Bosnia and the Path to Genocide Part 2

Part 2 of our interview with Arnesa Kustura in which we discuss the current situation in Bosnia and the danger that it poses

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:04):
What could it could happen? Here a podcast about bad
things happening and how they can continue to happen if
you don't stop them. I'm your host, Christopher Wong, and
today we're doing part two of the interview with genocide
expert Arness Acustra, focusing on the absolutely horrifying things that
have been happening in Bosnia recently. Is even if you
hope you enjoy, can you can you give an explanation

(00:26):
of what's happened in the last couple of weeks because
it's terrifying and I don't think enough people are talking
about it. Yeah, I mean, yeah, So that's where are
we now? Uh, you know, I'm just going to talk
briefly about the date and agreement because I think, yeah, yeah,
the audience speeds to understand what the dating agreement is,

(00:48):
and I was going to talk about it earlier, but
I went off on the tangent, So my apologies. UM,
so obviously you know where the war is happening, The
genocide is happening, um Stravens. The worst of the genocide happens,
you know, eight thousand people are killed in just a
matter of a few weeks, few days. Really, Um, the

(01:12):
international community does not act at that time. Um, towards
the end of the year, another attack happens, since Saraabo
and Marcalis civilians are once again targeted waiting for bread fruit.
I think it was humanitarian aid at the market, and
that that's kind of when the international community starts to

(01:33):
open their eyes a bit and negotiations start and not
to borry with the details of nogeotiation process was absolutely
ridiculous and every single time to discussed it, it was
about splitting Bosia down ethnic lines, and that's ultimately what
happened with the Dating Agreement. Yes, peace quote unquote peace

(01:55):
was achieved, but the Data Agreement mandated so that there
would be a three member presidency. So instead of having
one president, we would have a three member presidency. It's
a rotating presidency. There would be a Croat representative, a
Bosnia representative, and a Server representative. That also means that

(02:18):
there's no representatives for anyone who's another, whether it's the
identified Yugoslav, Roma, Jewish, Bosnian but not Boshnak like they
you know, it's just there, there's no space for the
other in this constitution. With the State in Peace agreement,
but that's for another day. Um. They also split the
country down by ethnic lines. So all of those genocides

(02:41):
and ethnic cleansing that the Serbs had just been committing
all over eastern Bosnia up in the north, um, you know,
basically the international community said, good job, here's your own
territory that you ethnically cleanse. UM. So they split the
country down, you know, these ethnic lins and uh, you know,

(03:03):
the war stops. And then now we have to sort
of contend with this you know, peace agreement with the
new constitution. We we get this um called the OHR
Office of the High Representative. The High Representative is basically
a person who holds the highest power in the country.
They're not a Bosnian. They're actually kind of um, they're

(03:27):
put in place there by the international community. So the
o HR kind of you know, comes and breaks us
up when we're squabbling over issues. And this has been
anything from things like the flag, like the new flag
of Bosnia, the flag of Bosnia that was the flag

(03:48):
of Bosnia had to sort of be a place because
the OHR deems that it would be you know offensive
to the Serbs or the Croats. Um. And the same
thing with like the national anthem, so hold a lot
of power. Now just recently we switched a hitch our representatives,
so we have a new high representative. Before it was

(04:11):
Valentinianscope and his final kind of part of his you know,
time as the High Representative was to enact a law
against genocide denialism, which the Bosnians have really been campaigning
for for years because you know, um, I think in
your birthplace, in the place where the worst crime ever

(04:33):
could you know happen to you, happen to you, where
you know, fifty women were raped, a hundred thousand people
were killed, Um, six hundred plus mass graves were you know,
dug up to hide the crimes and the massacres. People
want to be able to you know, know the truth

(04:55):
and and and and be feel safe with the truth.
So the genocide denial it is, the law was good.
But this is kind of when things started to you know,
shift a bit, because I think Dotta came out Melana Dote,
who is currently the Serb member of the Presidency who
controls the Bublical Subsca, which is the entity where that's

(05:15):
considered the Serb entity, but Bosniacs also lived there as well. Um,
he came out and he said, well, if they passed
the genocide denialism law, we're going to succeed within eight days.
And obviously that didn't happen months ago. And here's here's
the thing, Um, Milanid's Doteck has been threatening succession for

(05:36):
years now. This is not anything new. What is new
is the fact that this time he seems to talk
about not just talk and threaten about succeeding, but actually
has started to kind of drop up the papers and
not a not to legally succeed, which he's not allowed

(06:00):
due to the date and agreement. Um, but he is.
He has run up the papers to start pulling out
of all the national level. So you know, Bosnia is
the country Republican subscribes and entity. The federation is an entity,
but both of them are accountable to the national sort
of state level institutions. He's basically at this point, you know,

(06:22):
being saying, I'm gonna republica subscribe deserve We're leaving, like
we're we're gonna form our own army. Yeah, we're gonna
pull out all all the Bosnian state institutions. Um, we're
gonna have serve only, you know, serve only courts serve only.
Lawyers serve only. Justices serve only I don't know, passport, whatever,

(06:45):
control serve basically anything that was at a national level,
whether that's like a healthcare institution or like, I don't know,
procurement for supplies for the office. They're gonna have it
as like serve only. Obviously, I think the danger is
right there. So only where have we heard that before?

(07:06):
We heard that nineties and the biggest sort of red
flag has really been this thing about them forming that
a publican Scott Army, and they're not even talking about
forming a new army. They he specifically stated the words
reforming that republic of Scott Army. Now, the Republican of
Scott Army, you know, was led by Kara In. These

(07:29):
are the same people that put girls as young as
ten and twelve years old into rape camps, that killed
babies as old as you know a few months, that
killed um, you know, elderly women as old as a
hundred years old. You know, these these were the guys
that were going village to village, city to city, killing, torturing,

(07:53):
bombing the hell out of sorry about These were the
guys that you know, would throw like three thousand to
four thousand mortar shells on Sorrymo and snip it. I
don't even know how many times, like tens of thousand
times per day. It's just these are the bad guys. Basically.
Um So, I think there's an alarm right now going

(08:16):
in Bosia, and it is the reason why so many
of us are quite worried, quite frightened, because on one hand,
he has threatened, he has made you know, Donic has
made plenty of for us before. But on the other hand,
in prior times, the international community has somewhat gotten involved.

(08:36):
You know, the US has sanctioned him, the UK has
scolded him, the EU has said, like, you gotta chill
out otherwise you know, Sorbiet doesn't get into the EU.
You know, there's there's always been some sort of I
don't know influence there, the oh Ars influence as well.
But in recent years, the international community has not stood

(09:01):
by its responsibility to the date agreement. I mean, here's
the thing. They implemented this agreement. They made it so
that we the Bosnians, have to abide by it, but
they also have a responsibility to ensure that it is
actually being upheld and that they're doing their jobs in

(09:22):
importance with the international like with the Date and Agreement,
so you know, the date and Agreement was very kind
of specific that it was one a temporary solution and
to the international community was to work on finding a
more permanent solution that will bring about you know, actual
sort of reconciliation and justice and all of these things.

(09:44):
But they didn't. They you know, they've left sort of
bossing it to kind of live up on its own,
um and and now they're not really doing much. I mean,
the EU is the U s they're doing their typical
thing of strongly worded open letters UM and Dottic seems
less afraid than ever before. He seems very brash. I mean,

(10:06):
he is a fool and a half and an ultra nationalists,
but right now I feel like he has so much confidence,
and I think he also knows that, like the US
and the EU have so many bigger problems to worry
about rather than Bosnia, and so we're just out a
priority so he can play around with it. And then
we're also you know, seeing like the Secretary of State

(10:29):
Matthew Palmer hanging out with him. The day after this,
man openly stated on national television that he is reforming
and they're being very cozy and very friendly and stuff
like that. And here's the thing. I've never been really
a big believer on the international community, because, come on,
like I have him, the experience speaks for itself. I've

(10:53):
already lived lived their help and I'm like, no, thanks,
you stay away. But I don't live in that world.
I live in a world where, you know, I'm from
a small country that is unfortunately very dependent on outsiders
and on the international community. So while I would love

(11:14):
to say, well, fuck the EU, fuck the US, we
don't need them, the reality is that we do need them.
We do need them to do their jobs, and because
if they don't, I am really worried that the situation
is going to continue to escalate further and further. And
this appeasement of Dotty, especially in the last several years,

(11:37):
has gone on so much that at this point I
think you have to like start to wonder, like do
these does the international community, you know, even want peace
and stability in Bosnia or did they benefit from our
constant instability and what is their long term plan? But
that's kind of where we're at right now. I think

(11:58):
there there's you know, there's the people in in Bosleian
politics and activist circles right now who are calling on
US leadership or calling on EU leadership, and there's a
lot of oh, no, the EU sucks, the US will
help us, the U s sucks, the EU will help us.
Turkey that's gonna help us. No, Turkey sucks. There's a
lot of like disagreement. Um. I think the reality is that,

(12:20):
oh my god, does it suck that we are in
this position where we have to rely on external sources
because once again we are feeling alone. Once again, we're
sort of being back into a corner, and once again
we're being threatened with a prospect of, you know, a
new war. And I think the reality is the minute,

(12:41):
the minute that he gives that green light for that
the Republican Army to be formed, there will be violence.
We've seen what happened before. We cannot afford to even
have one act of violence. We cannot afford to have
even one person injured, let alone die. Because these people

(13:03):
in Bosnia, on all sides, have suffered so unbelievably much.
They are exhausted, they are still bearing their leved once
twenty six years later, they still haven't you know, found
that peace. They're worried and scared for their future, and
they deserves so much more, they really really do. So
I think, you know, I'm I'm hoping and praying that um.

(13:27):
You know, we obviously continue talking about this issue, and
we try to pressure those people in power to you know,
calm the situation down. But the reality is that this
is going to be our future for as long as
they never exists, and until the Bosnian constitution is completely

(13:48):
reformed and dating is completely either thrown out or reformed
to actually allow for a you know code, actual multi
ethnic United country that's not broken up across ethnic you
know alignes, and it's not ethnically segregated, we're going to
continue being in the situation. So yes, for right now,

(14:10):
I think let's talk about this and let's kind of
pressure those powerful people, but really a long term it's
time to start thinking about ending the date and agreement,
and it's time to start thinking about actually building that
you know, multi ethnic, multi cultural, multi religious country that
we fought for. You know, you're saying like, okay, like

(14:41):
what what what is you know, what what is Europe
actually wants out of this and you know, I mean
I think it's pretty clear, Like okay, so you know
it the date and accords are like okay, we're just
gonna give all of the ether nationalists like their own fiefdom. Right,
It's like okay, here, here's your award for the genocide.
You get your like yeah, and I think you know,
like that's that's that's that's that's a very classical you

(15:04):
know that that that's what Europeans do, Right. It's like, yeah,
they come in the sport of the nationalists and it's like,
you know, they don't want this, like they don't actually
want like if a functioning multi ethnic, multiracial society because
you know, oh oh the horror weight hold on, what
if other people look at that and go, wait, why

(15:25):
why do we have Like yeah, I think that I
don't know. I think you see this both you know,
back back and what they were originally doing in the nineties,
and you know, they come in later and they're like, oh, hey,
look we're heroes, we uh helped them do the genocide
and then kind of sort of did something maybe later,

(15:46):
and I think like, yeah, I don't know, just the
possibility of that happening again the possibility of it's just
being you know, this is like, oh, hey, we have Bosnia.
This this is where we do press tours for like
why the American Army is good and like fun anyone
else who actually lives there. Yeah, I mean, like, come on,
they're America. Like, let's be honest here, Like I'm not

(16:07):
saying they're all powerful entity, but what I am saying
is that if they really wanted to, the people who
are in power would not be in power, right, Like,
but these people, people like Dotty, people like Dragon Chovich,
who is the Croatian at No nationalist leader who is also,
by the way, directly involved in this mess. And and

(16:30):
once again we're seeing that thing of the nineties of
you know, Croatia and Serbia want to split Bosnia up
and you know, break it for themselves. Basically, Um, that's
you know, it's it's just now instead of Ryan Tujman
and Looshevich, it's now Chovich and uh, you know Dotty.
I talk about Dottic a lot more because I think
he's a more immediate threat, but it's important that we

(16:52):
don't forget that Bosnia is also facing the Croatian threat
as well. Um and you know. But but I think
about it this way. I know for a fact that
if these people did not benefit the system somehow, they
would not actually be in power. But they do. They
do benefit them and I think you know, you know,

(17:12):
Madain Albright called mil Dot a breath of fresh air
um in you know, the nineties when he came to
power and then and now here we are, you know,
um Dots threatening war and threatening succession and talking about
serve only you know, spaces and serve only armies and

(17:33):
it's just it's exhaust thing. But yeah, it's it's it's
also funny. It is funny when you think about it,
because the reality is that it doesn't it never had
to be like this, and it doesn't have to feel
like this in the future either. But unfortunately, it will
continue to be like this because that's just you know,

(17:56):
what the powerful want, like what those actually have some
power want. And that's the thing that sucks because when
you you know, I feel like I'm starting to sound conspirator,
but I'm not. Um. You know, when you when you
think about like Europe overall and how they looked at Bosnia,
I think for the last you know, hundred years, um

(18:18):
and their policy towards Bosnia. It's really difficult for me
to kind of be filled with any sort of confidence
about what their plans are, you know. Yeah, I mean
it's it's it's Europe in the United States, two countries
that historically have never done anything bad, have never done
any genocides and have never yeah, just absolutely annihilated countries. Yeah, yeah,

(18:44):
I mean, it's just, you know, they're the good guys. So,
like you said, you know, Bosnians, there are so much
as like this press store for you know, these politicians
to come and talk about why we're such a great
example of the peace process when we're really we're not,
you know, And the thing is so you know, they'll
come on and they'll say, well, while Dayton wasn't perfect,
it was the best solution at the time. And it's

(19:05):
like it was, it was not, you know, but but
they have convinced that themselves that this was like a
win for intervention and win for the international community. Now,
don't get me wrong, I alongside everyone I know, is
extremely happy that the war ended and that the genocide ended.

(19:28):
Um And I think until you're in that position of
growing up in the midst of you know, all these
bombs and murders and tortures all around you, and you know,
the only style do you ever hear are the sounds
of bombs and mortars falling and sniper shooting at you.
You won't really know how it feels when that finally
stops and when you have some peace, and how difficult

(19:53):
um it can be to think about obviously any future
sort of prospects of war UM. And I think that's
that also is a is a contributing factor to the
overall instability of Closingia because for twenty six years now,
our policy as a people but as a country as well,
has been as long as there's no shooting, which is

(20:17):
not a sound policy because you know, settling for the
bare minimum is not helping any of us. Our youths
are leaving in observed absurd amounts to Germany, to Austria,
to the United States, people are struggling for for jobs,
people are struggling to bind food. You know, all of
these things um, on top of the threat of war

(20:40):
and violence and conflicts. So it's just it's not a
sound policy. And I'm just hoping, um, it will change
eventually somehow. I mean, I'm going to keep doing my part,
which is, you know, yelling and yelling at people in
in there on Twitter and in person and pressuring them
to do the right thing and to obviously talk about this.

(21:01):
But um, yeah, I just feel like we have such
a long, long, long, long road ahead of us. And um,
you know, peace is a process. It's a process. So
I think where just at the beginning of that process. Yeah,
so much more to do, I think. I think that's

(21:32):
a good place to end on the realization that Yeah,
I mean, if if if there's no fundamental change in
the structures and in the forces and in the politics
that created a war, that created genocide, like it's going
to happen again. Yeah, and so you you you have

(21:52):
to actually change it. You can't just sort of put
this band aid on it and put it in stasis
and just leave all the structures intact. You have to
now you you have to knock them over before you
can build something else. Yeah. Absolutely, yeah, nessa think, thank
you so much for talking with me. Um, where can
people find you? And what books do you want to read?
Because as as as we've said over and over again

(22:15):
on this podcast, do not get your information from podcast,
actually read books to think you need what you need
to do. UM, yeah, well if you obviously, I know
our audience can't see yet. But here's my little one
of my little selections of books on Bosnia. UM. Obviously,
people can find me on Twitter, um, you know, type

(22:35):
in my name A R N E s A. But
my at is at our ore R R E s
s A. Yeah. Twitter is probably the best place. But
also I have a book out so if people want
to read it. It is about the Bosnian genocide UM,
and it is based on real life experiences of my
family and friends. It's called Letters from Diaspora. It's more

(22:59):
so the emotional UM side of things. But if you
want to learn about the conflict from a leftist perspective,
I always recommend UM. And I don't know where it's
going out, but I always recommend UM Bosnia, Kosova and
Yugoslavia by Mike Kardadigis UM. It's the Marxist perspective on

(23:27):
the breakup of Yugoslavia. UM. Additionally, I have a pdf
on my Twitter of tons of books. So if you
want to learn more about Yugoslavia, about Islam and the Balkans,
about the history of Bosnia, about the war Jetta side.
Feel free to shoot me a d M. I have

(23:48):
a handy little guide that I hand out constantly. Two people. Um,
and there's also a list of books on like my
website and stuff like that. Yeah, I think I can
post it. We can put a link to it in
the description. I've I've read some stuff there. It's very good.
You should read it. Thanks. I pry myself on really
good reading list depending on topic. Oh yeah, yeah, well Vanessa,

(24:13):
thank you again. And yeah, this this has when it
could happen here? Find us that it could happen here
pod on Twitter, Instagram. The rest of the show is
that we do are You can find it at the
cool Zone on the same places and yeah, oh boy
genocide bad hope there's no more work to stop them.

(24:38):
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