March 1, 2022 • 40 mins
A new refugee trail has been created in the wake of a Russian invasion. Reporter James Stout talks with someone who escaped on foot.
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. UM. Obviously, as I'm sure
everyone is being bombarded with, the war in Ukraine is
uh in its fifth day right now something like that. Um.
We just passed ninety six hours. By some accounts, more
than three hundred thousand people have been made refugees. Those
are going to be very in exact numbers, but it's
(00:27):
it's likely to be somewhere between like fifty and a
hundred thousand people per day being made refugees, and it's
possible that's gonna last for the foreseeable future. Much of
the coverage that you will have seen at this point,
UM is going to focus on heroic pieces of of
of resistance, you know, things that Ukrainian civilians picking up arms,
throwing Molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers destroying Russian armored columns. Some
(00:52):
of that's gonna be a propaganda some of that A
decent amount of that's actually happening. Obviously, we have a
fair amount of documentation, but what I think has not
gotten nearly as much play as the situation at the
border of Ukraine in Poland. UM. Because this refugee crisis
is enormous, but it's also not sexy, and it points
(01:12):
to a number of things that are ugly about some
of the stuff that people like to celebrate this conflict,
including the conduct of President Zelinsky, who is i think
handled himself objectively well as a wartime leader, and who
is also, as you'll hear in the interview that's about
to follow, made some decisions that have had a catastrophic
impact on people's lives. So this is an interview conducted
by a journalist H. James Stout, who is working with
(01:35):
us on this project and with another project that will
be launching soon, with a person, an individual, an American
who was well has a couple of different passports, but
with a person who was in Ukraine when the invasion
began and left and eventually wound up leaving on foot
with tens of thousands of other people for the Polish border.
(01:57):
So this is a story of what it is like
to flee a country at the beginning of a war
um and and the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians
are going to be facing every single day. So please listen,
Hey Manny, how are you I'm doing well? How are
you good? Good? It's ready to keep you up late.
(02:18):
I'm period exhausted. No, No, it's okay, it's okay. Um.
I actually just arrived at a new hostel in New City. Um,
and I'm going to be up for a couple more
hours anyway, so it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great,
do you mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool? Excellent,
and let me explain what we're gonna do. So I'm
I'm bringing the piece for NBC on the the refugee
(02:42):
situation that's emerging, and then I'm also helping to make
a podcast for I Heart Radio about a similar thing.
So it's okay with you. We'll use the audio for
one and then some of your words for another. Absolutely,
how is my audio coming through? It's great, Actually, it's
really really good. But you wanted to telephone or you
on a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I
(03:03):
don't have a computer with me. Now, you're doing really well.
If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record
it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording.
So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a
pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. So if we go
back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah, So
(03:27):
I was in Kiev a few days ago. I was
in Kiev, um eight days ago. Um. And then I
went to Lviv four days ago. Okay. And had you
been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had been.
I've been in Ukraine or I had been in Ukraine
in total for one week, okay, so you have not
that long. And you so you're riding Kiev, you went
(03:51):
to Leviv. Can you remember, like where you were when
you found out that the invasion was happening and that
it was going to go past don Bass and into
you Grane, Yeah, of course. So I woke up on
the morning of twenty four February to the sound of
air raid sirens outside, and it was a very confusing sound.
I had never heard it right, sirens in real life.
I just heard them in movies and television shows and such.
(04:13):
And I knew immediately what had happened. I didn't even
have to check the news, um. And I did check
the news soon afterward, and there were bombings all over
the country. There were reports of bombings in Ivana front Kiss,
which is a city one south of le Viv, where
I was, and there were so many rumors flying around.
There were rumors that the Russians were coming coming to
(04:34):
Levv at that moment, which was not the case but
can still be the case very soon. Anyway, So we
heard I heard these these air raids sirens as I
woke up, and I shook away my roommate, who was
a British journalist, um, and I told him we might
be bombed any minute. So we went outside to try
and find a shelter. Um, pretty much still in our nightclothes,
(04:58):
we went outside to try and find a shelter. They
were a loudspeakers saying, uh, everybody remained calm, fine shelter
helped the elderly stockpile water, and it was repeating this
on repeat, and people were shuffling along. There was a
sense of muted panic. So it was an outright panic,
but it was a sense of urgency, I guess you
could call it. And um, we were at war and
(05:20):
that was when I realized that Ukraine was being invaded
at that very moment. Wow, yeah, it sounds dramatic. And
at that point you went to the shelter, I'm guessing,
so did you spend some time then before making the
decision to head to Poland? So after about fifteen minutes
the air rates I would stopped. The news generally came
(05:41):
around the city that Lviv was not about to be bombed,
but nevertheless, massive exodus of people began from Leviv at
that moment. Because okay, we're safe for now, but for
how long are we safe? Was the general sentiment that
was around. So Um, everybody just started making for the
trains station, the bus station. They got into their cars.
(06:03):
People were just leaving. There were huge lines at the
A T. M s. There were huge lines at the
grocery stores. People were buying non perishables. Um. It was
just not a panic pull out, I want to call it,
but it was an urgent departure. It was an urgent
exodus that was happening. And so me and my roommate
we went to the train station, waited in the line
(06:23):
for two hours to see if there were tickets. There
were no tickets. We went to the bus station. We
waited in the line for one hour to see if
there were tickets. There were no tickets. Um, And so
then we started to get a little worried because it
was noon on the day of the invasion. Russian forces
were everywhere in the country of our bombings. Everywhere in
the country and we had to leave, and there was
(06:44):
no viable means to leave. The airport was closed. Of course,
the airport was being bombed a few hours later. Um.
And so we tried to look into car higher. We
tried to see if we could rent a car. We
tried to see if we could take an uber or
a lift or a blah blah car, which is the
Ukrainian version of Uber. And none of those options were available.
(07:05):
Because everybody was thinking the same thing, and in a
sense of almost resigned despair, we decided that it would
be best to just start walking west and see what happened.
And there was around noon when we began to walk west. Wow. Um.
So when you you set off to walk, did you
(07:26):
just sort of take what you could carry and that's
sort of what most people were doing, or did you
get the sense that at least the people were like
preparing for a long period of time away when they left.
The people certainly were not preparing for a long period
of time away. The people were not preparing for war. Um.
For the longest time, President Zelinski and the Ukrainian government
maintained that there would be no war. They called indications
(07:48):
of war alarmists, they called them ludicrous, and uh, it
was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody
sort of woke up and said there's going to be
a war. So I remember the last day before were
the invasion. People were getting ready, people were waiting at
the A T. M s. People were buying groceries, people
were packing. But it was not before before that time,
nobody was getting ready for the war. And so when
(08:11):
the war struck, everybody, uh, everybody just sort of left
hastily and it was a terrifying departure, of a sudden
and terrifying departure because people didn't know what to do
and they just sort of grabbed what they had and
they ran. Luckily for me, in my roommate, we were
traveling with, you know, just one pack or so because
(08:31):
we were not living in Ukraine, um, and so we
were able to just carry what we had on our backs. Yeah.
So he told me through that walk then it's I
think that's sort of like forty three miles is a right,
That's that's right. So we did take a municipal bus
a little bit of the way, which are the municipal bus.
I believe it was five kilometers down the road road
UM five kilometers being like three miles down the road, UM.
(08:53):
And the total distance from LVIV to the borders eight
eighty kilometers, sorry eighty kilometers. Uh. So that really did
not make a dent at all in the distance. And
it was noon when we started, and we knew for
a fact that UM, that we would not make it
before nightfall. And we knew that and we were terrified
at that. So at first we walked along the countryside
(09:16):
was picturesque, it was beautiful, It was indistinguishable from holiday
during springtime. There was a fair, fair weather, it was sunny, UM,
and no one could even tell that the nation was
at war. There was really nobody else walking on the
road besides us in the beginning, and the first twenty kilometers,
I would say, UM. And then we started seeing long
(09:38):
lines of the petrol stations. Every everywhere was out of gas.
There nobody had gas. UM. There was just no ability
to fuel cars. And as a consequence of that, UM
cars were running out of gas and they were being
abandoned on the side of the road, which caused further
traffic pile ups, and soon the road was impenetrable to vehicles.
(10:00):
UM and so because of this, everybody started getting out
of their cars and walking, And so these families who
had planned to escape Mukraine to Poland in their cars
and carry their lives with them were suddenly faced with
the hard decision of taking what they could carry with them. Yeah,
that just sounds terrible. That sounds really difficult. And I'm
sure you saw like older folks and younger people as well,
(10:23):
with people sort of and struggling to do. That's a
long walk, right, that's nd a walk and everyone can
do it, must be very dear. It's a difficult walk
for a young man. And many old women and little
children under the age of five or forced on this
march because there really was no other option for them.
It was either go back to Ukraine and risk being bombed,
(10:45):
risk being under Russian occupation, or it was get out
of your car and walk in the wintertime with no
food or water, no toilet, four fifty miles. And it
was just this nightmare scenario because all these people were
on the road. There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't
negotiate the mud. There were mothers with strollers who couldn't
(11:07):
get get the children um out, and the children were crying,
and the children were asking why are we here, what
it will be doing? Why did we have to leave
home and stand and walk fifty miles in the middle
of winter. Um. And the old people were sort of
resigned to it. They There was one old woman I
passed to was using a cane and she was hobbling
(11:29):
along jade to backpack and I asked her, where are
you going, because we were a part, we were a
long long way from the border, and she said, I'm
going to Poland, very simply. It was a very matter
of fact, um statement. And so these people walked with
a sense of duty and a sense of urgency, and um,
it was just a very tragic humanitarian scene. Yeah, I
(11:51):
can imagine. And that was a major that was a
major route that year on right, like a major road
that just become impossible. It wasn't one of the bigger highway,
but it was I believe the M eleven, the Ukrainian
M eleven and it runs east west throughout the country
and uh, yeah, it's one of the major roads and
it had become completely clogged. Yeah. So on arrival in
(12:13):
im Poland or the border, and I understand that there's
some men like broadly defined as like military age or
eighteen to sixty. I think aren't allowed us and leave
because they they have they have to stay in it
and enlist. Is that right? Did you see? Yes? The
border was absolutely the worst part for that reason. About
(12:34):
five kilometers from the border, at the end of our walk,
we were feeling relieved. We were feeling like, finally we've
made it. Ukrainian military patrols started walking by and driving
by and announcing through loud speakers and announcing with their
own voices, Um, all men must stay. All men between
the ages of eighteen and sixty have to stay. Get
(12:56):
out of line now. And so the fathers naturally asked,
because there were a lot of fathers who were there
to protect their families, to safeguard their families, and to
provide for their families. Uh, these fathers asked, how about us,
we have to we have little children, We have children
under the age of five. How are we supposed to
provide for them? If you conscript us right here? The
Ukrainian army did not care. They pulled them away physically
(13:16):
from their families. There were a lot of tears, There
was a lot of crying, There were a lot of
hurried goodbyes. Brothers left, sisters, mothers left, husbands, um, lovers
left each other. People, people just left. It was terrifying
to watch. Um. Yeah, all these men were conscripted immediately
into the army. Yeah, I can imagine. And what people
(13:39):
at that point like it seems like that we're ready
to be stoic. Up to that point, were people sort
of resisting that like gift with aid, like sort of
sad but resigned to it. That was that Well, that
was when the panic began because everybody was sad but
resigned to their faith of walking to Poland. But nobody
was prepared for losing all the on Um. So when
(14:01):
all the men were lost, when all the men were
taken forcibly and this was public, everybody could see these
men being yanked from their families. Uh. People first started
yelling at the soldiers that didn't do anything obviously um
and they were they were so angry at the soldiers
and the soldiers were didn't care. Um. And then panic
began because people realized, oh my god, this this person
(14:23):
who was here with us, who was a travel companion,
who's a relative, Now we have to leave without him.
And even more, he's going to the front now and
he is in great danger at the front. So people
began pushing, they began shoving, they began being rude to
one another. Um. There there was no sense of empathy
among the people at all because it was a panic
(14:44):
to get across the border at that point. Um. So
there were people fainting, uh, and that was really just overlooked.
The people who fainted were sort of dragged to the
side and left there and I think they they made it.
I don't know if they made it out. Okay, they
certainly didn't die. But there were people who were fainting.
There are people who were sobbing, There are people who
(15:07):
were hyperventilating. That was vomiting going on. It was just
this sense of absolute human panic as people just tried
to escape. In the last in the last five kilometers
and especially in the last was the very worst. So, yeah,
terrible thing to see. If you hadn't say you stay
in touch. One of the lads who was conscripted right, yes,
(15:28):
that that was a development from tonight. So while we
were walking about this was about fifteen kilometers out from
the border, we met a young Ukrainian man um and
we just got to talking to him because I mean,
we could relate to him. We were about I'm about
the same age as him, um, and so I we
(15:49):
were just like sort of talking about our lives and
it was almost as if the war wasn't going on.
And then we got to these army checkpoints um, and
they started calling all the men you have to you
have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh,
I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight
in this war. And he tried to, you know, sort of, um,
stay with us. Because we were foreigners, we were not
(16:11):
we were not eligible to be conscripted, so he sort
of tried to stay with us. He was he was
a student. He was trying not to fight in this
war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a
girlfriend who who was traveling with U. And so we
we were walking with him and I said, hey, do
you want to do an interview? He said sure, um,
(16:32):
and I started talking to him on camera, and then
the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey,
you get out of line, and um. He said, I'm sorry,
I have to go, and he just gave me this look,
like this desparing look, and he went with the soldier.
UM the two days later. Today tonight, he messaged me
on Instagram and he said, because we by the way,
(16:54):
we had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um.
He messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I
saw that you mentioned me and uh in your Twitter
because I told him about the Twitter as well. UM,
and he said, just letting you know I'm safe if
I'm not in the East fighting the Russians. Um, I
am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is
(17:16):
my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he
would otherwise be in the East. But um, I'm not sure.
I just know that he was safe right now, and
he confirmed that he was safe. Okay, So so yeah,
you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's
in Smresti role or if he's managed to get out
(17:36):
of it. To himhow I know that he has managed
to escape the brunt of the fighting of the Russians,
that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, But it's
still a terrible thing to have to do with. So
it's my understanding. It's a visa. There's visa free entry
into Poland right now? Is that right? That people can
walk aggressively. Yes, the entry into Poland was an absolute
priest compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why,
(17:57):
but you have to wait in a long line and
rain for an exit piece, just for permission to leave
the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the
worst part because they were only letting ten people out
every twenty minutes. That ten people get an exit visa
every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand
people at the border with US, and so that's that's
where this panic happened, is because every time they opened
(18:19):
that gate every twenty minutes, and by the way, this
is like two in the morning in the cold weather,
and people are as I mentioned, crying, vomiting, fainting, um.
And so every time they opened that gate, there was
a human crush to get to that gate, and it
closed it and they forced the people back, and then
it was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And
this happened all night long, um. And this was literally
(18:40):
just to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous,
it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert
from your question, but it's very interesting. Poland was extremely
easy to enter. There was no visa process. They understood.
They let us through. I think they just barely looked
at our passports. UM. So yeah, it was it was
(19:02):
easy when you at that point, like obviously had no
plans or places to go, and they could they house
you with some kind of refugee housing that they put
you in. Uh not when I was there, Um, they
(19:24):
did do that. They did implement that about twelve hours
after I arrived. Um. But when I arrived, we were
greeted immediately pretty much right out of the border facility
with donuts and tea um. And so they gave us donuts,
they gave us tea UM. And then they said, hey,
there's a bus to Premishill, which is the city about
fifteen kilometers west of the border, um where all the
(19:45):
refugees are gathering. And they said there's a bus the
Premiership at least every fifteen minutes. And we got on
that bus um and then we end up we arrived
in Premiershill and at that time refugees were responsible for
their own accommodation. We managed to book a room in
a whole tell with eight other refugees um in the room. Uh.
And so I was sleeping in this this room with
(20:06):
eight other refugees. They didn't want to talk to me.
They were kind of despondent. They lost everything, and so
they were just very sad the entire time that I
was there. Yeah, but to answer your question about housing
real quick, uh, about twelve hours after we arrived, they
began setting up tents for the refugees, and that is
where many of the refugees are living now. Intense Okay,
(20:28):
it's that you know, that's a Polish government or the
Red Cross or is that citizens of Poland. I have
no idea which organization did that, but I can tell
you that I did not see a single Red Cross
or United Nations representative while I was in Poland. Okay. Interesting, Yeah,
they can be sometimes a little slow to react and yeah, yeah, okay,
So you then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able
(20:50):
to really talk to the people there because understandable, they
probably had a very very difficult twenty four hours and
we all had had Yeah, I mean, no talking was
being had pretty much. Did you get a sense when
as you met the people walking there, crossing the border,
et cetera, where people did they have plans to be gone?
From Ukraine. Were they thinking where can I stay for
(21:12):
a long period of time? Were they thinking I'm going
to wait this out in Poland and see? Um? I
was pleasantly surprised that a good half of the people
that I spoke to in that in that convoy, in
the refugee caravan had relatives either in Poland or elsewhere
in Europe. Um, And so they were all they had
(21:34):
all called their relatives and they had arranged them to
go to Western Europe and meet their relatives. Okay, yes,
and they've got a place and they're planning to at least. However,
another half of them have no plans whatsoever, and they're terrified.
And those are the refugees that I stayed with the
hotel last night. Um. Is that they're terrified and they
have no place to go. Yeah, right, and no one's
(21:56):
really provided them with one yet. No. Yeah, that's difficult.
And it seems like I don't have to be interesting
to see how the United States three acts because it
hasn't really done very much so far. Um. It's amazing.
I heard that the reason I crossed at that place
rather than any other places that I heard that the U. S.
Army was there and I did not see the U
(22:17):
S Army, and I searched for them and I did
not find them. So I don't know where the U
S is. Okay, Yeah, you haven't seen any any evidence
of like any seeing no sort of n POS or
government sort of aid for refugees yet then it's kind
of surprising. As I mentioned, I haven't seen any U
N representative, any Red Cross representative, any WHO representative. I
(22:40):
haven't seen any NGO or governmental representatives. I did see,
of course Polish government representatives at the border, but that
was about it, right, it said from Polish people. Do
you get a sense of sort of solidarity? How I
think talking about so it was actually amazing to say,
(23:00):
it was heartwarming to see the citizens of Freshman Dell
are now swamped. Their population has been doubled or tripled
by the incoming Ukrainian refugees, and yet they are showing
great amounts of solidarity. I actually attended a solidarity rally
today um where the citizens of Freshman Dill got together
and they said ukraine Is are our brothers and putin
(23:22):
us clearly in the wrong, and we will stand with them,
we will show solidarity with them, and that that was
hard warming to say. I talked with a few of
those Poles at that rally and they said, yeah, we
knew this was coming and we prepared for it and
we're ready to take in as many as is necessary. Yeah,
that's really nice to herrity that these people are sort
of showing solidarity with each other, in support with each other.
(23:43):
And yes, yeah, so when you were on your way west,
I presume that, like the conflict didn't catch up with you, right,
You weren't to be said, act like indirect fire or
you see any of that. No, However, there was about
fifty behind us a bombing. As I mentioned. We did
not hear it, but there were reports of the fighting
(24:05):
going on all the time. But it's not catch up
to us while we were in that h while we
were in that caravan, and um, it would have been
absolutely terrifying if it had. But I'm glad that it
did that, right. Yeah. And then so you've been there
for about a week. Had you previously been doing some
reporting in Ukraine. I've never done reporting in Ukraine before,
(24:26):
But when I came to Ukraine and the war had
not even started, I was mostly just doing interviews with
civilians about what they thought about the possibility of war,
about what they thought about the war, and don Bass
um most a lot of cultural stuff. It was kind
of boring. I mean not that not that war is
interesting or fun, but it was not really much of
a story um So. I was just doing interviews with
(24:48):
people about basic Ukrainian things, and then the war found
us so and it seemed to have come as much
a shock to them as it did to the rest
of us. As I mentioned, nobody was prepared for war
until about twenty four hours before it hit, and that's
when the Ukrainian government said, yes, there will be a war,
and everybody began sort of to have a sense of
(25:10):
urgency about them. Did you see any of the citizen
militias and citizens preparing for defense the people who decided
to stay. Yes, I didn't see any of the militias.
But I was went into a Ukrainian gun shopping Kiev
and there was a line almost off the door. People
were buying guns, um And I asked one of the
(25:31):
people on the line, why are you buying a gun?
And he said, if the Russians come, I want to
be prepared. So a lot of people are buying guns
privately in Kiev at least as of last week, okay,
so that they weren't wait for the government to supply
then they were supplying themselves with guns. I believe. I
believe the government supply was a rather um my sudden decision.
(25:53):
I don't think the ukraining people were counting on it.
And so they were supplying themselves and then buying like
like collectionkov To rifles, and we talked about hunting rifles
and yeah, you can't buy flashing cobs in the gun store.
They were buying sort of hunting rifles and shotguns Jesus. Okay, yeah, yeah,
really under equipped, all right, So they were just prepared
to trying to get anything they could get their hands
(26:13):
on to look after themselves and their families. Yeah. I
bought peper spray. Yeah better than nothing. Uh yeah, okay,
so yeah there was there was Did you see, like
the people you walked with with it, did families tend
to leave as a whole or did did some folks
so say I'm going to stay behind and fight, or
(26:34):
I'm going to stay behind to stay and look after
a house and you should leave. Didn't get the center
that the vast majority of people traveling were families as
a whole. There were very few single travelers or partial
families traveling. It was I think that people wanted to
stick together, and so it was the vast majority of
people traveling were families. Okay, yeah, yeah, so they all
(26:54):
stayed or left. Do you get a sense of how
many people you said about two thousand people at the border,
like of what protortion of the city decided to leave
for Poland? Not all the people that the border were
from leviv Um. A lot of them have been traveling
since that morning from Kiev, uh in other cities in
uh central western Ukraine. Um So, yeah, I was talking
(27:17):
to people at the border, and a lot of them
were from Kiev, A lot of them were from zephyr Ziza.
I'm pronouncing that wrong. A lot of them were from
turner Pill or Ivana, frankisk Um or Odessa and uh
so I would not have any sort of conjecture on
what percentage of the city. Also, still pretty early in
the crisis, uh because it was still the first day
(27:40):
and it was fewer than twenty four hours after the
invasion began. So I imagine the numbers are a lot
higher now. When you were getting us, right if you
were traveling, et cetera, where you like on what Apple?
(28:00):
What people on Twitter? Like, how are they getting news
of what was happening? Everybody, and absolutely everybody was completely
dark during the walk, um because I don't know why,
but there was no sense of cell reception, there was
no sense of data reception, there was no sense of
Internet connection at all during the walk. And so everybody
(28:21):
I met, we we asked, we asked everybody we met,
do you have any news? And they said no, do
you have any news? Um? So nobody had any news
until we got to the border. Some people had news,
but for about about sixteen hours we were completely in
the dark about what was going on. And that was
terrifying because when we left the invasion had just begun
(28:42):
and we didn't get to be updated on the first
half day. So yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, and then on
arrival you're faced with this news of this like sort
of blitzkre egl lifed right bombing and right yes, um,
I mean we we saw a little it of it
in the morning that day, well when we when we
(29:02):
started out, um, but it had really accelerated and amplified
by the time that we arrived um and the Ukrainians
were absolutely terrified at this because they did not realize
what happened on such a large scale. Yeah, I think
very few people did. Okay, imagine if it's in your
own country, it's petrifying. Were you there when the fighting
(29:23):
began in the Chernobyl exclusions? I know, were you in
Poland by then? When did the fighting began in Chernal?
I believe about twenty four hours after the fighting began,
big period. I was crossing in the Poland twenty four
hours after the fighting began, period, So I was probably
crossing into Poland when that fighting began. Okay. You know,
it's interesting to know, especially how sort of the older
(29:44):
people or people who have been alive, like the nuclear accidents,
you know. But it's wondering how I mean, I've been
talking to plenty of plenty of older people, and as
I mentioned, the older people especially were resigned to this
because during the Soviet times, during the cold for the
sort of thing was common, um, And so the older
people knew what was going on, and the younger people
(30:05):
were the ones who were more panicking. That's interesting. Yeah,
they said they've been raised with a fear of that
I suppose, right, and this happened in too, like this
is the biggest refugee crisis since nineteen eight nine, because
in nine nine, when all the republics fell in the
Warsaw Pact, so many people starched to the roads, and
(30:27):
so the older people were used to that kind of thing. Um,
But as I mentioned, the younger people were not so right, yeah, yeah,
and so yeah, it's different reactions, I guess. And it's
very young people obviously unable to understand what's going on,
and beyond their leaving their homes, which is said right,
and especially the little children had no idea what was
going on, and it was impossible to explain to them,
(30:50):
so nobody did, um. And so I can't imagine how
terrifying this must have been as a child, not knowing
why you had to walk dozens of hours in the
cold carrying everything had. Yeah, it's always the saddest thing
to see children in those refugee situations when we obviously
don't know what's going on and didn't do anything wrong.
And right, yea, hopefully they're all safe, Hopefully they're in Poland,
(31:12):
hopefully they can go to safe places. I made several
contexts during this trip. And as I mentioned, only one
of one of them has gone back to me, So
I hope the others get back to me soon. Yeah
that's tough, but you've got the sense of everyone since
they weren't turned back, per say, they just might be
sort of not in touch because their phones don't charged
(31:33):
or something like that. It's either their phones aren't aren't charged,
or in the men men's case, they were sent to
the East, or they're too busy trying to arrange accommodations
or food for themselves or something. I mean, everybody was
just very busy trying to survive. Yeah, so I don't
blame them if they don't, if they don't hop on
social media, Yeah, yeah, of course. And of course, yeah,
(31:56):
I did very very stressful time for everyone. Did you
did you hear of anyone who has been sent to
the east the second hand or like three people you
met people who are at the front already. Um, I
do not have any contacts of anybody who was sent
to the East. From what I understand, the Ukrainian Army
has a strict uh communication social media sort of policy,
(32:18):
and so none of these soldiers that I met one
wanted to talk to me. I did not talk to
any Ukrainian Army soldiers in uniform because they had a
very strict policy. They could not talk to me, and
too I could not get their contacts for much of
the same reason. Okay, so they didn't want to talk
to you, an, I didn't want to talk to anyone.
They were just looking for you know that, they were
just they were very stern and they did not want
(32:38):
to talk to anybody. So I talked to zero soldiers
in uniform during this experience. Okay, yeah, so where are
you now? You've you've gone further west west? Is that right?
That's right. I took a long bus ride to crack
Off today. Um, and so I'm now crack Off, Poland. Okay,
how folks dealing? Is it different there being a little
bit more distant. I already talked to a few people,
(33:01):
and uh, well it's a Saturday night. They're going out
to drink, and they they're saying, well, yeah, it's it's
terrible that this war is happening two fifty niles east
of us, but what are we supposed to do about it?
So they're going out and drinking. So it's this very
detached sense here and crack out. Not the same as
(33:22):
it was in freshmanvill Yeah. Interesting to people are living
their normal life and it's just it's a news item
for them. It's they're not worried about any potential spill
over a fallout, right, Okay, yeah, they're not worried. Nice
and well you do you plan to stay there? What's
what's next to you? So I actually just booked a
flight uh an hour ago. I'm going to be flying
(33:44):
back to the States on Marsh the first. Okay, great, yeah,
so you can. You can come back and presubably you're
like your US passible holders that you could just get.
That's how you go through being conscripted, etcetera. I am
not I'm not carrying the US pass right now. I'm
carrying an Italian passport um because I'm also a citizen
(34:05):
of Italy and I was told before I left by
some friends in the intelligence community that it would look
significantly less suspicious to carry an EU passport than an
US passport. So I bought the U passport. Nice. Yeah,
and then you can travel free d d yes, yeah yeah, yeah.
Do you know if Yukrainian people can creble once? Because
once they're in Poland. Can they then move through the
(34:26):
Shangan's own freely. Ukraine is not a member of the EU,
They're not a member of Shangan. I do not believe
they can move really, right. I just wondering, like, yeah,
they would be I don't know how their passports would
be checked if they're going across some of those land
boarders that I think. I do know that this was
it was an emergency situation yesterday, and so that's why
(34:47):
they work just very personally checked, but I'm sure it's
strictor usually. Yeah, I wonder what they would be like
if they tried to exit Poland or if Hill right,
I don't know what's going to happen to them, No,
I don't think. I'm guessing there's been no communication of
that that you've seen, either right leg of what they
should do or how to apply for asylum or anything
like that. I have talked to a few people. They
(35:08):
say that they're banking on those countries being empathetic to refugees,
and I understand. I think that countries will be empathetic
to refugees. Yeah, yeah, said, do you certainly hope they will?
So they're just gonna hope that those countries, the ones
who don't have a country to go to. You get
the senswer Yeah, that they'll they'll apply for asylum wherever
they can find a safe place. That's right, um, And
(35:32):
I believe that countries Western European countries that have been
very vocally pro Ukraine recently, UM, will take them in.
So I think that they'll they'll be safe. Yeah, that's
good to hear. I know I've seen estimates of up
to five million refugees, which would be I mean, Germany
absorbed a million people from Syria, right, it's not Yeah,
(35:53):
it's not impossible for Western European countries do that at all,
but it will, but it would still be a catastrophic crisis,
the worst than I needed. So yeah, I have to
hope it doesn't get to that. You get the sense
people are still flowing across the border. I know you're
a bit yes, I think for me, I mean, it's
weird because you want to believe that what you experienced
(36:13):
and what the people around you've experienced was a one
time thing, that it was a one time incident, that
it was one caravan. But this is happening constantly and
it will continue to happen constantly for weeks. Yeah, the
trains and across the border, things like that that people
can take or is it solely yes. So when when
I said that, I went to the train station and
(36:33):
the leave and there were no trains, what was really
happening is, yes, there were trains, but all the trains
until March March were booked so okay, so yeah, people
can't take those trains across that kind of thing. Uh,
if they tried to book right now, they won't be
able to find a booking for a while. Okay, they're
already booked up. And by the way, here in crack Out, Um,
(36:55):
the first two hostels that I went to, the first
two places to stay that I went to, were all
booked up. And I asked why and he said Ukrainian refugees.
So there are Ukrainian refugees here and crack Out Okay, Yeah,
people are moving for it. I'm sure a lot of
people want to get far aways they can. Yeah, so
people are just constantly moving lest right now. Yeah, but
they have friends of a family that they try to
get to it because yeah, and I've been hearing the
(37:17):
Ukrainian language just constantly on my trip so that's interesting too. Yeah, yeah,
thanks for that. It's a really really interesting insight. Is
there anything else you think from your experience that people
ought to hear about? Um? No, I believe I've told
you everything. I've I've really told the story dozens of
(37:37):
times since it happened, and I really hope that I
hit all the all the right notes here. UM. If
you if you had to tell anything to the people
who were reading or listening to this, Um, Ukraine really
needs weapons, yes, but they also need humanitarian aid. When
I was walking all that distance with all those people,
there was not a single sense of food being provided
(38:00):
to anyone, water being provided to anyone. There was no
chance to go to the toilet, there was often no
chance to sit down. If we could give even a
chance for these people to eat something, to drink something,
to have a minute of solace, UM, that would mean
the world to them. And so I think that we
need to provide humanitarian aid to the refugees as soon
as possible. And you you said you didn't see any
(38:22):
organizations you'd suggest people donate to that you you didn't
see any of that? Is there anyone you can know?
And I don't know. I haven't actually done the research,
and that I probably should. Um, but I I know
that the Welcome committee in Poland were private citizens. They
were not part of any energy or anything. They were
private citizens. Are welcoming awesome? Yeah, I've seen some of
(38:45):
them organizing on Facebook, so alter I maybe linked to
some of those or something like that. So people going
to support right and all right, and then is there
anything like you'd like to to plug, like do you
have a you have a Twitter? Right? Is there anything
else you could tell us what your Twitter is? Um?
I mean, so the Twitter that I'm using for this,
which you've probably seen as a temporary one, it was
not only to cover this crisis. I guess my private
(39:07):
twitter plugged that. Which is you've seen that as well, probably,
Um it's just my name. Um, yeah, I guess just
plugged that. And uh, I mean thank you for everything. No,
of course, Um it's Mannie Routta with two T s, right, Yes,
m A r O T t A great. Okay, we
got that, and yeah, thank you very much. Thanks for
(39:28):
taking the time to talk. I appreciate a pretty difficult
couple of days to get some rest. And if there's
anything else in any developments, please do let me give
me a shout tyler. Thank you? All right, cheeers mate?
Do you have a goody me? It could happen here
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone Media
(39:51):
dot com, or check us out on the I Heart
Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
monthly a cool Zone me to dot com slash sources.
Thanks for listening.
Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here. UM. Obviously, as I'm sure
everyone is being bombarded with, the war in Ukraine is
uh in its fifth day right now something like that. Um.
We just passed ninety six hours. By some accounts, more
than three hundred thousand people have been made refugees. Those
are going to be very in exact numbers, but it's
(00:27):
it's likely to be somewhere between like fifty and a
hundred thousand people per day being made refugees, and it's
possible that's gonna last for the foreseeable future. Much of
the coverage that you will have seen at this point,
UM is going to focus on heroic pieces of of
of resistance, you know, things that Ukrainian civilians picking up arms,
throwing Molotov cocktails, Ukrainian soldiers destroying Russian armored columns. Some
(00:52):
of that's gonna be a propaganda some of that A
decent amount of that's actually happening. Obviously, we have a
fair amount of documentation, but what I think has not
gotten nearly as much play as the situation at the
border of Ukraine in Poland. UM. Because this refugee crisis
is enormous, but it's also not sexy, and it points
(01:12):
to a number of things that are ugly about some
of the stuff that people like to celebrate this conflict,
including the conduct of President Zelinsky, who is i think
handled himself objectively well as a wartime leader, and who
is also, as you'll hear in the interview that's about
to follow, made some decisions that have had a catastrophic
impact on people's lives. So this is an interview conducted
by a journalist H. James Stout, who is working with
(01:35):
us on this project and with another project that will
be launching soon, with a person, an individual, an American
who was well has a couple of different passports, but
with a person who was in Ukraine when the invasion
began and left and eventually wound up leaving on foot
with tens of thousands of other people for the Polish border.
(01:57):
So this is a story of what it is like
to flee a country at the beginning of a war
um and and the realities that increasing numbers of Ukrainians
are going to be facing every single day. So please listen,
Hey Manny, how are you I'm doing well? How are
you good? Good? It's ready to keep you up late.
(02:18):
I'm period exhausted. No, No, it's okay, it's okay. Um.
I actually just arrived at a new hostel in New City. Um,
and I'm going to be up for a couple more
hours anyway, so it's a good time to talk. Nice. Great,
do you mind if I record this? Go ahead? Cool? Excellent,
and let me explain what we're gonna do. So I'm
I'm bringing the piece for NBC on the the refugee
(02:42):
situation that's emerging, and then I'm also helping to make
a podcast for I Heart Radio about a similar thing.
So it's okay with you. We'll use the audio for
one and then some of your words for another. Absolutely,
how is my audio coming through? It's great, Actually, it's
really really good. But you wanted to telephone or you
on a computer. I'm on a telephone right now. I
(03:03):
don't have a computer with me. Now, you're doing really well.
If you're on a computer, i'd ask you to record
it back up, but this is just fine. I'm recording.
So yeah, like, um, it seems like you've had a
pretty exhausting forty eight hours now. So if we go
back to when you were in Kiev, right, Yeah, So
(03:27):
I was in Kiev a few days ago. I was
in Kiev, um eight days ago. Um. And then I
went to Lviv four days ago. Okay. And had you
been how long have you been in Ukraine? I had been.
I've been in Ukraine or I had been in Ukraine
in total for one week, okay, so you have not
that long. And you so you're riding Kiev, you went
(03:51):
to Leviv. Can you remember, like where you were when
you found out that the invasion was happening and that
it was going to go past don Bass and into
you Grane, Yeah, of course. So I woke up on
the morning of twenty four February to the sound of
air raid sirens outside, and it was a very confusing sound.
I had never heard it right, sirens in real life.
I just heard them in movies and television shows and such.
(04:13):
And I knew immediately what had happened. I didn't even
have to check the news, um. And I did check
the news soon afterward, and there were bombings all over
the country. There were reports of bombings in Ivana front Kiss,
which is a city one south of le Viv, where
I was, and there were so many rumors flying around.
There were rumors that the Russians were coming coming to
(04:34):
Levv at that moment, which was not the case but
can still be the case very soon. Anyway, So we
heard I heard these these air raids sirens as I
woke up, and I shook away my roommate, who was
a British journalist, um, and I told him we might
be bombed any minute. So we went outside to try
and find a shelter. Um, pretty much still in our nightclothes,
(04:58):
we went outside to try and find a shelter. They
were a loudspeakers saying, uh, everybody remained calm, fine shelter
helped the elderly stockpile water, and it was repeating this
on repeat, and people were shuffling along. There was a
sense of muted panic. So it was an outright panic,
but it was a sense of urgency, I guess you
could call it. And um, we were at war and
(05:20):
that was when I realized that Ukraine was being invaded
at that very moment. Wow, yeah, it sounds dramatic. And
at that point you went to the shelter, I'm guessing,
so did you spend some time then before making the
decision to head to Poland? So after about fifteen minutes
the air rates I would stopped. The news generally came
(05:41):
around the city that Lviv was not about to be bombed,
but nevertheless, massive exodus of people began from Leviv at
that moment. Because okay, we're safe for now, but for
how long are we safe? Was the general sentiment that
was around. So Um, everybody just started making for the
trains station, the bus station. They got into their cars.
(06:03):
People were just leaving. There were huge lines at the
A T. M s. There were huge lines at the
grocery stores. People were buying non perishables. Um. It was
just not a panic pull out, I want to call it,
but it was an urgent departure. It was an urgent
exodus that was happening. And so me and my roommate
we went to the train station, waited in the line
(06:23):
for two hours to see if there were tickets. There
were no tickets. We went to the bus station. We
waited in the line for one hour to see if
there were tickets. There were no tickets. Um, And so
then we started to get a little worried because it
was noon on the day of the invasion. Russian forces
were everywhere in the country of our bombings. Everywhere in
the country and we had to leave, and there was
(06:44):
no viable means to leave. The airport was closed. Of course,
the airport was being bombed a few hours later. Um.
And so we tried to look into car higher. We
tried to see if we could rent a car. We
tried to see if we could take an uber or
a lift or a blah blah car, which is the
Ukrainian version of Uber. And none of those options were available.
(07:05):
Because everybody was thinking the same thing, and in a
sense of almost resigned despair, we decided that it would
be best to just start walking west and see what happened.
And there was around noon when we began to walk west. Wow. Um.
So when you you set off to walk, did you
(07:26):
just sort of take what you could carry and that's
sort of what most people were doing, or did you
get the sense that at least the people were like
preparing for a long period of time away when they left.
The people certainly were not preparing for a long period
of time away. The people were not preparing for war. Um.
For the longest time, President Zelinski and the Ukrainian government
maintained that there would be no war. They called indications
(07:48):
of war alarmists, they called them ludicrous, and uh, it
was only in the final twenty four hours that everybody
sort of woke up and said there's going to be
a war. So I remember the last day before were
the invasion. People were getting ready, people were waiting at
the A T. M s. People were buying groceries, people
were packing. But it was not before before that time,
nobody was getting ready for the war. And so when
(08:11):
the war struck, everybody, uh, everybody just sort of left
hastily and it was a terrifying departure, of a sudden
and terrifying departure because people didn't know what to do
and they just sort of grabbed what they had and
they ran. Luckily for me, in my roommate, we were
traveling with, you know, just one pack or so because
(08:31):
we were not living in Ukraine, um, and so we
were able to just carry what we had on our backs. Yeah.
So he told me through that walk then it's I
think that's sort of like forty three miles is a right,
That's that's right. So we did take a municipal bus
a little bit of the way, which are the municipal bus.
I believe it was five kilometers down the road road
UM five kilometers being like three miles down the road, UM.
(08:53):
And the total distance from LVIV to the borders eight
eighty kilometers, sorry eighty kilometers. Uh. So that really did
not make a dent at all in the distance. And
it was noon when we started, and we knew for
a fact that UM, that we would not make it
before nightfall. And we knew that and we were terrified
at that. So at first we walked along the countryside
(09:16):
was picturesque, it was beautiful, It was indistinguishable from holiday
during springtime. There was a fair, fair weather, it was sunny, UM,
and no one could even tell that the nation was
at war. There was really nobody else walking on the
road besides us in the beginning, and the first twenty kilometers,
I would say, UM. And then we started seeing long
(09:38):
lines of the petrol stations. Every everywhere was out of gas.
There nobody had gas. UM. There was just no ability
to fuel cars. And as a consequence of that, UM
cars were running out of gas and they were being
abandoned on the side of the road, which caused further
traffic pile ups, and soon the road was impenetrable to vehicles.
(10:00):
UM and so because of this, everybody started getting out
of their cars and walking, And so these families who
had planned to escape Mukraine to Poland in their cars
and carry their lives with them were suddenly faced with
the hard decision of taking what they could carry with them. Yeah,
that just sounds terrible. That sounds really difficult. And I'm
sure you saw like older folks and younger people as well,
(10:23):
with people sort of and struggling to do. That's a
long walk, right, that's nd a walk and everyone can
do it, must be very dear. It's a difficult walk
for a young man. And many old women and little
children under the age of five or forced on this
march because there really was no other option for them.
It was either go back to Ukraine and risk being bombed,
(10:45):
risk being under Russian occupation, or it was get out
of your car and walk in the wintertime with no
food or water, no toilet, four fifty miles. And it
was just this nightmare scenario because all these people were
on the road. There were people in wheelchairs who couldn't
negotiate the mud. There were mothers with strollers who couldn't
(11:07):
get get the children um out, and the children were crying,
and the children were asking why are we here, what
it will be doing? Why did we have to leave
home and stand and walk fifty miles in the middle
of winter. Um. And the old people were sort of
resigned to it. They There was one old woman I
passed to was using a cane and she was hobbling
(11:29):
along jade to backpack and I asked her, where are
you going, because we were a part, we were a
long long way from the border, and she said, I'm
going to Poland, very simply. It was a very matter
of fact, um statement. And so these people walked with
a sense of duty and a sense of urgency, and um,
it was just a very tragic humanitarian scene. Yeah, I
(11:51):
can imagine. And that was a major that was a
major route that year on right, like a major road
that just become impossible. It wasn't one of the bigger highway,
but it was I believe the M eleven, the Ukrainian
M eleven and it runs east west throughout the country
and uh, yeah, it's one of the major roads and
it had become completely clogged. Yeah. So on arrival in
(12:13):
im Poland or the border, and I understand that there's
some men like broadly defined as like military age or
eighteen to sixty. I think aren't allowed us and leave
because they they have they have to stay in it
and enlist. Is that right? Did you see? Yes? The
border was absolutely the worst part for that reason. About
(12:34):
five kilometers from the border, at the end of our walk,
we were feeling relieved. We were feeling like, finally we've
made it. Ukrainian military patrols started walking by and driving
by and announcing through loud speakers and announcing with their
own voices, Um, all men must stay. All men between
the ages of eighteen and sixty have to stay. Get
(12:56):
out of line now. And so the fathers naturally asked,
because there were a lot of fathers who were there
to protect their families, to safeguard their families, and to
provide for their families. Uh, these fathers asked, how about us,
we have to we have little children, We have children
under the age of five. How are we supposed to
provide for them? If you conscript us right here? The
Ukrainian army did not care. They pulled them away physically
(13:16):
from their families. There were a lot of tears, There
was a lot of crying, There were a lot of
hurried goodbyes. Brothers left, sisters, mothers left, husbands, um, lovers
left each other. People, people just left. It was terrifying
to watch. Um. Yeah, all these men were conscripted immediately
into the army. Yeah, I can imagine. And what people
(13:39):
at that point like it seems like that we're ready
to be stoic. Up to that point, were people sort
of resisting that like gift with aid, like sort of
sad but resigned to it. That was that Well, that
was when the panic began because everybody was sad but
resigned to their faith of walking to Poland. But nobody
was prepared for losing all the on Um. So when
(14:01):
all the men were lost, when all the men were
taken forcibly and this was public, everybody could see these
men being yanked from their families. Uh. People first started
yelling at the soldiers that didn't do anything obviously um
and they were they were so angry at the soldiers
and the soldiers were didn't care. Um. And then panic
began because people realized, oh my god, this this person
(14:23):
who was here with us, who was a travel companion,
who's a relative, Now we have to leave without him.
And even more, he's going to the front now and
he is in great danger at the front. So people
began pushing, they began shoving, they began being rude to
one another. Um. There there was no sense of empathy
among the people at all because it was a panic
(14:44):
to get across the border at that point. Um. So
there were people fainting, uh, and that was really just overlooked.
The people who fainted were sort of dragged to the
side and left there and I think they they made it.
I don't know if they made it out. Okay, they
certainly didn't die. But there were people who were fainting.
There are people who were sobbing, There are people who
(15:07):
were hyperventilating. That was vomiting going on. It was just
this sense of absolute human panic as people just tried
to escape. In the last in the last five kilometers
and especially in the last was the very worst. So, yeah,
terrible thing to see. If you hadn't say you stay
in touch. One of the lads who was conscripted right, yes,
(15:28):
that that was a development from tonight. So while we
were walking about this was about fifteen kilometers out from
the border, we met a young Ukrainian man um and
we just got to talking to him because I mean,
we could relate to him. We were about I'm about
the same age as him, um, and so I we
(15:49):
were just like sort of talking about our lives and
it was almost as if the war wasn't going on.
And then we got to these army checkpoints um, and
they started calling all the men you have to you
have to leave, um. And so my friend said, oh,
I'm not I'm not leaving. I don't want to fight
in this war. And he tried to, you know, sort of, um,
stay with us. Because we were foreigners, we were not
(16:11):
we were not eligible to be conscripted, so he sort
of tried to stay with us. He was he was
a student. He was trying not to fight in this
war because he had a life elsewhere. He had a
girlfriend who who was traveling with U. And so we
we were walking with him and I said, hey, do
you want to do an interview? He said sure, um,
(16:32):
and I started talking to him on camera, and then
the soldier came by and yelled in his direction, hey,
you get out of line, and um. He said, I'm sorry,
I have to go, and he just gave me this look,
like this desparing look, and he went with the soldier.
UM the two days later. Today tonight, he messaged me
on Instagram and he said, because we by the way,
(16:54):
we had exchange contact information where we were talking. Um.
He messaged me on Instagram and he said, hey, I
saw that you mentioned me and uh in your Twitter
because I told him about the Twitter as well. UM,
and he said, just letting you know I'm safe if
I'm not in the East fighting the Russians. Um, I
am in Leviv and I am safe. And it is
(17:16):
my knowledge that he may have escaped conscription because he
would otherwise be in the East. But um, I'm not sure.
I just know that he was safe right now, and
he confirmed that he was safe. Okay, So so yeah,
you're not sure whether he's doing training or whether he's
in Smresti role or if he's managed to get out
(17:36):
of it. To himhow I know that he has managed
to escape the brunt of the fighting of the Russians,
that's right, Yeah, okay, yeah, good for him, But it's
still a terrible thing to have to do with. So
it's my understanding. It's a visa. There's visa free entry
into Poland right now? Is that right? That people can
walk aggressively. Yes, the entry into Poland was an absolute
priest compared to the exit from Ukraine. I don't know why,
(17:57):
but you have to wait in a long line and
rain for an exit piece, just for permission to leave
the country. And so, as I mentioned, that was the
worst part because they were only letting ten people out
every twenty minutes. That ten people get an exit visa
every twenty minutes, and there were at least two thousand
people at the border with US, and so that's that's
where this panic happened, is because every time they opened
(18:19):
that gate every twenty minutes, and by the way, this
is like two in the morning in the cold weather,
and people are as I mentioned, crying, vomiting, fainting, um.
And so every time they opened that gate, there was
a human crush to get to that gate, and it
closed it and they forced the people back, and then
it was another twenty minutes before it happened again. And
this happened all night long, um. And this was literally
(18:40):
just to get permission to exit the country. It was ludicrous,
it was insane. UM. So yeah, I'm sorry to divert
from your question, but it's very interesting. Poland was extremely
easy to enter. There was no visa process. They understood.
They let us through. I think they just barely looked
at our passports. UM. So yeah, it was it was
(19:02):
easy when you at that point, like obviously had no
plans or places to go, and they could they house
you with some kind of refugee housing that they put
you in. Uh not when I was there, Um, they
(19:24):
did do that. They did implement that about twelve hours
after I arrived. Um. But when I arrived, we were
greeted immediately pretty much right out of the border facility
with donuts and tea um. And so they gave us donuts,
they gave us tea UM. And then they said, hey,
there's a bus to Premishill, which is the city about
fifteen kilometers west of the border, um where all the
(19:45):
refugees are gathering. And they said there's a bus the
Premiership at least every fifteen minutes. And we got on
that bus um and then we end up we arrived
in Premiershill and at that time refugees were responsible for
their own accommodation. We managed to book a room in
a whole tell with eight other refugees um in the room. Uh.
And so I was sleeping in this this room with
(20:06):
eight other refugees. They didn't want to talk to me.
They were kind of despondent. They lost everything, and so
they were just very sad the entire time that I
was there. Yeah, but to answer your question about housing
real quick, uh, about twelve hours after we arrived, they
began setting up tents for the refugees, and that is
where many of the refugees are living now. Intense Okay,
(20:28):
it's that you know, that's a Polish government or the
Red Cross or is that citizens of Poland. I have
no idea which organization did that, but I can tell
you that I did not see a single Red Cross
or United Nations representative while I was in Poland. Okay. Interesting, Yeah,
they can be sometimes a little slow to react and yeah, yeah, okay,
So you then stayed in that hostel, you weren't able
(20:50):
to really talk to the people there because understandable, they
probably had a very very difficult twenty four hours and
we all had had Yeah, I mean, no talking was
being had pretty much. Did you get a sense when
as you met the people walking there, crossing the border,
et cetera, where people did they have plans to be gone?
From Ukraine. Were they thinking where can I stay for
(21:12):
a long period of time? Were they thinking I'm going
to wait this out in Poland and see? Um? I
was pleasantly surprised that a good half of the people
that I spoke to in that in that convoy, in
the refugee caravan had relatives either in Poland or elsewhere
in Europe. Um, And so they were all they had
(21:34):
all called their relatives and they had arranged them to
go to Western Europe and meet their relatives. Okay, yes,
and they've got a place and they're planning to at least. However,
another half of them have no plans whatsoever, and they're terrified.
And those are the refugees that I stayed with the
hotel last night. Um. Is that they're terrified and they
have no place to go. Yeah, right, and no one's
(21:56):
really provided them with one yet. No. Yeah, that's difficult.
And it seems like I don't have to be interesting
to see how the United States three acts because it
hasn't really done very much so far. Um. It's amazing.
I heard that the reason I crossed at that place
rather than any other places that I heard that the U. S.
Army was there and I did not see the U
(22:17):
S Army, and I searched for them and I did
not find them. So I don't know where the U
S is. Okay, Yeah, you haven't seen any any evidence
of like any seeing no sort of n POS or
government sort of aid for refugees yet then it's kind
of surprising. As I mentioned, I haven't seen any U
N representative, any Red Cross representative, any WHO representative. I
(22:40):
haven't seen any NGO or governmental representatives. I did see,
of course Polish government representatives at the border, but that
was about it, right, it said from Polish people. Do
you get a sense of sort of solidarity? How I
think talking about so it was actually amazing to say,
(23:00):
it was heartwarming to see the citizens of Freshman Dell
are now swamped. Their population has been doubled or tripled
by the incoming Ukrainian refugees, and yet they are showing
great amounts of solidarity. I actually attended a solidarity rally
today um where the citizens of Freshman Dill got together
and they said ukraine Is are our brothers and putin
(23:22):
us clearly in the wrong, and we will stand with them,
we will show solidarity with them, and that that was
hard warming to say. I talked with a few of
those Poles at that rally and they said, yeah, we
knew this was coming and we prepared for it and
we're ready to take in as many as is necessary. Yeah,
that's really nice to herrity that these people are sort
of showing solidarity with each other, in support with each other.
(23:43):
And yes, yeah, so when you were on your way west,
I presume that, like the conflict didn't catch up with you, right,
You weren't to be said, act like indirect fire or
you see any of that. No, However, there was about
fifty behind us a bombing. As I mentioned. We did
not hear it, but there were reports of the fighting
(24:05):
going on all the time. But it's not catch up
to us while we were in that h while we
were in that caravan, and um, it would have been
absolutely terrifying if it had. But I'm glad that it
did that, right. Yeah. And then so you've been there
for about a week. Had you previously been doing some
reporting in Ukraine. I've never done reporting in Ukraine before,
(24:26):
But when I came to Ukraine and the war had
not even started, I was mostly just doing interviews with
civilians about what they thought about the possibility of war,
about what they thought about the war, and don Bass
um most a lot of cultural stuff. It was kind
of boring. I mean not that not that war is
interesting or fun, but it was not really much of
a story um So. I was just doing interviews with
(24:48):
people about basic Ukrainian things, and then the war found
us so and it seemed to have come as much
a shock to them as it did to the rest
of us. As I mentioned, nobody was prepared for war
until about twenty four hours before it hit, and that's
when the Ukrainian government said, yes, there will be a war,
and everybody began sort of to have a sense of
(25:10):
urgency about them. Did you see any of the citizen
militias and citizens preparing for defense the people who decided
to stay. Yes, I didn't see any of the militias.
But I was went into a Ukrainian gun shopping Kiev
and there was a line almost off the door. People
were buying guns, um And I asked one of the
(25:31):
people on the line, why are you buying a gun?
And he said, if the Russians come, I want to
be prepared. So a lot of people are buying guns
privately in Kiev at least as of last week, okay,
so that they weren't wait for the government to supply
then they were supplying themselves with guns. I believe. I
believe the government supply was a rather um my sudden decision.
(25:53):
I don't think the ukraining people were counting on it.
And so they were supplying themselves and then buying like
like collectionkov To rifles, and we talked about hunting rifles
and yeah, you can't buy flashing cobs in the gun store.
They were buying sort of hunting rifles and shotguns Jesus. Okay, yeah, yeah,
really under equipped, all right, So they were just prepared
to trying to get anything they could get their hands
(26:13):
on to look after themselves and their families. Yeah. I
bought peper spray. Yeah better than nothing. Uh yeah, okay,
so yeah there was there was Did you see, like
the people you walked with with it, did families tend
to leave as a whole or did did some folks
so say I'm going to stay behind and fight, or
(26:34):
I'm going to stay behind to stay and look after
a house and you should leave. Didn't get the center
that the vast majority of people traveling were families as
a whole. There were very few single travelers or partial
families traveling. It was I think that people wanted to
stick together, and so it was the vast majority of
people traveling were families. Okay, yeah, yeah, so they all
(26:54):
stayed or left. Do you get a sense of how
many people you said about two thousand people at the border,
like of what protortion of the city decided to leave
for Poland? Not all the people that the border were
from leviv Um. A lot of them have been traveling
since that morning from Kiev, uh in other cities in
uh central western Ukraine. Um So, yeah, I was talking
(27:17):
to people at the border, and a lot of them
were from Kiev, A lot of them were from zephyr Ziza.
I'm pronouncing that wrong. A lot of them were from
turner Pill or Ivana, frankisk Um or Odessa and uh
so I would not have any sort of conjecture on
what percentage of the city. Also, still pretty early in
the crisis, uh because it was still the first day
(27:40):
and it was fewer than twenty four hours after the
invasion began. So I imagine the numbers are a lot
higher now. When you were getting us, right if you
were traveling, et cetera, where you like on what Apple?
(28:00):
What people on Twitter? Like, how are they getting news
of what was happening? Everybody, and absolutely everybody was completely
dark during the walk, um because I don't know why,
but there was no sense of cell reception, there was
no sense of data reception, there was no sense of
Internet connection at all during the walk. And so everybody
(28:21):
I met, we we asked, we asked everybody we met,
do you have any news? And they said no, do
you have any news? Um? So nobody had any news
until we got to the border. Some people had news,
but for about about sixteen hours we were completely in
the dark about what was going on. And that was
terrifying because when we left the invasion had just begun
(28:42):
and we didn't get to be updated on the first
half day. So yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, and then on
arrival you're faced with this news of this like sort
of blitzkre egl lifed right bombing and right yes, um,
I mean we we saw a little it of it
in the morning that day, well when we when we
(29:02):
started out, um, but it had really accelerated and amplified
by the time that we arrived um and the Ukrainians
were absolutely terrified at this because they did not realize
what happened on such a large scale. Yeah, I think
very few people did. Okay, imagine if it's in your
own country, it's petrifying. Were you there when the fighting
(29:23):
began in the Chernobyl exclusions? I know, were you in
Poland by then? When did the fighting began in Chernal?
I believe about twenty four hours after the fighting began,
big period. I was crossing in the Poland twenty four
hours after the fighting began, period, So I was probably
crossing into Poland when that fighting began. Okay. You know,
it's interesting to know, especially how sort of the older
(29:44):
people or people who have been alive, like the nuclear accidents,
you know. But it's wondering how I mean, I've been
talking to plenty of plenty of older people, and as
I mentioned, the older people especially were resigned to this
because during the Soviet times, during the cold for the
sort of thing was common, um, And so the older
people knew what was going on, and the younger people
(30:05):
were the ones who were more panicking. That's interesting. Yeah,
they said they've been raised with a fear of that
I suppose, right, and this happened in too, like this
is the biggest refugee crisis since nineteen eight nine, because
in nine nine, when all the republics fell in the
Warsaw Pact, so many people starched to the roads, and
(30:27):
so the older people were used to that kind of thing. Um,
But as I mentioned, the younger people were not so right, yeah, yeah,
and so yeah, it's different reactions, I guess. And it's
very young people obviously unable to understand what's going on,
and beyond their leaving their homes, which is said right,
and especially the little children had no idea what was
going on, and it was impossible to explain to them,
(30:50):
so nobody did, um. And so I can't imagine how
terrifying this must have been as a child, not knowing
why you had to walk dozens of hours in the
cold carrying everything had. Yeah, it's always the saddest thing
to see children in those refugee situations when we obviously
don't know what's going on and didn't do anything wrong.
And right, yea, hopefully they're all safe, Hopefully they're in Poland,
(31:12):
hopefully they can go to safe places. I made several
contexts during this trip. And as I mentioned, only one
of one of them has gone back to me, So
I hope the others get back to me soon. Yeah
that's tough, but you've got the sense of everyone since
they weren't turned back, per say, they just might be
sort of not in touch because their phones don't charged
(31:33):
or something like that. It's either their phones aren't aren't charged,
or in the men men's case, they were sent to
the East, or they're too busy trying to arrange accommodations
or food for themselves or something. I mean, everybody was
just very busy trying to survive. Yeah, so I don't
blame them if they don't, if they don't hop on
social media, Yeah, yeah, of course. And of course, yeah,
(31:56):
I did very very stressful time for everyone. Did you
did you hear of anyone who has been sent to
the east the second hand or like three people you
met people who are at the front already. Um, I
do not have any contacts of anybody who was sent
to the East. From what I understand, the Ukrainian Army
has a strict uh communication social media sort of policy,
(32:18):
and so none of these soldiers that I met one
wanted to talk to me. I did not talk to
any Ukrainian Army soldiers in uniform because they had a
very strict policy. They could not talk to me, and
too I could not get their contacts for much of
the same reason. Okay, so they didn't want to talk
to you, an, I didn't want to talk to anyone.
They were just looking for you know that, they were
just they were very stern and they did not want
(32:38):
to talk to anybody. So I talked to zero soldiers
in uniform during this experience. Okay, yeah, so where are
you now? You've you've gone further west west? Is that right?
That's right. I took a long bus ride to crack
Off today. Um, and so I'm now crack Off, Poland. Okay,
how folks dealing? Is it different there being a little
bit more distant. I already talked to a few people,
(33:01):
and uh, well it's a Saturday night. They're going out
to drink, and they they're saying, well, yeah, it's it's
terrible that this war is happening two fifty niles east
of us, but what are we supposed to do about it?
So they're going out and drinking. So it's this very
detached sense here and crack out. Not the same as
(33:22):
it was in freshmanvill Yeah. Interesting to people are living
their normal life and it's just it's a news item
for them. It's they're not worried about any potential spill
over a fallout, right, Okay, yeah, they're not worried. Nice
and well you do you plan to stay there? What's
what's next to you? So I actually just booked a
flight uh an hour ago. I'm going to be flying
(33:44):
back to the States on Marsh the first. Okay, great, yeah,
so you can. You can come back and presubably you're
like your US passible holders that you could just get.
That's how you go through being conscripted, etcetera. I am
not I'm not carrying the US pass right now. I'm
carrying an Italian passport um because I'm also a citizen
(34:05):
of Italy and I was told before I left by
some friends in the intelligence community that it would look
significantly less suspicious to carry an EU passport than an
US passport. So I bought the U passport. Nice. Yeah,
and then you can travel free d d yes, yeah yeah, yeah.
Do you know if Yukrainian people can creble once? Because
once they're in Poland. Can they then move through the
(34:26):
Shangan's own freely. Ukraine is not a member of the EU,
They're not a member of Shangan. I do not believe
they can move really, right. I just wondering, like, yeah,
they would be I don't know how their passports would
be checked if they're going across some of those land
boarders that I think. I do know that this was
it was an emergency situation yesterday, and so that's why
(34:47):
they work just very personally checked, but I'm sure it's
strictor usually. Yeah, I wonder what they would be like
if they tried to exit Poland or if Hill right,
I don't know what's going to happen to them, No,
I don't think. I'm guessing there's been no communication of
that that you've seen, either right leg of what they
should do or how to apply for asylum or anything
like that. I have talked to a few people. They
(35:08):
say that they're banking on those countries being empathetic to refugees,
and I understand. I think that countries will be empathetic
to refugees. Yeah, yeah, said, do you certainly hope they will?
So they're just gonna hope that those countries, the ones
who don't have a country to go to. You get
the senswer Yeah, that they'll they'll apply for asylum wherever
they can find a safe place. That's right, um, And
(35:32):
I believe that countries Western European countries that have been
very vocally pro Ukraine recently, UM, will take them in.
So I think that they'll they'll be safe. Yeah, that's
good to hear. I know I've seen estimates of up
to five million refugees, which would be I mean, Germany
absorbed a million people from Syria, right, it's not Yeah,
(35:53):
it's not impossible for Western European countries do that at all,
but it will, but it would still be a catastrophic crisis,
the worst than I needed. So yeah, I have to
hope it doesn't get to that. You get the sense
people are still flowing across the border. I know you're
a bit yes, I think for me, I mean, it's
weird because you want to believe that what you experienced
(36:13):
and what the people around you've experienced was a one
time thing, that it was a one time incident, that
it was one caravan. But this is happening constantly and
it will continue to happen constantly for weeks. Yeah, the
trains and across the border, things like that that people
can take or is it solely yes. So when when
I said that, I went to the train station and
(36:33):
the leave and there were no trains, what was really
happening is, yes, there were trains, but all the trains
until March March were booked so okay, so yeah, people
can't take those trains across that kind of thing. Uh,
if they tried to book right now, they won't be
able to find a booking for a while. Okay, they're
already booked up. And by the way, here in crack Out, Um,
(36:55):
the first two hostels that I went to, the first
two places to stay that I went to, were all
booked up. And I asked why and he said Ukrainian refugees.
So there are Ukrainian refugees here and crack Out Okay, Yeah,
people are moving for it. I'm sure a lot of
people want to get far aways they can. Yeah, so
people are just constantly moving lest right now. Yeah, but
they have friends of a family that they try to
get to it because yeah, and I've been hearing the
(37:17):
Ukrainian language just constantly on my trip so that's interesting too. Yeah, yeah,
thanks for that. It's a really really interesting insight. Is
there anything else you think from your experience that people
ought to hear about? Um? No, I believe I've told
you everything. I've I've really told the story dozens of
(37:37):
times since it happened, and I really hope that I
hit all the all the right notes here. UM. If
you if you had to tell anything to the people
who were reading or listening to this, Um, Ukraine really
needs weapons, yes, but they also need humanitarian aid. When
I was walking all that distance with all those people,
there was not a single sense of food being provided
(38:00):
to anyone, water being provided to anyone. There was no
chance to go to the toilet, there was often no
chance to sit down. If we could give even a
chance for these people to eat something, to drink something,
to have a minute of solace, UM, that would mean
the world to them. And so I think that we
need to provide humanitarian aid to the refugees as soon
as possible. And you you said you didn't see any
(38:22):
organizations you'd suggest people donate to that you you didn't
see any of that? Is there anyone you can know?
And I don't know. I haven't actually done the research,
and that I probably should. Um, but I I know
that the Welcome committee in Poland were private citizens. They
were not part of any energy or anything. They were
private citizens. Are welcoming awesome? Yeah, I've seen some of
(38:45):
them organizing on Facebook, so alter I maybe linked to
some of those or something like that. So people going
to support right and all right, and then is there
anything like you'd like to to plug, like do you
have a you have a Twitter? Right? Is there anything
else you could tell us what your Twitter is? Um?
I mean, so the Twitter that I'm using for this,
which you've probably seen as a temporary one, it was
not only to cover this crisis. I guess my private
(39:07):
twitter plugged that. Which is you've seen that as well, probably,
Um it's just my name. Um, yeah, I guess just
plugged that. And uh, I mean thank you for everything. No,
of course, Um it's Mannie Routta with two T s, right, Yes,
m A r O T t A great. Okay, we
got that, and yeah, thank you very much. Thanks for
(39:28):
taking the time to talk. I appreciate a pretty difficult
couple of days to get some rest. And if there's
anything else in any developments, please do let me give
me a shout tyler. Thank you? All right, cheeers mate?
Do you have a goody me? It could happen here
as a production of cool Zone Media. For more podcasts
from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool zone Media
(39:51):
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You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated
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Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
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Robert Evans
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