ours and all the carts
and the medina and all of that stuff, I think
she captured it. So I mean, when I watched it,
I was emotional because again I haven't been out of
the country since then, and just to see another culture
so clearly and vividly. I just think the episode and
(19:18):
Netflix didn't spare any expense to make the viewers understand
what Marrakech is like, because it does help with the story.
It's because they're in Morocco and because of all that,
this all plays out the way it does. It was amazing.
We were there for three to four weeks. Wow, that's
(19:39):
a long time. What did you guys do in your
free time? If you did happening, did you go to
the gardens that we hear about the gardens? Well, no,
I didn't go because I was like, that ship costs
like two thousand dollars a ticket or whatever, which is true.
We all learned our lesson about going to those gardens.
Lessons about that um on my days off. Lynn Paulo,
who was our wardrobe and was the costume designer on
(20:01):
Scandal the whole time, did all the clothes for this
and so she was in Morocco with us and just
like running around with her. Which rugs should we get? Which?
Amazing hom says, Oh, I took a cooking class, cuscus
into jeans, and my husband was living his best effing life.
All the boys were. It was so unfair. This is
(20:22):
behind the scenes, goss. But like I'm working all day,
Julia Garner is working all day, and in Zinga, the
director is working all day. But in Zinga's husband who's Moroccan,
is there as sort of like a fun chaperone. Mark Foster,
who's Julia Garner's husband is there, and then my husband
Adam shapiros there, so they're like a trio and they
did a t V rides in the desert. They were
(20:45):
like cooking meat underneath like caravans and under the sun
like every day we were getting The girls were like
hard at work and the men are just like out
living their best lives. So we really, I think, seized
the opportunity. But it does come through. I think we're
so used to seeing locations fudge for other places, but
(21:07):
I have to say, it really does feel like you
were there, because of course now we know that you were,
so I want to go back to the Morocco trip
and the fallout. Of course the credit card call out
in a moment, but I do want to talk. You
mentioned Nef. It was obviously so crucial to this puzzle
and to the story at large, and in rewatching the series.
In episode five, when Nef is talking to Vivian about Rachel,
(21:31):
Rachel took into I can it took. I haven't paid
Anna back. Everything she wore was Anna's. I think she
was trying to be Anna. Anna put up with that.
I don't even know that she noticed. She liked it.
I mean, it's interesting, and in that moment, I wondered,
is Rachel a user herself or was she just allowing
(21:51):
herself to be kind of swept up into this Anna orbit?
What do you think? I think it's both. I think
we've all done that. I have girlfriends now that when
I see them and I love them so much, like
and they wear something and then the next day it
reminds me to wear something that's the same because it
looks so good on them. I mean, I do ship
like that all the time. We get imprinted with this
(22:14):
stuff very early on. It's young women. Yeah, I just
really think it was both. I really think that Rachel
and Nef are both users. I mean, Nef is busy
taking hundred dollar bills to finance her film. I want
to wear and look like Annah Delvey because I want
to be taken seriously. And I mean I've had really
also very very very loaded friends before, and money just
(22:38):
means a different thing to them, especially in Hollywood. Two,
when people aren't wearying stages of success. Yeah, we're like,
let me just get them for you, and I'm like no, no, no, no, no,
like please don't and they're like it please. It's like
nothing for me, and you're like, oh, right, like we forget,
we forget. So I think it's both. I think Rachel
was swept up. I think Anna Delvey probably insisted and
(23:00):
then it just became routine. And then I think, yeah,
I think Rachel wanted to be here. Also, it was
open to the generosity. I mean, who would say no
to that? On Rachel says that on the stand her
she says on the stand like and did you ever
offer to pay? And she says she would never let me?
I mean I believe that when she says that, like,
(23:21):
I don't see it, and I tried really and I
didn't play it as that Rachel just took and took
and took and took and took. But when Nef says
that to Vivian, it made me think, oh, that's an
interesting perspective. Of course, you could absolutely see it that
way too. That's what's so cool about the show, and
what's so classic to the Shonda land sauce is that
there's no good, bad, right wrong. There's a lot of gray.
(23:44):
You can think someone's good one episode and bad the next. Right.
So when she gets home from Morocco and she has
that horrible three month wait and the ensuing meltdown takes place.
It was very hard to watch those scenes where she's
at work. Are you firing me? If an investigation finds
(24:04):
that you were in on it, we'll be calling in
the police. Wait, I didn't take any of it. Stay
at the hotel, didn't You Can't you understand what I've
gone through. You helped your friend defraud this company, your
neck deep in this, Rachel. Have you ever felt that
kind of professional panic in real life where something was
(24:27):
out of your control but you knew that there was
so much on the line for your own future. Yeah,
I was audited like two years in Arrow. That's scary.
Oh my god. It was fucking terrifying. Like I was
a waiter making no money for a really long time,
and I booked one series that got canceled after seven episodes.
(24:47):
But those seven episodes, I made more money than I
had ever made, And so the government was like, what
the f So you were sort of flagged in a side.
I was flagged, and I filed incorrectly with a accountant
who doesn't specialize in the entertainment industry because I didn't
know that that existed. I didn't know what the hell
was going on, and I got audited two years in
(25:09):
a row. Every single time I got stacks in my
mailbox of paperwork thicker than you could ever imagine of
ship that I had to fill out and prove and
say that it wasn't lying and I was going to
owe forty dollars back, which I didn't have. I was hysterical.
I mean, could I have moved home with my parents?
(25:31):
I think Rachel could have done that too, but oh
my god, right, but here you are in the throes
of building your career, wanting to be and how embarrassing.
So anyway, I just think about that all the time,
and the feeling of dread I would feel because the
I R s when after me, Like it was really hard.
Two years in a row. It was super stressful, and
you'd have an okay week where you would feel fine,
and then all of a sudden, some ship would come
(25:51):
in the mail that would just rip the bottom out
from under you and have you in cot sweats, cold sweats,
panic attack, keeping you up all night long figuring out
what am I going to do when they say I
have to give them and I don't have it, and
I don't understand what I did wrong, and how I
could have prevented this when I'm a good person. It
looked you see this, I'm already like sounding deliberation, but
(26:13):
like that's where she's at. She's like, I don't understand.
My friend was in big, fat trouble. I was going
to get arrested. I gave my card. I did what
any sensible person would do. And also, have you ever
met a con artist? Not that I know of? Yeah,
me either, And she was up against someone who was good.
I can't. I kept reading in my researching. You know,
(26:35):
when someone cons you, it starts small and before you
know it, you've been wrapped up. And that's sort of
I feel like, also what happened with Rachel and Anna.
But it was like, first, can you just get the tickets?
I'm too busy today, And she gets the tickets and
then she's like, oh, ship, I don't have it for
the gardens. Can you do the gardens? And then can
you just do this dinner? And all of a sudden
(26:58):
it's too late for on. Leading up to this, all
she has seen is being taken care of financially by
this person. Hundred dollar bill over hundred dollar bill, undo.
At the hotel, living in a hotel anyway, It's interesting.
We're used to hearing this type of story as it
relates to a romantic relationship, you know, you've heard of
(27:18):
men and women, you know, So, oh, I was conned
by this person. I thought I was marrying. And I
have heard that a bunch before, and I think we
just aren't used to seeing it in the context of
a friendship. And I think that's what's harder to parse,
because there isn't sex involved, there isn't romance. You would think, well,
why couldn't you just see the light, and and you
see how intrenched she was, and it's you just feel
so badly for her, and she's still in trench. You know.
(27:39):
Julia and I talked a lot about there's the scene
in Morocco where I'm packing my stuff and leaving and
she's really drunk. We played that as our breakup scene.
Oh interesting, and that came across actually, and I really
want to celebrate with you, but I'm not feeling, well, hey,
I might have caught like what we're Casey had because
(27:59):
they had such poisoning. If you had what she had,
you would have felt it. Yeah, Um, I don't know.
Maybe it actually was a stomach book. Rachel, don't go.
(28:24):
I'm sorry, I have to again. I do think the
lines are blurred. When you're a best friend with someone
who's like a new best friend, you're obsessed with them
like you are someone who you're romantically involved with. Your
thinking about what should I wear in front of them,
(28:45):
and like, oh my god, do I text them that?
Like does that sound stupid? Is that funny? Um? Can
I wear what they're wearing? We were really lucky the
minute we met Julia and I really like girl eed
out from the second we met at table reads like
I want to be just like obsessed with her as
(29:05):
my friend because I feel like that'll be really good
for Rachel and Anna. We were just like really touchy,
always holding hands, always like getting really into those Instagram
photo shoots which were used in the show, and you know,
kissy kissy faces and like all that stuff, but having
the best time. Amidst all the drama. You do seem
to be having fun, which is kind of the whole
(29:25):
point of all this. Right, Yes, okay, if your one,
it's about that time. Just a quick message from our sponsors, Hey, there,
(29:52):
thanks for sticking around. So I want to talk about
episodes seven, the infamous intervention moment. Casey is so careful
not wanting to step in this. She's finally seeing like,
you don't really want to be involved in this, but
she feels for Rachel, and she tells Rachel step into
(30:13):
your power to take control. Stop being afraid. And it's
so hurtful in that scene where Anna essentially diminishes Rachel
so intensely, saying, you just crave this drama. I'm a boss,
I'm trying to build a foundation, and I'm surrounded by
a bunch of alas you know, I am begging. I'm
joining everything I can do. You You think I have time
(30:36):
to waste with this? Your money is coming Just listen
for me. That was one of the most hurtful scenes
in the show because in a split second she diminishes
everything that they ever had as friends. How did that
scene play to you and how much hurt did you
infuse into that moment? That was one of the first
scenes we ever shot. Oh really to start there too
(30:57):
at this arc that has just come before that one.
I know that's TV making. It's so hard. It's really
hard at times, you know that to me is the
scene where Rachel catches the whiff that she is a sociopath.
She's so cold, so so cold. Julia does a beautiful
(31:17):
job of playing someone who does not feel or understand empathy.
I do think, like my personal opinions, I think it
could have gone the other way really easily. I think
she could have gotten Alane. I think she could have
started a d F, and a d F might and
may have been extremely successful. So she was held back
by her own personality flaws. I think she was held
(31:38):
back by society really and maybe personality flaws. But I
do think that she's The performance in that scene is
when you see a friend that's crying and you feel nothing.
It's where everything from Rachel changes into I'm on a mission.
(31:59):
And from that scene is when she goes to her
apartment and she starts planning to my face while I
was crying, she said, I crave drama like our friendship
meant nothing, Like what she's putting me through meant nothing.
(32:20):
If she wants a drama, she's going to get it,
So walk me. From that point to when we see
Rachel officially stepping into her power and helping the police
and helping to facilitate Anna's capture because while we understand
Rachel's motivation because any of us would be livid and
so hurt, it's still surprising because of their history walk
(32:43):
me through your journey and preparing for that. I think
she realizes in that intervention scene that she's not dealing
with a sympathetic human being. I think she learns, like
she says, like, what would Anna do in this situation?
She would be selfish, She would figure out how to
get herself out of this mess. And Rachel was in
a big fat mess and really thought about how do
(33:05):
I get myself out of this? And I think she
does a lot of growing up in the series. And
I think she does a lot of growing up from
that moment all the way through when you realize she
has sold the story herself to three different buyers, when
she decides to get up on the stand, all of
that is her making a decision and going for what
(33:29):
she wants. What's interesting Anna. While Anna hurt her in
immense ways, Anna could be the largest figure in Rachel's
life because she taught her this is how the world works. Right.
You can't stay at a job for thirty two grand
a year and expect people to be thinking about your
next move, you have to constantly be thinking for yourself.
So it's that balance of looking out for yourself but
(33:49):
also not being a sociopath along the way, right, I
think Rachel was completely completely formed by this experience, without
a doubt, and for better or worse, I imagine both.
So going to the trial, which is obviously such an
incredible piece of the saga for the jurors, what do
you think was the hardest part of their jobs in
(34:12):
parsing out what was guilty and what was non guilty
not guilty? I know, because they let the Rachel the
Rachel case, she was found not guilty, correct, which you
know we could we talked about sort of karma, friendship karma.
The Anna character probably felt a little bit vindicated in that,
and I think the jury swung the other way the
minute they found out that Rachel had six hundred thousand
(34:34):
dollars and was going to be okay. I think if
that had never come up, they would have found her guilty.
I don't want my testimony to be misconstrued or seen
as a ploy for my own benefit, because it's not.
It's not about entertainment, it's about law and order. And
a cry for you. It is about entertainment though, right,
this is about a trauma. This is about the judicial
system in America warning others. So this is not about entertainment.
(34:59):
This is the most trauma the thing that I have
ever been through. I understand all that, but this traumatic
experience that you went through, you sold the three separate people.
What would you have thought if you were on that jury.
What would have been the hardest part of your of
your job, as I would have been terrified of an
Adelbe despite her trial style and how she would have
(35:21):
been terrified. Um, I think it would have been really
I can't even imagine the conversations in that room, just
so complicated, and also the split among gender age. Yes,
I mean, it's just that's why the story is so
good and people are so excited to see it. It's
so complicated. I can remember getting up on the stand
(35:45):
and sort of crying, and Matt Byrne, the writer who
wrote that episode nine and and he came up to
me because he was actually there when it happened, right,
he'd been in the courtroom. He had been in the courtroom,
and he said to me, no, Katie, she's like ugly
crying in front of everybody. Rachel was Yeah, he was like,
(36:06):
like the kind of crying that you would never show anyone.
They had to stop the proceedings because she was so emotional,
and I was like, oh no, you're like, oh, we're
going there now. Those days were just spent the most
breakdowns in the history of the planet. My eyes just
(36:29):
swollen shut, Like, how did it feel to hear that
from Matt Because for so long you'd probably tried to
separate yourself from the real person, from the real events,
and here you were sitting almost in the exact sort
of scenario, having the same emotional output. That must have
been another one of those Moroccan moments where you thought
this really happened to somebody. Yeah, it just changed the
(36:50):
I mean, it definitely changed the performance, But it also
changed for me how she was so desperate and scared
all along, and there room is like all of the
PTSD and the months and months of not sleeping, and
the months and months of questioning your own sanity and
your own worth and everyone finding this out about you
(37:12):
that you had been conned and having to now put
it on display. I mean, it was horrible, horrible, as
much as it was. She wanted it to be her
powerful moment. I really think it ended up being a mess.
It wasn't the way she probably would have wanted to
end this whole ordeal. She could not put a bow
on it to move on. Even though she had written
(37:32):
her piece, she had a book deal, the mess was
still there. And I think at the center of that
is the embarrassment of having been taken by this person.
And Norah speaks to that earlier in the series when
Vivian asked her, why didn't you report this? Why didn't
you report that Anna stall these you know, ran up
the credit card. It was humiliating. She took advantage of
(37:54):
me and I had no idea. So this idea that
someone could be so egregiously manipulated, you really see that
as like a through line of trauma among these characters.
It's it's so embarrassing. Yeah, So before we wrap, I
did want to give you a shout out for not
only making the show during COVID post production, all the
incredible work that went into the series, but you also
(38:16):
had a second child. Can you be so tell me
a little bit about how you were able to do this.
This is so funny, This is why I was thinking
about the courtroom scenes in episode nine because maybe this
is t m I, but I don't care, Katie. Your
whole brand is TAMA good good, good good. Well you're right.
The whole week we were in the courtroom was the
(38:38):
week of shutdown, So this is like March nine, and
I was trying to have a baby that same week. Wow,
I'll never forget it, because times were scary, you know,
like we were losing extras every day to some sort
of symptoms and not knowing what COVID was, and all
of a sudden, people were running around the set like
(38:59):
sanitize all the door knobs, and the food shifted from
being sort of like a buffet style to all individually wrapped,
I mean, things that we are now getting used to.
But and we shut down March thirteenth, and I ran
home to l A March thirteenth at eight am because
I was getting these weird tech saying New York's going
(39:19):
to shut down. There's not gonna be any way in
or any way out. And we went back to l A.
And one week later, March eighteenth, I was like, I
think I'm pregnant. Wow, I was pregnant and right after
telling my husband, I called Shonda because I thought we
were going back to work in like two weeks, and
I said, um, I'm pregnant. I'm terrified, to which she
(39:46):
was the best friend a girl could ask. Horton was like,
I'm already talking to medical staff. You're gonna be fine.
After she said congratulations and flipped out. Of course, it's
certainly excited and supportive, but she was very, very caring
in to make sure that she real thought I was
gonna be okay, and she was right. I was, thank god.
But also I spent my whole pregnancy basically quarantined up
(40:08):
with the show not going back, and then the show
went back in the September after shut down, and I
was do with my baby in November. And this is
why Shawna Land Shawnda Land and why she's the best.
But she was like, We're just going to take all
of your leftover Rachel scenes, which was a lot. I
thought it wasn't it was. It was all of five
(40:30):
everything that's the friends and the parties and the I
had to do all of episode five and then some
other little things here and there. Five six days of work,
which is not a little she said, I'm going to
put them all. At the last five or six days
of the entire shoots, I had my baby had a
four month maternity leave. I was so freaking taken care of.
(40:54):
But I also was kind of concerned because I was like, Ship,
we're going to cut this all together, and I've worked
so hard on this part and I literally am like
twenty pounds different. And not that I give a shit
about being twenty pounds different, but more for the consistency,
more for the character. I just never wanted my work
that the audience would be more concerned, like, wow, she
looks nothing like the scene that we just saw because
(41:16):
they were going to be strung together. And I was like, shit,
it's not like one episode I shot pre pregnancy and
one postpregnan scenes Like I'm literally doing scenes back to
back where I am different. Thank God it was Lynn
Paulo because she had been through my first pregnancy before
on Scandal. She knows my body better than I do.
And I have to say this, the power of women
helping women in those situations bumps about it. Not that
(41:36):
men aren't helpful, but just the fact that there's a
shorthand there. It was really, really, really magical, and I'm
so relieved honestly watching it back, like I like, fucking great.
I was thrilled. I mean there was only one scene
out of all the scenes where I was like, whoa,
then be some breastfeed and boobs. The rest of it,
I was like, ship, I can't really tell. It's why
(42:00):
you're so happy when she calls and you're like, I'll
play anything. I mean, not only because creatively you know
it's going to be amazing, but you're just so respected
as a person. Well, there's a lot to like in
the show, and I want to congratulate you on your
amazing work. Thanks Stacy, and really every person we're speaking
to for this podcast. It's just a miracle to get
anything made, especially the last two years, and the show
(42:22):
really is an accomplishment. So be very proud. Thank you, Stacy,
Thank you so much for listening, everybody, and come back
next week for the final episode of our series with
Anna's real life attorney, Todd Spodeck. If you are the
type of woman that it's coming to my office in
(42:43):
a Saturday and you want me to believe you're a
German heiress, I like that you kind of crazy, and
I like crazy. We'll also discuss how Anna's Trial was
adapted for television with writer Matt Burne. My first impressions
were that Todd was completely like competent to be Frank
really okay. I just didn't know this character well enough.
(43:04):
It just felt completely insane to me. If you're enjoying
this show, please subscribe, share with your friends, rate, or
leave us a review. All of that good stuff. And
if you haven't finished Shonda Lands Inventing Anna on Netflix,
please go do that. We really don't want to spoil
it for you. Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is executive
(43:26):
produced by Sandy Bailey, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Clang, and Gabrielle Collins.
Our producer and editor is Nicholas Harder, and the show
is produced and hosted by me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing
(43:50):
Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shonda land
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts
from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shonda
Land Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to
Inventing Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the
making of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your
host Stacy Wilson Hunt, and today I'm chatting with actor
(00:21):
Katie Lows, who plays Rachel Williams in the series. Katie
is not only a Shonda Land regular, having played Quinn
Perkins for seven seasons on Scandal, she also has her
own Shonda Land podcast, Katie's Crib. Katie has endless juicy
stories about making Inventing Anna, including shooting the show while
she was pregnant, coping with the pandemic, and traveling to
(00:41):
Morocco to film the now infamous credit card fiasco episode.
Welcome Katie, How are you today? Hi? I'm really good.
Thanks for having me, Stacy and Top. My question I
had for you was to me, this is the sort
(01:03):
of consummate New York story. You're a native New Yorker.
How much of the show spoke to you as being
that sort of only in New York kind of saga. Absolutely,
it's such a New York story. I was actually thrilled
when I found out New York is one of those
places where you fake it till you make it. And
I went to college in New York and I can
(01:24):
remember the first parties I ever slipped through the back
door to get into, you know, through like, oh, there's
this girl on our in our dorm who's a model
and dating this like five year old rich guy. Of
course you can go with her, But like really seeing
New York money, old money that like East Coast you
(01:45):
are a trust fund baby, or you've inherited lots and
you're not welcome at the club unless you have all
of that at your disposal, and just feeling like such
an outsider and feeling those vibes that are so part
of the Antadelvie world and so part of the ant
LB story. Um, it's definitely not the New York that
I know when my mother t walks like this and
I'm from Staten Island. That's the other key to this
(02:07):
is like shooting in New York, all of the transpo
guys and grips were from Ozone Park, Queens, which is
where I grew up, and they would talk to me
and like drop me off on set and I'm like
I cannot be talking like this, I said, not how
Rachel Deloch Williams talks. That is true. You were straddling
two worlds, is what you're saying exactly. And speaking, of
course of New York and journalism, the show would not
(02:29):
exist without Jessica Prestler's incredible reporting on Anna Delvi, which
was first published in May of How familiar were you
with that article when it came out in New York
Magazine and the cut? I was not aware of the
article I was in. I was aware of the story
after the fact. Again, I think as a native New Yorker,
there was this sort of folklore legend story that kind
(02:52):
of reached all of us about this chick who told
everyone that she, you know, was a German heiress and
conned people out of hundreds of thousands of dollars, like
huge real estate people in New York and private planes
and she's going to jail. And I remember all the
mumblings of that from friends of mine that still live
in New York. And then it wasn't until I was
at a scandal table read and it became public knowledge,
(03:15):
either on Deadline or something, that Shawna was making the
move from ABC to Netflix, and then it came out
shortly after that. The first story was this article, and
I remember racing home looking it up and being like,
please God, is there a part for me in this world?
Because if I could be a waitress or a babysitter
(03:38):
or like whatever, if she'll give me a part, I
would like to play in it. And I remember getting
home and reading the article and be like, oh my god,
there will be women in this world that I could
maybe play. So that was really my first intro to
the Jeff Pressler article, completely selfish. Well come on, you're
an actor. Basically, I first inter was is there a
(04:01):
part for me? Hey? You know what, that's just the
Anna Delvie hustle that you have going on there. Come on,
that's it. So of course fans know you from all
your incredible work Private Practice, Gray's Anatomy, and of course Scandal,
which you just mentioned. You're part of the Shawn A
Lane family, but you still have to kind of go
through a process to get cast. Shawn does not just
texting you saying, hey, are you free on this day
(04:22):
to start shooting? So tell me a little bit about
getting in the door to play Rachel for inventing Anna.
So I got private practice and that was my first
introduction into the Shonda land world. And Linda Lowe, who
cast at the time all of Shanda's shows, was married
to Jeff Perry. Jeff Perry was my acting teacher at
steppen Wolf. So Linda had been watching me, and so
wonderfully had constantly been calling me into Shanda, and I
(04:46):
knew that at some point maybe something would line up
that would be a good fit. And the year before Scandal,
Shawanda had a show called Off the Map. I remember,
essentially a Gray's Anatomy Doctors without Borders sort of show,
and I went in for every single female doctor. There
are a lot of female doctors on that show. It
(05:07):
was a week where I came in for Shaunda and
I nailed it, and they said, yeah, but can you
come in tomorrow and read this doctor? And I ran
home and I rememorized all those lines and I came in,
didn't get that one, and then the next day they
asked me to for the next one, and I was like, wow,
I feel connected to her, like she's trying to find
what might be a fit. Turns out it was none
of those I got fired from that babysitting job because
(05:30):
I kept just not showing up to run back to
these callbacks. I was broke. And the next year's Scandal
was my first audition back and I remember reading the
sides and it was Quinn Perkins and my middle name
is Quinn, and I was like, it's a side that
is meant to be. And I went an audition for
Shonda again. The next week. They called me back in
and I thought it was a call back, and she said,
(05:52):
I've already shown your first audition tape to the studio
network and they've approved you and I'm giving you the job.
And I sobbed and thanked her and asked everyone if
I could hug them, and it changed my life and
for inventing Anna. When Scandal was ending and I had
ran home to read the j pressl article and I
(06:12):
thought there might be something for me, I just had
a really honest conversation because other people were sort of
sniffing around that I was available. That's a good feeling, though,
that people were sniffing around. People sniffing. I mean, it
doesn't mean anything until there's anything signed on the dotted line.
But some people were sniffing around, and I remember I
don't know if I called Shawonda or I texted her,
(06:34):
and I just said, hey, like, people are sniffing around,
but I want to be with you till the end
of time, shamelessly like is there anything for me in
the show? And she was like, I really think there is.
And I was like, oh my gosh, call off the hounds.
The sniffing ends here. I'm just gonna sit around and
see because I've had the pleasure of working in Shawna
(06:55):
Land for eight years and I am not curious about
anywhere else. So it's a magical place where dreams come true. Right,
Why would you go anywhere else? That's right? And so
she called me months later and said, you're going to
play Rachel. Literally, I did not audition. She said you're
gonna play Rachel. And you know what's weird, I kind
of knew. I just felt like, of all the characters
(07:19):
in the world, that Rachel could be a fit. And
so when she called and told me, it was sort
of like the puzzle piece fitting together. And of course
I was like very emotional again, just feeling very honored
and grateful and shocked that she continuously employs me, Well,
(07:41):
you are very talented, Katie. This isn't just a fluke. Yes,
thank you. But you know, I have a lot of
talented friends. You know. I run a theater company in
l A called I Am a theater company that Shanda
comes to all of our shows, and I have a
lot of, you know, wonderful actors. And I do think
also that Shanda and I just sort of line up.
I don't know if it's the way her dialogue is,
(08:01):
in the way that I speak. There is this sort
of Shanda speak and Shanda dialogue that for whatever reason
just makes a lot of sense in my brain and
in my heart and comes out like I can memorize
her words in like one second. Well there's a real
rhythm to it. It's like such a fit for me.
You know what's cool about Shanda and her being such
(08:21):
a theater fan. I think that she likes to collect
like the ensemble vibe. So it's not coincidence to me
that Jeff Perry she keeps around, or Kate Burton, Paul Adelstein,
like there are actors who are very theatery actors. She
carries us around two shows because I think, not only
(08:43):
I think, do we deliver and we bring good vibes.
But like we bring good vibes to the table reads,
we bring the Shonda land sauce to the set, to
the crew. You know, in England they let actors play
different parts all the time. That's what they like to see.
But for some reason here other than her and like
Ryan Murphy, a lot of people don't like to carry
around actors. And I'm so relieved that when she globs
(09:06):
onto someone or thinks that they're good and wants to
keep him around, she does. She's a good friend to have. Yeah,
So I want to talk about your creation of Rachel, who,
of course is based on a real person, and yet
you still have the task of creating something new for
the screen. So tell me, when you you find out
day one you're playing this person, what was the first
(09:27):
thing you did? What did you read? Did you have
access to the role Rachel Williams. Yes, So I have
never played a real person before, and I definitely have
not played a real living person before. It's an added pressure,
isn't it. Yeah, it definitely feels like an added pressure.
That's perfect way to phrase it. But at the same
time I felt like I wasn't playing Jackie. Oh well,
(09:49):
she's not a public figure in the same sense, she's
not a person that anyone knows. And I purposefully chose
not to read her book. I didn't have the opportunit
you need to meet her, and frankly really didn't want
to because again, and yes, I did a little bit
of digging, don't get me wrong, Like it's very easy
in today's day and age to go on Rachel's Instagram feed,
(10:10):
and at the time, she was doing a lot of
publicity for her books, and she does have a public
profile that she's creaty. She has a public profile, which
again I looked at those things of maybe something that
could inspire a jumping off point, but then I really
started to just let it go and I really based
her on a friend of mine that will remain nameless. Yes,
(10:34):
when I read a Shonda script, it became far more
my responsibility to help tell the story Shonda was writing.
Of course, it's what's on the page that's guiding exactly,
and so for me it was more important that Rachel
be the vehicle in which that episode six and seven,
(10:54):
where the stakes are like no other, where the whole
table shifts and you've now conned a relatable, regular person.
So for me, it was far more all about the
stakes of the situation that this girl found herself in,
rather than me trying to mimic or do impressions of
(11:17):
the real Rachel Deloche Williams. And what helped with that
so much was actually shooting in Morocco. It wasn't until
I really got to go there and I saw the
hotel and the amount of money and I started to
feel more real to you. Yeah, and the actors were
saying to me, we're going to call the cops, where
(11:38):
I was like, holy shit, that's she's afraid, man. Like
it says that she's crying in every scene, but she's
absolutely terrified. I mean, you hear those stories as a
girl of being locked up abroad. I mean, isn't that
like a reality show or whatever? Like that ship is
scary as hell, like you know. And then for a
(12:00):
girl who makes thirty one tho dollars a year at
her dream job at Vanity Fair to be in debt
up to sixty dollars for months and months and months
at a time where your apartment is going to be threatened,
your job, and also the embarrassment, Okay, keep a firm,
(12:24):
grip on your credit cards will be right back. Welcome
back everyone to Inventing Anna the official podcast. What do
(12:50):
you think initially attracted Rachel to Anna outside of the
access that she could provide, Like you talked about your
own experiences getting through the back door of clubs and
getting the nice table at the restaurant. Was there more
to it than that, because it seems like she's a
good friend and they actually cared about each other. I
think it was a lot of things. I have this
line where Rachel's on the stand and she says she
(13:11):
was interesting. Her feed was interesting to me. Yes, what
was interesting about her or her social media feeds? Photos
of art, travel, the editor in chief? I guess at
Purple magazine, so similar careers attracted you, both working in
fashion magazines, and I maybe had a leg up. Yes,
the a DF was going to be like an artful
(13:32):
Soho house with like amazing stuff on the walls and things.
And Rachel loves art. She loves photography. It's why she
worked at Vanity Fair. Julia Garner and I always talked
about this. If she had gotten the loan for a DF,
her right hand would have been Rachel. Oh really, that's interesting.
Rachel would have been running. I have goose bumps right now.
That's how I know it's it's true in an alternate
(13:54):
reality because Anna was the dreamer and this sort of
like law the big ideas and making these big asks happen.
But I think Rachel's a work worse. It was like
Steve Jobs to Bosnia. Yeah, she's like your go to gal.
Like I think she would have been the person with
the clipboard at a d F, and I think that
that might have excited her, Like, I think that they
(14:15):
could have come up together in a way. It's interesting
and it made me think of something. When you moved
to New York. Whatever industry you're trying to break into,
there's so much of a veneer of pain dues. Right,
And you think I'm a young woman, I don't deserve
these jobs. I have to work for ten years before
I can't even be considered for that elevated position. Right.
And what Anna does is she comes in and says,
(14:36):
that's all fake. I can be considered right now, exactly.
I'm talented. Now, I have great ideas. Now I don't
want to wait. And so I think what you're speaking
to is Rachel has those same ambitions, but she's kind
of tucked into the confines of that, you know, the
Conde Nast structure. She's a rule follower, like she would
have slowly built up anything just through like hard work
(14:58):
and being like as nice person, you know, and like
playing the game correctly right, and and really I've known
people in those photo editor jobs that's do you have
to stay in a gig like that for five years
before you get promoted minimum one hundred percent. So it's
interesting to think it's more than this just this party
girl sort of accessory that she offered her. They really
(15:18):
were empowering each other. I think it was both. Yeah,
I really do. I think that they would have could
have come up together and sort of taken over New
York a little bit. Like I think they could have
been a powerful little team, especially with Nef good God, absolutely,
I mean, Nef and Rachel could just get along. But
(15:39):
and I do want to talk about but let's go
back to Morocco for a moment, because it really is
where for me the series shifts, as you said, into
something very scary for Rachel. We see Anna kind of
bilking these higher ups, these rich people along the way
and Nora and her caftans, and yeah, it feels very
Robin Hoodie at that point. We don't feel bad for
those very wealthy people, but Rachel's characters when we start
(16:01):
to personalize it. So tell me a little bit more
about shooting in Morocco. How long were you there, because
it is so stunning that I can't even believe you
had access to these places. It's just gorgeous. It was
the absolute coolest thing ever because I got to take
Adam and my son, Yes Adam is my husband, and
my son Albi, and it was the last time we
(16:23):
traveled abroad before the pandemic. You know. We landed back
in the States in the middle of February. There were
just starting to be commercials in Morocco of this thing
called coronavirus. So that just seems insane, but it was
so helpful for building the character. I mean, so Lawmmmonia,
which is the hotel that real Anastorkin and real Rachel
(16:46):
Delochi Williams stayed, where she was conned, where they stayed
in like a ten dollar a night Riod. We shot
in the Riod where this all went down, and you
step into Lama Munia and even the scent. They have
a pumped through the walls candles incense that is just
(17:08):
smells like amazing. You are somewhere other than America. Rich
Ammonia was gifted to Prince Almmon by his father in
the eighteenth century as a wedding present. Framed by the
address Montings to the north end the mosquit the east
our gardens state back to the twelfth century. It's one
(17:31):
of those places where you get served upon entrance the
most delicious almond milk moroccan tea thing, and everyone's in
these incredible outfits. I was literally staying in a room
where the guest book previous to my stay was Paul McCartney,
Hillary Clinton, Bradley Cooper. On the toilet I was using.
(17:55):
I kept saying that Adam like we are going to
the bathroom him with Bradley Cooper or like with Hilary
and Bill. I mean, it was insane and it just
really helped the like, Wow, this is where Anna called.
Rachel was like, you want to get away for the weekend.
It's on me. I would imagine as an actor too,
(18:17):
even though you're obviously incredibly prepared and do all your
due diligence the sensory experience of being smelling the air,
feeling the heat, feeling the drapey clothing, and they did
a great job. What's so cool about the episode and
what's so special about it. It's such a bottle episode
in a way, and it's its own world and its
own rules. But what's the coolest thing is that was
(18:38):
directed by this incredible director who had worked with on Scandal.
Her name is in Zinga Stewart. She's incredible. Her husband
is Moroccan, she got married in Morocco. Her husband was
with us when we shot, and so her eye to
me how she shot the episode where you see the
(18:58):
carriages next to your car ours and all the carts
and the medina and all of that stuff, I think
she captured it. So I mean, when I watched it,
I was emotional because again I haven't been out of
the country since then, and just to see another culture
so clearly and vividly. I just think the episode and
(19:18):
Netflix didn't spare any expense to make the viewers understand
what Marrakech is like, because it does help with the story.
It's because they're in Morocco and because of all that,
this all plays out the way it does. It was amazing.
We were there for three to four weeks. Wow, that's
(19:39):
a long time. What did you guys do in your
free time? If you did happening, did you go to
the gardens that we hear about the gardens? Well, no,
I didn't go because I was like, that ship costs
like two thousand dollars a ticket or whatever, which is true.
We all learned our lesson about going to those gardens.
Lessons about that um on my days off. Lynn Paulo,
who was our wardrobe and was the costume designer on
(20:01):
Scandal the whole time, did all the clothes for this
and so she was in Morocco with us and just
like running around with her. Which rugs should we get? Which?
Amazing hom says, Oh, I took a cooking class, cuscus
into jeans, and my husband was living his best effing life.
All the boys were. It was so unfair. This is
(20:22):
behind the scenes, goss. But like I'm working all day,
Julia Garner is working all day, and in Zinga, the
director is working all day. But in Zinga's husband who's Moroccan,
is there as sort of like a fun chaperone. Mark Foster,
who's Julia Garner's husband is there, and then my husband
Adam shapiros there, so they're like a trio and they
did a t V rides in the desert. They were
(20:45):
like cooking meat underneath like caravans and under the sun
like every day we were getting The girls were like
hard at work and the men are just like out
living their best lives. So we really, I think, seized
the opportunity. But it does come through. I think we're
so used to seeing locations fudge for other places, but
(21:07):
I have to say, it really does feel like you
were there, because of course now we know that you were,
so I want to go back to the Morocco trip
and the fallout. Of course the credit card call out
in a moment, but I do want to talk. You
mentioned Nef. It was obviously so crucial to this puzzle
and to the story at large, and in rewatching the series.
In episode five, when Nef is talking to Vivian about Rachel,
(21:31):
Rachel took into I can it took. I haven't paid
Anna back. Everything she wore was Anna's. I think she
was trying to be Anna. Anna put up with that.
I don't even know that she noticed. She liked it.
I mean, it's interesting, and in that moment, I wondered,
is Rachel a user herself or was she just allowing
(21:51):
herself to be kind of swept up into this Anna orbit?
What do you think? I think it's both. I think
we've all done that. I have girlfriends now that when
I see them and I love them so much, like
and they wear something and then the next day it
reminds me to wear something that's the same because it
looks so good on them. I mean, I do ship
like that all the time. We get imprinted with this
(22:14):
stuff very early on. It's young women. Yeah, I just
really think it was both. I really think that Rachel
and Nef are both users. I mean, Nef is busy
taking hundred dollar bills to finance her film. I want
to wear and look like Annah Delvey because I want
to be taken seriously. And I mean I've had really
also very very very loaded friends before, and money just
(22:38):
means a different thing to them, especially in Hollywood. Two,
when people aren't wearying stages of success. Yeah, we're like,
let me just get them for you, and I'm like no, no, no, no, no,
like please don't and they're like it please. It's like
nothing for me, and you're like, oh, right, like we forget,
we forget. So I think it's both. I think Rachel
was swept up. I think Anna Delvey probably insisted and
(23:00):
then it just became routine. And then I think, yeah,
I think Rachel wanted to be here. Also, it was
open to the generosity. I mean, who would say no
to that? On Rachel says that on the stand her
she says on the stand like and did you ever
offer to pay? And she says she would never let me?
I mean I believe that when she says that, like,
(23:21):
I don't see it, and I tried really and I
didn't play it as that Rachel just took and took
and took and took and took. But when Nef says
that to Vivian, it made me think, oh, that's an
interesting perspective. Of course, you could absolutely see it that
way too. That's what's so cool about the show, and
what's so classic to the Shonda land sauce is that
there's no good, bad, right wrong. There's a lot of gray.
(23:44):
You can think someone's good one episode and bad the next. Right.
So when she gets home from Morocco and she has
that horrible three month wait and the ensuing meltdown takes place.
It was very hard to watch those scenes where she's
at work. Are you firing me? If an investigation finds
(24:04):
that you were in on it, we'll be calling in
the police. Wait, I didn't take any of it. Stay
at the hotel, didn't You Can't you understand what I've
gone through. You helped your friend defraud this company, your
neck deep in this, Rachel. Have you ever felt that
kind of professional panic in real life where something was
(24:27):
out of your control but you knew that there was
so much on the line for your own future. Yeah,
I was audited like two years in Arrow. That's scary.
Oh my god. It was fucking terrifying. Like I was
a waiter making no money for a really long time,
and I booked one series that got canceled after seven episodes.
(24:47):
But those seven episodes, I made more money than I
had ever made, And so the government was like, what
the f So you were sort of flagged in a side.
I was flagged, and I filed incorrectly with a accountant
who doesn't specialize in the entertainment industry because I didn't
know that that existed. I didn't know what the hell
was going on, and I got audited two years in
(25:09):
a row. Every single time I got stacks in my
mailbox of paperwork thicker than you could ever imagine of
ship that I had to fill out and prove and
say that it wasn't lying and I was going to
owe forty dollars back, which I didn't have. I was hysterical.
I mean, could I have moved home with my parents?
(25:31):
I think Rachel could have done that too, but oh
my god, right, but here you are in the throes
of building your career, wanting to be and how embarrassing.
So anyway, I just think about that all the time,
and the feeling of dread I would feel because the
I R s when after me, Like it was really hard.
Two years in a row. It was super stressful, and
you'd have an okay week where you would feel fine,
and then all of a sudden, some ship would come
(25:51):
in the mail that would just rip the bottom out
from under you and have you in cot sweats, cold sweats,
panic attack, keeping you up all night long figuring out
what am I going to do when they say I
have to give them and I don't have it, and
I don't understand what I did wrong, and how I
could have prevented this when I'm a good person. It
looked you see this, I'm already like sounding deliberation, but
(26:13):
like that's where she's at. She's like, I don't understand.
My friend was in big, fat trouble. I was going
to get arrested. I gave my card. I did what
any sensible person would do. And also, have you ever
met a con artist? Not that I know of? Yeah,
me either, And she was up against someone who was good.
I can't. I kept reading in my researching. You know,
(26:35):
when someone cons you, it starts small and before you
know it, you've been wrapped up. And that's sort of
I feel like, also what happened with Rachel and Anna.
But it was like, first, can you just get the tickets?
I'm too busy today, And she gets the tickets and
then she's like, oh, ship, I don't have it for
the gardens. Can you do the gardens? And then can
you just do this dinner? And all of a sudden
(26:58):
it's too late for on. Leading up to this, all
she has seen is being taken care of financially by
this person. Hundred dollar bill over hundred dollar bill, undo.
At the hotel, living in a hotel anyway, It's interesting.
We're used to hearing this type of story as it
relates to a romantic relationship, you know, you've heard of
(27:18):
men and women, you know, So, oh, I was conned
by this person. I thought I was marrying. And I
have heard that a bunch before, and I think we
just aren't used to seeing it in the context of
a friendship. And I think that's what's harder to parse,
because there isn't sex involved, there isn't romance. You would think, well,
why couldn't you just see the light, and and you
see how intrenched she was, and it's you just feel
so badly for her, and she's still in trench. You know.
(27:39):
Julia and I talked a lot about there's the scene
in Morocco where I'm packing my stuff and leaving and
she's really drunk. We played that as our breakup scene.
Oh interesting, and that came across actually, and I really
want to celebrate with you, but I'm not feeling, well, hey,
I might have caught like what we're Casey had because
(27:59):
they had such poisoning. If you had what she had,
you would have felt it. Yeah, Um, I don't know.
Maybe it actually was a stomach book. Rachel, don't go.
(28:24):
I'm sorry, I have to again. I do think the
lines are blurred. When you're a best friend with someone
who's like a new best friend, you're obsessed with them
like you are someone who you're romantically involved with. Your
thinking about what should I wear in front of them,
(28:45):
and like, oh my god, do I text them that?
Like does that sound stupid? Is that funny? Um? Can
I wear what they're wearing? We were really lucky the
minute we met Julia and I really like girl eed
out from the second we met at table reads like
I want to be just like obsessed with her as
(29:05):
my friend because I feel like that'll be really good
for Rachel and Anna. We were just like really touchy,
always holding hands, always like getting really into those Instagram
photo shoots which were used in the show, and you know,
kissy kissy faces and like all that stuff, but having
the best time. Amidst all the drama. You do seem
to be having fun, which is kind of the whole
(29:25):
point of all this. Right, Yes, okay, if your one,
it's about that time. Just a quick message from our sponsors, Hey, there,
(29:52):
thanks for sticking around. So I want to talk about
episodes seven, the infamous intervention moment. Casey is so careful
not wanting to step in this. She's finally seeing like,
you don't really want to be involved in this, but
she feels for Rachel, and she tells Rachel step into
(30:13):
your power to take control. Stop being afraid. And it's
so hurtful in that scene where Anna essentially diminishes Rachel
so intensely, saying, you just crave this drama. I'm a boss,
I'm trying to build a foundation, and I'm surrounded by
a bunch of alas you know, I am begging. I'm
joining everything I can do. You You think I have time
(30:36):
to waste with this? Your money is coming Just listen
for me. That was one of the most hurtful scenes
in the show because in a split second she diminishes
everything that they ever had as friends. How did that
scene play to you and how much hurt did you
infuse into that moment? That was one of the first
scenes we ever shot. Oh really to start there too
(30:57):
at this arc that has just come before that one.
I know that's TV making. It's so hard. It's really
hard at times, you know that to me is the
scene where Rachel catches the whiff that she is a sociopath.
She's so cold, so so cold. Julia does a beautiful
(31:17):
job of playing someone who does not feel or understand empathy.
I do think, like my personal opinions, I think it
could have gone the other way really easily. I think
she could have gotten Alane. I think she could have
started a d F, and a d F might and
may have been extremely successful. So she was held back
by her own personality flaws. I think she was held
(31:38):
back by society really and maybe personality flaws. But I
do think that she's The performance in that scene is
when you see a friend that's crying and you feel nothing.
It's where everything from Rachel changes into I'm on a mission.
(31:59):
And from that scene is when she goes to her
apartment and she starts planning to my face while I
was crying, she said, I crave drama like our friendship
meant nothing, Like what she's putting me through meant nothing.
(32:20):
If she wants a drama, she's going to get it,
So walk me. From that point to when we see
Rachel officially stepping into her power and helping the police
and helping to facilitate Anna's capture because while we understand
Rachel's motivation because any of us would be livid and
so hurt, it's still surprising because of their history walk
(32:43):
me through your journey and preparing for that. I think
she realizes in that intervention scene that she's not dealing
with a sympathetic human being. I think she learns, like
she says, like, what would Anna do in this situation?
She would be selfish, She would figure out how to
get herself out of this mess. And Rachel was in
a big fat mess and really thought about how do
(33:05):
I get myself out of this? And I think she
does a lot of growing up in the series. And
I think she does a lot of growing up from
that moment all the way through when you realize she
has sold the story herself to three different buyers, when
she decides to get up on the stand, all of
that is her making a decision and going for what
(33:29):
she wants. What's interesting Anna. While Anna hurt her in
immense ways, Anna could be the largest figure in Rachel's
life because she taught her this is how the world works. Right.
You can't stay at a job for thirty two grand
a year and expect people to be thinking about your
next move, you have to constantly be thinking for yourself.
So it's that balance of looking out for yourself but
(33:49):
also not being a sociopath along the way, right, I
think Rachel was completely completely formed by this experience, without
a doubt, and for better or worse, I imagine both.
So going to the trial, which is obviously such an
incredible piece of the saga for the jurors, what do
you think was the hardest part of their jobs in
(34:12):
parsing out what was guilty and what was non guilty
not guilty? I know, because they let the Rachel the
Rachel case, she was found not guilty, correct, which you
know we could we talked about sort of karma, friendship karma.
The Anna character probably felt a little bit vindicated in that,
and I think the jury swung the other way the
minute they found out that Rachel had six hundred thousand
(34:34):
dollars and was going to be okay. I think if
that had never come up, they would have found her guilty.
I don't want my testimony to be misconstrued or seen
as a ploy for my own benefit, because it's not.
It's not about entertainment, it's about law and order. And
a cry for you. It is about entertainment though, right,
this is about a trauma. This is about the judicial
system in America warning others. So this is not about entertainment.
(34:59):
This is the most trauma the thing that I have
ever been through. I understand all that, but this traumatic
experience that you went through, you sold the three separate people.
What would you have thought if you were on that jury.
What would have been the hardest part of your of
your job, as I would have been terrified of an
Adelbe despite her trial style and how she would have
(35:21):
been terrified. Um, I think it would have been really
I can't even imagine the conversations in that room, just
so complicated, and also the split among gender age. Yes,
I mean, it's just that's why the story is so
good and people are so excited to see it. It's
so complicated. I can remember getting up on the stand
(35:45):
and sort of crying, and Matt Byrne, the writer who
wrote that episode nine and and he came up to
me because he was actually there when it happened, right,
he'd been in the courtroom. He had been in the courtroom,
and he said to me, no, Katie, she's like ugly
crying in front of everybody. Rachel was Yeah, he was like,
(36:06):
like the kind of crying that you would never show anyone.
They had to stop the proceedings because she was so emotional,
and I was like, oh no, you're like, oh, we're
going there now. Those days were just spent the most
breakdowns in the history of the planet. My eyes just
(36:29):
swollen shut, Like, how did it feel to hear that
from Matt Because for so long you'd probably tried to
separate yourself from the real person, from the real events,
and here you were sitting almost in the exact sort
of scenario, having the same emotional output. That must have
been another one of those Moroccan moments where you thought
this really happened to somebody. Yeah, it just changed the
(36:50):
I mean, it definitely changed the performance, But it also
changed for me how she was so desperate and scared
all along, and there room is like all of the
PTSD and the months and months of not sleeping, and
the months and months of questioning your own sanity and
your own worth and everyone finding this out about you
(37:12):
that you had been conned and having to now put
it on display. I mean, it was horrible, horrible, as
much as it was. She wanted it to be her
powerful moment. I really think it ended up being a mess.
It wasn't the way she probably would have wanted to
end this whole ordeal. She could not put a bow
on it to move on. Even though she had written
(37:32):
her piece, she had a book deal, the mess was
still there. And I think at the center of that
is the embarrassment of having been taken by this person.
And Norah speaks to that earlier in the series when
Vivian asked her, why didn't you report this? Why didn't
you report that Anna stall these you know, ran up
the credit card. It was humiliating. She took advantage of
(37:54):
me and I had no idea. So this idea that
someone could be so egregiously manipulated, you really see that
as like a through line of trauma among these characters.
It's it's so embarrassing. Yeah, So before we wrap, I
did want to give you a shout out for not
only making the show during COVID post production, all the
incredible work that went into the series, but you also
(38:16):
had a second child. Can you be so tell me
a little bit about how you were able to do this.
This is so funny, This is why I was thinking
about the courtroom scenes in episode nine because maybe this
is t m I, but I don't care, Katie. Your
whole brand is TAMA good good, good good. Well you're right.
The whole week we were in the courtroom was the
(38:38):
week of shutdown, So this is like March nine, and
I was trying to have a baby that same week. Wow,
I'll never forget it, because times were scary, you know,
like we were losing extras every day to some sort
of symptoms and not knowing what COVID was, and all
of a sudden, people were running around the set like
(38:59):
sanitize all the door knobs, and the food shifted from
being sort of like a buffet style to all individually wrapped,
I mean, things that we are now getting used to.
But and we shut down March thirteenth, and I ran
home to l A March thirteenth at eight am because
I was getting these weird tech saying New York's going
(39:19):
to shut down. There's not gonna be any way in
or any way out. And we went back to l A.
And one week later, March eighteenth, I was like, I
think I'm pregnant. Wow, I was pregnant and right after
telling my husband, I called Shonda because I thought we
were going back to work in like two weeks, and
I said, um, I'm pregnant. I'm terrified, to which she
(39:46):
was the best friend a girl could ask. Horton was like,
I'm already talking to medical staff. You're gonna be fine.
After she said congratulations and flipped out. Of course, it's
certainly excited and supportive, but she was very, very caring
in to make sure that she real thought I was
gonna be okay, and she was right. I was, thank god.
But also I spent my whole pregnancy basically quarantined up
(40:08):
with the show not going back, and then the show
went back in the September after shut down, and I
was do with my baby in November. And this is
why Shawna Land Shawnda Land and why she's the best.
But she was like, We're just going to take all
of your leftover Rachel scenes, which was a lot. I
thought it wasn't it was. It was all of five
(40:30):
everything that's the friends and the parties and the I
had to do all of episode five and then some
other little things here and there. Five six days of work,
which is not a little she said, I'm going to
put them all. At the last five or six days
of the entire shoots, I had my baby had a
four month maternity leave. I was so freaking taken care of.
(40:54):
But I also was kind of concerned because I was like, Ship,
we're going to cut this all together, and I've worked
so hard on this part and I literally am like
twenty pounds different. And not that I give a shit
about being twenty pounds different, but more for the consistency,
more for the character. I just never wanted my work
that the audience would be more concerned, like, wow, she
looks nothing like the scene that we just saw because
(41:16):
they were going to be strung together. And I was like, shit,
it's not like one episode I shot pre pregnancy and
one postpregnan scenes Like I'm literally doing scenes back to
back where I am different. Thank God it was Lynn
Paulo because she had been through my first pregnancy before
on Scandal. She knows my body better than I do.
And I have to say this, the power of women
helping women in those situations bumps about it. Not that
(41:36):
men aren't helpful, but just the fact that there's a
shorthand there. It was really, really, really magical, and I'm
so relieved honestly watching it back, like I like, fucking great.
I was thrilled. I mean there was only one scene
out of all the scenes where I was like, whoa,
then be some breastfeed and boobs. The rest of it,
I was like, ship, I can't really tell. It's why
(42:00):
you're so happy when she calls and you're like, I'll
play anything. I mean, not only because creatively you know
it's going to be amazing, but you're just so respected
as a person. Well, there's a lot to like in
the show, and I want to congratulate you on your
amazing work. Thanks Stacy, and really every person we're speaking
to for this podcast. It's just a miracle to get
anything made, especially the last two years, and the show
(42:22):
really is an accomplishment. So be very proud. Thank you, Stacy,
Thank you so much for listening, everybody, and come back
next week for the final episode of our series with
Anna's real life attorney, Todd Spodeck. If you are the
type of woman that it's coming to my office in
(42:43):
a Saturday and you want me to believe you're a
German heiress, I like that you kind of crazy, and
I like crazy. We'll also discuss how Anna's Trial was
adapted for television with writer Matt Burne. My first impressions
were that Todd was completely like competent to be Frank
really okay. I just didn't know this character well enough.
(43:04):
It just felt completely insane to me. If you're enjoying
this show, please subscribe, share with your friends, rate, or
leave us a review. All of that good stuff. And
if you haven't finished Shonda Lands Inventing Anna on Netflix,
please go do that. We really don't want to spoil
it for you. Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is executive
(43:26):
produced by Sandy Bailey, Lauren Hohman, Tyler Clang, and Gabrielle Collins.
Our producer and editor is Nicholas Harder, and the show
is produced and hosted by me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing
(43:50):
Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shonda land
Audio in partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts
from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com