September 17, 2021 • 34 mins
The Team sits down with Theo (@the0hansen) to get a rundown on the upcoming far right rally in Washington DC.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
What's a problem. It could happen here the show where
I'm a problem. I'm on vacation legally. You're not on
vacation allegedly legally, But okay in Shelah, I'm drunk, Garrison,
you're in charge. Now figure it out? Great, Hi, what
(00:27):
it could happen here? Today? We are talking with somebody
if you've listened to the past two episodes, you should
actually know, uh, THEO, who is a journalist and researcher,
and we are going to be discussing plans for an
upcoming rally in Washington, d C. That's has a lot
(00:48):
of that seems good. Yeah, this is us. Never happened
when what happened last time? What happened last time? I
did this? I don't. I historically only pay attention to
things that happened after May and before December. So I'm
unaware of anything bad ever happening at DC. Well, something
(01:10):
bad stuff happened there last time. It got it got
a little spicy, Um, okay, spicy, But it's not like
they tried to overthrow the government murder elected leaders, right,
that is what they are actually having too much fun. Yeah,
they're just boys. They were just proud of their boys,
a little carried away building, all of the building, that
(01:32):
big hanging contraption whatever it's called gallows gallows. Yeah, anyway,
we're talking THEO. Do you want to want to introduce yourself? Yeah, Hey, guys,
I'm THEO idealist and a researcher. I'm based out of Virginia.
Allegedly i end up covering a lot of events in
(01:53):
DC because of that, and that's my plans for this weekend. Yeah,
do you want to it? Do you want to give
us like an overview of what rallies and d C
have been like the past, let's say, like the past year.
Oh boy do I yeah, let's just just for background. Yeah, so,
(02:15):
like pretty much immediately post election, as the whole kind
of stop the steel thing got kicked into gear. Um,
November fourteen, there was a rally in d C. UM,
and then there was one December twelve, and then there
is finally one as most people are probably aware, on
January six. January six, you know, obviously got the bulk
(02:38):
of the media coverage. UM. But November fourteenth and especially
December twelve were very violent situations in general. UM Proud Boys.
General Chudd's a bunch of oath keepers, bunch of people's
confused mems and pat ups showed up. Um would kind
(03:03):
of wander Yeah, yeah, pretty pretty fucked up. I know
some people who were there when they did, and it's
I don't know, it's sad, like it's really bleak. I
was there with the people that you know, yeah, oh good, yeah,
(03:25):
so you I mean that, It's just it's so fucking um.
I don't know the extent of the disinformation, right, it's
hard when you're talking about this to like express a
lot of sympathy for some of these people. And I'm
not sympathetic towards their aims. I'm not trying to do
the New York Times like let's talk to the Trump
voter down the street, but like a lot of them
are just like they're fucking dumb people who bought into
(03:48):
some bullshit and it destroyed them and their relationships with
their families in some cases cost them their lives, and
like you don't have to sympathize with them to be like, yeah,
that's bleak as ship know. Yeah, And I think you
see that with the d c rallies really more so
than like uh Portlands Proud Boy event, for example, that
(04:10):
is not at all a gathering of like the masses.
That's that's a specific group of pieces of ship. Yeah yeah,
And like you'd have absolutely like units of proud Boys
or oath keepers. We had three percenters some local Virginia militias,
and they'd kind of be wandering around. But during the
day itself, you'd normally see like speakers. Alex Jones was there. Um,
(04:31):
got to meet him. That was fun. Um, that's always
a meeting Alex. He's a great guy. It was really fun.
He's his neck. It's hard to exaggerate how how he
is just as read in person. He's so red. And
(04:52):
as a guy who's good at strangling, it seems like
he would be hard to strangle. Oh nearly impossible. Like
it's so big. It's such like it's like a fucking
train car. Like it's ridiculous how big that man's neck is. Look,
most people aren't hard to strangle. Alex Jones would be.
That's not praising him, that's just being honest. So during
(05:14):
the day there would be speakers, you know, Alex Jones,
and you kind of see people split up into whatever
they're specific brand of fucker. He is there's like groups
of nerdy looking gropers. Um, there were some trad cats
wearing robes. Those guys were fun, but yeah, a lot
of it's you know, confused, like boomers on Facebook, and
(05:36):
kind of to Robert's point, like I normally didn't go,
you know, wearing press credentials because I value knives being
outside of me and not inside of Yeah, it's it's
good to not get stabbed. Most people appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,
it's one of my favorite things. And so I'd get
to like talking to these people, especially the older ones,
because I take the Metro into the city and they
(05:57):
are they're just confused, old people who have gotten in
over their heads. But yeah, then like the sun would
set and that's when the Proud Boys would really start
getting into ship. November they stabbed. I don't know if
I'm remembering this correctly, so feel free to fact check me,
(06:19):
but I believe it was two people on uh they
cracked a girl's skull. And then on December twelve they
stabbed one other person and Jeremy Bertino got blayed on
the street. He shared he shared in and the d
A elected not to prosecute because that was the clearest
(06:41):
case of self defense I have ever seen in my life. Um. Yeah, so, like,
like the dude literally tried to flee three times, he
drew his knife after by the third time he was
blinded by having a shirt puld and assaulted by a
group he had no other choice. Yeah. Yeah, he did
exactly what you're supposed to do in that situation and
repeatedly tried to flee and what he did and he
(07:02):
stabbed Ah motherfucker, And you can't, I I can't. He
did nothing wrong in my in my opinion, the d's opinion. Yeah,
we're all probably better off for it. But yeah, there's
this kind of established Uh, there was this established sort
of cycle of show up a bunch of weird Republican
politicians that you've never heard of before, give speeches. Uh,
(07:25):
you go and kind of wander around, and then the
Proud Boys come out and they funk around. Uh, and
sometimes other groups too, like January the night before January six,
there were people from NSC one who were hanging out,
trying to cause trouble, getting in altercations all their normal
(07:46):
ship and so yeah, there's this kind of like general
mix of groups. January six shifted the paradigm on that
a lot. And I think that's the big thing for
this weekend is we don't really know it's gonna look like, Yeah,
can you talk about kind of what has kind of
the event promotion looked like from the right, Like what
(08:08):
have they what messages have they been putting out to
promote this event with? So, yeah, a lot of like
the bigger groups have been fairly explicitly saying like don't
go officially. Unofficially is a bit of a different story
and fairness, it's worth noting that prior to UM the
(08:30):
United Rally and Charlottesville, the Proud Boys were saying don't go,
and an awful lot of their most violent members were
at Unite the Right in Charlottesville. You know, it's some
some of this is a plausible deniability game. Yeah, So
like the official Proud Boys telegram channel was like, oh,
this is I mean in different words, but we're pretty
much like this is a honeypot, this is a trap,
(08:51):
this is an op don't go. UM. But also like
we've seen activity that really suggests otherwise. Yeah, Um, whether
it's like smaller, more local groups saying that they want
to go, or uh, streamers and journalists using the word
lightly to who have pretty close relationships with these groups,
(09:15):
hiring extra stringers for the weekend or looking like they're
preparing to report on something big. Yeah, the kind of
the I know, we've talked a little bit um online
with some of our colleagues, and there's definitely a mixed
a mixed a mixed opinion on how big the event
is going to be and who's all going to be
(09:38):
there and what kind of their goal is, which makes
kind of everything all the more tense because you know,
it's almost easier to when we know what it's going
to be, like we like we have a good grasp
what's gonna happen, and this we're not really sure. Um
do you do you know, has there been any kind
of response from like local DC officials, like like law
enforcement or anything about what they're gonna do at this gathering?
(10:01):
So I did see Capital Police is planning to put
the fence back up. Um, probably a good idea, yeah, yeah,
which like will cover the capital. But there's also a
problem with the fence going up, which is the back
of the fence goes right up to the end of
the Black Lives Matter plaza in d c which has
(10:22):
been used as kind of a rallying point for UH
anti fascist activists. And when that fence is up, it's
just it's a funnel. The so it goes like this
is an of visual medium. There's a street uh and
that's where Black Lives Matter plause is and there's only
(10:42):
two exits, and both those exits lead to hotels that
Proud Boys and Chud's love to stay in. So what happens,
almost without fail is people go and hang out in
the plaza. You know, Chud's come down the streets. Police
form a line and it's pretty much a pre made
all right. So that's like not good. It's good for
(11:06):
the capital, but it's not good for the people that
will be on the ground, Yeah, because they're also as
is most of these events. Um, there has been some
organizing locally and even you know UH anti fashions from
around kind of the country trying to like put out
advice and feelers and like what to do for the
specific gathering. UM, And I know there's been there's been
(11:28):
a decent amount of you know, there's there's always like
debate and conflict of around how much to show up,
where to show up. You know how proact people should be. Um,
but because this is the first big rally since j six,
I feel like there's a lot of people. I feel
it's much more important, and like the people that like,
you know, there's there's there's like there's like a heightened
(11:50):
sense around the specific thing. Um. Do you know, like
how many people are kind of roughly planning to show
up on like the anti fashion side. It's really hard
to tell, um d C anti fascist actions. I've seen,
you know, a couple dozen people in block towards close
(12:11):
to a hundred. I would um, from what I've heard,
the kind of main counter demo that's happening is uh
definitely less radical and it's kind of trying to establish
sort of a community space thing. Uh So I would say,
I don't know, expect around fifty like people who are
(12:34):
there to throw hands, yeah, and a lot more people
who are just kind of there. I mean, it's it's this, Uh,
it's this thing we saw. I was in d C
for Unite the Rite to you know, the second rally,
and it it didn't turn into much of a thing.
You know. I think because of the preparation, the expectation,
(12:57):
and I guess I'm interesting and if you think I'm
wrong on this, but my current expectation is that maybe
that might be the most likely outcome because because of
the degree of and the unexpected event already occurred and
was awful, I'm not expecting anyone will be given free leash.
You know. Yeah, I could definitely see that sort of
(13:20):
Unite the Right to scenario playing out, especially because it
is very similar, like there was this massive shocking event
that kind of yeah, yeah, and so then people will
I think the only big difference is like in the
aftermath of Unite the Right, you kind of saw at
(13:42):
times of misguided media focus, but still a media focus
on anti fascist activists as playing a unique role when
you didn't have that for January six, And I think
that's that's really one of my bigger worries is less
so kind of clashes between chud's and uh anti fascists,
(14:04):
which is still I mean, you know, that's always a
thing that may happen, but also like you have to
think these chuds that are coming when they look at
DC police, they see someone, they see the people who
killed Ashley Babbitt. When the DC police look at these chudd's,
(14:25):
they're the people who beat someone beat one of their
co workers to death. And you know, like there's Capital police,
not same as DC Metro police, but like in the
minds of both these groups, that doesn't really matter. And
I worry about the tension there. I like, I don't
(14:48):
care if they make each other. You know, if the
Proud Boys and cops mace each other, then that's a
great day for me. But if it escalates further, and
you know, we're seeing that more and more the past,
was it past two kind of major right wing rallies
(15:08):
in the Pacific Northwest have had shots fired. Yep, yep. Yeah.
Every every recent PMW protest has involved gunfire. Yeah, and
like the one the August one had, I guess, I
guess you could call it a legitimate change, Yeah, yeah,
(15:30):
a casual gunfight. I mean, the the start of it
was not legitimate. The right winger who fired was not legitimate. Um,
But the two people on the left who responded, we're
doing so in self defense. Now, what happened a couple
of weeks later, from the video that's come out, was
not self defense. It was a guy shooting at somebody
pursuing them from like fifty feet back. You know, it
(15:53):
was not legally what you would call self defense for
certain Yeah, and that kind of the precedent that that's set,
which I think it's happened a few enough times that
we can't really say that it's it's the norm or
anything like that, but it's still it's an escalation. It's
something absolutely is did Like if that, if that had
(16:16):
happened in when Unite the Right happened like that would
have been unprecedented. It's very frightening, you know, and it
it should be. It doesn't matter what you think about
the morality of shooting tiny you know or whatever. Exchanges
of fire becoming more common is a threat to everybody,
(16:39):
and it is something that should concern everybody. Yeah, I mean,
it reminds me a lot of And this was kind
of the impetus of the first season of it could
happen here, but like the early days of something like
the Syrians of Award, where it went from protests to
exchanges of gunfire too. You know what it is. Now,
(17:14):
do you think DC specific gun laws um will make
gunfire in DC a little bit less likely? Do you think?
I do? Like still, like the police always have that
capacity if they feel Um, you know if if they
choose to, but more specific on like the right between people,
I don't know, it's like no boogs are going to
show up or whatever. Um, what kind of talk do
(17:35):
you see around firearms? So yeah, kind of just from experience,
I think my worry with DC's gun laws is only
one side will be armed every time that Chud's come
to d C. I mean, they are obviously carry I mean,
every single one of them is print is printing. You
(17:55):
can tell that they have firearms on them. They don't
really try to hide it, and none of them have
ever I mean, I guess apart from Tario getting arrested
for illegal magazines, like, none of them have really faced
any consequences for that. And the general fear among people
(18:17):
on the left is well, even if I do come
and I carry for self defense, if I get arrested
for something unrelated, that will enhance whatever charges I get. Yeah. No,
it's sketchy and it's Um, I don't I'm not convinced
in the situation d C is in specifically that shoving
(18:38):
up with a fucking firearm is the right call. You know,
I'm not in this business to lecture people, but I'm
not convinced that's going to help. In the Pacific Northwest,
we've seen situations where people with weapons as on the
twenty two, defended themselves and others. And we've seen situations
in which people on the web with weapons on the
left escalated things. So it's not a it's never a
(18:59):
zero game, you know, it's not. It's not a simple issue.
Right again, is a neutral tool, you know. Yeah, And
I don't want to, like, I don't want it to
come off like I'm encouraging, you know, every person in
block to show up with a long gun like that,
because that would be a fucking disaster most likely. But
(19:21):
also like I I don't like the idea of, you know,
looking at a line of Proud Boys or something and
knowing every single one of these people has a gun,
and I do not. That's an imbalance of force that
I don't like when thing, if things do escalate, No,
(19:41):
that that's completely reasonable in my opinion. But yeah, I mean,
I think the big thing is just there's so many unknowns. Uh,
you know, we've never really there's not much of a
historical precedent for group tries to overthrow the government shows
back up in d C months later or elements of
(20:06):
the same kind of ideology. Yeah, we just don't know.
I mean, even like I think that Unite the Right
to example is similar, but also like markedly different enough
that I don't know if it's an all encompassing tool
for like this is what it's gonna look like. Yeah,
(20:28):
is there any like specific players that you know is
going to show up or or have like said that
they're going to show up. So one that I kind
of worry about is um, Oh, I'm gonna get fucking
tweets for this, God damnit. Um. So there's a group
in Virginia that you may have heard of BLM seven
(20:49):
five seven. Yeah, I know you're talking about. Yeah, they
are based out of the Virginia Beach area, and they
are the biggest pain in the ass ever um they
work with. They claim to be a Black Lives Matter organization.
The local Black Lives Matter organizations have denounced them. They
(21:12):
work with Boogloo boys. They were very tight with Mike
Dunn before he uh snitched and dumped off the face
of the earth. Yea um. And then yeah, they come
and I don't like the idea of them coming to
a town that is not familiar with them because like
they come to Richmond, for example, and people are like, oh,
(21:34):
there's been abun seven. We don't funk with them, but
they come, you know, they come to a town or
groups like this like uh n f a C there
not not fucking around. Coalition tried to come to d C.
And I these groups that are gonna be armed, are
gonna want to escalate and are gonna kind of try
(21:54):
to slide in to like a counter demo or stick
around like the more left leaning parts of the crowd,
and then could very quickly escalate things. So they're one
that I'm worried about. Some local Virginia Militia movement players
(22:16):
have been chatting about it. I haven't seen really that
much in the way of like definitive statements that they're
gonna go um and those guys don't really worry me.
There a bunch of nerds who like to play dress
up in the woods mostly, But yeah, it's again, it's
just like these kind of unknowns. Yeah, so just like
(22:38):
not knowing who's going to show up and what they're
gonna do and where theyre be and yeah, yeah, like
and this was a thing, definitely it reminds me a
lot of the First Stop to Steel rally, where we
had more concrete groups saying we're gonna be there. There's
a lot more chatter about it on social media, but
(22:58):
it was still kind of like I don't know, like
what range of the sort of right wing ideological spectrum
will be here, Like I know, you know Q and
on your que and on uncle will be there. But like,
for example, on November Uh, Jason Kessler was there, the
organizer of Unite the Right. I literally bumped into Jason Kessler,
(23:23):
like I was walking and my shoulder hit him and
I looked up and I was like, oh, sorry, dude,
and then I just kind of stopped and I was like, oh, ship,
I recognize you. Yeah, you're that famous piece of ship. Yeah.
But yeah, So like it's kind of that same thing
where we don't we really just don't have that much
(23:45):
intel and it seems like, you know, people with access
to more streams of information than us, Like the FEDS
have been saying for I guess a couple of months now,
like we're monitoring this situation where like preparing to stop
another January six, which take it with a grain of salt,
(24:06):
it is the beds, but also like part of me,
a lot of the worry I get from this is
people that I know no more than I do reacting
to it like chud streamers hiring stringers, FEDS saying like
announcing months before that it's a situation that they're preparing for,
(24:40):
a lot of people are very interested in what's going
to happen, and I think people are definitely preparing for
a lot of different different outcomes, and that makes any
kind of resistance to it hard because you don't know
if you're over if you're over preparing, under preparing. You
don't know if you'll have what you'll do. Your preparations
are too aggressive and not aggressive enough. Yeah, Yeah, and
the way trying to like, you know, feel it out
(25:01):
once you're there is more scary because once you're there
in person, a lot of communications breakdown between other you know,
other activists that that's what happened in like the last
big rally in Portland is people try to know change
up plans once they got to the spot, and it
kind of made everything a lot a lot more challenging
because it's hard to a lot of a lot of
people in block don't have their phone on them. It's
(25:22):
just it's hard to get ride. It's you know, any
kind of any kind of impromptu organizing at the site,
it's always gonna be way more challenged. They've been trying
to figure this stuff out at home, and yeah, that's
just kind of I don't know, it's it's I think
I think the United Right to background is useful for
like a big event after you know, a previous event
(25:42):
that had a lot of coverage and had a lot
of talk about it because it had, you know, a
disastrous outcome. And then I think looking at you know,
looking at November four in December, t um are also
they are also kind of valuable indicators. Has there been
any have you seen anything around the grappers, are like
any of the Fuentes crew showing up to this or
(26:04):
they are they trying to just are they Are they
trying to like keep good optics? I guess I as
far as I've seen, they're mostly trying to keep good
optics around us um they as they also kind of
fall into the category of like people I'm not super
worried about like some of them. Yeah, but in like
(26:26):
a street fight situation, in a street fight less so
I'm not worried about a groper. Yeah, the most violent
encounter I've ever had with a groper was one that
was probably five ft tall, following me around and calling
me a soy boy for thirty minutes. Yeah. What I'm
more concerned about is is Graper is kind of following
(26:47):
the insale terrorism tradition of you know, skinny of skinny
white guys getting access to weapons and than than doing
something with the gun is dangerous. Yeah. Yeah, like that're
not going to beat Yeah, here finished what you were saying. Yeah,
I'm just saying, like, you know, all all of the
(27:07):
Grapers I've seen, they're not going to beat me in
a fist fight because they're all even even more not
even more likest sh But yeah, and and that and that. Yeah, Yeah,
I think that's kind of another thing that's you know,
it's always a possibility of these things. Like I always say,
like the worst possible outcome is someone someone starts shooting,
(27:31):
like a firefight is always the worst way this could go.
But with the sort of optics surrounding this, I I
think there's definitely space for more extreme people, uh specifically
more accelerationist minded people to try to start something to
(27:55):
try to cause some ship. I mean, like I said,
I'm in Virginia. I think of the Richmond gun rally
in the lobby day in what was that twenty nineteen
beginning of I Forget All Time is a flat circle
(28:15):
to me now, but um, the members of the base
that we're intercepted on their way to Richmond. Uh. I
think about that situation and how other people and other
groups that we will not talk about on pod could
see an opportunity here. Yeah, And I think that's I
(28:38):
think that's more likely happening in somewhere like DC than
it is in Portland's right, because in Portland we have
a pretty good grip on who shows up and why
they show up. The East coast, the south, um, northeast, Southeast,
they have a lot more groups with interest with you know,
obscurity ologies that are more thinking, more are prone to
(29:01):
those types of to those types of like um, more
insurgent attacks. And I think people are on the West coast. Yeah.
And I think another thing that kind of amplifies that is,
like you said, like Portland has kind of an established
infrastructure of chud fuckery, you know. I mean, I'm on
(29:24):
the other side of the country, and I know the
familiar faces of Portland's bullshit, and we we do have
that to an extent. But d C brings people from
all across the country. I was meeting people in the
metro from everywhere from Tennessee to Kansas to California. And
(29:47):
when people are coming in from such a broad range
of places, there's a lot more uncertainty. Yeah, well, I'm
not sure and anything else you want to mention about
kind of what you expect at this rally and any
I don't know general advice has since you've been at
the past three versions. Yeah, so, I mean, if you're
(30:08):
in the DC area or you're nearby and you're comfortable
with it and physically able to do so, I show up. Um.
The one thing that we do know for sure about
these events is that the more bodies we have, the
less likely it is for people to be able to
(30:31):
pray on someone walking home from work or houseless person
just trying to sleep. Yeah, the more bodies that we have,
the better it is. Um, if you are either unable
to come or you don't feel comfortable coming, I know
that there will be jail support, mutual aid efforts. UH
(30:56):
and Garrison I can send you to some links to
local d C orgs if you want to throw it
in the show notes, sure, um, but yeah, just and
if you're gonna go, be prepared, have have a buddy,
uh lock up, bring uh bringing I fack, and get
(31:19):
ready to party. Yeah. I think that's one of the
things you mentioned, is like more numbers helps in the
case of it's less likely they'll be like roaming attacks,
because that's what we've seen at a lot of these
rallies is that sometimes they don't ever like actually cause
trouble at where people are, you know, like where the
where the people are. They wait until people are walking
(31:40):
away or going back to their car, or if there's
no one like that, they just find some random person
on the street. You know, we saw a lot of
that in d C of of Proud Boys just finding
kind of people in the area that they thought looked
like Antifa quote unquote and then just attacking them. Um.
So you know, the less scattered people are, um, the
less likely to get kind of those ruling attacks. Yeah.
(32:03):
I think. I mean, it's it's always hard to speculate
on the event, on an event that hasn't happened yet,
but I believe by the time by the time they
see airs, it'll be happening tomorrow. So as Saturday THEO.
Do you want to plug anything? Yeah, you can find
me on Twitter, um at THEO Hansen THEO with a zero. Uh.
(32:24):
Listen to my podcast Terrorism Bad. We look through portrayals
of terrorism and extremism in popular media. See how it
holds up to the real world. Um, trying to think
of anything else. I'll be there on Saturday. I'll be
live tweeting the event. I'm not live tweeting that dead
(32:46):
or otherwise incapacitated or I don't have cell service. Service
is always horrible at these things. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah,
it's a constant problem. Yeah. They were blocking signals on
January six on the cow at the lawn, and when
I stepped off, I had like thirteen texts from all
my friends that were like, hey, text me if you're
still alive. It's really hard to tell what's going on,
(33:10):
you know, when you're when you're like whether or not
it's like a cell signal problem, or if it's somebody
like targeting you in particular, it's frustrating. Yeah, all right, well,
thank you Cel, thank you for giving us the rundown
on Saturday's activities. UM, I hope you don't get shot,
thank you. I hope I do not as well. That's
(33:31):
my general feeling towards anyone who shows up on uh,
you know, on the eighth in d C. I hope
you don't get shot. Do your best. Yeah, and if
you do get shot, you know what to do about it? Well, yeah,
have a have a have a care a minute, you know,
have some cell locks. Yeah, that's ideal, But not getting
(33:52):
shot is better, so you cannot remember what Try not
to get shot, all right, Thanks for having me on guys.
Nice to meet you, Robert and Sophie to meet you.
You can follow us that Happened Here pod on Twitter
and Instagram and at cool Zone Media for all the things.
And we'll be back Monday
What's a problem. It could happen here the show where
I'm a problem. I'm on vacation legally. You're not on
vacation allegedly legally, But okay in Shelah, I'm drunk, Garrison,
you're in charge. Now figure it out? Great, Hi, what
(00:27):
it could happen here? Today? We are talking with somebody
if you've listened to the past two episodes, you should
actually know, uh, THEO, who is a journalist and researcher,
and we are going to be discussing plans for an
upcoming rally in Washington, d C. That's has a lot
(00:48):
of that seems good. Yeah, this is us. Never happened
when what happened last time? What happened last time? I
did this? I don't. I historically only pay attention to
things that happened after May and before December. So I'm
unaware of anything bad ever happening at DC. Well, something
(01:10):
bad stuff happened there last time. It got it got
a little spicy, Um, okay, spicy, But it's not like
they tried to overthrow the government murder elected leaders, right,
that is what they are actually having too much fun. Yeah,
they're just boys. They were just proud of their boys,
a little carried away building, all of the building, that
(01:32):
big hanging contraption whatever it's called gallows gallows. Yeah, anyway,
we're talking THEO. Do you want to want to introduce yourself? Yeah, Hey, guys,
I'm THEO idealist and a researcher. I'm based out of Virginia.
Allegedly i end up covering a lot of events in
(01:53):
DC because of that, and that's my plans for this weekend. Yeah,
do you want to it? Do you want to give
us like an overview of what rallies and d C
have been like the past, let's say, like the past year.
Oh boy do I yeah, let's just just for background. Yeah, so,
(02:15):
like pretty much immediately post election, as the whole kind
of stop the steel thing got kicked into gear. Um,
November fourteen, there was a rally in d C. UM,
and then there was one December twelve, and then there
is finally one as most people are probably aware, on
January six. January six, you know, obviously got the bulk
(02:38):
of the media coverage. UM. But November fourteenth and especially
December twelve were very violent situations in general. UM Proud Boys.
General Chudd's a bunch of oath keepers, bunch of people's
confused mems and pat ups showed up. Um would kind
(03:03):
of wander Yeah, yeah, pretty pretty fucked up. I know
some people who were there when they did, and it's
I don't know, it's sad, like it's really bleak. I
was there with the people that you know, yeah, oh good, yeah,
(03:25):
so you I mean that, It's just it's so fucking um.
I don't know the extent of the disinformation, right, it's
hard when you're talking about this to like express a
lot of sympathy for some of these people. And I'm
not sympathetic towards their aims. I'm not trying to do
the New York Times like let's talk to the Trump
voter down the street, but like a lot of them
are just like they're fucking dumb people who bought into
(03:48):
some bullshit and it destroyed them and their relationships with
their families in some cases cost them their lives, and
like you don't have to sympathize with them to be like, yeah,
that's bleak as ship know. Yeah, And I think you
see that with the d c rallies really more so
than like uh Portlands Proud Boy event, for example, that
(04:10):
is not at all a gathering of like the masses.
That's that's a specific group of pieces of ship. Yeah yeah,
And like you'd have absolutely like units of proud Boys
or oath keepers. We had three percenters some local Virginia militias,
and they'd kind of be wandering around. But during the
day itself, you'd normally see like speakers. Alex Jones was there. Um,
(04:31):
got to meet him. That was fun. Um, that's always
a meeting Alex. He's a great guy. It was really fun.
He's his neck. It's hard to exaggerate how how he
is just as read in person. He's so red. And
(04:52):
as a guy who's good at strangling, it seems like
he would be hard to strangle. Oh nearly impossible. Like
it's so big. It's such like it's like a fucking
train car. Like it's ridiculous how big that man's neck is. Look,
most people aren't hard to strangle. Alex Jones would be.
That's not praising him, that's just being honest. So during
(05:14):
the day there would be speakers, you know, Alex Jones,
and you kind of see people split up into whatever
they're specific brand of fucker. He is there's like groups
of nerdy looking gropers. Um, there were some trad cats
wearing robes. Those guys were fun, but yeah, a lot
of it's you know, confused, like boomers on Facebook, and
(05:36):
kind of to Robert's point, like I normally didn't go,
you know, wearing press credentials because I value knives being
outside of me and not inside of Yeah, it's it's
good to not get stabbed. Most people appreciate that. Yeah, yeah,
it's one of my favorite things. And so I'd get
to like talking to these people, especially the older ones,
because I take the Metro into the city and they
(05:57):
are they're just confused, old people who have gotten in
over their heads. But yeah, then like the sun would
set and that's when the Proud Boys would really start
getting into ship. November they stabbed. I don't know if
I'm remembering this correctly, so feel free to fact check me,
(06:19):
but I believe it was two people on uh they
cracked a girl's skull. And then on December twelve they
stabbed one other person and Jeremy Bertino got blayed on
the street. He shared he shared in and the d
A elected not to prosecute because that was the clearest
(06:41):
case of self defense I have ever seen in my life. Um. Yeah, so, like,
like the dude literally tried to flee three times, he
drew his knife after by the third time he was
blinded by having a shirt puld and assaulted by a
group he had no other choice. Yeah. Yeah, he did
exactly what you're supposed to do in that situation and
repeatedly tried to flee and what he did and he
(07:02):
stabbed Ah motherfucker, And you can't, I I can't. He
did nothing wrong in my in my opinion, the d's opinion. Yeah,
we're all probably better off for it. But yeah, there's
this kind of established Uh, there was this established sort
of cycle of show up a bunch of weird Republican
politicians that you've never heard of before, give speeches. Uh,
(07:25):
you go and kind of wander around, and then the
Proud Boys come out and they funk around. Uh, and
sometimes other groups too, like January the night before January six,
there were people from NSC one who were hanging out,
trying to cause trouble, getting in altercations all their normal
(07:46):
ship and so yeah, there's this kind of like general
mix of groups. January six shifted the paradigm on that
a lot. And I think that's the big thing for
this weekend is we don't really know it's gonna look like, Yeah,
can you talk about kind of what has kind of
the event promotion looked like from the right, Like what
(08:08):
have they what messages have they been putting out to
promote this event with? So, yeah, a lot of like
the bigger groups have been fairly explicitly saying like don't
go officially. Unofficially is a bit of a different story
and fairness, it's worth noting that prior to UM the
(08:30):
United Rally and Charlottesville, the Proud Boys were saying don't go,
and an awful lot of their most violent members were
at Unite the Right in Charlottesville. You know, it's some
some of this is a plausible deniability game. Yeah, So
like the official Proud Boys telegram channel was like, oh,
this is I mean in different words, but we're pretty
much like this is a honeypot, this is a trap,
(08:51):
this is an op don't go. UM. But also like
we've seen activity that really suggests otherwise. Yeah, Um, whether
it's like smaller, more local groups saying that they want
to go, or uh, streamers and journalists using the word
lightly to who have pretty close relationships with these groups,
(09:15):
hiring extra stringers for the weekend or looking like they're
preparing to report on something big. Yeah, the kind of
the I know, we've talked a little bit um online
with some of our colleagues, and there's definitely a mixed
a mixed a mixed opinion on how big the event
is going to be and who's all going to be
(09:38):
there and what kind of their goal is, which makes
kind of everything all the more tense because you know,
it's almost easier to when we know what it's going
to be, like we like we have a good grasp
what's gonna happen, and this we're not really sure. Um
do you do you know, has there been any kind
of response from like local DC officials, like like law
enforcement or anything about what they're gonna do at this gathering?
(10:01):
So I did see Capital Police is planning to put
the fence back up. Um, probably a good idea, yeah, yeah,
which like will cover the capital. But there's also a
problem with the fence going up, which is the back
of the fence goes right up to the end of
the Black Lives Matter plaza in d c which has
(10:22):
been used as kind of a rallying point for UH
anti fascist activists. And when that fence is up, it's
just it's a funnel. The so it goes like this
is an of visual medium. There's a street uh and
that's where Black Lives Matter plause is and there's only
(10:42):
two exits, and both those exits lead to hotels that
Proud Boys and Chud's love to stay in. So what happens,
almost without fail is people go and hang out in
the plaza. You know, Chud's come down the streets. Police
form a line and it's pretty much a pre made
all right. So that's like not good. It's good for
(11:06):
the capital, but it's not good for the people that
will be on the ground, Yeah, because they're also as
is most of these events. Um, there has been some
organizing locally and even you know UH anti fashions from
around kind of the country trying to like put out
advice and feelers and like what to do for the
specific gathering. UM, And I know there's been there's been
(11:28):
a decent amount of you know, there's there's always like
debate and conflict of around how much to show up,
where to show up. You know how proact people should be. Um,
but because this is the first big rally since j six,
I feel like there's a lot of people. I feel
it's much more important, and like the people that like,
you know, there's there's there's like there's like a heightened
(11:50):
sense around the specific thing. Um. Do you know, like
how many people are kind of roughly planning to show
up on like the anti fashion side. It's really hard
to tell, um d C anti fascist actions. I've seen,
you know, a couple dozen people in block towards close
(12:11):
to a hundred. I would um, from what I've heard,
the kind of main counter demo that's happening is uh
definitely less radical and it's kind of trying to establish
sort of a community space thing. Uh So I would say,
I don't know, expect around fifty like people who are
(12:34):
there to throw hands, yeah, and a lot more people
who are just kind of there. I mean, it's it's this, Uh,
it's this thing we saw. I was in d C
for Unite the Rite to you know, the second rally,
and it it didn't turn into much of a thing.
You know. I think because of the preparation, the expectation,
(12:57):
and I guess I'm interesting and if you think I'm
wrong on this, but my current expectation is that maybe
that might be the most likely outcome because because of
the degree of and the unexpected event already occurred and
was awful, I'm not expecting anyone will be given free leash.
You know. Yeah, I could definitely see that sort of
(13:20):
Unite the Right to scenario playing out, especially because it
is very similar, like there was this massive shocking event
that kind of yeah, yeah, and so then people will
I think the only big difference is like in the
aftermath of Unite the Right, you kind of saw at
(13:42):
times of misguided media focus, but still a media focus
on anti fascist activists as playing a unique role when
you didn't have that for January six, And I think
that's that's really one of my bigger worries is less
so kind of clashes between chud's and uh anti fascists,
(14:04):
which is still I mean, you know, that's always a
thing that may happen, but also like you have to
think these chuds that are coming when they look at
DC police, they see someone, they see the people who
killed Ashley Babbitt. When the DC police look at these chudd's,
(14:25):
they're the people who beat someone beat one of their
co workers to death. And you know, like there's Capital police,
not same as DC Metro police, but like in the
minds of both these groups, that doesn't really matter. And
I worry about the tension there. I like, I don't
(14:48):
care if they make each other. You know, if the
Proud Boys and cops mace each other, then that's a
great day for me. But if it escalates further, and
you know, we're seeing that more and more the past,
was it past two kind of major right wing rallies
(15:08):
in the Pacific Northwest have had shots fired. Yep, yep. Yeah.
Every every recent PMW protest has involved gunfire. Yeah, and
like the one the August one had, I guess, I
guess you could call it a legitimate change, Yeah, yeah,
(15:30):
a casual gunfight. I mean, the the start of it
was not legitimate. The right winger who fired was not legitimate. Um,
But the two people on the left who responded, we're
doing so in self defense. Now, what happened a couple
of weeks later, from the video that's come out, was
not self defense. It was a guy shooting at somebody
pursuing them from like fifty feet back. You know, it
(15:53):
was not legally what you would call self defense for
certain Yeah, and that kind of the precedent that that's set,
which I think it's happened a few enough times that
we can't really say that it's it's the norm or
anything like that, but it's still it's an escalation. It's
something absolutely is did Like if that, if that had
(16:16):
happened in when Unite the Right happened like that would
have been unprecedented. It's very frightening, you know, and it
it should be. It doesn't matter what you think about
the morality of shooting tiny you know or whatever. Exchanges
of fire becoming more common is a threat to everybody,
(16:39):
and it is something that should concern everybody. Yeah, I mean,
it reminds me a lot of And this was kind
of the impetus of the first season of it could
happen here, but like the early days of something like
the Syrians of Award, where it went from protests to
exchanges of gunfire too. You know what it is. Now,
(17:14):
do you think DC specific gun laws um will make
gunfire in DC a little bit less likely? Do you think?
I do? Like still, like the police always have that
capacity if they feel Um, you know if if they
choose to, but more specific on like the right between people,
I don't know, it's like no boogs are going to
show up or whatever. Um, what kind of talk do
(17:35):
you see around firearms? So yeah, kind of just from experience,
I think my worry with DC's gun laws is only
one side will be armed every time that Chud's come
to d C. I mean, they are obviously carry I mean,
every single one of them is print is printing. You
(17:55):
can tell that they have firearms on them. They don't
really try to hide it, and none of them have
ever I mean, I guess apart from Tario getting arrested
for illegal magazines, like, none of them have really faced
any consequences for that. And the general fear among people
(18:17):
on the left is well, even if I do come
and I carry for self defense, if I get arrested
for something unrelated, that will enhance whatever charges I get. Yeah. No,
it's sketchy and it's Um, I don't I'm not convinced
in the situation d C is in specifically that shoving
(18:38):
up with a fucking firearm is the right call. You know,
I'm not in this business to lecture people, but I'm
not convinced that's going to help. In the Pacific Northwest,
we've seen situations where people with weapons as on the
twenty two, defended themselves and others. And we've seen situations
in which people on the web with weapons on the
left escalated things. So it's not a it's never a
(18:59):
zero game, you know, it's not. It's not a simple issue.
Right again, is a neutral tool, you know. Yeah, And
I don't want to, like, I don't want it to
come off like I'm encouraging, you know, every person in
block to show up with a long gun like that,
because that would be a fucking disaster most likely. But
(19:21):
also like I I don't like the idea of, you know,
looking at a line of Proud Boys or something and
knowing every single one of these people has a gun,
and I do not. That's an imbalance of force that
I don't like when thing, if things do escalate, No,
(19:41):
that that's completely reasonable in my opinion. But yeah, I mean,
I think the big thing is just there's so many unknowns. Uh,
you know, we've never really there's not much of a
historical precedent for group tries to overthrow the government shows
back up in d C months later or elements of
(20:06):
the same kind of ideology. Yeah, we just don't know.
I mean, even like I think that Unite the Right
to example is similar, but also like markedly different enough
that I don't know if it's an all encompassing tool
for like this is what it's gonna look like. Yeah,
(20:28):
is there any like specific players that you know is
going to show up or or have like said that
they're going to show up. So one that I kind
of worry about is um, Oh, I'm gonna get fucking
tweets for this, God damnit. Um. So there's a group
in Virginia that you may have heard of BLM seven
(20:49):
five seven. Yeah, I know you're talking about. Yeah, they
are based out of the Virginia Beach area, and they
are the biggest pain in the ass ever um they
work with. They claim to be a Black Lives Matter organization.
The local Black Lives Matter organizations have denounced them. They
(21:12):
work with Boogloo boys. They were very tight with Mike
Dunn before he uh snitched and dumped off the face
of the earth. Yea um. And then yeah, they come
and I don't like the idea of them coming to
a town that is not familiar with them because like
they come to Richmond, for example, and people are like, oh,
(21:34):
there's been abun seven. We don't funk with them, but
they come, you know, they come to a town or
groups like this like uh n f a C there
not not fucking around. Coalition tried to come to d C.
And I these groups that are gonna be armed, are
gonna want to escalate and are gonna kind of try
(21:54):
to slide in to like a counter demo or stick
around like the more left leaning parts of the crowd,
and then could very quickly escalate things. So they're one
that I'm worried about. Some local Virginia Militia movement players
(22:16):
have been chatting about it. I haven't seen really that
much in the way of like definitive statements that they're
gonna go um and those guys don't really worry me.
There a bunch of nerds who like to play dress
up in the woods mostly, But yeah, it's again, it's
just like these kind of unknowns. Yeah, so just like
(22:38):
not knowing who's going to show up and what they're
gonna do and where theyre be and yeah, yeah, like
and this was a thing, definitely it reminds me a
lot of the First Stop to Steel rally, where we
had more concrete groups saying we're gonna be there. There's
a lot more chatter about it on social media, but
(22:58):
it was still kind of like I don't know, like
what range of the sort of right wing ideological spectrum
will be here, Like I know, you know Q and
on your que and on uncle will be there. But like,
for example, on November Uh, Jason Kessler was there, the
organizer of Unite the Right. I literally bumped into Jason Kessler,
(23:23):
like I was walking and my shoulder hit him and
I looked up and I was like, oh, sorry, dude,
and then I just kind of stopped and I was like, oh, ship,
I recognize you. Yeah, you're that famous piece of ship. Yeah.
But yeah, So like it's kind of that same thing
where we don't we really just don't have that much
(23:45):
intel and it seems like, you know, people with access
to more streams of information than us, Like the FEDS
have been saying for I guess a couple of months now,
like we're monitoring this situation where like preparing to stop
another January six, which take it with a grain of salt,
(24:06):
it is the beds, but also like part of me,
a lot of the worry I get from this is
people that I know no more than I do reacting
to it like chud streamers hiring stringers, FEDS saying like
announcing months before that it's a situation that they're preparing for,
(24:40):
a lot of people are very interested in what's going
to happen, and I think people are definitely preparing for
a lot of different different outcomes, and that makes any
kind of resistance to it hard because you don't know
if you're over if you're over preparing, under preparing. You
don't know if you'll have what you'll do. Your preparations
are too aggressive and not aggressive enough. Yeah, Yeah, and
the way trying to like, you know, feel it out
(25:01):
once you're there is more scary because once you're there
in person, a lot of communications breakdown between other you know,
other activists that that's what happened in like the last
big rally in Portland is people try to know change
up plans once they got to the spot, and it
kind of made everything a lot a lot more challenging
because it's hard to a lot of a lot of
people in block don't have their phone on them. It's
(25:22):
just it's hard to get ride. It's you know, any
kind of any kind of impromptu organizing at the site,
it's always gonna be way more challenged. They've been trying
to figure this stuff out at home, and yeah, that's
just kind of I don't know, it's it's I think
I think the United Right to background is useful for
like a big event after you know, a previous event
(25:42):
that had a lot of coverage and had a lot
of talk about it because it had, you know, a
disastrous outcome. And then I think looking at you know,
looking at November four in December, t um are also
they are also kind of valuable indicators. Has there been
any have you seen anything around the grappers, are like
any of the Fuentes crew showing up to this or
(26:04):
they are they trying to just are they Are they
trying to like keep good optics? I guess I as
far as I've seen, they're mostly trying to keep good
optics around us um they as they also kind of
fall into the category of like people I'm not super
worried about like some of them. Yeah, but in like
(26:26):
a street fight situation, in a street fight less so
I'm not worried about a groper. Yeah, the most violent
encounter I've ever had with a groper was one that
was probably five ft tall, following me around and calling
me a soy boy for thirty minutes. Yeah. What I'm
more concerned about is is Graper is kind of following
(26:47):
the insale terrorism tradition of you know, skinny of skinny
white guys getting access to weapons and than than doing
something with the gun is dangerous. Yeah. Yeah, like that're
not going to beat Yeah, here finished what you were saying. Yeah,
I'm just saying, like, you know, all all of the
(27:07):
Grapers I've seen, they're not going to beat me in
a fist fight because they're all even even more not
even more likest sh But yeah, and and that and that. Yeah, Yeah,
I think that's kind of another thing that's you know,
it's always a possibility of these things. Like I always say,
like the worst possible outcome is someone someone starts shooting,
(27:31):
like a firefight is always the worst way this could go.
But with the sort of optics surrounding this, I I
think there's definitely space for more extreme people, uh specifically
more accelerationist minded people to try to start something to
(27:55):
try to cause some ship. I mean, like I said,
I'm in Virginia. I think of the Richmond gun rally
in the lobby day in what was that twenty nineteen
beginning of I Forget All Time is a flat circle
(28:15):
to me now, but um, the members of the base
that we're intercepted on their way to Richmond. Uh. I
think about that situation and how other people and other
groups that we will not talk about on pod could
see an opportunity here. Yeah, And I think that's I
(28:38):
think that's more likely happening in somewhere like DC than
it is in Portland's right, because in Portland we have
a pretty good grip on who shows up and why
they show up. The East coast, the south, um, northeast, Southeast,
they have a lot more groups with interest with you know,
obscurity ologies that are more thinking, more are prone to
(29:01):
those types of to those types of like um, more
insurgent attacks. And I think people are on the West coast. Yeah.
And I think another thing that kind of amplifies that is,
like you said, like Portland has kind of an established
infrastructure of chud fuckery, you know. I mean, I'm on
(29:24):
the other side of the country, and I know the
familiar faces of Portland's bullshit, and we we do have
that to an extent. But d C brings people from
all across the country. I was meeting people in the
metro from everywhere from Tennessee to Kansas to California. And
(29:47):
when people are coming in from such a broad range
of places, there's a lot more uncertainty. Yeah, well, I'm
not sure and anything else you want to mention about
kind of what you expect at this rally and any
I don't know general advice has since you've been at
the past three versions. Yeah, so, I mean, if you're
(30:08):
in the DC area or you're nearby and you're comfortable
with it and physically able to do so, I show up. Um.
The one thing that we do know for sure about
these events is that the more bodies we have, the
less likely it is for people to be able to
(30:31):
pray on someone walking home from work or houseless person
just trying to sleep. Yeah, the more bodies that we have,
the better it is. Um, if you are either unable
to come or you don't feel comfortable coming, I know
that there will be jail support, mutual aid efforts. UH
(30:56):
and Garrison I can send you to some links to
local d C orgs if you want to throw it
in the show notes, sure, um, but yeah, just and
if you're gonna go, be prepared, have have a buddy,
uh lock up, bring uh bringing I fack, and get
(31:19):
ready to party. Yeah. I think that's one of the
things you mentioned, is like more numbers helps in the
case of it's less likely they'll be like roaming attacks,
because that's what we've seen at a lot of these
rallies is that sometimes they don't ever like actually cause
trouble at where people are, you know, like where the
where the people are. They wait until people are walking
(31:40):
away or going back to their car, or if there's
no one like that, they just find some random person
on the street. You know, we saw a lot of
that in d C of of Proud Boys just finding
kind of people in the area that they thought looked
like Antifa quote unquote and then just attacking them. Um.
So you know, the less scattered people are, um, the
less likely to get kind of those ruling attacks. Yeah.
(32:03):
I think. I mean, it's it's always hard to speculate
on the event, on an event that hasn't happened yet,
but I believe by the time by the time they
see airs, it'll be happening tomorrow. So as Saturday THEO.
Do you want to plug anything? Yeah, you can find
me on Twitter, um at THEO Hansen THEO with a zero. Uh.
(32:24):
Listen to my podcast Terrorism Bad. We look through portrayals
of terrorism and extremism in popular media. See how it
holds up to the real world. Um, trying to think
of anything else. I'll be there on Saturday. I'll be
live tweeting the event. I'm not live tweeting that dead
(32:46):
or otherwise incapacitated or I don't have cell service. Service
is always horrible at these things. Oh, it's awesome. Yeah,
it's a constant problem. Yeah. They were blocking signals on
January six on the cow at the lawn, and when
I stepped off, I had like thirteen texts from all
my friends that were like, hey, text me if you're
still alive. It's really hard to tell what's going on,
(33:10):
you know, when you're when you're like whether or not
it's like a cell signal problem, or if it's somebody
like targeting you in particular, it's frustrating. Yeah, all right, well,
thank you Cel, thank you for giving us the rundown
on Saturday's activities. UM, I hope you don't get shot,
thank you. I hope I do not as well. That's
(33:31):
my general feeling towards anyone who shows up on uh,
you know, on the eighth in d C. I hope
you don't get shot. Do your best. Yeah, and if
you do get shot, you know what to do about it? Well, yeah,
have a have a have a care a minute, you know,
have some cell locks. Yeah, that's ideal, But not getting
(33:52):
shot is better, so you cannot remember what Try not
to get shot, all right, Thanks for having me on guys.
Nice to meet you, Robert and Sophie to meet you.
You can follow us that Happened Here pod on Twitter
and Instagram and at cool Zone Media for all the things.
And we'll be back Monday
It Could Happen Here News
Hosts And Creators
Robert Evans
Garrison Davis
James Stout
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