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September 7, 2021 49 mins

We talk with folks from the Defend the Atlanta Forest Coalition about the city’s ongoing efforts to tear down 300 acres of forest to build a massive police trading facility.

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Episode Transcript

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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Helloo the SISS it could happen here daily. I'm Garrison,
and today we have a special emergency release episode. I
know a lot of news has happened in the past week,
and we will be covering that later on in this week,
but this episode is going to relate to some current
events happening today as of the release date of this episode,

(00:25):
and stuff that could be affected in the future. So
I had the opportunity last Thursday to interview some people
working with the Defend the Atlanta Forest Coalition. It's a
coalition of activists who are working to prevent the deforestation
project going on in Southeast Atlanta. Now, in the interview,
they mentioned some actions on Friday that have already happened.

(00:46):
As of recording, they did not happen, so they mentioned
those as actions coming up. But there's also actions coming
up on Tuesday, September seven, because that's also the day
that the city Council is going to vote whether to
can tinue with the deforestation project or not. So this Tuesday,
there's gonna be actions that if you're in Atlanta, you

(01:06):
can be a part of that gets talked about in
the episode. So just just a heads up for timelines
in case that gets a little confusing. Anyways, Uh, that's
enough of me talking. So here is the interview with
people from the Defend the Atlanta Forest Coalition. Hello, and welcome.
Today we are going to be interviewing some people who

(01:26):
are working with and help with the Atlanta Forest Defense
project that is ongoing. UM. If you're unfamiliar with this,
we'll learn about it here in the interview. UM. But
first off, I have Chris here to help to help
me today, and I'd like to introduce the people we're
talking with. Jamalti one of the start Yeah. So actually

(01:49):
my name is jamal um Working. I'm an organizer with
Community Movement Builders. We do our main goal of building
self sustainable black communities. UM. We have a base or
a place based organization, at least for the Atlanta chapter
in the Pittsburgh neighborhood of Atlanta. We do have different
chapters across the country, all doing place based work in
their respective areas. UM. We are we we've gotten onto

(02:12):
this coalition UM with Atlanta Forest Defense. But particularly because
with this particular area, you know, it's uh, while they're
just showing three eight acres of land, what the the
purpose of doing it is to UM build a mock
cops city, right, It's a mock city of of Atlanta,

(02:33):
in order to essentially practice militarized warfare on the Atlanta's
residents and so. UM. While you know, all of us
are extremely concerned about the deforestation that's happening, the other
layer of of what we're what we're dealing with is
also an immediate threat to particularly the black communities UM
in Atlanta. The point working class black communities here in Atlanta. Yeah, hey,

(02:57):
thanks for having me on. I'm Chassa. I I'm one
of the help coordinators of the Atlanta chapter of the
Sunrise Movement, which is a movement of young people working
to stop climate change and create good jobs in the process. UM.
I think that you draw said it really well and
that UM this issue with forced defense, with stopping UM

(03:18):
this facility from being built, it really is. UM. It
really does have two prongs. It's an issue very uniquely
at the intersection of racial and environmental justice because on
one hand, it's an expansion of policing in a city
that does not need more police, and on the other hand,
it is systematic of unfettered capitalism and greed and exploitation

(03:40):
that causes all this environmental devastation. So I'm really excited.
I think we have two really good prongs of a
um of the of the conversation and the argument against
this ordinance. Yeah, and I think a lot of people
don't realize how like what I like, Usually when I
think of Atlanta, I don't think of as as a

(04:00):
very like forest dense city. Um, but it absolutely is.
Um that's just not something that really gets highlighted a
lot nationally, is how how green Atlanta really really is.
And um, you guys want to talk about I've I've
never been to Atlanta. Do I want to talk about
kind of how like the city is like laid out
and all of like you know, how how the forest

(04:23):
intersects with with the city. Yeah. Absolutely so, I mean, yeah,
Atlanta is essentially a city that was built in the
middle of a forest. Like I live. I live in
the Pittsburgh neighborhood in Atlanta, and um, literally it's you know, trees,
green greenery all over the place. Um. I went, I
come home, I'll see on my screen door there's a
frog that's just chilling there. Um. So it's like it's

(04:45):
not your typical like urban city in a in a
sense of what a lot of people think of, like
particularly think of like cities in the northeast. UM. But
it really is just a city in the middle of
a forest. UM. And I think it also ties in
like again I'm talking about environmental racism, UM, intersecting with

(05:05):
you know, well talking about environmental racism period, right and deforestation. UM.
What we see is that because it's in the middle
of a forest, and what does the forest do. It
protects us from flooding. It protects and protects us from
all all these different natural disasters that we're seeing across
the world, across our country right now, for example, but
even locally which at Lanta didn't get hit very hard

(05:26):
by the you know, the hurricanes, but anytime it rains,
my uh, like my block floods, right because this because um,
you know, the forest has been removed to be able
to to make way for you know, different types of
infrastructure being built. From my perspective, it's been like a
lot of changes to Atlanta's kind of whole economy in

(05:49):
a in a lot of ways to pass like ten
fifteen years UM. Specifically with the film industry moving into
into Georgia and Atlanta specifically in the past like twin
any and this this does intersect with with what's going on,
does any does anyone want to speak on that? I
would say that, Um, you know, it's really good to
note that Atlanta has the most amount of tree coverage

(06:14):
out of any major metropolitan area in the United States.
Oh wow, I didn't I didn't know that either. And
when we say city in a forest, we mean city
in a forest. Yeah, that's definitely true. And we we
have green space we want to preserve it. But um,
the the forest Defense has also been highlighting like the
ties between policing and corporate elites and corporate CEOs and

(06:38):
people who want to move in and push development projects,
and something similar is happening, um black Claw studios. Like
you said, the expansion of like the media industry and
all of that into Atlanta, it leads to gentrification of communities.
Really really recently, Atlanta just became um just very I think,

(06:59):
like in the last like a few weeks, we just
got the data that said that Atlanta isn't the majority
black city anymore. And that's because black lawmakers and lawmakers
in the city have been making these decisions in conjunction
with corporations and developers that pushed people out of their homes,
under the streets and out of the city. So it's
a really big problem that our demographics have changed a

(07:21):
lot in the last TenTen seeing here is because of
that in Cops City, like that that this development project
is very reminiscent of all of this, And just to
piggyback off of that, I think it's extremely important for
us to recognize the connections between all these things. Right this,
like Cops City is a perfect blend of UM environmental

(07:42):
justice issues, uh, just flat out racism, police brutality, and
also gentrification. Right, it's not a it's not a mistake
that they're building this Cops City right at this moment
when UM Atlanta is also becoming for the first time
and I don't know how many decades, UH non no
longer majority black city because neighborhoods like Pittsburgh were located

(08:04):
out of and all across Southwest and West Atlanta have
becoming more like the black people have been being displaced
from the from our communities, right. UM. So a perfect
example is that with my organization, Community Movement Builders, we
UH purchased. We've we've been doing work in the Pittsburg
neighborhood for a while, but we purchased a community house
in the neighborhood about six years ago. Right at that point,

(08:26):
we purchased the house for fifty tho dollars. Right, UM,
Pittsburgh has been historically UH poor and working class community.
It was uh it was founded as a black community,
which is different from a lot of other other neighbors
in Atlanta. Was founded as a black community from UH
freed Africans UM who we're trying to escape some of

(08:46):
the more rural areas of the South and found work
in Haven in the Pittsburgh neighborhood of Atlanta. And it's
been a poor and working class black community ever since.
But now UM, because of the gentrification has been going on.
How how has just sold maybe about a month and
a half ago, for seven hundred and fifty thousand dollars.
So the person's house at fifty thou dollars six years ago,

(09:07):
the house just sold UM just a few blocks away
from that house for seven fifty thousand dollars. Now it's
not every house is selling for that amount, but that
just shows you the rate of gentrification that's happening. And
then and we know that cops are on this necessary
part of being able to defer to displace people from
gentrifying communities. They play an integral role within gentrification. Yeah,

(09:28):
I'm just wondering, does any of you have anything like
even like anecdotal experience with like basically Marvel and Men,
tons of other industries like invading Atlanta. How is that
like affected specifically, Like you already talked about how how
you know, increased the increase in the film industry and
other things. Has you know, has made more gentrification? But like,
how has that even affected just like like other types
of stuff, including like policing, Like has has this type

(09:51):
of like growth um affected people or people you know
in in other ways? Yeah? Absolutely so. I think a
lot of this kind of got I won't say it
got started, but a lot of it went even uh
you know, escalated when Tyler Perry Studio opened up in
East Point Um and a lot of people, you know,
we're praising it's like, oh look at this, uh you know,

(10:13):
it's a black man. I was able to move down
and be able to start this thing within Hollywood. But no,
it's all that is one of the things that also
spurred the gentrification in East Point, which is you might
not be familiar with Atlanta, but East Point is like
literally right next to Atlanta, So it's a lot of
it's it's it's really close proximity. And so that also
spurs over to the gentrification here in the city as well. Um.

(10:35):
Property values have gone up since that point, even more. UM.
Even my tax bill has gone up a thousand dollars
a year per a year UM for the past like
three years, right, UM. So it's yeah, it's it's definitely
we definitely see the effects and you know, and just
talking to you know, we do, we do do a

(10:56):
lot of work around gentrification. UM. And I think this
is intend them with you know, because we have COVID
nineteen out here now, with the Vision moratorium which has
now been you know denied um by the Supreme Court. Um.
But even when there wasn't a Vision moratorium, there were
still people that were getting evicted from their homes. And
I think all of this in tandem when Atlanta specifically

(11:17):
has already been going through a gentrification crisis, and um
with COVID nineteen, where people have been losing jobs, left
and right or not been able to go to their
jobs that they've had um and look and having us
salaries cut. People have been hurting. And the response from
the city has not too been that has not been
to provide more resources to people. It's been too fund

(11:39):
cops city to be able to get more peace out.
Who are the ones that execute the actual evictions themselves?
And I think it all, it all, it all is
connected in that in that type of way. Yeah, I mean,
like I think if people don't know, like the reason
why so many filming projects have moved to Georgia in
the past decade and a half, it's because basically, UM,
Georgia instituted a pretty substantial tax cut for production companies

(12:01):
to film in Georgia, so they would they would like
not even just get a tax cut, but also at
tax credit you would actually get like you would actually
get money for filming in Georgia. UM. And theoretically, this, this,
this can be good things, right, this, this could strengthen
local film film industry and hire people who already in Georgia.
But in a lot of cases they are hiring a
lot of out of state workers to come in and

(12:23):
do these big productions. Um, including you know, Marvel and
and various other film studios. I think, uh, just looking
looking at something like it was in about in twenty
six there was they were supposed to have around like
um jobs created, um, but only of those went to
people actually living in Georgia. So there is job creation,

(12:44):
but it's a lot of people moving in from from
from people getting flowed in from like New York from
California two then, but both are taking the jobs in
in the city, but also they have to live there,
so they're also eating up housing. UM. And this housing
is getting paid for by big corporations, which is making
prices go up and up. And it's this kind of
cascading problem which is now you know, even even led

(13:06):
to this deforestation project. UM. You you've mentioned what the
deforestage project is and you've called it like a cops city, UM.
And I think this is this is an extremely fascinating,
um and horrifying like dystopia like idea of don't explain
like what they're actually trying to do with this, with
this section of force and what they're trying to build.

(13:28):
I do want to take a second and just kind
of make a point really quickly that I think is important. UM.
The Atlantic Police Foundation, which is basically the ther machine
that works with the Atlanta Police Department. UM, if you
look at their website, if you look at their goals,
if you look at their objectives, they always say and

(13:49):
purport UM that like, Hey, we're looking to protect the city.
We're looking to do all of these things. And I
think it's really interesting because they're also looking to expand
their police force as this cop City then would allow,
which would take about five years to develop, but is
still going to be a massive expansion of policing if
it were to be passed. Um, do you have these people,
you have these police for saying that we are looking

(14:11):
to expand the work that we do. We're looking to
hire more officers, We're looking to put more people on
the streets streets. And at the same time, you have
an eviction moratorium that is putting people on the street streets.
And it's just really interesting that their jobs and their
livelihood rely on the existence of poverty, in the existence
of crime in order to have in order to have

(14:34):
a need for more police, you need more people on
the streets. In order to have a need for more police,
you need more people whose doors need to be knocked
on to be told, hey, you're getting evicted, You're getting
pushed out of your home. So I think that is
very reminiscent of the fact that police do not protect
us because they're the existence of their jobs rely on
our poverty. Yeah, they're not. They're not actually trying to

(14:58):
help regular people who are living in Atlanta and trying
to make other people happy, who have a lot more
money and who have other other things that stay. Yeah. Absolutely,
and that definitely intersects with a lot of this stuff.
Another point to make is that who as sits on
the board of the Atlanta Police Foundation, right, It is
all of the CEOs of the big businesses that are

(15:22):
in the city of Atlanta. The CEO of Coca Cola,
the CEO of Chick fil A, the CEO of Home Depot,
all of these, the major corporations, the Fortune five, Fortune
one d for most of them, corporations that are that
run the city of Atlanta. The corporate elite are the
ones that are sitting that are on the board of
this of the Atlanta Police Foundation. Who are the ones

(15:43):
that are building this and are are funding this project
so that they can protect their property UM, and so
that they can expand the police force that and what
we know is that police doesn't don't protect people and
protect property UM, and they protect the corporate elite. So
I think all of those things are it comes full
circle as a great Michael Cosum of racial capitalism that

(16:05):
UM is exploiting uh, poor and working class black folks
in particular. Yeah, and if if people are unfamiliar, does
anyone want to explain what the what what the project

(16:28):
that the police are trying to build is And they're
I know they're teaming up with like different like prison
firms and stuff as well, like like what is what
is the actual project? Sure, so I can kind of
give a broader overview and wall if I miss anything,
if you want to add it in, that would be great. UM.
So basically they want to take UM ownership of three
hundred and eighty one acres of forested land in unincorporated

(16:49):
to Cobb County. UM. This land was once the old
Atlanta put Prison Farm. Before that it was Key Plantation,
and before that it belonged to the um Miss Scogee
Nation and it was stolen from them and then folks
were enslaved on it and then forced into unpaid labor
for prison work on it as well. So it's a
land with the very scarred history. What the APF wants

(17:11):
to do essentially is UM bulldoze a great deal of
it and then build this training facility and mocks city.
UM it's going to The plans currently include plans for
explosives testing and weapons testing and like all of that stuff,
and then UM, I think this is a good point

(17:32):
to make is that there have been a lot of
attempts to kind of placate the public on the facility.
So they say, oh, we're not going to destroy all
of the land. We're gonna do a hundred fifty acres,
or we're gonna get it where, We're gonna cut it
town to a hundred and twenty acres, or we'll leave
this part or um we'll create some green space as well,
and we'll have like a food farm as well. But
there was this really great environmental impact report that was

(17:54):
done that kind of showed that UM a lot of
the impacts that this would actually in terms of UM,
the runoff from all of those explosives testing and things
like that would um end up polluting the South River
and would pollute the very urban farm that they proposed
to exist on the land itself, so that food, that

(18:15):
those fish, all of that would become destroyed. And it's
really really, I think helpful to just point this out
as a really specific instance of environmental racism because the
people who are going to be affected by that are
people who lived there. And of course this is being
lived there, this is being built near marginalized communities, so
that's kind of what's happening. They want to, UM, I

(18:37):
live on Georgia type campus, just to give an example,
And this facility would be larger than that, or about
the size of that. This facility would be about the
size of UM Disneyland in California. UM it is huge.
It's a huge. Yeah, And I'm guessing they're they're They're
not going to be building there explosives and military testing

(18:58):
facility next to where all the rich people live. They're
not going to be like testing out bombs where all
of you know, the upper class people are. Of course not. Yeah,
people get saying Buckhead wants the facility, but they don't
want it in Buckhead. They wouldn't do it there. Of course.
It's not a mistake that UM all of like and
even with UH so, you know, with city council, people

(19:22):
who have gotten a little bit scared and nervous about
our past and our current um efforts again to be
able to raise awareness about this because the other part
of this is what isn't that it should be highlighted,
is that, you know, city council talks about how they're
trying to make this a more uh you know, they're
getting the input of people. All this was done before
organizers exposed it without anybody knowing, right there was no advertisement,

(19:46):
There's no like, no calls made or no in public
input about any of this happening until organizers started, you know,
blowing it up, and that's what's gotten them scared at
this point. But even and then now that people do
are aware of it, some a few certain in UH
city Countis members are saying, Okay, we're gonna backtrack a
little bit. Maybe you don't want it to be here
because of this forest we want. We might want to

(20:07):
put it in a different location, but it's important that
all those proposed locations. One, I think it's pretty much bullshit.
They're gonna build it there at that location. They've already
had the plans for it. But even if they were
to move, all those other proposed locations are all south
of anywhere. Anybody that lives or is from Atlanta, um
knows that south of I twenty is where all of

(20:27):
the black people live basically, and so and all of
the poor and working class people of Atlanta, uh in
the city live. So this is so it's it's a
so yes, they like just just like she was saying, right,
um Buckhead wants this, Midtown wants this. Um, the richest
areas of the city want this, but they don't want

(20:48):
it for them. They wanted to uh police, uh, poor
and working class people. Yeah, I mean like be even
beyond the disastrous en mental effects and building this giant
but tearing down forest and building this giant concrete structure
would have like it's just this is gonna and and

(21:09):
even beyond like the increased problems with gentrification. Just like
the further militarization of the police is like, this isn't
like a niche problem you gets talked about anymore. Like
this is like a widely and this is generally think
that's something that's talking that got talked about a lot.
Is how militarization of police is bad um. You know,
even for like more like softer liberals is something that

(21:30):
even they can like you know, say that they agree with.
Yet they're building this giant compound to make their police
like some like super like swat team, military tactical training unit. UM.
And Yeah, I think another point is that even if
wherever it's built anywhere like it, it shouldn't be built like,
we don't you don't need this in the first place

(21:52):
at all. You don't, you know, beyond the forest being
being you know, torn down, which is horrible, you don't
need this built anywhere, right, Like That's so like in
organizing against this, is is it kind of split up
in between protecting the forests and organizing against the facility
or or are these things kind of just so combined
that these struggles are still linked that there's really no no, no,

(22:15):
no difference between between the two. Yes. So I think
the initial coalition came pretty naturally because everybody that was
in the coalition UM, in one way or another, was
against this project. Right. We had folks that were more
so on the environmental side of things. We have folks
that were more so on the police brutality side, and

(22:35):
UM and the police abolition side of things. Um, however,
I think all of us have in some way or another,
you know, we have interests in all the all these
issues are all overlaying right. So the coalition formed because
even while we might have our specialized interests in different areas,
this particular project is one that was a microcosm of

(22:57):
so many different things that we could unite behind all
of these things to be able to find a coalition
to fight against it. Right. Um, And I think, uh,
to uh your point, Christopher, I think one thing that's
also really significant is that so my city council person
for his district twelve, Joyce Shepherd, Um, District twelve is

(23:21):
where Pittsburgh is, where Summerhill is, where several of poor
and black working class neighborhoods of Atlanta are located. There
are also the areas where they're the most gentrifying areas
of the city as well. And it's in in in
city Council District twelve. Joyce Shepherd. She is the person

(23:42):
who brought this proposal forward, right. She is over the
quote unquote public safety. Um, you know they ain't keeping
ship safe public safety? Um, you know commission And Um,
she brought this forward. And she has been since she's
been in office, she has been a even uh, she's

(24:06):
been a champion of gentrification, right, she's been a champion
of over policing as well. Um. And I think it's
it's a tie between even our city council or even
representation has in their interests of being able of of
gentrifying the city because that gives them more tax stars,
it gives them a way to be able to say
that they are decreasing their crime rates except and all

(24:27):
those all these different types of things when it's really
just dep deplacing poor folks. Um. And so I think
that's an important about talking about how this kind of
was established. That's an important topic to be able to address,
is that even and she's a black woman, right so
even um, you know, even how like when people when
when people might you think they might be representing your interests, Um,

(24:49):
when they get to be in these positions, we have
to recognize that they are not necessarily for the people. Yeah,
we we had this in Chicago too with lightfoot, just
like for selected and that immediately, like do you start
putting stops in the subways and swat teams are shooting
people and disaster. Yeah, And I would just add to that,
like this is like in terms of like the question

(25:10):
about the coalition and how these organizers and how these
organizations came together, It's it's been a little it's it's
been really interesting because there's, like, like Jamal said, there's
been so many groups that have come from all of
these different interests, whether it's environmental or abolitionists or UM
talking about um, you know, reimagining public safety and divesting
resources from policing. You have all these people from all

(25:32):
these different groups, and UM there was like there there
have been like different coalitions and different groups of people
working together and like co sponsoring each other on events.
And I have just seen that number grow so rapidly
and just and I think that comes from a fundamental
understanding that we're not fighting different fights. All of this

(25:54):
is intertwined. This is environmental justice is intersectional to racial justice,
which is inter sectional to economic justice, which is just
all indicative of, you know, the fight against unfettered greed
and exploitation and all of these things. So I think
that and I would say that to an extent, there
are more like quote unquote like moderate groups that I've seen,

(26:18):
like do things, or there have been groups who's kind
of whose hands have been tied a little bit and
kind of have been approaching the issue through an environmental
angle only to kind of avoid talking about polarizing topics
like policing. But um, I think that hopefully by having
coalitions like this one and by having conversations like this one,
we are getting people closer and closer to the understanding

(26:40):
that these are intersectional issues. These are issues that we
should all tackle together and in the future when stuff
like this happens. We're so much stronger when we work together.
Like I can list like fifteen or twenty different organizations
off the top of my head who are involved in
this fight in some way, and that wouldn't be possible
it was just the abolitionists or just being our mentalist.

(27:00):
Because it's it all ties together and as we do this,
as we're in this process, we learn from each other
and learned that these things are true. I wasn't and
I wasn't the like most well burst on gentrification and
how it works in the city of Atlanta because I
just moved here pretty recently, and like being able to
have these conversations and going out and canvassing and talking

(27:21):
to people and seeing what the streets look like and
seeing what different districts look like has like vactually expanded
my own knowledge of how all of this works, and
it's made me like it's it's made me a better
organizer and a more caring community member. So it's been
really cool to see all these people from all these
different backgrounds come together. And I think that, yeah, it's

(27:42):
just been really great. Yeah, because the effort to the
effort to save the forest um and prevent the construction
of the facility, because it is such a coalition effort.
It's it's multiple groups working together. How How is how
is the process of taking multiple organizations and having them

(28:03):
all work together on the same project, Because I know
that can in my experience watching this happen in other
cities that can be very difficult as getting different organizations
to work together. Um how how How? How have how
have people managed to to take all these different different
organizations with different backgrounds and get them to team up

(28:25):
for this shared cause? Um? I think it has been
difficult and there have been a lot of lessons and
experiences here because I mean, um community movement builders for example,
And while you can speak to this much better than
I can. Is a Black lead Black Front group that
operates in Atlanta, and there are other groups and other

(28:48):
people who are working on this who maybe aren't as
well versed as we need to be, And honestly, an
element of that is learning from each other and learning
to respect like who should be speaking on these issues
and when they should be speaking on these issues, and
what role each of us has to play. Um. I
think one thing that I would have liked to see

(29:08):
more is including, you know, the lower my scope Creep
tribe in indigenous groups in this effort a little bit more.
And I know, like we've been moving on like what
a hell of a timeline, and it's been development after development.
But I think that just like when we work in
coalition and we work on groups who have different theories
of change, when we work on groups have different ideologies

(29:29):
in different ways that they approach things, it's a really
good chance for those groups to kind of come together
and do what they do best, play to their strengths,
but also challenge their own ideologies and their own perceptions
of the world. And I've seen a lot of that
in this space. And I feel like Jamal can speak
to this really well too, probably better than I can
in some places. No, I'll just say plus one to
all of that. UM. I think that it's definitely learning

(29:52):
curve UM and any kind of coalition working working with
other organizations is definitely learning curve UM, and we are
learning from each other to be able to build. But
I think it's also important that UM. Having that coalition
is important because we pull from even from like we
talked about public input, right or we talked about a
rally that we're having, We're pulling from several different communities.

(30:13):
We're pulling from several different areas of people who have
different interests, who can all make the event, the central event,
that much better than that much stronger. So we can
make so we can push, for example, a postponement of
the vote for three weeks, which has been unprecedented in Atlanta,
particularly for something that has to do with policing, right UM.
So I think that there was lessons learned within coalition

(30:34):
building UM that are always going to be challenges. But
I think the other and I think that what we
also learned is that it's important that you know, we
come into this work in the particular lane of this
work right. UM. You know, community builders might have had
particular I have a lot of experience working with UM
anti police violence, right, UM, we don't have a whole
lot of experience with environmental justice or environmental UM issues

(31:01):
or advocacy UM in that same type of way, So
we might not be tapped in or even equipped to
be able to have those types of conversations with people. UM.
But we also know, but we're also a place based
organization in the area, so that we also have a
lot of experience talking to people in our community, knowing
to the issues that are in our community and being
able to uh make folks or have folks be aware

(31:22):
of what's going on that affects their lives. So like,
a lot of this I think is also people bringing
in that information UM for lack of a better term,
staying in their lane for what it is, at their
expertise is so that they can contribute their expertise to
uh the coalition to be able to keep on building
that out right, Yeah, what has the fight looked like
so far? Like, well, what kind of organizing has been

(31:44):
done with this goal in mind the past few months
or even longer. A lot of things actually, UM, we
are doing a lot of things this weekend. In particular,
UM CMB is holding a rally in front of Coca
Cola headquarters on Friday. Sunrise is doing a people's march

(32:07):
UM on Freedom Park Trail UM just to kind of
attract pedestrian attention. There are going to be banner drops
around the city and the art has played a critical
role in all of this work. UM Metro Atlanta ds
A has been running canvases every weekend for the last
three months. UM we held phone banks. We held UM

(32:29):
a really powerful people's town hall where basically we actually
invited people up to the mic and UM said, you
have two minutes tell us what your opinion is on
cop city and your community and how you feel about it.
Because city Council, the APF they're not doing it, so
we're going to give you the space to do that.
And that was live streamed and made available. UM. We

(32:50):
had UM the Spanish speaking community participated through an organization
called bod latin X, who did a bilingual panel with
captioning to kind of educate folks on the issue. So
a lot of it has just been going and just
physically talking to people, having conversations and then just taking
action in all these really powerful ways, and a lot

(33:11):
of that is culminating, I feel this weekend. But yeah, absolutely,
and I think all of that has been like the
main focus of all of this, and all of that
has been built off of just talking to people. At
the end of the day, organizing to me is recognizing
power structures talking but building people power and building uh
uh ways for bringing the fight back to the masses. Right. Um.

(33:37):
So even like right before this call, uh CMB was
out flying UM at modest stations at the UM, the
au c UM and other locations to make sure that
people are aware that like this is happening. Um. And
because that's the other thing, A lot of people, UM,
A lot more people know about it now, but particularly
when it first was coming out in the end. UM

(33:58):
even now some people don't aren't even aware of what's
going on, but um, like it's been their biggest defense
has been uh people not knowing about this, about this
ordinance trying to be passed and trying to do it
in under the veil of darkness. And the more we're
able to expose them, the more we're able to get it,

(34:20):
the higher likelihood we are able to stop it, um
and so um. I think, yeah, it's extremely important that
when we're when we're talking about any type of organizing,
we have to bring it back to the people and
making sure that we're uh, you know, you know, really
living up to the words like all power to the people.

(34:50):
Have you seen any effects so far from the order?
I know it's it's always difficult to gauge the effectiveness
of any activistsm Um, but have have you seen any
changes either? And like I know you mentioned like perception
and then people being aware of this project, but have
you seen anything else happen um, whether on like whether

(35:10):
you know through the like legislative process or just through
like coverage. Yeah, Like what what's going to get? So far?
The major the major win is the is the postponement
in the vote, Like this was supposed to be voted
and passed. It was going to be passed three weeks ago,
right and for for them to delay it and frankly
they even said it they delayed it because they were like,

(35:32):
we're getting too much negative pressure. We want to get
we want to do more public opinion. Basically, they want
to put more propaganda out there for the police, um,
and try to have another vote when we think that
we can get more people on our side, because this
is an election season for Atlanta too, so a lot
of them might worry about their seats and they know
that we made a lot of noise about it, and
then we've got a lot of news coverage about it.

(35:52):
We've got a lot of people talking about this, and
so at this stage they're afraid that, you know, they
couldn't do this under the little darkness, and so now
people know about it in our upset about it. So
I think that in of itself, that's again, this is
the first time this is and this has happened in
the city of Atlanta um period where the city Council
has been scared based off of community based organizing, particularly

(36:16):
when it has to come to anything that has to
do with policing. Atlanta is the most surveiled city in
the country right um our police force. People talk about
it being the Black Mecca. People talk about it being,
you know, a black haven for a black Hollywood, a
black haven for black folks. It is the most surveiled
place in the in the in the country and city
in the country. And it's also and we are nowhere

(36:38):
close to being a stranger to police brutality and police killings. UM,
and we've seen that. UM. You know, I can name
a list of names just like uh that you know
have been murdered by the police just in the past
three years. Right, So yeah, I think that, I mean,
I think an organizer joker, an organizer question at this

(37:01):
point where people who have been working on this is
like where were you August sixteenth? Where were you? And
it happened when the vote was actually pushed because that
demonstrated a huge win for the people. It was like,
you know, organizers in Atlanta and this community and this
like these outcries and these like just these conversations and

(37:21):
this this anger at all culminated in this beautiful moment
where they said, like we can't pass this right now,
like we just actually can't do it. For me, I
was at a book club meeting and I saw on
Twitter and my brain was fuzzy for the next hour
because that that had never happened before and it was
just it was beautiful and yeah, and just like having

(37:44):
these conversations is just another like impact. The story went national. Um,
there was an article for The Intercept having conversations like
this one and just like and just being able to
tie this to like, like I've said a few times
during this during this conversation, just that that culture of
that culture that that like okayness with extraction and exploitation

(38:08):
of land and resources and people. And being able to
take this story national and take this story to other
places and say like, this is what happens in communities,
look into your own and see if it's happening there.
Like that is so inspiring that that's what builds movements.
So that was a really powerful one. Yeah, I think

(38:28):
something like having having that result is incredibly rare for
something like this, right, Like that is that's not something
that happens often, and that should be celebrated based on
what what you've been able to do so far. Um,
what is the fighting look like going forward in the
next and the next few weeks? Um? Is there a

(38:49):
date that they're planning to vote again already or is
that still kind of up in the air. Yeah, so
they're voting in on Tuesday, right, So, Um, that's why
you know, we're still fighting all the way up till
the end. Um. I think that at the end of
the day, Um, we have to recognize that, uh, you know,

(39:09):
pressure Campaigns like this are important. We have to be
able to do them, but we also have to be
able to put our bodies on the line to be
able to just if if the city council, because again,
this isn't up to a vote of the people. This
is a vote of corporate interests that are in city
council members who are tied to corporate interests, so they
ultimately can still vote even the people for it, even
if the people don't want this to happen, right, And

(39:31):
so I think it also has to be even after
the vote that fight does. Let's say, if it does pass, right,
we're hoping that doesn't, But if it does pass, that
means that the fight doesn't end at that point. That
means that are that that the onus is then on
the people for us to organize even more because that
means we mean bodies on the line. That means that
we have to be able to physically say you're not
building this ship period um. And that's the next step

(39:52):
in the campaign. I'm speaking, this is speaking for you know,
myself at this point. I can't speak for the whole
coalition on this on this pace, but I think of
us are in the same are on the same boat
that like, after this vote, we still are in this fight,
whether whatever they regardless of what the outcome is. And
there's a lot of different avenues in terms of like
direct action and land offense and working more with indigenous

(40:14):
communities on the issue, and lawsuits on the environmental angle,
and even just the city council angle of just voting
out everybody who voted yes. And there's there's a lot
of different ways to take action after this. It just
depends on the results of the vote that is happening
on Tuesday. Yeah, yeah, that will be. Yeah, that's it's

(40:35):
it's as you guys said that it was going to be,
uh a very serious turning point in figuring out what
to do next. Um let's let's for a change, let's
be optimistic as just a fun practice that might us
What if um magically were not not magically because you

(40:56):
put a lot of a lot of hard work, but
like what if they um do vote no and the
and they and they don't, they don't build this projects?
Do you see any future for like the coalition, like
like like having having all these groups work together. Do
you see you taking up any other kind of projects?
Because like you know, getting a network like this is
very UM, it's very useful and unique, UM and as

(41:20):
you know, at times, at times very difficult. Do you
see any other kind of organizing potential for having this
interconnected kind of group of people. I honestly can't see
a world where we don't continue to have these conversations
and we don't continue to work together, and we don't
continue to tap into this like beautiful system of collective

(41:43):
care because honestly, we've it's felt like rushing to the
finish for the last three months. But like after we're
like focused on a particular campaign or particular issue, there's
gonna be other things to worry about. But also I'm
really hoping personally that we're going to be able to
take some time to slow down and process and have
conversation aations to talk about what just supporting each other
actually mean, what just supporting people in like a localized,

(42:05):
substantive intersectional manner actually look like. So my hope and
my wish and my UM goal is is absolutely yes, UM,
I hope that will continue to work together and in
lots of different ways, on lots of different projects, because
we don't really know what what at least for Sunrise.
We don't really know what we're going to focus on next,

(42:27):
but um, there's definitely a lot of work to do.
And I think just like what's really been powerful about
this many people coming together and this demonstration of people
power is that we're starting to shift the narrative, the
narrative that protection and um control equal safety and understanding
what safety actually means. And it's not just Sunrise and

(42:50):
Community with It builders in d s A and like
a couple of environmental groups. It's groups that have been
doing mutual aid work, groups that have been um directly
on the ground, like and and groups that have been
you know, working and fighting in in all of these
like tangible ways to just get people access to food
and water and transportation and the things that we actually need.

(43:14):
So I think that in terms of like actually shifting
the narrative and diverting resources to where they need to
be diverted, coalitions are a powerful tool, and I hope
we'll continue to use them. Yeah. Second to to all that,
I mean, I think that while we each have our
respective work, and I speak for CNB, we are Black
Radical Organization is dedicated to the Liberated Zone theory. Right

(43:36):
now are our focus is organizing within the Pittsburgh neighborhood
of Atlanta. But even as you can see with this
issue right with Cops City, Um, you know, Cops City
isn't necessarily in the neighborhood of Pittsburgh, but it was
the same ap D officers that killed Rashard Brooks in
our neighborhood last year. Right, So these all issues are
fall under the umbrella of capitalism and racial capitalism with

(44:00):
affects all of us. So when it comes to these
types of issues, we have to work in coalitions because
that's what's going to be able to make us be
that much stronger because we all are affected by these uh,
these these intersectional systems. So UM, I definitely think that, Um,
you know, while it might not be on every single
project that we work on with each other on because

(44:20):
we all have our specialties in our our niches of
areas of work. UM, when it comes to intersectional issues
like this that are big, there are that affect all
of us in different ways. UM I could definitely, I
definitely as being able to work within coalitions and continuing
that momentum and work that we've built off with this
cops of the effort. Is there anything you want to
say to people who are outside of Atlanta anyway they

(44:41):
can show support. UM. I think one thing that I
can add that maybe is a little bit more generalized, is, UM,
I know that there's a lot of fear right now,
and there's a lot of anger right now, and there's
a lot of hurt right now, and it feels like
our rights are being attacked on every front with you
know O we weight in Texas and issues like cop

(45:03):
City and militarization and expansion of policing in the eviction
moratorium and all of these things. And I know that
it can seem very daunting. And I guess my my
thing that I want to say to people is this
is not the time to disengage. Everybody who supports and
seeks to promote and who is protected by the status

(45:24):
quo wants you to disengage, don't do it. Come fight
with us in your community, in our community, anywhere we
need you. Yeah. Absolutely, I will double down on that
point to say, Yeah, we could say that again and
again that it's a point that always needs to be reiterated,
reiterated more often. Yeah, is there any is there any

(45:46):
place UM people can do any financial support from from
far away that people can assist either through legal funds
or various other means. Yes, so I've do a few
I don't know communit movement bilities. We have a donate
page if fuel to our website Community Movement Builders dot org.
There's a donate tab you can donate directly through there.
You can also donate to our cash up cash app

(46:10):
that's Dollar Signs cmb O, r G c mb org UM,
but also Atlanta Bail Fund is also is always an
important resource UM if folks are taking arrest of different
direct actions in different protests UM. I've had several comrades
who have gone to who have who have taken the
rest for very variety for a variety of actions, and

(46:33):
we do rely on that as a source for us
to be able to make sure that we're still you know,
able to UM, you know, live and breathe and survive
another day in this capitalist, at racist as UM country
that we live within. I want to plug UM donating
to and supporting the Atlanta Homeless Union UM, which formed

(46:54):
this summer and has been doing an incredible credical work UM.
I also want to plug mainline Zene on Instagram and Twitter,
and UH they have been critical in UM actual like
anti fascist news coverage and just kind of telling the

(47:14):
truth on a lot of these issues. Fantastic and I
want to thank thank thank you too so much for
uh coming on to talk about UM what what what
you'll have been working on UM. Yeah, it's it's very important.
I'm happy that more people can know about it UM
in the future and thinking thinking less optimistic if if

(47:36):
they do vote to continue UM. I'm hoping that we
can UM get some people down to Atlanta to help
with whatever direct action organizing is going to be is
going to be happening to to to prevent this UM physically.
So yeah, I mean there's no matter the result, there's
always going to be more struggle. There's always going to
be more stuff to do. UM. Yeah. And just thank

(48:00):
thank you guys for talking about this absolutely, thank you
for having this on. And with that that wraps up
our talk with the wonderful folks from the Defend the
Atlanta Forest Coalition. UH. They had their plugs there that
you can I recommend you following UM if you want

(48:20):
to keep track on the movement specifically and what's going on.
You can also check out their social media's. You can
check Defend a t L Forest on Twitter. Can also
check out the community Movement Builders at Community m v
T on Twitter, and you can find Sunrise Atlanta at
Sunrise m v m T a t L. So that

(48:45):
is the discussion. Stay tuned for more news on the
Atlanta forest and the cop City Project will be covering
this in the next few you know, in the next
few episodes, probably in the next few weeks, and if
they vote yes to continue with I'm sure we'll be
reporting there in person at some point. Thanks for listening,
and we have three yesh more episodes coming up this week,

(49:06):
so stay tuned for that. Goodbye. It Could Happen Here
is a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone media
dot com or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It Could Happen here, updated

(49:27):
monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening.

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