Asheville's Crackdown on Mutual Aid Part 1

James and Mia talk to Sarah, a mutual aid organizer facing felony littering charges in Asheville, NC.

 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi everyone, it could happen here and today it's near
and myself and we're doing two interviews, which is going
to split over two different episodes. What we're talking about
is a case in Ashua, North Carolina where a group
of people doing mutual aid work with and How's people
have been charged with felony littering. Now we're going to
get a little bit in the episode into what felony
littering is. Unfortunately, I don't think any of us can

(00:28):
explain why that exists as a charge for individuals and
not for BP or SHELL or something, but such as
a state. And so in the first episode, we're going
to talk to Sarah. Sarah is one of the people
facing these felony littering charges. Sarah's also been banned from
parks in Nashville and which we're going to talk about.
So Sarah will explain a little bit of the process

(00:49):
that led up to those felony littering charges, what the
situations like in Asheville for mutual Aid in front How's people.
And then we're going to talk to Meniba tomorrow. Maniba
is one of the lawyers at the ACLU, and she
will explain a little bit of the legal background to
the case and what is sort of the way that
the a CEOU is helping these people oppose the ban.

(01:10):
So we'll have two separate episodes, but we actually recorded
them in a different order, So you're going to hear
Sarah maybe referring to some stuff Maniva said, and Maniva
saying Sarah will say some stuff. Just know that we
recorded Mani the first because she had a pressing time commitment,
but we felt that Sarah's interview gives you a better
set up for listening to many of the interview tomorrow. Okay,
hope you enjoy. We're going to start out talking to Sarah.

(01:31):
He's one of the people who is a quote unquote
problem child in Asheville. We can yeah, yeah, okay, Sarah,
did like to introduce yourself and tell us where you're
a problem child? Yeah, my name is Sarah Norris. Um.
It's so funny to be called something like a problem

(01:51):
child because I'm mostly like what I am as a
mom of a little kid. I'm a social work student,
like I am a career educator, um. And I am also, yeah,
one of sixteen local organizers who who has been facing
for almost the last year felony littering charges in conjunction

(02:17):
with December twenty one. December twenty twenty one art spaced protest. Yeah,
I'm sorry, did this bizarre thing has happened to you? Obviously,
like on the face fit felines, felonines ring is a
bizarre charge, and the fact that you are banned from
parks is also very weird. Alright, So let's maybe start

(02:39):
off with, like the situations before this, what were you
what we were doing in the parks that led to
you being deemed unsuitable for parks? Gosh, no way, you'd
have to ask those who deemed who so deemed us?
But I can talk about what I did in parks
for the year prior to being banned, and that's I

(03:01):
was part of a collective whom who at the beginning
of the pandemic um did like six times a week meals, coffee,
gear distribution in parks. Um. By the time I came
around and started participating in these in these food sharings,

(03:21):
in these community gatherings, UM, we were at like two
or three times a week. And UM, really, what the
way I spent my time in parks was Saturdays and Sundays.
I brought my daughter to Aston Park and we brought

(03:42):
food with us, gear with us, art supplies with us,
or nothing with us. We just showed up as us
and we hung out and we distributed food, tents, packs, socks, toothbrushes,
really whatever we could get our hands on. And towards
the end of the year we got a little bookshelf

(04:05):
and uh we were we were in charge of bringing
books UM on this like little white plastic shelf and
like talking to people about what they most wanted and
see if they can match them up with whatever we
randomly had. UM. It was really like sitting in the
sunshine and making sure the coffee thing was full. Um.

(04:26):
And mostly just talking to people, people who were run house,
people who are housed, people who walked by and were like,
what's this? What's this picnic? Why is everybody like using
glitter glue? Like, oh, because there's a five year old
and that's what we do. UM. So so that's what
mostly I did in Parks, UM. And this is this

(04:47):
this activity, um isn't the context of a city. Who
I think in twenty twenty one, UM, I think we
know there were at least twenty ones weeps of homeless
encampments UM and a sweep like that name for some

(05:09):
of us, really connotes violence, but I think it's important
to name how violent those are. UM. A camp sweep
means that folks have to leave the place where they've
been living, and very often their belongings are then considered
to be trash, are bulldozed over, are are at a

(05:34):
minimum lost to them. And this had happened over and
over again in the city of Asheville. And yeah, there's
a way that that being in the park weekly felt
like a thing that happened in Ashville that was the
opposite of feats, that was like we're here, We're all

(05:55):
here together, like here we are UM. And so the
protest itself around which in the context of which like
these arrests have come, happened in December and it was
an arts based protest and was really about was in

(06:20):
favor of sanctuary camping in the city of Ashville with
sanitation services. That was the point of it. And there
were like kind of standard protest related events on or sorry,
arrests on Christmas night. So that's what UM Ashville police did.

(06:40):
And I think it's important just to note that there
were not unhoused folks evicted that night on Christmas night,
and no one who was there was pretending to be
unhoused and was arrested. That's a strange narrative that the
City of Asheville Police Department has set in open court.

(07:00):
But there were standard sort of like misdemeanor trespass resisting
officer arrest that night, including of journalists, and then these
felony littering cases came much later and in a kind
of a different context. But that's what that's what happened
around Christmas. Okay, yeah, it's already pretty weird, but I think, yeah,

(07:24):
it gets waited. Yeah, yeah, So particularly if you were
not arrested, then I went home and chrismusy stuff, and
then at some point, well a letter comes to your
doors saying that you've been charged with like felony littering.
So my own experience, um, was that people organizers in

(07:50):
the mutually collective that I'm part of, who had been
showing up in the parks week after week distributing food
and gear, started getting arrested in mid January. For um,
what we learned was something you could be arrested for,
which was felony littering and or aiding into and a

(08:11):
betting felony littering, which like honestly exactly and and some
people had one, some people had the other, some people
had both. Um people were and this is you know,
our understanding is that there's an unstated but generally followed
policy by the City of Usha police de forma that

(08:32):
they don't go arrest people at work. But they went
to people's work with five cops and arrested them, um.
And this began in mid January, and it continued um
into into February and be arrest I mean, like honestly,
the charges on the on the charge sheets would read

(08:54):
like crazy statues that weren't even felony littering. It seems
like they it really seemed like they were making it
up as they went along. Just from the what I
can say is, I mean, I can't speculate about what
they were doing, but there was a strangeness to to
even like the documentation that people who are arrested received.
And then at the in the first week of March

(09:17):
of last year, the letter that I received was similar
to others that others other folks received that day, which
was in an envelope from the Ashville Police Department, but
was on Ashell Parks and ch stationary that told me
that I had been banned from all city parks for

(09:40):
a period of three years based on the commission of
a celony. And this was how I found out that
I even had any charges, was through this letter. And
that's true for more than me, that's true for a
few defendants. So you know, not everybody who is now

(10:02):
we understand to be banned from parks has even received
one of those letters, but I did, and a few
of us did, and there was on there a sort
of like if you would like to appeal this, you
have seven days, but the letter had been dated sort
of five days before that, and we were like, wow,
what are we even doing? And so it's hard to

(10:26):
it's hard to really communicate the like level of um
both like sort of desperation and nonsense that was involved.
The next day, but um, you know, so a few
of us found this out. We were we self surrendered
and because we were a lot of us around the

(10:47):
courthouse in city hall, we were trying to figure out
what does this letters even mean, Like what does it
mean to appeal this? What does it mean to be banned?
And so we trapsed around city hall, city offices, the
courthouse trying to get some sort of answer like what here,
we've got these what does this mean? And every place
sent us somewhere where they were like, we don't know

(11:09):
what that is. Park Snart said, we don't know what
that is. Go talk to the police. We said, we
don't know what that is. Go talk to the magistrate.
The criminal magistrate said, oh, this seems like a civil
magistrate thing. So there's like a group of five mutual
aid workers, you know, sort of just trapesing around trying
to find out like can I do I get to
go give out sandwiches intense in the park this week

(11:30):
or not for three years? What is? And who can
help me figure this out? And no one could and
what insod? We never got an answer that day. We
just had city employees looking at us, often with a
like wow, we don't We're sorry this is happening to you.
This seems really dumb expression. And eventually via email it

(11:54):
became clear that they were like, we don't know what
this process is, but we're going to tell you soon.
Thank you for your email, you know, saying you're going
to appeal it and over time, we kind of got
a little bit more like, Okay, we're going to schedule
the hearings. You will have a hearing eventually, Like okay,
we asked who will be these are, like for what
what is a hearing? And they didn't know, and then like, oh, okay,

(12:18):
well there will be some police officers there and you know,
the city representative from the city Attorney's office, and you
will have a chance to provide information. And you know,
at this point, like none of us, I think none
of us had maybe we'd had adamin appearances, but like
at this point, we're dealing with felony littering charges that
we don't understand. We're trying to figure out whether we

(12:40):
can continue to provide community care in the way we've
been doing for years, and it seems like what the
city is offering is a chance to come and maybe
entrap ourselves. Like it doesn't make any sense to us.
And so you know, those of us who had presentation

(13:00):
that we could speak to said, oh, we're coming, and
have you heard the recordings? No, Well, if you would
like them, I'm happy to send them. Mine is particularly
I can't listen to mine. I have a huge nervous
system response, Um, but mine is my my attorney asking

(13:21):
over and over again questions of the of the representative,
the city attorney. It's not it's John Maddox, who's um
named in the ACLU demand letter. Um, just saying over
and over again, like what at that point, we haven't
even seen any discovery, Like we don't know what information
this is even based on, Like there are two cops
in uniform pointing body cams that assume I have to

(13:44):
assume pointing body cams at me, um, and in this hearing,
and my lawyer is just asking over and over again,
like upon what evidence is this space? And they just
said over and over again, you're here to give information.
We are not giving any information. My lawyer asking what
is the standard of review here? Like how upon what
is this base? And the parks director just saying, like

(14:06):
my decision and the and and then and then you know,
what are the what is the remedy if this is
if the appeal is denied, there's none, then the appeal
is denied like and so it really was for me
one of the moments where I realized like, oh, the
city is is pretty hell bent on keeping a bunch

(14:28):
of sweethearts who give out tens and sandwiches out of
the park and they're gonna like they're they're upsistance in here.
But I'm happy to share that recording. We have all
of them reported. Yeah, I'd like that performance of like
sub legal ceremony well and like yeah and and like

(14:49):
pseudo in a dangerous and extra judicial way, like I
had no protections there, right, Yeah, it was like yeah,
there's I think to respond to. Yeah, like these these
are these these are Star Chamber proceedings, like like the
King of France is going to walk out. I just

(15:10):
think it seems like such a British thing, like yeah,
you told me this in Britain and you've been like
shooting the Queen's swans or something. I'd buy it. You know.
Here we are in the land of the free. You
know that well, And I think the equivalent of shooting
the Queen's swunts here is um hanging out with poor

(15:32):
folks in a park, um and in ways that inconvenience
or that apparently inconvenience the folks who go who pay
money because you have to to play tennis at a
public tennis court which is like right by Aston Park

(15:53):
and and we can go in in a minute as
much as you want to to what you saw as
far as like their attempts after their attempts to pass
to sneak through an ordinance. Um now we know quite
clearly from public records directed at at food sharing in
Austin Park. Yeah, it's really I keep thinking about that
that Helder Kamar aligned I When I give food to

(16:16):
the poor, they called me a saint. When I asked
why they are poor? They call me a communist. It's
like they really seem to have blown all the way,
Like they didn't even get to part two. They were
just like wait, hold on, you're giving food to the poor,
like it is time for a military response. It's just
it's just horrible. Yeah, and being banned from parks for

(16:36):
three years has a pretty big effect on my on
my little life, you know, like there are constitutional um
aspects to it that matter far beyond me and and
which matter in many ways more to me. But the

(16:58):
fact right now is that like I can't legally take
my young child like to the park, buy her house
without risking a rest for misdemeanor trust house, um and
and to my knowledge, I won't be able to for
three years. Um, and you know they've succeeded in getting

(17:18):
us out of the park. They caused the harm to
they disrupted community care. They did it. They didn't need
the ordinance. Um. You know, it does happen. Food distribution happens,
but it's in a place that really isn't the same.
Like my daughter can't go there. She has some sensory
stuff like being in the loud place that it is

(17:41):
right now, it really doesn't work. So yeah, there's this.
There's this very um like the scopes of all of
this from how Asheville as a city views and treats
the folks who live on the street here who the
city has most abandoned. There's the legal mechanisms, the like

(18:04):
very strange way they are like doubling down on criminalization
of folks doing community care. And then there's just like
the really day to day personal personal bits of this
that affect all of us in different ways, And a
felony would affect lots of us in different ways, Like
it endangers professional licensure, Like I'm trying to get a

(18:27):
social work license, like people it endangers professional licensure. Of course,
I right to vote, housing and employment and you know,
I'm the like middle aged, white, middle class mom, second
graduate degree person in the group. I am not really
representative of our group. Like folks are in a lot

(18:49):
less folks are in a lot more precarious and material
circumstances than I am, and so much so that like,
you know, it feels safe for me to come on
this podcast. It doesn't feel safe for everybody to come
on a podcast. It feel safe for me to have
my name out, like, um, it doesn't for everybody. And

(19:09):
I think, um, yeah, I think that that's something that
has to be named too. Of like how what I
threat this is to folks future material will being as
well as currently like folks have most housing over this,
Folks have lost employment over this, like um Jesus Christ. Yeah,
Like even if you're found completely innocent or whatever, like
this is robbed your time or people at the housing

(19:31):
or people's their jobs that caused stress and in that way,
you know, it does feel and often to us like
the like the punishment is the process. Yeah, it's just harassment.

(19:56):
So I don't know if I feel are updated on
like there are five of us being taken to trial.
Is that something you know? Okay? Yeah, So yeah, but
our listeners probably aren't so explain like so right after
this happened or at some point actually happening. So I
know when we started speaking, I was like, well, I'd
pr ra the shit out of all your city council people,
and you were like, we already have. Yeah, so because

(20:18):
there was some stuff in there that was just weirdly Yeah,
can you explain what you got from, like this has
got a problem jib monica come from, among other things. Sure, yeah, gosh,
it's so even talking about it, I have such a
reaction and um that I can feel um and I

(20:41):
should say, you know, I speak about this to my name,
not about the city the text necessarily, but I speak
about the situation to a lot of people because it
does feel to us like you know, they're also I
think they would like us to be ashamed, but we're
not ashamed of what is happening to I mean, that's
part of the degradation of a quick system. And so

(21:01):
you know, all of my neighbors know what is happening
to me, all of the people that I work with,
um in the various like uh, school related jobs and
such that I do, and to a person, everyone in
Asheville starts with disbelief. They're like no, and then I'm
like yes, and then they're just so disappointed, like they're

(21:22):
just they're so appalled. Often people say the number in
nineteen eighty four. Often people are like, wow, I really
I didn't know. Some people did know, you know that
the city was was like this. Um, but you know
that's that's sort of paralleled my experience in a way,
just like disbelief and then and then disappointment. UM. But yeah,

(21:47):
we recently it's intensify and recently seeing the publicly available
communication between council members UM, and and I think, UM,
I want to be careful and I don't have it

(22:08):
in front of me, and so I don't want to
I don't want to misquote it. But what I can say, UM,
is that anybody can go find on the City of
Aashables public records or posts. Anybody can go get those
now because they've been requested. Um. And so they're publicly available.
And we have texts between council members that that are

(22:29):
kind of debate, that that are in contemplation of an
ordinance that would restrict food sharing in public places to
to require permitting in contemplation of that, like we have
we have texts from council members calling um those who

(22:50):
do those who do fouturing ask and park problem children
UM and saying that it's a shame that the problem
children have ruined it for the rest of the class.
We have we have one saying, like, you know, probably
if if we go ahead, we city Council go ahead
with this, with this ordinance, there will be a lot
of protests and a lot of pushbacks, which of course
there was once it came out UM. And we have

(23:11):
the other council members saying like, yeah, that might be UM,
but if permitting is the only way to get them
to stop, then so be it. And I mean I
read that, and I have a variety of reactions, but
mostly just like a kind of nauseous disappointment UM in

(23:34):
And this is not true of all council UM because
some of some some folks have tried to like understand
the gap um being filled by folks who give out
food and gear in a part um. And I think
some of the council and have and have recognized it
as a gap um that is being filled. And I
think some are are so aware of what it says

(24:00):
about the city that folks have to show up in
a park and give out food and gear and there's
never enough of either. Um, they're so aware of what
that lays bear about the abandonment that the city practices
of those who live here that they can only see
that and they can only be angry with us, right
and call us problem children like forty three. Yeah, well

(24:23):
you can see the sort of light like the kind
of just like petty dictatorship mind that they've gotten themselves into.
We're like they can't see the people who like, you know,
nominally they're supposed to be serving, right, but like, okay,
we know how far that goes, but they can't see
like you as anything other than just like a child.
Because that's the kind of like this is the sort
of dictator brain that they've that they've had from like

(24:43):
holding this power. It's it kind of reminds me of
like how he's through the fourteenth He said, like the
state is me and therefore a tax on my reputation
or like a tax against the state. Like yeah, that's
how it feels like you're being treated us by making
them look bad. And I don't know if you saw

(25:04):
this also in there, but um, on the day that
the arrests happen. So so those discussions about the ordinance
were I think a little earlier in January that which
actually took that. Um. But there's a there's one that
came right on the day of the first arrests for
Lani lettering that um or someone asks like, can those

(25:27):
arrested be banned from certain places? Um? And and we
know now yes, but it is it's a lot to
see that. It's a lot to see what looks um,
what looks so deliberately like depriving us of the right
to be in a park? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, and so

(25:52):
where is where's the five you are going to trial? Yeah?
Unknown number of people are banned from parks in Nashville. Yes, yes.
My understanding is that we someone has been told, um, oh,
we don't keep records of that, which also doesn't make
a lot of sense. Yeah, how can you force a

(26:14):
bath if we don't have a record of who's bay?
Yeah and I just quoted on that, but UM, but
my understanding is that, like, um, is that that has
been the It's like, oh no, there aren't records that
we can that can be made public about that because
there's complete aren't the records? Um? What does that? Just
seems like that's just like incredibly bizarre secret police shit

(26:34):
of like, yeah, no, we have like we have we
have lists that don't exist of people who are banned
from spaces and we won't tell you what they are
because I don't existe. Yeah, you'll find out when this
what team comes from behind the swings and yeah yeah, yeah,
yeah terrible. So yeah, you're banned from the park, you're

(26:54):
facing you're going to trial. Yeah, five of us um
have been have been scheduled for trial, and the other
folks um have been kind of what's called taken off
the calendar, so they don't have nothing's dismissed um, but um,
but they're not scheduled. There's no there's no next court
date for them. Okay, so when when will you if

(27:18):
you don't mind saying, when would your trial date be?
Our trial date right now is set for February twenty seventh.
Well okay, so you're coming up, it's coming right up. Yeah,
that's tough. We'll make sure we get this out before then.
How can people support you, support the work that you
uh not doing in parks anymore? How can people help

(27:40):
you through this. I'm sure it's a really stressful trial prices. Yeah,
thank you for asking. Um. So we post updates in
a few different places. UM, But we don't have our
own Instagram right now because we're we just don't. But
our our defendant statements get released in a few different places,

(28:04):
including at a VL survival on INSTAGRAMM. We also have
a website where we always post our own statements and
also all the press that comes out about us, and
that is abl Solidarity dot no blogs dot org. We

(28:24):
have a VENMO which is used that those funds are
used for attorney fees um and and frankly, like you
know when someone loses housing or their car breaks down
and they have had trouble finding employment because they have
Felny lettering charges against them, and it's also used for
material needs in that way, and that is a VL

(28:47):
defendant fund and all that's actually on the website too.
You can find those um. And honestly, it matters so
much that people just know this is happening, you know,
when I tell people in Asheville, like more people know
now than did before. When I tell people outside of Asheville,
there's very much a like I thought about coming there.

(29:09):
I heard it was cool. They do want those who
make not just like a living from tourism, but those
who make tons of money from tourism are certainly invested
in thinking that it's really cool and coming to spend
your money here. And it's not cool in the ways
that they want you to think it's cool. It is
cool because neighbors show up for each other and you
can come here and we'll talk to you about that.

(29:30):
But there's a way that, like people knowing what this
place is really like does matter. And there's a way
that honestly, people just like sending us like they're they're
beautiful energy and hope really matters too, Like that actually
that actually really doesn't matter. So they can send us
through beautiful energy and hope and material contributions as they
might have them. Yeah, I'm sure people will because horrifically

(29:54):
fucked up. I wanted to ask what it's the sentence
range for felony literary Yeah, um, so um, it's the
lowest class of felony. As it happens, none of us

(30:17):
have any criminal history, we'd be facing felony probation, and
so that could that there's a range there of whether
that probation is supervised or unsupervised. UM. There's a range
of how long it would be, there's a range um
of restitution in terms of community service, UM and and

(30:39):
I actually don't have the paper in front of me
that says what the range of those things are, but
I feel like it's eight to twelve months on probation
um and a lot of that is simply at the
discretion of incentencing um and um. And I think that
that there are some puzzible restrictions on just like being
able to leave the state. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,

(31:02):
I mean yeah, sorry, christ Like, this is fully fucking
sent me now because a guy, a man called Robert
Wilson in San Diego was arrested for hate crimes because
he assaulted his gay neighbor. Since he was arrested, he's
driven around San Diego and La dressed as a Natzi,
sometimes with horrifically anti semitic slogan, has just left the

(31:22):
country and is living in Poland because because fucking like somehow, sorry,
I'm sorry, I love it. This is fully fully sent
me now too. Yeah yeah, what is wrong with this ship?
Yeah there was something else you wanted to get to you. Yeah,

(31:43):
I think I wanted to name so. You know, people
are so in a way like I wish I had
a super cut of everyone I've ever said the word felony,
lettering too, just like over and over again. Maybe I'll
come to Asheville and just vox pops pop. Yeah. Um
so there's a way that you know, of course, that's

(32:03):
just like and if you add on aiding and a betting,
which we've all been bumped up to follow me, littering,
um but or sort of but but but the mystemar
is conspiracy to commit no, yeah, what's next? Reco charge exact? Yes,
so um so on its face, you know, it has

(32:24):
this ring of absurdity, and of course like it is,
you know, a lot of the press about us, you know,
they'll go talk to someone at the School of Government
who says, like, well, this is baffling and at the
very least seems like a misapplication of the statute, which
is about um, huge amounts of waste often being like
dumped by businesses. Um. But I think it's it's it's

(32:47):
telling that a couple maybe a month or two ago,
there was an article in the Citizen Times, a local paper,
about US and a company, Waste Pro, which had dumped
an entire dumpster's worth of trash. Now I'm like out
somewhere outside of UM where it should have been like

(33:11):
in the landfill, And but it was all about like
how actually they had followed procedure because there was like
maybe a little bit of a battery fire or something.
There was something going on with it where they they
weren't supposed to bring it in, so they just had
to dump it UM. But in the course of this
article UM they interviewed a lot of people about like, well,

(33:32):
what's going on with like litter in general and like
big amounts of litter, and our case was never mentioned,
but they did talk to some folks who who do
river clean up, an organization called GreenWorks, and that person said,
you know, sometimes there are like there's huge amounts of
dumping that happens, and we call the city and they say, yeah,

(33:53):
that's illegal, but we don't actually prosecute that, and like,
you know, that's the sort of thing also that seeing
in print, I'm just like, what what sort of strange
like dystopian novel am I living in where the city
is so upfront that like, oh no, like we wouldn't
prosecute felony littering, but when it comes to aiming to

(34:21):
disrupt a kind of community care and political speech that
they don't like, they're willing to expend an incredible amount
of resources on it. You know, like the number of
resources that have gone into this would have funded like
sanctuary camping with sanitation services like for years, for years,
and you know, I think you alluded though maybe this

(34:44):
is in the future of the podcast, like to the
way the City of Asheville or our lawyers have been
clear that when you when you look at the City
of Asheville's like public apnouncements and the way that they
talk about U homelessness, it does seem like, oh wow,
we're really we're really trying to get on this um.

(35:05):
But at a recent meeting where a consultant group often
referred to as like yeah, that other like that that
consultant group from now because it's happened to over and
over again, presented findings about like what should actually be
done to end unheltered homelessness. Here presented findings to the
city Council and accounting commissioners. No one was allowed to

(35:28):
talk except for this huge meeting no one was allowed
to talk except for council members and commissioners and those
who were presenting. But a man who actually has experienced
was experience with homelessness got up and talked anyways, and
he was interrupted by the mayor and like that's telling
in its own right. Um, that's that's telling in its

(35:50):
own right. Also telling is that later um also not
allowed to speak, a local pastor got up and said,
you know, I saw that happen. You know, like what
we need to be doing is actually listening to the
folks who've experienced this and like data, yes, we need data,
but we also need to like actually listen to the

(36:10):
voices of what's going on. And he used the phrase um,
which I think was echoing the man who had spoken
earlier spiritual death, and said that this he thinks as
a pastor, that Ashville is in a moment of spiritual death.
And in a way, that's why I say, like we
need you, We need your material contributions to us as

(36:33):
defendants to collective care. Like when we have extra money
in that defendive fund, we just give it away. Some
people can buy more tents, and we need like we
need some hope because Ashville is in this moment where
it's as a city, it's making choices that seem so
misaligned not just with like the image that it would

(36:55):
like to sell to tourists, but like with with the
people who live here and are actually like about it
day to day in a neighbor's caring for a neighbor's way,
Like really misaligned with what we actually want and what
we actually are capable of offering each other. Yeah, yeah,
it is deeply sad that, like we've created this abstraction

(37:17):
of society which is being entirely antisocial, like no one
wants no one. Yeah, no reasonable person would do that.
But we've got the state which interiacts on our behalf
and is doing it. Yeah yeah, which also is probably
I know, to editorialize for a second. Often people will
make this argument. I see it specifically around gun laws,

(37:39):
but with other laws to where this law won't always
be enforced. I only use it if they need it,
if they have to get a bad person. They will
use it if anybody threatens their interest, their shit right.
So it was extensively mobilized for a ghost gun law here,
which made some bizarre things illegal, like the bank stick,
which you use for spear fishing is now scan and

(38:00):
a felony, and like there were definitely boomers who have
dozens of those in the garage right and don't keep
up on local audiences and are now in theory at
risk of committing a felony. And then obviously the response
to that from the councilors, Oh, well, we wouldn't charge him,
like who we can't trust the state to be benevolent
when it's your experience has shown it's anything but and

(38:22):
you know we And I can say this personally because
I've spoken I've spoken to people in city government or
in state government who I've just said like, hey, did
you know this is happening? Um? And and they're clear
about how Um sure it sounds Nettie but the city

(38:42):
but like that that we as a group have been
painted as particularly dangerous. And that part to me is like,
I mean, don't do this to anybody, you know, don't
do it to anybody. But the part where where what's
going on is like it's is this strange justification, um,

(39:04):
with the idea that that we are dangerous people who
deserve to be taken you know, who need to be
taken out of a park who need to not be
allowed to be in a park, you know, is particularly
easily disproved by anyone who actually like hangs out with us,
knows what, knows who we are and what we've done,

(39:24):
but not when it's just like a weird whisper campaign
in the in the halls of city government, like, oh no,
they're bad, Like there's bad um. Like we've heard the
lies that they've told about us. Some of them we
have in um in you know, public records requests like
um that we haven't even talked about. But it's it's
a it's a really strange thing to be to be

(39:46):
painted that way. Yeah, yeah, it's basign. Again, I'm sorry
it's happening to you. And so I think to wrap up,
maybe again you could just give that. Then most people
can support materially and yeah, you know, if there's any
other social media account where people can follow along, where
people can send their support and best wishes that, yeah,

(40:09):
that's great. Our Venmo is a VL defendant fund, and
yeah you can so on Instagram. We're easy to get
you through a VL survival and there's a way to
contact us through our website. We can have a little
we have a little email. I'll be so cute to
get some supportive emails. And that website is a VL

(40:32):
solidarity dot no blogs dot org. Amazing. Thank you all
so much. Thank you for giving us your time. I'm
sorry that you dealing with the farious state bullshit, all right,
So that wraps up. Are into you with Sarah. Tomorrow
we'll be talking to Maniba from the ACOU, the American
Civil Liberties Union, and she will be giving us a

(40:54):
legal perspective and some more insight into this case. We'll
look forward to talk with you then. It Could Happen
here as a production of cool Zone Media. For more
podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website Coolzonemedia dot
com or check us out on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources

(41:15):
for It Could Happen Here, updated monthly at coolzonemedia dot
com slash sources. Thanks for listening.