Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was living to dream of every young not even
a trans person, someone who's from out of nowhere into
Philippines in the little alley, to be in New York
City and working as a fashion model like I was
doing it. And those glimpses, as I said, is punctured
by that constant layer of loneliness that, like my inner truth,
(00:21):
could not be fully be accepted.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Here this is It's okay that you're not okay, then
I'm your host, Meghan Devine. This week on the show,
author model and trans rights advocate Gina Rossero on what
it means to be visible and why all of us
need to decide for ourselves when it's safe enough to
be seen. Settle in Everybody A complex, nuanced, fascinating conversation
(00:48):
coming up right after this first break. Before we get started,
one quick note. While we cover a lot of emotional
relational territory in each and every episode, this show is
not a substitute for skilled support with a licensed mental
health provider or for professional supervision related to your work.
(01:15):
Hey friends, I'm so excited for today's show. It has
got everything. It's got history, it's got culture, it's got fashion,
it's got drama. It's got social commentary, something for everyone.
Gina Rossero is a Filipino American model, speaker, and transwrits advocate.
Gina found amazing success as a model at the same
(01:38):
time most of the world, including her colleagues and her
modeling manager, were unaware that she's transgender. Her twenty fourteen
TED talk Why I Must Come Out, has been viewed
over three point seven million times, and you're going to
hear the story of that main stage event during our
conversation together. Gina has spoken at the White House and
(01:59):
the United Nations. She's been featured on CNN and in
Glamour and Cosmo and Vanity Fair and Variety, and she's
the author of the new book Horse Barbie, named one
of the best memoirs of twenty twenty three by l magazine.
Gina has done so much for both Philippine and representation
and for trans visibility in the US and in her
(02:20):
native Philippines. Now, in today's show, we take a fascinating
dive into the history of gender in the Philippines and
how that relates to that visibility invisibility continuum, we navigate
in so many different ways throughout our lives. That visibility
invisibility continuum thing that is not just for trans and
non binary folks. Everybody has parts of themselves they hold back.
(02:44):
We all have parts of ourselves we decide to share
or not share, depending on the situation at hand. It's
a question that many of us wrestle with. When is
it safe to be who you are? And when is
it safer to hide that truth. Each choice has a
costs and each choice has its benefits. That you're going
to hear all about that in today's show, and this
(03:06):
is a wide ranging conversation, also touching on the ways
we celebrate and sometimes fetishize certain people in specific settings
and then bully them or otherwise subject those same people
to violence once they're offstage. We also touch on family
systems and how to support, protect, and encourage the people
you love. We explore immigration and advocacy and power. I mean,
(03:29):
I told you that this episode has it all fashion, intrigue, history, culture, drama,
and it's got a deep, honest, real conversation about what
it means to be visible in a world that doesn't
always want you to exist. Let's get to it, friends
with the excellent Gina Rossero. Gina, I am so glad
(03:53):
to have you here with me today. I've literally spent
the last three days swimming in your world, with your
book and your talks and like all of the things
that you're up to. So I'm like, I always feel
like we've hung out. I've hung out with my guests
before I actually meet you. So I'm glad to have
you here in video person.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this content.
Speaker 2 (04:12):
As I said, I have been like in deep dive
with you and your work and your story. So there
are lots of places that we could begin our conversation.
But there's a theme that came up for me again
and again as I read your book and I listen
to you speak. There's almost this like call and response
that weaves through your life of the power of both
(04:32):
seeing and being seen. I imagine this like sight glass
or this, you know, like the set of binoculars, but
like that shift back and forth between the seer and
the scene and the power and the vulnerability in both.
Does that feel accurate?
Speaker 1 (04:49):
Yeah, I think I mean just tracing back, you know,
my life. I mean, I mean writing this book, certainly,
it's my way to just reconnecting that journey, you know,
I've always been. You know, as I've finished writing this book,
I just definitely recognize that I'm in that quest of
(05:09):
finding my place in the world, finding my place in
the cultural context, emotional context where I'm at, but certainly
that that changes, and not just my own question in
finding that, but certainly how that immediate surrounding response to
who I am in that moment in my life. So yeah,
I'm always in constant dynamic, not necessarily in conversation, but
(05:33):
more so there's always a reflection of where I'm at
in my life. And you know, in the chapters and
the life story that I shared.
Speaker 2 (05:43):
You write about you know, being a child and being
really seen by your mom as who you are and
sort of this really I think I think those two
twin things, right, like the the cultural and spiritual backdrop
of the Philippines where gender fluidity is culturally accepted, and
then pairing that with really being seen by your mom
(06:06):
for who you are. It's like that initial being seen
is the foundation of what else became possible.
Speaker 1 (06:16):
You know, I was just in DC and I did
a couple of engagements there and there's a woman that
I mean, I'm a Filipinos. We have so many communities,
in so many different places. I felt absolutely welcome. So
after all my engagements, we had a dinner party get
together and are OK And there was a woman there
who who's a Filipina and she has trans kids, and
(06:41):
she came up to me and I just went acknowledge
that obviously she's very emotional, especially in this moment what
we're seeing right now. There was a moment when we're
having a conversation she felt like, this is the least
that I could do, which is to be there for
my kids, and I have to sort of ground her
and saying that this is not the least that you
could do. This is as what you're saying, this is
(07:02):
the foundation of who I am. I'm able to have
that vision, have a sense of freedom, have sense of joy,
have a sense of playfulness because I was granted by
my family, my mom, my dad, who was very supportive
in spite of, you know, the surroundings that they have,
(07:22):
which is the contradictions of a very conservative, strict Catholic
culture in the Philippines. So, you know, taking from what
you said to that particular interaction that I had, it
is truly the foundation of who I am. You know
that love that my parents shared with me.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
I almost feel like it's a protective force in a way.
I mean, you literally write about that in the book
when you're writing about your mom. You were bullied by
kids and actually by adults as well, but you write
that not only did your mom's love protect you, but
your communities love for your mother also protected you. Can
(08:00):
you tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
Growing up in the Philippines, it's a very it's all
about the community. Moving to America and understanding this thing
called individualism was so freaking weird to me. In the Philippines,
you don't exist as an individual, you know, I have
been sharing. I think it's so important to really truly
acknowledge that. I'd like to think that I'm very grateful
(08:23):
that I never lost that sense of community. And what
I mean by that community for us is fear ingrained
in our souls and in our spirit. We have this
word called papa in the Philippines, which is basically, your
inner self is always shared with others, and through that sharing,
you're always a reflection of whoever you're surrounded with. And
(08:45):
with that, because my mom is well loved, not just
obviously love, we love her our immediate neighborhood loves her her,
you know her as a teacher in elementary school for
twenty three years. Everyone loved her. That this certain security,
certain comfort, certain integrity. And I was protected by that
(09:07):
because anything outside of my family, you know, I heard
it bullying, I get chased, I got you know, taste,
I got taught, I got you know, adults would call
me names.
Speaker 2 (09:20):
It's so fascinating and horrifying. Right you write that in
the Philippines, gender fluidity is cultural accepted but not politically protected.
As I was reading that, I was thinking about in India,
like the reverence of female deity but also the subjugation
and violence against women, right, like these twin things that
(09:43):
show up so much, like this veneration of the ethereal
female and the desecration of the carnal female. Like what
is up with that?
Speaker 1 (09:54):
I mean, season is itself? I mean, that's the We
could deconstruct that, but particularly in the Philippines. Let me
make some corrections. Yeah, I wouldn't say it's culturally accepted.
It's a big word acceptance, a word for me to
I think at certainly in the context in the Philippines,
it's culturally visible okay, but not politically recognized. And let
(10:18):
me also just say, you know, because I was born
and raised in the Philippines, half of my life in
the Philippines, half here, in many of my conversations, I
always have to not always have to, but I need
to be aware of that context of where that perspective
is situated. And in my conversations I always say that, Okay,
sometimes I operate with this context because I really have
(10:40):
that global perspective. As I share that in my book,
as I share that story, it's very big. As we
talked about this force of some might say duality, some
might say contradiction. For us, it's not a contradictions. It's
an amalgamation of forces. You know, from Western American lens.
(11:01):
You know, we might have this critical analysis and I
do have now obviously, but growing up in the Philippines,
it's just part of this missmash of so many forces
that have led to where we are now. And obviously
we're speaking about this very vibrant transgender beauty pageants culture
that we have in the Philippines that is part of
(11:23):
mainstream culture, and you know, it's so embedded in our culture.
As we talked about like gender fluidity. There's we have
so many different dialects, but there's so many words for
the role of trans people played in pre colonial Philippines.
I mean, we have the word called baby lanch, which
are the spiritual leaders. I have a tattoo. There is
(11:43):
a pre colonial script in the Philippines for characters. Is
a latti, is a gender fluid. Let's just say the
word trans goddess of fertility, goddess of harvest, you know,
like before we were colonized by Spain. We're an animate school.
So we pray to trans deities, you know, for harvest.
(12:05):
So you have that baseline of a culture that is
well documented. It is in our very language to galog
as many of the dialects. We have hundreds something dialects
in the Philippines around that range, and it's gender neutral.
We don't have he or shape because in pre colonial Philippines,
your role in society is not determined by your gender.
(12:27):
Isn't egalitarian culture. It's the role in your immediate community,
in your immediate society or kingdoms is determined by what
you offer. But you know, you're the specific role that
you want to play. Act having that choice, you know,
and then obviously when fifteen twenty one came or a
Spanish colony for three hundred and thirty three years, and
(12:49):
thus the introduction of you know, Abrahamic patriarchal approach to existence,
you know, the introduction of Catholic calendar. And then we
switched from animism to you know, obviously animism in touch
with nature's spirituality, to the medic Catholicism, and that we
(13:10):
have this thing called Fiasta celebration, right, we celebrate different saints,
Catholic patrons, all of our debilippings throughout the year. And
then eighteen ninety eight, you know, Spanish American War, we
were purchased by America for twenty million from Spain. And
then when we were a colony of America for fifty years,
our colonizer would put on this pageant called called Carnival Queen,
(13:32):
and the winner would sort of become like this bridge
of that friendship, become almost like a beauty ambassador. So
you have those influences, and what we have now is
an amalgamation of all those forces. That's why we have
this very vibrant church. Ander be the pageant culture, you
know that is so part of mainstream culture, but also
because and then when they say about like we're now oolytical,
(13:54):
recognized what I specifically mean by that is, and our
legal documents still to this day, you can't change name
in gender market and your legal documents as a transperson
in the Philippines because our systems of government that what
we have now is an American system, and an American
system that lives on understanding of gender as a binary.
(14:17):
There won't be a space for that. And it's also
important to point out that, you know, in the Philippines
a long, long history of LGBTQ queer activism, so the
fight for trans people to be who we are is
a long battle. I think those kind of encapsulate so much,
but I think it clearly traces why we have that
(14:38):
right now. You know, that vibrancy of trans beauty pageant
culture and how it exists in you know, yes, contradictory, yes,
sort of incomplete way of seeing trans people as full
citizens in the country.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
One of the things I think of as you describe
all of that, like all of those different forces. I
can't remember exactly what you said in there, but it
made me think of like some of the sort of
homophobic pushback against Pride Month. You and I are recording
this conversation during Pride Month, is like why do we
have to know about your gender?
Speaker 1 (15:14):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Like something you said and what you were talking about
was like this didn't used to be a quote unquote issue.
It used to be an understood reality that gender is
fluid and this is just how it is, right, and
it were structures that came in and sort of again
I'm doing air quotes here for everybody like made an
issue of gender, and sometimes that pushback around trans rights
(15:38):
or queer rights or even honestly women's rights is like,
why do we have to know about your gender? And
it's because violence and political acts and exclusion is based
on gender. That's why you have to know about my gender,
do you know? I mean like I'm not describing this
(15:59):
as well is it like came up in my head
when you mentioned it, But there really is something about
like I know that pushback, I've heard that pushback doing
this work of like it's the same thing that we
say about sort of lip service to the queer community.
Is like I don't care who you love, I just
want to stop hearing about it, right, And that's a
lot of pushback against trans rights and transactivism is like,
(16:22):
I don't care what you quote unquote think you are.
Why do I have to hear about it?
Speaker 1 (16:27):
You're alluded to it. How it's connected to obviously, how
feminism and women's rights are also connected to way, let's
also acknowledged that this is a country based and like,
you know, anything in proximity to white patriarchy is the
systems of thought, systems of spirit of this country. And
I think the reason why we could say that that's
(16:48):
not even the using the term intersectional, but just it
just is because anything outside the systems of thought of
white American patriarchy is some thing to be attacked. It's
something to be not you know, to accept or not
have that immediate freedom that that it should be afforded.
(17:10):
Because with what we just went through as a as
a as a as a population in this world, you know,
the pandemic, the supposed racial reckoning, we having gone to
unpacking like anti Asian hate. You know, you would think
that really we are beginning to unpack all of that,
(17:31):
but again, unfortunately, over and over again, we're going back
to the same thing. Not until the supposed idea promise
of a culture and a country that offers freedom unless
we don't really always talk about like the history of
that foundation of that freedom, that idea of that freedom
(17:54):
that was not if you're not a white man, you're
not part of that. And we're still there, still getting
that conversation, because how do we impact that? I mean, yes,
we could have conversations, and I'm saying that in this
bigger approach, you know, because it's that's the ground base
of very you know, of what we're fighting against.
Speaker 2 (18:16):
It's this idea that like we have to have these
conversations because violence is now, violence is happening, exclusion is happening,
Like we're continuing that path. Like we would love to
be able to stop having conversations about trauma and pain
and violence, Like we would love to stop having those conversations,
(18:40):
but we can't stop having those conversations until things change, right,
Like the way to stop hearing quote unquote conversations about
gender is to make the world a safer and more
equitable and welcoming place. Like that's how you stop having
here about it. Before we get back to my conversation
(19:03):
with Gina Rossero, do you work with grieving people? I mean,
at this point, everybody is grieving something. So if you
work with humans in any capacity, you do actually work
with grief. And if you work with the queer or
trans communities, grief is absolutely everywhere. If you want to
know how to be truly helpful to people grieving any
(19:23):
kind of loss, spots are still available. In my six
month Grief Care Intensive. There's a unit on grief and
Social change, which includes many of the topics explored in
this episode. Today, there's a unit on working with special populations,
which includes those in the queer and trans communities. This
six month training is designed for people in the helping professions,
but you don't have to be a therapist to join.
(19:45):
This session begins on September fourth, twenty twenty three, so
if you are listening to this episode later or you
can't start with us in September, check back. The plan
is to run this training once a year or so.
All of the information is at the registration link in
the show notes. You can all so find it in
my Instagram bio at Refuge in Grief. All right, let's
get back to my conversation with Gina Rosso. Something that
(20:08):
comes up for me. You know, I started out with
a question about seeing and being seen and there's this
there's scene spelled with it. As see there's a scene
early in your book where you're talking about bullying in
your childhood and you come home and you look in
the mirror and ask yourself, like, why is my femininity
(20:30):
femininity such a threat?
Speaker 1 (20:33):
Right?
Speaker 2 (20:34):
And it's that people seeing you who you are as
a threat. I think our inability to recognize that we
have an emotional response to somebody else that that is
our stuff and not their stuff, right.
Speaker 1 (20:50):
I think especially young trans people is acutely aware of
this at such a young age, you know, and because
you just know, you just know your truths at that
young age. And I'm not really just saying that. I
like to preach out like people know all we do know,
and what prevents us from pursuing the thing that we
(21:11):
know is anything outside our heads, from our parents, to
our customs or immediate communities or surroundings, their schools, anything
that's like outside of that early processes of recognizing our
own truths, and the people outside of that that doesn't
recognize that that becomes a problem. But we know at
(21:34):
a young age, you know, I mean science, BacT this
this is not a debate. This has been proven over
and over and it's the product of the cultures doesn't
allow for that. Even in the culture in the Philippines
where you have that, their vibrant transpepathean culture still not enough,
you know. So imagine you're in America when you actually
(21:55):
don't see it like an American context. When a young transkids,
you know, express anything outside where you're supposed, you know,
a sign gender, you are going to be made fun of,
You're going to get a tent. Unfortunately, that's what we're
seeing right now. And suppose mature people or evolved people, but.
Speaker 2 (22:15):
Not you know, yeah, I remember reading that you said
you're your first exposure to a trans person when you
got to the US was on the Jerry Springer Show.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Oh yeah, I've been thinking about this just just in
a way to trace the initial conversation that we're having
is that in the Philippines, trans people are culturally visible
but not politically recognized.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
So when I moved to America at seventeen years old
to be with my mom after being separated for five
years and moving here as a seventeen year old who
has had this incredible career as a transpangent diva in
the Philippines. Right, I was at the pinnacle of my career.
And when she told me that I could move here
because I could be legally recognized as a woman and
(23:01):
my gender marker. I moved here, and as a seventeen
year old coming from a culture of being a transpageant
diva to yes, moving here and I see the f
and my gender marker and made me so happy. And
it's as if my mom spoke magic to me, and
she she granted my wish. But when I asked her, so,
(23:24):
where are the transpageants, she was like, there's some such
thing here. So that was the beginning of the shock.
But then because my reference of trans people that I
saw on TV in the Philippines, I'm not saying it's
all perfect, but I'm saying, like my reference is transpageant
that's shown on TV in the Philippines. So when I
saw on TV my first trans representation was on Jerry Springer,
(23:47):
it was a shot. Now I know that was the
beginning of shame of who I am, and whether I
didn't have the words at the time, I felt that
I remember bagging looking at at it, not just like
what had happened, but also the way it happened. I
mean he recently passed to and I remember there's so
(24:08):
many conversations up a line of so many trans women
that part of that meaning they've been on Jerry Spray
and not just JR. Spraying, and there's a lot of
different shows that were doing that. It was a mix of,
you know, a sense of healings, sense of being retriggered
about that experience in that very specific point in our culture.
(24:30):
But there's also this other side, like in the moment
that's the only way truly for them to have a
space where they could dress up. Some of them. I've
heard they got paid, thank god. But also there's as
you said, there's this being seen and how you're seen.
But more so I just didn't know what was going
to happen, but I could feel what's about to happen
even before I saw it happening. You know, the way
(24:51):
he would bother up, you know, the situation to like
and then the shock. Because I've been thinking about this
so much as my point of reference, that is di
personification of how America's is gender. I'm not just specifically
talking about transgender identity, but gender as a whole, which
is if it's not from the lens of an older
(25:11):
white man who has the mic, who is an executive producer,
has the power to command what's being done. You're a freak.
You're not going to be given access to your full humanity.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Yeah, I mean, that freak label is what we give
to anyone who brings up feelings in us that we
don't know how to handle, that are uncomfortable for us,
that we don't have a space for. Like, the only
way to deal with the emotions that come up for
you when you see someone who is different than you
(25:46):
is to otherise, is to make them wrong, right, and
then weaponize that.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Yeah, I'm out there. I'm talking about the book. I
work a lot with transfers. Obviously, they're always in my mind,
especially for what's happening. Now. There's the other side of
that conversation too. I mean, you know you're alluding to
it in a way about I know now as someone
who has gone through my own journey of unpacking my
(26:13):
own shame of barely surviving because of that shame, surviving
meaning you know, feeling a sense of a life well lived.
You know, I do know this now, and I speak
about it a lot, and I want to always continuously
share that with especially young trans kids, is that we
(26:33):
have the power. This reaction of what we're seeing now
and through the lens of someone who's not quote unquote
accepting of trans people in gender nonconformity, I'd say people
are very afraid of looking at themselves. You know, what
we do and who we are, and how all trans
(26:55):
people and gender non conforming people, including the ground base
of the history that we talk about earlier in the
history of the world, pre colonial times, we've always had
that role. But because that people don't want to accept that.
Their only reaction is to ignore it, put it aside,
attacked it, and do whatever it takes for it to
(27:17):
not come up because they're so afraid to look within themselves.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
We're all a product of the patriarchal colonial model, right,
and your fears and discomfort when you look at anyone
you've decided as outside of you and outside of okayness
like that is that is a function of colonialism. That
is a function of binary thought. That is not how
humans work, right, We just we don't sure it's not
(27:44):
it truly truly is not right. Like gender is a
human construct. Okay, that's a whole different conversation. But like this,
for me, this comes back to a grief issue, right,
Like that, we don't talk about the ways to grieve
our inheritance. We don't talk about the ways to identify
the disservice to self and disservice to soul that being
(28:08):
a citizen of this world gives us.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Yeah, I me also just say, I'm like, I'm speaking
about it now. I just want I acknowledge that I
myself have gone through my own journey to get to
this thought process, a very difficult task, you know, of
unpacking so much of my own colonial understanding of I
(28:31):
get systems of thought, understanding, understanding of beauty, colorism, you know,
who's supposed to be someone I should I should adhere
when it comes to my faith. It's a process and
a process that is so different for everybody. But as
someone who's gone through it, I hope people will find
a way in that beginning, because in as much as
(28:52):
it will be difficult to go through that process, it's
freedom really truly on the other side, the freedom to
keep going, the freedom to still other things. But certainly
this long rigid understanding and Western ideals, a rigid binary
look where we are right now.
Speaker 2 (29:11):
We know, look what a look what a binary? And
I love that you keep coming back to whenever I
point out, you know, hater's gonna hate because they've got
their own pain. Basically you reply to that with I
had my own process. I think even what I just
said there was some unintentional binary thinking and what I
(29:31):
just said, which was, you know, this side who hates
is incorrect and they need to look at like And
you know, I'm telling you the tentacles of binary thought
run run deep even when you're trying to pay attention
to them. And one of the things that I want
to bring in here talking about your own process and
your own journey, that concept of seeing and being seen
(29:53):
was a big thing for me, but also the shifting
sense of what safety means. And I think safety is
an important thing to bring in now while we're talking
about your own process and the reality on the ground.
Right Like coming to the United States, you could change
your gender marker so that you could have at least
political protection, right, but you couldn't have cultural visibility. So
(30:16):
there's a swap of safety's there? Yeah, And then another
swap of safety when you and you go into this
in great detail in the book, So read the book
Everybody Another swap of safety? When you made a decision
to sort of disclose your trans identity in order to
embrace success as a model, can we talk about that,
(30:39):
the decisions that we make around safety.
Speaker 1 (30:43):
And I even when I expand on that notion of
at least in my personal context here the safety, I mean,
there's the immediate safety of intertas VII. When I moved
to New York City to pursue a current in fashion,
I've decided to withhold that identity, not share to my
professional industry. My model agent did not know I was
(31:04):
trans for eight years because the culture did not allow that.
There's no space for that. And my community, particularly trans
woman in fashion that have that have paved the way
for me, were littered with stories of you know, trans
people that the moment they got out of their careers
(31:24):
and it's not God, who are you thrown into trash
as if you did not existed yesterday. It's that you know,
tendency to that, I'd say, spiritual violence. What happens when
someone experiences that, you know, you know, it's my way
to survive, to survive in all aspects of wanting to
(31:47):
make money, you know, and in this career that it chose,
and wanting to feel safe that I could be who
I am by withholding that to feeling a sense of
safety with though limiting to potential, you know, relationship I'm
with and not just speaking about like you know, rantic partners,
(32:09):
but like, yes, it's part of that, but also like
anyone that I would be in relationship with and doing
that for eight years every day of your life. This book,
this book is truly my way of just simply trying
to figure out what happened and what I went through
because I know maybe when I'm moving on two thousand
(32:31):
and five, Yes, I was driven, I was young. I
just want to get through it and get to the
next thing, without realizing how much suffering I was putting
myself into of the disillusionment, the paranoia, the mental anguish
because I was just so driven and I ignore that
other side and I don't think I'll be able to
even like face that during in that moment, There's no way.
(32:53):
So what led me to that and disclosing my transcendentity
on a you know at the TAED conferences because I
was suffering. I was suffering in all aspects. First, how
I see myself, and I think that's I mean, in
that branch yourself to so many different things. So, yeah,
there was a lot of suffering.
Speaker 2 (33:15):
If you're okay with it, Let's talk about that for
a minute. For those people who haven't read your book yet,
you moved to New York to follow your modeling. You
made a decision to not disclose yourself, your true self,
your trans identity. You were out as a transperson in
San Francisco, you had your community there. You write in
(33:37):
the book that stealth mode, So stealth mode is not
disclosing transidentity. There's probably a better description of it or
definition of it than that. But that erasure or that
suppression of self in order to achieve safety and success,
there was a really big cost to that, as you
just alluded to, I almost ask what does that suffering
(33:58):
look like? And then I feel like I'm having my
own Jerry Springer moments of like can we talk about
how bad the scot And I don't want to. I
don't want to do that, and I also want to
to understand here or to talk about like the choices
that you made to protect yourself also cause damage, and
(34:19):
that is the equation that many people have to run
in their heads, like is loneliness the price of safety,
is suffering the price of safety. These are equations that
so many people have to run on a daily basis,
and that has an impact and.
Speaker 1 (34:38):
Does for me. I think in this very particular context
of you know, my life story, We're moving to New
York City. I guess I wanted to do it. I
knew I wanted to do it, But now I look,
but like, why did they emad? Because I was the
industry of my choice was all about being really visible
(35:02):
and covers of magazine, billboards, commercial and it did that,
but also the same at the same time, how do
you consciously become invisible at the same time? You know?
So I also just I mean, I know you were
saying this earlier, but I do want to acknowledge as well,
Like there's there's glimpses of playfulness. You know. When I
(35:24):
was doing it, I was young. I was able to,
you know, also have fund and explore my sensuality with
other men and with other partners. So there's also that.
But because also that as part of my existence, not
as an erasure of this other thing that I have
to go through. But more so, the loneliness is always present.
(35:48):
You know. Sometimes I got over it in that moment,
but that's the constant presence because whenever those you know,
glimpses of where I found power in my feminine expression,
when I'm in a lingerie and a music video to
you know, feelings like oh my god, I did that
catalog job, Oh I did this magazine cover, you know,
(36:11):
like that felt good. I was living the dream of
every young not even a transferson, someone who's from out
of nowhere in the Philippines, in the little alley to
be in New York City and working as a fashion model,
like I was doing it. And those glimpses, as I said,
it is punctured by that constant layer of loneliness that,
(36:32):
like my inner truth could not be fully be accepted here.
And it was. It was very, very tough. It was
very it's very lonely, you know, when I'm when I'm
in when I'm sitting down in line with my thoughts.
This book titled Horse Barbie is you know, I've described it.
(36:52):
It's a it's a spirit. It truly is my this
other spirit that I have to the old thing. I
could keep alive. The only thing that when there's feelings,
when you're so low and you're feeling so lonely, because
at the moment, that's what I was feeling, and because
of obviously that's as I mentioned, that's like the present,
(37:14):
the big constant presence in my journey. The other thing
that would come up with that is what I had
in the Philippines, which is I was that horse Barbie
and that spirit that I carried with me, this vibrant
trans person agen diva that was completely seen by my community,
(37:36):
the whole transphageant culture in the Philippines. That's the one
thing that's sort of you know, the ember that I
had to make sure it stays led to get to
the next thing, to guide me where that light is
taking me. You know that that co exists, but one
sometimes it's more powerful than the other. But certainly the
(37:58):
loneliness far is because I couldn't be constantly or at
least just fully express you know who I am, that
the horse boarwery spirit comes up to, you know, and
there's sometimes in my shoulder. Sometimes I even remember doing
a photo shoot and every time I would see like
anything horse, I clearly remember imagining almost like talking to
(38:22):
like any imagery that resembles horse and I would speak
to it. This almost so surreal, So yeah.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Yeah, it was so you know, the the health risks
of stealth mode, and you wrote about like the the
calculations and the editing that you had to do every day,
and this this idea that like are you really safe
if you can't be your true self? Which is again
a conversation for another day. But there's something really powerful
(38:52):
and that all of these adjustments that you made for safety,
all of these safety trades, that that part of the
process where that Ember, that horse Barbie spirit is in there.
But it's like those those rain clouds are getting close
to this. The loneliness, the anxiety, the stress, the skin conditions,
(39:17):
like all of those things they're encroaching on this and
this Ember cannot go out right. And I love the
little intersections of like I'd be on a photo shoot
and like fully in this thing over here and then
see a horse and be like, oh right, I know
who I am.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
There's so many of that. I mean, yeah right, this
book is so much great. I mean, I don't even
have the word. I mean, like I just go, I mean,
people solves the universe, telling it like you're connected in
this sense, Like there is so many magical coincidence in
this book and in my life and still happens. I
just think that when I really when those things happen,
(39:55):
I really lean into that. Yeah, because it never I
lean into that by acknowledging it. And at the same time,
if there's an opportunity to actually like follow through on that,
you know, whether it's a trend encounter with someone that
maybe we're doing some projects together, or we're traveling to
this because it led to this, let's go there. It
(40:16):
had never led me astray so far.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, I think there's such a such an encouraging message
in there in the midst of suffering, your true self
is speaking and can you find ways to recognize that.
Speaker 1 (40:39):
Wow. Yeah, in the context of you know what I
went through when I was a fashion model, I felt
a deep sense of gratitude because so many transformed like
me never had the chance to take control of their story,
and they all never had it. So as someone who's
(40:59):
also has gone through what they went through in that
particular generation, to be able to step on that ted
main stage, to speak in the biggest speaking platform in
the world and claim my fullness. A lot, a lot
of the women that came before me never had that chance,
(41:20):
so this book is also dedicated to them. I know
I alluded to one particular trans model that was really
a big trajectory of my career. But certainly, you know,
there's so many, so many nameless trans women that their
stories are passing communities as they're both also a sense
of possibility but also a sense of caution.
Speaker 2 (41:40):
So, yeah, that shifting sense of safety was in those
stories about that model that you're speaking of to You
wrote that when you were younger, she was not out
as a transperson at the height of her career, and
that as an aspiring model, you were like, that's that's
how I need to be. Like she did it. Yeah,
she was able to hide that part of herself and
(42:02):
then turning into that cautionary tale when she was outed,
right and how quickly that made everything come down right.
So we also can sort of look at that long
arm of things. And you started out this conversation talking
about the long deep history of the Philippines and that
culture and like the long deep history of what does
(42:25):
safety look like now? And it is certainly not safe
for trans people at this time. If we look at
that long arc though, what was safety in her time
versus safety in your time? And what safety do you
wish for the people who see you out here on
(42:46):
this stage, the stage meaning the world and the dead stage.
But I think that we can also take that shifting
sense of safety as encouraging news and joyful news in
the midst of still currently unfolding suffering.
Speaker 1 (43:03):
Yeah, the people that knows me, at least, you know,
a lot of here in American context of media know
me as someone who did that Ted top right, and
that's where at first here in America knew me in
the public right, that's that advocate, that that public speaker.
(43:23):
And obviously I'm still that And people tend to have
that expectation of this memoir that I was writing. And
I think what I enjoy hearing from people is that
those people do who have those expectations of what maybe
what I would be writing, they think I might be
writing that support this cause, you know, I wanted to
(43:45):
fully honor the fullness of my spirit when when I
decided that I'm going to write this book, and the
fullness of my truth, the fullness of you know, what
gives me pleasure, what makes me happy, what scares me?
My trials and finding love and joy too crazy? You know,
(44:05):
career possibilities, And I think what you're asking you know
about it in this moment we have, is that this
one thing I'll say to young trans folks, transfu, trans people,
gender not conforming people in general, is that live your
most unapologetic self, tell that story and the only way
you know and live that life the only way you know,
(44:28):
while being safe, while you know, being in community with everybody,
because that's really the only way we'll get through this.
Speaker 2 (44:36):
You mentioned joy in our conversation here, but also when
we're talking about your spark and that number, and in
the book you say that's the thing about trans joy,
it can never be fully extinguished. People can try to
narrow the possibilities for our lives and even end them,
but our spirits, our spirits will always expand to fill
whatever space we are given. We will find the power
(44:57):
in us. My god, Yeah, damn girl, that's like so beautiful, right,
And this this is sort of you know, we're winding
down our time here, but this is sort of what
I was getting at when I mentioned earlier about like
I would love it if we didn't have to center
(45:19):
gender as a conversation as a fighting point, and we
could just like have some mundane joy, like can we just.
Speaker 1 (45:29):
And so I know we're getting really emotional. Obviously it's
so emotional. I mean, like imagine when I was recording
that audiobook, it was really there's a lot of tissues.
But I say this, I think in the even in
that particular, I can't help but think that I also
saw for trans people the humor in that because from
(45:53):
our perspective, like the deep, deep, deep, deep deep joy,
and in that as a center of that statement of
what they share, is that the spirit that really keeps
that alive is that the humor around like we know
this and non trans people, you did this, and this
is hilarious that you're making a sufferer. But then that
(46:15):
joy that we have, I know we're going to keep
that alive because it's freaking hilarious. Not in that you know,
forgetting what's you know, how much suffering it leads to,
but certainly it's it's the humor and that and I
think that also is the other side I know from
a translence of people who does not have their live
(46:37):
experience it's hilarious, you know that people, it's a big
deal for people, like we know this, you know, and
then unfortunately the other sides we suffer because of that.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
I love that. I love that we're sort of wrapping
on joy and flamboyance and ridiculousness as the core. The
core ember in there. Right, It's so easy to or
organized around pain, you know.
Speaker 1 (47:02):
I I because I love always being surrounded by community.
I love get together with communities wherever I'm at. We
laugh about these things, yes, you know, when we go
outside within our own community, like this is really truly
hilarious because and if more people see, how you know,
(47:23):
like do.
Speaker 2 (47:23):
You see how ridiculous you're being right now? Like do
you see?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
Like this is so Yeah, we laugh about it, you know,
in our own little space of transness in our community, because.
Speaker 2 (47:35):
Yeah, playful, playfulness, playfulness and joy is safety in so
many ways. All Right, we've kind of hinted at this,
and certainly your book and your talks and the work
that you're doing politically and socially and collectively in the
world are hopeful things. But I'd love to ask you
this question anyway, as we wrap to a close here
(47:57):
soon knowing what you know, living what you have lived,
in all of the multiplicities of lives you have lived.
What does hope look like for you?
Speaker 1 (48:07):
Now? In my own context, it's art. It's really doing
what It's a pursuit of your artistic expression. I mean,
I enjoyed writing this book so much. I know there
will be more books. But I'm also directing, and I
can't wait to jump into that once I'm finished with
my with my book tour. And that's what keeps me.
(48:29):
I can't wait to go back to my board where
or I don't know what I'm about to write, or
what I'm about to create, or what I'm about to
put together. That's joy for me or I don't know.
And the sense of freedom in that pursuit of that
artistic expression, whatever that is, you know, through writing, through speech,
doing speech to you know, any that that what gives me.
(48:51):
Hoping that was really joy, you know where I'm pursuing
my artistic expression.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
So hope is really internal and personal.
Speaker 1 (49:01):
That gets reflected, you know, if I'm in touch with
that without any sense of that pursuit of that artistic expression,
I'd like to believe that it follows anything that I mean,
whoever in the context of my relationship with my immediate surroundings.
Speaker 2 (49:18):
Yeah, I love that. That's a really subtle and complex,
living version of hope, right, Like, I love that. I'm
going to think about that for a while, given that
I am also in the beginning of writing another book,
and sometimes it is a slog and not a creative
hope and enjoy. Anyway, we will link to your book
and to your ted talk in the show notes. But
(49:40):
is there anything else that you would like people to know,
or ways to find you or ways to connect with you.
Speaker 1 (49:45):
People have asked me this, like, I'm very active on
nig So if you've been following me, like, that's really
where I just say it works.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
For me, Like that's where everything is at.
Speaker 1 (49:55):
Where everything is at, So that's following there.
Speaker 2 (49:58):
Okay. We will put your in to in the show notes.
Thank you so much for being here, my friend. Everybody
will be back with your questions to carry with you
right after this book. Each week I leave you with
(50:19):
some questions to carry with you until we meet again.
You know, it really struck me in this conversation with
Gina just how complicated and interrelated everything is, how the
definition of safety changes as the culture changes, and as
more people speak up and share who they are. Right
in a way, it's like we start to create more
(50:41):
safety as people like Gina take those risks of being seen.
It is terrifying to become visible when you're not sure
the world is ready. I love that we touched, even
if just briefly, on the protection that privilege gives you sometimes,
right like, the turning point for Gina was recognize that
with her status as a model, with her relative security
(51:03):
inside that profession, she could risk coming out and coming
out in this massive way on that big ted stage.
She did that. She made that specific choice for the
people who can't afford to risk being visible, and in
doing so, she started to make the world a safer
place for everyone. I mean, I love this, and it
(51:29):
relates to so many different things. The more we create
places where it is safe to tell the truth of
our own experience, the safer the world becomes for the
truth of our own experience. That's just one of many
things that I'm taking from this conversation. How about you,
(51:49):
what's stuck with you? Everybody's going to take something different
from today's show, but I do hope you found something
to hold on too. If you want to tell me
how today's show felt for you, or you have thoughts
on what we covered, let me know. Tag at Refuge
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(52:10):
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(52:31):
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Visibility is important. None of us are entirely okay, and
it's time we start talking about that together. Yeah, it's
(52:53):
okay that you're not okay. You're in good company. That
is it for this week. Everybody, Remember to subscribe to
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Coming up next week, Adrian Marie Brown. That is right, everybody.
Meme Queen, author of Emergent Strategy and Pleasure Activism, will
(53:14):
be right here wherever you get your pods, follow the
show on your favorite platform so you do not miss
an episode. Want more on these topics, Look, grief is everywhere.
As my dad says, daily life is full of everyday
grief that we don't call grief. Learning how to talk
about all of that, learning how to create safe places
where we can tell the truth about our own experience.
(53:36):
That is an important skill set for everyone to learn.
Get help to have those conversations with trainings, professional resources,
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It's Okay that You're Not Okay at The podcast is
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(53:58):
Amy Brown co produced Bilest with Fozsio, logistical and social
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