It Could Happen Here Weekly 34

All of this week's episodes of It Could Happen Here put together in one large file.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, everybody, Robert Evans here, and I wanted to let
you know this is a compilation episode. So every episode
of the week that just happened is here in one
convenient and with somewhat less ads package for you to
listen to in a long stretch if you want. If
you've been listening to the episodes every day this week,
there's gonna be nothing new here for you, but you
can make your own decisions. Oh, it could happen here

(00:29):
and earlier this week, not the week you're hearing this,
but the week we recorded it. It did it being
the end of Roe v. Wade via Supreme Court fiat,
and also the coming end of a hundred years of
social progress and less people get real organized and aggressive,
real fucking quick. I'm Robert Evans? Who else? Who else?

(00:49):
Do I got on with me? Today? Is there a?
Is there a? Is there a Christopher Wong on the line? Yes,
there there is one. There are many others, but but
I am me, yeah, the others do not count. Um?
Is there a Garrison Davis on the line? The only
one that I know of? That's right, that's right. We
exterminated the others in a in a brutal set of
purges Allah, Stalin Um, and then of course Sharene, Lonnie

(01:12):
and a Sharne. I'm here too. Would you like to
introduce Sophie of I mean, the one and only Sophie. Okay,
well that's us. And now today I am intensely excited
to introduce our guest, Um, who is a cool person
doing cool stuff to steal another one of our podcasters,

(01:33):
Cat Green of the Abortion Access Front Kat, Welcome to
the show. Thank you for coming on. I know this
has been a hell week for you. Oh yeah, thanks
for having me on. I really appreciate it. Now, Um,
you and I have a friend in common, and you
guys were actually at a national conference for abortion access
when the news dropped a little early. Do you want

(01:56):
to talk to us a little bit about what happened there? Yeah?
I mean, now that the conference is over, I can
say that we were in one of the worst cities
in the world to be in when all of this happened, Orlando, Florida,
which is basically made of paper sets. Right. Honestly, you

(02:17):
could have stopped that sentence. At one of the worst
cities to be in. Yeah, we had actually been out
to dinner at the oldest restaurant in Florida earlier that night,
and it was a lovely evening, um, even though like
some angry driver tried to kill our mutual friend over
a parking space Florida, over that part, you know, I

(02:42):
mean Florida. Yeah, you know. Also, the day had started
with their already being a bomb threat at a clinic
in Knoxville, so I was trying to help people find
information about that earlier in the day, and then um,
we went out to dinner thinking that we got to
relax x and then came back to the news as

(03:02):
it was breaking and into the lobby of our hotel
where um, the remaining providers and advocates that were there were, um,
just trying to make do Yeah. So cat At first
of all, I guess we should talk about what the
Abortion Access Front does and your job there, because this
is something I don't think a lot of people think

(03:24):
about it. One of the things that's become clear to
me from some of the reaction of some folks this
week on the more liberal side of things, is there
is a general unawareness of how violent and intense the
threats against abortion access providers have been for like forty years. Yeah, well.
So Abortion Access Front was founded by Liz Winstead, my

(03:45):
partner who was the co creator of The Daily Show,
and started as a progressive advocacy and messaging hub. And
so we were making funny videos about abortion and then
Trump got elected. Were like, Wow, our job's got way
more serious all of a sudden, And so we had
like volunteers in the week after election, and so we

(04:10):
started becoming matchmakers for volunteers to UM different clinics around
the country, and we were doing comedy tours where we
were trying to build community around the clinics um in
different states. And so we would do a comedy show,
have a have a provider on at the end to
talk about what was at stake locally, and then get
people to sign up to help because people didn't have

(04:33):
access to contractors in many of the places we were going,
you know, like we would go out and do landscaping
work when we were on tour because we were just
trying to help out wherever we could. And in the
course of that, the nice folks at the National Abortion
Federation reached out to us and we're like, we're a
little concerned about you putting providers on stage. Maybe we
should talk about your security plan. So they they were

(04:56):
out with us the first two years, and UM, and
we're giving me information about people we needed to watch
out for. So I got way more involved in creating
these security plans around our shows and our tours, and
UM started doing a lot of my own research on
anti abortion extremists because as we started talking to more
people that clinic escorts in front of the clinics, we

(05:19):
were getting information about not just leadership, but the people
on the ground where they were the most afraid of.
So then I was like, I wish I could just
put all this into something where I could look something
up via ZIP code and be able to tell who
I need to watch out for in a particular area
that didn't really exist, so UM, there was just a

(05:40):
whisper network of escorts. And then the leadership research that
NAP was doing, and so I started consoliding all my
research into a database for all of us to be
able to use and track incidents and organizations and bad
actors all over the country. I mean, that's that's extremely important,

(06:01):
but also extremely cool. UM. It is that you brought
up right at the start of your what you were
saying that there was a shooting at the Knoxville clinic.
There was a scare at the at the Knoxville Clinic
UM on Monday, and there was a there was an

(06:21):
arson at the Plan Parenthood in Knoxville this past New
Year's Eve. UM, and that same clinic, that same Plan
Parenthood that was burned down on New Year's Eve actually
had its front door shot out about a year earlier.
And uh, because this this is one of the more
frustrating cases. If you look this up, you can see
that like the fire department has said it was an arson. UM,

(06:44):
the a t F is investigating, the FBI is investigating.
They both get given the kind of boilerplate statements they've
given those instances, you don't see a lot from the
local police. I'm curious if you have anything to say
about like the degree to which the local police have
been you full in responding to this. Well, I don't
work with the local police at all. Um. I you know,

(07:07):
I'm a TV person that got into uh doing extremists research.
I'm an editor and that I sort information right, So
like that made sense to me, but law enforcement doesn't
really take me too seriously. Um. But the people on
the ground have a lot of thoughts about who it
could be. Right, there are known people in the Knoxville

(07:31):
area who have caused all sorts of problems. There was
another arson at a different community center there too, UM,
and several white supremacists were arrested after protesting a Black
Lives Matter UH event maybe two years ago. And so
there's here's the thing. There's information about the Knoxville fire

(07:54):
that went out on telegram with an order of nine
angles Nazi claiming credit for it. And how hard can
it be to find a pagan Naxi in Knoxville? You
go to a goth club and be like, who's hit
you in the face here? You know? So, Yeah, I

(08:17):
feel like there are hindrances to the investigation. UM, and
a lot of the a lot of the activists on
the ground have good leads that are not being followed. Yeah.
I guess that's probably the most direct thing that can
be said about it. What so to the extent that like,
there's seemingly not a lot in a lot of these

(08:40):
states that is going to be done preemptively by law enforcement. UM.
When it comes to like actually tracing out the threats. Uh,
how much do you feel like you have a chance
to actually stop them from carrying out an action, and
how much of it do you feel is just like
we need to be documenting this for for when it happens.

(09:00):
You know, we're already getting early warning about events. Um,
we're already because we tracked the people who there are
a number of groups that create the same kind of
actions that are either invasions or blockades at various clinics,
and people who have been organizing around this for decades,
right so in tracking them and starting to put the

(09:21):
pieces together, we're already getting early warning about where they're
headed about who needs to be alerted. You know, there
have been at this point three incidents just like I'm
working with a group of volunteers. These are all people
who either escort at clinics or part of a part
of advocacy orgs that you know, are not getting paid

(09:42):
to do intel, but they they're invested in the cause,
and so they just follow this stuff on the regular
and we're all in touch with each other, and all
of a sudden it's like, oh, you know, this person
who's been a part of twelve other blockades in the
last three years, has been seeing going on a tour
and said, the next three stops, he's going to let's

(10:03):
tell all the clinics in the neighborhood what's happening, and
they can be a little bit better prepared. And that's
you know, I mean, honestly, because the abortion movement is
not super supported by law enforcement largely, um, it seemed
like a necessary thing for everybody to start keeping their
own records for their own safety. And that's really how

(10:23):
all this came together. Now, it's interesting to me that
you you brought up one of kind of the leads
suspects I guess you might say for the attack on
the Knoxville clinic was an O nine A dude, I'm
wondering what kind of the threats you're seeing. Obviously there's
decades of attacks on abortion access providers, including a lot
of fatal attacks, assassinations, acid attacks, numerous bombings and attempted bombings.

(10:48):
How has the character of who is making the threats
and who you see as threats started to change over
the recent years. I mean, the only and a thing
is a big yeah. That's that's weird. You know, we've
been following the same Christian nationalists for years and largely
they have the same playbook, they make a few changes
to it. A lot of them are older. You know,

(11:10):
it's lock in blocks or invasions. There's a few Catholics
who get really aggressive and like shove their way into stuff.
But it's not. Um, it hasn't been big surprises until recently,
and and a lot of the time in the past,
even when there was extreme violence happening amongst these people,

(11:30):
it was still sort of tied back to Christian identity stuff.
And now we're really starting to see it branching out.
And honestly, I blame I blame a few things. One,
just the Internet in general, but also the pandemic kind
of galvanized extremists across a lot of spheres, and um,

(11:55):
you started seeing a lot of Christian identity people that
weren't neces sarily militia people starting to mangle with militia people.
And then you know, militia people starting to mingle with
white suprise like over white supremacists, and um, so now
there's this cross breeding that's happening where like I mean,

(12:17):
the Gropers are a great example of just like this
weird amaulgam of things that didn't exist in the same
sphere before and now they're their own movement. Yeah. I
can't tell you how much I hate that. Like other
people who who aren't weirdos who spend all of their
time on Nazi telegram know what gropers are now. Yeah,
it's extremely frustrating. It's the worst thing in the world. Yeah.

(12:41):
One of the weird things about doing this type of
research for years is seeing like on YouTube like thumbnails
by like Stephen Colbert talking about like wacky like nonsense
that I've known about for years and him talking about
it like like it's this big new thing. They're always like,
oh wow, the the little tiny corner of the Internet

(13:01):
I was just watching and staring at now is like
it's something that isn't like a regular lives political lexicon,
and that's like horrible. Yeah, brogan posting about the Kali
you guy, you know, Yeah that was That was a
hard drinking night for me. That was a hard drinking

(13:25):
night for me. And it's so hard to explain to
people why it's so bad. You're like, it's just so
once back in the twenties, there was this lady named
Savitri Devy. Now, yeah, it's it's it's really troubling because um,
it's making its way into traditional Christian identity stuff, you know, um,

(13:50):
evangelical stuff, quiverful stuff is now starting to cross over
way more aggressively with militias stuff, and and with like
over white supremacist you know now see stuff. It's such
a problem because and this is something in Berto Echo,
you know, noted a long time ago, but like fascism
is deeply syncretic, right, and we're that's what we're talking

(14:10):
about right now, is its ability. It's like a Catamari.
I refer back to that game a lot because it
does just keep picking things up, and um, we don't
really do that as much on like everyone from like
the center left to like weirdo anarchists and and and whatnot.
Like everyone's got their own little box, right, and there's

(14:30):
some interplay, but for the most part, people on the
left really like making boxes and people on the right.
It's just one big ball pit where everybody's smearing their
diseases and snot around And it's not great now. And
I mean, we need to figure out some sort of
solidarity because like even with the abortion protests that are

(14:53):
happening this week, we're already seeing people co opting things
and turning it in really destructive directions. Um, I mean,
you know, the entire cult of Boba back and you know,
I mean I'm actually worried about that as at this
point it feels like a legit astroturp. It doesn't feel

(15:14):
like they're fighting with the actual abortion providers and saying that,
you know that, like abortion funds are a problem. It's
like those are the people actually walking to walk and
doing anything about this. What are you doing besides showing
up in bloody pants and picking fights with cops, Like yeah,
it's this. You know. One of the more uplifting stories

(15:35):
that's come out recently is that in France, um, the
left is doing a popular front again in order to
kind of rest control of the government from mcrown. Will
see how it works, right, This is just something that's
kind of been announced, and but this is something like that.
This has happened a few times in the past in
different formulations, and I do kind of it would be
nice to see a broad popular front in favor of

(15:58):
abortion access on a very blunt level, but that would
involve people not just getting on board with trying to
wrest control from the right back electorally, but people supporting
a legalism, a lot of people are going to have
to do things that are not legal in order to
maintain access to reproductive health care. You know, there's the
other side of it is like hardline anarchists will have

(16:19):
to realize that working with libs is occasionally useful um
and using them as body shields sometimes can can let
you do more illegalist type practice. So there's there's both
in terms of like people who are really dogmatic on
the left being like, okay, there's types. There's certain times
where this type of this this intersectionalism can be really useful,

(16:40):
and then people who are less radical having to be
okay with more radical tactics happening. I mean, my biggest
fear right now is the mass criminalization event that's about
to happen. Right you know, no matter what, people's pregnancies
are going to be criminalized in various forms. If you
have a miscarriage, it's going to be criminalized. You're going

(17:02):
to have to be more cautious about how you use
your phone and what you say in the emergency room,
and you know, what you say to people in your
own family. And I don't think that most people on
our side are prepared to have that level of caution
or divorce themselves from technology and the way that kind

(17:22):
of needs to happen for people to stay safe. I'm
also worried that like, as a movement, um, we're not
really identifying the fact that it's all about bodily autonomy,
and so that means everybody trying to access trance health
care is as much or more so at risk. And um,

(17:44):
you know, and we have so much to learn from
the sex work industry about all of this, right, Like,
so much of what is happening now was built on
like the permissiveness of what people accepted under FOSTA and SESTA. Absolutely,
and um, you know that's how all of us got
de prioritized and stupid algorithms in the first place. And

(18:06):
and then all of a sudden weren't allowed to put
ads out for like legitimate healthcare services. And keeping ourselves
in boxes is really doing everybody a disservice. Everybody that's
been criminalized, everybody who just trying to exist is at
risk right now. Is in this together? Yeah, it's um.
You know, there's that famous quote from who was a

(18:29):
minister of some sort during you know, the Weimar years
about first they came for you know, YadA YadA, YadA, um,
And it is like it's always true with fascists, But
that doesn't mean that people ever spot it while it's happening, right,
because there's there's very few groups that mainstream America has
less inherent sympathy for than sex workers. And the reality

(18:50):
is that they were testing a lot of this out
on those people because they are marginalized. And I guess
one of the things I hope we'll see and that
might have some positive developments is that there are a
lot of sex workers out there with a lot of
opset tips that they can give other people. Now, um,
it would be dope if you know there were folks
like setting up clinics and stuff in that, because I

(19:12):
think there's a lot of information that does need to
get shared with folks who are not used to thinking
about any of the stuff they're doing is illegal. I've
been seeing stuff on you know, Facebook, among kind of
friends of mine who are more middle of the road
and family members who are pretty much centrist politically, where
they're talking about like, Hey, if you need to go
on a camping trip in another state, I'll take you
one year camping trip, and it's like I get it,

(19:33):
Like it's great to express solidarity, but will you feel
that way when it's actually a felony and people are
getting twenty years sentences for doing it, right, Like, because
that's where we're headed, you know. Yeah, yeah, I mean
people need to get more serious about moving their data
out of the country altogether, you know, like thinking about
what can be subpoena. Yeah. The folks at Hacking and

(19:56):
Hustling are doing really amazing work to spread sort of
uh sex work and sex work adjacent upset knowledge to
other communities too, Like they're amazing. Um, that's great. I
was not aware of what they were doing. Um, would
you mind giving like a little brief overview of what
that is? Try to reach out to them, But I've
only been in a couple of sessions with them, but

(20:18):
they're they're generally just sharing information about like tightening up
your digital footprint and also being conscious about how having
multiple like if you have to have a clandistine identity online,
how you can keep that from leaking over into any
of your other digital identities. Right. It's it's and I

(20:39):
mean it's a really important distinction because even if you
have something like a SOCC account on something like Facebook.
Based on how you set it up and what other
accounts that's connected to and who your friend. In that process,
it can very easily find its way back to you
and the people connected to you. So how do streams separate? Yeah,

(21:00):
I mean whenever somebody angers this podcast, we have Garrison
tracked them down. It's very easy. Yeah, that is that
is that is true. I have a whole whole folder
of people dropping their kids off at school. That's right,
So you know, keep your eye out, Hello Fresh, don't
screw with us again. Or that one reviewer that said

(21:21):
that there was the woman on the podcast who was annoying.
I know who you are. I was able to I
was able to track back via your Apple account. Just one.
Just somebody tried to request access to one of my
folders that's connected to We had a tenure sixth document
where we had identified a bunch of people, and so

(21:43):
I just linked it to you know, Google Drive things
so that press people could get to stuff. Somebody just
out of nowhere trying to access one of them the
other day and requested permission. I'm just like, all I
had to do is look up your name in the
word abortion, like, come on and try a little harder. Um,

(22:04):
So cat, I'm wondering number one for people who are
like pissed and feeling helpless, there are things that folks
can do to help, assuming you live in a state
that there's anything at all around, because like a lot
of people who are hundreds of files away from any
kind of clinic. But if you're not, I know there
are ways people going to help. Do you have any

(22:25):
kind of pieces of advice for folks interested in being
of use? There are so many things, right, I mean,
right now, I think the biggest thing that the movement
needs more than anything is abortion funds and practical support
funds really need financial help because they are paying to
move people around as night as needed to get them care, right,
So the money thing is always the obvious. But um,

(22:47):
We're actually having an event on July sev that is
sort of an orientation day for new people coming to
the movement who want to volunteer and don't know where.
So we're going to cover things like, I you become
a clinic escort, what it means to volunteer on like
an abortion fund or practical support hotline, um, how you

(23:08):
can get involved in lobbying groups, how you can get
involved in direct action groups and sort of pre vetting
people and then getting them out to the organizations that
actually have capacity to take on volunteers right now, because
a lot of what's happening, like we already saw it
in Texas where people really wanted to volunteer to help
in Texas after SPA came down, but they were doing

(23:29):
things like calling the Abortion Fund hotline to try and
get to people and it's like, no, you can't clog
up the hotline. That doesn't help anybody. So we're trying
to take some of the lift off of the organs
that are already overtaxed that their people, give them some
background information, give them a better idea of what the
landscape is in the movement, and then make the connections

(23:50):
to organizations that have the capacity to take them on.
So it's called Operations Save Abortion UM and we're gonna
do a live dream and house parties all over the country.
Awesome people are either watching the streams we're doing or
having their own local people to talk about how people
can get active locally in more direct ways. Yeah, and

(24:12):
there's stuff like being an escort, which is is something
I've been learning a little bit more about recently. UM.
I guess one of the things I'm interested in is like,
uh from a perspective of actually like keeping folks safe. Um,
is that something that you feel has like a lot
of value or is that something that yeah, Um, and

(24:34):
is that like people would want to like look at.
Are there kind of resources for for getting involved with that?
There are? Clinic escorting is a little tricky right now
because there's a whole lot of clinics that don't know
if they're going to be open in eight weeks. So
right now, well that's all shaking out. I mean, if
you already have an established relationship with your local clinic,
definitely check in with them. UM. Clinics in states that

(24:57):
are going to see a surge, um, Pennsylvania, Illinois, New York,
I mean really anywhere that's still going to have abortion
after the twenty states fall, the entire West coast, uh,
New Mexico, right, Uh, Minnesota, they are all going to
need escorts. UM. Which clinic escorting is walking a person

(25:19):
from their car to the clinic door past protesters. Um.
It's generally I would say clinics are non engagement clinics.
So doing this means that you're there for the patient.
You're not there to get in a protesters sphace. Some
clinics have enough of a protest presence, like UM Clinics

(25:40):
in Charlotte Clinics in Jackson, Mississippi, where they have they
split it up and they have people that are there
for the patients and people that are there to distract
protesters and sort of pull them away from the door,
you know, just get them a little bit removed so
that they can get patients past them. This is a
little bit less pleasant to a question, but you know,

(26:02):
I've done for a different cause a lot of the
same research where you're like spending time in these dark
corners of the Internet making notes of people and threats
being made, and um, I remember the horrible feeling of
like having a specific kind of thing that hadn't quite
happened before that I was sure was going to happen,
and then the fucking thing happens. Um, are there particular

(26:23):
things you are worried about in especially like once this
comes through like that, that are kind of on your horizon,
Like is there stuff that that people need to be
kind of preparing for in terms of like an escalation
in direct action against clinics. Absolutely, I mean we're already
seeing increased threats against clinics UM. This this bomb threat

(26:48):
the other day was a test balloon, right, But there
are organizations like POW who are actively aggressively invading clinics
on the regular and doing things like stealing product of
conception Fetle remains right and parading them out to the
public and naming doctors UM in an effort to get

(27:08):
them hurt. Right, it's it's stochastic terrorism. They're not they
are not going to be the ones to pull the trigger.
They are just putting it out there so that somebody
else does the dirty work for them. And so many
people are guilty of that. Right. The church at Plant
Parenthood is another good example. And they've had you know,

(27:28):
they've had a long presence and spoken um. They moved
to Knoxville, Tennessee, they've set up church plants in Birmingham,
and they've they've been throughout um Oregon and and in
Oregon they were hiring the Crow Boys as their security,
which eventually, unsurprisingly turned into a big fight when counter

(27:51):
protesters showed up, the police showed up, tear guessed everybody,
it's like, how is what? How is this church to?
You know, like, what is anybody trying to get out
of this? And and so there's a lot of people
who have been putting it out there for a long
time that there's all this other ring language of calling

(28:11):
people demons because it makes them easier to kill. There's
going to be clinic violence. I mean, there's going to
be more clinic violence. I should say. All of this
is violent. It's violent to have people out there screaming
at you and calling you a horror with a giant
sign of fetus, you know parts and then but I

(28:32):
mean they're really waiting for somebody to like more buildings
on fire or shoot somebody, and it's going to happen. Yeah,
Well does anyone else have anything to get into here?
On that happy note that happy think. It's just it's
not going to be like actual Nazi extremists that do

(28:53):
a lot of these attacks either, I think, especially with
it of being especially if if like if rov Wood
does get fully taken away, that will justify pretty violent
action in the minds of like most regular Christians. Even
when I grew up in like a pretty evangelical uh,
type of community. Those types of attacks against planned parenthood

(29:15):
were almost that like there was the there was the
overall feeling that they were like celebrated, and people who
would do it would be lauded it as like biblical heroes,
um for for like for like just our sending a
building like that. That was very much the sense that
I got when I was a kid, Like I I
remember thinking thinking those thoughts, like, oh, that's what like

(29:36):
a good people do. Like that's like people who are
brave will go and burn down an abortion clinic. They
were openly celebrated. You know, the Army of God would
have the White Rose banquet to raise money by auctioning
off the personal effects of people who had bombed clinics
and shot doctors. And you see a lot of that
mirrored now in things like the Saints Calendar, right, and

(30:00):
and so you see you see neo Nazis and other
white supremacists promoting the Saints Calendar and then directing people
to the Army of God website. And then you see
Christian nationalists finding accelerationist handbooks and having that knowledge now, right,

(30:21):
and so they can have the knowledge and loosely collaborate
without ever having to say, oh, I'm a part of
you know Front or the Prowboys or whatever. Like, they
won't see themselves as extremists. They'll see themselves as like
regular Christians. They'll see them as regular Conservatives. And what
they're doing is like is like sanctioned by God and

(30:41):
it's like good, righteous, holy work. Um. So I think
that is definitely something to keep your eye on because
it's not all going to be like skull mask wearing
people doing bomb threats. It's going to be like regular,
like regular conservative Christians who are who are like been
on this words tracked the past the past few decades.

(31:02):
Most of the people that we track are are not
part openly part of extremist group well not openly part
of like known militant extremists, right, but um, a lot
of them are hold office. You know, there is Derek
Evans was in West Virginia. You've got um John Jacob

(31:26):
in Indiana, like the whole Oklahoma contingent, like Abolish Human
Abortion has really just become a lobbying group that's trying
to get people in office wherever they can. There's I mean,
they've gotten really strategic about getting people into smaller um
legislative roles so that they have more power to push

(31:47):
things and and so that they look more respectable. Yeah,
and it's that leads kind of to another point, which
is that when you get right down to it, once
the ruling comes through finally, as it looks like it will,
the vast majority of violence that's going to be done
to abortion providers and too people seeking abortions into people

(32:08):
supporting them, is going to be done by police. Like
that's the that's the eventual end game here. Yeah, And
that's that's the thing I'm the most afraid of, right
because it's so much easier to turn somebody in than
it is to actually attack a person physically or a
building even, And so that's what it's going to be.
It's going to be people calling in their neighbors, calling

(32:29):
in something from the hospital, turning in their grandkids. You know, well,
is there anything right now that's making you optimistic? Cat,
Not to put you on the spot, No, No, it's okay.
I thought about that a lot. I mean, honestly, the
people working in this are so dedicated to helping people

(32:51):
that that always gives me hope. And I genuinely feel
like there's enough of us that have plans. Um. You know,
even if even if not everybody's on board with the
same stuff, there are enough people really doing the hard
work and being pragmatic about what's happening and not just
cowing under the pressure of it that are energized by

(33:13):
helping people that I think there will always be people helping.
They might not always be visible, but they're there and
it's just going to be harder to find them. So yeah, Um, well,
thank you so much. UM. Do you have anything else
you'd like to plug before we kind of roll out here?
Any place people could donations are volunteer if they're into that. Oh,

(33:37):
I mean, you can always donate to Abortion Access Front
where a front dot org and um, there's a volunteer
form there. But also if you want to participate in
our event on July sevent you can go to Operations
Save Abortion dot com. Uh, and there's a registration form
there to get involved in the event. Awesome. UM, well,

(34:00):
thank you so much, Kat Green. You are amazing and
what you do is incredibly important. Um. And to everybody else, UM,
go find some way to help or you know, at
least uh, it's easy to pee in a water balloon
and sorry. Okay, well, let's that it happened here work, Yes, nice,

(34:43):
nice introducing you got it? Yeah, this is this is
it could happen here at the podcast where it has happened.
Your host Christopher Wong with me. We have like seve
and teen thousand people. We've got Garrison, yep, got We've

(35:04):
got We've got Sophie, I've got Robert allegedly, We've got
we've got Sharine, the first time friend of the pod,
Sharene Hello, teammate. And we have returning I think, yes, yeah, returning.
Well I'm trying, I'm trying to think, but yeah, yeah, yes,

(35:32):
and creator of our website that I love. I'm so glad.
I'm so glad you like it. Love. Yeah, And we
we are gathered here today to talk about something that sucks,
which is, uh, the elite draft of Samuel Alito's decision
to overturn Rope Wade. It's now we're all mostly angry

(35:54):
that somebody dared to leak a draft and upset the
sanctity of the Supreme Courts deliberation in process. Right right,
That's definitely the thing that's been keeping me awake at night. Yeah. Yeah,
A bunch of elderly ghouls who refused to give up
their grip on power can't deliberate in privacy. What does
this world come to? M Yes, it's been me all along.

(36:21):
How can I trust the Supreme Corps if not? Everything
happens in secret all of the time, always my in.
On a serious note, I would like to start this
by stating my primary attitude towards the Supreme Court is
that more stairways should be greased. Um anyway, that's my contrabation.

(36:44):
We have been big proponents of horse loop for years, years, years,
and this stands continues. I think horse loop could solve
a lot of problems, could so many. So I do
think it is especially cross that like there's the whole
side of media people who are making the story out

(37:05):
that oh no, look at this leak. That is the
worst thing to happen in human history. I can't believe
this got leaked, and that is like a pretty dominant
narrative going on for like over half the country, even
like even on like CNN. That was like the first thing.
It's pretty funny too because like the original road decision

(37:27):
also got leaked. I had the text, but like the
way it was the ruined verdict was gonna go also
got leaked. It's like, okay, it's like this is actually
consistent about this. It's clearly, like I I get why
the Republicans who are doing it right, because it's a
way number one that they can pretend to be victims.

(37:47):
There's a lot of people comparing it to like the
January sixth and ship. Um, yeah, sorry, it's the comparison
to be made. There is not that the leak happened, no,
and like should it's like it leaked, Yeah, okay, how
about the fact that the information instide leak is dangerous

(38:08):
and it's going to cause a bunch of people today. Also,
there should be more leaks of government things all the time.
That's actually yeah, yeah, yeah. The government should not be
allowed to keep secrets Like I'm sorry, we don't. They're
really they're called civil servants and they're doing everything in secret,

(38:28):
like we're supposed to know. I mean, in the perfect world,
they're spying on us. We have no privacy. Yeah, yeah, exactly,
Like it's only fair. It's also like you, I mean,
I guess maybe we'll eventually find out who did it,
but like it's also we don't have to assume that
it was a progressive that did it. For example, Like
I think the conservatives have even more of a motive

(38:49):
to release it because they're like mobilizing. There are people
to agree and be like, yes, do we do we
want to do the weird Screme Court inside baseball ship?
Like okay, so the weird inside baseball ship is So
this is a draft decision, right, this decision Like hasn't
that this is this is not the law of the
land yet. And the thing with draft decisions that they change,

(39:12):
and the thing that's happening here is there's this weird split.
There's there's like a three to to split on like
what actually, yeah, that that makes up seven? Right, I'm
like what actually? Because like the five conservative justices like
don't like row, but there's a mean, particularly with like Roberts,

(39:34):
there's a there's kind of a split on like how
far they want to take it. And so part of
what could be going on here is like so this
the version of decision that got leaked is like this
is basically the most extreme thing they could possibly do.
I Arranging impacts on how we view personal rights. Uh,

(39:56):
I mean, it's it's they can talk about it later
and like this is you know, this is the thing.
Like like the nerd like Supreme Court watchers like didn't
think that like this would be the thing, right, They
didn't think they would just straight up overturned Row. They
thought they would ship at it a little bit first,
like go after Casey. But like no, no, no, that
they're just they're just straight up going after Row. And
part of what could be the strategy here is like

(40:19):
a lot of Okay, so the liberals on the Supreme
Court like have been effectless and powerless for an enormous
amount of time, and a lot of what they spend
their time doing is trying to like get one or
two sentences changed to be slightly less bad. And this
could be an attempt to get the other conservative justice
is to like force them to rally around. Aldo's like

(40:42):
unbelievably hard and there were there were thing that that's
worth noting about this is that like Aldo, Aldo is
like I don't know, I mean cavn Cavanaugh. Okay. So
for for a very long time, Aldo was like broadly
considered by the legal community to be the worst legal
mind in the Supreme Court. Like he's a clown. He's
like he's he's legal reasoning is is really bad. Like

(41:02):
even even by this, like you know, and this this
has changed with and become a Barrett and cav It
all to it to some extent, but like this is
not this is not a guy. This is not like
a subtle like a subtle legal mind. This is like
this is like a bull in a china shop who
you throw out when you need to just like hit
something with a hammer, right, and so you know, like yeah,
part part of what the strategy seems to be is

(41:23):
to try to try to coerce the other justices who
are like like like Roberts, who was like slightly less
fanatical than Aldo, is to try to get them to
rally around this like incredibly maximalist, hardlined not only going
after Row, but going after like a whole bunch of
other stuff that we will get to in a second. Yeah.

(41:43):
So that that's that's the that's the sort of Supreme
Court insight baseball ship. That is possibly part of what's
going on with the league. But yeah, I mean, to
be honest, I think that's whatever is going on in
the league. The primary topics of interest to most people
are going to be number one, the degree to which

(42:04):
the rights trying to use this to distract from what
they're actually doing. Uh. And more to the point, the
concerted the fact like this is what we're actually dealing
with here is like the culmination of forty is years
of pretty relentless um. I mixed it pretty relentless electoralism
um married to a very effective direct action terrorism campaign

(42:25):
that has netted the right a tremendous uh win here. Yeah,
I mean like and I feel like this it's a crisis,
but it hasn't been treated as a crisis. And like
when fucking Democrats campaign, this is like such an urgent matter,
and as soon as they're elected, it's suddenly like not
as urgent. Like look at fucking Biden. He ran on

(42:47):
literally caught like codifying it. He ran with that promise
and obviously that didn't happen. Um. And then there's also,
like to Robert's point from earlier, these justices are just
like ancient and don't give up their power. And I mean,
there's no use in pointing fingers, even though I like
to do it. So like RBG, for example, like if
she had just retired at her fucking time, maybe there

(43:11):
would be like one more justice that could fucking help
us out. But there's a lot. I mean, she's got
her share of the blame. There's also the fact that
we've had I think six justices appointed by Republicans in
the last thirty years, and only one of those Republicans
actually won the popular vote, um, which was the goal.
This is not just One of the most important things

(43:31):
to understand about the anti abortion movement is that it's
not center like it didn't start and it's not centered
around abortion. It is centered around reversing all social progress
of the last century. And the inciting incident was the
integration of schools. Right. This all started over Brown versus
the Board of Education. Abortion was just the thing they
realized it was easier to rally people around than segregation. Um.

(43:55):
And that's what we're dealing with right now. So that
the fundamentally this has always been an democratic movement. This
has always been about codifying into law and locking into
place for essentially forever, a minority rule in which Christian
extremists would get to govern the much larger chunk of
the country that does not believe in those sort of things. Yeah,
and I think that's also worth mentioning anytime someone talks

(44:17):
about this, because the media does, like the media just
runs pr for the anti abortion movement, which is that
this is unbelievably unpopular, like staggering lee unpopular. Nobody wants this.
This is like, this is this is less like you
can pick it like this is less popular than invading
fantasy countries that don't exist. Like if if if you
like this, this is this is significantly less popular, then uh,

(44:39):
then the burning police stations down. We have the pulling
data on that. It's like less popular than the lightning
police stations on fire, Like it is unbelievably staggering lye
unpopular people. No one wants this except for a a
very very very well organized, very politically connected, very wealthy,
and very powerful clique of Christian fascists. Yeah, well, the

(45:01):
laws never reflect what the most of the population wants though, right,
like exactly like the popular vote for example, as you
mentioned earlier. So it's like I think there was a
poll I was reading about this yesterday in June of
last year. Percent of people thought abortions should be legal
for for for any reason, like there's no doesn't have
to be like any kind of thing. So it's like

(45:23):
it's and there's so many polls that also just like
prove that most people don't want this hard and fast rule.
But yeah, the both parties i think utilize it to
rally together people to vote, but obviously for different causes. Yeah,
And like the first reaction from from from Democrats was, hey,

(45:43):
donate to our campaign. It's like, oh my god, honey,
read the room. You have all the power and quotes
right now and you've done nothing. It's like vote blue.
Dare dare saying that, and you get attacked by other
Democrats by being like a radical leftist ruining movement because

(46:04):
like it's not their faults. And I'm like, you, you've
had power multiple times in my thirty years of life
where you could have done it easily. Yeah, like like
and this is this is one of the things that like, okay,
like this stuff doesn't work on me because I remember
when Obama had a two thirds majority in the sty Yeah,
they had a filibusterproof majority in the Senate, had the House,

(46:25):
and not only did he not do this, Obama by
by two ten, Obama is codifying anti is codifying anti
abortion stuff of codifying the High Amendment. So yeah, it's
like no, like, and this is the this is the
thing with the Democrats rates like, this is the best
thing that's happened to the Democrats since Trump left office.
Like the Democratic Party they love this. This is the best.
This is the best thing they could possibly happen to them,

(46:46):
because now what they can do is they can run on,
we're going to bring abortion back every single election cycle,
and they never do it right because everything because they
they'll they'll never like the stuff that they run on,
Like yeah, they'll, they'll they'll like they will even even
if they got another somehow by like magic, if they
somehow got their six vote majority, they find a way
to not do it because this, this is this is
a permanent fundraising thing for them, and they're they're desperately

(47:07):
in need of money all the time always. So if
you take that away, like during my brief stint in
the California Democratic Party, fundraising was always a big deal.
And they didn't want to divest from fossil fueling cops
because then where would the money come from. You can't
take campaigning on row away from them because then like

(47:27):
they don't fucking know how to activate grassroots organizers. It
scares the ship out of them, so they will be
fucked if they lose this, which is why nothing has happened.
Speaking speaking of money, do you know who else wants
your money? That's that's right. The products and services that
support this podcast, that's right. Uh. You know certain may

(47:50):
make you infertile. So that's not doing this today. We
are back, um. I think it's so we'll be We'll
be talking about Supreme Court abortion stuff for a lot
in the coming months. Um. We'll be talking about very
different facets of it. Um. Different like mutual aid, like

(48:13):
in ways of going about kind of filling in the
gaps which are going to become larger, um, and a
whole bunch of other stuff relating to like right wing
terrorism against abortion clinics and all that kind of stuff. Um.
The other interesting aspect about this that I want to
kind of briefly talk about is that with the specific
phrasing of the le talcument is it it threatens a

(48:35):
whole like sect of personal rights, not just abortion rights, um,
and could have far raging impacts, uh, in terms of
like privacy rights, in terms of possibly even backtracking on
stuff like gay marriage, and a whole bunch of other things.
It's like it's obviously the abortion angle itself is pretty

(48:56):
massive and it affects you know, half half the population
should uh, But there's a whole lot of other stuff
that isn't that that indicates this, like this trajectory towards
this type of like right wing fundamentalist of Christian like
Christian fascist effort to hack away at all the things

(49:18):
that they deem degenerate or things that they deem is undesirable. Well,
I mean, the goal is to make America Christian nations
so Jesus can come back and rule it. And you
can't do that if you know, people are gay, or
people are allowed to be on birth control, or people
are allowed to marry outside of their race, or go
to school with people who don't look like that, Like

(49:40):
I did read Jesus to say all of those things. Yeah,
it's it's definitely in the Bible somewhere, if you if
you do like that poetry style where you blot out
some of the words to make other words, which is mary. Yes,
the thing we gotta get into that, I think is

(50:03):
the primary question people have right is like beyond sort
of the doom scrolling of of all of this and
all of the fear about like what's going to happen
to oh berge Vell and Lawrence v. Kansas and all
this stuff. What are they going to go for next?
Is like what actually will work to oppose this ship? Right? Um,
we at the moment, I have not seen and I
don't believe there's any objective signs that Democratic Party is

(50:25):
going to be particularly useful in stymying any of this bullshit. Um,
Cinema and Mansion have already come out against removing the filibuster.
Mansion has come out against voting at all in order
to codify abortion access into into law in any kind
of federal way. Um. And yeah, I get the sense

(50:46):
that for most of them it's a big fundraising opportunity.
Now we do have. That's not to say it's all
bad news, because it is kind of there's a possibility
that this will have a significant impact on the mid terms. Um.
We got one kind signed that where the race in
Michigan that just ended, the special district or the special
election where um, for the first time in quite a while,

(51:09):
a district that Trump carried by like sixteen points went
to a Democrat. Uh. Now, the Republican that they were
running against was the guy who said that women should
lie back and enjoy it if they were getting raped. Uh,
So this is one of those like, I don't know
how much we should see that as particularly emblematic of
how things are going to more broadly go, but this

(51:30):
does have there's an activation potential, right because outside of
the fact that the Democratic Party, you know, and as
a whole is feckless and primarily method of fundraising for
rich people. Um, actual Democratic voters are rightfully horrified about
what's going on, and this has there's a potential here
to activate a lot of people and get them organized

(51:51):
in a productive way. So I think that has to
be on our minds. And so there's a mix of
I don't want to discount electoralism, but I think that
in the immediate term one of the things that people
are going to have to do is provide actual material
ways for folks to get access to the healthcare that's
going to be increasingly denied to them. Now. Um, we
get a couple of episodes earlier in the year with

(52:13):
Michael Lawfer of the voor Thieves Vinegar collective He's just
gone viral, and a Vice article about the hacked abortion
pills that that they've been guiding people in how to
make UM. I think stuff like that is really useful.
When I started posting about this online, someone pointed out
that UM pro abortion activists in Germany recently flew drones

(52:35):
across the border to Poland to drop off MIFA prostall
like abortion pills which were picked up by people in Poland. UM,
and there's there's some there's going to be increasing kind
of organizing around that stuff, like the Jain Collective. UM
people are already organizing and from like national organizations to
increase access and states where it's going to remain legal

(52:57):
for people out of state. So I think that's going
to be hugely importan UM. Does anyone else have sort
of ideas on kind of what what things people can
do when are going to be doing to push back
against this, because I do think it's got to be twofold.
It's got to be both, you know, pushing back in
sort of a legal sense and also pushing back by
direct action in order to ensure that people still have

(53:18):
access to this stuff. I don't know, I don't have
faith in electoral electoral anything. Uh So I really think
like if there's if it's possible to find your own
community and like just almost like with I don't know,
just mobilizing your actual peers versus like trying to trust

(53:40):
anyone with power to get anything done. Because maybe I'm
a pestimist. Maybe I'm just a pessimist. But what you
said earlier about the person she was running against, what
I heard is that that person was still running and
people like he was still the number two, you know,
And I think on the other side there, their side
is also going to rally against stuff like didn't Oklahoma

(54:00):
just passed like the most restricted and ever and just
yesterday at time of recording. Yeah, so in this law,
women can be punished up to ten years in prison
for gonna get abortion and like in pair, like just
for some perspective, rapists in Oklahoma get five years. So
it's like stuff like that is happening in all these states,

(54:22):
and because these states people with with less resources maybe
don't have their ability to travel so far, I think
really mobilizing communities a little bit more uh maybe just
more effective in my opinion. Yeah, I mean, we have
to mobilize communities, but you also can't. It can't just
end at we're going to try to like provide these

(54:44):
people with an option to get out of the state
or get access where they are, like clandestinely. If it's
limited to that, they're going to push to make all
this more illegal federally, and they're just going to keep
throwing people in prison and using the police as the
enforcement arm of this stuff. There does have to be
there has to be a broader counter you know, I'm
thinking back to like, and I'm not talking about like

(55:07):
picking a dude to vote for. I'm talking about like
in Mexico, right when they were talking about UM making
abortion illegal, activists attempted to light the Capitol building on
fire UM and like that that that kind of like
there has to be there has to be a broader
two thirds of the country thinks this is bullshit. There

(55:28):
has to be a way of getting those people organized
in a way beyond dealing with the acute problems caused
by this. Like yeah, and I don't entirely know what
that looks like, but no, that makes sense that you're
right and makes sense. Well, and I think I think
that there have been signs that it's started, Like so,
I mean, there there's obviously, like there were protests like
they've been protests, like literally since the thing came out.

(55:51):
They were especially Yeah. Also, I mean I think I
think part of like this sort of like yeah, what
did you see when you can see this sort of
like I don't know, you can see the way that
people haven't I guess fully internalized the fact that the
stage is just trying to do this to them, and
that like you know, if you look at the barricades
that were put up, right, like you could just push

(56:13):
those over, like and then there you have you had
a bunch of people who are extremely angry and they
sort of just sat there and did nothing right and
like this is this is the kind of thing that like,
you know, if you look at what happened in l A.
There there is a lot of protest in l A.
And like the department, like Homeland Security was on the
street beating people, and I think if if if there's
like okay, So, one thing it's important to keep in

(56:34):
mind is that this still again this this the ruling,
the draft of the ruling is not the actual ruling.
Right there is still time right now in between when
this in between this leak and when this is actually decided,
there is still time to literally force the court to
not do this, so start greasing those stairwells people. Yes, well,

(56:56):
I think here's a few notes. Um. So one, I
think it's it's going to be used to encourage action
on all sides. Uh, there's what it's gonna This is
going to be seen as a victory for the right,
and they're going to use this momentum to mobilize further, uh,
to to put more further antibortion stuff into law, and
to encourage people to take vigilante justice out on healthcare providers. Um.

(57:19):
The second thing is direct action for of trying to
alter the ruling before it happens. Like there is a
chance to do mass mobilization. Uh, there's a chance if
we frames if things are framed correctly, you can bring
a lot of liberals out and convince them and suggest
to them that they can that they could do things

(57:39):
that they ordinarily maybe wouldn't do. Uh. There's that is
that is an entirely uh, entirely possible scenario. Just in
my in my episodes about the Atlanta Forest from a
few days ago, I discussed the shack method of protest. Now,
this this isn't this isn't this doesn't carry over one
to one because that is pretty focused on doing economic targeting.

(58:03):
But the whole idea of targeting people outside of like
the political space is a key to that. Like people
people don't just do work in the Supreme Court. They
have actual everyday lives, and if you can uh surround
them in their everyday lives, that type of personal pressure
is way more affecting than just yelling at a government

(58:25):
buildings sometimes, um because if we can dissolve this like
safe political like space that people think that they think
they operated in, right, they assume that, oh, I'm I'm
I'm a court justice, I'm a judge. Everything that I
do happens in the courtroom. Right, I'm safe, I'm contained.
Everything is just in the contents of the courtroom. I
don't get to experience consequences for my actions outside the courtroom,

(58:47):
which isn't true because obviously the people, all of us,
do experience those consequences in the real world all the time,
just the people in power don't have to. So instead,
if we can put pressure on people when they're going
about their every day lives in their hanging banners in
their backyard, doing other things. Horse but again, very useful. Um,

(59:07):
that is a that is a way to do types
of protests that we have not seen as much, but
I think is now is probably the time to start
doing that, right. I mean we we saw we saw
stuff after the murder of George Floyd with people surrounding
the house of Derek Chauvin, which police were very angry
about that. There is an indication that hey, this the

(59:31):
state doesn't like it when this happens. Um, it's not.
It's not specifically more legal to stand in the street
of a residential neighborhood. So no, and it's you know,
a lot of protests so far has focused on court buildings,
many of which are federal, and those provide a lot
of benefits to shall we say, the defender, including the
fact that they're already well set up for surveillance. They're

(59:53):
generally fortified. Uh, they have a pretty short logistic tail
to where the state is keeping its weaponry and its
troops as opposed to just kind of fucking with people
in their lives, which is a lot harder for those
kind of militarized responses that lead to large groups of
your friends getting arrested or beat up by Feds. I
think also like, yeah, the tendency to go after like

(01:00:15):
legal buildings is missing the point of where the actual
power is. Like this is the thing which January sixth
too is like yeah, even if like yeah, they took
over the capital and nothing happens. And the reason that
like nothing could happen is because it's just a building, right,
like the the the the actual political system existed dependently
of it, and you have to hit the things that
the system actually cares about, and so like that supports

(01:00:36):
that's roads, that's border crossings, that's things like I why
am I now suddenly vacation homes? Yeah, but like like
but also I mean like okay, like you know, if
if if if there was actually like a way to
stop this, one of the few things that could actually
do it would be a large would be something like
a large skale teacher strike or a thing I've talked

(01:00:56):
about before that is happening this summer is for example,
all the the long Showman contract in uh Oakland is
coming up, right, and like those are the kinds of
things like if you can actually start shutting down large
sections of the U. S economy, the Supreme Court of
Political Actors, they will have to respond to this, and
you can essentially, like like you can you can blackmail

(01:01:20):
them into into into doing the thing that they should
be doing. You can apply targeted pressure economically and personally.
And that's the type of protest that I think it
would be interesting to see where that leads us. They
need to not they like the consequence for both the
political actors who are carrying this out and the people

(01:01:42):
who support them needs to be that they don't get
to live a normal life um that they are, that
they suffer consequences for hurting people. And that means a
lot of things, but among other things, that means that
certain people shouldn't be going to the fucking grocery store
without feeling the hatred, you know, And I think, I
think be able to order delivery and feel secure that

(01:02:02):
what they're gonna eat isn't going to hurt them. Yeah,
And I think also like one of the things that
I remembering from that was actually really effective initially from
the beginning of TRUP administration was the airport protests. And
that's a place that like you wouldn't think you'd be
able to really occupy because again, the amount of security
there was enormous, but like if you have a lot

(01:02:23):
of libs, you can. I remember, like I was, I
was like standing in an airport terminal and there was
a lot of riot cops attacking. Like everyone is like, oh,
we're gonna get attacked, but like there was just enough
like everyone just sat down and there was enough libs
with like their kids that the cops didn't attack. And
that's that. That's a kind of thing that like potentially

(01:02:43):
could be replicated and also could be useful given the
fact that like sometimes cops have like an aversion to
a like stuff that looks really really bad on TV.
Not not always, but like, yeah, this is this is
the thing that can happen. Is the thing that has
happened inner like pretty recently. Yeah we can do again.

(01:03:04):
I don't really trust footage of police brutality to change
things anymore. UM. I feel like we reached the peak
of that, and at this point I think moving on
to targeted pressure towards individuals that whole positions of power
and targeted pressure to the economy. Um. But speaking of
speaking of targeted pressure the economy, a large protest at

(01:03:25):
an airport that the police break up with tear gas
does damage to the economy that the police are the
ones causing um and like it's it's uh, it's one
of those things. As we've stated, courthouse or whatever is
just a building. People can not go into work and
do all of the fund up ship that they're doing
on zoom um. An airport is not just a building,

(01:03:49):
you know, And so a protest at an airport has
some teeth that a protest at a courthouse doesn't. Necessarily,
I do have one, like quick other thing it that
I want to throw out as sort of a means
of uh resistance or action. Is something that I was

(01:04:09):
trained to do growing up. Part of the forest birth
movement is co opting the language that the left uses,
and I think something that we should do and something
that we can all be doing right now is co
opting the language back. So when force birth advocates say
their pro life, come back with how can you be

(01:04:29):
pro life if you want someone to die by having
a pregnancy, and like just sort of taking words and
rhetoric that has traditionally been used to oppress us two
reframe it and be like, no, actually, you're the one

(01:04:50):
who's telling on yourself here, and you're the one who
is forcing people literally to die in multiple ways. You
cannot be pro life if support people who already exist
dying and just sort of thinking about that a little bit.
If you don't necessarily have the energy to go stage
protest at the airport, yep, that is a great line

(01:05:12):
to end on end on um. Everybody go out, and again,
you know, our sponsors are the Klein and Stupil Hip
Surgery Center in Washington, d C. So please do keep
greasing those stairways. Everybody welcome to It could happen here,

(01:05:46):
the podcast that's happening here right now, in your ears,
it could happen here. I'm Robert evans Um. I'm I'm
not with any of my normal UH co hosts today
because as fuck them now, because I'm elsewhere in the
world right now, hanging out with someone you might remember
from a special episode we recently did on Molotov Cocktails,

(01:06:08):
journalist James Stout. Hi. Everyone, Yeah, I'm here with Robert
in a tiny hotel room and we've just worken up
we had to do some podcasting. Yeah, we're not We're
not here for any specific purpose. We just decided let's
run a hotel room cast some pods, you know, hang out. Um, James,
how do you feel about the border? Negatively? Broadly speaking,

(01:06:30):
I think the border is a tool that we used
to harm and kill the most marginalized people in the world.
I think that's kind of borne out by stats as well.
So not a big not a big border guy. Yeah.
And you and I recently spent a decent amount of
time on the Texas Mexico chunk of the border, specifically
near McAllen, Texas, hanging out at a butterfly sanctuary that

(01:06:51):
people can learn some things about if they Google will
be coming out that those episodes will be dropping in
the not too distant future. Um. But you live on
the San Diego side of the order, UM, which, if
people don't know, San Diego, California is basically in Mexico. Um,
you can you can hop over across for like lunch
and stuff if you really want to and don't mind
dealing with CBP. UM. And Yeah, so I you've done

(01:07:14):
a lot of reporting around the border and about kind
of the system of violence that it represents. UM. I
wanted to chat a little bit like about that, and
I wanted to chat about some of the organizations that
you've run into that are doing good work out there
because there's a lot that needs to be done. Yeah, definitely,
I think, Um, I think it's really important to like
conceptualize what's happening at the border in terms of like

(01:07:36):
the border is a tool for state violence, right, state
violence against marginalized people, and like what the good group
groups helping people on the boarder represent is like ways
of us helping each other which are outside the networks
of us having power over each other. Right, So in
the broader spectrum of like neutral aid of mutual support, like,
I think they're really important to focus on rather than
kind of so many people construct the border in their minds,

(01:07:59):
Like you can if you go back on my Twitter,
some guy just being like that is not the border.
The border does not look like that. The border is
barren and it's desert and it's full of people with
guns and it's really not right. Like, so the border exists,
is like this mental construct a place where we can
do like political theater, especially on the right. So people
who are actually down there on the ground and understand it,
I think it's it's vital to support them. Yeah. One

(01:08:21):
of the more striking moments to me when we were
in McAllen was hanging out near this trunk of border
fence that had been constructed on like by volunteers effectively. Um,
and it's this, it's it's it's what you would expect,
like the stereotype of the border. It's this huge military
industrial looking thing. The wildlife has been cleared from around

(01:08:41):
it so that you can have this towering steel edifice.
But then a hundred yards away across the rio is
the Mexican side of the border, and there's like a
couple of goat farms and like a little restaurant with
a little dock so people can like you know, take
their little boats out and people are drinking and there's
party music laying and like it's it's nice. It's pastoral

(01:09:02):
and green. It was. It looked like a lovely place.
It looked much nicer than hanging out by the giant
steel tower. Yeah. I found that all along the border actually,
like we are side of the border looks like something
from a Blade Runner or something like. It's this giant
dystopian steel construct with with people with guns, with watch towers,
and it's horrific, right, Like it cuts through some of
the most beautiful and important landscapes we have right through

(01:09:26):
the high desert, through this very fragile places, and like
it's important I think people understand as well what the
border wall looks like, right because you've probably seen a
photograph of giant ass wallum and that is part of it.
But they got it the border wall ecosystem, and what
that involves is the wall itself, sometimes a ditch, sometimes
not a ditch, and then a road that's wide enough

(01:09:49):
for two of the f one fifty raptors Border Patrol
like to drive to pass each other, and then access
road to that, and then generally there's also an access
road cut that allows construct vehicles to get to build
all of that. So it's not just some spikes in
the desert. It's fucking destroying this beautiful part of both
of Mexico and the United States. Right now, before we

(01:10:11):
get into some of these organizations, I'm wondering, first off,
when did you start reporting on the US Mexico border
and is there any kind of specific events that that
you can recall that really kind of ignited your your
interest in this particular like part of the United States,
in this particular part of like our ongoing social conflict. Yeah, like,

(01:10:35):
I've always been interested in borderlands, like academically and as
part of my PhD UM. But I guess I've probably
about eight or nine years i've been reporting on the border.
The thing that really sort of took it from being
like a the border is sometimes I think I write
about I did a lot of outdoor writing about the
border to right. It was very interesting in getting more
people to go outside in Baha, California. It's amazing and

(01:10:59):
you should do it. But what really sort of I
guess made me be like Gulf funk, this is fucking horrible.
U is quote unquote migrant caravan. Right. So I've been
down just just enjoying a weekend in Fettle further south
and but little further south of Tijuana and having a
really good wine country there. So we've been checking out

(01:11:20):
these wine places and just enjoying ourselves. And we come
back and then these people are in um what's called
the Benito Kuaida's Sports Complex. It's just a baseball field
and it's raining and it's November, and it looks like
a fucking Battle of the Somme in there. You know,
it's mud. They're little children, And I've been in these

(01:11:41):
situations before. I've I've seen situations with displaced people before,
but there was something that just broke my heart about like,
so obviously we're gonna go in, right, We're gonna see
what's going on. We're going to see what we can
do to help. And they're little kids. I remember there
was this little girl and it's one still makes me
really sad. But she would find me. There were thousands

(01:12:02):
of people there. Every single time I came, she would
find me. It found me the first day and she
would like we talked for a little bit about what
she was doing, and then she was standing like halfway
up her little shins in mud and she didn't have
any works like shower or be clean. You know. She
was living in a sort of tarp shelter. And it

(01:12:22):
just fucking broke my heart. So he said she used
to plack my hair a lot so and carry her around,
And that was just like this realization for me, like
of how cruel this thing is. Shortly thereafter, of course,
the police stood in the parking lot of the Tommy
Hill Figure discount store in order to fire tear gas.
It's some of the most marginalized and desperate people certainly

(01:12:45):
in that part of the world, right, and just that
it's it's a scene that like, yeah, that would if
you put that in a movie, you would be like
it was a little bit heavy handed, right, having them
shoot from the tummy hill finger at the desperate migrants.
That's a little bit heavy Yeah, yeah, it's it's just
dis advanced fucking parody of where we are at a society.
But yeah, the the DHS helicopter is taking off from

(01:13:05):
the Tommy Hill Figure store to fire tear grass grenades
at the children who just want a safe place to sleep.
I had a moment like that in a protest where
the Portland Police. We were in um uh North Portland, um,
which is like in a neighborhood that was like one
of the fairly few like black neighborhoods in Portland, and
the cops, you know, when apeship and started firing impact

(01:13:27):
munitions down Martin Luther King Boulevard. And I didn't catch
myself at first, and I was like, the cops are
now shooting down Martin Luther. Yeah, you've been in and
around like you you live there obviously, so who are like,
who are some of the folks that you've come across
that are doing the most to actually help there, and
what kind of help, like it is necessary because I

(01:13:49):
feel like one of the one of the things I
think is the primary shortcoming of it could happen. Here
is a show so far? Is that the way Garrison
and I phrase it is like a lot of our
episodes are here's a problem them goodbye. Right, We're like,
here's the thing that's bad. Off we go. So what
I guess the two chief questions I think they need
to be answered because I'm hoping pretty much everyone here

(01:14:11):
is on board with the border is a nightmare. Uh,
something's got to be done. What are the kind of
things that can actually materially improve people's lives who are
being affected by this border ecosystem? And then who are
the motherfucker's who are actually out there trying to unfunck
things that to the extent that unfucking is doable here. Yeah,
So I think like just to further like make people sad. First, like,

(01:14:34):
if you look up de Colonial Atlas Southern Border, you
can find this map of where migrants die when they're
coming to the United States, right, and were often it's
constructed in the news media, is like it's dangerous crossing Mexico.
It is. It's it's dangerous coming across the Darien Gap,
sure it is. But the vast bulk of people die
within a few miles of our southern border, right. And
that's because, especially now with the way we've constructed the

(01:14:56):
border wall. Right before the action, Donald Trump in a
debate made claims about how much border wall he'd built.
Like everything else, he was full of shit. So they
just tried to build as much as they could between
them and the election. So they just skip the hard parts,
skip them out in to skip the valleys, and that
often forces people to cross in the most arduous terrain, right,
So that that's increased the amount of people dying. So

(01:15:20):
we can look broadly at like two categories of support, right,
which are like, um, I guess like direct aid and
then legal aid. So um, on the legal aid side,
the guys who guys and girls and other people who
who have been really really helpful to the other side
right there there, Legal aid group. They were very very

(01:15:41):
cool during the during the microt care event, like they
and I realized that something about a loaded phrase, right,
I'm just trying to use a word that people will
understand they were there constantly helping people with good course letters.
They were there filing legal briefs on their behalf. As
a result of that, many of them were illegally surveiled
by the Department of Homeland Security. We had the phones taken,

(01:16:02):
the communications trace, their movements traced, their network trace, etcetera.
They are wonderful people, right like, they do amazing things
with helping people get legal aid um. And then you've
got the people who are helping people while they cross right,
and there are a number of these mutual a groups.
If you're in a certain region there at the border,

(01:16:23):
there is probably someone near you. I'm no expert on
all of them, but you can look at like no
Massa Weds in Arizona Armadio's believe. I think they, I
don't know. They operate also in Texas, but certainly in
that California Arizona area. You can look at border angels.
A border angels are probably the biggest, most public facing one,
and they are fantastic right They're out there making sure

(01:16:45):
that there are cashes of water for people who are crossing,
making sure that when it's cold at night there are
warm clothes, and when it's hot there are clothes suitable
for that weather, right, maybe in a new backpack, canned food.
They're like doing the active stuff that stops people or dying. Um,
And that's invaluable, right, And it's also important in terms
of showing that like they'll often right things I've seen

(01:17:07):
like like you're welcome, right, welcome to this country or whatever.
It's showing that most of us don't agree with this
dehumanizing brutalization of migrants that state is doing on our behalf,
and so showing that welcome it's very important. There are
lots of indigenous groups. Um. I did ask if I
could name them, but that they didn't get back to me,
so I don't want to. But like there are groups
within the toronaud M nation and their groups within the

(01:17:28):
Kumi nation. I'm sure there are groups within other tribes
whom the border crossed, right, who lived in this area
long before it was a border, who are also out
there helping people. There are also individuals helping people out
on their property. Right. If you if you can't find
how to donate to one of those groups, you can
reach out to me. That's fine. But yeah, I think

(01:17:50):
the work they're doing is invaluable both in terms of
like showing people that they are welcome and in terms
of saving lives. Right, more and more people die at
the border every year, especially Lee with things like Title
forty two, which we can get into with MPP sure.
So Title forty two, it's a public it's part of
a public health law. It's very antiquated. I think it

(01:18:12):
was last used in the nineteen thirties. The idea behind
it was to stop people with tuberculosis coming into the
United States and if they have and um um, if
they have an infectious to transmissible disease I think it's called,
then they can be immediately sent back without processing. Right.
This was part of a whole suite of things that
they used to do to laborers coming north. Right. They

(01:18:34):
would also spray them with all kinds of insecticides, which
obviously is not good for the health. So Title fully two,
the idea being, you know, you get if you present
to me at the border and I'm a border patrol
guy and you're like coughing up a lung and obviously tuberculous, cuberculous,
I don't know, you have to tubercule, yeah, tuberculastic, then

(01:18:56):
I will send you back and just be like, no,
Robert off until you're healthy. You're going to infect everyone
else here, especially if I detain you. Now, what it's
being used to do with COVID nineteen is to not
process migrants right, to do what's called catch and release,
just bump them south and let them go. What that
means is that these so normally you could cross surrender

(01:19:18):
to a CBP AG and that's another miss miss understanding. Right,
a lot of people will want to surrender right there
that they they have no intention of not being processed.
For certain countries is something called a TPS, which I'll
explain in the second, which which there will be no
reason for them not to be processed. So these people
will cross, and now they could just get dumped on
the other side, right, it doesn't matter if they are

(01:19:40):
a person who is pregnant, doesn't matter, if the elderly,
doesn't matter, if there medically compromised. A week, they can't
just get dumped. What this has meant is that people
who are helping them cross, right, people who maybe charge
your fee for helping them cross, are offering like crossings
without limits. You we'll just try again, try again, and
it means, like I said before, because of the combination
this and then this, this hostile infrastructure that we're building, right,

(01:20:03):
this border wall system, that people will try crossing in
more and more remote places. Right. That is when people
die crossing, is when they cry and cross in in
places that are hotter, that are more arduous. Right, it
requires days of walking sometimes and like, and I've been
in that terrain. I spend a lot of my time
out there, and like for a long time it's been

(01:20:24):
more or less my job to be outside out there,
and it is hard. So if I imagine crossing with
everything I need to start my new life and carrying
my child, it's very difficult for me. And I'm more
accustomed to it than most, so it's it's very difficult
and forcing people to just kind of bounce back. Because
when we drop someone in Mexico, right, if they are Guatemalan, Honduran,
they don't have any network there, Right, it doesn't exactly help. Like, uh,

(01:20:51):
like sometimes we like this construct that like the border
fuels crime, right, Like crime is like they talk about
like like sometimes cartels is far too broadly used. Nearly
always it's far too broadly used. But this idea that
the board of funds like drug running an organization such
as that, Well, you don't help by dumping someone where

(01:21:11):
they have no other means of making a living, right,
where they're going to be very poor and now they
don't have any mate and I have anyone to go
to to ask for help, write like, I don't blame
people for trying to find a way to do something
so understandably, like if I don't think I think it's
largely a lie that that any significant number of people
sort of running drugs across the border are migrants or um.

(01:21:35):
You know, I think that's that's largely a racist lie.
But leaving people dislocated there is a recipe for poverty,
and I can't things like crime do happen more. I
guess when people are poor and don't have any other options,
that makes sense if we go back to TPS really quickly,
because I think that's important to temporary protected status. Right,
You'll see people on Twitter talking about TPS. Whether bids

(01:22:00):
only means is that they can't deport you back to
a country. So it took Biden an obscenely long time
to grant a TPS for the people from Ukraine. Right,
Five something people went into the deportation system between the
time in like November December, when Biden's administration started being

(01:22:21):
like there is going to be war in Ukraine and
Russians are going to invade Ukraine, they were still actively
in the process of sending people back to Ukraine at
that time, and it wasn't until about a week into
the shooting war that they said, Okay, Temporary protected DATUS,
we won't send you back. It exists for other countries,
exists for Haiti, it exists for me and mar Burma. Right. Um.

(01:22:42):
I don't know if it exists for Syria or I
think it does, but these countries where basically like, we
won't send you back there. And TPS is very important,
right because it stops people being deported to places where
they will die. And it's important to understand that, like
you could have everything right into am, you're a sign
an application, and still be sent back. It's a cruel

(01:23:04):
and very impersonal system. So a TPS is important and
if you're into sort of advocating for laws, then it's
an important thing to advocate for. I think yeah, Um,
in terms of more, I think that's important because we
we kind of the electoral side of things is not
does not tend to be our focus here, but it's
also not useless. Like the border is one of the

(01:23:24):
areas most clearly where you can see both how advocating
in that realm can immediately improve people's lives and also
how both sides of the political spectrum use the border
as a weapon to hurt. Yeah, exactly. The board is
definitely a stage for both sides political theater. Like look
at Joe Biden, right, he's coming in, he's signing this declaration.
On the first day, Remember the day he was inaugurated,
I went out to the border wall just sat there

(01:23:45):
by myself and like wept because it's just this horrible,
ugly thing that's such a scar on the place that
I love. And uh, he's done fun all right, and
he's deporting more people than Trump and he's building his
own by and barrier, which is the same thing with
that an anti client plate. But yeah, like, even if
you don't agree with the existence of laws and lawmakers, right,

(01:24:06):
this this concept that I like a lot, called normative anarchism.
I think it's Wolf, the guy who wrote it. But
like we can move towards the state doing less cruelty
and being a little more free, and that is a
move in the right direction, even if it's not the
end goal. And I think the border is a place
where you can really make a difference like that, right,
Like some small changes in how things are done would

(01:24:28):
reduce the cruelty to people who have done nothing wrong massively.
So I think it is an area where even those
of us who might not be generally inclined to like
electoral staff like you can I think I don't know
if you can make a distance because like so many
people in Milwaukee are watching Fox News and a fucking
completely convinced that the border is just I don't know,

(01:24:48):
people with guns trying to smuggle children or whatever. But yeah,
it's an area where small changes in policy make a
huge Title forty two right, not even a law, it's
an executive or it's not even executive, or it's an
interpret tation. Uh the war, right, most of that ship
wasn't built by Congress. It was built by executive orders.
So like that stuff, I think is a place where

(01:25:10):
you can you can affect positive change for people now unfortunate.
We've got to drive fucking wall. And I don't think
it's coming down anytime soon. But it doesn't mean we
shouldn't actively try to make things kind of for people
coming here now. On the direct action side of things,
which I think more of our audience tends to support.
One of the most obvious things is just like setting
out as you said, like drops of water, food equipment. Now,

(01:25:32):
that's kind of depending on where you are, can be
shall always say complex from a legal standpoint. Can you
talk to that a little bit, Yes, certainly. So. Like
the obvious cases are one in Arizona, right, which eventually
ended up the person was vindicated, but vindicated to around
word but not didn't go to prison exactly. Yeah, yeah,

(01:25:52):
what he was doing was right from the start. But yeah,
it can be complex, I think, especially if you're in
some of these states which are like doing culture war,
right like Arizona in Texas. Yeah, the cruelty is kind
of the point. So if you are doing something to
alleviate that cruelty, making an example if you was very
much in the interest of those cultural war politicians and

(01:26:13):
judges and other people, which is why it's important to
do it with a mutual aid group, right, Like these
groups are not just like randos, They are extremely organized.
I would also just caution that, like going out into
the desert on your own is extremely fucking dangerous. The
desert can kill you with heat and day. It can
kill you with the cold nights, sometimes on the same
day and night. Right, this is a hard place. I'm

(01:26:36):
not saying you shouldn't go out there. You should. It's
it's an amazing place, but you should be careful. You
should go with the group. So if you're living somewhere
along the border, there is a group of people who
are doing this, they will understand what is legal and correct. Like,
for instance, if you are not a citizen, if you're
a Green card holder, you should probably not go down
to the border with jugs of water. You should maybe

(01:26:56):
do some fundraising, you should you should maybe do something else.
And that's fine, right, You're still part of a system
which is helping people. But yes, there have been some prosecutions.
I think in California there haven't been any to my
knowledge for a while. Um. There is also some interesting
tech developments. One a few a long time ago, now

(01:27:17):
called the trans Border Migrant Tool, which was mapping out
like what at the time, we didn't have the border
wall them, right, but like water cashier's locations of CDP checkpoints,
and then I guess it was using Google Maps to
make roots, which it was created by a faculty member
who at time was at the University of California, who
faced pretty terrible career repercussions for doing it. But there

(01:27:39):
are things like that that people can do too, right,
which you can do from your bedroom if that's your preference,
if that's how you prefer to help. But yeah, I
would caution about just going out there. Always looked for groups, right,
there are people for whom this is their entire life
of activism. You can also I'm sure, I hope I'm
not putting a bunch of like work on their plate.
But talked lad see what they suggest. Right Altro Lado

(01:28:04):
the other side, that's this legal a group you can
just call them. I'm sure that they they think They've
been very helpful to me when I've been when I've
needed help for people I'm working with. Talk to them
about what is what is legal and sensible and what's not.
Whether it's better to give your money or give your
time or what you can do. Give them the resources
available to you, I guess. And you can also just

(01:28:25):
show kindness to refugees in your community too. That they're
probably there, whether or not they're visible is a different question,
but that's you know, there are places where you can
help people. Another one I should mention, actually just for
folks who are inclined to help in a different way
I guess is people just feeding people. Like I really
don't think you can ever blame someone for feeding hungry persons,

(01:28:46):
So food not bombs. Food not bombs are always cool,
right if if you want to do kindness without state
food not bombs, there is one in your area. Look,
come up, um and World Central Kitchen, which is Jose
Andres the chef. Yeahs in Ukraine and his guys just
got Sheldon Ukraine. That's right. Yeah, yeah, a number of
them got shelved in Khaki. But I think those people

(01:29:07):
like I do understand that he has some labor issues. Yeah,
although I think he's he recently like came out and
said that he had been wrong on that. I'd have
to double check, but yeah, that's impressive. Like I've said
this before, this dude pivoted his whole life after seeing
what happened in Haiti to feeding people who are hungry
all over the world. So I do believe he's capable
of change, and hopefully he can change and treat his

(01:29:28):
workers with decency in respect as well. But anywhere I
am right where there is a humanitarian crisis inside the US,
outside the US, those people are there first, They're there
before the Red Cross and if they don't seem to
get tied up in the bureaucratic ship that most large
global NGOs do. Like I've been in refugee camps where
MSF and Red Cross outside not doing anything. Yeah, if

(01:29:51):
you anywhere I have been where there are large groups
of refugees, refugee camps, people dealing with violence. The the
most commonly cursed groups are often in g os, yes, yeah, yeah,
there are you know, people in white Land was people
in fancy hotel lobbies, you know, Like that makes me
very angry and very sad. But I don't see that

(01:30:13):
with w c K, like I have consistently seen them
in there's pretty dire situations, you know, like times that
give me bad sleeps, you know, and that they're always
there helping people. So then there are also church groups
in lots of communities. Like I'm not a religious person,
but like I really can't fault any of these church
groups that I've seen coming down from San Diego to

(01:30:34):
Tijuana to feed and help people, But I would probably
stay clear of those giant NGOs with your giving. I've
just seen them be considered bureaucratic and less effective. Yeah,
I mean one of the rules. This is harder when
it's a conflict far from home and you know, you
see some news that makes you want to help, but
you don't have any connections. But if you can never
talk to people on the ground there, it's always best

(01:30:57):
to ask them, like, who's actually doing anything, um, because
sometimes it is MSF you know, sometimes uh it is
one of these larger organizations, but oftentimes they'll tell you, like,
you know, the the group when I was in Mosle
that got the most consistent praise from people who are
like living there was the Free Barmer Rangers, right, Like
there were all these massive international organizations, but when it

(01:31:18):
came right down to it, the people who were like
running under gunfire to pull wounded civilians out where you
know those folks. Yeah, yeah, those those guys do some
do some very brave stuff. Definitely, And yeah, it is
normally you can find people on Facebook, like I've never
been in a sort of situation with a lot of
displaced people. What people were not actively on Facebook and
you can find people there they just just like you

(01:31:39):
just want to have a chat. And again, it's nice
to have a chat. That's such an important point too,
because I think that number one, people are often and
it's easier, right, Like everyone has limited time, but you
kind of leave it to whatever media you trust to
connect you to people in these desperate circumstances, and like
people tend to want to connect who are dealing with
something like that, who are fleeing violence, who are and

(01:32:00):
they also are connected, like they're not separate from the
rest of the world just because they've had to leave
their home behind and they're they're generally not excluded from
the information networks that we all existed. Yeah, yeah, I think,
And sometimes the portrayed is like we talk about them,
not to them far too often the media, and that
makes me mad, right, Like I see that all the time.

(01:32:21):
I see that happening when I'm doing reporting, right, I'll
see people hanging out on the peripheries in these camps.
I understand some people are worried about COVID or whatever,
but some of those people, right, like, uh, to be
safe and be sensible, and yeah, that these people want
to talk. I remember one thing that always sticks out, Well,
they want the same things that we want, remembered. So
in migrant caravan, they were moved from they need to

(01:32:43):
Quid a sports complex to this old nightclub a bit
further south, further away from the border. Right. It was
a very weird scene. It was this big nightclub with
like the mirrors and the dancing poles and the disco balls,
but it had been like moth balls for like ten years.
It was all dusty. They had a special room for
people who were pregnant, people can people who had had children,

(01:33:04):
and and the young children themselves, right, they were sort
of just to keep them safe. And we were going
there and it was weird because they were still like
mirrors on the floor. But then I remember these kids,
you talk to them, right, you know what do you want?
And like, first of all, one kid asked me for
a Teddy Bear and it just broke my heart, Like
I don't know why, it just level me. Uh. And

(01:33:24):
then they wanted to like you know that they had
enjoyed the same Disney films that kids here had, right,
so my buddy managed to acquire a projector. We went
into the ceiling, rigged up this projector and just set
up like Beverly Hills Chihuahua playing on one water this nightclub.
And these kids are like, it's Beverly Hills Chihuahua. Like
let's go like the you know, they were just kids

(01:33:46):
watching a film, like like like they can be anywhere else,
and it's really easy to see them ast like different
or week or you know. The way they're portraying the
media is like people without agency and they're not like
they've taken huge amounts of agency to try and improve
their lives. And it's also so much focus is on
these things that aren't you know, medicine, food that are necessary,
but like having a normal moment where you're like a

(01:34:10):
kid watching a cartoon or playing with a toy, it's
also necessary. Yeah, Like, these children will be scarred by
their experiences, right by whatever is causing to flee, by
the flight itself, and by the process of coming to
the into the country, but yeah, we should do everything
we can to protect them from those traumatic experiences and
just play Like I cannot count the amount of times

(01:34:30):
I have been like ship housed in a game of
football by six year olds trying to come to the
United States, right like, so things like that, Remember someone
donated a couple of football goals, I too, come down
and set them up. And then yeah, just having those
moments of normalcy, those moments of fun like little little
plastic ukuleles and stuff like. We're very important because it
let kids be kids. And then that's you know, they

(01:34:51):
have every right to do that. Well, James, I think
that's going to make a suda for us. You want
to throw your plug doubles in before we roll out? Yeah, uh,
I want to plug, like like I said before, doing
things to help people outside of networks that let people
have power over people. To do that first, and then yeah,
you can put my name James Stout into Twitter and

(01:35:11):
find me. I have a Patreon by the same thing
right about the border a lot. You can see it
in um if I just plug one popular p O
p U l A about migrant caravan so you can
read my writing there. Feel free to message me if
you want to find any of these groups and you can't. Yeah,
it's all right, Well that's going to do it for us.

(01:35:32):
Go do something good. Yeah, the podcast has started. Start

(01:35:56):
this is this is it could happen here, this is
it could happen here. That's right, and you're Robert Evans.
We also have Shrine, Lanny Nis, and Christopher Wong with us. Christopher, Hi, Yeah,
I guess I'm sort of running this show today, even
to Robert has You're right done? The intro question mark? Um,
always with a question mark. That's how the pros do it?

(01:36:18):
Can you can tell professionals? Yeah? But speak Speaking of professionals,
we have we have Karina Dominga's with us, who is
in fact actually a professional and has spent eight years
working in reproductive health issues of Karina. Welcome to the
show and thank you for joining us. Thank you, thank
you for having me. It's lovely to have you Onina.

(01:36:40):
What's the what's going on? How are thanks? I think
things are okay. I think I can say that doesn't
seem true. Yeah, but they're okay. Um, yeah, okay. I
pulled them out of crash truck once and as I

(01:37:02):
was trying to like staunch the bleeding from a cut
in his hand, I asked how he was and he said, okay,
So I'm guessing it's that kind of Okay, you nailed it. Yeah, Karina,
do you wanna tell us a little bit about your
background and the work that you do? And you know
why why why? We We just really wanted to have
you on the show. Yeah, I would love too. So again,

(01:37:24):
my name is Karina Dominguez. I am from Chicago born
and raised. UM. I've worked in Reproductive Health forum about
eight years, but really what I consider about fifteen years
or so. UM. I have experience and working in the
community and different capacities. UM. I love reproductive health. I'd
consider myself a reproductive health nerd UM. And it all
started when I was a teenager growing up in Chicago,

(01:37:46):
where just in the city life, you see a lot
of things that don't really sit well with you. UM.
I knew a lot of young girls who were getting
pregnant at young ages, experiencing trauma and specifically sexual trauma UM,
and not knowing who to go to or where to go.
So these were mostly young girls of color who I
cared for a lot. And I immediately knew that I

(01:38:07):
wanted to do more activism and that I needed to
do more activism. And the way my activism looks is
through my education. So today. I have a master's in
Public Health UM and I also have a bachelor's in
public health, and with that education, I've been able to
provide sexual and reproductive health counseling. I practiced as a
full spectrum do LA where I have provided abortion care

(01:38:30):
for people and also UM provided birthing care for people
as well. I led a pregnant parenting program at a
nonprofit for youth experiencing homelessness, and right now I currently
manage a sexual and Reproductive health grant where we provide
resources to treatment centers in the l A area to
integrate sexual and reproductive health for patients in substance use

(01:38:52):
disorder treatment. Cool, so we are slacking. That was an
impressive Yeah, I think the thank you that made us
want to chat with you. We were having a conversation
show when the news first dropped that the Supreme Court
was yeating Roe v. Wade into the sun UM. There

(01:39:15):
were a couple of different news agencies that did like
intern you know, while talking about what options we're going
to remain for people, that would bring up crisis pregnancy centers,
which are UM shady as hell as I'm sure we're
about to talk about. But yeah, so that's that's kind
of why we brought you and what we brought you
on initially to talk about. I wonder do you want
to kind of introduce folks to what those are, because

(01:39:38):
the gist of it is, if you like Google, how
do I like find out if I'm pregnant or like
you know, I'm pregnant and I need help, There's a
good chance old Google will take you to one of
these places, and they are, shall we say, not what
they seem to be? Yes, I think we can exactly
say that, um. And I am just going to say

(01:40:00):
in the most direct way I possibly could. A crisis
pregnancy center is essentially a fake medical facility that prays
on vulnerable people, specifically people who can become pregnant. So yeah,
you know, we can use the term fake medical clinic,
um I for the purpose just of using the most
common term crisis pregnancy center, I'm going to stick to

(01:40:21):
using that term. UM. But yes, there are a lot
of concerns about this, and I'm sure our friend Google
will pop them up for us really quick. UM. So,
crisis pregnancy centers usually have names like women's pregnancy center
or women's health center, something health center. Um and it's
a very misleading advertisement. So they are anti abortion facilities

(01:40:44):
that manipulate people into having a full term pregnancy. So
these places are usually religious oriented, They have a religious
agenda and it's not patient lad. So some of these
larger religious based organizations that fund these what we think
are smaller tiny clinics are agencies or organizations like care Net,

(01:41:06):
Heartbeat International, National Institute of Family and Life, Birthright International,
and RAMA International. So a lot of times you might
think you're going to the small, little tiny clinic or
maybe it's even like a community medical mobile unit, and
it turns out there backed by big money and bigger agencies.
So they typically will implant themselves in communities of color,

(01:41:30):
um near college campuses, and low income neighborhoods. So what
is that saying. That's saying that this is a woman's issue,
this is a trans issue, this is an l g
B t q I A issue, this is a bipoc issue,
Black Indigenous people of color, and it's simply just an
issue for everyone. Yeah, And it's so one of the

(01:41:51):
things that's kind of messy about these places is that
if you look at like investigations into how they work,
you'll run into a number of stories of women who
are like, Hey, I actually like always intended to go
through with my pregnancy. I just needed to like know
that number one, know that I was pregnant. I needed
to test or something. And these people advertised they would
provide that for free, or the advertise that they were
providing stuff like diapers, you know, basic kind of supplies,

(01:42:14):
formula for free, um. And some of them do, most
of them due to some extent, but nearly all of
them have some sort of like and this is outside
of kind of the abortion aspect, access of it, have
some sort of funked up hoops you have to jump
through in order to actually get access to any of
that stuff. Absolutely, yeah, I'm really glad that you brought up,
like the diaper point. I think that is a really

(01:42:36):
essential thing, because they don't not give out stuff, right,
but it's it's messier than they want to portray it as. Yeah, yeah, totally,
and and it's a form of manipulation, right, And I
think too, it's a form of manipulation too to deem
yourself a full functioning medical facility where they actually don't
provide those comprehensive services and sometimes you know, they might

(01:42:59):
even say the outside like HIV testing, s I v M,
STI testing, HIV testing, um, and they're simply not evidence
based practices. So what I mean by an evidence evidence
based practice is something like condom use. We know very
well at this day and age that condoms are essential

(01:43:21):
to prevent s t I S and HIV transmission. So
a lot of these clinics they might even say like,
condoms don't decrease your chances of s t I S.
They don't really matter. They're not really doing anything. And
that is a really big piece of information that we
need to know as the average person, because that means
we have a lot of young people going to these
clinics and having even their foundational sexual health education at

(01:43:46):
these facilities. So this is a really really important thing
to take note of. UM And I would say that
you know a lot of people even in my life,
that have gone to crisis pregnancy centers by accident. Um
are you know, being told that they can do STI testing,
HIV testing, and even birth control and then as soon
as you go there, you realize that's not what's happening.

(01:44:07):
Usually it's going to be a lot of pregnancy related
services like ultrasounds and pregnancy tests, which we know if
you're an actual clinic that's those aren't the only things
that someone would need for essential health care. But I
would say even more like going into the manipulation and um,
the gas lighting that they do within these facilities, which

(01:44:29):
in my eyes is medical violence. UM. They provide even
mandatory ultrasounds, make someone sit there to look at the ultrasound.
They make fearful videos of misleading information about what abortions are,
and sometimes even have someone who's not a medical provider
showing what an abortion is in their eyes, and the
video maybe of a baby that's whose limbs are being

(01:44:51):
ripped apart um. Even giving information like abortions can lead
to breast cancer or if you have abortion, you'll never
be able to have a child, and this is your
one and only opportunity um. And sometimes even going further,
you know they are sneaky and what they do, because
they might even have programs that will say parent program

(01:45:13):
UM or youth sexual health program and even with that
they're giving religious based agendas um. And they are telling
people misinformation about sexual health and even so might even
talk about very heterosexual sex marriage. All of the above
so there is a very specific agenda that is going

(01:45:36):
on here. Um. And we know too that a lot
of these agencies can be really sneaky with what they're
doing because they may even deny that they are a
crisis pregnancy center, and even further, if you go onto
their website, they might not even have any language that
they're religious based or that they are um, not providing

(01:45:57):
comprehensive services. So there are a lot of diff written
tactics that are you know, within the manipulate manipulative strategies
that they use. Yeah. One of the things I've heard
a lot about is like basically like not not literally
physically forcing but like terrorizing people into signing like fake

(01:46:21):
legal documents saying they won't get an abortion, which like
really like every description I've heard about that, it is
just like this is just terrorism. That's absolutely um. Yeah,
And I find that to be really interesting. I have
never heard of that happening. But just because I haven't

(01:46:41):
specifically heard about, does it not mean it's not happening. Um.
And I think that you know, there, they're not all
made the same, um, they all functioned differently. And I
think that's also what is really confusing about them because
they're not consistently all doing the same thing. There are
still other facility is that they might do STI testing,

(01:47:02):
they might do HIV testing, and so to hear that
is not shocking to me. Um. And the manipulative tactics
that they are using for people and yeah, I mean
hip book goes out the door. You know, any legal
backing goes out the door with these facilities because they
are not based on providing patient led services in the

(01:47:22):
first place. Maybe this is an ignorant, ignorant train of thought,
but if they're providing all of these like free ish
services or like whatever to these people that are desperate,
and um, it sounds like a lot of them are
like privately funded by these organizations, and the shadows like
what how do they benefit? Like where like what is
there other than like imposing religion and other people? But

(01:47:44):
like like financially and like I'm confused, where how they're
still able to function? Yes, they function very well and
without a problem. Um. And as I mentioned, there's you know,
five larger organizations that are funding a lot of these CPCs,

(01:48:06):
but they are also um this is to be noted
there on the CDC website, they are on the CDC
directory as places that provide essential services. So I think
that also goes to speak to the confusion around CPCs.

(01:48:29):
And I'm just gonna go out in the limb and
say I'm going to give the CDC benefit of the
doubt although they do not deserve that, and say that, um,
they themselves may not recognize what what these agencies are doing.
And so I think that's where the awareness around the

(01:48:50):
actual function of the ccs and how they even exist
in the first place needs to be shut down. And
awareness needs to be brought about these places. And and
we know that third of them are funded by their states,
so they are getting direct government money to be able
to function and then on top of that also functioning

(01:49:11):
with the backing of their larger organizations. Wow, are they
getting federal funding too? Like I have some vague memories
of like Bush administration programs that we're funding just right,
I mean, if I'm not mistaken, Trump pushed a bunch
of federal funds towards these facilities. Yes, yeah, I wonder,

(01:49:33):
Sorry ahead, I don't go ahead. I was just I
was wondering, like I wonder if there's a um like
one or two things you need to qualify as like
a what's what how did you put it on the website?
CBC uh um, like they offer like services, like maybe
it's like, oh, this place has an ultrasound. These are

(01:49:53):
like this is why this is on you know what
I mean? Like, I wonder if they just like pick
and choose the bare minimum of things to like qualify
to be UM considered among like people that offer like
full fledged care. But I don't know what it's all
scam Yeah, And I mean I think that also is
just a really UM. I like that you bring that

(01:50:13):
up because I think that would be a really ignorant
perspective from the CDC to think that a place that
gives a pregnancy test or an ultrasound right away is
not necessarily your average healthcare setting. UM. When someone is

(01:50:35):
going into an appointment, typically you know they're not getting
an ultrasound right away. Typically you're average person who might
think they're pregnant and is going into a medical facility,
is going to do a pregnancy test. Sure, but they're
not just gonna immediately the first twenty minutes you're there
do an ultrasound. UM. And especially knowing our health care

(01:50:56):
system and the United states. You know that might require
referrals and another facility to get that done, and you
know that depends on what your insurances and what you
can pay for and etcetera, etcetera. But I think it's
a really big red flag to just have a facility
that has pregnancy tests and ultrasounds. That to me is,

(01:51:20):
you know, if I see on a website that those
are the only two services that healthcare clinic is claiming
to provide, I'm running away and I'm not going there
because that's very odd. Well, it's it's very manipulative, because
it's it's one of those things. One of the ways
in which you can tell is something healthcare related shady
as fuck is does it take advantage of the fact

(01:51:43):
that very basic things that you need are extremely expensive um,
and like ultrasounds, pregnancy tests, this can all be like
STD tests, you know, can all be really really pricey um.
And it's just so like it's fucked up that this
is kind of how they're funning religious dollars towards taking
advantage of the fact that a lot of people, like

(01:52:04):
legitimately some people who use these facilities. I don't know
what else to tell them, because it's like, well, we
don't provide people with a lot of options in this
country everywhere, you know, for for some of these services. Yeah, totally.
And I do want to go into some of the
people doing the work and I want to really highlight

(01:52:26):
what they're doing. UM. So I want to give the
utmost credit to two people, UM who I do not
know personally but would definitely love to UM Dr Andreas
Warton Rubber and Dr Danielle Lambert. They're both associate professors
at the School of Public Health at University of Georgia,

(01:52:48):
and they're both co founders of the CPC Maps, which
originated in two thousand and eighteen. So yes, there's a
brilliant map where you can search these CPCs that are
close to you. UM. And in my eye is this
map is truly a piece of gold because I myself
have found ones that are in my area UM and
was very beneficial when I was working with clients myself

(01:53:10):
directly and would refer people to different services. So this
is a really great tool for healthcare professionals and social
service workers, et cetera to refer to UM. And I
can't even explain how grateful I am to know that
there's ongoing research about the distraught impact of these clinics
and the distraught impact they have on our health care
system and the ability to find an abortion provider. UM.

(01:53:33):
So again I hope that every service provider can find
these this map, UM and use this map and really
spread awareness around this. So. UM. What I want to
highlight and what these two doctors have found is that
just to give some more context, every single state has

(01:53:56):
multiple SPCs, multiple not just one to multiple there are
CPCs and throughout the United States, and that is obviously
a much larger number than the health departments in the
United States. And you know, as I mentioned, we know

(01:54:17):
the CBC directory utilizes CPCs on their website and again
thirteen states are funded or are funding CPCs UM. So
their advertisements are going far and wide. Um. And to
even go further, in the state of California, the California
Women's Law Center says that there are twenty more CPCs

(01:54:40):
then there are abortion clinics. So I think in this time, yeah, yeah,
we should be scared. That is really that's a really
concerning statistic, and especially looking at how we are going
to be and already are a haven state, we are
going to be a haven state for all the states

(01:55:01):
around US and for people throughout the United States. So
what is that saying when we are a haven state,
yet we are still competing with our local anti abortion
strategies ourselves, we are still putting up a fight as
a haven state, and I think that is so concerning. UM.
And even further, just to give some more statistics, we

(01:55:24):
know that of the clinics that CPCs that did not
offer SCI testing also will not refer out. We know
that only eight offer HIV testing and that did not
offer HIV testing also did not refer out. So just

(01:55:44):
to summarize those numbers for you, what that data is
telling me is that these clinics are not accounting for
the health of the pregnant person, nor are the accounting
for the health of the fetus if that pregnancy goes
full term. And yeah, I mean I have even you know,
more stats as you know your reproductive health nerd um
of one of my favorite research institutes called the gut

(01:56:06):
Mocker Institute, and they are phenomenal and have really great
data UM. And if you haven't checked out their website,
you definitely should. UM. But since we're on the bandwagon
of talking about religious based affiliations, we know that seventeen
percent of abortion patients are oh sorry, um okay um.

(01:56:30):
Seventeen percent of abortion patients identified themselves as mainline Protestant,
as evangelical Protestant, and percent is Catholic. Thirty eight percent
have no religious affiliation, and the remaining eight percent reported
a different religious affiliation. So let's summarize that religiously affiliated

(01:56:51):
people are still seeking abortions too. Would you look at
that ignorance is so bliss. We know that abortions are
affecting people who are living in poverty and who are
low income. So we know se of people that are
seeking abortions are either living in poverty or our low
income UM. And fortunately, you know, throughout the past, we

(01:57:15):
know that Medicaid has been a really big funder of
abortion care UM, and especially we can say that in
California too, UM, that about of abortion patients are using Medicaid,
and that's throughout fifteen different states. So I imagine in
this time, right now too, that number is probably going

(01:57:38):
to decrease. UM. So again, talking about a haven state
that has these resources, we are probably going to be
mixing up how that looks UM. And knowing that fifty
three percent of abortion patients pay out of pocket for
their procedures is already a very concerning statistics. And so

(01:58:01):
we are seeing how in our time right now, we
have to be looking at different resources for people. We
have to put on our activist hats, we have to
be supporting our community, and we have to be supporting
abortion funds because already fifty three percent of abortions are
paid out of pocket. Um. And just to to summarize one,

(01:58:23):
more point eight percent of people who are using abortion
services are going to be using those within the first
twelve weeks. So um, we are needing to see a
lot of activism around abortion pill distribution and abortion pill
education and what that looks like. No, the to like

(01:58:47):
piggyback off of what Robert was mentioning earlier about how
it just feels like they're taking advantage of the fact that,
like things cost so much money. And I feel like,
if you this work is so important because I don't
think a lot of people know what they're getting into.
If they're like, because we don't have a great education
system in general, let alone about like reproductive health or
like what happens when you get pregnant. So if you're

(01:59:09):
a young person or mean any age and you are
desperate or you're feeling shame, you don't have support from
your community or something, and you see an institution that's
like free ultrasound or like whatever, it's like they're praying
on this desperation. And I think one of the only
things you can do to combat that is like try
to educate people as much as possible that like, I

(01:59:31):
don't know, people are as um they don't have the
good will and good faith that they present to be
to have and I guess it just like ultimately you
have to be distrusting of people. And maybe that's sad,
but it's the truth. Yeah, definitely, And I will say
I feel like I saw that as a service provider.

(01:59:52):
Um So, as I mentioned, I worked in homeless services,
specifically with youth homeless services, and you see that so much.
You see how there is you know, medical oppression for
people of color. There is medical manipulation and violence for
so many people in vulnerable situations. And as someone that

(02:00:14):
has accompanied many people to abortions and births, I have
observed that myself and I have seen how so more
people than not are going to experience some type of
medical manipulation, and especially if you are living in poverty,
especially if you're a person of color, especially if you're

(02:00:36):
lgbt q i A. This this issue does not just stop,
you know, with CPCs. If we take out all the CPCs,
we also have to address so much of the institutional
institutionalized racism and all the things that exist around reproductive
health UM, you know, starting at how to get contraceptives too,

(02:00:58):
when can you have children and how can you be
a parent, and that never ends throughout the cycle, you know,
and that parents even after they have babies, even if
they are a person of color, even if they are
l g B t q A, you know, they are
still told how, when, where they're going to parent UM.
And there's so much control over that rhetoric for people.

(02:01:20):
So you know, I mean that even goes back to
me thinking about the sterilization trials that happened against USC
and the seventies and how women were forcibly sterilized, and
you know that has nothing to do with CPCs. But
instead we're seeing that institutions are finding this control and

(02:01:40):
having these agendas, and it is not serving our society.
It is not serving our health and instead it is
creating more trauma in our communities and it's it's crisis.
Pregnancy centers are just one of many layers of medical
oppression that we are witnessing in today's world. As a

(02:02:01):
person who was working in homeless services, I was program
planning for a lot of the resources that we were
able to provide access to for my clients. So all
of my clients at that time when I was running
the Pregnant Parenting program at a nonprofit, they were either
pregnant and or parenting while also experiencing their housing insecurities UM,

(02:02:27):
so I strived to find what the proper resources were
for them to support them in every trauma informed way
I possibly could, and that were youth friendly. So there
was a local agency that was very very close to
where I worked UM and their services always kind of

(02:02:47):
felt like limited to me. So I met with them
specifically to enquire because they were always trying to find
some type of partnership with us and would knock on
our door or call me. So I finally was able
to get of them some of my time UM and
so their services always felt limited and non comprehensive, and

(02:03:09):
I think that is the biggest kind of like takeaway UM.
They always gave me really weird reasoning why they didn't
provide birth control or STI testing, and based on their answer,
as I mentioned, I just did not allow the partnership
to thrive. So when I did more research, I actually
confirmed from another service provider that there from another agency

(02:03:31):
that they were indeed a CPC before I could spread
the word. They also already had several partnerships with other
homeless service providers, so they wiggled their way in UM.
And these other homeless service providers were also working with
young vulnerable clients. So one day I was actually invited
by another agency to come to this presentation where I

(02:03:54):
didn't realize happened to be the CPC. UM. The CPC
was presenting at this organization and it was one of
their outreach workers explaining what their services were. So I
took it upon myself to make sure that I sat
in that meeting and I asked questions in the room

(02:04:16):
with the other service providers. I think they're about thirty
other service providers that were present, and I asked out loud,
why doesn't your clinic provide birth control? And the woman
from the CPC who was the outreach worker said, we
can't give paps mirrors, so we're unable to provide birth control.
If you know anything side note if you know, yeah,

(02:04:39):
I already see the questioning, which I'm glad I received
that reaction, because that is the exact reaction audience, those
of us with yours, all of our heads tilted, squinting.
U exactly explain how that math doesn't work? Yeah, exactly.

(02:05:06):
Side note for all the listeners, if you know anything
about health care, you know that a PAPS is not
associated with being able to be prescribed birth control. So
as someone that has background in healthcare, has a master's
in public health, worked as a due lah. I continue
to push back during the presentation, and it was very

(02:05:27):
very clear that I was onto something. Um. So this
woman again, she would always try to come around, give
me pamphlets, try to have us partner and say she
really want to work with us in our youth. Um.
She stopped after that presentation. I can tell you that.
But anyway, so I keep going. I reach out to
a the person who organized that presentation for the CPC
outreach person to attend and speak at. So I was like,

(02:05:49):
I need to get to the bottom of this, and
I need to spread this word UM and tell people, Hey,
you're getting people from CPCs to come and speak to
you to advertise your services is UM. So I see
a seed a lot of the other service providers, and
I expressed my genuine concerns the lack of evidence based

(02:06:10):
comprehensive care they provided. But unfortunately, the person who I
emailed said, clients need to make sure those decisions are
their own, so they can decide if they want to
go or if they don't want to go. We can't
force them to say yes or no to go to
a health care facility. So I responded by asking, but
what if you thought you were seeing a doctor for
your health care needs and then it turns out the

(02:06:32):
health care provider is providing misinformation and might not even
be a healthcare provider. UM. I never got a response
from them, but I still continue to make sure that
I was reaching out to everyone at that meeting and
just raising awareness behind it UM. And then I wanted
to take it to UM. I wanted to take it
a notch up, so I called both of this. Both
of the locations of the CPC. One is located in Westwood,

(02:06:54):
side note next to u c l A. The other
one was in South l A side note, community of color.
Both of my calls led me to the person on
the phone telling me that they don't know where to
send me for an abortion and that they didn't know
what what planned parenthood was, what they did, or where
they relocated when I specifically asked. So they were obviously

(02:07:15):
circumventing the ability to even talk about abortions and what
it was um and that was all the concern that
I genuinely needed. So in my present day, I'm still
concerned with these clinics, this specific clinic that is local
to me. I recently found out that in my present
day work, there are currently three treatment centers that are

(02:07:39):
using this crisis pregnancy center as a resource. So hopefully
that means more to come because I will be working
on this and in this scenario, what I am doing
as an activist and as a person who cares for
my community is I will be educating these treatment centers
about what crisis pregnancy centers are and how they can
avoid them and what comprehensive services actually look like. Have

(02:08:01):
there been more sort of widespread like organizations who are
working too like a let people know what they are
and then be also trying to get them like not
to be funded. Absolutely, there are and we need to
shout them out. UM. There are. There is an abortion

(02:08:23):
fund UM in California called Access. They are wonderful UM.
They provide abortion advocacy and awareness and education and they
also provide direct services UM and fund different They have
fund abortions in different capacities, so they might be funding

(02:08:45):
the abortion services, the lodging, the transportation, and even a doula.
And they partner with a lot of other agencies that
are doing the work. The agency is called Reproductive Transparency
Now and they are a ship cargo based nonprofit. They
provide a lot of information, data, awareness research UM to

(02:09:10):
raise awareness around what CPCs are and why we should
be avoiding them. And I think I can say that
I have the same goal as them in my personal life,
but to ensure that they do not exist and are
all shut down. UM. So they are wonderful. I would
highly suggest looking into Reproductive Transparency Now and also Active

(02:09:31):
Sorry Access Reproductive Justice UM who are doing a lot
of really great work. And then I also do want
to squeeze in other resources for people as well. Yeah, UM.
And you know, as I mentioned first and foremost, I
think the number one thing we need to know is

(02:09:52):
that crisis pregnancy center should not exist in any capacity. UM.
But if you are a person who's providing resource, is
who is working with clients, who works in healthcare treatment centers,
wouldever it be, please utilize Crisis Pregnancy Center map dot com. Again,

(02:10:12):
this is the the website that was created by two
associate professors at University of Georgia, and I want to
make sure that this spreads far and wide, UM, because
it will be the matter of providing referrals and circumventing
CPCs UM. And I want to acknowledge that a lot
of my data from this, from the information that I've

(02:10:35):
been speaking on, is from the Crisis Pregnancy Center Map
dot com UM, and from Reproductive Transparency as well. UM.
So first and foremost that map is a necessity. UM.
Another resource that I would like to share to be

(02:10:56):
able to find your state's abortion fund is abortion Funds
dot org and you can search state by state, so
you know, I'm in California, so that's going to be access. Again,
an organization that is an abortion fund, but they do
more than than fund abortions. UM. I also really encourage

(02:11:18):
people to find their local evidence based du lahs midwives
women's health practitioners near them. And I know that there's
a lot of fear existing right now due to the
inappropriate politicians that are making disgusting decisions, but know that
abortion pills can be access and there are people that
can help guide you through. UM. So I would say

(02:11:42):
making sure that we are accessing the resources on a
website called plan c pill dot com. It's a great
resource where you can find where to purchase abortion pills
and where to seek medical and legal support as well.
So if you have a question about how to take
medical abortion pills, or you need to understand the legality

(02:12:05):
of your state and the area near you, you can
you can look on this website UM as a resource. UM.
I just also want to emphasize like what community care
looks like right now. UM. If you're a person who
can get pregnant, this is truly a time to seek
preventative care. And I know that that's a loaded can

(02:12:26):
of worms for a lot of people. So I just
I really want to plug this in. If you would
like to learn about pregnancy prevention, you can take a
look at bedsider dot org to assess your needs. I
would highly recommend pairing that with talking to a provider
who understands your lifestyle and can support you with finding
one that works best for you, because every single contraceptive
is going to look a little different. If you're a

(02:12:48):
person who does not like birth control, I want you
to know to please still seek preventative methods UM, whether
that's a barrier method or whether that's more so of
a holistic good like fertility awareness method. I encourage you
to still speak to someone you can trust to ensure
you're using that method correctly. And again there are duelas
and midwives that can help guide you in the right

(02:13:10):
direction for holistic practices UM. And to continue on to
my community UH, my community kind of recognition. I hope
that this is also time where if it's feasible for
you too, if you can't yourself, find UM friends and

(02:13:30):
family that you trust and people around you UM to
either receive yourself or to get it from other people.
Have pregnancy tests around you, and make sure that if
you feel like you might be pregnant UM, whether you
are using an actual method or if you're not using
a method, currently, make sure you very least have pregnancy
tests around you, UM, so that you know you can

(02:13:53):
detect early on if you are pregnant. UM. Normalize buying
your friends pregnancy tests for their birthdays. I have. We
just have to normalize that as a community, and normalize
buying abortion pills in case someone you know might need
them in the future, or it might be someone that
you don't know who could use them. UM. And to
have that accessible if that is feasible for you financially. Um.

(02:14:17):
And then yeah, I think just to summarize, like, this
is truly a time for community support and when the
government doesn't support us, we we need to figure out
unfortunately how and um, if you got the ability, go
get uh, go get go get snipped. Uh. You know

(02:14:39):
there's there's options out there. UM options. Yeah. I provide vasectomies.
By the way, if you can just find me in
my house. UM, I'm not good at it yet, but people,
I'm gonna not I'm gonna figure it out. I'm gonna
figure it out. That room is for well. I got
one of those. I got one of those sharp penning wheels,

(02:15:00):
and my butter knives are pretty fucking they got a
good edge. They got edge these days. It's genuinely incredibly disappointment.
Disappointed you're not using the machete for this. This is
this feels like a portrayal. Well, there's other reproductive healthcare
I used the machete for, but that that that does
have to do with crisis pregnancy centers action. Well, I'll

(02:15:21):
have a bunch of referrals for you then, I know,
or to send them. That that kind of leans into
another topic I'm covering today. Unfortunately. Um well, thank you
so much for coming on and for talking to us.
This has been very enlightening. Um I wish uh it

(02:15:42):
wasn't such a bleak subject. But people need to know
the fox going on. People needed to know this a
lot earlier. But you know, I mean broadly speaking, the
thing I keep coming back to in this whole fight
is the frustration of like the rest of us, like
life is hard enough. There's so much going on. People
are like busy trying to trying to get by, trying

(02:16:03):
to do their lives, trying to like find pieces of
happiness in the world. And there's this fucking group of
the worst people in the country that have just made
this made fucking access to reproductive healthcare up for everyone
the focus of their entire life for thirty years, and
unfortunately now we have to like do that make the

(02:16:26):
opposite the focus of our lives because we kind of
just not all of us obviously, like you've been in
this fight for a while, but most of us kind
of we're not paying as much attention as needed to
be paid. Um, like most people in the I'm not
trying to throw blame on folks, but like, clearly the
majority of people in the country who support access to

(02:16:46):
reproductive healthcare weren't paying enough attention, you know, Like that's
the that's the only way to frame it totally. And
it's almost as if we are picking up the mess
that others are are creating. Um yeah. And you know,
after experiencing COVID as a society, everyone's a public health
professional now and a doctor. Um, so it's it's clearly, yeah,

(02:17:12):
I'm sending referrals to you. Um yeah. And people have
a lot of things to say. And with that being said,
I'm really glad that that these are conversations being had.
I'm glad that friends around me now who I have
never known to talk about reproductive health are going there
and talking about it and also opening the door up

(02:17:34):
for you know, people like me to talk about evidence
based practices and what the reality is and and who's
doing the work, and um, everything that that focuses around
reproductive health. So I I appreciate this conversation. I appreciate
that there are podcasts discussing this information. It's necessary and

(02:17:57):
these issues are not going anywhere, and you know, we're
going a little backwards. So I really appreciate your time
on this. Yeah, thank you for coming on the show.
And um, all right, everybody, that's the fucking episode, So
do something else. Oh all right, well go started. I

(02:18:33):
like it. These intros are getting shorter free every time.
You know, we've bended onto one syllable, so there's not
much we can go fee there. You know what, an
honest and honest man only needs one syllable, sometimes less,
sometimes half a syllable. We'll eventually get this down to
just grunts. That's really what I'm moving towards is an
entirely shouldn't we be moving towards? Like telepathy? Yeah, telepathy?

(02:18:55):
We don't even record a podcast where we just like
put up trans with the information constantaneously, just a blank
audio file that says, now think about farming. And I'm
gonna say that that sounds very um, that sounds very
sci fi. And that's my way of doing a slick
segue here, because today we will be talking and I'm

(02:19:18):
very excited to talk about this Um. She's one of
my favorite authors. Um. You know, I really enjoyed discussing
the idea is present in Huxley's work, but this one
has a special place in my heart. Today we'll be
taking a look at Octavia Butler's parable of the sewer
and parable of the talents, and the idea is present within. Yes,

(02:19:44):
back at you again with another podcast banger. But first
of all, UM, Hi, I'm Andrew Um sometimes known as
St Andrew. I'm kind of trying to rebrand as something else,
still figuring that out, um, and you can find me
on YouTube at st Andrewism. But this episode is not

(02:20:08):
about me and my branding. This episode has about Octavia Butler,
born and growing up in segregationary America. She became an
award winning sci fi wathor um with a lot of
influences and a lot of themes and ideas being covered

(02:20:29):
in her work. Considering the very white male dominated scene
that is sci fi. The fact that she was able
to not only break into it, but also presents some
things that I haven't been explored before, with angles that
haven't really been explored before. UM really has touched a

(02:20:50):
lot of people. She was somewhat after a futurist, but
she was also very much UM. A lot of her
stories really did UM. A lot of people have a
lot of different backgrounds and and and histories, and she
always managed to work aspects of herself into her main characters. UM.

(02:21:11):
She was a big critic of hierarchies, which really draws
me to her and UM. She also relatively has at
times struggled with writer's block and depression. She wrote over
two dozen essays, speeches, short stories, and novels and her
time on this earth, but unfortunately she had a stroke

(02:21:33):
and died in two thousand six. One of the or
other two of the books that have had the most
of whos that have had the most impact on me,
And of course I haven't read her entire bibliography yet,
but I hope to get to it. UM is part
of the sewer right and you know, I think a

(02:21:54):
lot of people have heard about it A gained a
lot more relevance. Um after you know, as kind of patashi,
we continue to accelerate as you know, we drew closer
to the year that the book is setting, and regard
to the second book, as we had you know, Trump
come into office. Um. And I'll get into why that's

(02:22:18):
relevant in a bit. In the first book, just to
give a brief synopsis, global climate change and economic crisis
has let a whole set of social crisis and chaos
in the early twenties. Um. The book is set in California,
and they are struggling with pervasive water shortages and masses

(02:22:40):
of poor people will do basically anything to live to
see another day. Everybody is struggling. So basically today in
this setting, fifteen year old Lauren Lamina lives inside a
gated community with her preacher father, family and neighbors, sheltered
somewhat from the surrounding chios. However, when we get gates

(02:23:04):
the community, now we think of you know, like really
rich people, but in this case, gated community is just
like a regular community that had to put up a
bunch of walls to prevent like pyramede acts from like real. Yeah,
it's like it's a suburb that used to be like
a well off suburb, but as things got worse, it

(02:23:26):
just turned into people hiding behind their walls because they
were scared of poor folks, right Like it's there's an
element of it that almost reads like a slasher movie
in the opening of the book, which is one of
the things that's really compelling about it. Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah,
they really Um. She really gets you invested in the setting,
in the character early on. And part of what really

(02:23:50):
gets you invested in Lauren as a protagonist is the
fact that she suffers from a unique vulnerability or strength
depending on how you look at it, um oftentimes vulnerability,
and that is hyper empathy syndrome, which is basically that
she's able to feel others emotions, others pains. So when

(02:24:13):
others are very very sad, she feels very very sad.
When others are in pain, she feels that same excruciating
pain um and so on and so forth, And so
she has to find sort of navigate this chaosk Wood
while dealing with this um, with this um disorder that

(02:24:35):
she's struggling with. At the same time, though, she's also
navigating faith and the ideal of faith and philosophy because
her father is like a preacher, and he's the preacher
of their little gated community, and so she has grown
up in the church, but she also has found issues

(02:24:56):
in um, the religion that she grew up in places
where she thinks it is sort of lead people a street.
And that's kind of also what is drawn me to
Lauren as a character, because I too, you know, have
had to negotiate and navigate that whole religious realm. And

(02:25:16):
so that's basically the setting she's in this community. Um,
it's chaos on the outside. She's navigating her higher empathy syndrome,
and she's also dealing with the ideas of religion and
change and so and so forth. So as she's there,
UM sort of thinking internally, she's keeping this juno and
she's developing this new system of thought which he calls

(02:25:40):
earth Seed, and we're gonna get into eoth Seed. But
it basically shapes uh the decisions that she makes and
the outcome of both books and as well as how
they progress throughout. The second book places her in I'm

(02:26:01):
really trying not to spoil, which is difficult to do
because the second book, Lea is directly after the first book,
and so and so forth. But I'll try to speak
in broad brushes because I really think people should go
and read it as blind as possible, um Lauren. Of course,
eventually we will get into spoilers, by the way, so

(02:26:22):
I'll try to let folks know when we get into that.
But in the second book, UM Lauren is working on
a community UM founded on her faith earth Seed, and
they begin to face persecution. I'll see, after the election
of this ultra conservative president who vows to quote make

(02:26:45):
America great again, being you know, a young black woman
in a minority religious faction in the United States of America. UM,
her colony becomes a target of President Jarrett's reign of terror. UM.
And at the same time, Laurence future daughter is navigating

(02:27:11):
the discovery of the mother that she didn't knew, that
she didn't know through the journals that her mother kept
through the years. And I think I'll leave it at that.
There are a lot of themes that you know, Butler
covers in these texts, UM, and in fact, I've seen

(02:27:33):
them described as but Lerian, which I would agree with,
because she covers them in other books of Who's as
well in different ways. UM. She talks about poverty and
slavery and freedom, just what perseverance. She navigates the this
idea of community and what community means. What how community
is both a balance of inclusion and exclusion at the

(02:27:57):
same time, and also the whole cycle of creation, destruction,
and rebirth that really defines human history right now, well,
in that books, in the setting of that book, Um,

(02:28:18):
slavery has made a comeback more than it already has.
You know, you have these extreme forms of death slavery
and marital slavery and probably even plantation slavery. UM. I
believe plantation slavery is mentioned in the second book, UM.
And of course the slavery is inflicted upon the poor,

(02:28:39):
particular a lot of company town style slavery right where
people are like bonded, bound to a specific location because
of their employer who protects them in this increasingly dangerous,
banded filled world exactly. And in this world, you know,
race remains a factor. Even though these books are written

(02:29:00):
in the eighties and nineties, I believe parabolos over ise
and right again, like He's got or Butler has a
character using the same phrase Trump would when the President say,
on um, what is it twenty four years before the

(02:29:23):
start of his campaign. Um hard to overstate the degree
to which she was ahead of the curve on a
lot of things, because I mean, to be fair, she
knew America. Oh yeah, you know, she grew up in segregation.
You're America. She had to deal with her mother was
a domestic liberal, and so she had to go in

(02:29:46):
with her mother in these rich white families places through
the back door. Um. And you know, obviously that would
have shaped how she saw herself and herself in relation
to the wider world through to America as an idea.
And so I think that as she's writing of this

(02:30:10):
you know, sort of horrific future, she's drawing a lot
from the horrific past, or rather America's horrific past, of
which her history is apart. So Lauren, who is in
some ways Octavia but herself inside Um, spends a lot

(02:30:31):
of time in the book, in both books, allying with
people who are also minorities, who come from mixed backgrounds,
people who tend to be overlooked by the dominant Christian
religious right white UM order. Because I believe she finds

(02:30:54):
some sense of safety and strength in people who have
been so line. Slavery also ends up affecting Lawrence community
too um in many ways that I don't want to spoil.
But despite it all, the theme of perseverance is really

(02:31:15):
what carries the story alone. Lauren ultimately is the archetype
of the persevera. You know, she preaches a sermon and
the importance of perseverance. She tries to get others to
see the importance of hard work, and she sticks to
her coals no matter what happens, and a lot happens

(02:31:37):
that would quite honestly discourage a lot of people, to
put it lightly, and yet she perseveres. And so let's
tie that in as well to American history. Particularly in
the first book, she ends up having to make a
journey north um to northern California, and throughout that journey,

(02:32:01):
you know, she meets with other people and interacts with
the people, She makes allies and avoids enemies, and you
can honestly draw some parallels to the underground real road.
Of course, it's not an exact one to one, but
in the sense of having to work with people along
the way to progress out of a terrible situation, a

(02:32:25):
hellish situation for the Hoop, not the guarantee, but the
hope of some form of salvation when you get to
the end of the journey. She doesn't do it alone.
She does it with others Um, and that's kind of
what keeps her hope alive. But it's not just externals.
She has a lot of intrinsic motivation to persevere, which

(02:32:47):
is driven by her philosophy. I mean, I think one
of the things, because there's there's a lot of meaning
and why she picks the parable of the sower in
the parable of the talents for and it's it's pretty
obvious and necessary xt of the books. It's she's not
like hiding it under layers or anything. But one of
the things that in particular the second book deals with Um,
I mean, in the first book to do a degree

(02:33:09):
is kind of the the pointlessness of responding to dystopian
change in society by just like hunkering down in a
bunker and trying to hide from it and protect your family.
Like one of the reoccurring themes is the degree to
which that doesn't work. And one of the things that's
really interesting about this is a dystopian novel. Um. This

(02:33:31):
is a novel that is both of these novels are
kind of imagining the collapse of a lot of aspects
of American society, but it is not. At no point
does the United States really collapse in these books, and
and even like as much as authoritarianism is present, at
no point is the government completely taken over and completely
under the control of like a unified fascist regime or anything.

(02:33:54):
Elections are still happen in company. Elections exist, but you
said have to pay them to you know, to you
and and the the like Christian death squad type things
that are roaming around are distinctly non state actors. They
have backing to as an extent from the state. They're
not really opposed by it. But it's it's it's again.

(02:34:17):
It's this thing that we we are actually dealing with
where collapse doesn't look like okay, everything's fallen apart, and
now it's whoever's got the strongest group of buddies, who
can who can you know, do their best in the
waste land. It's like no, no, no. It is about
groups of people trying to navigate in an increasingly dysfunctional state.
And the only way to actually survive that is um

(02:34:41):
survivals complicated, and it's never as simple as just like
picking a good farm to hide on. You know that
that's that's not going to work out for exactly. I
just want to point out as well, that's as just
functional as things. People are still going to work, not
just the people who you know in company talents or
in debt bondage, but even Lawrence fathers. You know, he
takes his bike every day and rides out into the

(02:35:03):
chaos to go and work for a weege to come
back and to try to support his family. And of
course in this kid community we see that they attempts
to stay gated. You know, it's also in a futile
like the rich have their high security communities and be
able to escape in helicopters when anything happens, but they

(02:35:25):
have no security even in this illusion of security, and
that hundering down strategy they were taken wasn't working. In
the first half of the book really shows why. Yeah,
it's um, it's it's a It's a book about collapse
by somebody who's uh who, who grew up in a

(02:35:51):
situation where her her childhood had a lot of elements
of the collapse that many particularly like many folks are
concerned about now, Like that's what she grew up in
was there's no there's no protection. Violence can come from
all sides and it's random, um, and you have no

(02:36:11):
there are no guarantees in this like world that you've
come into. Which is this thing that like people are
freaking out about now as we encounter kind of aspects
of the world order that we had grown up with
that we feel like are falling apart. And I think
the thing that's so compelling about Butler is her books
kind of are coming from the perspective of someone for

(02:36:32):
whom that order and that world were never real. Yeah. Yeah,
And that's why her contributions to sci fi is so valuable,
you know, because all of these sci fi writes us
it's just like regular privileged white Kays and you know,
and and they just come with that experience. And it
isn't often um repeated critique of sci fi. Um you

(02:36:54):
see didn't tweets themself sometimes, where like a lot of
it is just like because they are like alien really
did sci Fi? It's like, whoa, what if the things
that white people did other people happen to white people?
You know, Like this whole idea that these alien invasion.
UM fears and alienvasion stories are just like what if

(02:37:15):
clualism but too white people to rich countries, you know,
mm hm. Another part of the reason that the attempt
to hunker down and stuff and basically exclude others from
their community failed is because, and Lauren rights this in

(02:37:37):
her diary, exclusion breeds resentment among the excluded. So even
though Lawrence neighborhood, while you know, gated and wall and stuff,
was not particularly rich, just the mare fact that they
had those walls up basically signaled to the outside world
that they had something to hid, some sort of resources

(02:38:02):
they wanted to safeguard, you know, the only thing they
had to safeguard with themselves. Because a lot of the
members the community were you know, unemployed and extremely poor,
that alone sort of symbolized, uh, sort of sort of
a beacon UM drawing people to eventually UM attack. And

(02:38:25):
that's a slight spoiler, but yeah, and you know, despite
the problems that exclusion and are causing UM, Lauren as
she realizes that her community could not handle that approach.
Even then as she's progressing your author and stuff, and

(02:38:46):
she's to beating with herself, you know, who to bring
into her fold exclusion and inclusion. They play a role.
You know, Um, she has to find form bonds and
you know, stay safe. But at the same time, the
bonds that she forms could put her in danjil if

(02:39:09):
she's betrayed, or if the people that she invests in
end up being harmed in some way, because the harm
that they experience will ultimately affect her as well. So,
as Lauren is making her way up north, she is

(02:39:30):
continuing to wrestle with this idea of inclusion and exclusion
because as she's progressing north in hopes of you know,
building a community of some kind, creating, joining, forming community
or some kind, she's also forming and establishing her religion.
Like I mentioned before, it played a major role in

(02:39:53):
the community she came from, and in fact, novel points
so that one of the reasons people are attracted you know,
religion to Christianity in this chaotic time and in general,
really it's because it provides hope and hope in the
form of an afterlife, and hope is what people really

(02:40:13):
really need in these hellish twenties that they are dealing with.
The Lauren comes to realize that the hope and hope
and the afterlife ultimately isn't enough for the people that
have invested so much into it. Um, one of the
people in the community, UM ends up despite being a

(02:40:39):
staunch believer that UM trigger warning by the way for suicide. UM,
despite being a strong believer that you know, suicide is
a sin and I was sending straight to hell. She
is so lost hope and could no longer trust in

(02:41:00):
her has been doing with so much pain that she
ends up taking her own life. And she takes her
own life, And as Lauren remarks, she takes her own
life knowing Um, or at least believing the pain hereafter,
and yet she finds it more of a reprieve than
the pain she was experiencing here now. And so as

(02:41:26):
Lauren is witnessing these things happening around her, Um is
dealing with you know, loss and her baptism and her
father's commitment to the church. She is continuing to develop
the idea of earth Seed, and she begins to contrast

(02:41:48):
earth Seed from christian with Christianity UM, and particularly in
the sense of how the two religions address hope and change.
In Christianity, you know, they have the hope UM of
the afterlife against this brutal life, life now a life,

(02:42:09):
whereas earth Seed simply presents the central principle, God is changed.
That's the first principle of earth Seed. Second is that
shape God. So first you have to recognize and accept
that change is inevitable, often destructive, but you could also
recognize your other poet to shape it um. And so

(02:42:31):
from that comes the third principle, which is to to
um pursue the destiny, the destiny being the establishment of
humanity and other worlds. And to be quite honest, I

(02:42:56):
am as this is one aspect of the philosophy would
see that I think I diverge from Um Laura and
of course has a lot of focus on the heavens
as in the cosmic heavens and scattering seed, which is,
you know, humanity across you know, all these different planets,

(02:43:20):
establishing ourselves in different worlds. But I feel as though
the destiny is in a way once the destruction. I
think it's it's a misplaced um, a misplaced who I guess.
I mean, there's that's kind of one of the points

(02:43:42):
of the book, right, because there's especially in the second book,
there's a lot from the perspective of her daughter. That
kind of shows how as as much her philosophy is
a really understandable and in some ways admirable adaptation to
the completely fucked up time she would is born into.
It's also in the same way that a lot of

(02:44:04):
other people's philosophies become, you know, and that her parents
and stuff are earlier. In the first book, it's a
way for her to kind of justify not paying attention
to the people in her life and not not taking
proper care of them because she's got this thing that's
bigger than them. She works, and you really by the

(02:44:24):
by the end of the second book, you really have
to sort of contend with the fact that you know,
you sort after grapple with how things with her daughter
would handle India. I guess I'll leave it at that. Um. Yeah,
that's part of it. I mean, she's so dedicated to

(02:44:46):
this cause, so this new religion of whose um and
you know she's recruiting people into it. You know, she's
selling people least this whoop. You know that following its
believe in a destiny. Eventually, you know, space is going
to become the real life heaven. We could actually get
out there. Can you start for ourselves for ourselves, and
that's part of it as well. Part of the idea

(02:45:08):
of the Destiny is, you know, a fresh start for humanity,
a sort of a maturation of humanity, this idea that
you know, once humanity establishes itself in other woods, that
it would have grown up as a species. Yeah, and
it's it's one of the things that I really respect

(02:45:31):
about these books that I think a lesser writer wouldn't
have been able to pull off, is that the degree,
without beating you in the head with it, you see
her as first failed by the philosophies and ideologies of
her parents generation and by the systems that people had

(02:45:53):
gotten stuck in. She's very much a character who grows
up in a world where all the adults are stuck
um and since like a system that has become a
death cult, and she has to figure out a way
out of it. What she comes to believe in so
much that in her own way, she becomes stuck in
that new thing, and it renders her unable to see

(02:46:14):
certain things that are important. And the book never portrays
her as completely right or completely wrong, because that's just
not how civilization works. Things just change over time, and
you know, the the ideology that her parents and the
adults are all stuck in in the beginning of the
book is an ideology that worked to a degree at

(02:46:36):
some point in the past. Um, which is just it
it's it's It does a really good job of showing
a number of things, which is kind of what it's
like to be a kid realizing that the adults have
fucked you, what it's like to become radicalized, um, and
realize that the world doesn't have to be the way
that it is, and what it's like to let that

(02:46:57):
radicalization lead you somewhere to where you miss important things,
Like there's so much going on in the evolution of
what the characters believe in this book that is is
just masterful from a storytelling standpoint. Yeah, I mean, the
second book really does a good job showing her sort
of blindness as well when it comes to things going on,

(02:47:20):
because what ends up happening one of the worst incidents
in that second book is something that's of course not
a victim blame, but it is something they could have
prepared for a bit more, a lot more. Actually, Yeah,

(02:47:44):
it's it's They're good books. There are books that you
will if you're like me, you will start reading them
and you will get really into the first book, and
then you'll take a ten minute break to like check
the news, and something will send you into a panic spiral,
and you'll read the new two books getting increasingly depressed.
It's good next book because the third book never released. Yeah,

(02:48:07):
she never quite got to make it. Yeah, And I'll
get into that as well in a bit in how
it ties into the destiny right, but just a real
three You know, who is principle? God has changed. God
is not a person. It doesn't love or hate or
watch over us or no us. It just is second
principle shape God. God is maalable. God is power, infinite, irresistible, inexorable, indifferent,

(02:48:32):
and yet God is pliable. Tricks to teacher chiosk Clay
and truly emphasizes the change is neither good nor bad,
but it is potential. And we could and we have
a choice to either be a victim of change, the
victim of God, or we can become a partner of God,

(02:48:53):
or we can become a shape of God, or we
could just stay as God's plaything as changes prey. It's unavoidable,
but our actions can shape its direction. And speed, and
the end change prevails. And there's a comfort in that

(02:49:16):
because once we can understand that you can return that efforts,
the inevitability of change can be what thrust us forward.
And I think, um, I think people who are invested
in in activism, in organizing and just revolutionary work, I

(02:49:41):
think their aspects of the see that I think would
be very motivating, very impactful, very energizing because despite you know,
how circumstances play out, Um, there's a recognition that we
are never entirely disempowered, you know. And so like just

(02:50:03):
the last point I want to get into about the destiny,
I think that's what it would make me if I
were to be in this world. I think that's where
I would diverge from the earthtied orthodoxy, because I mean,
Lauren talks about how, you know, history is just this

(02:50:24):
repetitive thing. We have all these wars and kill a
bunch of people and impoverish others and spread disease and hunger,
and the whole thing is just because that's how it's
always been, just being. We have to accept that we
can choose to do more, make something more of ourselves,
and to who making something more of ourselves is establishing

(02:50:46):
ourselves another planet. So if she is earteed Orthodoxy, I
suppose I'm an earth Seed Protestant. I think you see
Martin Luther nailing your thesis to I don't know the
door of her house in Seattle exactly. I would be
a reform of the of the destiny in the sense

(02:51:06):
that I see the destiny could be creating a heaven
here on Earth, like rather than pursuing it cosmic heaven.
I don't think it's even something that Lauren, at least
I don't recall Lauran ever grappling with the possibility, because
she really is fixated on this cosmic um idea. I
do think she grabbed the possibility that humanity can mature

(02:51:29):
quote quote here on Earth. You know. Um. She doesn't
really draw munch attention or has ent much time thinking
about things like ecosystem restoration or you know, changing the
pushing back against the government or the economic system that
is impoverishing and inflicting violence upon people. She's just really

(02:51:50):
fixated on the destiny. And so that's when I get
into the Food Book and things I learned about the
Third Book when I was researching for this episode. But
actually planned on exploring the fulfillment the destiny in the
third book, um Parable of the trick Still. In fact,
she intended to have a seven part series, so the
third book would have been near the middle, as the

(02:52:14):
story would have focused on another woman named Imara, who
is living on he called me in the future, on
a planet called Boom, far away from Earth. Cold. It
is not the heaven that was hoped for, but gray,
dank and utterly miserable. Everybody is homesick. Um homesick, not
just in like, oh, I haven't been home in a

(02:52:36):
while kind of thing, homesick in the sense of, like
you know when someone is like an amputee and they
have this sort of phantom limb sensation. Yeah, this homesickness
is like a phantom limb pain, a neurological debilitation. It's
like trying to graft humanity answer new planet, and it's

(02:53:01):
it's it's like if humanity were a branch and this
new plant was a tree, and like both the tree
and the branch are kind of rejecting each other. Um.
And so she never really got very far into writing
Parable of the Tricksters. In fact, she had a lot
of different um ways of approaching it a lot of

(02:53:24):
different manuscripts that she got, you know, a couple of
pages into and then discarded. You know, so in some
versions the call instead of having like creeping blindness. In others,
they get this telepathy um. In other versions, she has
to solve a murder. Another version, she becomes a ghost.

(02:53:44):
Sometimes she's an earth an earth Seed skeptics. Sometimes she's
a true believer. Sometimes she's a hyper rampath. Sometimes she's
cured of it um. Sometimes the planet itself is filled
with giant dinosaurs, other times small animals, other times intel
gent aliens um. And there's also this idea, this I
would say, very Twilight Zone esque idea that the aliens

(02:54:09):
that they do encounter tokens of their escalating collective madness.
And so the whole idea of power of the tricks
to and would have been the subsequent books was you know,
the continuation of the concept of choice choosing to either
you know, live together, we're together, struggle together, or you know,

(02:54:31):
fight and scheme and lose their minds, break down, die
and murder alone. In a speech to the u N
in two thousand one, that would be like five years
before she passed away. I think she did, like I
said two thousand and six, she speaks about how before
she even like started working on the first Parable novel,

(02:54:52):
she wanted to write a novel about a utopian civilization
where everybody had a kind of hyper empathy. But then
actually figured it would be a utopian society because everyone
would be inclined to, you know, behave in a more
pro social way, because any anti social activity they would have,

(02:55:18):
you know, inflict upon others would be inflixed upon themselves immediately.
But then she realized it wouldn't work because sharing pain,
the threat of shared pain, doesn't necessarily make people behave
better towards another. She points to be the popular pain
full supports of you know, like boxing and American football,

(02:55:39):
you know. And so she recognizes that this idea of
everyone being a hypergram path bec cause a lot of trouble.
I mean, if everyone feels each other's pain, who wants
to be a dentist? You know, who wants to be
a newse um. And so she discards that idea and
she basically created Lauren, who was a lone hyper and
path in the would that is empathy deficient ultimately, I think,

(02:56:07):
But I guess the heart of you know a lot
of the issues that we're dealing with, um, she grapp us,
a lot of questions that should still be explored, the
idea of inclusion and exclusion, that balance when you know,
developing community, concept of perseverance, UM, concept of hope, the

(02:56:31):
creation and destruction and re birth of really life, and
just what makes life life? I guess I'll wrap things
up with the code. Does tolerance have a chance only
if we wanted to tolerance, Like any aspect of peace,

(02:56:55):
it's forever a week in progress, never completed. And if
we are as an intelligent as we'd like to think,
we are never abandoned. That's it. What has change? Chep
Guarded Peace? Well, I think that's about as good a
line as any to end on. Go read Octavia Butler.

(02:57:17):
If you haven't check her out, go to the library.
Her ships all over the library. Libraries are filthy with
Octavia Butler books. You'll find it or steal it off
the internet. She's not gonna mind. Hey, We'll be back
Monday with more episodes every week from now until the
heat death of the universe. It could happen years. A

(02:57:38):
production of Cool Zone Media For more podcasts from cool
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find sources for It could happen here, Updated monthly at
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