January 25, 2023 • 45 mins
Robert asks Garrison about what’s been going down in Atlanta the past week, and the police killing of Tortuguita.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
Welcome back to it could happen here a podcast that
is today about it happening here or or more particularly
in Atlanta. So so it's here if you happen to
live in Atlanta, Georgia. Otherwise it is it is still
happening there. Um. And I don't actually know much about
this because, like the rest of you, I have been
(00:26):
watching from the sidelines since a forest defender was killed
by the Georgia State Police. But someone who has been
in Atlanta for most of the last week is Garrison Davis. Garrison, Hi, Hi,
it's been a long week. Yeah, it sounds like it.
You uh had just gotten back from c e S
when all this happened and booked, booked the next flight
(00:48):
and flew out and we're on the ground during uh,
some of the immediate protests that followed news about the death.
Do you do you want to just kind of take
it from here. Yeah, So we're gonna be putting together
kind of a more in depth thing similar to my
similar to my on the Ground to Defend the Atlanta
(01:09):
Forest episodes from last May. That is that's that's gonna
come out, But you know, it'll take a little bit
because I'm doing a lot of interviews, doing a lot
of on the ground stuff here. Um, but this is
important enough that I feel like it's it's worth that
it was. It was worth mentioning something a bit sooner,
which is why we're recording here today just to kind
of give a one oh one on what's been going
(01:31):
on ever since Wednesday. So Wednesday, January there was a
raid on the Wollawnee Forest or the South River Forest
in Atlanta where people have been currently staying in encampments
for the past like a year and a half in
opposition of this upcoming proposed police training facility to be
built on this same land. So Wednesday morning there was
(01:54):
this raid. Um. There's a few things different about this raid.
One it seemed to be in some ways kind of
led by the Georgia State Patrol. Um. This is, uh,
you know, a state, a state run police that has
not been in this force before. Other raids have been
coordinated between a Decabb County police in Atlanta police. So
(02:16):
the SWAT team was was unfamiliar with the forest, they
had not been in there before. There was there was
other police on on site. This was an inter agency thing.
There was It does seem like there was Atlanta police
here as well. But this started at around eight am
and then at around nine am we got word that uh,
a forest defender was shot and killed by it seems
(02:39):
like in an estate patrol officer that they are not
releasing the name of nor are they releasing the name
of one other officer who was injured. UM and George.
Georgia State Patrol claims that they were shot during this
raid as well. Police by Day Yes, police police claim
that they were shot by the person that the Georgia
(03:02):
State Patrol killed. There's very little information about this UM
no body cameras. They have said that there's no no
body cam, which does seem consistent because Georgia State Patrol
are not are not required to wear body cam. So
that obviously hit a lot of people pretty hard because
this is um to our knowledge, the first like you know,
(03:24):
environmental ist protester to be killed by police. It's the
first fatality that we've had in the in this in
this movement here in Atlanta. And for the record, it
is still deeply unclear what happened. It's certainly not impossible
that this person fired first on the police officer, but
(03:44):
it's it's also incredibly important to note that there is
no evidence of this that's been presented. The only evidence
that the police have presented is a photo of a
of a pistol on the ground. UM. And then they've
made the very weasily word to claim that UM ballistics
testing has shown that the bullet that struck the officer
(04:07):
was consistent with the gun that they're saying with the
individual they killed had. And all that means said it
was nine millimeter. That was the same caliber, right, a
caliber for which there are tens of millions of guns
in this country. UM. Most ballistic science is in terms
of like identifying bullets to guns is actually nonsense. There
(04:27):
have been massive lawsuits about this, the FBI, UM has
has this is a bigger topic than than we can
get into today. But it's very shady. And all that
they actually said is the cop was shot with a
nine millimeter and hey, look we found a nine millimeter.
Not interestingly enough, we have confirmed that this gun was fired. UM.
(04:48):
So very anyway, so no one knows what's happened. It's
it's it's shady. I mean, so I've I got I
got here like less than twenty four hours later. A
lot of people on the ground have been kind of
shared their memories of the person that was killed. So
the person was named their Their forest name was Tortuguita,
which means little turtle. Their name that has been released
(05:10):
is uh Manuel Um. I'm just gonna I'm gonna call
them tortuga or torch Um. Sure, there's been people of
you know, spent a lot of the past few days
talking about tort remembering tort Um, the types of things
that that they advocated for, the types of things that
they would talk about. So we'll we'll we'll get into
(05:31):
some of the more kind of specifics of that of
that of that later. UM. But a number of other
journalists have talked about their conversations with with towards including
um the fact that they evinced a pretty principled um
and and extensive commitment to non violence UM, at least
(05:52):
in interviews. This is something they had been quoted on
by an other journalists a number of times. And this
is something I've heard a lot of people bring up.
Is that is that Toward was was a believer in
in non violence and would and would talk about and
advocate that. The other the other kind of angle to
this and I'm not taking a position one way or
another here, but this is something that I think it's
(06:12):
important to mention is that I also don't want to
remove the agency of a person if they did decide
to do if I, if I did if they did
decide to do this, Because the other thing I've heard
a lot about Towards is that they always made thoughtful decisions,
in the meaning that they put thought into everything they did. Um,
(06:33):
they were they acted strategically. They did not they did
not put people in unnecessary danger. They would not do
something if they thought it would endanger other people. They
always acted with thought and that that that could include
if you feel like your life is under immediate threat. Um,
what what actually happened Wednesday morning? We will probably never know.
(06:55):
We will never know the exact series of events. Yeah,
and it's and in some ways like that's we can
we should respect Towards either way, Um, because they made
a decision that they thought that was right in the moment,
or they were just flat out murdered by police. Um.
(07:18):
So that's that's kind of the gist of of what
happened Wednesday morning. Throughout the rest of the day, their
police continued their raid on the forest. The last the
last tree sitter was eventually taken down like twenty hours
later after the raids. That someone was stuck up in
a tree for over twenty hours, no food or water. UM,
(07:39):
police agitating them the entire time, and many all of
all the other people arrested. I think a total around
seven got charged with the domestic terrorism among other charges.
So that's pretty significant. UM. That is people. That's that
and we will circle back to this to this point
a little bit later. So that is that is what
(08:01):
happened on Wednesday. Uh, you know, the first few hours
after the shooting, people were unsure of of who actually
got killed. It was it was hard, it was hard
to say. UM. Other force defenders who were in the
area did report from that what they heard there was
a pretty a pretty quick single firing of of guns,
(08:21):
multiple guns going off in a pretty quick succession. There
was no like one shot and then seconds later a
bunch of other shots. It was all kind of one event.
This is reports from people on the ground. This is
what this is what they've said. UM. A lot of
a lot of people speculate that this could have been
friendly fire. If if this, if this, if this, if
this other patrol officer was was, um, you know, got shot.
(08:44):
They went to the hospital. So it doesn't it doesn't
police officer had got a bullet inside of them. Um.
But obviously there's a number of ways in which that
could have occurred. And I don't find it. I certainly,
I don't think it's constue oratory at all, conspiratorial at
all to say they have not presented evidence. It is
(09:04):
certainly possible that a bunch of cops wandering through the forest,
somebody would have a negligent discharge, you know, somebody would
just pant. You know, there's enough we and again, as
you've stated, we just we probably will never know precisely
what happened. Um. And that's that's that's the feeling on
the ground. A lot of people coming to terms with
the fact that we will never know, a lot of people,
(09:24):
you know, thinking that it's you know, very likely chance
of his friendly fire. Other people you know, trying to
trying to emphasize the fact that, you know, we will
never know if we cannot say one way, they or another.
But it's also important not to minimize someone's autonomy, especially
since they're no longer around to advocate for themselves or
their actions. Yeah, let's go, let's have a let's have
(09:48):
an ad break, and then we'll kind of continue on
to what happened in the in the days after we're back, Garrison,
please continue to take it away. So the late the
(10:09):
day of the shooting, there was a vigil before we
found out who it was. There was a vigil set
up at Little Five Points in Atlanta, and then the
next two days there was, uh, there was a vigil
space created at Entrenchment Creek Park or Woolani People's Park. Uh.
This is an area of the forest that's too that's
on like the eastern side, and this is the section
(10:32):
that is currently being sought as a place to expand
Black Hole Movie Studios. So this is this is separate
from the actual Cops City element of this, but it's
still part of the defend the Atlanta Forest side of
this because this is all the same forest. They're just
kind of split um down the middle by this by
this power line cut. So this section of the park
(10:55):
is on a section of land that's contestedly owned by
Ryan Millsap, the guy runs Black Hall Studios. I first
arrived at at the Willini People's Park on Friday for
the for like the more public facing vigil and I
just just kind of I want to talk a bit
about the park because this is such a I think
(11:16):
it's such a solid encapsulation of what's changed since last
time I've been in Atlanta. So, last time I was
in Atlanta, there was the Muscogee Creek. People were traveling
from my belief, Oklahoma to Atlanta what what is now
Atlanta what what used to be Muskogee land um, And
(11:36):
they were they were like giving talks and presentations about
the forest inside the section of forest that that the
defend the land of forest stuff is about. And I
went to one of those events at in Trenchman Creek Park.
It was green trees all around, there was a nice gazebo,
there was a there was a piano inside the gazebo,
(11:56):
people handing out food. A little kitchen was said up.
Pretty pretty picturesque, it was. It was pretty. It was
pretty great. So then when I pulled up to this
same spot a few days ago, it was like apocalyptic.
The gazebo has been completely torn down and is laying
in shambles in the front of the parking lot, like
(12:18):
for everyone to see. The destroyed remains, all of the
all of like the the the concrete sidewalks and stuff
have all been torn up and it's just scattered everywhere.
It's now it's just it's just a massive mud pit.
It's it's such a different place. Um. And you know
when you when you get there for a vigil, the
(12:40):
moods not cheery obviously. Um. There was people you know,
sharing stories of Torrents, singing songs and you know, building
this like almost like a vigil shrine. Um. So that
was like the first the first big thing Friday night. UM.
(13:00):
So a lot of people talked about their memories of
Tort and you know the different things they contributed to,
not just to defend the Atlanta Forest stuff, but stuff
across the entire South. They did mutual aid work, um
and stuff to secure housing for people in Florida. They
helped defend drag shows in uh in Tennessee. They they
(13:22):
did they did stuff all all across the South. And
you know, they had they had allies and accomplices from
across the South, you know, talking about how great Tort
was to work with the types of solidarity that Tort
would show too. Too many many different people So that
was Friday, and everyone was kind of you could kind
(13:47):
of feel the almost calm before the storm. In some ways,
people didn't people didn't really know what was going to
happen in the coming days, but there was there was
a sense of like eerie quietness. And then Saturday happens. Saturday,
there is this protest planned meeting in Underground Atlanta, which
is a spot in downtown Atlanta kind of on this
(14:08):
south side. I got there for this protest there. Initially
there was people from this like socialst organization called PSL.
They they tried to lead the march one way. UM,
the crowd rejected their authority and was like, no, we're
not going to go to the Federal District, We're not
(14:28):
going to go to the CNN Center, which are places
notorious for getting kettled at UM and they and people
autonomously redirected the crowd UM North towards the and and
North is also just so happens to be the direction
of the Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, the pseudo union lobbying
group that is that is behind the big push for
(14:51):
for Cops City. UM. But before this march started, there
was similarly, you know, people giving speeches about tort people
not not speeches, like people just sharing memories of torts.
So people so that tork can like live on um
in some way. So people can you know, know about
them now that they're no longer around, you know, people
from a local medic collective talking about you know, towards
(15:15):
towards involvement in that and how much toward cared about,
you know, helping other people. So this this this march
starts up um. It was funny. There was a few
blocks away from this march location. They're just so happened
to be like a single police car in the street
(15:35):
but like parked on the wrong side of the road.
And this police car sees this march coming and it's
like kind of freaking out. It doesn't know what to do.
It drives in reverse for like like two blocks, trying
to find a spot to turn around as the marches
like increasingly getting closer, Like you could just because you
could just feel you could feel the anxiety of the
(15:57):
cop inside this car. He they do not want to
get surrounded by a crowd. Eventually they're able to back
up enough to turn around and they get out. They
are they're zooming away. If you do not want to
be anywhere near this. And short shortly after people arrive
at the Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, windows spontaneously shatter UM.
(16:22):
As as is expected, a few bank windows also get
UM get get broken. What Wells Fargo being one of them? Yes,
R I P. Bank windows of Wells Fargo being another one.
Wells Fargo is a major contributor to the Atlanta Police Foundation.
So this happens. Two cop cars that are just you know,
(16:45):
blocks away, UM, that are sitting completely empty, get there,
get their windows smashed. You know, there's people, there's there's
fireworks going off around the crowd. UM. There's there's this
one clip that I that I saw from some some
some group that was live streaming UM that there was.
There was a few a few officers like stationed beside
(17:09):
the Atlantic Police Foundation and as soon as they as
soon as they heard fireworks, they again similarly just like
ran away as fast as they could. They were not
equipped to deal with UM, to deal with us. Fireworks
were they were the main thing they seem to be
scared of. So two to two cop cars together winter smashed, UM.
(17:30):
Fireworks going around. March continues goes for about a few
more blocks and Uh, then corker's notice police police are
starting to come. Police are approaching, approaching the crowd. Head on,
please start rushing towards the crowd. Um. One they they tackle,
tackle a few people holding a banner. Um, I think
(17:53):
they they people. People scatter. The most of the crowd
gets away. Most of the crowd splits up in two
into two groups. The largest chunk is able to move
away from police presence. There's you know, people chanting, be water,
you know, all of all the stuff. So most most
people do successfully get away. The smaller, smaller section of
(18:14):
people split off another direction. Cops follow. They are able
to tackle and arrest a few a few more people
in this in this group. In the end, it looks
like there was six people arrested. Um, most most people
got away. After all these arrests are happening, people start
noticing something that in the background a few a few
blocks previous to where people were marching. Uh, it looks
(18:37):
there looks to be a glowing police car. Uh so
we we we look back, and sure enough in an
Atlanta police car is up in flames, um, complete, completely
completely glowing, huge, huge flames. So so as that happens,
more and more cops show up. This is where like
(18:58):
the cops now are like taking over downtown. Um, you know,
cops with with air fifteen or a er style rifles
are are going around staring, starting to do patrols. So
this is like then the night is over at this point.
Now it's time for like people to scatter and leave,
which is what people did. The the aftermath of this
(19:21):
is super fascinating and unfortunate, if not unexpected. Uh, you know,
there's been very little statements about the police killing of
an of of Tortoquita of you know, environmental activist, um
forest defender, but very very very little statements addressing this
this matter at all. A huge flood of statements, however,
(19:44):
exte seeming to be extremely concerned that like a few
windows were broken and that a cop car got torched.
This this is and you know this, this is this
is less than a week after Martin Luther King day. Um,
this is you know, this is. The big quote was
(20:06):
that the police chief a few hours later declared that
breaking windows and starting fires is terrorism, which is a
wild thing for a police chief to say. As the
mayor stands behind nodding integration It's one of the most
fascist things that we've that has that has occurred in
the United States. You cannot understate like the severity of yeah,
(20:30):
like this, the severity of this, of this change in
the types of framing by the state to describe civil disobedience,
to describe property destruction, to describe vandalism as a form
of of of domestic terrorism is is appalling. Um. I mean,
(20:50):
if if this, if this holds up, then in states
where this is done, there is effectively no longer any
right to protest. Yeah. And I mean, and we'll get
into some some of the details of this in a bit,
even in this in this episode, um. And I think
the the other side of this is that this is
something that I've heard people talk about here on the ground,
(21:11):
is that if if breaking windows is terrorism, right, if
if if if the destruction of inanimate objects this terrorism,
what what exactly is destroying an entire forest like this is?
This is like the juxtaposition that people are dealing with
on the ground right now. So the end the result
(21:34):
of this is that we got six people who not
six people who were to be clear arrested completely at random.
This This was very clear police were tackling anyone they
could get their hands on. They were not doing targeted arrests.
They were not going after specific individuals who they suspected
of of like actually doing crimes. Um. They were they
(21:54):
were tackling random people, as is kind of usual for
these sorts of things. But they have gotten a series
of ridiculous charges UM, riot, arson, interviewing, interfering with government property, um,
and also domestic terrorism and domestics. So this is domestic terrorism,
not even for people that are like in the forest,
just people protesting out on the street. Um, windows were broken.
(22:20):
When windows were broken, there's no evidence of this. The
bail hearings were today as of being recorded. This is
this is Monday, but bail hearings were today. The judge,
the judge for the hearings specifically said that these hearings
are not to litigate the facts of the issue. What
actually happened doesn't matter. There's there's obviously no evidence to
(22:41):
support that any of these people arrested did any crimes.
There's there's no evidence that that shows that the specific
people arrested did anything beyond marching in the street, and
that does not matter. That that that simply does does
not matter. The brutality is the point in this case
to two people have had their bail set at three
(23:04):
hundred and fifty five THO dollars each, So that's over
seven thousand dollars for just two people's bail. The other
four people arrested were deemed to be from out of
state by the judge and then thus a flight risk,
including people that are just like less than ninety minutes
away in Tennessee. And again this this is like where
(23:25):
people are born, there's this, there's this, there's this sense
that like people no longer have freedom to choose where
they live, that people like no longer have any freedom
of movement, that they no longer have the autonomy to
go to different places. You know. This is this is
like in line with the outside agitator angle that's been
being pushed by governments and media ever since, especially since
(23:48):
this is in line with that sort of stuff. But
because these people were deemed non local or a flight risk,
these people are not getting any bond at all. These
people are going to be held in jail in definitely
it could this, This could literally be years. The legal
system is so slow and being held in prison in
(24:10):
jail for for years with no evidence presented that you
did literally anything wrong. Um. I've talked with a lot
of people, people from Solidarity Fund, which will I'll mention
here at the end, and and you know, just just
people around like what they're you know, with people are
(24:30):
getting arrested with no evidence and getting you know, indefinite
time in prison, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars
to be released, like the the the obvious abusive power
by the state, um, the sheer audacity, and uh, you know,
the extreme danger that if these, if these are able
(24:51):
to to to stick and hold, is incredibly frightening for
any any kind of future, um, any future civil rights
movement at all like this. It might say that it's
the strategic use of terror in order to achieve a
political One might say that, and I mean, it's we're
(25:11):
in Atlantic, the streets they're marching on. There's banners of
Martin Luther King hanging above us, like it's it's incredibly frustrating.
The Solidarity Fund, which we interviewed on the show literally
days before that, well with the episode released days before
the killing of Tortoquita. But the allancea Solidarity Fund is
providing both legal support and UM and and and bail
(25:33):
for people arrested for political actions. The previous amount needed
to bail out people was over a hundred thousand dollars,
which is a lot of money, and now just just
for two people, it's seven thousand more dollars. So the
Atlantis Solarity Fund desperately needs funds to continue supporting people
(25:55):
and to continue resisting state repression. UM. We'll talk about
this more once I have my Deep Died episodes out
on this topic. But it's it's crucial that that if
if if anyone cares about people's right to protest, to
people's people's you know, ability to resist state violence. UM,
(26:17):
then it's it's absolutely crucial that that people support the
Solidarity Fund right now. Ah. Just just today I went
to another another kind of vigil um at Emery College
here in Atlanta. More more people were sharing stories of
tort um. One person was reading out a letter that
they sent to sent to their UM comrades in Italy
(26:42):
who are setting up a vigil as well. There's been
a good amount of international support, as I've seen vigils
from Germany, UM from Italy. There's been there's been events, demos, rallies, UM,
direct actions and vigils all across the United States UM
about to defend the Alanta Forest and about the killing
of Tortoquita people. People here absolutely do appreciate the solidarity.
(27:10):
And the other thing people are saying is that, I mean,
all of these tactics are meant to scare people away
from the idea of protesting, and people are still needed
on the ground here. This fight is not This fight
is not over. UM, this is this is not this
is not the end. You know, Tactics may have to change,
tactics may have to shift, people may have to approach
things from from um, you know, different angles. But it's
(27:34):
not over, and there's there's people have said that there's
still a need or you know, for support, rules, for
people on the ground, for people to be in Atlanta,
because it's not done. I mean, I think there's a
(27:56):
lot of sentiment on the left that's happening in the
Atlanta Forest defense is probably the most important radical action
going on in the country right now. And I think
there's a few reasons for that. Um, not just the
fact that the forest that is going to be torn
down for cops city is a crucial part of the
city of Atlanta's tree cover, and that all of this
(28:19):
ties into both the impossibility of actually combating climate change
under the present system and the complicity of the police
in making it impossible to combat that or even to
mitigate it in many cases. But but I think what
you've gotten to is probably the most direct the most
(28:41):
directly frightening thing about what's going on in Atlanta, and
the thing that's most relevant to the future of any
kind of resistance in this country, which is, um, the
the gloves are are coming off right, the the this
is this is not going to be the last time
that states secure city forces use the fact that terrorism
(29:05):
has a special place in American law, and that crimes
that are deemed to be terrorism um open up the
ability of the government to act in ways that they
normally are not supposed to be able to act. Um,
Like that is going to be It's not going to
be just forest defenders that gets used on. It's going
to be anyone who ever carries out any kind of
(29:27):
act of protest that has a chance of upsetting the
balance of power um in this country. Like that's that's
where this is headed. And UM, it's a bummer. Do
you want to talk a little bit about the role
of the media in this, because that is something that
(29:47):
is I'm certain going to be of We just had
a thing today where some weirdo lefties on the True
and on subreddit decided and someone on Twitter decided to
accuse me of getting a bunch of people in Atlanta
arrested for terrorism because I interviewed them on camera. I've
I've never interviewed anyone in Atlanta, I said, I simply
(30:07):
have never worked there. Um, I'm not sure where the
rumors started, but it's it's reigniting this kind of debate
about it seems it seems like tanky stuff. It's it's
it's it's it's nonsense, but it has reignited. And I
saw this onthing. It could happen here, subred people talking
about like, um, obviously you know this is nonsense, but
it is a you know, looking at these terrorism charges,
it's a simple fact that activists should never talk to press.
(30:32):
And um, obviously a lot of these arrests had nothing
to do with anyone talking to the media. Like folks
were present at a riot and the cops were tackling folks.
That's that's nobody. But the cops's fault. But there's a
there's a there's a conversation to be had about what
is the what is the smart balance in terms of
(30:54):
getting pr and getting press coverage and getting word of
mouth about a radical movement and the fact that doing
that will inevitably ramp up pressure Like that is that
is a reality that when when radical activists get attention
from the media, the state cracks down. Now does that
(31:15):
mean that the media is responsible for the movement getting
cracked down? Or does it simply mean that the cops
judge whether or not something's a threat by the amount
of press that it's getting. You know, the the this
is this is an ongoing like thing people are going
to be talking about in in a lot of ways,
it's a continuation of conversations people were having in But
(31:36):
I'm interested in because when you win over there. We
had a little a few hours of debate after it
became clear that the cops had killed a forest defender
over like, Okay, what's the right thing to do? Should
should Garrison head over to Atlanta? Um? Should we have
some boots on the ground for this? Because you've been
covering it for so long and one of the things
you pointed out is that there was a call for
(31:59):
media coverage from people who were on the ground in Atlanta. Yes,
this is something I will get born into when I
go in depth with this for an upcoming episode, probably
probably probably a two partter um. That's this is a
conversation that people are constantly having in Atlanta. This is
a conversation I've been having with people NonStop ever since
coming here. Ever since before coming here, I've you know,
(32:21):
this is something I don't want to just parachute into
someone else's city. I had conversations with multiple people before
before coming over. There's a few aspects to this. The
amount of people doing stuff, And you know, how many
people are in the forest not a not a giant
number of people. There's not hundreds of people living in
the woods. There's there's not there's there's not there's not
(32:42):
tons of people. Um. Uh. An intentional media strategy has
been a part of this movement since the beginning. Um,
even among the instructionary anarchists who are here. Uh. This
is this has been something that people have been you know,
working on as as a part of a decentralized movement,
(33:03):
having conversations about uh. There's been a lot of there's
been coverage in the Rolling Stone that people here seem
to be pretty happy with. UM, yeah, it was very
and the Guardian also published people have like, people have
been pretty happy in the article. People have been very
pretty happy with coverage from the Guardian. Um, there's a
people have been pretty happy with some stuff from a
(33:25):
J Plus. Um. People have been um decently happy with
the work that I've done on this. But based on
many conversation, dozens and dozens of conversations I have I've
had with people here, UM, ultimately I don't for what
(33:45):
for what cops are doing in the forest. I don't
think there seems to be a clear correlation between media coverage,
happening of stuff of of you know, the movement, and
cops response to the forest. There doesn't, there does, There's
no linked timeline there. Cops are doing stuff in the
forest because they want the forest cleared so they can
build their police training the police training facility. From what
(34:07):
I've talked with people, the amount of pressure that has
been caused by media covering the forest has not only
elongated the construction process, elongated the the amount stuff that
they're that they're able to do it's it is, it
has it has made it harder because this is this,
this is not a very popular proposal. Even even before
the encampments started, it was estimated that like people in
(34:30):
Atlanta were not for this, We're not for the construction
of this facility. So I think people people make a
lot of intentional media choices. That's not to say that
there isn't also UM intentionally harmful actors who are trying
to frame this as Atlanta burning down Atlanta and disorder
Antifa taking over sections of Atlanta. That is absolutely another
(34:54):
part of it. But there's a very people here have
a very clear distinction between between bad actors, between people
who are you know, providing accurate, fair coverage of what's
going on UM, and then you know people who are
just out to profit, which is you know, like a
lot of like local TV channels. UM. There's there. I
think stuff that happened on the protests on Saturdays is
(35:16):
a good example. There's this far right account that I'm
not going to name, UM at least not yet. I might.
I might talk about it in the future. UM who
you know, tries to collect information on on protesters they
had there, They have someone on the ground two films.
They also a really good aggregate of like random people's
instagram and TikTok's or snapchats of you know, filming filming
(35:37):
people from unfortunate angles. Um, the local local TV like Fox,
like the like the local Fox news station, you know,
tries to get as much sensational footage of crimes as possible,
and you know, people people, to the best their ability,
well you know, try to try to block that off
with like umbrellas if they see that happening, but you know,
you can it's it's met. There's definitely a clear tension
(36:02):
that people in the movement do not want the media
narratives around this to solely be decided by the state
and be decided against people who are in clear opposition
to them. That is, that is absolutely something that people
are putting and putting attention in. Uh. They just that's
because that that creates a lot of really really harmful scenarios.
(36:24):
Because there's the state itself is already a pretty powerful
propaganda machine. Already, a lot of local news just regurgitates
state talking points. Right, this is the idea of the
fourth estate. There is does seem to be a pretty
a distinction between stuff like the fourth Estate and stuff
like the derivative idea of the fifth estate of being
more of like the people's voice for for for for
(36:46):
these for these sorts of movements. Also in that vein
there's stuff like the Atlanta People's Press, which is like
decentralized media collective UM, run by a lot of like
rad people who who who helped to coordinate media coverage,
who helped to coordinate UM stuff with I mean they have,
they have worked with people, They've worked with us on
(37:08):
our on the on the history of the old Atlanta
prison farm. So I would say there's a lot of
thought put into media strategy UM, and not like in
like a Libby like optics way, but like actual effective
media strategy that will improve material conditions and will help
push the goals of the movement forward, the goal being
(37:32):
that the construction of Cops City does does not continue.
So there's a lot of thought going into that and
they and that is viewed as another like that that
is another wing of of the effort. Right, There's there's
stuff like the encampments. There's stuff like sabotage, there's stuff
like protests, There's stuff like you know, like a a
very above board stuff, you know that like very uh,
(37:54):
you know, like a above grand organizations will do like
you know right in camp Haynes calling campaigns and media
strategy is another angle of this because to completely give
up the public perception of what's going on to the
state is seen as a bad thing. So, but this
is this is absolutely a contentious topic. I think people
(38:17):
in Atlanta have a lot of nuanced conversations about this,
and media stuff is handled with a lot more intention
here than it has been in the Pacific Northwest. Um,
that is my that is my subjective opinion. But based
on based on it's a smaller community, so I think
maybe it's easier. It does seem like there's more solidarity
(38:39):
within the community and a shared vision. I wouldn't say
that's true. There is the community is forced to reinforce itself.
It is small enough that it cannot treat people as disposable. Um,
it needs to maintain the people that it has, and
so people work through problems, People work through conflicts and
ways to actually resolve it and keep going to build
everyone up and make them stronger. There's a shared community
(39:01):
space which i've I've I've been to a few times. Um.
And I think even just something like that is so
is so useful in being able to actually keep something
that resembles a community. You see a lot of anarchists,
um talk about how like community isn't a real thing,
there isn't actually community, um, you know. Or and in
(39:23):
a lot of places, I would say that's that's true.
A lot of places are just click driven, um you know, uh,
scene drama it it honestly gets towards or like interesting
conflict if if you don't want use sword drama. Um.
Whereas circular firing squad type ship. Yeah. Whereas here there
is such a feeling of actual community like that that
(39:45):
actually is a thing here because people are forced to
foster it. We're in the South, We're surrounded where you know,
you're you're surrounded by a lot of people who want
to hurt you. Um. Atlanta is the most surveilled city.
There's so many different police forces. There's a police force
for Faulting Counting, the police force for De Cab County
is the police force for Atlanta. There's the Georgia State Patrol.
There's the Georgia Buer of Investigation. There's the Georgia Department
(40:07):
of Homeland Security. There's so many people, so many agencies
are involved in this. There's so much, so much outwards
um threats to people that you really are forced to
keep people, uh, keep people close and and trust the
people around you because the consequences are quite dire. Um.
So people take things very seriously and they put a
(40:28):
lot of thought into into a lot of into a
lot of things. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean that
that also jells with my own experience in the South. Right,
it's it's easier to find communities of people who are
um doing anything kind of radical because there's that that
(40:51):
bunker mentality, right, You're under siege, You're surrounded on all sides,
and um, you know that that's very different when you
go to a place where there is kind of more
like what what would be in other places, devancy is
more than norm um. And yeah, I guess that that
is probably has a lot to do with the fact
that this forest Defense has so far been so successful
(41:15):
in delaying the construction of this facility which it which
it has construction construction deadlines continue to have been passed
and been passed and been passed. It has the very
least showed that stuff like this can be resisted and
significantly delayed. And at this point they're projecting construction won't
be complete for about four more years. And again these
(41:37):
deadlines keep getting pushed back and back, and that is
really what the movement is trying to do, keep these
deadlines getting pushed back and back until they just give
up on the project or try to put it somewhere else.
And if they try to put someone and if they
try to put it somewhere else, then the forest was defended.
But then there's still the top cop city aspect of
being like, yeah, it can go somewhere else, but we
we don't want it there at all. And then at
that point the movement would change, you know, very significantly.
(42:01):
But in terms of the defend the Atlanta Force aspect
of this, right, the whole goal is to make to
make this as unenticing as possible UM. And there's a
multitude of strategies involved in that UM including stuff like propaganda,
madget prop media strategy, sabotage, direct action, call in campaigns,
stuff about pressuring the construction agencies, all all those sort
(42:24):
of things. That's so much more because what you're talking
about is is what we call in sort of conflict
studies a strategy of friction, right, um, and and so
much there's so always so much focus on kind of
these like we had in Portland and twenty these like
grand moments that are are very visually spectacular of resistance,
(42:45):
but what actually what actually wins Because the state has
the ability to take a lot of hits. It is
a it is a durable force. And if you're going
up against a durable force, the only way to win
victories is to be durable yourself and to wear away
at them. It's it's friction, um And I think that's like,
(43:08):
that's still the winning play is to keep up pressure.
It's just the kinds of pressure, especially now that they've
cleared out the tree sitters and stuff, and now that
we've seen what they're going to do to people who
are arrested at demonstrations, the kinds of friction that completely
be applied have to change. Otherwise the movement's going to
get worn down before the state does. In this fight.
(43:31):
Something that Tortuguita has said is that the state is
very good at doing violence. We we cannot we we
cannot beat the state at violence. The states the state
will probably win that game. That's that's that's the entire
point of the state that like the state has a
monopoly on violence. That is the entire point. They will
(43:51):
win that. Um, but there but there are other ways
where we can see successes, and we have seen successes before. UM,
so it's not over. It will probably grow and change.
Um what actually happens will remain to be seen. But
I am um just I'm prepping to go through a
(44:13):
whole bunch of my audio files and uh and and
and piece and piece together kind of a pretty pretty
discinct deep dive. That is, it is a true a
true successor to the to the original on the ground
at the defense the Atlanta Force episodes that I did
last May, so well, I look forward to that. I'm
(44:34):
sure I know everyone else is as well. UM, thank
you for going over there and uh and being in
the thick of it, and um yeah, we'll we'll continue
to cover this story as best we can. But whatever
comes in the future, all right, I think that's an
episode it could happen here as a production of cool
(44:58):
Zone Media. From more podcast from cool Zone Media. Visit
our website cool zone media dot com, or check us
out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or
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It could happen here, Updated monthly at cool Zone Media
dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
Welcome back to it could happen here a podcast that
is today about it happening here or or more particularly
in Atlanta. So so it's here if you happen to
live in Atlanta, Georgia. Otherwise it is it is still
happening there. Um. And I don't actually know much about
this because, like the rest of you, I have been
(00:26):
watching from the sidelines since a forest defender was killed
by the Georgia State Police. But someone who has been
in Atlanta for most of the last week is Garrison Davis. Garrison, Hi, Hi,
it's been a long week. Yeah, it sounds like it.
You uh had just gotten back from c e S
when all this happened and booked, booked the next flight
(00:48):
and flew out and we're on the ground during uh,
some of the immediate protests that followed news about the death.
Do you do you want to just kind of take
it from here. Yeah, So we're gonna be putting together
kind of a more in depth thing similar to my
similar to my on the Ground to Defend the Atlanta
(01:09):
Forest episodes from last May. That is that's that's gonna
come out, But you know, it'll take a little bit
because I'm doing a lot of interviews, doing a lot
of on the ground stuff here. Um, but this is
important enough that I feel like it's it's worth that
it was. It was worth mentioning something a bit sooner,
which is why we're recording here today just to kind
of give a one oh one on what's been going
(01:31):
on ever since Wednesday. So Wednesday, January there was a
raid on the Wollawnee Forest or the South River Forest
in Atlanta where people have been currently staying in encampments
for the past like a year and a half in
opposition of this upcoming proposed police training facility to be
built on this same land. So Wednesday morning there was
(01:54):
this raid. Um. There's a few things different about this raid.
One it seemed to be in some ways kind of
led by the Georgia State Patrol. Um. This is, uh,
you know, a state, a state run police that has
not been in this force before. Other raids have been
coordinated between a Decabb County police in Atlanta police. So
(02:16):
the SWAT team was was unfamiliar with the forest, they
had not been in there before. There was there was
other police on on site. This was an inter agency thing.
There was It does seem like there was Atlanta police
here as well. But this started at around eight am
and then at around nine am we got word that uh,
a forest defender was shot and killed by it seems
(02:39):
like in an estate patrol officer that they are not
releasing the name of nor are they releasing the name
of one other officer who was injured. UM and George.
Georgia State Patrol claims that they were shot during this
raid as well. Police by Day Yes, police police claim
that they were shot by the person that the Georgia
(03:02):
State Patrol killed. There's very little information about this UM
no body cameras. They have said that there's no no
body cam, which does seem consistent because Georgia State Patrol
are not are not required to wear body cam. So
that obviously hit a lot of people pretty hard because
this is um to our knowledge, the first like you know,
(03:24):
environmental ist protester to be killed by police. It's the
first fatality that we've had in the in this in
this movement here in Atlanta. And for the record, it
is still deeply unclear what happened. It's certainly not impossible
that this person fired first on the police officer, but
(03:44):
it's it's also incredibly important to note that there is
no evidence of this that's been presented. The only evidence
that the police have presented is a photo of a
of a pistol on the ground. UM. And then they've
made the very weasily word to claim that UM ballistics
testing has shown that the bullet that struck the officer
(04:07):
was consistent with the gun that they're saying with the
individual they killed had. And all that means said it
was nine millimeter. That was the same caliber, right, a
caliber for which there are tens of millions of guns
in this country. UM. Most ballistic science is in terms
of like identifying bullets to guns is actually nonsense. There
(04:27):
have been massive lawsuits about this, the FBI, UM has
has this is a bigger topic than than we can
get into today. But it's very shady. And all that
they actually said is the cop was shot with a
nine millimeter and hey, look we found a nine millimeter.
Not interestingly enough, we have confirmed that this gun was fired. UM.
(04:48):
So very anyway, so no one knows what's happened. It's
it's it's shady. I mean, so I've I got I
got here like less than twenty four hours later. A
lot of people on the ground have been kind of
shared their memories of the person that was killed. So
the person was named their Their forest name was Tortuguita,
which means little turtle. Their name that has been released
(05:10):
is uh Manuel Um. I'm just gonna I'm gonna call
them tortuga or torch Um. Sure, there's been people of
you know, spent a lot of the past few days
talking about tort remembering tort Um, the types of things
that that they advocated for, the types of things that
they would talk about. So we'll we'll we'll get into
(05:31):
some of the more kind of specifics of that of
that of that later. UM. But a number of other
journalists have talked about their conversations with with towards including
um the fact that they evinced a pretty principled um
and and extensive commitment to non violence UM, at least
(05:52):
in interviews. This is something they had been quoted on
by an other journalists a number of times. And this
is something I've heard a lot of people bring up.
Is that is that Toward was was a believer in
in non violence and would and would talk about and
advocate that. The other the other kind of angle to
this and I'm not taking a position one way or
another here, but this is something that I think it's
(06:12):
important to mention is that I also don't want to
remove the agency of a person if they did decide
to do if I, if I did if they did
decide to do this, Because the other thing I've heard
a lot about Towards is that they always made thoughtful decisions,
in the meaning that they put thought into everything they did. Um,
(06:33):
they were they acted strategically. They did not they did
not put people in unnecessary danger. They would not do
something if they thought it would endanger other people. They
always acted with thought and that that that could include
if you feel like your life is under immediate threat. Um,
what what actually happened Wednesday morning? We will probably never know.
(06:55):
We will never know the exact series of events. Yeah,
and it's and in some ways like that's we can
we should respect Towards either way, Um, because they made
a decision that they thought that was right in the moment,
or they were just flat out murdered by police. Um.
(07:18):
So that's that's kind of the gist of of what
happened Wednesday morning. Throughout the rest of the day, their
police continued their raid on the forest. The last the
last tree sitter was eventually taken down like twenty hours
later after the raids. That someone was stuck up in
a tree for over twenty hours, no food or water. UM,
(07:39):
police agitating them the entire time, and many all of
all the other people arrested. I think a total around
seven got charged with the domestic terrorism among other charges.
So that's pretty significant. UM. That is people. That's that
and we will circle back to this to this point
a little bit later. So that is that is what
(08:01):
happened on Wednesday. Uh, you know, the first few hours
after the shooting, people were unsure of of who actually
got killed. It was it was hard, it was hard
to say. UM. Other force defenders who were in the
area did report from that what they heard there was
a pretty a pretty quick single firing of of guns,
(08:21):
multiple guns going off in a pretty quick succession. There
was no like one shot and then seconds later a
bunch of other shots. It was all kind of one event.
This is reports from people on the ground. This is
what this is what they've said. UM. A lot of
a lot of people speculate that this could have been
friendly fire. If if this, if this, if this, if
this other patrol officer was was, um, you know, got shot.
(08:44):
They went to the hospital. So it doesn't it doesn't
police officer had got a bullet inside of them. Um.
But obviously there's a number of ways in which that
could have occurred. And I don't find it. I certainly,
I don't think it's constue oratory at all, conspiratorial at
all to say they have not presented evidence. It is
(09:04):
certainly possible that a bunch of cops wandering through the forest,
somebody would have a negligent discharge, you know, somebody would
just pant. You know, there's enough we and again, as
you've stated, we just we probably will never know precisely
what happened. Um. And that's that's that's the feeling on
the ground. A lot of people coming to terms with
the fact that we will never know, a lot of people,
(09:24):
you know, thinking that it's you know, very likely chance
of his friendly fire. Other people you know, trying to
trying to emphasize the fact that, you know, we will
never know if we cannot say one way, they or another.
But it's also important not to minimize someone's autonomy, especially
since they're no longer around to advocate for themselves or
their actions. Yeah, let's go, let's have a let's have
(09:48):
an ad break, and then we'll kind of continue on
to what happened in the in the days after we're back, Garrison,
please continue to take it away. So the late the
(10:09):
day of the shooting, there was a vigil before we
found out who it was. There was a vigil set
up at Little Five Points in Atlanta, and then the
next two days there was, uh, there was a vigil
space created at Entrenchment Creek Park or Woolani People's Park. Uh.
This is an area of the forest that's too that's
on like the eastern side, and this is the section
(10:32):
that is currently being sought as a place to expand
Black Hole Movie Studios. So this is this is separate
from the actual Cops City element of this, but it's
still part of the defend the Atlanta Forest side of
this because this is all the same forest. They're just
kind of split um down the middle by this by
this power line cut. So this section of the park
(10:55):
is on a section of land that's contestedly owned by
Ryan Millsap, the guy runs Black Hall Studios. I first
arrived at at the Willini People's Park on Friday for
the for like the more public facing vigil and I
just just kind of I want to talk a bit
about the park because this is such a I think
(11:16):
it's such a solid encapsulation of what's changed since last
time I've been in Atlanta. So, last time I was
in Atlanta, there was the Muscogee Creek. People were traveling
from my belief, Oklahoma to Atlanta what what is now
Atlanta what what used to be Muskogee land um, And
(11:36):
they were they were like giving talks and presentations about
the forest inside the section of forest that that the
defend the land of forest stuff is about. And I
went to one of those events at in Trenchman Creek Park.
It was green trees all around, there was a nice gazebo,
there was a there was a piano inside the gazebo,
(11:56):
people handing out food. A little kitchen was said up.
Pretty pretty picturesque, it was. It was pretty. It was
pretty great. So then when I pulled up to this
same spot a few days ago, it was like apocalyptic.
The gazebo has been completely torn down and is laying
in shambles in the front of the parking lot, like
(12:18):
for everyone to see. The destroyed remains, all of the
all of like the the the concrete sidewalks and stuff
have all been torn up and it's just scattered everywhere.
It's now it's just it's just a massive mud pit.
It's it's such a different place. Um. And you know
when you when you get there for a vigil, the
(12:40):
moods not cheery obviously. Um. There was people you know,
sharing stories of Torrents, singing songs and you know, building
this like almost like a vigil shrine. Um. So that
was like the first the first big thing Friday night. UM.
(13:00):
So a lot of people talked about their memories of
Tort and you know the different things they contributed to,
not just to defend the Atlanta Forest stuff, but stuff
across the entire South. They did mutual aid work, um
and stuff to secure housing for people in Florida. They
helped defend drag shows in uh in Tennessee. They they
(13:22):
did they did stuff all all across the South. And
you know, they had they had allies and accomplices from
across the South, you know, talking about how great Tort
was to work with the types of solidarity that Tort
would show too. Too many many different people So that
was Friday, and everyone was kind of you could kind
(13:47):
of feel the almost calm before the storm. In some ways,
people didn't people didn't really know what was going to
happen in the coming days, but there was there was
a sense of like eerie quietness. And then Saturday happens. Saturday,
there is this protest planned meeting in Underground Atlanta, which
is a spot in downtown Atlanta kind of on this
(14:08):
south side. I got there for this protest there. Initially
there was people from this like socialst organization called PSL.
They they tried to lead the march one way. UM,
the crowd rejected their authority and was like, no, we're
not going to go to the Federal District, We're not
(14:28):
going to go to the CNN Center, which are places
notorious for getting kettled at UM and they and people
autonomously redirected the crowd UM North towards the and and
North is also just so happens to be the direction
of the Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, the pseudo union lobbying
group that is that is behind the big push for
(14:51):
for Cops City. UM. But before this march started, there
was similarly, you know, people giving speeches about tort people
not not speeches, like people just sharing memories of torts.
So people so that tork can like live on um
in some way. So people can you know, know about
them now that they're no longer around, you know, people
from a local medic collective talking about you know, towards
(15:15):
towards involvement in that and how much toward cared about,
you know, helping other people. So this this this march
starts up um. It was funny. There was a few
blocks away from this march location. They're just so happened
to be like a single police car in the street
(15:35):
but like parked on the wrong side of the road.
And this police car sees this march coming and it's
like kind of freaking out. It doesn't know what to do.
It drives in reverse for like like two blocks, trying
to find a spot to turn around as the marches
like increasingly getting closer, Like you could just because you
could just feel you could feel the anxiety of the
(15:57):
cop inside this car. He they do not want to
get surrounded by a crowd. Eventually they're able to back
up enough to turn around and they get out. They
are they're zooming away. If you do not want to
be anywhere near this. And short shortly after people arrive
at the Atlanta Police Foundation headquarters, windows spontaneously shatter UM.
(16:22):
As as is expected, a few bank windows also get
UM get get broken. What Wells Fargo being one of them? Yes,
R I P. Bank windows of Wells Fargo being another one.
Wells Fargo is a major contributor to the Atlanta Police Foundation.
So this happens. Two cop cars that are just you know,
(16:45):
blocks away, UM, that are sitting completely empty, get there,
get their windows smashed. You know, there's people, there's there's
fireworks going off around the crowd. UM. There's there's this
one clip that I that I saw from some some
some group that was live streaming UM that there was.
There was a few a few officers like stationed beside
(17:09):
the Atlantic Police Foundation and as soon as they as
soon as they heard fireworks, they again similarly just like
ran away as fast as they could. They were not
equipped to deal with UM, to deal with us. Fireworks
were they were the main thing they seem to be
scared of. So two to two cop cars together winter smashed, UM.
(17:30):
Fireworks going around. March continues goes for about a few
more blocks and Uh, then corker's notice police police are
starting to come. Police are approaching, approaching the crowd. Head on,
please start rushing towards the crowd. Um. One they they tackle,
tackle a few people holding a banner. Um, I think
(17:53):
they they people. People scatter. The most of the crowd
gets away. Most of the crowd splits up in two
into two groups. The largest chunk is able to move
away from police presence. There's you know, people chanting, be water,
you know, all of all the stuff. So most most
people do successfully get away. The smaller, smaller section of
(18:14):
people split off another direction. Cops follow. They are able
to tackle and arrest a few a few more people
in this in this group. In the end, it looks
like there was six people arrested. Um, most most people
got away. After all these arrests are happening, people start
noticing something that in the background a few a few
blocks previous to where people were marching. Uh, it looks
(18:37):
there looks to be a glowing police car. Uh so
we we we look back, and sure enough in an
Atlanta police car is up in flames, um, complete, completely
completely glowing, huge, huge flames. So so as that happens,
more and more cops show up. This is where like
(18:58):
the cops now are like taking over downtown. Um, you know,
cops with with air fifteen or a er style rifles
are are going around staring, starting to do patrols. So
this is like then the night is over at this point.
Now it's time for like people to scatter and leave,
which is what people did. The the aftermath of this
(19:21):
is super fascinating and unfortunate, if not unexpected. Uh, you know,
there's been very little statements about the police killing of
an of of Tortoquita of you know, environmental activist, um
forest defender, but very very very little statements addressing this
this matter at all. A huge flood of statements, however,
(19:44):
exte seeming to be extremely concerned that like a few
windows were broken and that a cop car got torched.
This this is and you know this, this is this
is less than a week after Martin Luther King day. Um,
this is you know, this is. The big quote was
(20:06):
that the police chief a few hours later declared that
breaking windows and starting fires is terrorism, which is a
wild thing for a police chief to say. As the
mayor stands behind nodding integration It's one of the most
fascist things that we've that has that has occurred in
the United States. You cannot understate like the severity of yeah,
(20:30):
like this, the severity of this, of this change in
the types of framing by the state to describe civil disobedience,
to describe property destruction, to describe vandalism as a form
of of of domestic terrorism is is appalling. Um. I mean,
(20:50):
if if this, if this holds up, then in states
where this is done, there is effectively no longer any
right to protest. Yeah. And I mean, and we'll get
into some some of the details of this in a bit,
even in this in this episode, um. And I think
the the other side of this is that this is
something that I've heard people talk about here on the ground,
(21:11):
is that if if breaking windows is terrorism, right, if
if if if the destruction of inanimate objects this terrorism,
what what exactly is destroying an entire forest like this is?
This is like the juxtaposition that people are dealing with
on the ground right now. So the end the result
(21:34):
of this is that we got six people who not
six people who were to be clear arrested completely at random.
This This was very clear police were tackling anyone they
could get their hands on. They were not doing targeted arrests.
They were not going after specific individuals who they suspected
of of like actually doing crimes. Um. They were they
(21:54):
were tackling random people, as is kind of usual for
these sorts of things. But they have gotten a series
of ridiculous charges UM, riot, arson, interviewing, interfering with government property, um,
and also domestic terrorism and domestics. So this is domestic terrorism,
not even for people that are like in the forest,
just people protesting out on the street. Um, windows were broken.
(22:20):
When windows were broken, there's no evidence of this. The
bail hearings were today as of being recorded. This is
this is Monday, but bail hearings were today. The judge,
the judge for the hearings specifically said that these hearings
are not to litigate the facts of the issue. What
actually happened doesn't matter. There's there's obviously no evidence to
(22:41):
support that any of these people arrested did any crimes.
There's there's no evidence that that shows that the specific
people arrested did anything beyond marching in the street, and
that does not matter. That that that simply does does
not matter. The brutality is the point in this case
to two people have had their bail set at three
(23:04):
hundred and fifty five THO dollars each, So that's over
seven thousand dollars for just two people's bail. The other
four people arrested were deemed to be from out of
state by the judge and then thus a flight risk,
including people that are just like less than ninety minutes
away in Tennessee. And again this this is like where
(23:25):
people are born, there's this, there's this, there's this sense
that like people no longer have freedom to choose where
they live, that people like no longer have any freedom
of movement, that they no longer have the autonomy to
go to different places. You know. This is this is
like in line with the outside agitator angle that's been
being pushed by governments and media ever since, especially since
(23:48):
this is in line with that sort of stuff. But
because these people were deemed non local or a flight risk,
these people are not getting any bond at all. These
people are going to be held in jail in definitely
it could this, This could literally be years. The legal
system is so slow and being held in prison in
(24:10):
jail for for years with no evidence presented that you
did literally anything wrong. Um. I've talked with a lot
of people, people from Solidarity Fund, which will I'll mention
here at the end, and and you know, just just
people around like what they're you know, with people are
(24:30):
getting arrested with no evidence and getting you know, indefinite
time in prison, hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars
to be released, like the the the obvious abusive power
by the state, um, the sheer audacity, and uh, you know,
the extreme danger that if these, if these are able
(24:51):
to to to stick and hold, is incredibly frightening for
any any kind of future, um, any future civil rights
movement at all like this. It might say that it's
the strategic use of terror in order to achieve a
political One might say that, and I mean, it's we're
(25:11):
in Atlantic, the streets they're marching on. There's banners of
Martin Luther King hanging above us, like it's it's incredibly frustrating.
The Solidarity Fund, which we interviewed on the show literally
days before that, well with the episode released days before
the killing of Tortoquita. But the allancea Solidarity Fund is
providing both legal support and UM and and and bail
(25:33):
for people arrested for political actions. The previous amount needed
to bail out people was over a hundred thousand dollars,
which is a lot of money, and now just just
for two people, it's seven thousand more dollars. So the
Atlantis Solarity Fund desperately needs funds to continue supporting people
(25:55):
and to continue resisting state repression. UM. We'll talk about
this more once I have my Deep Died episodes out
on this topic. But it's it's crucial that that if
if if anyone cares about people's right to protest, to
people's people's you know, ability to resist state violence. UM,
(26:17):
then it's it's absolutely crucial that that people support the
Solidarity Fund right now. Ah. Just just today I went
to another another kind of vigil um at Emery College
here in Atlanta. More more people were sharing stories of
tort um. One person was reading out a letter that
they sent to sent to their UM comrades in Italy
(26:42):
who are setting up a vigil as well. There's been
a good amount of international support, as I've seen vigils
from Germany, UM from Italy. There's been there's been events, demos, rallies, UM,
direct actions and vigils all across the United States UM
about to defend the Alanta Forest and about the killing
of Tortoquita people. People here absolutely do appreciate the solidarity.
(27:10):
And the other thing people are saying is that, I mean,
all of these tactics are meant to scare people away
from the idea of protesting, and people are still needed
on the ground here. This fight is not This fight
is not over. UM, this is this is not this
is not the end. You know, Tactics may have to change,
tactics may have to shift, people may have to approach
things from from um, you know, different angles. But it's
(27:34):
not over, and there's there's people have said that there's
still a need or you know, for support, rules, for
people on the ground, for people to be in Atlanta,
because it's not done. I mean, I think there's a
(27:56):
lot of sentiment on the left that's happening in the
Atlanta Forest defense is probably the most important radical action
going on in the country right now. And I think
there's a few reasons for that. Um, not just the
fact that the forest that is going to be torn
down for cops city is a crucial part of the
city of Atlanta's tree cover, and that all of this
(28:19):
ties into both the impossibility of actually combating climate change
under the present system and the complicity of the police
in making it impossible to combat that or even to
mitigate it in many cases. But but I think what
you've gotten to is probably the most direct the most
(28:41):
directly frightening thing about what's going on in Atlanta, and
the thing that's most relevant to the future of any
kind of resistance in this country, which is, um, the
the gloves are are coming off right, the the this
is this is not going to be the last time
that states secure city forces use the fact that terrorism
(29:05):
has a special place in American law, and that crimes
that are deemed to be terrorism um open up the
ability of the government to act in ways that they
normally are not supposed to be able to act. Um,
Like that is going to be It's not going to
be just forest defenders that gets used on. It's going
to be anyone who ever carries out any kind of
(29:27):
act of protest that has a chance of upsetting the
balance of power um in this country. Like that's that's
where this is headed. And UM, it's a bummer. Do
you want to talk a little bit about the role
of the media in this, because that is something that
(29:47):
is I'm certain going to be of We just had
a thing today where some weirdo lefties on the True
and on subreddit decided and someone on Twitter decided to
accuse me of getting a bunch of people in Atlanta
arrested for terrorism because I interviewed them on camera. I've
I've never interviewed anyone in Atlanta, I said, I simply
(30:07):
have never worked there. Um, I'm not sure where the
rumors started, but it's it's reigniting this kind of debate
about it seems it seems like tanky stuff. It's it's
it's it's it's nonsense, but it has reignited. And I
saw this onthing. It could happen here, subred people talking
about like, um, obviously you know this is nonsense, but
it is a you know, looking at these terrorism charges,
it's a simple fact that activists should never talk to press.
(30:32):
And um, obviously a lot of these arrests had nothing
to do with anyone talking to the media. Like folks
were present at a riot and the cops were tackling folks.
That's that's nobody. But the cops's fault. But there's a
there's a there's a conversation to be had about what
is the what is the smart balance in terms of
(30:54):
getting pr and getting press coverage and getting word of
mouth about a radical movement and the fact that doing
that will inevitably ramp up pressure Like that is that
is a reality that when when radical activists get attention
from the media, the state cracks down. Now does that
(31:15):
mean that the media is responsible for the movement getting
cracked down? Or does it simply mean that the cops
judge whether or not something's a threat by the amount
of press that it's getting. You know, the the this
is this is an ongoing like thing people are going
to be talking about in in a lot of ways,
it's a continuation of conversations people were having in But
(31:36):
I'm interested in because when you win over there. We
had a little a few hours of debate after it
became clear that the cops had killed a forest defender
over like, Okay, what's the right thing to do? Should
should Garrison head over to Atlanta? Um? Should we have
some boots on the ground for this? Because you've been
covering it for so long and one of the things
you pointed out is that there was a call for
(31:59):
media coverage from people who were on the ground in Atlanta. Yes,
this is something I will get born into when I
go in depth with this for an upcoming episode, probably
probably probably a two partter um. That's this is a
conversation that people are constantly having in Atlanta. This is
a conversation I've been having with people NonStop ever since
coming here. Ever since before coming here, I've you know,
(32:21):
this is something I don't want to just parachute into
someone else's city. I had conversations with multiple people before
before coming over. There's a few aspects to this. The
amount of people doing stuff, And you know, how many
people are in the forest not a not a giant
number of people. There's not hundreds of people living in
the woods. There's there's not there's there's not there's not
(32:42):
tons of people. Um. Uh. An intentional media strategy has
been a part of this movement since the beginning. Um,
even among the instructionary anarchists who are here. Uh. This
is this has been something that people have been you know,
working on as as a part of a decentralized movement,
(33:03):
having conversations about uh. There's been a lot of there's
been coverage in the Rolling Stone that people here seem
to be pretty happy with. UM, yeah, it was very
and the Guardian also published people have like, people have
been pretty happy in the article. People have been very
pretty happy with coverage from the Guardian. Um, there's a
people have been pretty happy with some stuff from a
(33:25):
J Plus. Um. People have been um decently happy with
the work that I've done on this. But based on
many conversation, dozens and dozens of conversations I have I've
had with people here, UM, ultimately I don't for what
(33:45):
for what cops are doing in the forest. I don't
think there seems to be a clear correlation between media coverage,
happening of stuff of of you know, the movement, and
cops response to the forest. There doesn't, there does, There's
no linked timeline there. Cops are doing stuff in the
forest because they want the forest cleared so they can
build their police training the police training facility. From what
(34:07):
I've talked with people, the amount of pressure that has
been caused by media covering the forest has not only
elongated the construction process, elongated the the amount stuff that
they're that they're able to do it's it is, it
has it has made it harder because this is this,
this is not a very popular proposal. Even even before
the encampments started, it was estimated that like people in
(34:30):
Atlanta were not for this, We're not for the construction
of this facility. So I think people people make a
lot of intentional media choices. That's not to say that
there isn't also UM intentionally harmful actors who are trying
to frame this as Atlanta burning down Atlanta and disorder
Antifa taking over sections of Atlanta. That is absolutely another
(34:54):
part of it. But there's a very people here have
a very clear distinction between between bad actors, between people
who are you know, providing accurate, fair coverage of what's
going on UM, and then you know people who are
just out to profit, which is you know, like a
lot of like local TV channels. UM. There's there. I
think stuff that happened on the protests on Saturdays is
(35:16):
a good example. There's this far right account that I'm
not going to name, UM at least not yet. I might.
I might talk about it in the future. UM who
you know, tries to collect information on on protesters they
had there, They have someone on the ground two films.
They also a really good aggregate of like random people's
instagram and TikTok's or snapchats of you know, filming filming
(35:37):
people from unfortunate angles. Um, the local local TV like Fox,
like the like the local Fox news station, you know,
tries to get as much sensational footage of crimes as possible,
and you know, people people, to the best their ability,
well you know, try to try to block that off
with like umbrellas if they see that happening, but you know,
you can it's it's met. There's definitely a clear tension
(36:02):
that people in the movement do not want the media
narratives around this to solely be decided by the state
and be decided against people who are in clear opposition
to them. That is, that is absolutely something that people
are putting and putting attention in. Uh. They just that's
because that that creates a lot of really really harmful scenarios.
(36:24):
Because there's the state itself is already a pretty powerful
propaganda machine. Already, a lot of local news just regurgitates
state talking points. Right, this is the idea of the
fourth estate. There is does seem to be a pretty
a distinction between stuff like the fourth Estate and stuff
like the derivative idea of the fifth estate of being
more of like the people's voice for for for for
(36:46):
these for these sorts of movements. Also in that vein
there's stuff like the Atlanta People's Press, which is like
decentralized media collective UM, run by a lot of like
rad people who who who helped to coordinate media coverage,
who helped to coordinate UM stuff with I mean they have,
they have worked with people, They've worked with us on
(37:08):
our on the on the history of the old Atlanta
prison farm. So I would say there's a lot of
thought put into media strategy UM, and not like in
like a Libby like optics way, but like actual effective
media strategy that will improve material conditions and will help
push the goals of the movement forward, the goal being
(37:32):
that the construction of Cops City does does not continue.
So there's a lot of thought going into that and
they and that is viewed as another like that that
is another wing of of the effort. Right, There's there's
stuff like the encampments. There's stuff like sabotage, there's stuff
like protests, There's stuff like you know, like a a
very above board stuff, you know that like very uh,
(37:54):
you know, like a above grand organizations will do like
you know right in camp Haynes calling campaigns and media
strategy is another angle of this because to completely give
up the public perception of what's going on to the
state is seen as a bad thing. So, but this
is this is absolutely a contentious topic. I think people
(38:17):
in Atlanta have a lot of nuanced conversations about this,
and media stuff is handled with a lot more intention
here than it has been in the Pacific Northwest. Um,
that is my that is my subjective opinion. But based
on based on it's a smaller community, so I think
maybe it's easier. It does seem like there's more solidarity
(38:39):
within the community and a shared vision. I wouldn't say
that's true. There is the community is forced to reinforce itself.
It is small enough that it cannot treat people as disposable. Um,
it needs to maintain the people that it has, and
so people work through problems, People work through conflicts and
ways to actually resolve it and keep going to build
everyone up and make them stronger. There's a shared community
(39:01):
space which i've I've I've been to a few times. Um.
And I think even just something like that is so
is so useful in being able to actually keep something
that resembles a community. You see a lot of anarchists,
um talk about how like community isn't a real thing,
there isn't actually community, um, you know. Or and in
(39:23):
a lot of places, I would say that's that's true.
A lot of places are just click driven, um you know, uh,
scene drama it it honestly gets towards or like interesting
conflict if if you don't want use sword drama. Um.
Whereas circular firing squad type ship. Yeah. Whereas here there
is such a feeling of actual community like that that
(39:45):
actually is a thing here because people are forced to
foster it. We're in the South, We're surrounded where you know,
you're you're surrounded by a lot of people who want
to hurt you. Um. Atlanta is the most surveilled city.
There's so many different police forces. There's a police force
for Faulting Counting, the police force for De Cab County
is the police force for Atlanta. There's the Georgia State Patrol.
There's the Georgia Buer of Investigation. There's the Georgia Department
(40:07):
of Homeland Security. There's so many people, so many agencies
are involved in this. There's so much, so much outwards
um threats to people that you really are forced to
keep people, uh, keep people close and and trust the
people around you because the consequences are quite dire. Um.
So people take things very seriously and they put a
(40:28):
lot of thought into into a lot of into a
lot of things. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean that
that also jells with my own experience in the South. Right,
it's it's easier to find communities of people who are
um doing anything kind of radical because there's that that
(40:51):
bunker mentality, right, You're under siege, You're surrounded on all sides,
and um, you know that that's very different when you
go to a place where there is kind of more
like what what would be in other places, devancy is
more than norm um. And yeah, I guess that that
is probably has a lot to do with the fact
that this forest Defense has so far been so successful
(41:15):
in delaying the construction of this facility which it which
it has construction construction deadlines continue to have been passed
and been passed and been passed. It has the very
least showed that stuff like this can be resisted and
significantly delayed. And at this point they're projecting construction won't
be complete for about four more years. And again these
(41:37):
deadlines keep getting pushed back and back, and that is
really what the movement is trying to do, keep these
deadlines getting pushed back and back until they just give
up on the project or try to put it somewhere else.
And if they try to put someone and if they
try to put it somewhere else, then the forest was defended.
But then there's still the top cop city aspect of
being like, yeah, it can go somewhere else, but we
we don't want it there at all. And then at
that point the movement would change, you know, very significantly.
(42:01):
But in terms of the defend the Atlanta Force aspect
of this, right, the whole goal is to make to
make this as unenticing as possible UM. And there's a
multitude of strategies involved in that UM including stuff like propaganda,
madget prop media strategy, sabotage, direct action, call in campaigns,
stuff about pressuring the construction agencies, all all those sort
(42:24):
of things. That's so much more because what you're talking
about is is what we call in sort of conflict
studies a strategy of friction, right, um, and and so
much there's so always so much focus on kind of
these like we had in Portland and twenty these like
grand moments that are are very visually spectacular of resistance,
(42:45):
but what actually what actually wins Because the state has
the ability to take a lot of hits. It is
a it is a durable force. And if you're going
up against a durable force, the only way to win
victories is to be durable yourself and to wear away
at them. It's it's friction, um And I think that's like,
(43:08):
that's still the winning play is to keep up pressure.
It's just the kinds of pressure, especially now that they've
cleared out the tree sitters and stuff, and now that
we've seen what they're going to do to people who
are arrested at demonstrations, the kinds of friction that completely
be applied have to change. Otherwise the movement's going to
get worn down before the state does. In this fight.
(43:31):
Something that Tortuguita has said is that the state is
very good at doing violence. We we cannot we we
cannot beat the state at violence. The states the state
will probably win that game. That's that's that's the entire
point of the state that like the state has a
monopoly on violence. That is the entire point. They will
(43:51):
win that. Um, but there but there are other ways
where we can see successes, and we have seen successes before. UM,
so it's not over. It will probably grow and change.
Um what actually happens will remain to be seen. But
I am um just I'm prepping to go through a
(44:13):
whole bunch of my audio files and uh and and
and piece and piece together kind of a pretty pretty
discinct deep dive. That is, it is a true a
true successor to the to the original on the ground
at the defense the Atlanta Force episodes that I did
last May, so well, I look forward to that. I'm
(44:34):
sure I know everyone else is as well. UM, thank
you for going over there and uh and being in
the thick of it, and um yeah, we'll we'll continue
to cover this story as best we can. But whatever
comes in the future, all right, I think that's an
episode it could happen here as a production of cool
(44:58):
Zone Media. From more podcast from cool Zone Media. Visit
our website cool zone media dot com, or check us
out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or
wherever you listen to podcasts, you can find sources for
It could happen here, Updated monthly at cool Zone Media
dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening.
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