November 17, 2021 • 35 mins
We talk with Kim Kelly about Striketober, the importance of maintaining support for strikes after they leave the headlines, and the potential for labor action to move conservatives left
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Podcast. All right, well I've done my job for the day. Wow,
if you've even by our standards, that's a that's an intro,
that's actually thank you. This is, of course it could
happen here a show about how things aren't going so great,
kind of falling apart, crumbling a bit, but also maybe
(00:29):
things could be better. That would be nice. Let's try
and do that. Today is one of the maybe things
could be better episodes. And we are talking about the
ongoing wave of strikes. We had strike Tober last month
with John Dear strikes and and and strikes uh and
like what you call it, a couple of different food companies,
a bunch of strikes um. And today we would like
(00:51):
to get an update on all the motherfucker's who are
out there striking for better conditions um and and better
treatment um and today, for that purpose, we've brought on
the great Kim Kelly. Kim, you are a journalist who
focuses a hell of a lot on labor. You've been
up and down to some of the cold strikes that
have been going on. You were there for the Amazon
(01:13):
attempt to form the union in um O Gez. Was
that Arizona um Alabama, Alabama. UM, and you're writing a
book on the history of labor um in the United States.
So I'd like to just kind of turn the floor
over to you. There's a four, there's okay, there's a floor.
There's the floor. It is filthy, just as it ends up.
(01:35):
You know, we're doing our best, aren't we ye weird?
Yeah you are, we are not I am. I'm trying
to keep up with all this labor action, this exciting action,
hot labor action, some hot labor action stories. So as
you mentioned, we're just kind of coasting off of the
peak of Striketober, which was such a fun thing to
(01:57):
kind of see explode in the mainstream consciousness. Like usually,
abor stories, they are a big deal to the people
that are involved in them and people in the labor
world who are watching and like rooting for them. But
they don't necessarily end up on like, you know, the
mainstream like that they end up on the TV. They
don't end up with like fancy old guys talking about
it on dateline or whatever. But that's something that happened,
(02:19):
and I think there's been a real shifting consciousness that
is a company that and of course you know, it's
like Striketober is fun. There's all these these big strikes
happening at the same time. But we of course need
to remember that that didn't happen in a vacuum. There's
people on strike now who have been on strike since before,
since before it was cool, right, since much earlier. Like
shout out to the St. Vincent nurses up in Massachusetts
(02:41):
and to the coal miners in Brookwood, Alabama, Warrior met
who have both been on strike for over eight months,
and they kind of right so literally like they're like
they're in the middle of their tour drives for their
children because they've been on strike for so long, and
they kind of got a little bit left out of
the conversation around strike tober and and I think that
just kind of shows that we need to be paying
(03:02):
attention even when it's not as flashy or new or exciting.
I mean strikes or was exciting. But you know, there's
a lot going on, and one of the things I
think is interesting and important, especially as we head into
strikes giving, which I guess we're doing. Yeah, strikes giving
strike Smiths, strike in time, day thank you very I
(03:22):
guess day forth strike you Lily, Yeah, yeah, it's it
gets worse Earl really until we get to labor day,
and by the Striker's Day, that one works pretty well.
I'm also a fan of striking Time's Day, um strike
and tized Day. That's cute. Well, that's right, baby, keep
(03:46):
this going. Yeah, strike strike. There's a missed opportunity there.
Although that that frightens me, Garrison that the band Ween
might go on strike, and I don't know, so we do.
We wouldn't have our we would we would be completely
out of Ween, our reserves. I Ween aren't going to
last long if they stop ends. Yeah, there's been a
(04:10):
tragic shortage of Ween for years now. I don't know
that we can handle the stripe. I mean, I didn't
realize you were a nerd, Robert. This is kind of
throw some things into question. Yeah, yeah, I mean, as
a heavy metal dirt bag, I'm like contractually obligated to
say things like that. But as I was pontificating a
(04:32):
minute ago, right, So, as we go into strikes giving,
there are still more big strikes on the horizon and
potential big strikes in the horizon. But part of the
story that I think is also very energizing and important
is the organizing that's happening in the new unions that
are hopefully gonna end up being formed, not necessarily as
a result of this wave of attention, but they're kind
(04:53):
of caught up in the tide. I mean, we look
at the Starbucks workers in Buffalo who have scared the
ship out of their doors to the point where they're
flying executives in to follow them around the store and
be like, please don't vote for reunion. We need all
of our billions of dollars we can't share. Or you know,
even workers at wire Cutter who are threatening to strike
on Black Friday and their whole thing is telling people
(05:16):
what's stuff to buy, you know, and McDonald's workers, and
I think ten different these are ten different cities of
ten different states, ten different locations just went out on
like a one day strike over sexual harassment in the workplace.
Kroger workers are taking a strike authorization vote in Texas.
We have multiple Amazon organizing attempts happening in Staten Island,
(05:37):
and a rerun of the election coming up in Bestmalabama.
And there's just so much happening that, you know, I
hope that the novelty idea of the strikes, tolder strikes
giving I hope like that was fun. But I hope
now that people are paying attention, that they stay interested
and realize that, you know, labor stories. Maybe it's not
necessarily always like a big strike or like a cool
(05:57):
picket line to look at, but there's a lot going on,
Like every story is a work story, every story is
a labor story, and people seem like they're finally catching
on the fact that you know, we're all workers and wow,
cool things happen when we come together. Yeah. I hope
that too, And I hope that um, you know, the
the word on everybody's lips, who's I don't know, coming
(06:19):
at this from kind of a little bit of a
more uh, either radical or desperate point of view, depending
on how you want to frame it. Is like general strike,
general strike, and you know, there's there's been some there's
been people online who keep saying like, Okay, well we're
all just gonna go on on Black Friday, everybody general strike,
And it's like, yeah, well you don't. You don't set
that up on Twitter. Like the the unions that are
(06:41):
striking now have strike funds and put a lot of
thought into it and have like had to take there's
things you have to do in order to not irresponsibly
like just screw over a bunch of working people. Um,
but it is like, I'm a believer in the potential
of something like a general strike to to forcing nificant concessions.
(07:02):
I mean, if we did it right, Yeah, I guess
I think if. I mean, it's a huge if because
it's never really effectively been like there's been pieces of
it done like we saw. I think the closest we've
gotten in like my lifetime has been when the the
airline workers threatened to go on strike over the over
the budget thing, and you just saw the federal government go,
(07:23):
oh fuck, nope, you know what, we can actually pass
this thing. I mean, that's the thing like that threat
that I think that was Sara Nelson said that even
like hinted towards that in twenty nineteen when the government shutdown.
That's sort of that was a tipping point. I think
that's the first time people, well really was well the
first time in many people's lifetimes that an actual labor
(07:45):
leader with that platform had even mentioned those words. Because
general like general strikes historically kind of are more situated
than that late nineteenth century, early twentieth century, like labor
swinging its stick around era and we've been kneecapped so
much that doesn't feel it is as possible. But I
mean the fact that she said, and she was part
of the airline industry. If we're ever going to actually
(08:07):
you know, bring capital to its knees, we're going to
need the transportation workers. We're gonna need the dock workers.
We're gonna need to like actually analyze who is moving
things around the country, who's making sure things work, and
how can we get them to put down to down
their tools and be like, Okay, we're gonna do something
about this. You know, the whole general strike idea, I mean,
(08:27):
I mean, and arguably like one of the first ones
was you know, Black reconstruction. They the book, there's a uh,
this argument that the first general strike was enslaved enslaved
people leaving the plantations and with drawing their labor from
that situation, like that was a form of striking. And
I think the general strike is kind of a morphous idea,
(08:50):
especially online as more people learn about labor and learn
about it, But it's also like kind of a specific thing,
like you can't just declare like, Okay, we're all not
going to go to work till more. Are like cool,
But there's so much planning that goes into it to
make sure that people are able to do that and
sustain that. And the people that are traditionally you know,
already left out were the most vulnerable and marginalize like
(09:12):
that their needs are prioritized because the people that can
afford to declare general strike and not show up for
a week, like that's all well and good for them,
but what about everyone else who can barely afford to
go to work at all? Yeah, I've had these arguments
with people online, and it's often like, well, you're saying
we shouldn't like if we just do it, people will
(09:33):
figure it out, like the infrastructure will be build after
the fact. And I'm like that's I'm glad that you're
in a situation where you feel like you could you
could handle that kind of uncertainty. But like a single
mother of four who relies on her job to like
keep them fed and alive, isn't going to be like
someone will figure out how to feed my kids, Like, well,
(09:53):
that's not how people work, you know. Yeah, this is
we're having like a robust commitment to mutual aid and
strike funds, and like an actual fabric, like having the
fabric of community where you can depend on your neighbors
instead of never talking to them, Like a general strike
would have a huge impact, but on who, Like who
would it hurt more if you didn't plan it properly,
(10:15):
if you didn't have if you didn't have an actual
grassroots network of people ready to help, if you didn't
need to understanding that not everyone can just go run
off in the streets. Some people like have mobility issues,
some people have children, some people are older or sicker. Like,
there's so much that goes into it. Yeah, it's like
your car is fucked up and you know you need
to take it in to get some stuff fixed, or
(10:37):
it's eventually going to break down entirely. But that doesn't
mean the right solution is just get in there and
start hitting ship with a hammer, like you need there
needs to be like some systemic way you approach it right,
Like there's a proper way to fix an engine, right,
and we can do that, Like we can start building
those networks. We can start you can organize your workplace
and plug into the into like the organized labor framework,
(10:59):
which obviously as many flaws, not as radical as I
would and many other people would like it to be.
But they know how to do this. Ship Like, there's
a lot of different pieces that can be pulled together
in different organizations and populations that need to work together
if we're actually going to accomplish something like this, And
I don't know if people are ready to put in
(11:19):
all that work because it's more fun to tweet. Yeah,
but I'm wondering, as they say in Alabama, bless their hearts,
You're you're spending a tremendous mman, as you just noted,
you're spending a tremendous amount of time on the ground
with a lot of these people talking with them. Are
you are you seeing kind of how how are you
(11:39):
hearing them talk about the other strike efforts you know
in other industries that are going on right now, because
it has been more in the news than it's been
at any point I can recall in the recent past.
And I'm wondering how in places like Bessemer, you know,
in places like um you know that coal miners strike
you've been at, like, how are they being are to
what extent are they talking about other strike efforts, Like
is that does that seem to be something that there's
(12:00):
a lot of kind of consciousness and discussion about or
is it just kind of in the background. I mean,
it really depends. I like you said, I've spent I
spent most of my time with the coal miners over
the past years. I've been writing a book and I
spent my one my one fun thing. But I've been
I mean I talked to them every single day, and
I've been to Alabama lots of times, and I you know,
I'm in a group chat with the wives, Like I know,
I have a decent grasp what was going on. And honestly,
(12:22):
the thing about it is that some there, there's some
folks who are very engaged and who have made twitters
and they have their Facebook groups, and they do pay
attention what's happening, and they do think they feel that
kind of excitement and that wide spread says its solidarity.
But one thing that's important to remember, especially for workers
who are already disadvantaged or they're dealing with low wage labor,
(12:42):
is like it's really hard to go on strike. Like
there's a lot of ship they have to figure out,
Like there's kids, there's health issues, there's how am I
going to pay my rent? Like, like funds are great,
but they don't cover everything. Like I think that's one
of the realities that maybe gets sort of glossed over
because we're also on line that we like to you
and me feel like, oh, everyone's fucking stoked about these strikes.
(13:04):
But for someone in rural Alabama who is just hoping
this strike is over soon so they can go back
to work and have some financial stability, they're not necessarily
reading your tweets or like signing up for webinars or
even paying attention to like cool other strike efforts. I'm
sure some some folks are aware and they find have
that time to plug in, but most people are just
(13:25):
trying to get by. And these are folks who have
spend like eight hours a day on the picket lines
and there's no cell phone service out where their picket
lines are, Like, there's only so much that a normal
regular worker on the picket line can do to keep up.
And um, you came into this, I think, unlike a
lot of the people who are who are actually striking,
(13:46):
you came into this with a lifelong history of the
like of interest in kind of uh, labor justice movements
and whatnot, which I don't think most people who are
in unions necessarily spend a ton of time studying the
last hundred years of labor relations Um, what has surprised you? Like?
What what have what? What has like been a new
realization that you've gotten since you started covering the stuff
(14:09):
on the ground in this most recent period. So the
thing that's really sticks with me and I'm going back
to my minors again because that's, you know, my where
the most familiarity, but something that I think has so
much potential and I'm not going to entirely sure how
to articulate what that potential is. But so something I
have seen is when this strike began, most not all,
(14:30):
but the majority of the folks involved in this particular strike,
or conservative Christian people who were a lot of voted
for trial, but a lot of them were like just
in that world, maybe not like you know, wild mega people,
but that's just what was the norm where they are
in their community. And then we'll think about that much.
But there are some people that I've seen, especially those
(14:50):
were involved in the mutual aid efforts or have been
who have seen Birmingham DSA come out who have kind
of taken this kind of like wider review of what's happening,
how they fit, and I've seen their politics and their
perspective shift, Like there are some people who are like
straight up socialists now that seven months ago would have
probably spit in your face or at least given you
(15:12):
a hell of a look if you wouldn't even suggested
such a thing. And this is a small sample size,
and this is a unique situation, but I think it
really speaks to the potential there to like reach people
who are very ideologically politically different from what we maybe
think of as labor people, as progressive, radical whatever people
on our team, right, But the power of the strike
(15:35):
and the power of labor is that there is so
much there. There's kind of an inherent common ground because
so many people, most people, a lot of people, most
people have a job, a lot of people hate their boss.
You can kind of build from that very very low
baseline and find more common ground, and kind of you
can you can work towards a better understanding, Like maybe
(15:57):
you're not going to be best friends, but you can
potentially shift someone's harmful worldview by exposing them to new
ideas once they trust that you're not just there to
tell them they're wrong and stupid and bad. Really, look,
we were coming at this like I'm going to talk
to you like a person. I understand we see the
world differently, but like you know, I'm here to support you.
(16:17):
I'm here listening to you. Maybe you could listen to
what I have to say too, Maybe it might change
how you see things. And sometimes it works. Yeah, yeah, um,
you know what else works? Kim blowing shut up? Well okay,
alleged allegedly um minecraft. Yeah, I was gonna say cap ads,
(16:41):
cap ads, m ads and services. Um, but I like
your answer better. So let's just let's just let's just
roll out with that material support, right. Like another concrete
(17:03):
example there, the Birmingham DSA has been very active in
fundraising and showing up and just providing support for the
miners and and the people on strike. And this is
not necessarily a population of people that like the idea
of socialism, whatever idea of it is that they hold,
because Fox News and rusal In Barre are big cultural
(17:24):
stand bias there like whatever they think socialism is, and
then have a bunch of socialists show up and just
practice solidarity and mutual aiding practice socialism, and they're like, oh,
these guys are great, thank you for coming out and
things like that, where it's like, I feel like so
much of a radical politics in various you know, various tendencies.
There's just like a branding problem, and there's a propaganda
(17:47):
problem on the right wing, and the main sture media
doesn't tell anybody what anything means. Like, yeah, that's a
broader conversation, right, But yeah, I felt for a while
like one of the things that leftist organized just need
to get better at doing is being willing to like
drop names when they're not productive. Like, Okay, maybe these people,
(18:08):
because of the media environment, they've grown up and are
never gonna want to consider themselves socialists, But if they
are willing to organize together and support the efforts of
other working people to organize together against the capital holding class,
like then okay, Like what is it? Why do you
need them to like start quoting Carl Marx or is
it just cool that you've you've got them doing what
(18:29):
they like? Yeah? I that makes a lot of sense
to me that, like, yes, some that you can get
a lot of these people on board with again, pretty
radical things if you're if you're kind of approaching it
from within their world, from within, like I'm not trying
to talk to you about burning down the system. I'm
trying to talk to you about how you get what
you need. And it just so happens that how you
(18:49):
get what you need um is taking the system on
in a very direct way. I mean, so many ideas
that are painted as radical just like aren't like that's
normal people caring for him, like it is like community
care and common sense. It's just been politicized to this
insane extent, and even it's like, oh sorry, I'm just
(19:12):
like even like a lot a lot of the tenants
of mutual aid you can even see pop up in
a lot of like church communities as well, at least
like at least like smaller you know, closer knit like
communities that are actually based around helping each other at
least I was. I've observed that and a lot of
my time traveling across the States. Yeah, absolutely, that's a
huge part of it. Like the church is the only
mutual aid option in so many like smaller and more
(19:33):
ice li rural communities or just communities where the church
is a big deal, Like there's always ways to chip
away these institutions and eventually hopefully burned them down right
without alienating people and making them feel like you're coming
in and telling them everything you believe is wrong and
actually and making the mistakes. And of these folks, I'm
sure they believe things that are absolute garbage, and I
(19:53):
would never everybody, you know, like there's you know, but
there's there's just covering This strike in particular has really
just taught me a lot about the gray areas in between,
not in like I wish you watched a liberal way,
but just in a way of like, how do you
relate to normal fucking people who see the world differently
but are in ultimately the same struggle as you, Like,
(20:16):
maybe I could, I mean going down there. The only
time I've been around that many Trump supporters was like
at protests where I was yelling at them, or like
at my family dinners. So I wasn't, you know, I
wasn't expecting to make friends, But then I did, And
I think hopefully we've we've shifted each other's perspectives a
(20:36):
little bit in a way that's beneficial. I don't know,
it's been, it's been interesting. Yes, talking to people really
is a lot different than tweeting at them. Yeah, as
a rule, don't tweet would be my recommendation to people.
Never never talk to your neighbors and be nice to
(20:56):
people when you buy coffee or food from them, and
amazed what happens, and yeah, tell your neighbors. Hey, I'm
taking my phone down to the river to throw it in.
Can I take your phone with me? Can we just
all throw our phones in the river? Um, yeah, if
you want to. If you're gonna start at being the
weird neighbor, it's a strong start. Look, we've already killed
(21:16):
the water system, so it's fine, like just right in
the river with the car batteries, you know, they're The
thing I love about our show is just the hope,
is the incredibly hope injected optimism that we start an
end every episode with. But no, I mean, like me, like, yeah,
the more people you know in your community, especially people
who are like working class, you know, when bad stuff
(21:39):
starts happening, the more people you know the better, Because
that's I'm guessing a lot of a lot of these
people who are like you know, like like like like
old like old union workers. They have a lot of
like physical skills, like like they know how to do
a whole bunch of stuff, and it might be worth
getting to know some of those people, even if you
know where you live, Like, yeah, they'll probably say something
(22:02):
not great at least for you know, the first bit.
But once you know, I have a lot of family
and like a rural area of Alberta, and like, yeah,
my my family is like pretty gay. Um So you know,
once you're in close to the people, yeah, they're they're
gonna say something that's maybe not great. But once they
get to like know you and really be like, oh,
like you're another person. They like people. Actually, you know,
(22:23):
people want to be around other people, and they'll even
change the way they talk to be like oh yeah,
maybe this isn't the best way to hang out around
people because it's going to drive people away. So yeah,
I'll change the way I say some things because like
it turns out people actually, like a lot of a
lot of folks just kind of want to make their
lives a bit better and that's really their main focus. Yeah,
(22:45):
it's hard to not to do that, and it's it's
it's just this matter of like so much of what
um so much of what kind of the way that
discourse happens online has poisoned aspects of active is M
is in like making it difficult for people to relate
(23:05):
in that way without feeling like, well, okay, but if
I can't get them on board with all of these
other things, like I can't talk with them or whatever,
like because they're because they don't agree with you like
this and this, like we can't organize like the purity
of ideology. Yeah, Like I feel like most people who
aren't terminally online don't even necessarily have like a specific
ideology not yeah yeah right, Like there's just stuff that
(23:29):
they have learned or they have decided that is true
about the world. They just kind of go with it
and they'll interrogated all the time, and you can like
those are people you can talk to and maybe ship,
like I've done it with my dad, Like I've seen
it happen with some of these conservative coal minor folks.
Like something as small as being able to humanize, like like, okay,
if you're talking about something, oh like, well, the thing
(23:51):
you said like that really upset Joey and you like Joey,
so like maybe think about that, and they'll probably be
chiller because like, oh, well that's you know, it's Joey.
I can't don't want to be a dick to them.
If we can just find a way to enact that
on a pray broad scale, life would be a lot
better for a lot of people. Yeah, it's this. It's
this dichotomy between a lot people want to own the
(24:13):
folks they see as like being against them or being
on the other side. But also people don't want to
be a dick to people that like they like, you
don't want to feel like you're a dick. So if
you if you lean more into the weird in opposition,
then you're going to trigger the well I want to
I want to make the person who disagrees with me
(24:34):
angry side of the brain. But if you can lean
into the like, hey, like we can get along like
and I and and maybe you don't want to feel
like an asshole if we get along, then I don't know,
that's a productive place to to continue conversations from and
a good way to shift people. I think. And then
when you're and then when your area floods because of
severe rain and storms, that we have people that can help. Yeah,
(24:57):
it's the importance of interacting with people in person like offline,
which is like obviously more difficult to do because we're
still trying to depend Yeah, like their caveat, caveat, caveat,
but like it's so much easier to talk to someone
and kind of like see the world you shift, or
even to humanize yourself to someone who is inclined to
not thinking of you as someone worth talking to, Like, yeah,
(25:19):
as long as it's not you're not putting yourself in danger,
like there's yeah, obviously I'm a blond lady, you know.
But yeah, still we're not talking about like, oh, you
have to go be friendly to people who want to
murder you because your trance. No, it's about No, we're
not saying that. But most of these people don't think
that maybe they have some regressive attitude or or they'll
(25:40):
use the word gay to mean something, you know, not cool,
and you'd be like, hey, you don't have to to
be like, hey, you know, I'm you know, I'm actually
gay jan or maybe don't hope that maybe you do
depending on the situation, to be like yeah, maybe maybe
there's other words that we can use for this, because whatever, yeah,
and and you can shift people into a your alliance, um,
(26:01):
just by becoming a human in their eyes and also
letting them become a human in your eyes, um, which
is necessary. The other option is not a pleasant one.
So I would prefer the option where more people grow
to see each other as human and worth supporting. Right,
I know there's better tactic to me. Yeah, I know.
There's this argument where like, no one is like I
(26:22):
shouldn't have to educate you, I shouldn't have to put
the time into to shift you, and like that is valid,
that's fair, Like you shouldn't have to but ideally know, yeah,
but if you want to that change to happen, it's
probably not going to happen unless she puts an effort
in because they're probably not gone. They think they're fine.
And I don't know, there's a bunch of ship that
(26:43):
you shouldn't have to do that we're also all gonna
have to do Like I shouldn't we I shouldn't have
to say, hey, guys, maybe we don't kill the ocean.
Maybe killing the ocean is a bad idea, Like I
shouldn't have to no one should have to say that,
but we do not top not please the fact that
(27:04):
you shouldn't have to do something. Also doesn't mean that
like the thing doesn't need to be done. And obviously
I don't think that the primary onus on speaking to
let's say, the kind of increasingly radicalized white, lower middle
and middle class. I don't think that falls primarily on
on people of color, on on the LGBT community. It
(27:24):
falls on people like you and make Kim. You know, Yeah,
but it's still has to be done. Like it's a
thing that needs to be done. And I'm not saying, hey,
you out there, who you know, left where you grew
up in rural Alabama because someone was going to fucking
murder you and you had to get to a place
where you could not deal with that. I'm not saying
you need to go rolling back to Alabama. Um, but
(27:48):
it's good that people are talking and working with and
trying to build connections with folks out there and change
the nature of kind of aspects of the culture and
make things better, because that needs to be done. We
can't just be like, well fuck some of those people. Yeah,
and we get that. That is definitely easier if you
are like one of the bros. If you are you know,
(28:09):
a bigger sis adjacent dude, that is that is of
course going to make things easier. Yeah, I mean when
you think about like that's kind of the text, that's
the right word. But the fact that you do feel
comfortable and you're you're safe and you're not under a
threat in those spaces because of who you are, like
as like a white sister or even a white says
(28:30):
lady like you like the price you pay for that
is making it easier for everyone else to feel that too,
like exactly, like that's your job, other people's jobs to survive,
and you can be the one that pushes the boundaries
on these things. So when someone says something not great,
you can kind of call them out in like a
browish way, and they can respond to that a lot
better than, you know than a lot of other people
(28:51):
who they don't know, you know, screaming at them in
a no context scenario. We're like, oh, like, oh, you don't.
I'm like, I'm a pretty lady. You don't want to
make me upset by being wooed that exactly, yeah, Like
you shouldn't. You should see this thing as rude and
not okay. Like the amount of men who have apologized
me down there for swearing it's so funny. Yeah, man,
(29:11):
my dude, I live in Philadelphia. But that's cute. But
if I could dis harness any of that like chivalrous
whatever rose patriarchal viewpoint, like hey, apply this to being
cool to my trans friends are like not being rude
to anyone else, Like sure, I'm down. Yeah, we don't
take collingly to miss gendering around these parts. Yeah, for
(29:44):
a lot of people at least, like you know, when
I worked at like smaller workplaces, you know, where it's
like a small business where I know the owner. Even
if I mean if some other employees want to unionize,
the prospect is always kind of more weird or challenging
because you know, it's a smaller business. Maybe it's like
connected to like a larger, you know, larger overall industry.
You know, like when I was like when I when
I was like a park or instructor, right, I had
(30:04):
discussions with other with other like employees about doing you know,
like a Parker instructors union type thing. But but it's
it's it's hard when there's there's like not many of
you or like you know the owner. What would you
say is like good good ways to at least get
get that conversation going among other employees and then you know,
like similar similar examples from other stuff for people who
deal with like smaller workplaces that aren't you know, like
(30:25):
a co worker. They're not working for the Amazon or anything.
You know, it's it's more like small local stuff, right, So,
like the most important basic building block of of all
this is one on one conversation that's organizing. Right, And
even if you just work with like three or four
other people and maybe unionizing and a formal structure doesn't
necessarily make sense or it seems like it might be
(30:45):
too much of a headache, you're still you know, like
a group of workers coming together is still a union.
It doesn't matter what the n l r B has
to say about it. And you you have shared interests
and share challenges, and there's things that work you probably
want to change. So even coming together and discussing that
through coworkers, Like, there's no law that says you have
to be in a union. If you want to get
some ship done, you can march on your boss at
(31:06):
WW style and make them and demand a meeting. You
can make a petition, you can do public pressure campaigns,
like all of the things when all of them, but
a lot of the tools that we see organized labor
engaging in and union is engaging in those are those
are available to everyone else too. It's easier if you're
within that framework because you have that firepower behind you
and you have maybe some legal protections, but just as workers,
(31:29):
you know, I guess it's more like the IWW solidarity
uneuse a multiply where like we didn't like we don't
need to do no stinking badges like we're a union
because we say we're a union. We're going to take
control of things in our own way. Like you see
this in UM. I'm trying to say, I think what's
it called diversity threast there's a there's a threast shop
and I think Richmond, Virginia where workers just like they
(31:51):
weren't being treated properly. I think it was like a
like a queer community space that wasn't living up to
its values due to actions by management, and so they
just put a letter on the doors that we're not
coming to work until you fix this. Here are clear demands,
here's what we need. Here you go figure it out.
Like I don't think they're in a formal union, but
they're acting collectively and that's something that is totally available
(32:13):
that to everyone as long as you're in a workplace.
If you're independent contractor like me and probably some of you,
that sucks and it's harder, but you can always find
your people and you can always there's always options, right,
Like you don't have to just join at union. You
don't have to be a teamster to get shipped done. Yeah.
I think you know when you were saying that, I
was going through my past experience as a place like that,
(32:35):
and I'm like, yeah, we we kind of did do
some of that stuff to varying degrees of success. Sometimes
it works out well, sometimes it doesn't work out so well. Um,
but yeah, I mean there was definitely a while where
we did that did definitely make them make some decent
changes kind of based on on that model. Yeah, it's
kind of a shift of perception where like you were
just doing this because this is because you're a worker,
(32:55):
and like we need to do this. But if you
just take a step back and think about it's like
this is a labor at s and we're a union
of workers. Like even just that little shift where it's
like it's it's always us against them, but look as
us as a little as a group, as a collective
against this manager, against this exploitative practice. I think that
has a little bit of power and a little bit
of energy because your religion now and I'm still I
(33:18):
think maybe it makes you feel a little less alone
and also like and like you know, concerned activity is
a legally protective yard too, so like there are some
bits and pieces of labor law that are useful in
these situations too, if you have a nerdy friend who
would like to read about them for you. All right, well,
(33:39):
I think that's going to do it for us here
and it could happen here. Um until next time, remember,
um you fuck it organized? And where can people find
Kim Kelly online if we want to send angry tweets?
Oh well just try me, buddy, um grim Kim because
(34:01):
my college radio DJ name will never die. And uh
you can if you are thus inclined, you can pre
order my book. But like hell, the Untold History of
American Labor on the internet hopefully not Amazon, hopefully not. Yeah.
I mean, if you do like, thank you, but there's
other places that are better. You do you want people
to send you a bunch of random knives, Kim knives.
(34:24):
I mean I wouldn't. We've had a lot of luck
with that in the past. I like nice that, like skincare.
I like loose leaf tea. I contain multitudes. Really, send
Kim a loose leaf T skincare knife, one of those,
one of those exfoliating knives with a with a T
infuser in the in the hilt. Somebody make that great.
(34:45):
Somebody that sounds like that sounds like the next behind
the bastards merch. Yeah, the T knife. Yeah, well, we'll
put that out after we get finished where We've got
a very exciting Black Friday product this year, which is
a male to male uh let's adapter. People say you
shouldn't do it. They say it causes electrocution and fires
and death. And I think those people are cuts um
(35:07):
by our mail to mail adapter show the woke establishment
that you won't be you won't be chained. It could
happen here as a production of pool Zone Media. Well
more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool
zone media dot com, or check us out on the
(35:27):
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to podcasts you can find sources for It could happen here,
Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources.
Thanks for listening.
Podcast. All right, well I've done my job for the day. Wow,
if you've even by our standards, that's a that's an intro,
that's actually thank you. This is, of course it could
happen here a show about how things aren't going so great,
kind of falling apart, crumbling a bit, but also maybe
(00:29):
things could be better. That would be nice. Let's try
and do that. Today is one of the maybe things
could be better episodes. And we are talking about the
ongoing wave of strikes. We had strike Tober last month
with John Dear strikes and and and strikes uh and
like what you call it, a couple of different food companies,
a bunch of strikes um. And today we would like
(00:51):
to get an update on all the motherfucker's who are
out there striking for better conditions um and and better
treatment um and today, for that purpose, we've brought on
the great Kim Kelly. Kim, you are a journalist who
focuses a hell of a lot on labor. You've been
up and down to some of the cold strikes that
have been going on. You were there for the Amazon
(01:13):
attempt to form the union in um O Gez. Was
that Arizona um Alabama, Alabama. UM, and you're writing a
book on the history of labor um in the United States.
So I'd like to just kind of turn the floor
over to you. There's a four, there's okay, there's a floor.
There's the floor. It is filthy, just as it ends up.
(01:35):
You know, we're doing our best, aren't we ye weird?
Yeah you are, we are not I am. I'm trying
to keep up with all this labor action, this exciting action,
hot labor action, some hot labor action stories. So as
you mentioned, we're just kind of coasting off of the
peak of Striketober, which was such a fun thing to
(01:57):
kind of see explode in the mainstream consciousness. Like usually,
abor stories, they are a big deal to the people
that are involved in them and people in the labor
world who are watching and like rooting for them. But
they don't necessarily end up on like, you know, the
mainstream like that they end up on the TV. They
don't end up with like fancy old guys talking about
it on dateline or whatever. But that's something that happened,
(02:19):
and I think there's been a real shifting consciousness that
is a company that and of course you know, it's
like Striketober is fun. There's all these these big strikes
happening at the same time. But we of course need
to remember that that didn't happen in a vacuum. There's
people on strike now who have been on strike since before,
since before it was cool, right, since much earlier. Like
shout out to the St. Vincent nurses up in Massachusetts
(02:41):
and to the coal miners in Brookwood, Alabama, Warrior met
who have both been on strike for over eight months,
and they kind of right so literally like they're like
they're in the middle of their tour drives for their
children because they've been on strike for so long, and
they kind of got a little bit left out of
the conversation around strike tober and and I think that
just kind of shows that we need to be paying
(03:02):
attention even when it's not as flashy or new or exciting.
I mean strikes or was exciting. But you know, there's
a lot going on, and one of the things I
think is interesting and important, especially as we head into
strikes giving, which I guess we're doing. Yeah, strikes giving
strike Smiths, strike in time, day thank you very I
(03:22):
guess day forth strike you Lily, Yeah, yeah, it's it
gets worse Earl really until we get to labor day,
and by the Striker's Day, that one works pretty well.
I'm also a fan of striking Time's Day, um strike
and tized Day. That's cute. Well, that's right, baby, keep
(03:46):
this going. Yeah, strike strike. There's a missed opportunity there.
Although that that frightens me, Garrison that the band Ween
might go on strike, and I don't know, so we do.
We wouldn't have our we would we would be completely
out of Ween, our reserves. I Ween aren't going to
last long if they stop ends. Yeah, there's been a
(04:10):
tragic shortage of Ween for years now. I don't know
that we can handle the stripe. I mean, I didn't
realize you were a nerd, Robert. This is kind of
throw some things into question. Yeah, yeah, I mean, as
a heavy metal dirt bag, I'm like contractually obligated to
say things like that. But as I was pontificating a
(04:32):
minute ago, right, So, as we go into strikes giving,
there are still more big strikes on the horizon and
potential big strikes in the horizon. But part of the
story that I think is also very energizing and important
is the organizing that's happening in the new unions that
are hopefully gonna end up being formed, not necessarily as
a result of this wave of attention, but they're kind
(04:53):
of caught up in the tide. I mean, we look
at the Starbucks workers in Buffalo who have scared the
ship out of their doors to the point where they're
flying executives in to follow them around the store and
be like, please don't vote for reunion. We need all
of our billions of dollars we can't share. Or you know,
even workers at wire Cutter who are threatening to strike
on Black Friday and their whole thing is telling people
(05:16):
what's stuff to buy, you know, and McDonald's workers, and
I think ten different these are ten different cities of
ten different states, ten different locations just went out on
like a one day strike over sexual harassment in the workplace.
Kroger workers are taking a strike authorization vote in Texas.
We have multiple Amazon organizing attempts happening in Staten Island,
(05:37):
and a rerun of the election coming up in Bestmalabama.
And there's just so much happening that, you know, I
hope that the novelty idea of the strikes, tolder strikes
giving I hope like that was fun. But I hope
now that people are paying attention, that they stay interested
and realize that, you know, labor stories. Maybe it's not
necessarily always like a big strike or like a cool
(05:57):
picket line to look at, but there's a lot going on,
Like every story is a work story, every story is
a labor story, and people seem like they're finally catching
on the fact that you know, we're all workers and wow,
cool things happen when we come together. Yeah. I hope
that too, And I hope that um, you know, the
the word on everybody's lips, who's I don't know, coming
(06:19):
at this from kind of a little bit of a
more uh, either radical or desperate point of view, depending
on how you want to frame it. Is like general strike,
general strike, and you know, there's there's been some there's
been people online who keep saying like, Okay, well we're
all just gonna go on on Black Friday, everybody general strike,
And it's like, yeah, well you don't. You don't set
that up on Twitter. Like the the unions that are
(06:41):
striking now have strike funds and put a lot of
thought into it and have like had to take there's
things you have to do in order to not irresponsibly
like just screw over a bunch of working people. Um,
but it is like, I'm a believer in the potential
of something like a general strike to to forcing nificant concessions.
(07:02):
I mean, if we did it right, Yeah, I guess
I think if. I mean, it's a huge if because
it's never really effectively been like there's been pieces of
it done like we saw. I think the closest we've
gotten in like my lifetime has been when the the
airline workers threatened to go on strike over the over
the budget thing, and you just saw the federal government go,
(07:23):
oh fuck, nope, you know what, we can actually pass
this thing. I mean, that's the thing like that threat
that I think that was Sara Nelson said that even
like hinted towards that in twenty nineteen when the government shutdown.
That's sort of that was a tipping point. I think
that's the first time people, well really was well the
first time in many people's lifetimes that an actual labor
(07:45):
leader with that platform had even mentioned those words. Because
general like general strikes historically kind of are more situated
than that late nineteenth century, early twentieth century, like labor
swinging its stick around era and we've been kneecapped so
much that doesn't feel it is as possible. But I
mean the fact that she said, and she was part
of the airline industry. If we're ever going to actually
(08:07):
you know, bring capital to its knees, we're going to
need the transportation workers. We're gonna need the dock workers.
We're gonna need to like actually analyze who is moving
things around the country, who's making sure things work, and
how can we get them to put down to down
their tools and be like, Okay, we're gonna do something
about this. You know, the whole general strike idea, I mean,
(08:27):
I mean, and arguably like one of the first ones
was you know, Black reconstruction. They the book, there's a uh,
this argument that the first general strike was enslaved enslaved
people leaving the plantations and with drawing their labor from
that situation, like that was a form of striking. And
I think the general strike is kind of a morphous idea,
(08:50):
especially online as more people learn about labor and learn
about it, But it's also like kind of a specific thing,
like you can't just declare like, Okay, we're all not
going to go to work till more. Are like cool,
But there's so much planning that goes into it to
make sure that people are able to do that and
sustain that. And the people that are traditionally you know,
already left out were the most vulnerable and marginalize like
(09:12):
that their needs are prioritized because the people that can
afford to declare general strike and not show up for
a week, like that's all well and good for them,
but what about everyone else who can barely afford to
go to work at all? Yeah, I've had these arguments
with people online, and it's often like, well, you're saying
we shouldn't like if we just do it, people will
(09:33):
figure it out, like the infrastructure will be build after
the fact. And I'm like that's I'm glad that you're
in a situation where you feel like you could you
could handle that kind of uncertainty. But like a single
mother of four who relies on her job to like
keep them fed and alive, isn't going to be like
someone will figure out how to feed my kids, Like, well,
(09:53):
that's not how people work, you know. Yeah, this is
we're having like a robust commitment to mutual aid and
strike funds, and like an actual fabric, like having the
fabric of community where you can depend on your neighbors
instead of never talking to them, Like a general strike
would have a huge impact, but on who, Like who
would it hurt more if you didn't plan it properly,
(10:15):
if you didn't have if you didn't have an actual
grassroots network of people ready to help, if you didn't
need to understanding that not everyone can just go run
off in the streets. Some people like have mobility issues,
some people have children, some people are older or sicker. Like,
there's so much that goes into it. Yeah, it's like
your car is fucked up and you know you need
to take it in to get some stuff fixed, or
(10:37):
it's eventually going to break down entirely. But that doesn't
mean the right solution is just get in there and
start hitting ship with a hammer, like you need there
needs to be like some systemic way you approach it right,
Like there's a proper way to fix an engine, right,
and we can do that, Like we can start building
those networks. We can start you can organize your workplace
and plug into the into like the organized labor framework,
(10:59):
which obviously as many flaws, not as radical as I
would and many other people would like it to be.
But they know how to do this. Ship Like, there's
a lot of different pieces that can be pulled together
in different organizations and populations that need to work together
if we're actually going to accomplish something like this, And
I don't know if people are ready to put in
(11:19):
all that work because it's more fun to tweet. Yeah,
but I'm wondering, as they say in Alabama, bless their hearts,
You're you're spending a tremendous mman, as you just noted,
you're spending a tremendous amount of time on the ground
with a lot of these people talking with them. Are
you are you seeing kind of how how are you
(11:39):
hearing them talk about the other strike efforts you know
in other industries that are going on right now, because
it has been more in the news than it's been
at any point I can recall in the recent past.
And I'm wondering how in places like Bessemer, you know,
in places like um you know that coal miners strike
you've been at, like, how are they being are to
what extent are they talking about other strike efforts, Like
is that does that seem to be something that there's
(12:00):
a lot of kind of consciousness and discussion about or
is it just kind of in the background. I mean,
it really depends. I like you said, I've spent I
spent most of my time with the coal miners over
the past years. I've been writing a book and I
spent my one my one fun thing. But I've been
I mean I talked to them every single day, and
I've been to Alabama lots of times, and I you know,
I'm in a group chat with the wives, Like I know,
I have a decent grasp what was going on. And honestly,
(12:22):
the thing about it is that some there, there's some
folks who are very engaged and who have made twitters
and they have their Facebook groups, and they do pay
attention what's happening, and they do think they feel that
kind of excitement and that wide spread says its solidarity.
But one thing that's important to remember, especially for workers
who are already disadvantaged or they're dealing with low wage labor,
(12:42):
is like it's really hard to go on strike. Like
there's a lot of ship they have to figure out,
Like there's kids, there's health issues, there's how am I
going to pay my rent? Like, like funds are great,
but they don't cover everything. Like I think that's one
of the realities that maybe gets sort of glossed over
because we're also on line that we like to you
and me feel like, oh, everyone's fucking stoked about these strikes.
(13:04):
But for someone in rural Alabama who is just hoping
this strike is over soon so they can go back
to work and have some financial stability, they're not necessarily
reading your tweets or like signing up for webinars or
even paying attention to like cool other strike efforts. I'm
sure some some folks are aware and they find have
that time to plug in, but most people are just
(13:25):
trying to get by. And these are folks who have
spend like eight hours a day on the picket lines
and there's no cell phone service out where their picket
lines are, Like, there's only so much that a normal
regular worker on the picket line can do to keep up.
And um, you came into this, I think, unlike a
lot of the people who are who are actually striking,
(13:46):
you came into this with a lifelong history of the
like of interest in kind of uh, labor justice movements
and whatnot, which I don't think most people who are
in unions necessarily spend a ton of time studying the
last hundred years of labor relations Um, what has surprised you? Like?
What what have what? What has like been a new
realization that you've gotten since you started covering the stuff
(14:09):
on the ground in this most recent period. So the
thing that's really sticks with me and I'm going back
to my minors again because that's, you know, my where
the most familiarity, but something that I think has so
much potential and I'm not going to entirely sure how
to articulate what that potential is. But so something I
have seen is when this strike began, most not all,
(14:30):
but the majority of the folks involved in this particular strike,
or conservative Christian people who were a lot of voted
for trial, but a lot of them were like just
in that world, maybe not like you know, wild mega people,
but that's just what was the norm where they are
in their community. And then we'll think about that much.
But there are some people that I've seen, especially those
(14:50):
were involved in the mutual aid efforts or have been
who have seen Birmingham DSA come out who have kind
of taken this kind of like wider review of what's happening,
how they fit, and I've seen their politics and their
perspective shift, Like there are some people who are like
straight up socialists now that seven months ago would have
probably spit in your face or at least given you
(15:12):
a hell of a look if you wouldn't even suggested
such a thing. And this is a small sample size,
and this is a unique situation, but I think it
really speaks to the potential there to like reach people
who are very ideologically politically different from what we maybe
think of as labor people, as progressive, radical whatever people
on our team, right, But the power of the strike
(15:35):
and the power of labor is that there is so
much there. There's kind of an inherent common ground because
so many people, most people, a lot of people, most
people have a job, a lot of people hate their boss.
You can kind of build from that very very low
baseline and find more common ground, and kind of you
can you can work towards a better understanding, Like maybe
(15:57):
you're not going to be best friends, but you can
potentially shift someone's harmful worldview by exposing them to new
ideas once they trust that you're not just there to
tell them they're wrong and stupid and bad. Really, look,
we were coming at this like I'm going to talk
to you like a person. I understand we see the
world differently, but like you know, I'm here to support you.
(16:17):
I'm here listening to you. Maybe you could listen to
what I have to say too, Maybe it might change
how you see things. And sometimes it works. Yeah, yeah, um,
you know what else works? Kim blowing shut up? Well okay,
alleged allegedly um minecraft. Yeah, I was gonna say cap ads,
(16:41):
cap ads, m ads and services. Um, but I like
your answer better. So let's just let's just let's just
roll out with that material support, right. Like another concrete
(17:03):
example there, the Birmingham DSA has been very active in
fundraising and showing up and just providing support for the
miners and and the people on strike. And this is
not necessarily a population of people that like the idea
of socialism, whatever idea of it is that they hold,
because Fox News and rusal In Barre are big cultural
(17:24):
stand bias there like whatever they think socialism is, and
then have a bunch of socialists show up and just
practice solidarity and mutual aiding practice socialism, and they're like, oh,
these guys are great, thank you for coming out and
things like that, where it's like, I feel like so
much of a radical politics in various you know, various tendencies.
There's just like a branding problem, and there's a propaganda
(17:47):
problem on the right wing, and the main sture media
doesn't tell anybody what anything means. Like, yeah, that's a
broader conversation, right, But yeah, I felt for a while
like one of the things that leftist organized just need
to get better at doing is being willing to like
drop names when they're not productive. Like, Okay, maybe these people,
(18:08):
because of the media environment, they've grown up and are
never gonna want to consider themselves socialists, But if they
are willing to organize together and support the efforts of
other working people to organize together against the capital holding class,
like then okay, Like what is it? Why do you
need them to like start quoting Carl Marx or is
it just cool that you've you've got them doing what
(18:29):
they like? Yeah? I that makes a lot of sense
to me that, like, yes, some that you can get
a lot of these people on board with again, pretty
radical things if you're if you're kind of approaching it
from within their world, from within, like I'm not trying
to talk to you about burning down the system. I'm
trying to talk to you about how you get what
you need. And it just so happens that how you
(18:49):
get what you need um is taking the system on
in a very direct way. I mean, so many ideas
that are painted as radical just like aren't like that's
normal people caring for him, like it is like community
care and common sense. It's just been politicized to this
insane extent, and even it's like, oh sorry, I'm just
(19:12):
like even like a lot a lot of the tenants
of mutual aid you can even see pop up in
a lot of like church communities as well, at least
like at least like smaller you know, closer knit like
communities that are actually based around helping each other at
least I was. I've observed that and a lot of
my time traveling across the States. Yeah, absolutely, that's a
huge part of it. Like the church is the only
mutual aid option in so many like smaller and more
(19:33):
ice li rural communities or just communities where the church
is a big deal, Like there's always ways to chip
away these institutions and eventually hopefully burned them down right
without alienating people and making them feel like you're coming
in and telling them everything you believe is wrong and
actually and making the mistakes. And of these folks, I'm
sure they believe things that are absolute garbage, and I
(19:53):
would never everybody, you know, like there's you know, but
there's there's just covering This strike in particular has really
just taught me a lot about the gray areas in between,
not in like I wish you watched a liberal way,
but just in a way of like, how do you
relate to normal fucking people who see the world differently
but are in ultimately the same struggle as you, Like,
(20:16):
maybe I could, I mean going down there. The only
time I've been around that many Trump supporters was like
at protests where I was yelling at them, or like
at my family dinners. So I wasn't, you know, I
wasn't expecting to make friends, But then I did, And
I think hopefully we've we've shifted each other's perspectives a
(20:36):
little bit in a way that's beneficial. I don't know,
it's been, it's been interesting. Yes, talking to people really
is a lot different than tweeting at them. Yeah, as
a rule, don't tweet would be my recommendation to people.
Never never talk to your neighbors and be nice to
(20:56):
people when you buy coffee or food from them, and
amazed what happens, and yeah, tell your neighbors. Hey, I'm
taking my phone down to the river to throw it in.
Can I take your phone with me? Can we just
all throw our phones in the river? Um, yeah, if
you want to. If you're gonna start at being the
weird neighbor, it's a strong start. Look, we've already killed
(21:16):
the water system, so it's fine, like just right in
the river with the car batteries, you know, they're The
thing I love about our show is just the hope,
is the incredibly hope injected optimism that we start an
end every episode with. But no, I mean, like me, like, yeah,
the more people you know in your community, especially people
who are like working class, you know, when bad stuff
(21:39):
starts happening, the more people you know the better, Because
that's I'm guessing a lot of a lot of these
people who are like you know, like like like like
old like old union workers. They have a lot of
like physical skills, like like they know how to do
a whole bunch of stuff, and it might be worth
getting to know some of those people, even if you
know where you live, Like, yeah, they'll probably say something
(22:02):
not great at least for you know, the first bit.
But once you know, I have a lot of family
and like a rural area of Alberta, and like, yeah,
my my family is like pretty gay. Um So you know,
once you're in close to the people, yeah, they're they're
gonna say something that's maybe not great. But once they
get to like know you and really be like, oh,
like you're another person. They like people. Actually, you know,
(22:23):
people want to be around other people, and they'll even
change the way they talk to be like oh yeah,
maybe this isn't the best way to hang out around
people because it's going to drive people away. So yeah,
I'll change the way I say some things because like
it turns out people actually, like a lot of a
lot of folks just kind of want to make their
lives a bit better and that's really their main focus. Yeah,
(22:45):
it's hard to not to do that, and it's it's
it's just this matter of like so much of what
um so much of what kind of the way that
discourse happens online has poisoned aspects of active is M
is in like making it difficult for people to relate
(23:05):
in that way without feeling like, well, okay, but if
I can't get them on board with all of these
other things, like I can't talk with them or whatever,
like because they're because they don't agree with you like
this and this, like we can't organize like the purity
of ideology. Yeah, Like I feel like most people who
aren't terminally online don't even necessarily have like a specific
ideology not yeah yeah right, Like there's just stuff that
(23:29):
they have learned or they have decided that is true
about the world. They just kind of go with it
and they'll interrogated all the time, and you can like
those are people you can talk to and maybe ship,
like I've done it with my dad, Like I've seen
it happen with some of these conservative coal minor folks.
Like something as small as being able to humanize, like like, okay,
if you're talking about something, oh like, well, the thing
(23:51):
you said like that really upset Joey and you like Joey,
so like maybe think about that, and they'll probably be
chiller because like, oh, well that's you know, it's Joey.
I can't don't want to be a dick to them.
If we can just find a way to enact that
on a pray broad scale, life would be a lot
better for a lot of people. Yeah, it's this. It's
this dichotomy between a lot people want to own the
(24:13):
folks they see as like being against them or being
on the other side. But also people don't want to
be a dick to people that like they like, you
don't want to feel like you're a dick. So if
you if you lean more into the weird in opposition,
then you're going to trigger the well I want to
I want to make the person who disagrees with me
(24:34):
angry side of the brain. But if you can lean
into the like, hey, like we can get along like
and I and and maybe you don't want to feel
like an asshole if we get along, then I don't know,
that's a productive place to to continue conversations from and
a good way to shift people. I think. And then
when you're and then when your area floods because of
severe rain and storms, that we have people that can help. Yeah,
(24:57):
it's the importance of interacting with people in person like offline,
which is like obviously more difficult to do because we're
still trying to depend Yeah, like their caveat, caveat, caveat,
but like it's so much easier to talk to someone
and kind of like see the world you shift, or
even to humanize yourself to someone who is inclined to
not thinking of you as someone worth talking to, Like, yeah,
(25:19):
as long as it's not you're not putting yourself in danger,
like there's yeah, obviously I'm a blond lady, you know.
But yeah, still we're not talking about like, oh, you
have to go be friendly to people who want to
murder you because your trance. No, it's about No, we're
not saying that. But most of these people don't think
that maybe they have some regressive attitude or or they'll
(25:40):
use the word gay to mean something, you know, not cool,
and you'd be like, hey, you don't have to to
be like, hey, you know, I'm you know, I'm actually
gay jan or maybe don't hope that maybe you do
depending on the situation, to be like yeah, maybe maybe
there's other words that we can use for this, because whatever, yeah,
and and you can shift people into a your alliance, um,
(26:01):
just by becoming a human in their eyes and also
letting them become a human in your eyes, um, which
is necessary. The other option is not a pleasant one.
So I would prefer the option where more people grow
to see each other as human and worth supporting. Right,
I know there's better tactic to me. Yeah, I know.
There's this argument where like, no one is like I
(26:22):
shouldn't have to educate you, I shouldn't have to put
the time into to shift you, and like that is valid,
that's fair, Like you shouldn't have to but ideally know, yeah,
but if you want to that change to happen, it's
probably not going to happen unless she puts an effort
in because they're probably not gone. They think they're fine.
And I don't know, there's a bunch of ship that
(26:43):
you shouldn't have to do that we're also all gonna
have to do Like I shouldn't we I shouldn't have
to say, hey, guys, maybe we don't kill the ocean.
Maybe killing the ocean is a bad idea, Like I
shouldn't have to no one should have to say that,
but we do not top not please the fact that
(27:04):
you shouldn't have to do something. Also doesn't mean that
like the thing doesn't need to be done. And obviously
I don't think that the primary onus on speaking to
let's say, the kind of increasingly radicalized white, lower middle
and middle class. I don't think that falls primarily on
on people of color, on on the LGBT community. It
(27:24):
falls on people like you and make Kim. You know, Yeah,
but it's still has to be done. Like it's a
thing that needs to be done. And I'm not saying, hey,
you out there, who you know, left where you grew
up in rural Alabama because someone was going to fucking
murder you and you had to get to a place
where you could not deal with that. I'm not saying
you need to go rolling back to Alabama. Um, but
(27:48):
it's good that people are talking and working with and
trying to build connections with folks out there and change
the nature of kind of aspects of the culture and
make things better, because that needs to be done. We
can't just be like, well fuck some of those people. Yeah,
and we get that. That is definitely easier if you
are like one of the bros. If you are you know,
(28:09):
a bigger sis adjacent dude, that is that is of
course going to make things easier. Yeah, I mean when
you think about like that's kind of the text, that's
the right word. But the fact that you do feel
comfortable and you're you're safe and you're not under a
threat in those spaces because of who you are, like
as like a white sister or even a white says
(28:30):
lady like you like the price you pay for that
is making it easier for everyone else to feel that too,
like exactly, like that's your job, other people's jobs to survive,
and you can be the one that pushes the boundaries
on these things. So when someone says something not great,
you can kind of call them out in like a
browish way, and they can respond to that a lot
better than, you know than a lot of other people
(28:51):
who they don't know, you know, screaming at them in
a no context scenario. We're like, oh, like, oh, you don't.
I'm like, I'm a pretty lady. You don't want to
make me upset by being wooed that exactly, yeah, Like
you shouldn't. You should see this thing as rude and
not okay. Like the amount of men who have apologized
me down there for swearing it's so funny. Yeah, man,
(29:11):
my dude, I live in Philadelphia. But that's cute. But
if I could dis harness any of that like chivalrous
whatever rose patriarchal viewpoint, like hey, apply this to being
cool to my trans friends are like not being rude
to anyone else, Like sure, I'm down. Yeah, we don't
take collingly to miss gendering around these parts. Yeah, for
(29:44):
a lot of people at least, like you know, when
I worked at like smaller workplaces, you know, where it's
like a small business where I know the owner. Even
if I mean if some other employees want to unionize,
the prospect is always kind of more weird or challenging
because you know, it's a smaller business. Maybe it's like
connected to like a larger, you know, larger overall industry.
You know, like when I was like when I when
I was like a park or instructor, right, I had
(30:04):
discussions with other with other like employees about doing you know,
like a Parker instructors union type thing. But but it's
it's it's hard when there's there's like not many of
you or like you know the owner. What would you
say is like good good ways to at least get
get that conversation going among other employees and then you know,
like similar similar examples from other stuff for people who
deal with like smaller workplaces that aren't you know, like
(30:25):
a co worker. They're not working for the Amazon or anything.
You know, it's it's more like small local stuff, right, So,
like the most important basic building block of of all
this is one on one conversation that's organizing. Right, And
even if you just work with like three or four
other people and maybe unionizing and a formal structure doesn't
necessarily make sense or it seems like it might be
(30:45):
too much of a headache, you're still you know, like
a group of workers coming together is still a union.
It doesn't matter what the n l r B has
to say about it. And you you have shared interests
and share challenges, and there's things that work you probably
want to change. So even coming together and discussing that
through coworkers, Like, there's no law that says you have
to be in a union. If you want to get
some ship done, you can march on your boss at
(31:06):
WW style and make them and demand a meeting. You
can make a petition, you can do public pressure campaigns,
like all of the things when all of them, but
a lot of the tools that we see organized labor
engaging in and union is engaging in those are those
are available to everyone else too. It's easier if you're
within that framework because you have that firepower behind you
and you have maybe some legal protections, but just as workers,
(31:29):
you know, I guess it's more like the IWW solidarity
uneuse a multiply where like we didn't like we don't
need to do no stinking badges like we're a union
because we say we're a union. We're going to take
control of things in our own way. Like you see
this in UM. I'm trying to say, I think what's
it called diversity threast there's a there's a threast shop
and I think Richmond, Virginia where workers just like they
(31:51):
weren't being treated properly. I think it was like a
like a queer community space that wasn't living up to
its values due to actions by management, and so they
just put a letter on the doors that we're not
coming to work until you fix this. Here are clear demands,
here's what we need. Here you go figure it out.
Like I don't think they're in a formal union, but
they're acting collectively and that's something that is totally available
(32:13):
that to everyone as long as you're in a workplace.
If you're independent contractor like me and probably some of you,
that sucks and it's harder, but you can always find
your people and you can always there's always options, right,
Like you don't have to just join at union. You
don't have to be a teamster to get shipped done. Yeah.
I think you know when you were saying that, I
was going through my past experience as a place like that,
(32:35):
and I'm like, yeah, we we kind of did do
some of that stuff to varying degrees of success. Sometimes
it works out well, sometimes it doesn't work out so well. Um,
but yeah, I mean there was definitely a while where
we did that did definitely make them make some decent
changes kind of based on on that model. Yeah, it's
kind of a shift of perception where like you were
just doing this because this is because you're a worker,
(32:55):
and like we need to do this. But if you
just take a step back and think about it's like
this is a labor at s and we're a union
of workers. Like even just that little shift where it's
like it's it's always us against them, but look as
us as a little as a group, as a collective
against this manager, against this exploitative practice. I think that
has a little bit of power and a little bit
of energy because your religion now and I'm still I
(33:18):
think maybe it makes you feel a little less alone
and also like and like you know, concerned activity is
a legally protective yard too, so like there are some
bits and pieces of labor law that are useful in
these situations too, if you have a nerdy friend who
would like to read about them for you. All right, well,
(33:39):
I think that's going to do it for us here
and it could happen here. Um until next time, remember,
um you fuck it organized? And where can people find
Kim Kelly online if we want to send angry tweets?
Oh well just try me, buddy, um grim Kim because
(34:01):
my college radio DJ name will never die. And uh
you can if you are thus inclined, you can pre
order my book. But like hell, the Untold History of
American Labor on the internet hopefully not Amazon, hopefully not. Yeah.
I mean, if you do like, thank you, but there's
other places that are better. You do you want people
to send you a bunch of random knives, Kim knives.
(34:24):
I mean I wouldn't. We've had a lot of luck
with that in the past. I like nice that, like skincare.
I like loose leaf tea. I contain multitudes. Really, send
Kim a loose leaf T skincare knife, one of those,
one of those exfoliating knives with a with a T
infuser in the in the hilt. Somebody make that great.
(34:45):
Somebody that sounds like that sounds like the next behind
the bastards merch. Yeah, the T knife. Yeah, well, we'll
put that out after we get finished where We've got
a very exciting Black Friday product this year, which is
a male to male uh let's adapter. People say you
shouldn't do it. They say it causes electrocution and fires
and death. And I think those people are cuts um
(35:07):
by our mail to mail adapter show the woke establishment
that you won't be you won't be chained. It could
happen here as a production of pool Zone Media. Well
more podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool
zone media dot com, or check us out on the
(35:27):
I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen
to podcasts you can find sources for It could happen here,
Updated monthly at cool Zone media dot com slash sources.
Thanks for listening.
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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