The Japanese Anarchists Part 2

We're once again joined by Margaret Killjoy, host of the new podcast Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff, to look at the syndicalist vs pure anarchist divide that shattered the Japanese anarchist movement.

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
I guess I'm starting this one. Hi, welcome to take
it happen here. It's a show. If you're listening to
this episode, you probably listen to the last one. You
know what it's about. Yeah, please do don't start. I mean,
I guess you could start with this one because this
one is sort of wildly different than the last one.
But that's when we're rewriting it so they a'll survive. Yeah,

(00:29):
I mean, I don't. No one gets executed this episode. Yes,
that is that is a win. And the cosmists come,
The Russian cosmists come, and they resurrect at least Knikofumico
um the rest, give or take whatever. Maybe the children
could be resurrected. That's how I would prioritize it in
that order. That makes sense. Yeah. Um. And that voice

(00:55):
you're hearing is Margaret Killjoy, host of Cool, host of
CPW d C. Yes, Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff,
Cool medio podcast that is launching its first episode on
May second, and episodes are every Monday and Wednesday. I
did it? Okay? Who that's true? All the things are
true except the cosmist part. Yeah, the cosmists, I don't know.

(01:17):
Maybe maybe maybe they'll still pull it off all right,
as as if yet, So we're gonna go back a
little bit. Um. We ended last episode with everyone sort
of dead. Um. But the reason that also didn't wipe
out the the anarchist movement was that there's that does
another sort of wing of it, and the other wing
of it is in in nineteen eighteen, labor movement in

(01:42):
Japan re emerges, and it re emerges because there's the war,
like Japan fights to over one, and there's just like
mass inflation and deprivation, and so even though striking is
like unbelievably illegal, people do it anyways because the underdative
is just starving to death. And so there's this reformist
trade union that eventually becomes Japanese Confederation of Labor that

(02:03):
swells and numbers to about thirty thousand people, and actually
mentioned like thirty thousand people is like, it doesn't sound
like that big for a union. I think this is
the biggest any union is going to get in this period.
I think this union might get slightly bigger than that,
but like, yeah, most of the unions don't crack twenty
k because the size of the Japanese industrial working class

(02:25):
isn't that big and also the amount of oppression is unbelievable.
But you know, having having thirty thousand people in your
union means that your union is now the site of
Japanese intra left conflict, which is wonderful. People there is
actually like people up. Yeah, it's great. There's like, you know,

(02:48):
there's a period where everyone kind of gets along, like
like all of there was like everyone of the Japanese
Left knows each other, like all they're all dating each other,
Like this is true, Like you know, we've been talking
about all the interest stating each other. The anarchist, the
communists all dating each other, like the reformists are also
dating each other, Like they're all sort of like everyone
knows each other, and for like a bit they're sort
of able to get along. Ah. But with with with

(03:12):
the the Japanese Confederation of Labor. This last for like
one year, and the anarchists and the Bolsheviks have split
over the question of the USSR. After the anarchists published
like Emma Goldman writing about how it's bad actually, and
suddenly these two factions are like yeah, these factions are
like fighting tooth and nail for control of like the

(03:32):
entire left because like these these these groups are like
the anarchists and the communists are in every social movement,
like they're they're in there in labor, they're in the
feminist movements, there in this movement they're like we haven't
really talked about, but it's going on the background of
all of this, which is the burak Kuman liberation movement
on the burk Kuman or this like this like hereditary class.
I'm pronouncing that extremely badly and I apologize, um, but

(03:54):
the hereditary class and like the old fuel system, which
is like technically abolished in the ladies and hundreds, but
like discrimination against them continues. It's it's very similar to
like like the untouchable like touchables in India. And so
they have this sort of movements and the anarchists back it,
and the communists like waffle on it because the Bolsheviks,

(04:15):
it takes to like a while before they're like no, no, no,
We're we're fully backing this now. And so yeah, I
mean that gets wrapped up in this this giant battle
for the control of the left, and the battle for
the control of the left leads to like one of
history's most common alliances which is Bolsheviks allying with reformists
who like also favor like centralized control to fight the anarchists.

(04:36):
You don't want centralized control. Yeah, there there are new things, yea.
And in labor movement, this this plays out in this
battle over like where power is supposed to be in
a union confederation. So you know, the question basically is
it supposed to be in the federation bureaucracy like the
people are like the sort of high level of the

(04:56):
bureaucracy it sself, or is it supposed to be in
the unions who are like the part of federation. And
and this has real consequences, you know, like in a
lot of sort of centralized union federations, like the central
union bureaucracy of the people who decide if you can
strike or not m hm. And you know, this is
extremely useful to both reformers bureaucrats who want to make
sure nobody goes on strike because they have their deal
with the capitalists and they don't want to refolution happen.

(05:18):
And it's also very useful for the Bolsheviks who want
to make sure they can purge anyone who they don't like,
and also want to make sure the Union movement just
like an extension of their politics. And so there's this
huge battle and it ends with basically like both the
Bolsheviks and the reformists pull out of the Union. Whoa,
so the anarchists win, Oh yes, sort of, Well they

(05:38):
do appear in victory. There's like nothing les Yeah, well
it's not there's nothing. So like twenty tho members go
with the reformists, like twelve thou go with the Bolsheviks,
about eight thousand go with the anarchists. So it's not
the best, but they rebuild and and into this phrase
steps arguably Japan's greatest anarchist theorists of this period, Hottes Shoeso.

(06:02):
And this guy is a character like he's he's he's
barely known in Japan. I mean, there was a sort
of like renaissance in how does shoes a scholarship when
this one guy named John Krupp wrote this book called
how to Shoeso? How does Shuzo? And Pure Anarchism and
Interwar Japan, which is a mouthful of a title. But
I'm just gonna keep plugging this because like this is
the book that made me an anarchist. Like this is

(06:23):
like I checked this book out from my library and
I read it and I was like, oh my god,
I'm an anarchist now. So yeah, he has he has
like A because she has a wild story. Um. He's
born in He's born in Japan in December six and
he sort of like bounces around like different manual labor
jobs in Tokyo, and like at one point he he

(06:45):
he wants to be like A. He tries to be
like I don't know if it's a long shot. He
wants to be like a sailor. So he gets on
a boat and he's gonna be a sailor, and then
he after like one sale ride to Taiwan, he immediately
decides he doesn't want to be a sailor anymore. So
he just gets off the boat and Eason doesn't come back.
I feel like that's what I would do if I decided,
Oh yeah, like that job, especially like the nineteen like twenties,

(07:07):
that jobs, he's awful. Yeah, You're like, I want adventure,
and then you're like, oh, adventure means bad things happen.
It's like, I mean, I I guess I understand why
all these people are anarchists, because like that is a
terrible job. But yeah, so she so winds up sort
of just like wandering around Taiwan. And one of the

(07:29):
things that happens when he's wanting around Taiwan, by the way,
is a Japanese colony at this point, um okay. And
while he's wandering around Taiwan, he becomes a Christian and
he like goes to school, it's like a theologian, but
he drops out, but then he somehow still becomes a
pastor because I don't know, this guy's career is wild. No,
she's always not like a normal pastor. He rapidly starts

(07:49):
pissing off like everyone around him because he's like every
all of his sermons are just him and taggetizing rich
people and preaching this like very very left wedged in
the Gospel to be like the read the Bible. Yeah yeah, yeah,
it's incredible that there's a great quote from Haweshizu and
Pierre anarchist of it Into War Japan about his time
as a pastor, from like someone who was there, it

(08:10):
was Pastor Hottes sermons were superbs, so much so that
I thought it was a shame that more people were
not there to hear them. It was like the Bible
talking in the spirit of pure socialism. And one of
my friends admired Pastor Hottes so much that the asid
to celebrate his marriage. Yeah, and you know this like

(08:31):
this does not make around. Yeah yeah, he say, Well,
it's funny because he starts like as a Christian, right,
but like he just like progressively keeps getting more and
more left wing and keeps realizing that like, okay, so
there's the Kingdom of God in heaven, right, but like
what if we did that here? And like as he's
getting like as he's pissing off more of the church,

(08:51):
um and as like they're they're they're in fighting, gets bigger,
he's becoming just more and more of an anarchist. And
by the end he just like gets up. He gets
booted out by his church and he's just like, okay,
I'm anarchist propagandist now, and sow four he just like
leaves and he's like, well, I'm anarchists now. Um, and
Shizo becomes what's known as a pure anarchist. And this
is something that is like entirely unique to Japan that

(09:13):
like there there's nothing there's this doesn't exist anywhere else. Um,
and this is different than like basically every other anarchist
theorist and movement in Japan until this point has been
like something you can find parallels with other anarchist movements
around the globe, Like there are nihilists and lots of
countries as egoists everywhere like their cynicalists literally in every
country has ever existed, and they mostly sort of believe

(09:34):
the same things. Um, you know, and you get some
like like oh yessaki is like combination of egoism and
syndicalism is like it's cool, but like I like that idea. Yeah, yeah,
it's a good idea, but it's also not like it's
like he's he's not he's not like he's not the
first person to ever do this right. And like the
japaneseynicalist movement is is built in the molde of like
the French syndicalists in the CGT, which is this big union.

(09:57):
H actually they're still around today there so in like
the very early eighteen hundreds they were there. They were
sort of a narcost Nicolas union and like nighte to
know six they have this famous charter about like anarchists,
but then they go reformist and they like they vote
for World War We're one and now they're famous for
there's been like twelve things that probably could have been
a revolution in France if the c GT had ever
a single time went to the barricades. And they never

(10:19):
do Whi's never ever, that's like their whole thing, Like
like they sat out by sixty eight, Like that's yeah,
this union. Yeah, and they sat out by sixty eight.
It's like it's incredible, but you know it's the But
you know, in like nineteen know six, right, the Japanese
are looking at like cyniccals looking at this like oh
my god, this just this union has like millions of

(10:41):
people in it, like it's enormous. It's a cynicals union.
So yeah, yeah, and like you know, they they the
Jamans anarchists do is sort of their standard cynicalist things
like that they're building up democratic unions. They're like working
cords in general, strike the season mused their production. They're
like fighting for a society or production is run by
workers themselves. Blah blah blah bla I should blah blah

(11:02):
blah blah. That's actually it's it's cool. It's fine, but
pure anarchism is not that I'm dying to know what
pure anarchism is. This new anarchism just dropped. I'm excited.
It's it's kind of a it's it's a version of
her communism. But like what if you like really really
rigorously applied in arcole communism and and this is this

(11:23):
is the thing. It doesn't exist anywhere else because everywhere,
like in the West and in Latin America, like syndicalism
and anarchist and anarcho communism just like fuse to the
point where like they're not really They're like, but there's
not really they're not really separate tendency like nobody's written
in archo communist theory, and like a hundred years like
like they start, you know, they've basically ceased to be
separate tendencies. But in Japan, the cyndicicaliss of the and

(11:47):
comps like fighting it out to the death, and this
this produces pure anarchism and it rules can talk about
what it is because it's both wonderful and incredibly silly
at the same time. So okay, So so to understand
what they're arguing about, because this is this is this
this causes like a huge fracture in the annext movements. Um,

(12:08):
I think we need to sort of like go into
like the vulgar barkist conception of class structure that's kind
of shared by the cyndicalists. So okay, okay, so you're you're,
you're okay. The important thing about this is that, like
this doesn't work at your pan like the vulgar theory
of like marcutis class structure, right, is that like, okay,
so you're supposed to have the great industrial proletariat, Like

(12:28):
it's that's supposed to become a majority of the population.
It's supposed to be unified and organized by like the
discipline of the factory system, and the entire world is
supposed to reduce to two classes, like the borgewisi and
the proletariat, like one class of people who have nothing
to sell but their labor. One class of people who
exist purely too like extract wealth from people because like
you who you entirely supportless of my owning things. And

(12:51):
you know, eventually these are supposed to, like if you
if you read your communist manifesto, Eventually these two classes
are supposed to like meet themselves in like a final
conflict or the proletariat defeats it's called yeah yeah, yeah,
and you know, the proporteria defeats them, and then they
abolish the conditions of their own existence as a class
and you get stateless class lists. But in this society,

(13:12):
it's like a free association of workers. And this is
what communism is. And famously this never happened. Yeah, what
about the immortal science. Yeah, you know they well they
want the wortal science. Yeah, this, this is the This
is the problem the immortal science is that one, instead
of unifying the industrial proletariat, capitalism like divides it and

(13:33):
just sort of like like literally spatially like kicks them
into suburbs, and you can get this sort of like
the system where instead of like unifying everyone into one class,
everyone is now this like completely alienated like boomer living
in a suburb, even if it's still work in a factory.
And the other problem is that there's never just two classes.
And this is a problem that like, yeah, all the

(13:55):
other ones are our enemies. Yeah, this worried too, you know,
but this is a real problem, right because like the
like the marxis run into this in Russia where it's
like okay, so we we did our thing, we did
our urban poultry and revolution, but like there's all these
peasants and they don't like us because we keep taking
their granted gunpoint and but but you know that you
have you have this one problem and and popular, yeah,

(14:17):
it goes great, right if not nothing bad ever happens,
they don't famously have to kill enormal members of these people.
But then like you know, there's something weird happens, which
is in China, Stalin managed to get like the entire
or like the entire urban Chinese working class like builitic
working class killed, and so Mao has to like make
a revolution with peasants, and so you know, peasants become

(14:38):
the sort of like you know, this this sort of
like this, this is what the actual refolution strtuct of
communism wants up being. Like from the China Columbia, it's
these peasants. But like you know, okay, so you're your
three of the industrial politariats already down the toilet. And
this is what Shuzo is reacting to. Like he looks
at Japanese society and there's like five people who you
wage labor. Mostly there's this inor was like fourteen million

(15:01):
people who are tenant farmers who are like trying to
support their families and these like tiny plots of rented land.
But you know, and like in center Marxist theories like well, okay,
these people will inevitably be absorbed into capitalism, right, but
they will be driven by competition or whatever to the market.
But like they're not, it's not happening. They're just they're
sitting there and they're still just really poor in paying
their landlords. And yeah, yeah, well you just gotta wait

(15:25):
for all of Japan to be like annihilated. Yeah yeah, yeah,
it's it's it's it's going great. But and it's also
like there's all these other like classes to you, like
there's there's these classes of like there's just like petty
traders for example, or like like low level like really
low level government officials like like you know, you're like
like a clerk for example, who just don't fit into

(15:47):
this sort of class schem at all, Like if if
marks some things about like like small like I don't know,
people who like cut wood and then go into a
town and sell it. Like they're like, well, there's can
these people are prete Bogwa like their reactionaries, and there's
this whole history of like anarchists organizing people like this
who marks just sort of like steer out, Like Bolivia
has this where like anarchists organized these like these indigenous

(16:10):
like they're not really these indigenous artisans whose things like
they go to market and they saw their craft. And
the Marxists were just like, how do we care about
the people? Like why yeah, workers, And it always seems
like the better I don't know, whenever I was presented
with the basic analysis of like, okay, we've got the
proletariat who have terrible lives and factories, and then you
have the lump and proletariat who refuse that kind of

(16:30):
work and are like beggars and thieves and people doing
work outside of the traditional system or whatever. And then
you have the petty bourgeoisie who are like you know,
owned stores or artisans or whatever. And then you have
the bourgeoisie over it. And it is always funny to
me because I look at I'm like, well, clearly, the
only ones that would be worth being would be lumping
proletariat or pet like they're the only ones to get

(16:52):
to have any fun like, yeah, you know, and I think, like, like,
this is a problem that that chooso sees. And I'm
gonna read part of um Krupt's book about his solution
to this because I think it's really interesting. Um. Given
the failure of the available methods of class analysis to
capture the subtleties of Japan's social structure, how To developed

(17:13):
the notion of the propertyless masses as an alternative concept
of the proletariat. That the propertyless masses was a wide
ranching term which encompassed tenant farmers, small traders, petty officials, artisans,
and even wage laborers when they are prepared to forsake
their preoccupation with narrowly defending advantages that accompanied their urban
lifestyle and we're ready to throw in their lot with

(17:34):
the other oppressed strata. Yeah, that makes sense. That's just
the you know, it's the like or's just the haves
and have nots. It's like, okay, well it's it's kind
of but but there's there's a crucial difference here, which
is that like, okay, so the other like the really
big thing about the pure anarchists that they don't believe
in class struggle, okay, and the reason why they don't

(17:57):
believe in class struggle is that they think that, Okay,
so they look at the history of the union movement, right,
and it's like, okay, so has the union movement ended capitalism?
It's like no, so like okay, what what does it
actually do? And the answer is it gets people slightly
more money under capitalism, which is nice too, yeah, which
which is nice. But it's also like shooes so like
adopted tube that there's no other Japanese anarchists who who

(18:18):
has this beta for It's like he he compares it
to like people fighting inside of like a bandit gang,
where it's like, okay, so if you have you have
like fight, like the bosses of the bandit gang are
obviously exploiting like the lower level people in the bandit gang.
But you know, I even even if even if the
lower level people in this bandit gang like take over,
they're not actually gonna stop being a bandit gang, right,

(18:39):
It's just that the the distribution of where the bandit
gang wealth is going changes. And this is a big
thing for for for the purannicist because the puor anchists
are you know, they're there looking at the industrial working
classes like this is tiny and they're they're all exploiting
the countryside. Hm. And so because of that, like they
they look at this, they look at the union movement,

(19:00):
and they look at it at like class struggle, like
classical TM like class struggle, and they're like, well, this
doesn't cause a revolution. All this does is just like
sort of reorients like who's in power inside of Uh
that's what the Bolsheviks did, right, Yeah, But but it's
it's not just what the bulls they applies to the Bolsheviks,
but like it's also like there's analysis of what a
union is that you're like class struggles just defending your

(19:22):
position uder capitalism, but you're also fighting very specifically narrowly
for your class. Right, So if you're like a factory worker, right,
you're fighting for you and the other factory workers. You're
not fighting for like I don't know, like a tenant farm.
But you're not you know, even fighting from like for
like the guy down the tree to BIG's bread. It's
like you're you know, the these these things that are
like that are but they look like instruments of class struggles,

(19:44):
like your workers council, your unions or soviets like they
don't actually get rid of class. It's just now another
class has power. And it doesn't matter if it's sort
of like this is what they're argument is like, it
doesn't matter if it's like democratic, It doesn't matter if
it's like you know, like they're they're there's no difference
in how the actual eventually the class and amics will
play out. It doesn't matter if it's like you know,

(20:05):
like Lenin making like Stalin making himself dictator, or you
have a bunch of democratic like Soviets, because they're both
so intrimented class power and they're both sort of just
going to reproduce this, this whole system. And yeah, and
so they have this thing that they counterpose, which is
like class struggle is just about what stuff is happening

(20:26):
inside the system. But that's different revolution, which is like
destroying this the system entirely. And this is where you
get into his stuff about the division of labor, which
is I think it's really interesting because it I think
this this sphere of pure anarchism got to a bunch
of critiques of stuff that people have gotten to now,
but they got to it in where Okay, so she's

(20:48):
like one of his big things is that like the
division of labor is inherently exploitative because it like it
destroys sort of rural community living and it replaces it
with the centralization of expertise and centralization of power. And
he also thinks that like science is like a capitalist
engine that's used to like create the division of labor,
and then it's used to create like mechanization, and it's

(21:08):
used to create like labor exploitation. Yeah, this that sounds
like modern A lot of like stuff that I read
more modern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, except this is like they're
doing this in like like nineteen twenties seven. Else is
a capitalist engine of exploitation products and surface the podcast

(21:29):
Industrial Complex, It's true, and we're back with more things
that are exploitative and the theoretically theoretically yes, yes, but

(21:50):
we we we we have we have to get through.
We have to get through the last exploitative thing, which
is the thing. I talked a bit about this earlier.
But like the Puranicists argued that like cities inherently are
this concentration of wealthy resources and power, and so like
farmers and workers need to work together to destroy all
forms of power, including cities. And this sounds a lot

(22:12):
like primitive. Is yeah, it does, although you know, they
wouldn't necessarily be like wrapping the farmers, and I think
I think primitives might be the wrong term. But it's
definitely a lot of like the anti tech stuff, and
well it's it's interesting, Okay. So they have they have
like they threat this needle where so like there are
people in this period who want to just go back

(22:33):
to pure rural grarianism and don't want their to technology,
and the pure anarchists are like, no, we still want technology,
but we don't want the division of labor. So they're like,
we like our raping machines so we don't have to
work as much more more farming. We just don't want
everyone to live in apartments. Yeah, I mean even the
reaping machine. I don't know, Like it's kind of unclear

(22:55):
to me how this is exactly supposed to work, because
like we'll get into this. I guess we can just
get into this now, which is it, Like, okay, so
they really don't like the division of labor because they
think the division of labor like, well, okay, they have
they have like there's like three critiques of but one
is that like when you have a division of labor,
labor becomes like mechanized industrialized. And when that happens, um

(23:19):
labor because like it gets reduced to just like a
cog you put in a machine m hm. And they
say this is like this is like an inherent like
thing that happens with labor specializations. You just end up
like being a person who makes you want repetitive moving
a factory over and over again, like you're not free
because of this um. And they also argue that like
specialization means that people only care about like labor that

(23:41):
they do and so this gives you like an identity
that that divides workers from one sector, like say if
you're if you're you know, you're like a coal miner, right,
your daily experience is so utterly different than a baker.
And it's not just like your experience, it's like it's
like your knowledge is different. The other person is not gonna,
like baker is not going to understand what you're doing. Um.

(24:04):
And you keep wanting to argue against this political position
that no, no, that misunderstands the nature of specialization at all,
you know. But then I'm like, all right, I can't
go back and convince these people. Yeah, yeah, I think
like I think, okay, this is I'm gonna, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna put on my my, my marks, my like

(24:28):
weird left calm mars, noise and critique not a platform,
which is not they actually wanted as a platform, but
like I think it would have been a great critique
and not a very good platform. Yeah, they're the platform. Yeah,
I mean I think I think there's there's the interesting
elements of it. Like they have this argument that like, okay,
so if if you have your like your your syndicalists,

(24:49):
like society right where Okay, so you have a bunch
of like you have a bunch of like coal miners,
you have a bunch of people who like make pots
and hands, but you need to coordinate your labor, okay
because because you you have you have like specialization, you
have branches of labor. And their argument is that, okay,

(25:10):
so well the city clues way you do this. You
have coordinating committees, right you you like elect a person
you like, send them to a coordinating council, and the
coordinating council like coordinates stuff. And she was just like,
well that's just gonna she those like things like that's
just gonna turn into a state. Like you're just gonna
create a permanent class, even even if you rotate people.
You're you're you're creating an administrative body that's gonna like
rebuild the state again. And yeah, like okay, like I

(25:35):
than this like shrugging gesture that the audience cans like yeah,
you know, yeah, I I don't, okay. So, like I
don't think he's right about like most of this, Like
I think he's sort of wrong about like almost all
of it. The thing the thing that's stuck with me,
so when I read this is like his specific critique
of syndicalism, which is that it maintains like the structure

(25:58):
of the old world. Because if you're a syndicalist and
your your society is based on unions running their workplaces,
then you've maintained the division of labor, but you've also
maintained like the basic like geographic, physical, technological, and organizational
structure of capitalism, like all of the like all of
that stuff is still in the same place, and you're

(26:19):
still sort of like going there to do your job.
And I think there is an interesting sort of like
like I think there's a genuine interesting critique there of yeah,
like how how do you make sure that you aren't
just sort of reproducing that stuff? And like like I mean,

(26:40):
I don't know, like the critique of why would you
want to build a society likes structured along the lines
of production, Like why why do you want to structure
your society around work? Like that's awful. I I like
that about the pure anarchists, where they were kind of like,
let's let's let's throw away the Marxist ship for a
minute and like just actually like figure out what we want,
and like, I I like that about it, But I

(27:04):
I dislike the idea of like, well it's it's it
would be my problem with syndicalism, and most of the
syndicalists I met believe in syndicalism as a method and
not an end result. Right, um, it's a way of
building workers power, not a way to create a society.
But but if syndicalists were like everyone must wake up
and go to their work job and then make eight widgets,

(27:25):
but it's collectively determined which widgets that you make, right,
like funk that. But also if it was like everyone
goes and wakes up and goes to their collective farm
and maybe we use raping machines and maybe we don't.
And it's just like I get so unexcited by It's
like one of the reasons that like a lot of
the like nitpicky branches of anarchism don't they interest me,
but I don't like subscribe to any of them, is

(27:47):
because I'm like, well, what if some people like this
ship some people like this ship like and you know,
maybe they're could be fucking different. Imagine that we could
have a plurality of economic models stems. But you know whatever, Um,
I'm now arguing with that people who I probably this
is interesting, Like, well, I don't know, because these guys

(28:08):
like they they have like the maoist thing going on,
where like they will like attack other leftist groups who
like don't like follow their line. And so this is
where this whole thing is wild, because it was one
of the other things, like the the pure anarchists are
like completely convinced that syndicalism is like a sort of

(28:29):
like well they think it's it's just like it's not
an anarchist thing. It's just like a tendency to labor movement.
And they also think that like it's basically like a
bastardized form of Marxism because they're not like entirely wrong
about either of those things. But yeah, except in a
different places and times. Yeah, but it's like the thing,
the thing that they have. But it like because they're
they're completely convinced that syndicalism will inevitably just like turn

(28:52):
into like Soviet communism. It's like it's incredibly silly. Um,
But like like this, you know, I like, on the
one hand, like they are kind of inventing a lot
of the sort of like like they're they're inventing a
lot of the sort of like some okay, some bad

(29:13):
arguments about like specialization and stuff, like like some anti
work stuff too, that like is going to be around later.
They're also inventing a lot of stuff that's like and
you know, initially this kind of like new theory doesn't
have this doesn't have an enormous effect. Um. In six,

(29:36):
the Federation of Black Youth or COCODA and has its
first public meeting, and they have a bunch of cool slogans.
The the slogans rolled they have the emancipation of workers
must be carried out by the workers themselves. We insist
on libertarian federation, destroy the political movement, get rid of
reject the Poltarian party, get rid of professional activists with

(30:00):
all oppressive laws and ordinances. That is an entirely based platform. Yeah, sweet,
it's it's good. Yeah. And you know there were things
despite the fact that it's called the Federation of Black Youth,
this is like not a youth. I mean, I mean
there's like youth in it, but like it's it's this
thing's backed by like remember those those printers unions that
I was talking about last episode that I was like, Hi,
you have like set up. So they're all heavily involved

(30:21):
in this um and they do a bunch of cool
labor stuff, like they get involved in, like, uh, there's
a bunch of tram worker strikes to get involved in.
The they're in this, uh the Japanese Musical Instrument Company strike,
which is like there's like over a thousand people on
strike for like over a hundred days, and there's there's
this great split where like so the leadership of the
union is Bolshevik, but like a bunch of the like

(30:44):
a bunch of the ordinary people in the union are
anarchists and so you have that there's there's like there's
this fun tension going around there. They're they're they're they're
doing the stuff. Um and then the anarchists form um
Zengoku Dieterrand, which is the All Japanese Libertarian Federation of
Labor Unions, which is a it's a federation of twenty
five unions. These are the Pierre anarchists that you're talking

(31:05):
about that are doing all this. So sorry at this
point they haven't split yet, okay, because it was like
this sounds like all the stuff that they said that
they don't want to do. Yeah, well, this is like
the other the other wild thing about this is that like, okay,
so the entirety of like of like Piannicis theory, right,
is about how like unions don't do revolutions and that
class struggle, but like they still do strikes, like they

(31:27):
still do all the normal stuff. It's kind of wild, Okay,
I kind of like that, yeah, you know, and like
and and this that that's sort of how they're able
to get along in this early period. And these unions like, okay,
so there's like a lot of Printers unions in this
because the Prints unions are just really anarchists. But there's
there's like there's a tenant farmers union. There's a lotch
of like rubber unions, and it grows to like fifteen

(31:48):
workers almost immediately, and yeah, they' they're doing to a
lot of cool stuff, like they they have they have
these huge demonstrations in supporter of SACO and fnzetti uh
to the US is killing for being narchists and also
Italians just like yeah, the one time anti Italian racism
was real and a hundred years ago, ship was real

(32:11):
different than it is now and it doesn't yeah yeah,
yeah yeah. And for for for one year, this like
this works great, you know, like the yeah that the
union's up to, like I think they get up to
like thirty thousand members, like it gets pretty big. But
then intense conflict between the syndicalists and the anarchac and

(32:33):
the pure anarchists breakout. And this gets so bad so
fast that like the International working Man's Association, which is
the like like the giant international like Federation of Cynicalist
Movements like sends them a letter that are like, hey,
cynicalist anarcro communists get along every literally everywhere else on earth.
Their Chilk. You guys like Chill and the anarcha communists

(32:56):
in Cocadoran. Uh. Their response is you are fighting quote
the Betrayer's opportunists and union imperialists in Zengoku Juran's ranks.
I can't have nice things. Ye know, it's great, it
gets better, it gets better. So they lose, yeah, because okay,

(33:19):
look in the conference, so uh Senoka Juran which is
the Union federation, like they have they have a conference,
they have the yearly conference, and there's just like giant
battle over like what the organizations platform is going to
be a thing that doesn't matter at all, except it's
a proxy ideological fight, and uh, both sides should start
screaming at each other. And I'm gonna read this description

(33:40):
from Ardashizo and Pyrannicas and Mento War Japan. Cocona and
members barricaded the barrack to the anarchy the anarchist syndicolist
jeering and cat calling them, and the proceedings degenerated to
the level where it was almost impossible to hear the speeches. Eventually,
the anarcho syn Nicholas decided they had had enough. Unflirling
their black flags, they walked out of the hall to

(34:03):
a chorus of taunts such as believers, blind, believers in
Central authority, Bolsheviks, and betrayers, Oh my god, go over yourself.
Oh my no, okay, to be fair to the pure anarchists,
one of so, okay, a bunch of the cynicals, you
can start leaving, and all one of them does actually

(34:23):
join the Bolsheviks, but like all the other ones don't
because they're not. And you get this period there's like
they have like the Cynical List and that the puirenarchists
of dueling magazines. Uh, there's won't call black flag. There's
won't called black battle, and like so cocon Ran, which
is like the youth mid thing, like the cynicalist and
the anarchists are still in it together, and they like
they start just like fighting each other in the street
when they run into each other, because the the this

(34:47):
is more oppressive than everyone getting murdered after the earthquake,
not the jet side anarchist killing part. Yeah well, I
mean yeah, yeah, it's it's like it's like well, you know,
and like yeah, they What's interesting about this though, is
that like the inucle communists, like when the union splits,

(35:08):
like almost all of the people stay with the communists,
even though the other communists like explicitly saying we're not
fighting for like wage increases, we're just fighting revolution, and fine,
I'm all right with that. Yeah. Well, but there's interesting
stuff too where it's like like they're also so be
because they have this thing that's like, okay, so that
the urban workers are like exploiting the well, okay, the

(35:32):
line about it's complicated because it's like they think the
urban workers are exploiting the countryside, but they also don't
think that the solution to it is to just like
turn it the other way around. They think that like
the workers and the tenant farmers just work together to
like make the oppression go away, which is like a
reasonable stance on it. Yeah, but it means that you
know that they're interested in, like they're interested in the
real movement in a way that like the other Japanese
lefe stupents aren't. But unfortunately, you know, Okay, there's a

(35:57):
big debate as to whether this split like actually like
like how big a role this split had in the
collapse of anarchism, because like bye bye by, like by
like nineteen thirty one, like the fascists have just straight
up taken over Manchuria. Like I think things have gotten
so fascist that it's like it's unclear whether the split

(36:18):
mattered at all. Yeah, um yeah, but you know, they
run into this problem where like like cocul and like
the state really hates them, and they all a bunch
of them get arrested, and that they you know, they
respond to being arrested by like getting more militant. But
then that just you know, that fuels the cycle of

(36:39):
them getting arrested for and people just leave because they're like, well, okay,
if I'm in this organization, like we're all just gonna
like get shot. I mean that's the spiral. Yeah yeah,
and you know, it's just real problem. And like how
does Chiso himself becomes just like incredibly depressed by the
depression of the movement, but acteally thirty two, he just
leaves like he's just out. He like his anarchism. He

(37:01):
abuses his wife because this is the story of a
bunch of guys who sucked. And then he drinks. Yeah,
well I guess okay, he he did it to him.
He yeah, he drinks. He got it done on his arm. Yeah,
and you know, so he he dies and he like
kills himself. Well I don't think he was doing a purpose,

(37:22):
but he just dies from drinking too much. And that year,
actually the anarcho communists, Narcos Niklaus like get back together.
But it doesn't matter because by this point the fascists
are just started different power. And yeah, the anarchists they do,
they do one last world uprising and they fight a
lot of cops and then all of them get arrested
and anarchism just sort of dies until the end of

(37:43):
World War Two. And yeah, it's you know, okay, anarchism
does re emerge after the war, but that's like that,
that's a whole another story and entirely. Uh what I
will say about is if you see those those construction
hats from the protests, and you see one that's just
all black, it doesn't have like a name written on it,

(38:03):
like those are the anarchists. It's still around um and
you know, an anarchist of Japan like survives to this day.
There there there's a book called the Manual for a
Worldwide for a worldwide manuk revolts that like, one day,
I swear to God, I'm actually gonna read but he
is really big in China. Well, okay, I said really
big in China. It's very influential in a very small

(38:25):
subcultural anarchist scene in China. But I'm talking about them
because it heavily influenced Like the people who wrote the
Lying Flat manifesto, Um, we're like, we're very heavily influenced
by this stuff. Oh okay, okay, So we did the
episode about this a while back, but Lying Flat was
this thing in China, I guess still going on, but

(38:46):
like people were just like it's kind of it was
kind of the version of anti work or a most
people like discovered diogenes and or like what if I
just didn't work? What if I just like lived on,
like I worked like one day a month then lived
on like nothing so I didn't have to work? Or
if I just quit. What if I just like stop
doing all of this capitalist stuff, and what if I

(39:07):
like stop having to deal with this patriarchy. What if
I just like, you know, yeah, and it takes kind
of like yeah, yeah, they're they're great. They lots of
on diogenies quotes, lots of like the manifesto they released
is like very it's like very anarchist and yeah, like
that whole thing, and that was like like this, this
is a big enough social movement that like like she

(39:29):
jumping like mentioned it in a speech, Okay, and so yeah,
like Jenny's anarchism still influence to this day, a big
deal for them. They were kind of kind of concerned
a that like this the same way a whole bunch
of like oligarchs got concerned about the anti work stuff
and you saw like anti work hit pieces in the
past like six months. It was, yeah, it's like similar

(39:50):
things being like, well, this better not catch on more
because that could really suck for us. That's as optimistic
of a note as you could possibly get out of
the story, which is that they're still around and they

(40:12):
still influence things that matter, and hopefully they don't fight
each other more than the state. Yeah, don't don't do that,
Like I like, yes, I guess I will make my
controversial Sometimes it's okay to stab an abuser under the
throat stance. But also, don't purge all your syndicalists because

(40:37):
on the accusation of Bullshevism hot take, don't purge all
your synthey classes. Yeah, don't systematize violence like that. You know,
you're like, this individual guy just did this thing, and
I'm real upset that he just did it to me,
And there's like a throat. I'm not actually making an
actual advocacy. I'm talking about how sometimes when that has
happened in history that seemed kind of cool. But yeah,

(41:00):
not the not the systemic kick out all the people
who have this minor I mean, it's really funny to
me because I'm like, I'm like huge anti infighting. Then
people are like, don't you spend all your time fighting
tankies on the internet, And I'm like, they want to
make a state that's different. Yeah, they believe that they
everyone should be thrown in jail. That is a different thing. Um. Also,

(41:27):
I don't like you've got to manage to polycuele drama.
Like you gotta manage. It's got to be kept under control.
You cannot allow your retire your steam to be factionalized
over rival polyuels and anarchists control your polycuel drama quotations
and parties impossible. See, that's why you just need more.

(41:52):
Maybe it's true, it's like you need more multigenerational anarchists
because I think people in their forties give less of
a ship about a lot of the trauma. But then
I'm like, maybe that's not true. Maybe people on their
bodies keep just as much of a ship about all
the trauma. Anarchism wonderful idea. Yep, yeah, that's good. And

(42:17):
speaking of wonderful ideas, it is time for us to
do the plugs. Um. First, I just want to plug
Jamie Loftus is new cool Zone Media podcast Goes Church
by Jamie Loftus. Uh. By the time this drops, episode
one will be out in episode two will be dropping

(42:39):
the next Monday, I believe, yes exactly. And we also
have another podcast on Coolson Media with one Margaret Killjoy
it called Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff? Margaret, you
wanted to tell us about that? Oh sho? Should I
start working on that. I'll get it done by monday, okay,
cool Um, I have a new podcast called cool People
Who Did Cool Stuff, which is as about cool people

(43:02):
who did did cool stuff, and you might like it
if you like stories about people who. Um, I can't
say cool stuff again, I'll have to use come up
with more synonyms. Really, it's just all a competition to
see how many synonyms for cool I can come up
with without using the word based, because I feel like
I'm too old to use the word based without really,

(43:24):
this is what you are here for. So I'm much
more eloquent on my podcast, which you can catch every
Monday and Wednesday wherever you get your podcasts, probably wherever
you got this podcast is where you can find it.
And the trailer is out now, so you can go
and you can listen to the trailer where I talk
about some anarchist bank robbers who broke out of prison,
because why would you be in prison when you could

(43:45):
be outside of prison, which is generally the preferable position
to be in, with the exception of like every now
and then, like people break up out of jail by
like someone goes to jail on purpose, but they have
like hacks all blades in their shoes and ship. That
would be cool too. Um So more breaking your friends
out of jail and less chasing them out of the

(44:05):
room jeering at them is my general rule. I hate
to make rules, but if I were to make one,
it would be that. And you can hear me talk
about those kinds of stories on the podcast. Well, thank
thank thank you so much for joining joining us today,
for for Chris to talk about the wonderful, wonderful history

(44:31):
of Japanese centricism and the many, the many deaths that
are associated in those poor people and yeah, the like
so basically like a like a mini Korean genocide. Yeah, yeah, intense.
Well that's it for us today. You can find this

(44:52):
suit on Instagram. It happen to your pot in cool
sound Media. Uh see you next week and go listen
to podcasts. We have many of them. It could happen
here as a production of cool Zone Media. But more
podcasts from cool Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone
media dot com, or check us out on the I

(45:13):
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.
You can find sources for It could Happen here, updated
monthly at cool zone media dot com slash sources. Thanks
for listening.