Bioregionalism Ft. Saint Andrew

Saint Andrew joins us for a discussion on Bioregionalism and ecology.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
Could it happen here? It maybe? I Robert Evans, host
of this podcast, UM to introduce this today's episode, which
is not my episode, it's it's Andrew's, uh episode. So
how how are you doing? Andrew? How do you in

(00:26):
that introduction? I'm good. I think it's um could use
some work, but you know, well shop it. Yeah. We
we never workshop anything. We just we just roll right ahead. UM,
so abolish that. Abolish introductions. You know, start in the middle.
Why don't we just do that now in media res podcast? Yeah,
we'll make every podcast like Finnigan's Wake, where the opening

(00:48):
of the podcast is like halfway through a paragraph that
the end of the paragraphs or at the end of
the episode starts every everything will be a circle. Let's
just Sophie. I think that's the new plan. Okay, okay, Andrews,
what do you guy for us today? Right? So, today
I wanted to talk about bioregions and bioregionalism. It's uh

(01:10):
philosophy slash movement slash way of viewing things. There's a lot.
So today we'll be exploring what it is, where it
came from, and the role I see it playing in
our strides towards anarchy. But first, of course we'll really
gets some context bioregionalism. Have any of you heard of it?

(01:32):
By the way, I have heard the tournament right right,
So it's actually pretty recent, um, all things considered. UM.
It was coined as a term by a guy named
Alan Van Newkirk, found of the Institute for Bioregional Research,

(01:55):
and as a movement it really gained a lot of
popularity in the late seventy is in the Osaks, Appalachia,
Hudson River, and San Francisco Bay Area regions. UM. They
had a conference in a prairie, interestingly enough, their Kansas City,
and they've also had conferences in the Squamish bioregion of

(02:18):
British Columbia as well as the Gulf of main By
region on the Atlantic. And of course with all these
different people coming together sharing all their different ideas talking
about cool nature stuff, they developed us sort of a
platform which they outline in papers on subjects changing from
agriculture to forestry, to arts, economics to community. So while

(02:43):
it was a very North American focused movement and philosophy
at first, it has also expanded to Europe and Australia
and these groups, they are hundreds of them all over. Um.
They get involved with local ecological work like preservation and restoration,
cumic culture or that. And they also form networks so

(03:03):
they would link on specific issues like water conservation or
organic farming or cheap planting. And of course bioreginal groups
also get involved in attempts to make communities more self
sufficient by mapping and utilizing local assets and well, as
you come to see, um, bioregionalism and maps kind of

(03:25):
go hand in hand away, um, because it really is
about that sort of big picture looking at the earth
and the environment and outplace in it. So what is
bioregionalism exactly? In essence, it's a philosophy based around the
organization of political, cultural, and economic systems around naturally defined

(03:47):
areas called bioregions sort of bioregions. There are areas defined
through physical and environmental features, including watershed boundaries, soil and
terrain characteristics, flora, fauna, and climate. Bioregionalism also stresses the
determination of a bioregion is a cultural phenomenon and emphasizes

(04:10):
local populations, local knowledge, and local solutions. Because humans are
actually surprisingly part of nature, our cultures or settlements. They
arise from nature, They arise from the characteristics of the
bio regions that we inhabit. So I mean that to

(04:31):
me is a clear duty and bioregionalism and landmack. And
it also points to me, um, the fact that while
bioregionalism maybe a fairly recent philosophy starsh movement, its roots
and the ideas it presents are nothing new, you know, Um.
I mean bioregionalism posits that, you know, human societies must

(04:53):
learn to honor our bioregions and the connections between them
if we have to be ecologically sound. And this was
an active is really old news, you know, for the
indigenous peoples who have maintained these lands and been stewards
of these lands for thousands of years. I think that
thinking in a bioregional scale allows us to establish regenerative

(05:16):
and circular economies, effectively restore local ecosystems, restructure our systems
using ecological design principles, and of course deepen our cultural
connections to the land inhabit. So that to me really
stresses the importance of bioregionalism in our approach to environmental issues.

(05:43):
Before I continue, I just wanted to say that for
those who want to like visualize, because I know this
is a podcast, you can only hear my voice. Um
One Earth has a pretty decent map of bio regions
on their website, so you could just google bio regions
and it should come up. They basically have like bio

(06:05):
regions on their map, and well, according to that map,
trend that is part of bio region anti NT standing
for neotropic and E standing for the East, and tadas
grouped with South America and particularly the Venezuela Guyana's region

(06:27):
for obvious reasons being that the or no coup and
other rivers that come from the Amazon flew out to
you know, trend ads shows really so clunky segue Um.
There are a couple of different concepts that one might

(06:50):
want to keep in mind when approaching or attempting to
curate a bio regional understanding of the world. Of course,
perspective and a bioregional perspective is important, and it's basically
one that seeks to ensure that political boundaries match ecological boundaries,

(07:13):
highlighting the unique ecology of the bio region, encouraging the
consumption of local foods where possible, encouraging the use of
local materials where possible, and encouraging the cultivation of natsive
plans in the region. I will point out, like from now,
that's from what I've read about bioregionalism and the talks
that I've seen, there are definitely some you know, liberal sensibilities,

(07:38):
some capitalist realism um in the way that some bioregionalists
talk about, you know, things like organizing our politics and
our states and stuff around bio regions. Obviously, you know,
they are pushing things pretty far because they do talk about,

(08:00):
you know, going and really orienting our economy around you know,
bio regions and thinking in terms of that. But at
the same time, there's still like an almost passive acceptance
in some of the readings that I've seen of capitalism.
You know, I think that's pretty common in a lot

(08:21):
of what I like to call almost radical um ideas
and philosophies and stuff. Of Course, when I approached these
ideas and these philosophies and stuff, I always try to,
you know, keep that anarchist analytical freework in my head,
understanding that you know, these ideas are still being filtered

(08:46):
through an ultimately like Campitus society and capitalist world, and
so you're gonna want to try to navigate that and
sift that out and really get the nuggets of gold
within these ideas. I don't see states, UM, and I
think you would agree with me being the path out

(09:07):
of you know, that's a climate catastrophe. UM. For those
who have been reading like you know, Against the Green
and you know Grieb's work, we know that states have
been pretty equalsider from their very inception. So I think
that if paroigionalism would be effective, I think it would

(09:29):
be best if it stayed away from that sort of
status um conception. They do emphasize localism UM as the
political localism, but it's always in the context of was
often within the context of like the relationship between the

(09:50):
local and the state and that sort of thing almost
like a kind of I don't know if I'm using
this to him correctly, but like monarchism, does that makes
sense some kind of was it some kind of like
municipalist almost something like that. But yeah, yeah, we should
probably talk a little bit about like what what manarchism

(10:13):
and municipalism are um, just so people don't get kind
of caught up on the terms UM, and particularly I
think that like within a context of like the United States,
UM municipalism is kind of an easier way to sell
folks who may be more conservative on certain anarchists principles.
It's basically the idea of yea strong community sort of

(10:37):
control and autonomy UM, as opposed to uh, strong overarching
kind of federal or state control over over uh you know,
different communities. Yeah. Yeah, because menarchism is kind of like
a weird grab bag thing that's like it's it's it's
sort of like, Okay, so you want to be in
anarcho capitalist, but you can't because you're just smart enough

(11:00):
to realize that you can't have a proper right of
the state. So either the America state is the only
thing it does is enforced property rights. And yeah, I
think that's a slightly terrifying vision, but I think but
you know, it's it's yeah, it's a more self away
than the age. Yeah, but you know this is yeah,

(11:21):
and I think that is less of a focus specifically
on property rights and more of more based out of
an understanding that UM like strong hierarchical federal or even
state level control UM generally winds up creating reach a
lot of a significant amount of like regional um uh,

(11:43):
what's the word I'm looking for, um inequalities um and
and is responsible for a lot of like ecological devastation
and whatnot. This idea that you can have, like like
one of the things that you would have with an
actual municipalist system is you wouldn't be allowed to operate
a company like Coke Industries that's abled who um you know,
be based out of I think Kentucky, um, but operate

(12:05):
a series of refineries in the Gulf Coast that render
large sections of that area uninhabitable because you would leave
kind of control over what can be actually done in
that area to the people who live there, rather than
being able to have um a corporation by land there
and have its right to pollute enforced by the state. Right.
That's kind of like one little example. UM there's a

(12:26):
municipalists the system in northeast Syria and Rojava is is
sort of a municipalist system and one of the specifically libertarian. Yeah,
I mean there's an distinction between like, well generally and yeah,
we're we're getting into the weeds a little bit here,
but these are these are like that's kind of the
basics of what those terms mean, just so that people
don't get lost when you when you bring them up,

(12:48):
because I think a lot of folks, um, you know,
don't have necessarily that kind of those definitions, don't just
pop up in their head when you use that word. Right, yeah,
fair enough. UM. I also mentioned that states have been
eco sidle from their inception, so I feel like I
should probably trying to find that as well. UM equal

(13:12):
side and ecosidal is um is basically UM this idea
that came out to the environmentalist movement um menttive points
to the survey harm to nature, the mass damage and
destruction of ecosystems that's you know, caused over decades by

(13:33):
you know these companies and really buy the system as
a whole. So it's often viewed through like a legal lens,
as in, you know, these UM companies should be tried
for their crimes UM and as like for committing eco
side and that kind of thing, because it's it's often

(13:54):
viewed like as like a llegal like lawer should be
put in place to classify ecoside as a crime and
that sort of thing. UM. Only a few countries have
done that like actually quotified ecoside, but it is something
that um, so environmentalists pushed, you know, really raise awareness
as a crime against humanity and the planet. Yeah. I

(14:25):
think it's also kind of important understand with Equal Side
is that like there's a lot of focus I think
in like left like in fronmoutal movements just purely incorporations
and even if you go back to the companies memes
just like Hunter companies destroying the planets like well yeah,
like like half of the merse they don't. Yeah, and
so you know, yeah, this this is something like like

(14:45):
with the Equal Side, it's like yeah, it's like it's
not just corporations that do this. It's you know, it's
it's this the state as a structure. It's the state
as an institution. Is the state as exactly, Yes, it's
their agencies as they're sort of And that's that's what
I try to like what I realized this is kind
of important now and I guess it is kind of
like slowly like shifting away from bi rationalism, but that's fine. Um.

(15:09):
What I will say that I've tried to like consciously,
um sort of put into practice is emphasizing that like
capitalism is not the only issue, you know, um Like,
I those people like try to separate capitalism on the state,
as if they could ever truly be separated. Even people

(15:30):
who understand that, you know, aca capitalists are misguided and
that you know, the state is necessary to maintain capitalism,
there's some sort of like disconnect where there's like a
whole ton of you know, organization and meming and all
that about capitalism, and you know, oftentimes these sort of

(15:52):
efforts are like particularly with reformist types and unions and stuff,
they try to mediate with capitalism through real the state,
you know, through the government, look ree, local government or
federal government, whever the case and be. And what I
really tried to emphasize is that it's not enough to

(16:13):
have like a theory of capitalism. I think it's even
more important to have a theory of hierarchy because I
think it avoids it helps to avoid getting into these
sort of traps of like um well, class reductionism for one,
but also like recreating certain structures within your organizations and

(16:36):
in your efforts to change things, recreating the very you know,
circumstances you're fighting against. You can't like condense everything into
one problem, because try as we might, it's not that
everything is one problem. It's an interconnected mesh that binds

(16:58):
all of our problems together. And you can focus on,
you know, really big extensions of that mesh, but it
still is kind of just a mesh. And the mesh
isn't the thing, but it connects to the edges of
all of the things. And yeah, that type of ecology
can be useful and even even relating to bioregions um

(17:19):
in terms of how they also connect with other territories
and entities. I think it also you know it this
is one of the sort of problems that you have
if you know, it's like, okay, so your plans it
takes sort of sovereign state power. It's like, well, you
do it, right, But I mean the thing is if
if you if you you know, you seez control of
power of a state, right, your borders are essentially just

(17:41):
like where the state's war machine ran out of steam,
and you know, and this this becomes a normal problem
because like I mean, if if you look at the
bioregional maps, right, it's like there's there's literally no way
you could ever have states with these borders because yeah,
it's not like this. It's it's it's impossible, like you
you cannot do it. And you know what that means

(18:02):
is that states are sort of necessarily going, well, they're
either going to be like a small fraction of a
bioregion or they have multiple in them. And that's another
sort of that becomes a sort of logistical problem because
you know, like if you want to look at like
a lot of the worst sort of ecological sort of
like human disasters, it's when you get states attempting to

(18:22):
apply like states environmental issues. Yeah. Yeah, it's more certifically
like it. It's it's you know, they have something that
like sort of works in one test environment and then
they broadly apply it across you know, an enormous sort
of variety of areas and regions to have their own
biospheres and have their own and that stuff. That's like
that's like the fastest way to kill an enormous number

(18:43):
of people. Yeah, just like it's like forcing a jigsaw
piece that obviously doesn't fit into a spot where you
want it to, but you're just breaking the pieces. I
want to say as well, that like that sort of
I mean, at least the states are testing it, right, Um,
I remember I kind of remember the exact name of
like the the sort of like ideology or whatever. I

(19:06):
think it was like this Elie Soviet Union probably one
of your name, This Elie Soviet Union practice related to
like farming that they just applied over like a vast
fast region end up with like a huge decrease in
like food production. I can't remember the name of it.
Like Senku Oh yeah, yeah, he just had this, he

(19:28):
had this theory and it's just like puestionate and yeah,
it led to some serious issues. Yeah, and I think
you know, if we're gonna talk like what's important about
sort of birationalism, it's you have to have if you're
going to implement anything, right. You know. It's especially when
you're trying to sort of manipulate biosphies, you're trying to

(19:49):
preserve a biospheares, you have to have local knowledge from
the people who have been living in these biospheres for
you know, enormous amounts of time. And that's something that
states are really bad at and you know, tend to
actively suppress and it's something you know, and I will
say this there there's there's there's a kind of like
there's like a kind of neoliberal version of this stuff.
First like oh, well do you know who local have
like local knowledge blah blah blah. And then they're like, well,

(20:10):
well we'll have local knowledge. But they that this will
help them create market solutions to things. It's like that
also doesn't work. And it's basically just like yeah, but
because that I really like sits let doesn't sit well
with me. You know, like these sort of like see that.

(20:34):
You see a lot of liberals like doing it a
lot these days where they'll be like doing the whole
land acknowledge months thing and they'll be doing the that
thing where they would just like say that, oh this
is from so and sue culture and whatever, and then's
just like boom and then carry yeah, carry on with
business as usual. Yeah, which is I learned this technique

(20:56):
from SO and so. Try no, let me because I
can sultan for your company. Yeah yeah, yeah. It's it's
commod it's commodifying the thing, and that that both produces
a warped replication and then it also kind of makes
the original thing seem like used in a weird way

(21:21):
as well, like it wasn't designed. Yeah, yeah, I once
reminded a bit of alienation and how we are just
sort of separated from you know, aspects of our actual
humanity because of the structures we live under. Right, So
instead of relating with the environment, or relating with our culture,

(21:46):
or relating to other people, we're just relating through like
these commodities and these products and these you know, just
bastardized versions of things. And I think that is also
something that sort of pleagues like some environmentalists in terms.

(22:07):
So there's there's there's almost like this subtle ill nation
from the nature that um many of them seek to preserve,
right where on the one hand, yes, you're trying to
you know, preserve it and protect it and as commendable,
and the other hand, the way you're going about it

(22:29):
is basically like anti tactical to those schools, because you
don't have that connection with the nature that you're trying
to help. You know. What it seems like a lot
of people not recognizing is that you know, humans are
of hearts nature, right, and this is not a bioregional concept, right,

(22:52):
This thing called bioregional reinhabitation in it in being that
um meaning that we must come home to the geographical
and biophysicalter and reinhabit, understand its ecologically uniqueness, and familiarize
ourselves with the stories woven into the fabric of said land.
It's history, it's peoples, it's cultures, it's flora, it's fauna.

(23:15):
You know. It's only once we come home to the
our byo regions and to our ecosystems, to our places,
that we can really work together to see its potential,
to see how we fit into it, how we can
facilitate its healing, you know, bio region by bioy region. Yeah,

(23:36):
that definitely mirrors stuff I've been working on relating to
that type of like cognitive dissonance that you're talking about,
and that alienation not just from like human to human,
but human to human to place, because yeah, we have
like developed this like this commodified other version of nature

(23:56):
that isn't actually what nature is, um It's it's it's
we've arm this thing that is separate from us, which
is not how we need to think about it, because
it should be. We are all part of the same
of of of that same system. We are not separate
from it, and we're not isolated from it or its effects.
We are just another part of it. So it's about

(24:17):
getting in like getting a sense of ecology with both
your bioregion and then the biosphere as as as a whole,
and getting that ecology which kind of will break down
this notion of nature being in other and and I
think because of the idea of nature being another that
really kind of fosters our extraction that's led to our

(24:40):
our current problems because we don't use problems affecting us.
We give you them as a practice as affecting the territory.
And if we're if we're not the territory, then we
can be safe. But that's not so I go on.
I think, I think I may have talked about this
on the show before, but you know that there's another
aspect here, which is that viewing humans is sort of

(25:02):
like separate from like this abstract nature is how you
get a lot of really bad like racist environmentalism. Like
if you haven't read The Trouble with Wilderness by yeah,
crowning the Trouble with Wilderness is one of the things
that like if you're study, yeah, if you do environmental
studies at all, like this is one of the first
things they hand you and the reason they hand it
to you is because it you know, so the image

(25:26):
of wilderness that we have is sort of like, oh,
it's this like completely untapped thing, and it's like, well, yeah, okay.
So the reason the reason we have this image of
like a wilderness with nothing in it is because there
used to be people there and we killed them all
or fortunately deported them. Yeah. Yeah, and it's especiically wilderness. Yeah,
it was for us literally planted those forests were I

(25:51):
think even more pointedly should it should be stated those
forests were a work of engineering that's on par with
the Pyramids at Giza, if not absolutely massively in excess
of it there. They are a work of engineering that's
every bit as impressive as any city ever built. Um,
and every bit is like intense and required as much
knowledge and scientific understanding. People just all we had, all

(26:14):
of those people had died by the time white folks
really because of the spread of disease or just because
of act Like yeah, like I I think that's true.
Definitely the East coast, Like with the West Coast, I
think it's even grimmer because the West coast you and
this this happened, you still see this where like a
lot of like the American National Parks were literally like
like people would go and ethnically cleanse the population that

(26:35):
was there and then be like, oh hey look it's
it's now wilderness. This is now and this this is
like the origin of the environmental movement. It's all of
these like just like the most racist people you've ever
seen in your life, like people yeah, well and even
even even before them, like in you know, like early hundreds,
like not not just people like those guys hundreds. Yeah. Yeah,

(27:00):
it's like when when when when those guys are talking
about like the purity of the wild like they're everything
they think about the wilderness is also just about the
purity of the white race. And it's it's yeah and
if if if when you when when you start making
that this like that's the separation between hemes of nature,
Like that's that's how you get this, Like that's how
that's how you get these you know, ethnic cleansing like

(27:21):
genocide forests. I've been reading this very good book, just
started last night, and I think we're gonna have the
author on the show soon. Chris Begley. He's an underwater
archaeologist and he wrote a book called The Next Apocalypse
that's about collapses throughout history and how they actually differ
from the popular conceptions of them. And he actually talks
about a lot of the stuff we talk about in
this show UM. And one of the points he makes

(27:44):
is that this idea of like lost cities in dark
jungles and whatnot UM is based entirely on misconceptions first
of all about like what jungles are, and then second
on like these these very Eurocentric ideas towards what lost means.
Like he points out, every time there's been a lost
city or civilization discovered, it's because archaeologists just like asked

(28:05):
the people living there where the ruins were in there, like,
oh yeah, it's like right over there, Like we we've
known about this since forever. It was never lost, we
just stopped living in that specific area. And the other
thing he points out is that like this idea of
a jungle as like a difficult and primeval place is ridiculous.
If you had to pick anywhere to be stranded in
the world of in terms of bioregions, you would pick
a jungle like the Amazon, because it's pretty easy to

(28:27):
survive there. That's why people live there for so long. Yeah,
there's a ton of the Amazon Amazon as you know,
as we've discovered, you know, there were cities and stuff
happening the Amazon. You know, it was like planted. There's
food jungle like food forests and whatnot. Is the term
people use it within the jungle like people set the
people set the jungle in the Amazon up to provide

(28:50):
them with food in a way that isn't exactly isn't
the same as like what we consider to be agriculture,
but it's absolutely a kind of agriculture. And because people
don't see it as our just like oh, that's just
you know, they were just running around the forest before
we arrived, you know, it's like, yeah, no, they had
they had essentially built themselves a big smart house in

(29:12):
the middle of the woods that provided them with everything
they needed. Um with upkeep that we would consider minimal
based on like what a lot of our European ancestors
that certainly like did in terms of labor to keep
farms going. Like if you compare, I mean you could
also talk about how like peasants in the medieval period
probably worked less than a lot of people in the

(29:33):
United States duties. Yeah, like everyone works less we do now,
But it's a lot harder to keep like a mono
culture farm going than it is to to keep a
food forest going. Yeah, because I mean, once it's established,
it literally maintains itself. Hm. But what was the name
of the book that you were talking about? Just it's
called The Next Apocalypse and it's it's very good so far.

(29:54):
Chris Begley is the author. I think we're gonna have
them on next week. But um, yeah, I've I've found
it so far about a third of the way and
very good. Or someone check that out. Okay, who wants
to say we're back you just that's the intro. Now

(30:20):
that's the exit at it. You're welcome here we are
or so so Yeah, once we have like embraced our
understanding that you know, we belong to the land and
not vice and was therefore pattern ourselves and societies based
and its needs. Um, you know, that's when we get
to that place of bioregional regeneration, which is another key

(30:44):
concept of bioregionalism. And lastly, there's the concept of bioregional sensibility,
which was developed by Mitchell Thomas Shoe. It's about developing
the observational skills to observe the bioregional history, to develop
the concept or skills to juxtapose you know, the scale
of you know, the community and the region and the

(31:08):
bio ecosystem, the bioregion, all these different levels. Ability to
like think in terms of all of them. To develop
the imaginative faculties too. Really, I would say, play with
multiple landscapes and develop the compassion. Two, empathize with and

(31:29):
work with both local and global neighbors, not just local
and global human neighbors, but also you know, the flora
and fauna living next door. There are a lot of
different bioregional practices happening all of the world. Um I
didn't not that it started in North America, but I

(31:51):
noticed a lot of the big projects happening in like
South America. You know in Brazil, Sinaldo Ville, in Costa
Rica Regenerativa, to think Colombia Regenerativa and the Pluriversity in
the Himalayas as well, and many others. They're basically engaging
in efforts involving applied education, alternative agriculture systems, mapping, green

(32:15):
belt restoration. There's the you know, the green Belt project
in Africa, as well. And these are all efforts to
really understand and work with the bio regions that these
people inhabit. So just a few tips that I wanted
to end this off with you before we and things
off UM. I was trying to link um the things

(32:40):
that I talked about in some way to what people
on the groups they are part of, the organizations, they're
part of, the communities, they are part of can do
you know, as an action to strengthen their resilience or
to develop you know, autonomy. Right in this case, it
is the strength and resilience and also to develop the

(33:03):
vitality of the bio region you inhabit. So, first of all,
I think it's important that we learn as much as
we can about our areas and learn especially through action,
whether it be through cleanups, you know, observing the space

(33:24):
around you, whether it be through observing weather patterns, UM
better be through looking at the we're on hikes and
looking at the way that the temperature changes and the
texture of the soil changes as you go up and
down in um altitude. I think it's also important to

(33:46):
try to get involved with actions too um restore natural
features and to understand the police that those natural features
have in the broader bio region. Of course, there are
lots of sustainable projects happening all over the world. You know,
if they aren't any in your area, UM be the

(34:08):
change you want to see. Start one, make it happen,
and really also, I would say, find ways to link
projects for environmental sustainability and restoration with projects for human humancipation.
Find ways to like support access to you know, basic
human needs within your locality. To find ways to sort

(34:31):
of because when we speak of bioregions and you know,
living within our bioregions and so on and so forth,
that's all well and good. But if, for example, your
region has to import whole bunch of food all the
time to support the population, I think there needs to
be ways to um decrease that sort of import and

(34:55):
to find ways to um live sustainably with in the area.
Raise awareness of course as well, um about bioregional thinking, systems, thinking,
social ecological thinking, and yeah, just get to work anti work,
work for figuring these structures of more horizontal bi originally

(35:19):
ethical and sustainable way of life. And of course disrupt
the projects that getting away of those schools. And I
see that as tentatively as I can to avoid legal trouble.
That's it. Take care of everyone and be kind everything piece.

(35:43):
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