June 30, 2022 • 25 mins
We talk with PHD student Noah Adams about his research into the intersection of autism and being trans.
https://www.canadahelps.org/en/charities/metropolitan-community-church-of-toronto/campaign/trans-and-proud/
https://twitter.com/noahadams
https://www.amazon.com/Trans-Autistic-Stories-Life-Intersection-ebook/dp/B08289P67Z
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison. With me
today is Chris, and today we'll be talking about something
that I was wanting to do for Pride Month but
time kind of got away from me. But we'll be
talking with Noah Adams, who does research into the kind
of crossover between autism and being trans. I know we've
(00:26):
we've briefly mentioned some like rhetoric around this on our
War on Trans People series episodes, and Noah was kind
enough to reach out to me to be willing to
discuss this more in depth. Of greetings, Hello, thank you.
It's it's always Pride Months somewhere in the summer. So
that's true. That's true. Um So, I guess let's I
(00:48):
first want to kind of hear how you how you
personally kind of got into this field of research, and
then maybe kind of clarify what what exactly your your
field of research is? Sure, UM, well, I guess where
do you start? I mean, I'm I'm a trans person
and I'm also autistic, so it's sort of a natural
(01:09):
crossover for me. UM. I got started in trans research,
uh or transactivism doing suicidality work. UM in such a
long time ago now, but in um, I think two
thousand and six, myself and my best friend cycled across
Canada to bring awareness for trans suicidality. Um and in
(01:32):
memorandum of a person, a friend who who committed suicide. UM.
So you know, we went to a lot of different
communities in Canada, including Saskatoon, did talks about you know,
did talks with local trans communities about suicide ality prevention stuff.
Uh and met a lot of great people. Um. And
(01:54):
then I came back and I did my Master of
Social work also on trans suicide new research, kind of
looking at how there's a lot of different research out
there and who knows, you know, there's a lot of
different rates that are given all high and and where
are we supposed to you know, fall on that? Um.
And then I finished that and I was kind of
(02:15):
tired of doing suicidality work. Yeah, speaking a little bit,
a little bit exhausting, um and kind of have a
I have a much darker sense of humor than I
used to. Yeah. UM. So a friend I was kind
of drifting into autism work and a friend who uh
(02:36):
Jake Pine, who who's a professor now at your university, UM,
suggested I kind of move into that area. And and
here I am so with the kind of crossover between
being trends and have and and uh, I guess I'm
not the best I don't I don't know, I consciously
don't kind of know all the what the most appropriate
(02:58):
languages would you say that you would you prefer to
say that you like have autism or you are artistic? Um?
I mean I think it's pretty universal in the autism
community to uh talk about identity first language. So yeah, exactly,
autism kind of leads and and that's yeah, I mean,
I guess i'd say I'm autistic. Most people don't say
(03:21):
person with autism. Yeah. Yeah, So with that, how have
you kind of what what initially got you to you know,
because we see a lot of propaganda and stuff trying
to almost like take away people's agency around both being
trans and and and um and with and how and
(03:43):
being autistic. Right, there's a lot of a lot of
propaganda there, especially from the Turfs in the UK really
started this out and really accelerated on this point. Um.
And I mean we're not there's a whole bunch of
basically autism exterminationist groups out there. Um, A whole whole
bunch of other kind of problems around this. How when
(04:05):
when these kind of crossovers start happening, where did you
kind of what what kind of prompted you to see
this and be like, Hey, here's this thing that needs
to be researched, and here's how I'm going to go
about it. Because you see a lot of people talk
about this thing, but it's always generally to like attack
trans people, um or attack autistic people. I mean, you
(04:26):
know there's a lot there. I mean I would say,
you know, my sort of seedling of interest is is
I just really don't like injustice. I really. I mean
that's such a broad thing to say, but I really,
you know, injustice against people for the sake of who
they are really just kind of pisces me off. Um.
And you know, I mean, when you pick a research topic,
(04:46):
you kind of pick something that you're willing to spend
hours and hours and hours in a library or you know, um,
a virtual library, what have you just kind of plowing
away at it. And and it seemed like I was
piste off enough at the injustice of the way autistic people,
in the way trans people are treated, and especially the
way I think I think we're ignored by both the theaters,
(05:07):
by both you know, for for TERFs and trans exclusionary folks. UM.
I really feel like we're an easy target where you know,
autistic people or or for that matter, people with devoltmental
disabilities or people with with any kind of UM and
I'm using having finger pots on this, any kind of
impairment based disability, feel like a soft target for people
(05:31):
that just want to attack trans folks, right like, because
they're they're a group that are so it's incomprehensible to
them that we would be able to speak for ourselves.
So so there, you know, I mean, I don't even
think that they I don't think they care about autistic people,
but I don't think they even it even occurs to
(05:52):
them that autistic people might have and trans autistic folks
might have something to say for themselves. So what's kind
of the scope of your research been the for however,
however long you've been working on this for it's it's
for a PhD program, correct, Yeah, Well, I started doing
(06:13):
I wrote a book on trans authentic folks that's sort
of a theory that interviewers with folks UM, and you know,
I mean I just asked them like about their lives
and what it was like to be trans and what
it was like to be autistic, and what it's like to,
you know, try to transition as an autistic person, and
a lot of stuff came out of that around you know,
how difficult it can be for folks that are their
(06:35):
both to access trans healthcare and to sort of navigate
their way in the world. Um, and this is for
my PhD work. It's sort of an outgrowth of that.
So I'm looking specifically at how trans autistic community group
sort of grassroots group formations are are forming and and
what their goals are. How do you, like, how do
(06:58):
you go about like ethic research into this topic, because
definitely the like, you know, there's a certain way to like,
there's a certain way to be like I'm researching autism
and trans people to be like, huh, that's a little
bit of a side I right, because because of how
some of because of how like the turf groups talk
about it. Obviously you're treads and autistic and that's completely different.
But like, definitely, yeah, I was definitely wondering, like is
(07:22):
there like how what what types of like ways does
ethical research go about so that you actually understand people
when you're when you're talking to them. It's not it's
not about like here we need to we need to
like solve these problems, because they're not problems to be solved,
But it's it's research into living people who are like
having lives. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a great question. Um.
(07:44):
I'm sort of starting to through that myself right now
because I'm just you know, working through my ethical research proposal. Um,
but I think you just have to be really honest
and open and and really write all this stuff out,
like how are you going to contact people and what
are you going to ak to them about and showing
other people what you're doing and being very open to
(08:04):
that process, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, In what
types of ways do you see the crossover kind of
between ableism and transphobia and like what how how have
(08:25):
you seen that crossover be used to kind of hurt
both trans people and people who are artistic and people
who are both, you know, I mean I think the
most explicit way has been I you know, I see
a lot of articles by the Guardian or the Daily Mail,
you know, bring up the specter of autistic people and
(08:46):
being overrepresented, overrepresented again in finger quotes, h among the
trans population going to gender clinics. And and there isn't
ever any explanation after you say that that the scaremongering
is just saying there's artistic people supposedly overrepresented among trans folks.
Oh no, but as if it doesn't need saying, it's
(09:09):
it's assumed that that's that's appalling, you know, but I
like a little bit more explanation. There's there's there's a
lot said by how they how there's how they frame
it and how they and like what they don't say,
um really fright, Like the it's all framed as if
this is, you know, something that everyone recognizes as like
a problem, um, and countering that is really challenging because
(09:33):
it is. Yeah, because like again you're you're doing research
into this in this into this specific crossover, and what
kinds of stuff have you kind of learned throughout your
research about about this. I mean it's interesting, like it's
that attitude is also represented in the academic literature, like
over the last I bet yeah, I'd say over the
last five years, the literature on the crossover of of
(09:57):
autism and trans folks has like skyrocketing. Like in I
always say, in to twenty alone, something like a hundred
and fifty articles were published, whereas two years before that,
maybe twenty UM and and the vast majority of them
are mentioning the um the co occurrence uh in passing.
(10:19):
So they're saying, oh, well, we read these other things
where autism and trans identity co occurs. So thus you
should be very careful prior to providing trans healthcare because
they might be autistic. Yeah, That's the only thing I
wanted to talk about was like people medical gatekeeping aspect,
and like you especially see you see this like turfs.
You know, there's a lot of like infantilization with the
(10:41):
turf Frederick around this, and then that kind of leads
to this type of medical gatekeeping. Yeah, I just think,
you know, I see, I see this. I saw this
in a book with the interviews I did, and I
see it in so many other places and especially conversation
with folks. Is that, you know, the problem seems to
be if you tell an unexpected narrative to the person
(11:03):
in charge of gate keeping you for transgender healthcare, you're
going to make them nervous. And if you make them nervous.
They're they're not necessarily going to say no, but they're
gonna say to themselves at least, oh, let's wait and see,
and for for autistic folks, waiting and seeing might mean forever, right,
Like I talked to folks in the book, UH that,
(11:24):
you know, without without mentioning actual cities, because of the
you know, the particular situation of this person. But let's
let's you know, let's say he lived in New Orleans, uh,
and he wasn't able to access trans healthcare and New
Orleans because it just wasn't available to folks who were autistic,
And so he ended up moving to Chicago, which which shows,
(11:45):
you know, he moved to Chicago specifically to get trans healthcare,
which shows a level of capacity that they're implying in
the context of trans healthcare and New Orleans that he's
not capable of. But you know, he can uproot his
whole life, move across the country himself, up find a doctor.
And then he talked to the doctor in an informed
health clinic in Chicago, and and they were like, oh, yeah,
(12:07):
we knew that you were from this city, and we
do that you were autistic before you told us, because
there's this whole pipeline of autistic trans folks making the
migration to Chicago from this particular city because they can't
get health care. I mean, like, you know, I'm also
thinking about you know, like kids trying to come out
as trans, um who have autism or have any other
(12:29):
kind of you know, quote unquote developmental disability UM, and
like just all of the ways that that can be
used to gaslight kids about their gender identity. UM. I
know in your book you mentioned stuff around like self
discovery and coming out and issues with family. UM, what
kind of what kind of things have you heard about
(12:52):
that in terms of how how kids that who the
kids are figuring figuring out gender stuff while also having
this whole other thing that people use to kind of,
you know, add on to their experience. I mean, I think,
you know, one of the things I noticed, especially in
you know, sort of trans artistic autobiographies, is that, you know,
(13:14):
gender doesn't really make an inherent sort of sense do
a lot of autistic folks. I mean, it doesn't make
sense to do. But I mean I have I have
something going on in my brain. I don't know what
it is. I don't think it's autism. But yeah, gender's
never never made sense to me either, And I think,
like where you for autistic people, especially where you come
across things that don't make an inherent sort of sense,
(13:37):
it's difficult to accept them. Like so much in the
world doesn't make inherent sense. But that could be a
real sticking point for autistic folks. So, you know, what
I see, what I seem to see a lot of
is that by the time folks come out of well,
first of all, it seems like although you know, I
don't want to quote any particular kind of research on it,
because I think the jury is still out, but it
(13:57):
seems like autistic people are more likely to identify as
non binary um or to just not identify with gender
at all. Um. And it does seem like by the
time folks come out as trans, whatever you know, permutation
of that there is for them, um, They've they've tried
just about every other identity they can, you know, they
(14:19):
can try out like especially you know, I mean, we're
aware that there are social stigmas and and and social
expectations around gender. So I think for for a lot
of autistic folks, they're going to try to fit that
even though it doesn't make sense to them. They're going
to try to fit within that because they know it exists,
(14:39):
and that by the time they come out as as trans,
like or male or female or what have you, like,
we pretty well know there makes any kind of sense. Yeah. No,
I mean they think that there's a lot of misconceptions
people have about about me both being trans and pig autistic.
(14:59):
Let let a load being both of Is there any
like yeah, like, what's most the common misconceptions about this
only kind of on like a broader level. Would you
like to dispel? Um? Sure, Yeah, I mean I think
a lot of people get told, you know, you can't
you can't be autistic because you're too you're too articulate,
(15:22):
or you know, you have too much of an opinion.
Autistic people can't have an opinion of themselves or their
own life. And that's I'm paraphrasing, but I think that's
what it is. Yeah, absolutely, Um, And then you know,
trans folks get told it's not uncommon to get told, oh, well,
you can't be autistic because you're trans, so you're sort
(15:42):
of in this this no no person's land. That's such
a it's such like an ontological attack on someone's being
it's so really is you know, like that's you know,
like you know already like again just being solely trans
or autistic, you at some of that and then together
it's like it's just attacking every kind of part of
(16:03):
you that you're trying to figure out. Um, well, I mean,
I mean in terms of attacking people rhetorically, it's sort
of the perfect weapon because you can make autistic trans
people into whatever you want to be convenient to you.
What kinds of stuff do you think people should know
about this to help kind of either you know, to
(16:24):
help either like counter some of the rhetoric around this,
or just to gain better like personal understanding, right if
they have if they have you know, people in their
lives who are like this, or maybe they suspect that
they're that they're trans and they're autistic. Like how what
what kinds of what kinds of stuff would you like
people to be more aware of about this intersection? Well,
(16:44):
I guess I remember a story someone from the book
told me about how you know he was. He had
his best friend is is trans and autistic as well
and has a number of physical disabilities, and he was
kind of he's sort of the caretaker for him. Um,
and he was kind of talking to him about how, oh, well,
I don't know if I'm trans, and I don't know
if I should, you know, if I should use that
(17:06):
label or like, you know, maybe it's not the right
thing to do or it's bad or something. And his
friend was like, well, you know you're not You're not
a hormone and vampire. Like you're not gonna like suck
the hormones onto somebody else and and hurt them by
taking away their testosterone. Like, oh, I wish is I
worked like that? Um, you know I would, I would
(17:28):
be a trans vampire. Um, this is about you and
what makes you comfortable. It's not about like you're not
hurting anybody else being yourself. And I think you know,
autistic folks like anybody else you know, worry about I mean,
we're we're just as susceptible to the attacks on trans
(17:50):
folks as anybody else, right, Like, and you worry that, like, well,
maybe this isn't the right thing to do, but like
what are you hurting by by exploring it? That doesn't
mean you have to be trans, or you have to transition,
or or you can't change your mind like but it doesn't.
It doesn't hurt anybody, even though you to just be
open to it, even just like temporarily trying out different
(18:13):
names or pronouns. Right, it can can be like such
a big deal, um, and it can be very incidental.
Like it doesn't it doesn't need to be so cataclysmic. Right,
That's something that you can experiment with and it's fine, right.
You never yeah, you don't lock yourself into anything. Um,
but of course you know what it's about, your personal
(18:34):
sense of identity. Of course it feels much bigger. Well,
I think I think people worry about what other folks.
I mean, obviously, people worry about what other folks will
think and mean for them. Um, I don't know. I mean,
it seems like a strange comparison to make, but I
don't know. If you've seen Crimes of the Future, I've
not yet. Oh, it's it's really good. It's it's the
(18:57):
most recent David Cronbrck movie, and they're just great. I'm
going to give away the end of the movie, so
spoil boilers. I know, we're giving this into a movie podcast.
What I've always wanted. There's this great scene at the
end though, where Vigo Mortison is like in this he
has this special like Verry David Croninbergie bone chair that
he has to like be in to move him around
(19:18):
what he's eating, and he finally is convinced by his
partner to like try the plastic chocolate bar that's you know,
supposed to be like it's a whole digestive thing. I
will get into it. But you know, there's this moment
of realization, like he's been avoiding this for the whole
the whole movie, and he like tries it and he's
eating it, and suddenly there's this this realization moment in
(19:40):
his face where he's like, oh, this didn't have to
be so difficult, Like, I society doesn't want me to
do this, and it's it's seen as a crime and
it's seen as as terrible, but actually when you crossed
that rubicon, it wasn't as bad as you thought. Yeah,
I mean, especially if you if you're even even if
(20:02):
you're not like coming out to everybody you know at
the same time, right, you can start you start off
with a smell group of people that you know are
gonna be with you, and you try it out with them,
and if you like it, then great, that's that's a
really good sign if you if you start it and
you're like, and this doesn't feel right, then you don't
need to commit. Like it's not a thing, right. That
rubicon can feel so big sometimes Yeah, and it feels
(20:25):
like you're you're jumping across a giant like the Grand Canyon.
But really, oh it is is you're stepping across, you know,
a small stream and you can step right back across
there if you didn't like it. Yeah, So what kind
of things we like to see happen around like the
medical gatekeeping so that it's less fucked up? I mean,
(20:45):
I know a lot of I'm actually act a conference
in Belgium right now for trans health sort of medical
trans health stuff. Um, and you know, I mean, I
think one of the things I keep coming back to
is you don't need to treat autistic people in the
realm of trans healthcare any differently than you do anywhere else,
(21:06):
like anyone else, Like especially in the gate keeper model,
we have like either you have the capacity to consent
or you don't like that that test is And I
have lots of thoughts about that if that's for another day.
But you know, whether you meet those tests or not,
it should not be any different just because you're autistic.
(21:37):
UM would like to, I guess talk just briefly about
your book. Um, you know, what's it like? What? What
what the scope of it is? Where people can find it?
UM trans an Autistic Stories from Our Stories from Life
at the Intersection by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. UM. It was
out in I think people can find it on Amazon
(21:58):
or wherever you buy books. I'm or Pala's bookstore over
there in Portland has it. Um. Yeah, it's it's a
series of interviews with folks who are trans and artistic.
I sat down with folks and and asked them about
their life and and what's going on and what that
looks like. And then I sort of, uh, you know,
trying to transcribe that into into a text, into a
(22:20):
narrative form and put that in a book. And here
we are. That sounds wonderful. UM. I see the I
see that. I see the listing on Amazon dot c
A for our for our Canadian Canadian folks as well. UM. Yeah,
thank you so much for talking about this. UM. Is
there any other kind of random thoughts that you would
like to you would like to mention that we haven't
(22:41):
that we haven't brought up yet. Sure. Um, you know,
I always like to plug groups Walsh's work which looks
at you know, they do a lot of work in
trans autistic stuff too, and they kind of look at
why more people may be trans an autistic, uh And
one of the things, as they've they've found is that
(23:02):
it may be that uh autistic people are both less
capable of hiding the fact that they're trans and less
less capable of caring um or caring about hiding it.
So it may be more obvious that there is a concurrence.
They're not an actual overage of a concurrence, let's say, Yeah,
(23:25):
of course. Yeah, that means that was definitely in the
back of my mind. Yeah, huh. Well again, no, thank
you so much for coming to talk with us. Yeah,
can I can I plug a couple of things? Is
that plug? Plug away? This is still still your time, okay. Um.
(23:47):
So I'm leading a refugee sponsorship group for a group
of five for a trans guy from the Middle East,
and we're raising funds through the Metropolitan Community Church in Toronto.
We got to raise us amount before we can put
the application in and I can give you that link,
but it's at Canada helps dot org and the name
(24:08):
is trans Proud, trans Proud trans and proud you are ill.
But it's kind of long. I will I will put
if you send me that link, I will put it
in the description for people to click on. Awesome, and
you can find me at no atoms on Twitter because
I got in early enough to get my name. Yeah wow,
(24:29):
March two thousand nine, just right right on the cusp
right well again, Thank you so much for reaching out
to talk about this intersection. Hopefully if anyone was interested
what we were talking about, UM, please check out Noah's book,
um to just read a whole bunch of stories from
from from people about this. Yeah awesome, Thank you, Yeah
(24:53):
all right everyone that does it for us today. See
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(25:16):
cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,
Welcome to it could happen here. I'm Garrison. With me
today is Chris, and today we'll be talking about something
that I was wanting to do for Pride Month but
time kind of got away from me. But we'll be
talking with Noah Adams, who does research into the kind
of crossover between autism and being trans. I know we've
(00:26):
we've briefly mentioned some like rhetoric around this on our
War on Trans People series episodes, and Noah was kind
enough to reach out to me to be willing to
discuss this more in depth. Of greetings, Hello, thank you.
It's it's always Pride Months somewhere in the summer. So
that's true. That's true. Um So, I guess let's I
(00:48):
first want to kind of hear how you how you
personally kind of got into this field of research, and
then maybe kind of clarify what what exactly your your
field of research is? Sure, UM, well, I guess where
do you start? I mean, I'm I'm a trans person
and I'm also autistic, so it's sort of a natural
(01:09):
crossover for me. UM. I got started in trans research,
uh or transactivism doing suicidality work. UM in such a
long time ago now, but in um, I think two
thousand and six, myself and my best friend cycled across
Canada to bring awareness for trans suicidality. Um and in
(01:32):
memorandum of a person, a friend who who committed suicide. UM.
So you know, we went to a lot of different
communities in Canada, including Saskatoon, did talks about you know,
did talks with local trans communities about suicide ality prevention stuff.
Uh and met a lot of great people. Um. And
(01:54):
then I came back and I did my Master of
Social work also on trans suicide new research, kind of
looking at how there's a lot of different research out
there and who knows, you know, there's a lot of
different rates that are given all high and and where
are we supposed to you know, fall on that? Um.
And then I finished that and I was kind of
(02:15):
tired of doing suicidality work. Yeah, speaking a little bit,
a little bit exhausting, um and kind of have a
I have a much darker sense of humor than I
used to. Yeah. UM. So a friend I was kind
of drifting into autism work and a friend who uh
(02:36):
Jake Pine, who who's a professor now at your university, UM,
suggested I kind of move into that area. And and
here I am so with the kind of crossover between
being trends and have and and uh, I guess I'm
not the best I don't I don't know, I consciously
don't kind of know all the what the most appropriate
(02:58):
languages would you say that you would you prefer to
say that you like have autism or you are artistic? Um?
I mean I think it's pretty universal in the autism
community to uh talk about identity first language. So yeah, exactly,
autism kind of leads and and that's yeah, I mean,
I guess i'd say I'm autistic. Most people don't say
(03:21):
person with autism. Yeah. Yeah, So with that, how have
you kind of what what initially got you to you know,
because we see a lot of propaganda and stuff trying
to almost like take away people's agency around both being
trans and and and um and with and how and
(03:43):
being autistic. Right, there's a lot of a lot of
propaganda there, especially from the Turfs in the UK really
started this out and really accelerated on this point. Um.
And I mean we're not there's a whole bunch of
basically autism exterminationist groups out there. Um, A whole whole
bunch of other kind of problems around this. How when
(04:05):
when these kind of crossovers start happening, where did you
kind of what what kind of prompted you to see
this and be like, Hey, here's this thing that needs
to be researched, and here's how I'm going to go
about it. Because you see a lot of people talk
about this thing, but it's always generally to like attack
trans people, um or attack autistic people. I mean, you
(04:26):
know there's a lot there. I mean I would say,
you know, my sort of seedling of interest is is
I just really don't like injustice. I really. I mean
that's such a broad thing to say, but I really,
you know, injustice against people for the sake of who
they are really just kind of pisces me off. Um.
And you know, I mean, when you pick a research topic,
(04:46):
you kind of pick something that you're willing to spend
hours and hours and hours in a library or you know, um,
a virtual library, what have you just kind of plowing
away at it. And and it seemed like I was
piste off enough at the injustice of the way autistic people,
in the way trans people are treated, and especially the
way I think I think we're ignored by both the theaters,
(05:07):
by both you know, for for TERFs and trans exclusionary folks. UM.
I really feel like we're an easy target where you know,
autistic people or or for that matter, people with devoltmental
disabilities or people with with any kind of UM and
I'm using having finger pots on this, any kind of
impairment based disability, feel like a soft target for people
(05:31):
that just want to attack trans folks, right like, because
they're they're a group that are so it's incomprehensible to
them that we would be able to speak for ourselves.
So so there, you know, I mean, I don't even
think that they I don't think they care about autistic people,
but I don't think they even it even occurs to
(05:52):
them that autistic people might have and trans autistic folks
might have something to say for themselves. So what's kind
of the scope of your research been the for however,
however long you've been working on this for it's it's
for a PhD program, correct, Yeah, Well, I started doing
(06:13):
I wrote a book on trans authentic folks that's sort
of a theory that interviewers with folks UM, and you know,
I mean I just asked them like about their lives
and what it was like to be trans and what
it was like to be autistic, and what it's like to,
you know, try to transition as an autistic person, and
a lot of stuff came out of that around you know,
how difficult it can be for folks that are their
(06:35):
both to access trans healthcare and to sort of navigate
their way in the world. Um, and this is for
my PhD work. It's sort of an outgrowth of that.
So I'm looking specifically at how trans autistic community group
sort of grassroots group formations are are forming and and
what their goals are. How do you, like, how do
(06:58):
you go about like ethic research into this topic, because
definitely the like, you know, there's a certain way to like,
there's a certain way to be like I'm researching autism
and trans people to be like, huh, that's a little
bit of a side I right, because because of how
some of because of how like the turf groups talk
about it. Obviously you're treads and autistic and that's completely different.
But like, definitely, yeah, I was definitely wondering, like is
(07:22):
there like how what what types of like ways does
ethical research go about so that you actually understand people
when you're when you're talking to them. It's not it's
not about like here we need to we need to
like solve these problems, because they're not problems to be solved,
But it's it's research into living people who are like
having lives. Yeah, I mean, that's that's a great question. Um.
(07:44):
I'm sort of starting to through that myself right now
because I'm just you know, working through my ethical research proposal. Um,
but I think you just have to be really honest
and open and and really write all this stuff out,
like how are you going to contact people and what
are you going to ak to them about and showing
other people what you're doing and being very open to
(08:04):
that process, if that makes sense. Yeah. Yeah, In what
types of ways do you see the crossover kind of
between ableism and transphobia and like what how how have
(08:25):
you seen that crossover be used to kind of hurt
both trans people and people who are artistic and people
who are both, you know, I mean I think the
most explicit way has been I you know, I see
a lot of articles by the Guardian or the Daily Mail,
you know, bring up the specter of autistic people and
(08:46):
being overrepresented, overrepresented again in finger quotes, h among the
trans population going to gender clinics. And and there isn't
ever any explanation after you say that that the scaremongering
is just saying there's artistic people supposedly overrepresented among trans folks.
Oh no, but as if it doesn't need saying, it's
(09:09):
it's assumed that that's that's appalling, you know, but I
like a little bit more explanation. There's there's there's a
lot said by how they how there's how they frame
it and how they and like what they don't say,
um really fright, Like the it's all framed as if
this is, you know, something that everyone recognizes as like
a problem, um, and countering that is really challenging because
(09:33):
it is. Yeah, because like again you're you're doing research
into this in this into this specific crossover, and what
kinds of stuff have you kind of learned throughout your
research about about this. I mean it's interesting, like it's
that attitude is also represented in the academic literature, like
over the last I bet yeah, I'd say over the
last five years, the literature on the crossover of of
(09:57):
autism and trans folks has like skyrocketing. Like in I
always say, in to twenty alone, something like a hundred
and fifty articles were published, whereas two years before that,
maybe twenty UM and and the vast majority of them
are mentioning the um the co occurrence uh in passing.
(10:19):
So they're saying, oh, well, we read these other things
where autism and trans identity co occurs. So thus you
should be very careful prior to providing trans healthcare because
they might be autistic. Yeah, That's the only thing I
wanted to talk about was like people medical gatekeeping aspect,
and like you especially see you see this like turfs.
You know, there's a lot of like infantilization with the
(10:41):
turf Frederick around this, and then that kind of leads
to this type of medical gatekeeping. Yeah, I just think,
you know, I see, I see this. I saw this
in a book with the interviews I did, and I
see it in so many other places and especially conversation
with folks. Is that, you know, the problem seems to
be if you tell an unexpected narrative to the person
(11:03):
in charge of gate keeping you for transgender healthcare, you're
going to make them nervous. And if you make them nervous.
They're they're not necessarily going to say no, but they're
gonna say to themselves at least, oh, let's wait and see,
and for for autistic folks, waiting and seeing might mean forever, right,
Like I talked to folks in the book, UH that,
(11:24):
you know, without without mentioning actual cities, because of the
you know, the particular situation of this person. But let's
let's you know, let's say he lived in New Orleans, uh,
and he wasn't able to access trans healthcare and New
Orleans because it just wasn't available to folks who were autistic,
And so he ended up moving to Chicago, which which shows,
(11:45):
you know, he moved to Chicago specifically to get trans healthcare,
which shows a level of capacity that they're implying in
the context of trans healthcare and New Orleans that he's
not capable of. But you know, he can uproot his
whole life, move across the country himself, up find a doctor.
And then he talked to the doctor in an informed
health clinic in Chicago, and and they were like, oh, yeah,
(12:07):
we knew that you were from this city, and we
do that you were autistic before you told us, because
there's this whole pipeline of autistic trans folks making the
migration to Chicago from this particular city because they can't
get health care. I mean, like, you know, I'm also
thinking about you know, like kids trying to come out
as trans, um who have autism or have any other
(12:29):
kind of you know, quote unquote developmental disability UM, and
like just all of the ways that that can be
used to gaslight kids about their gender identity. UM. I
know in your book you mentioned stuff around like self
discovery and coming out and issues with family. UM, what
kind of what kind of things have you heard about
(12:52):
that in terms of how how kids that who the
kids are figuring figuring out gender stuff while also having
this whole other thing that people use to kind of,
you know, add on to their experience. I mean, I think,
you know, one of the things I noticed, especially in
you know, sort of trans artistic autobiographies, is that, you know,
(13:14):
gender doesn't really make an inherent sort of sense do
a lot of autistic folks. I mean, it doesn't make
sense to do. But I mean I have I have
something going on in my brain. I don't know what
it is. I don't think it's autism. But yeah, gender's
never never made sense to me either, And I think,
like where you for autistic people, especially where you come
across things that don't make an inherent sort of sense,
(13:37):
it's difficult to accept them. Like so much in the
world doesn't make inherent sense. But that could be a
real sticking point for autistic folks. So, you know, what
I see, what I seem to see a lot of
is that by the time folks come out of well,
first of all, it seems like although you know, I
don't want to quote any particular kind of research on it,
because I think the jury is still out, but it
(13:57):
seems like autistic people are more likely to identify as
non binary um or to just not identify with gender
at all. Um. And it does seem like by the
time folks come out as trans, whatever you know, permutation
of that there is for them, um, They've they've tried
just about every other identity they can, you know, they
(14:19):
can try out like especially you know, I mean, we're
aware that there are social stigmas and and and social
expectations around gender. So I think for for a lot
of autistic folks, they're going to try to fit that
even though it doesn't make sense to them. They're going
to try to fit within that because they know it exists,
(14:39):
and that by the time they come out as as trans,
like or male or female or what have you, like,
we pretty well know there makes any kind of sense. Yeah. No,
I mean they think that there's a lot of misconceptions
people have about about me both being trans and pig autistic.
(14:59):
Let let a load being both of Is there any
like yeah, like, what's most the common misconceptions about this
only kind of on like a broader level. Would you
like to dispel? Um? Sure, Yeah, I mean I think
a lot of people get told, you know, you can't
you can't be autistic because you're too you're too articulate,
(15:22):
or you know, you have too much of an opinion.
Autistic people can't have an opinion of themselves or their
own life. And that's I'm paraphrasing, but I think that's
what it is. Yeah, absolutely, Um, And then you know,
trans folks get told it's not uncommon to get told, oh, well,
you can't be autistic because you're trans, so you're sort
(15:42):
of in this this no no person's land. That's such
a it's such like an ontological attack on someone's being
it's so really is you know, like that's you know,
like you know already like again just being solely trans
or autistic, you at some of that and then together
it's like it's just attacking every kind of part of
(16:03):
you that you're trying to figure out. Um, well, I mean,
I mean in terms of attacking people rhetorically, it's sort
of the perfect weapon because you can make autistic trans
people into whatever you want to be convenient to you.
What kinds of stuff do you think people should know
about this to help kind of either you know, to
(16:24):
help either like counter some of the rhetoric around this,
or just to gain better like personal understanding, right if
they have if they have you know, people in their
lives who are like this, or maybe they suspect that
they're that they're trans and they're autistic. Like how what
what kinds of what kinds of stuff would you like
people to be more aware of about this intersection? Well,
(16:44):
I guess I remember a story someone from the book
told me about how you know he was. He had
his best friend is is trans and autistic as well
and has a number of physical disabilities, and he was
kind of he's sort of the caretaker for him. Um,
and he was kind of talking to him about how, oh, well,
I don't know if I'm trans, and I don't know
if I should, you know, if I should use that
(17:06):
label or like, you know, maybe it's not the right
thing to do or it's bad or something. And his
friend was like, well, you know you're not You're not
a hormone and vampire. Like you're not gonna like suck
the hormones onto somebody else and and hurt them by
taking away their testosterone. Like, oh, I wish is I
worked like that? Um, you know I would, I would
(17:28):
be a trans vampire. Um, this is about you and
what makes you comfortable. It's not about like you're not
hurting anybody else being yourself. And I think you know,
autistic folks like anybody else you know, worry about I mean,
we're we're just as susceptible to the attacks on trans
(17:50):
folks as anybody else, right, Like, and you worry that, like, well,
maybe this isn't the right thing to do, but like
what are you hurting by by exploring it? That doesn't
mean you have to be trans, or you have to transition,
or or you can't change your mind like but it doesn't.
It doesn't hurt anybody, even though you to just be
open to it, even just like temporarily trying out different
(18:13):
names or pronouns. Right, it can can be like such
a big deal, um, and it can be very incidental.
Like it doesn't it doesn't need to be so cataclysmic. Right,
That's something that you can experiment with and it's fine, right.
You never yeah, you don't lock yourself into anything. Um,
but of course you know what it's about, your personal
(18:34):
sense of identity. Of course it feels much bigger. Well,
I think I think people worry about what other folks.
I mean, obviously, people worry about what other folks will
think and mean for them. Um, I don't know. I mean,
it seems like a strange comparison to make, but I
don't know. If you've seen Crimes of the Future, I've
not yet. Oh, it's it's really good. It's it's the
(18:57):
most recent David Cronbrck movie, and they're just great. I'm
going to give away the end of the movie, so
spoil boilers. I know, we're giving this into a movie podcast.
What I've always wanted. There's this great scene at the
end though, where Vigo Mortison is like in this he
has this special like Verry David Croninbergie bone chair that
he has to like be in to move him around
(19:18):
what he's eating, and he finally is convinced by his
partner to like try the plastic chocolate bar that's you know,
supposed to be like it's a whole digestive thing. I
will get into it. But you know, there's this moment
of realization, like he's been avoiding this for the whole
the whole movie, and he like tries it and he's
eating it, and suddenly there's this this realization moment in
(19:40):
his face where he's like, oh, this didn't have to
be so difficult, Like, I society doesn't want me to
do this, and it's it's seen as a crime and
it's seen as as terrible, but actually when you crossed
that rubicon, it wasn't as bad as you thought. Yeah,
I mean, especially if you if you're even even if
(20:02):
you're not like coming out to everybody you know at
the same time, right, you can start you start off
with a smell group of people that you know are
gonna be with you, and you try it out with them,
and if you like it, then great, that's that's a
really good sign if you if you start it and
you're like, and this doesn't feel right, then you don't
need to commit. Like it's not a thing, right. That
rubicon can feel so big sometimes Yeah, and it feels
(20:25):
like you're you're jumping across a giant like the Grand Canyon.
But really, oh it is is you're stepping across, you know,
a small stream and you can step right back across
there if you didn't like it. Yeah, So what kind
of things we like to see happen around like the
medical gatekeeping so that it's less fucked up? I mean,
(20:45):
I know a lot of I'm actually act a conference
in Belgium right now for trans health sort of medical
trans health stuff. Um, and you know, I mean, I
think one of the things I keep coming back to
is you don't need to treat autistic people in the
realm of trans healthcare any differently than you do anywhere else,
(21:06):
like anyone else, Like especially in the gate keeper model,
we have like either you have the capacity to consent
or you don't like that that test is And I
have lots of thoughts about that if that's for another day.
But you know, whether you meet those tests or not,
it should not be any different just because you're autistic.
(21:37):
UM would like to, I guess talk just briefly about
your book. Um, you know, what's it like? What? What
what the scope of it is? Where people can find it?
UM trans an Autistic Stories from Our Stories from Life
at the Intersection by Jessica Kingsley Publishers. UM. It was
out in I think people can find it on Amazon
(21:58):
or wherever you buy books. I'm or Pala's bookstore over
there in Portland has it. Um. Yeah, it's it's a
series of interviews with folks who are trans and artistic.
I sat down with folks and and asked them about
their life and and what's going on and what that
looks like. And then I sort of, uh, you know,
trying to transcribe that into into a text, into a
(22:20):
narrative form and put that in a book. And here
we are. That sounds wonderful. UM. I see the I
see that. I see the listing on Amazon dot c
A for our for our Canadian Canadian folks as well. UM. Yeah,
thank you so much for talking about this. UM. Is
there any other kind of random thoughts that you would
like to you would like to mention that we haven't
(22:41):
that we haven't brought up yet. Sure. Um, you know,
I always like to plug groups Walsh's work which looks
at you know, they do a lot of work in
trans autistic stuff too, and they kind of look at
why more people may be trans an autistic, uh And
one of the things, as they've they've found is that
(23:02):
it may be that uh autistic people are both less
capable of hiding the fact that they're trans and less
less capable of caring um or caring about hiding it.
So it may be more obvious that there is a concurrence.
They're not an actual overage of a concurrence, let's say, Yeah,
(23:25):
of course. Yeah, that means that was definitely in the
back of my mind. Yeah, huh. Well again, no, thank
you so much for coming to talk with us. Yeah,
can I can I plug a couple of things? Is
that plug? Plug away? This is still still your time, okay. Um.
(23:47):
So I'm leading a refugee sponsorship group for a group
of five for a trans guy from the Middle East,
and we're raising funds through the Metropolitan Community Church in Toronto.
We got to raise us amount before we can put
the application in and I can give you that link,
but it's at Canada helps dot org and the name
(24:08):
is trans Proud, trans Proud trans and proud you are ill.
But it's kind of long. I will I will put
if you send me that link, I will put it
in the description for people to click on. Awesome, and
you can find me at no atoms on Twitter because
I got in early enough to get my name. Yeah wow,
(24:29):
March two thousand nine, just right right on the cusp
right well again, Thank you so much for reaching out
to talk about this intersection. Hopefully if anyone was interested
what we were talking about, UM, please check out Noah's book,
um to just read a whole bunch of stories from
from from people about this. Yeah awesome, Thank you, Yeah
(24:53):
all right everyone that does it for us today. See
on the other side. It could happen here as a
production of cool Zone Media and more podcasts from cool
Zone Media. Visit our website cool zone media dot com,
or check us out on the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. You can
find sources for It could Happen here, updated monthly at
(25:16):
cool zone Media dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,
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