The Lunar New Years Special: Mia Cracks The MSG Case

Before the tragedy at Monterey Park we took a look at the history of "Chinese Restaurant Syndrome" and the anti-MSG craze

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, they're listeners. This is producer DJ Daniel. The following
episode was recorded before the horrible events in Monterey Park.
The team will release an episode addressing the situation once
more details have emerged. Thank you and enjoy. It's's aluter
New Years. Yeah, happy New Years. It's it's it's it's

(00:21):
the New Year's Special. It's me Mia, I've got I've
got cherine with me. Yeah, how how are you doing?
I guess I guess it's I guess it's not the
New Year yet when we're recording it, but it will
be by the time you hear this. That counts. That counts.
I'm good. I'm I got a cat recently and I
called it funny. And then I learned later that this

(00:41):
year is the year of the Rabbit. So yeah, I
feel really happy about that. It's for this year. Yeah, exactly.
So I'm good. I'm good. That's the that's that's Having
new cat is an amazing way to start any year. Yes, yes,
I agree, it was very exciting that. Do you know
what else is very exciting? Transitions? They paid me to

(01:04):
do this for some reason. All right, this this this year,
we're going to talk about Chinese restaurant syndrome and the
whole sort of anti MSG craze. So that was I've
always been so big. I don't know. I grew up
in like, uh, I don't know, a diverse area in
San Diego, but we would always go to fun like regularly,

(01:24):
and the no MSG was like all over the menu
and everything. It's like this thing that I mean, every
restaurant I went to basically was just like come to us,
there's no MSG. So I'm really curious how it started
because growing up I was like, Okay, MSG is bad.
I guess you know what I mean to So, yeah,
I feel like it wasn't It wasn't really, it wasn't
as intense where I was growing up, but that was like,

(01:46):
I don't know, it was it was a very white
suburb but and people people were still freaked out about MSG.
But it wasn't but like the the the Asian restaurants
didn't like talk about it ever, I don't know, but
it was still it was still very sort of like
like I remember I would go like eat dinner with
like white families and they're talking about MSG, and I
was like what for a good amount of time, Yeah,

(02:08):
having now talked about MSG for a bit. We should
we should ask like what what is MSG? And the
answer okay. So MSG stands from mono sodium glutamate, which
is it's just a salt, basically salt with like glutamate,
and it has a bunch of a mommy in it.
I'm gonna read this thing from Kenji from Serious Eats
because every every every single article started that starts about

(02:30):
this has like this exact paragraph in it. So I'm
just gonna read it instead of trying to rewrite this
paragraph that I want to. MSG is a sodium salt
of glutamic acid and a amino acid. It was first
isolated in ninety eight by Japanese biochemist Takua Ikeda, who
was trying to discover what exactly gave dashi, the Japanese

(02:51):
flavor broth with Comba, Japanese giant sea kelp. It's strong
savory character. Turns out that comba is packed with clutamic acid.
It was a Kita who coined the term mummmi, which
roughly translates a savory to describe to glutamic acid and
other seminar similar amino acids. Until that point, scientists had
only discovered the other four flavors sensed by the tongue

(03:12):
and the soft palate, salty, sweet, sour, and bitter. By
nine pure crystallite MSG, extracted from the abundant kelp in
the c around Japan, was being sold under the brand
name a Gi No Moto roughly Element of Flavor. The
company exists to this day. Now keep that in mind.
That's going to be important to the last part of
the story. But you know, in the meantime, you know,

(03:33):
around around around nineteen noweight, once this is discovered, that
it turns into this sort of enormous industry. Um here's
from a pretty good Men's Health article about it. By
the nineteen forties, number of American companies were producing MSG
domestically for the consumer, the most famous being accents. Okay, there,
there's like it's spelled acts. It's it's accent, but it's
spelled a c apostrophe C E N T. That's not Yeah, no,

(04:00):
that's I lost me, Yeah said, which was it's it's
advertising is a bleak place. Yeah, that's that's a different episode,
I think partially, yes, also partially this episode. But yeah,
the thost famous one being Accent, which was advertised as

(04:21):
pure mono sodium glutimate that quote makes food flavors sing.
Various food magazines and community cookbooks featured the additive as
an ingredient and the likes of fried chicken wings and
barbecue sauce recipes. By nineteen sixty nine, fifty eight million
pounds of MSG were being produced in the US per year,
says food a story in Ian Moseby PhD. For an

(04:42):
entire generation, the ingredient was presented in a dizzying array
of food products breakfast cereals, TV dinners, frozen vegetables, baby food,
and soup produced by beloved brands such as Campbell's and Swanson,
which today offer foods products free of MSG additives. And Okay,
if you think about this for a second, it's actually
really weird that MSG s thought it as a Chinese thing,

(05:03):
because like, okay, MSG all told has only been around
for like a hundred years, right, It's heavily used in
the US for like thirty or forty years, Like it's
not in it's not really in China for that much
longer for this in the US, and it's used in
just like a bunch of American food. How did that start.
Do we know how that association started and continued? Yeah,

(05:26):
well we'll get it. Most it mostly has to do
with like it has to do with restaurants, and it
specifically has to do with the part that we're getting
to about this letter, which is weird. And I will
say like that there are a lot of Chinese families
that like just use MSG for like they're cooking. My
my house never did it because we're lazy and most
of our cooking involves like as few ingredients and prep

(05:49):
as possible, so we just like it's also really in
uh Beingnameese food. I feel like uses it a lot too.
That that was my first association with it. So I
just know, say because I'm I was don't all fourteen,
I just said, okay, this is Vietnamese, but that's really
interesting to just know, like, well it's Japanese too, like yeah,

(06:11):
I mean it's Asian, It's yeah, yeah, I don't know,
but like it is just it is just it's just interesting,
like the like people in the U s were just like,
I don't know, it's like it's it was in everything.
People in the US were also just using it to
cook food. This is also a thing that like people
in China use a lot too, So it's not that
like Chinese people don't do. It's just like everybody. Like

(06:31):
the moment everyone got it, they were like, oh my god,
this makes our food tastes better. She's more of it,
of course, I mean, I'm assuming. Once it got demonized,
it was like, oh, this is a Chinese thing, but
I don't know for sure. Yeah, I will be patient. Yeah,
so this is this is in fact the next thing.
So nobody really cared about it until nineteen sixty eight

(06:53):
rolled around. Well, so for those sixty years, MSG was like, yeah,
just use it. Yeah, yeah, Um, I'm forgetting where I'm
going to read apart from this journal article, and I've
forgotten to put in what journal is from because I'm
a hack and a fraud. I think it's a general
Natural health sure about that, right, Yeah, sure, it's it's
from It's from some journal sub doctors wrote it quote.

(07:17):
In the spring of nineteen, Dr Robert Homemana wrote to
the New England Journal of Medicine asking the assistance of
the journal's readership and invite identifying the source of phenomenon
that Dr Goa labeled the Chinese restaurant syndrome CRS, numbness
of his back and neck, palpitations, and general weakness after
he consumed meals in Chinese restaurants. Dr Gua hypothesize that

(07:41):
the source of his syndrome might be a reaction to
the soy sauce, the cooking wine, the high sodium content
of the food, or to the flavor enhancing mono sodium
glutamate m s G. Within two months, the journal received
a flurry of letters from readers who had noticed a
similar phenomenon after eating restaurant prepared Chinese food. So this

(08:01):
is the start of this whole thing. And there's one
thing I need to point out right away that is
in almost every single article about this that is wrong,
which is that this this this, this article says that
he's talking about Chinese food, which is true, but very
specifically and this and this is this is going to

(08:22):
be very important in about ten minutes. Well, I don't know, Tennis,
it's gonna be important soon, which is he specifically has
a thing about how this is about northern Chinese food mhm.
And you know, this is something that is something that
everyone everyone sort of misses. The other thing that's interesting
about this is that you know, he says it could
be MSG, but you know, she he's treating MSG exactly

(08:44):
like all of the rest of the other stuff that's
in this that's in the food, right, he lists soy sauce,
he lists cooking wine. Maybe he's like, okay, maybe there's
too much salt, right, Like he's not really doing an
MSG thing. But everyone who reads this immediately focuses on
the M s G. Okay. So before I started researching this,
I had heard that this whole letter was actually fake.

(09:06):
It was actually a prank. And you know, this is
this is a thing that's like, it's kind of like okay.
So the story behind this was that it was supposed
to have been a prank by a white guy named
Dr Steele who made it up as a joke. And
this is a sort of like a folk like okay,
So this story is not true. The story I am
about to say is not true. It turns out this

(09:27):
letter is actually real. But there was there was basically
a story that went around that it was this guy
named Dr Steele who had made it up as a
way to get published in a journal for like a bet,
because like Dr Steele like claimed responsibility for it, and
that got out to researchers. But it turns yeah, and
so for a bit everyone was like, oh my god,
this whole thing was started by a prank. But it
turns out that's also not true. So this American Life

(09:50):
figured out that Dr Robert is a real guy. Uh
dcr Steele had pretended that he said that he made
it up the name. It's not true. This a real guy.
They talked to his family and his colleagues and all
of them were like, oh no, guad like wrote this thing.
And interestingly, there's a lot of racism here too, because

(10:11):
Dr Steele had claimed that home Man, which is okay.
So this is where things get weird. Um I'm saying
good because that's how you actually pronounce it. Um. It's
spelled h O m A n k w okay whoa yeah, okay,
so this this is this is some Yeah. So this

(10:31):
is a wad Giles bullshit, the previous attempt to sort
of romanize Chinese. But just think of way Giles and
it is the band of my existence. It's dogshit. Hi,
this is mea and post I made a mistake here.
K w okay is actually the standard Cantonese spelling of good.
Sorry about that. I am a dipshit who does not
speak Cantonese. Yeah, and enjoy the rest of the show.

(10:52):
They heard someone say ga and we're like this is
k w It's like no, no, it's not. Please, So
that's bad. It's literally the worst. Like if you if
you ever you know, so sometimes if you if you're
if you're looking at anything something that's just spelled really weirdly,
like or for example, like the way that schenkai check
is spelled is actually like like it's actually a way

(11:16):
Giles thing like that. There's there's a whole bunch of
like like that. Yeah, yeah you can find um, I
don't know that that's I mean, that explains a lot,
but yeah, it's what and part part of everything that's
happening to you here is that like so and then
this is also gonna be important later. KOs is a
is a Cantonese last name. Um, but it's it's it

(11:38):
gets really really confusing really quickly if you don't know
what's going on, because if if if you're reading, if
you're reading a word that's in Chinese in the US,
it could either be in Mandarin or in Cantonese, and
it also could be either written with the terrible way
Giles one, or it could be in opinion, which is
like the one that's actually sort of usable. Um but

(12:00):
Dr Steele because again the way it's written is h
O m A and k w o kay and Dr
Steele claims that he wrote it to be like human
croc of shit like how man kruk. Yeah, excuse me,
people like people believe, yeah, well he's dead, so yeah,

(12:25):
that's that's so disgusting. Yeah, like this is this is
so racist, and it's like, you know, but this like
people people believe this for a while because yeah, I
don't know, but okay, so eventually people figure out that
it's not true. And I'm going to read something from

(12:47):
from this American Life piece where they talk about how
they figured out that it was actually like that Homenko
was like actually a real guy. And when you read
the original letter, there are details that seem more likely
to come from her father was just a close father
than from Howard. How Howard steels the doctor, like when
he said he booved to the US, which the real
doctor Good did, and how he's very specific the syndrome

(13:08):
happens with Northern Chinese food in the sixties. How many
white guys in Philadelphia could have made that distinction? Also,
oh man cool is an actual Cantonese name. What are
the odds that dr steel through together random sounding Chinese
syllables to arrive at that? So, okay, I read that,
and I had a revelation. I I cracked this case.

(13:29):
Why the funk open? I figured it out. I figured
out what was going on with this letter. Okay, I'm
so excited for this. I'm cold hypen this up for
like hours, I'm so excited. So I'm bts of this.
We have like a group chat essentially, and I didn't.
I wasn't sure if I can make this recording. But
then Mia dropped that that bomb, being like I have

(13:50):
this big break breakthrough, and I was like, I gotta
be there. I just gotta be there. And so I
kicked James out because James couldn't make me time I
could make. And so here I have I have. I
have not told Sharine what the breakthrough this is? Same time. Okay,
So is Cantonese right? And she specifies in this letter

(14:16):
that this is about Northern Chinese food. My thesis right
here right now is that this whole letter it's actually about.
It's actually about Cantonese anti Northerlan sentiments. This is a
whole last thing in China. Canton or like the region
that was called Canton on the west is like where
Cantonese people aren't. This is like this is the very
south of China, right there is a whole last thing

(14:39):
in China. Let like, people from the North people from
the South hate each other. Um, it's actually very weird.
So my my family is like half from the north,
half from the South, and like when my mom was
growing up, she like she would like get made fun
of for how she like rolled dumplings because people were like, oh,
you rolled dumplings like a Southerner And She's like, what
it is a whole fucking thing. It's like people hate

(15:01):
each other, yea, how else how would you know those intricracies,
you know what I mean, unless you were from there,
like had history there. Yeah, well I mean I was
just this is the thing that that that's persisted in
the U s too. You you still you still run
into this stuff like they're they're they're like there are
definitely like candidese restaurants were like you probably shouldn't speak Mandarin.
They're like, there's there's like this is this is still
a thing. It's not really talked about very much because

(15:22):
it's like it's it's kind of an internal Chinese thing.
But you know, the one place you actually really gotta
see this, you gotta see this from the Hong during
the Hong Kong protests in both sides, because like, okay,
so there there there's a strain of the sort of
like like there there's a strain of Chinese nationalism that's
very sort of like it was doing this like really
very sort of like anti southern racism from you know,

(15:44):
you get this from a lot of the Chinese nationalist
on the CCP side, there's another faction of like the
Hong Kong protesters who's like, thing was like, we're not
actually Chinese because we're not like the Northerners. You're a
communist and like evil, which which is really funny because
like you know, like okay, the if if you if
you run through the actual history of communism in China,
it's like, okay, like like one of one of the

(16:05):
one of the largest communists like strikes that ever happened
was in Hong Kong. Like sure, fine, but you know,
but obviously, like I'm simplifying all of this enormously because
it's very complicated. There's a lot of regional ship that's
going on here. Yeah, but so your your thesis is
that the person that started all of this was like

(16:27):
maybe like from the South or like just like yeah,
I mean that is that is definite, Like that is
that is like the like that is the most Cantonese
asked name I've ever heard, like that that that guy,
that guy, that guy is definitely from southern China. And yeah,
my my thesis is specifically it's this Cantonese guy going
a funk. Those nerds that there's I hate their I
hate their asses, I hate their food, their food at
ship eating it makes me sick. But because because it's

(16:48):
the US that the subtlety of this gets lost and
everyone just runs with it is like Chinese restaurant syndrome.
Even though this is the this is this is my theories,
this is this is like this is like kind of
semi obscured, like Chenny's like internal grudge v point, Like
like knowing the origin point makes a lot more sense
now to be honest, like, why would this be some

(17:09):
random like why would he specify a region, like a
very specific region that that's just I don't I don't
know that that that that that's my theory. I could
be wrong about this, but all it fits with all
of the details, so it checks out. It checks out,
I think. Yeah, So okay, alright, so so this this

(17:32):
letter happens and there's like a flurry of letters rather
people talking about this, and okay, I want to talk
about why this got picked up the way it does. Um,
I'm gonna still yeah, this is this is I'm going
to read from every single article in this also goes
exactly the same way. So I'm gonna read from Mens
Health version. So you get this section of it before

(17:54):
I talked about why it's I think like not sufficient
to capture what was happening. Mostly describes the late fift
is a time of heightened anti Chinese sentiment. By the
nineteen sixties, domestic and international politics had shifted towards a
fairly clear anti communist agenda. In fact, he says during
this time, anti Chinese sentiments were so widespread and accepted
that most Americans didn't consider their apprehension to be racial bias. Now,

(18:18):
this is true as far as it goes. But we
need to go to ADS and we'll come back from ADS.
I will tell em what else was going on in
that week? Hell yeah, all right, and we're back. We're back.

(18:39):
We're talking about how this like letter to like a
journal in New England suddenly became an entire like national
American thing. Okay, So the way this happened is that
this got picked up by the news. Now there's a
huge New York Times article about this, and that article
is published on May nineteenth, nineteen. Now, Sharine, do you

(19:04):
know what else was going on in May? I've heard
a lot of ship went down in the sixties. Yeah,
so this is this is right, This is like smack
dab in the middle of May sixty eight in France.
This is this is like one week after the Night

(19:24):
of the Barricades UM. Three days before this was published.
The situationists who are like these, this like ultra left
student organization who who who at this point are occupying
the Sorbonne like they have fully taken control of their campus.
They have run the cops out, they have run the
administration out. UM. Three days before this is published. The

(19:44):
students at the Sorbond, reacting to a factory occupation that
they heard about, send out this famous communicate calling for
the occupation of all factories in France, and like it
fucking happens, Like the workers in France take control of
like a huge portion of Francis factories, like the brain
factories are under control of the workers um like by
by by this time, like this is happening, right, the

(20:07):
police have like the police are fighting them, but they're
losing um. Two days before this article is published, uh,
the sorband sends this to the Chinese consulate quote, shaken
your boots, bureaucrats, The international power of the workers councils
will soon wipe you out. Humanity won't be happy until
the last bureaucrat is hung with the guts of the

(20:29):
last capitalists. Long live the factory occupations, Long live the
great Charitese proletarian revolution elected twenties seven, betrayed by the
Stalinist bureaucrats. It goes on and on, like this is
just what they're sending to the maoists right like that,
that is that is how far left these people are,
Like they're they're telling the Maoist shaking your boots, Bereaucrats,

(20:52):
the international power of work, those councils will soon wipe
you out. Like it is wild in sense. Yeah, I
mean the fact that this is happening all during all
of that. Yeah, yeah, I don't know, that's no, yeah, no, one,
it's it's really important. I have never read an article
that actually puts this together, and it was like, it's

(21:13):
not just that going on right, Like, you know, if
you like the situation in France, they are a week
and a half out from de Gaul, who was the
president literally fleeing the country because he's so convinced that
they're about to lose the country to communism. Like well,
and I should say when I say communism, by the way,
part of that message to the to the Maoist is
down with the state revolutionary Marxisms like that that that

(21:34):
these are these people are like these people have are
Marxists who have gone like so far left they've essentially
become anarchists. It's it's wild and mean, you know. And
also what's happening, like the prog Spring is happening during
the middle of this um. This is also like this
is a month after the Holy Week uprising in the US,
which is so after MLK was killed, there were these

(21:55):
like probably the most intense riots to US has ever seen,
like even like even more so than like the ones
we saw the Holy Week riot, Like they were like
like there there were there were like like thousands of
paratroopers We're being deployed to like kill rioters. Yeah, like nuts, yeah,
like that was that was probably the closest like some

(22:19):
of the closes the US has ever had to just
like actually having revolution in the government, losing control of
the entire country and like and what while this article
is coming out, like there are still even in May,
the Holy Week up risings in April, but like even
if like even in May, there are still people on
the streets fighting the cops, like while while this article
is being written, and you know, if you look at

(22:40):
the there's something about first on that entire year. I
mean it's wild like the six May sixty like that
that that year is just the year like the entire
world went. I mean there's like like like they they
I can't remember if they act successfully over through the government.
They like almost over through the government of Pakistan, like
a whole bunch of students shot in Mexico because they're

(23:01):
trying to bring down the government. Like it's everywhere. There
was all this stuff going on um And you know,
also the everything that is happening is we're two years
into the Culture Revolution and it's kind of interesting because
but by sixty eight we're kind of into the backlash
phase of the culture Revolution, where most of what's happening
is that the sort of various rebel factions that formed

(23:21):
the nine seven and nine sixty six are just getting
like slaughtered by the sort of like state factions. And
it's more it's it's it's a culture revolution. It's really complicated,
but like bye bye. By this point, the sort of
like revolution part of it has like kind of calmed
down and it's more the state in its sort of
new form taking control. But you know, if you're living

(23:41):
through this, right, it looks like the culture revolutions happens
in in in sixty six and then sixty seven, and
then suddenly there was a culture revolution happening literally everywhere.
And this is the context of the MSG scared like
kicks off in right. It It starts in like right
in the middle of arguably the two most radical months
of the entire twentieth century. Wow. Yeah, And and this

(24:04):
is this is the kind of ship that starts like
just an absolute mania in the American mind that is
powerful enough that like sixty years later, it's still around.
I mean it feels like the it happening as such
like a a manic time, like people were probably already
like kind of feeling that energy. Right. It was like

(24:26):
everything that was directed everywhere, even at this article. Yeah.
And I genuinely think if if this had happened two
months later, two months earlier, I don't think I don't
think there would have been like a big scare about it,
Like it might have been a thing I suck around
for a bit. But I think the fact that the
end of the New York Times article happen came out
exactly like in the middle of May sixty eight, and
that like the original one comes out like right before

(24:48):
the like the original article that gets set to the
thing comes out like a couple of weeks before the
Holy Week up Rising. I think it was the fact
that it was exactly in this moment where everyone on
Earth is if you we're living through this, like this
is the capital or revolution like has come and you know,
and that that chattered everyone's brains. Like I don't know.

(25:08):
I wonder like do people remember what it was like
like when like when like the height of twenty twenty
was happening, Like just how sort of wild like there
was just psychologically I'm telling you there was like an energy. Yeah, yeah,
that's collective strange. I mean, like obviously it's different than
it was sixty eight, But I really do agree with you,
like if it happened in January, you know, yeah, and

(25:33):
you know I So the the other thing that's interesting
about about this whole sort of like Chinese restaurant syndrome
is that you could actually track it spread like across
other countries by sort of like moments of like peak
anti Chinese like sentiment and also anti Japanese sentiment to
a lesser extent, because that that that sort of replaces

(25:53):
the anti Chinese stuff by the time you to the
eighties and nineties, but will not replaces. But it's like
it's like the dominant mode of like we have a
person who needs to be afraid of any stage. Um,
but there was interesting. Okay, so if if if if
you if you look up, um, like if you're looking
for you like medical stuff about Chinese restaurant syndime. One
of the things you will find is a case report
of the Indian Journal of Critical Medical Care from two

(26:16):
thousand and seventeen claiming that they were treating a patient
who got Chinese restaurant syndrome and like couldn't speak because
the thing in the back of his throat had like inflamed,
and you know, and then they had this whole thing
about like this this is like this is like a
serious disorder, and they specifically cited that letter to the
editor from sixty eight the power of that thing. And

(26:39):
you know, Okay, so if you look what what was
going on in India in two thousand seventeen, and it
turns out the thing that's going on is like a
giant rise and anti Chinese sentiment culminating in the toy
seventeen Indian Chinese border incidents. Where did you remember when
all those guys you're like beating each other to death
in the mountains with sticks? I do baking. Remember that

(27:01):
I as so sad and many times in my life,
and especially post pandemic, my brain is broken, but I
do vaguely remember that I had kind of forgotten about it,
and then and then I slok at this article and
sol in seventeen, I was like, wait, hold on, hold on,
wasn't that wasn't didn't didn't that happen in twenty seventeen.
And it's funny because like, yeah, right, attentual rise again,
suddenly Chinese restaurants and it reappears. It's it's really, it's

(27:25):
really incredible. It's it's yeah, it's an incredible set of
brain worms. Um. I just I mean, this is definitely
not on topic, I guess, but even just seeing like
COVID being blamed on China, like there's always like a
like a way for ignorant people just to point the
finger at China, which is really fucking shitty. It's so yeah,

(27:48):
it's yeah, I mean, I think it's it's just sort
of like like one of the things you sort of
need to have a national project is that in order
for you to be in order for you to be
like a nation, you have to have you have to
have another You have have people who aren't part of
the nation, and the US is pretty effectively they have
they you know, they can have the sort of rotating
cast of people who like aren't like from the nation, right,

(28:10):
if you want to stay in, there are people that
need to stay out. Yeah. Sometimes with Mexico sometimes sometimes
you get it with sort of like like internal subversion
from like black people, like additions people. But yeah, you know,
they have this rotating cast. China is always one of
the ones that come back to because it's just big
and there's a lot of them, and you know, people
are easily feared by it. Like I think it's like

(28:32):
it's unknown, and maybe people don't understand it very well
that don't look into it themselves and want to be educated.
But forever reason, people fear it so easily, and it's
so bizarre. It's so bizarre. Yeah it sucks. Oh yeah, Okay,
So I'm going to do an ad break and then
we're gonna talk about more of this stuff because it

(28:54):
keeps going and we're back, all right. So obviously we're
dealing with sort of anti Chinese sentiment and anti Japanese
sentiments as you know, Japanese sentiment escalating as the safety

(29:15):
surting into like the eighties and nineties. But there's more
going on here. Um. Part of the reason you know,
back like this in theory could have been about like
soy sauce. Right, Like, there's a lot of things that
they could have picked out of that to be the
thing about, but they picked M. S. G. And part
of the reason they picked MSG is that this is

(29:36):
the period when people start like figuring out that food
additives exist. Mm hmmm, and people don't get really sort
of touchy about it. And actually Ralph Nader uh famous. Yeah,
so he's around in the sixties, um because he's old
as ship. Yeah yeah, and he's you know, okay, so

(29:57):
I give I give him credit for for he has
probably saved as many lives as like any other American,
single American you can name, by being the guy who
like lobbied to have seatbelts in cars being mandatory. I
think that was not before because the US is a
like truly deranged country. Yeah, he wasn't half bad most

(30:19):
of the time. Yeah, but but come on, he's also
one of the guys who's like the big pusher for
getting the US government to study MSG and a lot
of other food editives and like nine so you know,
and like there's a bunch of other food items that
they're studying the health effects of. And and on the
one hand, like, yeah, it probably is good to study
the effects of like food editives because like I don't know,

(30:42):
companies do stuff that sucks all the time, and so
it is good to study with a your food. On
the other hand, Okay, it's gonna sound really ignorant, so
I apologize, What where again if you already said this,
where was that foul? Where was mustry found? As it
created in the lab? Like what's the Yeah, but by

(31:04):
this point it's basically creating a lab. The first time
someone was able to distill it was they did this
whole distillation process of seaweed seed. Yeah. But but but
by this point, it's no worries. Yeah, no, like by
bye bye bye, I mean even by like they're early
actually twenties. I think it's it's mostly being produced artificially,
which is probably but yeah, yeah, and it makes it

(31:26):
taste better. But like, like you know, it is something
that like you like you can't find it like in
in dashi, like you can find it in like soup
broths and stuff like from the way from seaweed. So
it's it's not like I didn't know that. I've known
about MSG for most of my life and I never
like for whatever reason. Growing up, we always associated with

(31:46):
sodia like salt, salty. Yeah, well, I mean it is right,
like it is a kind of salt, but like I
don't know, like people people have this whole thing like oh,
it's artificial. It's like like yeah, we make it artificially,
but like it's not it's not like it's not a
thing that you can get out of plants. It's just
that we don't do it that way because it's easier. Yeah,
the source of it is the artificial. But also like

(32:08):
you're gonna be a stickler on this one thing when
you eat like I don't know, so many other and
drink so many other things. Like there was cocaine and coke. Yeah,
there's every every every every every American like in nineteen
sixty nine is like by by their body volume, drinking
two pounds of lead a year. So like it's like
like this is the thing you're gonna stick up. Yeah,

(32:30):
well and and you know, and this this is this
is this is sort of the problem with with what
Ralph Nader is doing with this sort of like pushing
the government investigation of it, is that like you know,
like I don't know how racist nine nine, Ralph Nader
was My My guess is that I don't think that
his big thing was we need to study this because
it's the dirty Chinese like salt or whatever. I I

(32:53):
think I think mostly just wanted to you wanted the
thing to study food editives. I could be wrong about that.
I don't know. I haven't I've looked into this exact
zero percent. But like, you know, the problem is that
like once the sort of racial panic is going, like
you can't put you can't put the sort of cork
back in the bottle, right and you know, okay, so
there have been a bunch of studies about this, um

(33:16):
and like but but you know, okay, the problem with
what's happening is that because of the way MS has
been sort of racialized, like the studies don't matter. Like
it's it just does not matter what anyone actually sort
of writes about it until you get an actual cultural
change because the study science is irrelevant. Um, they have

(33:37):
the study to justify a bunch of things and that's
the only study they care about. Yeah, it's it's it's
it's like the like vector that's like the like the
fake factory of vaccines cause autism. Ship, Like, no, it's
they just believe this. They have one paper that's literally
a joke exactly. Yeah, that's like, but disprove it. But
like noah's a million others like that. By the way,

(33:59):
that study, I want to point this out. The methodology
of that study was they asked parents who thought their
kids had developed autism because of the vaccine if they
thought their kids had developed autism because of the vaccine,
and then the parents said yes, and that's the study.
That's the study. Yeah, that's a lot of study. It's
a joke, like it's it's literally a Twitter pool. They
like got published, and they're attracted because al right, like

(34:22):
this this is the scientific basis of all this bullshit,
and what qualifies is a fucking study. Then you could
you could, I don't know you can. You can publish
fucking anything if you put your mind to it. This
is this. This, this is what I'm telling all of you, like,
follow your dreams, try to get something published. They published
this bullshit, so like you know, I'm gonna I'm gonna

(34:43):
do a study. Yeah. Well the other thing. The other thing, specifically,
like there's a real problem here with like this is
everything with medical studies because like you can have a
medical study that you get published with a sample size
of one because it's you found a thing and a
guy and you're like, oh, I'm gonna publish this, but
you like medical studies, like you could just like you
could publish any bullshit and like it sucks. But okay,

(35:06):
so all right, like lots of so after this, there
are lots of studies by lots of people, and like
mostly what they find is they can't find any Okay.
So there's some like initial studies that like find some
alarming stuff in mice. But the problem with these studies
that what they're doing is Okay, yeah, it turns out
you can take a mouse and you just like fill
a syringe with MSG and inject them with it. It's

(35:28):
bad for them, but like yeah, yeah, you would you
injected a mouse with pure salt, and bad things happen.
Like yes, if you took a human being and you
injected fucking a third of a cup of MSG directly
into their veins, it would probably be bad for them,
like okay, you know, right, um, And they found out

(35:51):
the conclusion from that was basically like okay, if someone
ate like a third of a cup of MSG raw
having not eaten for like forty eight hours, it would
probably do things that are not great for you. Can't
you say that. I've had a bunch of other fings
like like I don't know if if if you didn't
eat for twenty four hours and eight a third or
a couple of salts, like that's probably that's not good

(36:12):
for you. Like I don't do that, So, like you know, okay,
very very specific circumstances have to light it up for
you to have reactions. So there's a study from two
thousands where they also this is also another empty stomach
study by the way, because they've okay, no one has
ever been able to replicate like any of these results

(36:33):
with a person eating food that has MSG in it.
They're everybody able to do it. They've been able to
get some results. If you have people eat like basically
pure MSG and have not eaten any food like around it, Yeah,
it's like you're that's useless because the the molecule at
that point it probably interacts with other things and that's

(36:54):
you know what I mean, Like if it's just I'm
not the actual I don't know, Yeah, I'm of a chemistry.
So I'm gonna let the chemistry nerds arguing I did
fail a p chem so great. Yeah, I I look
how I only had to take chemistry in so I
just didn't take a p KEM because, like, I suck.
I took a CHM like my first my freshman year.
Now it's like, let's not do this again. I can't

(37:17):
do this. Just don't take the thing. I wanted to
be a psychiatrist for a really long time, but failing
AP chemistry and just experiencing chemistry, I was like, I can't. Yeah,
it sucks. It's the worst. But okay. So the reason
I was talking about the vaccines cause as like autism
ship is that there was another thing with MSG where
people were claiming it was causing asthma and it no,

(37:39):
they had there. They had another looking incredibly elaborate pseudoscience
bullshit about like the MSG like getting absorbed, like getting
absorbed improperly through like like fetal membranes. That's like completely nonsense,
Like it doesn't. Yeah, people people like what what white
people love to say that the diseases they've gotten from

(38:01):
fucking the fact that like they're they're the air in
their house is n c O two by volume and
like and and could because because they've decided to run
an entire country by just putting fucking trucking yards everywhere,
like okay, a finger to point at right, like it
can't be yeah, you know you know what I mean, Like, yeah,

(38:23):
I should. I should make this clear. By the way,
when when I when I when I when when when
I say when I say that like autisms, I'm not sorry.
When when I say that asthma specifically is when I'm
talking about the bad air specifically talking about asthma, I'm
not talking about autism with that that that that is
not what causes autism or whatever, like just it's cool
and also funk autism speaks, yes, yeah, but yeah, I

(38:48):
want to put that on the record. That's what I mean.
I'm not I'm not saying that trucks cause autism. They don't.
Like yeah, yeah, so okay, but there's a lot of
like incredibly weird, racial, very dumb, anti scientific panic about it.
It's possible that there existed so Ofvisually it was about
like like anyone who eats this will have these sentiments, right,

(39:09):
and then over time the argument got sort of fizz
down to there might be a group of people who
in the population, like a small group people who are
like specifically sensitive to it, and that's probably plausible. Like
there's some experimental evidence that shows that there could be
a group of people for whom they're more sensitive to
it than a regular person And I don't know, people

(39:30):
of allergies like whatever, like yeah, yeah, yeah, Like it's
not like like yeah, it's it's not a thing to
sort of like like yeah, I don't know, like if
you're a person who gets allergy reactions to ship, like yeah,
that's allergies, right, but like it's it's not the sort
of like I don't know if the panic about it

(39:51):
is utterly unjustified. There may be if there may be
a group of people who it has some effect on
because there are larger to it or whatever. But yeah,
imagine imagine demonizing peanuts because there's a group of people
that can't eat peanuts, you know what I mean? Like,
that's that's that's why, like why would you ever do that?
To be fair, I I am okay with demonizing peanuts specifically,

(40:13):
specifically if it gets people to stop fucking were shipping
that bastard Jimmy Carter, who was a neoliberal ghoul, and
his reputation has been fucking just like like, his reputation
has been saved entirely by the fact that every single
person who came after him was an utterly deranged war
criminal and his war crime was like suppressing well he

(40:35):
was a peanut farmer. Oh sorry, sorry, this is this
is this is this is the this is this is
the the deep Jimmy Carter lore for okay it yeah, okay,
but you know, all right, So going going back, I
think so this was the kind of thing that like,
you know, people avoiding msg is just kind of had

(40:57):
just kind of been like like a part of daily life,
Like it was just like a thing that existed in
the world. But it wasn't like at a certain point
it became the kind of thing that people would talk
about like in conversation and like they'll did you know,
you could just get people to do ant msg rans,
But it wasn't really a sort of like mainstream political
issue in the way that it had been like in
that st nine where there's well, the only thing that

(41:19):
happened is in the nineties the FDA did to study
about it. The f d A was like, it's fine,
don't don't don't eat three grams of it at one time. Likes,
as long as you're not sitting there like eating MSG
raw out of the fucking like you think about like
hyd syrup, why yeah, and like like by by volume,

(41:41):
hypric dose cord and syrup was killed way more people
than also. Now now there's like a whole thing about
like MSG causing obesity, which I I don't know if
that's true or not. I think their studies are fucking whack,
but you know, it's it's it might cause obesity like
every other food that the US has made in the
last twenty years. Yeah, yeah, and what what what one

(42:05):
one day we will do a episode about like the
politics of anti fatnists because it's fucked but today we're
we're doing this episode and okay, so you know, every
once in a while, the way the way of this
stuff work, every once in a while, there would be
a sort of like like a mainstream like Asian American
figure who would talk about it. For example, there's there's

(42:26):
there's a Korean chef named David Chang who talks about
it um and he he did some like he gave
speeches about it and the start demonization of it, but
it didn't really get back to Mainsham discourse until when
are Good Friends a Gino Moto. The people who made
the stuff in the first place hired a bunch of
Asian American like celebrities to do a pro MSG campaign.

(42:48):
So they hired Eddie Huong, who's like a writer and
chef who's like probably most famous for being the guy
who wrote Fresh off the Boat, and so that they
have this whole sort of campaign and this like takes
off right like he he. This is this is one
of those things that was like completely forgotten that happened
in that no one now remembers because this happens like
before COVID, like before we had the lockdowns and before

(43:11):
I'll be honest, it escapes my memory. I I have
no member this happening either, but apparently it did. I
don't know. I was I think this was still well
the I think this is well the election was still
going on, so yeah, the best time to do that
year everything happens. But okay, so you know this campaign

(43:31):
like takes off like like any Huang's on on NBC
and did you like the talk show circuit with Jenny
Am advocating for like so that their whole thing is
that they wanted to remove Chinese restaurants sent from the dictionary,
and they had this whole like hashtag redefinance CRS is
like the redefining Chinese Restaurant syndrome, and this is like

(43:53):
a whole thing, and you know, and there's there's there's
something okay, but this was one of the things that's
gonna drew me to the story because if you look
at the press for this, right, it's like activists pressure
maryon Webster and like that's kind of true, Like it's
superficially it is kind of what happened, and like, yeah,
I'm glad the dictionary change the entry to say like
this is like outdated and kind of bullshit, but like, okay,

(44:18):
think about what actually happened here, right. A company that
makes a product hired a bunch of a bunch of
sort of Asian American like big celebrity people to do
a marketing campaign for them in the name of anti racism,
which like, yes, I I am glad we are addressing

(44:39):
the racism in our own MSG. However, common I feel
like it's a really sort of like it's a It's
a really literal example of the kind of like vopidity
and listlessness of like Asian American identity and culture and
politics like pre COVID, like this is this is this
is this hands something like early January, right, so COVID
is still sort of like some disease in China, like
we haven't hit full of racis and yet. And again

(45:01):
like this is not like an activist campaign, you know,
I mean, like activists get on board with it, I guess,
but like activism is doing an ad campaign for a
company that makes salt right. Yeah, it's not exactly grassroots
or yea, and and you know, okay, and it works

(45:23):
right like this this is a thing that like the
Asian American community like picks up right, I mean sort of.
I don't know. I I don't remember it, but I
when I look looking looking back on the articles and
hashtags and stuff, it's like, wow, they got lots of tweets.
But you know, I I think I think the reason
that this worked is is because of the sort of

(45:45):
self conception of like Asian American nous. Is this like
backstory of like like immigrants stepping off the boat and
they start a restaurant, and then your kids get an
education to the answer the professional class, and like there
isn't like I don't know, like this is in fact,
this is literally like part of the reason I'm doing Also,
it was like this is literally what happened to my family.
Like they like they showed up from Taiwan, they worked
in a restaurant, then they opened a restaurant, and then

(46:07):
like I don't know, like every successive generation, well okay,
I was gonna say every every successive generation got more
like professionally, but like I have a bunch of doctors onthing.
But but then they also produced me, who's a podcaster.
So I'm I'm defying Asian American stereotypes bite being more
dipship than my parents. But you know, like this has

(46:29):
become like this single sort of cultural narrative of like
what it is to be in Asian American, Right, Like
you see this in every single story that Asian American
media like has produced in the last like ten years.
It has one plot. Right, There's a family in the US.
They're trying to fit in. They almost always have some
kind of small business, and then something appears that challenges
their ability to like assimilate into American society. This is

(46:53):
and then you know, they deal with it and that's
the end. Right, This is a plot of crazy rich Asians,
is a plot of everything ever all at once. The
plot of Fresh of the Boat is the prout of
the fucking c W. Kung Fu show. It is the plot.
Like literally everything that like we produce has one plot,
and it's this. And the reason why is it's you know,
there's the reason why. This is the only sort of
like piece of media that that the sort of Asian

(47:14):
American culture class have been able to produce. Is the
reason why all the fucking activism and ad campaigns are
just like, fucking we got hired by a company and
we're gonna talk about where racism racism is bad, so
about this company can sell more product. Like, the reason
is this is because this is an incredibly marketable self
conception of Asian American nous like that the conception of
it as being restaurant owners is there because it's it's

(47:37):
it's a form of culture that can be sold to
white people. Right, It's, hey, look we're different. We eat
wacky food, but you can eat it too, And ultimately
we're all in this for capitalism in the patriarchal family,
like just like you are, don't worry, It's gonna be fine.
And you know that that really depresses me because this
this is a moment that demands something else. And I
think that's why kind of like I think that's why

(48:01):
the sort of mainstream like Asian American reaction to like
you know, like that there was there was another there
was another Asian woman like who got stabbed to death
like two weeks ago, and there was like fucking no
coverage of it, Like nobody gave a ship. It's just
gotten to the point where like this happens, like six
people report on it and then everyone just sort of

(48:23):
moves onto their life. Yeah, And I think the reason
why this sort of like stop Asian hate ship has
gotten to a you know, like it's gotten it gets
gone through the sign cycle where everyone like had the
signs up and then they took them down and so
you know, like and I think the reason why it
was it turned into this sort of like like did
the organizing turning this like incredibly vapid like put a

(48:44):
sign in your store like two the hashtag stuff like
is because of this is is because what like what
what it means to be sort of Asian American has
been hollowed out and hauled out and hold out and
sold and sold and sold for just decades and decades
and decades and now, you know, like in a time
and it's actually sort of like you know, when it
when it's really in danger and it's called to action,

(49:06):
it hasn't been able to do much right. And well, yeah,
pointing out the film and TV thing is really important
because I mean, so many marginalized communities have this experience.
But I think China, like Asian culture in particular, I
think it really people if they're ignorant and they just
see what's depicted on media, they don't see them as

(49:27):
three dimensional beings, you know what I mean, what they
have is like a very hollow version of a human
And so I don't know, it's it kind of upsets
me because I feel like media is the first thing
people learn things from, whether it's film or TV or whatever.
But yeah, well, and also I think it's I think
it's part of the reason why, like the way that

(49:50):
those those depictions sort of obscure class where you know,
because these things, right, like a lot of these families
are poor, but they're still business owners, right, And that
that's like like if you're who are American as well,
it's because you're a business and you're like a sort
of struggling like American entrepreneur. And this obscure is the
fact that there there is a massive Asian American just
underclass people who are like delivery drivers or work in

(50:10):
warehouses or you know, I mean like they're they're there.
Who could there are groups of people who like come
to the US from China who you know, like live
in like basically completely isolated communities in pertect Chinatown where
they're only speaking Chinese and they just sucking. Like there
are people who have to do a bunch of like
warehouse ship and then they leave and that's it, right,
Like and these these people this ship never you like,

(50:33):
you never actually get any kind of sort of class analysis,
because the way that media thinks about Asian Americans is
like there's there's one of they're either one or three things.
They're a business owner, they're like a rich professionals like
a doctor or something, or they're like the fucking people
on Blink where they're just like super rich assholes. And
that that allows I think like a specific kind of

(50:55):
anti Asian politics to work that like Asian people are
seen to sort of like Setubal like four an elite,
and it's like no, I don't know, like it's it's
just not you know, it's it's not true and and
it and it means that when you get like Asian
American political movements, like the sort of stuff antiation hating, right,
like you have like the guy who founded door Dash, right,

(51:17):
is like is a nation is like a Chinese American guy, right,
and he's like he used to he's a tech billionaire.
He used to be like an emany Like you know,
you would have the stop Asian hate advance, Like this
fucking guy is on their light, is up on the
stage talking about anti agent hate. And it's like, okay,
this guy has like brutally and horribly exploited like literally
millions of Asian Americans. But you know, there's there's there's

(51:39):
there's no there's never gonna be reckoning with that because
you know, and he's he's capitalist, like he's achieved the
capitalist dream or whatever the ship and and I I
mean because because because Asian American contentia has been flattened
in this way, like those people are just completely invisible
and it it sucks and I hate it and yeah, yeah,

(52:02):
I it's just I don't know. There's nothing good. I
can like anything I can say to make anything better,
but I think it's just I don't know. Maybe we
can do an episode one day about like film and
TV and stuff, because I think it really starts there unfortunately,
like like it's it's silly, but people that don't know

(52:24):
a Chinese person will see a Chinese person on their
TV and be like, that's the only Chinese person I've
ever seen in my life. And I'm gonna make assumptions
about the whole race now. But one day I'm going
to do an epid. We're gonna do an episode that's
entirely me shifting on Jackie Chan. People are gonna get
really mad at me. But funk that guy. That's a
hot take. He started his career as a fucking scamp.

(52:46):
That was literally his first thing was he was a scap.
And he's yeah, he's the fucking homophote piece of shit.
Fuck him. Uh yeah, done your parable damage for this episode.
Let's do it. Yeah, all right, that will that will
be something we're We're now to the part of the
episod we are teasing you with subsequent episode. But yeah,
but yeah, I don't know. And it's a little bit

(53:09):
upsetting how these are really important movements are just like
they the plateau and they become like this vapid thing
like you're saying, Like, I think that gives people such
an easy out of like quote unquote being an ally
or supporting because they think they're doing something by like
holding up a sign or something without really internalizing or

(53:29):
spreading the awareness that is necessary. And uh, I don't know.
I I guess the thing I want to end on
also is me being piste off at a bunch of
Asian American kids in the sets. So one of the
stories you will hear a lot if you're studying Asian
American politics, like is the story that like the term
Asian American was invented by these like activists who actually

(53:51):
were like doing a bunch of stuff eight um, these
like student act like this radical student activists, and like
that's true. But the thing you have to understand about
those people is that all of those people were like
like all those people were basically like we're third world ists.
And part of the reason this whole politics collapses. Well,
a part of the reason, part of what happened was

(54:13):
like part of the demands of these students in these
sort of like radical student groups, like but you know,
their form to sort of like support the sort of
like black radical student groups into like advocate for themselves.
But like one of their big demands was they wanted
cultural studies departments in in American universities, and they got them.
But you know, okay, so what what what what are
those cultural studies like departments? They basically just became these

(54:36):
giant traps through radicals where instead of like overthrowing the government,
you like come do this cushy job in academia, and
like all of all of the sort of like old
radicals like from that area either like got regular jobs
or became like Agrican academics. Right. And the other thing
that happened with this politics that was the reason why
it was completely unsustainable was that and this is this
is this has been a sort of a problem with

(54:56):
the Asian American identity. Right. Is that Okay, like what
the fund is a nation American? Right, It's like anyone
from like I don't know likes anyone from like the
like the edge of the Pacific to like I don't know,
like how how how far? How far? Like I what's

(55:17):
it called? Like how far? How far west? Does that go?
The other direction? Like who knows? It's like yeah, like
I mean this is like billions and billions and billions
of people with completely your related cultures and languages and
stuff like that. And the reason they were able to
do this, right was because they were mirroring their movement
off of like the Third World right. But the problem
that they ran into, and this is the problem with

(55:39):
all the Third World movements, was that, Okay, so the
Third World movement like as a thing was it was
based on a bunch of different nationalist movements, right, Like
it was based on that there was going to be
this like alliance between like the sort of like the
rising socialis powers in Africa and the rising socialist powers
and uh in East Asia, and they were gonna sort
of like ally with like the rising sort of like

(56:02):
you know, like the rising sort of like minorities getting
power in the US. But okay, if you look at
those nationalisms, right, you have Chinese nationalism, Cambodian nationalism, and
Vietnamese nationalism all colliding with each other, and you know,
if it turns out like what okay? So what what
what happens if your movement is based on sort of
like the unity of a bunch of nationals movements and

(56:23):
they go to war with each other? And you know
what happened was when when when China when Vietnam and
Vadas Cambodia in and and Vietnam and Vedas Cambodia and
then China invades Vietnam in nine seventy nine. Right, the
entire politics is fucked because what what what are you
supposed to do? Like what's who's who side you're supposed
to take here? Right? Like you can you can do
the you know, like if if you're gonna be like

(56:45):
a Marxist, like a Marxis Leninist, like the probably the
correct line to support Vietnam, Right, but that's a mess
because you know how many simple in Maoists, right and
if you but but you know, if you're a Maoist
and you're fucking people just invaded Vietnam, like you know,
what are you supposed to do? Right? And there was
there were earlier attentions with this too, where like like
China with China was backing like a really shitty fashion

(57:06):
in Angola who ended up ended up being backed by
the US and like South Africa, and that caused a
whole bunch of tensions between the sort of Chinese maoists
and a bunch of the sort of black radical groups
because they were like, why the funk are you guys
backing these people in Angola. But you know, and and
and this, this whole thing became a problem because all
of these nationalisms are competing nationalisms right there. There was
never going to be one unified third world. It was

(57:28):
always it was always going to end with a bunch
of nationalists fighting each other. And when that happens, the
Asian like the Asian American movement such as it was
just fucking died, and you know, like as a radical movement,
it was just over. And so you know, I think
I think the lesson that I would take out of
this is just that like, do not build, do not

(57:51):
build your movement based off of someone else's nationalism, because
those people are going to do things because they're nationalists
that are just fucked right. They're gonna win. They're gonna
invade Vietnam like Kemp, like the Cambodians are gonna invade Vietnam,
and then Vietnam is gonna like you know, like are
arguably justifiably because they've been getting attacked because they're fighting

(58:11):
the Khmer Rouge. But like you know, they're they're these
people are all going to go to war with each other,
right like you're or you know, you're, you're gonna be
stuck in the situation where like you're, you're, you're you're
being forced to two sides between like the DIRG and
the and like the Marxist government Somalia because they've they've
randomly gone to war with each other. So don't do this.
This has been my rants that I wanted all I

(58:33):
wanted to do about this because yeah, no, I'm glad
you did. I'm glad that I was here for it too,
because I don't know. It's good to know this stuff
and I get to learn by listening to you still
me um, Yeah, I I appreciate all the research that
you did. Thanks. Yeah, and yeah, so I guess this

(58:55):
has been It can happen here, yeah, yeah, that's the episode.
You can find us happen here pod um on Twitter
and Instagram. I'm at amc h R three. Um, yeah, yeah,
I'm a sure hero six six six on Twitter and
then on Instagram. Just take out the six six sixes,
but maybe I should add them because who cares anyway?

(59:18):
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(59:39):
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