May 20, 2024 • 54 mins
Can you hide in plain sight?
From trans beauty pageants in the Philippines, to the catwalks of New York City fashion week, to the Ted Talk mainstage – Filipina-American model Geena Rocero has lived an astounding life. This week on It’s OK that You’re Not OK, the author of Horse Barbie: A Memoir shares what it costs to suppress your true self in order to find safety and success, and why joy is powerful medicine.
Geena Rocero is a trans advocate, speaker, and author of the new book, Horse Barbie.
In this episode we cover:
- Why do we have to talk about gender all the time anyway?
- How can parents support trans children?
- The history of trans beauty pageants in the Philippines
- Why joy - and a sense of humor - are real survival tools
We're re-releasing some of our favorite episodes from the first 3 seasons. This episode was originally recorded in 2023.
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related Episodes:
Coming Home to Yourself with Alex Elle
If I Survived, You Can Too! Author Emi Nietfeld on the Hollowness of the Transformation Narrative
Over and Over Again: Illustrator Aubrey Hirsch on the Power of Storytelling
About our guest:
Geena Rocero is a Filipina-American model, public speaker, author, and trans rights advocate. Ms. Rocero made history as the first trans woman ambassador for Miss Universe Nepal, and the first trans Asian Playboy Playmate of the Year. Her TED Talk, “Why I Must Come Out,” has been viewed over 3.7 million times. She’s an advisory board member of SeeHer, a global coalition working to increase representation and accurate portrayal of all women and girls in marketing, media, and entertainment.
She’s spoken at the White House and United Nations, and has been featured on CNN, MSNBC, Glamour, Cosmopolitan, Vanity Fair, and Variety. Her book Horse Barbie: A Memoir was named one of the Best Memoirs of 2023 by Elle Magazine. Find her @geenarocero on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional Resources:
Watch Geena’s TED Talk “Why I Must Come Out”
Read Geena’s book - Horse Barbie: A Memoir
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was living to dream of every young not even
a trans person, someone who's from out of nowhere into
Philippines in the little alley, to be in New York
City and working as a fashion model like I was
doing it. And those glimpses, as I said, is punctured
by that constant layer of loneliness that, like my inner truth,
(00:21):
could not be fully be accepted.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Here this is It's okay that you're not okay, then
I'm your host, Meghan Devine. This week on the show,
author model and trans rights advocate Gina Rossero on what
it means to be visible and why all of us
need to decide for ourselves when it's safe enough to
be seen. Settle in Everybody A complex, nuanced, fascinating conversation
(00:48):
coming up right after this first break. Before we get
started too quick notes one, this episode is an encore performance.
I am on break working on a giant new project,
so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from
(01:09):
the first three seasons of the show. Some of these
conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, and
some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that you
capture all of the goodness second note, While we cover
a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together,
this show is not a substitute for skilled support or
(01:29):
a licensemental health provider, or for professional supervision related to
your work. Take what you learn here, take your thoughts
and your reflections out into your world and talk about it. Hey, friends,
I'm so excited for today's show. It has got everything.
It's got history, it's got culture, it's got fashion, it's
(01:52):
got drama, it's got social commentary, something for everyone. Gina
Rossero is a Filipino American model, speaker and trans rights advocate.
Gina found amazing success as a model at the same
time most of the world, including her colleagues and her
modeling manager, were unaware that she's transgender. Her twenty fourteen
(02:15):
TED talk Why I Must Come Out, has been viewed
over three point seven million times, and you're going to
hear the story of that main stage event during our
conversation together. Gina has spoken at the White House and
the United Nations. She's been featured on CNN and in
Glamour and Cosmo and Vanity Fair and Variety, and she's
the author of the new book Horse Barbie named one
(02:37):
of the Best Memoirs of twenty twenty three by L magazine.
Gina has done so much for both Philippine representation and
for trans visibility in the US and in her native Philippines. Now,
in today's show, we take a fascinating dive into the
history of gender in the Philippines and how that relates
to that visibility invisibility continuum. Know navigate in so many
(03:01):
different ways throughout our lives. That visibility and visibility continuum
thing that is not just fortrans and non binary folks.
Everybody has parts of themselves they hold back. We all
have parts of ourselves we decide to share or not share,
depending on the situation at hand. It's a question that
many of us wrestle with. When is it safe to
(03:23):
be who you are? And when is it safer to
hide that truth. Each choice has its costs and each
choice has its benefits. That you're going to hear all
about that in today's show. This is a wide ranging conversation,
also touching on the ways we celebrate and sometimes fetishize
certain people in specific settings and then bully them or
(03:44):
otherwise subject those same people to violence once they're off stage.
We also touch on family systems and how to support, protect,
and encourage the people you love. We explore immigration and
advocacy and power. I mean, I told you that this
episode has it all fashion, intrigue, history, culture, drama, and
it's got a deep, honest, real conversation about what it
(04:07):
means to be visible in a world that doesn't always
want you to exist. Let's get to it, Friends with
the excellent Gina Rossea. Gina, I am so glad to
have you here with me today. I've literally spent like
the last three days swimming in your world, with your
book and your talks and like all of the things
(04:28):
that you're up to. So I'm like, I always feel
like we've I've hung out with my guests before I
actually meet you. So I'm glad to have you here
in video person.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this convent.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
As I said, I have been like in deep dive
with you and your work and your story. So there
are lots of places that we could begin our conversation.
But there's a theme that came up for me again
and again as I read your book and I listened
to you speak. There's almost this like call and response
that weaves through your life of the power of both
(05:00):
seeing and being seen. I imagine this like sight glass or this,
you know, like the set of binoculars, but like that
shift back and forth between the seer and the scene
and the power and the vulnerability in both. Does that
feel accurate?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, I think, I mean just tracing back, you know,
my life. I mean, I mean, writing this book, certainly
it's my way to just reconnect in that journey you know,
I've always been. You know, as I've finished writing this book,
I just definitely recognize that I'm in that quest of
(05:38):
finding my place in the world, finding my place in
the cultural context, emotional context, where I'm at, But certainly
that that changes, and not just my own question in
finding that, but certainly how that immediate surrounding response to
who I am in that moment in my life. So yeah,
I'm always in constant dynamic, soundly in conversation, but more
(06:02):
so there's always a reflection of where I'm at in
my life. You know, in the chapters in the life
story that I shared.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You write about, you know, being a child and being
really seen by your mom as who you are and
sort of this really I think I think those two
twin things, right, like the the cultural and spiritual backdrop
of the Philippines where gender fluidity is culturally accepted, and
then pairing that with really being seen by your mom
(06:35):
for who you are. It's like that initial being seen
is the foundation of what else became possible.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
You know. I was just in DC and I did
a couple of engagements there and there's a woman that
I mean, I'm a Philippino. We have so many communities
in so many different places that I felt absolutely welcome.
So after all my engagements, we had a dinner party
get together and are okay, and there was a woman
there who who's a Filipina and she has trans kids,
(07:08):
and she came up to me, and I just want
to acknowledge that, like obviously she's very emotional, especially in
this moment what we're seeing right now. There was a
moment when we're having a conversation and she felt like
this is the least that I could do, which is
to be there for my kids. And I have to
sort of ground her and saying that this is not
the least that you could do. This is as what
(07:29):
you're saying, this is the foundation of who I am.
I'm able to have that vision, had a sense of freedom,
has sense of joy, have a sense of playfulness because
I was granted by my family, my mom, my dad,
who was very supportive in spite of you know, the
(07:49):
immediate surroundings that they have, which is the contradictions of
a very conservative, strict Catholic culture in the Philippine. So,
you know, taking from what you said to that particular
interaction that I had, it is truly the foundation of
who I am. You know, that love that my parents
shared with me.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I almost feel like it's a protective force in a way.
I mean, you literally write about that in the book
when you're writing about your mom. You were bullied by
kids and actually by adults as well, but you write
that not only did your mom's love protect you, but
your communities love for your mother also protected you. Can
(08:29):
you tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Growing up in the Philippines, it's a very it's all
about the community. Moving to America and understanding this thing
called individualism was so freaking weird to me and the
Philippines who don't exist as an individual. You know, I
have been sharing and I think it's so important to
really truly acknowledge that I'd like to think that I'm
(08:51):
very grateful that I never lost that sense of community.
And what I mean by that community for us is
fair ingrained in our souls and in our spirit. We
have this word called papa in the Philippines, which is basically,
your innerself is always shared with others, and through that sharing,
you're always a reflection of whoever you're surrounded with. And
(09:14):
with that, because my mom is well loved, not just
obviously love. We love her, our immediate neighborhood loves her her.
You know her as a teacher in elementary school for
twenty three years. Everyone loved her. That carried a certain security,
certain comfort, certain integrity. And I was protected by that
(09:35):
because anything outside of my family, you know, I hear
the bullying. I get chased, I got you know, peaced,
I got taunt I got you know, adults will call
me names.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
It's so fascinating and horrifying. Right you write that in
the Philippines, gender fluidity is cultural accepted, but not politically protected.
As I was reading that, I was thinking about, you know,
in India, like the reverence of female deity, but also
the subjugation and violence against women. Right like these twin
(10:11):
things that show up so much, like this veneration of
the ethereal female and the desecration of the carnal female,
Like what is up with that? I mean, the season
is itself.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I mean, that's that. We could deconstruct that. But particularly
in the Philippines, let me make some correction. Is yeah,
I wouldn't say it's culturally accepted. It's a big word acceptance,
a word for me to I think at certainly in
the context in the Philippines, it's culturally visible, okay, but
not politically recognize. And let me also just say, you know,
(10:48):
because I was born and raised in the Philippines, half
of my life in the Philippines, half here, in many
of my conversations I always have to not always have to,
but I need to be aware of that context of
where that perspective is situated. And in my conversations I
always say that, Okay, sometimes I operate with this context
because I really have that global perspective. As I share
(11:11):
that in my book, as I share that story, it's
very big. As we talked about this force of some
might say duality, some might say contradiction. For us, it's
not a contradiction it's an amalgamation of forces, you know,
from a Western American lens. You know, we might have
this critical analysis and I do have now obviously, but
(11:35):
growing up in the Philippines, it's just part of this
missmash of so many forces that have led to where
we are now. And obviously we're speaking about this very
vibrant transgender beauty pageant culture that we have in the
Phillipines that is part of mainstream culture, and you know,
it's so embedded in our culture. As we talked about,
(11:57):
like gender fluidity, so many different dialects, but there's so
many words for the role of trans people played in
pre colonial Philippines. I mean, we have the word called babaylan,
which are the spiritual leaders. I have a tattoo this
is a pre colonial script in the Philippines for characters.
Is Lai is a gender fluid Let's just say the
(12:20):
word trans goddess of fertility, goddess of harvest, you know,
like before we were colonized by Spain. We're an anime's culture,
so we pray to trans deities, you know, for harvests.
So you have that baseline of a culture that is
well documented. It is in our very language to galog
(12:41):
as many of the dialects. We have hundreds something dialects
in the Philippines around that range, and it's gender neutral.
We don't have he or sheep because in pre colonial Philippines,
your role in society is not determined by your gender.
Isn't egalitarian culture. It's the role in your immediate community,
in your immediate society or kingdoms is determined by what
(13:05):
you offer. But you know, you're the specific role that
you want to play act having that choice, you know.
And then obviously when fifteen twenty one came or a
Spanish colony for three hundred and thirty three years, and
thus the introduction of you know, Abrahamic patriarchal approach to existence,
you know, the introduction of Catholic calendar. And then we
(13:29):
switched from animism to you know, obviously animism in touch
with nature's spirituality, to thematic Catholicism, and that we have
this thing called Fiesta celebration, right, we celebrate you know,
different saints, Catholic patrons, all of our de Philippines throughout
the year. And then eighteen ninety eight, you know, Spanish
American War, we were purchased by America for twenty million
(13:52):
from Spain. And then when we were a colony of
America for fifty years, our colonizer would put on this
pageant called Carnival Queen and the winner would sort of
become like this bridge of that friendship, become almost like
a beauty ambassador. So you have those influences, and what
we have now is an amalgamation of all those forces.
(14:13):
That's why we have this bare vibrant or gender be
they pagan culture, you know that is so part of
mainstream culture. But also because and then when they say
about like we're not politically recognized, what I specifically mean
by that is and our legal documents still to this day,
you can't change name in gender market and your legal
documents as a transperson in the Philippines because our systems
(14:35):
of government that what we have now is an American system,
and an American system that lives on understanding of gender
as a binary, there won't be a space for that.
And it's also important to point out that you know,
in the Philippines a long, long history of LGBTQ queer activism.
(14:55):
So the fight for trans people to be who we
are it is a long battle. I think those kind
of encapsulate so much, but I think it clearly traces
why we have that right now. You know that vibrancy
of trans beauty pageant culture and how it exists in
you know, yes, contradictory, yes, sort of incomplete way of
(15:20):
seeing trans people as full citizens in the country.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
One of the things I think of as you describe
all of that, like all of those different forces. I
can't remember exactly what you said in there, but it
made me think of like some of the sort of
homophobic pushback against Pride Month you and I are recording
this conversation during Pride Month, is like, why do we
have to know about your gender?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Like something you said and what you were talking about
was like, this didn't used to be a quote unquote issue.
It used to be an understood reality and that gender
is fluid and this is just how it is, right,
And it were structures that came in sort of again
I'm doing air quotes here for everybody like made an
issue of gender, and sometimes that pushback around trans rights
(16:07):
or queer rights or even honestly women's rights is like,
why do we have to know about your gender? And
it's because violence and political acts and exclusion is based
on gender. That's why you have to know about my gender,
do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not describing
(16:28):
this as well as it came up in my head
when you mentioned it, but there really is something about
like I know that pushback, I've heard that pushback doing
this work of like it's the same thing that we
say about sort of lip service to the queer community.
Is like, I don't care who you love. I just
want to stop hearing about it, right, And that's a
lot of pushback against trans rights and transactivism is like
(16:50):
I don't care what you quote unquote think you are.
Why do I have to hear about it?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
You alluded to it, how it's connected to obviously how
feminism women's right are also connected to way, let's also
acknowledged that this is a country based and like, you know,
anything for in proximity to white patriarchy is the systems
of thought, systems of spirit of this country. And I
think the reason why we could say that that's not
(17:17):
even the using the term intersectional, but just it just
is because anything outside the systems of thought of white
American patriarchy is something to be attacked. It's something to
be not you know, to accept or not have that
immediate freedom that that that it should be afforded. Because
(17:40):
with what we just went through as a as a
as a as a population in this world, you know,
the pandemic, the supposed racial reckoning, we having gone to
unpacking like anti Asian hate. You know, you would think
that really we are beginning to unpack all of that.
(18:00):
But again, unfortunately, over and over again, we're going back
to the same thing. Not until the supposed idea promise
of a culture and a country that offers freedom unless
we don't really always talk about like the history of
that foundation of that freedom, that idea of that freedom
(18:22):
that was not if you're not a white man, you're
not part of that. And we're still there, We're still
getting that conversation because how do we impact that. I mean, yes,
we could have conversations, and I'm saying that in this
bigger approach, you know, because it's that's the ground base
of varied this, you know, of what we're fighting against.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
It's this idea that like we have to have these
conversations because violence is now, violence is happening, exclusion is happening,
Like we're continuing that path, Like we would love to
be able to stop having conversations about trauma and pain
and violence, Like we would love to stop having those conversations,
(19:08):
but we can't stop having those conversations until things change, right,
Like the way to stop hearing quote unquote conversations about
gender is to make the world a safer and more
equitable and welcoming place. Like that's how you can't stop
having to hear about it. Hey, before we get back
(19:31):
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show notes. All right, let's get back to my conversation
with Gina Rosso. Something that comes up for me. You know,
I started out with a question about seeing and being seen,
(20:39):
and there's scene spelled with it. Sc There's a scene
early in your book where you're talking about bullying in
your childhood and you come home and you look in
the mirror and ask yourself, like, why is my femininity
femininity such a threat? Right? And it's that people seeing
(21:02):
you who you are as a threat. I think our
inability to recognize that we have an emotional response to
somebody else, that that is our stuff and not their stuff, right.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I think, especially young trans people is acutely aware of
this at such a young age, you know, and because
you just know, you just know your truth at that
young age. And I'm not really just saying that. I
like to preach out like people know or we do know,
and what prevents us from pursuing the thing that we
(21:36):
know is anything outside our heads, from our parents to
our customs or immediate communities or surroundings, the schools, anything
that's like outside of that early processes of recognizing our
own truths, and the people outside of that that doesn't
recognize that, that becomes a problem. But we know at
(21:59):
a young age, you know, I mean science fact. This
this is not a debate. This has been proven over
and over and it's the product of the cultures that
doesn't allow for that. Even in the culture in the
Philippines where you have that their vibrant transpit, the Pathean
culture still not enough, you know. So imagine you're in
America when you actually don't see it, like in an
(22:22):
American context, when a young trans kids, you know, express
anything outside where you're supposed, you know, a sign gender,
you are going to be made fun of, You're going
to get a talent. And unfortunately that's what we're seeing
right now. And suppose mature people or evolve people, but
not you.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Know, yeah, I remember reading that you said you're your
first exposure to a trans person when you got to
the US was on the Jerry Springer Show.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Oh yeah, I've been thinking about this, just just in
a way to trace the initial conversation that we're having
is that in the Philippines, trans people are culturally visible
but not politically recognized.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So when I moved to America at seventeen years old
to be with my mom after being separated for five years,
and moving here as a seventeen year old who has
had this incredible career as a transpageant diva in the Philippines, right,
I was at the pinnacle of my career. And when
she told me that I could move here because I
(23:25):
could be legally recognized as a woman and my gender marker,
I moved here and as a seventeen year old coming
from a culture of being a transpageant diva to yes,
moving here and I see the f and my gender
marker and makes me so happy. And it's as if
my mom spoke magic to me, and she she granted
(23:46):
my wish. But when I asked her, so, where are
the transpageants, she was like, there's some such thing here.
So that was the beginning of the shop. But then
because my reference of trans people that I saw on
TV in the Philippines, I'm not saying is all perfect,
but I'm saying, like my reference is transpageant that's shown
on TV in the Philippines. So when I saw on
(24:07):
TV my first transrepresentation was on Jerry Springer, it was
a shot. Now I know that was the beginning of
shame of who I am, and whether I didn't have
the words at the time, I felt it. I remember
bagging looking at it, not just like what had happened,
(24:27):
but also the way it happened. I mean, he recently
passed to and I remember there's so many conversations a
line of so many trans women that part of that
meaning they've been on Jerry spring and not just Jerry Springer.
There's a lot of different shows that were doing that.
It was a mix of, you know, a sense of healing,
sense of being retriggered about that experience in that very
(24:51):
specific point in our culture. But there was also this
other side, like in the moment that's the only way
truly for them to have a space where they could
dress up. Some of them. I've heard they got paid,
thank god. But also there's as you said, there's this
being seen and how you're seen. But more so I
just didn't know what was going to happen. But I
(25:12):
could feel what's about to happen even before I saw
it happening, you know, the way he would bother up
the situation to like and then the shock. Because I've
been thinking about this so much as my point of reference,
that is the personification of how America's is gender. I'm
not just specifically talking about transgender identity, but gender as
(25:32):
a whole, which is, if it's not from the lens
of an older white man who has the mic, who
is an executive producer, has the power to command what's
being done, You're a freak. You're not going to be
given access to your full humanity.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I mean that freak label is what we give
to anyone who brings up feelings in us that we
don't know how to handle, that are uncomfortable for us,
that we don't have a space for. Like, the only
way to deal with the emotions that come up for
you when you see someone who is different than you
(26:11):
is to otherise, is to make them wrong, right, and
then weaponize that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, I'm out there. I'm talking about the book. I
work a lot with transfers. Obviously, they're always in my mind,
especially with what's happening now. There's the other side of
that conversation too. I mean, you know you're alluding to
it in a way about I know now as someone
who has gone through my own journey of unpacking my
(26:37):
own shame of barely surviving because of that shame, surviving
meaning you know, feeling a sense of a life well lived.
You know, I do know this now, and I speak
about it a lot, and I want I always continuously
share that with especially young trans kids, is that we
(26:58):
have the power this reaction action of what we're seeing
now and through the lens of someone who's not quote
unquote accepting of trans people and gender nonconformity, I'd say
people are very afraid of looking at themselves. You know,
what we do and who we are, and how all
(27:20):
trans people and gender non conforming people, including the ground
base of the history that we talked about earlier in
the history of the world, pre colonial times, we've always
had that role. But because that people don't want to
accept that, their only reaction is to ignore with that aside,
attacked it and do whatever it takes for it to
(27:42):
not come up. Because they're so afraid to look within themselves.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
We're all a product of the patriarchal colonial model, right,
and your fears and discomfort when you look at anyone
you've decided as outside of you and outside of okayness,
like that is that is a function of colonialism, That
is a function of binary thought. That is not how
humans work, right, We just we don't sure it's not
(28:09):
it truly truly is not right, like gender is a
human construct. Okay, that's a whole different conversation. But like this,
for me, this comes back to a grief issue, right,
Like that, we don't talk about the ways to grieve
our inheritance. We don't talk about the ways to identify
the disservice to self and disservice to soul that being
(28:33):
a citizen of this world gives us.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yes, let me also just say I'm like I'm speaking
about it now. I just when I acknowledge that I
myself have gone through my own journey to get to
this thought process, a very difficult task, you know, and
of unpacking so much of my own colonial understanding of
(28:56):
I get systems of thought, understanding understanding of beauty, color,
and you know, who's supposed to be someone I should
I should adhere when it comes to my faith. It's
a process and a process that is so different for everybody,
but as someone who's gone through it, I hope people
will find a way in that beginning, because in as
(29:16):
much as it will be difficult to go through that process,
it's freedom, really truly on the other side, freedom to
keep going, the freedom to still find other things. But
certainly this long, rigid understanding and Western ideals a rigid binary.
Look where we are right now?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
We know, look what a look what a binary? And
I love that you keep coming back to whenever I
point out, you know, haters gonna hate because they've got
their own pain. Basically you reply to that with I
had my own process. I think even what I just
said there was some unintentional binary thinking and what I
(29:56):
just said, which was, you know, this side who hates
is incorrect and they need to look at like And
you know, I'm telling you the tentacles of binary thought
run run deep, even when you're trying to pay attention
to them. And one of the things that I want
to bring in here talking about your own process and
your own journey, that concept of seeing and being seen
(30:18):
was a big thing for me, but also the shifting
sense of what safety means. And I think safety is
an important thing to bring in now while we're talking
about your own process and the reality on the ground. Right,
Like coming to the United States, you could change your
gender marker so that you could have at least political protection, right,
(30:38):
but you couldn't have cultural visibility. So there's a swap
of safety's there?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And then another swap of safety when you and you
go into this in great detail in the book, so
read the book, everybody. Another swap of safety when you
made a decision to sort of disclose your trans identity
in order to brace success as a model m Can
we talk about that, the decisions that we make around safety.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And I even when I expand on that notion of
at least in my personal contacts here the safety, I mean,
there's the immediate safety of into tax envib. When I
moved to New York City to pursue a current in fashion,
I decided to withhold that identity, not share to my
professional industry. My model agent did not know I was
(31:29):
trans for eight years because the culture did not allow that.
There's no space for that. And my community, particularly trans
women in fashion, that have that have paved a way
for me. Were littered with stories of you know, trans
people that the moment they got out of their careers
(31:49):
and it's God, who are you thrown into trash? As
if you did not existed yesterday. It's that you know,
tendency to that, I'd say, spiritual violence. What happens when
someone experiences that? You know, you know, it's my way
to survive, to survive in all aspects of wanting to
(32:12):
make money, you know, and in this career that it chose,
and wanting to feel safe that I could be who
I am by withholding that to feeling a sense of
safety with though limiting to potential, you know, relationship I'm
with and not just speaking about like you know, rantic partners,
(32:34):
but like, yes, it's part of that, but also like
anyone that I would be in relationship with and doing
that for eight years every day of your life. This book,
this book is truly my way of just simply trying
to figure out what happened and what I went through
because I know, maybe when I'm moving on two thousand
(32:56):
and five, Yes, I was driven, I was young. I
just want to get through it and get to the
next thing. Without realizing how much suffering. I was bringing
myself into of the disillusionment, the paranoia, the mental anguish
because I was just so driven and I ignore that
other side, and I don't think I'll be able to
even like face that jury in that moment, there's no way.
(33:18):
So what led me to that in disclosing my transcendentity
on at the TAD conferences Because I was suffering. I
was suffering in all aspects. First how I see myself
and I think that's I mean, and that branch yourself
to so many different things. So yeah, there was a
lot of suffering.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
If you're okay with it, let's talk about that for
a minute. For those people who haven't read your book yet,
you moved to New York to follow your modeling, you
made a decision to not disclose yourself, your true self,
your trans identity. You were out as a transperson in
San Francisco, you had your community. You write in the
(34:01):
book that that stealth mode. So stealth mode is not
disclosing transidentity. There's probably a better description of it or
definition of it than that. But that erasure or that
suppression of self in order to achieve safety and success,
there was a really big cost to that, as you
just alluded to, I almost ask what does that suffering
(34:23):
look like? And then I feel like I'm having my
own Jerry Springer moments of like can we talk about
how bad the Scott and I don't. I don't want
to do that, And I also want to understand here
or to talk about, like the choices that you made
to protect yourself also cause damage. And that is the
(34:44):
equation that many people have to run in their heads,
like is loneliness the price of safety? Is suffering the
price of safety. These are equations that so many people
have to run on a daily and that has an impact.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It does. But for me, I think in this very
particular context of you know, my life story, We're moving
to New York City. I was young. I guess I
wanted to do it. I knew I wanted to do it,
But now I looks like, like, why did the imagers?
Because I was my industry of my choice was all
about being literally visible and covers of magazine, billboards, commercial
(35:31):
and it did that. But also to say, at the
same time, how do you consciously become invisible at the
same time? You know, so I also just and I
know you were saying this earlier, but I do want
to acknowledge as well, Like there's there's glimpses of playfulness.
You know, when I was doing I was young, I
was able to, you know, also have fun, explore my
(35:54):
sensuality with other men and with other partners. So there's
also that, but because also that as part of my existence,
not as an erasure of this other thing that I
have to go through. But more so, the loneliness is
always present. You know. Sometimes I got over it in
(36:16):
that moment, but that's the constant presence because whenever those
you know, glimpses of where I found power in my
feminine expression, when I'm in a lingerie and a music
video to you know, feelings like oh my god, I
did that catalog job, Oh I did this magazine cover,
you know, like that felt good. I was living the
(36:38):
dream of every young not even a transferson, someone who's
from out of nowhere in the Philippines, in the little alley,
to be in New York City and working as a
fashion model like I was doing it. And those glimpses,
as I said, is punctured by that constant layer of
loneliness that, like my inner truth, could not be fully
(37:00):
be accepted here. And it was. It was very, very tough.
It was very it's very lonely you know, when I'm
when I'm and when I'm sitting down in mine with
my thoughts. This book titled Horse Barbie is you know
I've described it. It's a it's a spirit. It truly
is my this other spirit that I have to the
(37:24):
only thing I could keep alive, the only thing that
when there's feelings, when you're so low and you're feeling
so lonely, because at the moment, that's what I was feeling,
and because of obviously that's as I mentioned, that's like
the present, the big constant presence in my journey. The
other thing that would come up with that is what
(37:46):
I had in the Philippines, which is I was that
Horse Barbie and that spirit that I carried with me,
this vibrant trans person agen diva that was completely seen
by my community, the whole transpagan culture in the Philippines.
That's the one thing that sort of you know, the
(38:08):
ember that I had to make sure it stays lit
to get to the next thing, to guide me where
that light is taking me. You know that co exists,
but one sometimes it's more powerful than the other. But
certainly the loneliness far is because I couldn't be constantly
or at least just fully express you know, who I am.
(38:31):
But the horsepowery spirit comes up to, you know, and
there's sometimes in my shoulders. Sometimes. I even remember doing
a photo shoot and every time I would see like
anything horse, I clearly remember imagining almost like talking to
like any imagery that resembles horse, and I would speak
to it. It's almost so surreal.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So yeah, yeah, So you know the health risks of
stealth mode, and you wrote about like the the calculations
and the editing that you had to do every day,
and this this idea that like are you really safe
if you can't be your true self? Which is again
(39:13):
a conversation for another day. But there's something really powerful
and that all of these adjustments that you made for safety,
all of these safety trades, that that part of the
process where that ember, that horse Barbie spirit is in there.
But it's like those those rain clouds are getting close
(39:35):
to this. The loneliness, the anxiety, the stress, the skin conditions,
like all of those things they're encroaching on this and
this Ember cannot go out right, And I love the
little intersections of like I'd be on a photo shoot
and like fully in this thing over here and then
see a horse and be like, oh, right, I know
(39:56):
who I am.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
There's so many of that. I mean, you read this
book is so much great. I mean, I don't even
have the word. I mean, like I just go. I mean,
people saves the universe telling it like you're connected in
this sense, Like there is so many magical coincidence in
this book and in my life and still happens. I
just think that when I really when those things happen,
(40:20):
I really lean into that because it never I lean
into that by acknowledging it. And at the same time,
if there's an opportunity to actually like follow through on that,
you know, whether it's a trend encounter with someone that
maybe we're doing some projects together, Oh we're traveling to
this because it led to this, let's go there. It
(40:41):
had never led me astray so far.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, I think there's such a such an encouraging message
in there. In the midst of suffering, your true self
is speaking and can you find ways to recognize that. Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, in the context of you know what I went
through when I was a fashion model. I felt the
deep sense of gratitude because so many trans women like
me never had the chance to take control of their story,
and they all never had it. So, as someone who
also has gone through what they went through in that
(41:27):
particular generation, to be able to step on that ted
main stage, to speak in the biggest speaking platform in
the world and claim my fullness, a lot a lot
of the women that came before me never had that chance,
So this book is also dedicated to them. I know
(41:49):
I alluded to one particular trans model that was really
a big trajectory of my career, but certainly, you know,
there's so many, so many nameless trans women that their
stories are passing communities. As you're both also a sense
of possibility but also a sense of cautious So, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
That shifting sense of safety was in those stories about
that model that you're speaking of to You wrote that
when you were younger, she was not out as a
transperson at the height of her career, and that as
an aspiring model, you were like, that's how I need
to be like she did it. Yeah, she was able
to hide that part of herself and then turning into
(42:27):
that cautionary tale when she was outed, right and how
quickly that made everything come down right, So we also
can sort of look at that long arm of things.
And you started out this conversation talking about the long
deep history of the Philippines and that culture, and like
the long deep history of what does safety look like now?
(42:52):
And it is certainly not safe for trans people at
this time. If we look at that long arc though,
what was safety in her time versus safety in your time?
And what safety do you wish for the people who
see you out here on this stage, the stage meaning
the world and the dead stage. But right like there,
(43:15):
I think that we can also take that shifting sense
of safety as encouraging news and joyful news in the
midst of still currently unfolding suffering.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah, the people that knows me, at least, you know,
a lot of here in American context of media know
me as someone who did that dead talk, right, And
that's where at first here in America knew me in
the public rights that advocate that that public speaker, And
(43:48):
obviously I'm still that and people tend to have that
expectation of this memoir that I was writing, and I
think what I enjoy hearing from people. Is that those
people do who have those expectations of what maybe what
I would be writing, they think I might be writing.
Let's support this cause, you know, yeah, I wanted to
(44:09):
fully honor the fullness of my spirit. And when when
I decided that I'm going to write this book and
the fullness of my truth, the fullness of you know,
what gives me pleasure, what makes me happy, what scares me,
my trials and finding love and joy too, you know, crazy,
(44:30):
you know, career possibilities, And I think what you're asking,
you know about in this moment we have is that
that's one thing I'll say, too, young trans folks, TRANSI,
trans people, gender not conforming people in general that live
your most unapologetic self, tell that story and the only
(44:50):
way you know and live that life the only way
you know, while being safe, while you know, being in
community with everybody, because that's really the only way we'll
get through this.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
You mentioned joy in our conversation here, but also when
we were talking about your spark and that ember, and
in the book you say, that's the thing about trans joy,
it can never be fully extinguished. People can try to
narrow the possibilities for our lives and even end them.
But our spirits, our spirits will always expand to fill
whatever space we are given. We will find the power
(45:22):
in us.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
My god.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
Yeah, damn girl, that's like it's so beautiful, right, And
this is sort of you know, we're winding down our
time here, but this is sort of what I was
getting at when I mentioned earlier about like I would
love it if we didn't have to center gender as
a conversation as a fighting point and we could just
(45:48):
like have some mundane joy, Like can we just.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
So I know we're getting really emotional. Obviously it's so emotional.
I mean, I imagine I was recording that audiobook I
need a break, need It was really there's a lot
of tissues. But I say this, I think in the
even in that particular, I can't help but think that
I also saw for trans people the humor in that
(46:17):
because from our perspective, like the deep, deep, deep, deep
deep joy, and in that as a center of that
statement of what they share, is that the spirit that
really keeps that alive, is that the humor around like
we know this and non trans people, you did this,
and this is hilarious that you're making a sufferer. But
(46:39):
then that joy that we have, I know we're going
to keep that alive because it's freaking hilarious, not in that,
you know, forgetting what's you know, how much suffering it
leads to, but certainly it's it's the humor and that
and I think that also is the other side, I know,
from a translence of people who does not have their
(47:02):
live experience, it's hilarious, you know that people, it's a
big deal for people like we know this, you know,
and then unfortunately the other sides we suffer because of that.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I love that. I love that we're sort of wrapping
on joy and flamboyance and ridiculousness as the core. The
core ember in there, right. It's so easy to organize
around pain.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
You know. I I because I love always being surrounded
by community. I love get together with communities wherever I'm at.
We laugh about these things, yes, you know, when we
go outside within our own community, like this is really
truly hilarious because and if more people see, how you.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Know, like do you see how ridiculous you're being right now?
Like do you see like this is so.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Yeah, we laugh about it, you know, in our own
little space of transness. In our community, because.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, playful, playfulness, playfulness and joy is safety in so
many ways. All Right, we've kind of hinted at this,
and certainly your book and your talks and the work
that you're doing politically and socially and collectively in the
world are hopeful things. But I'd love to ask you
this question anyway, as we wrap to a close here soon,
(48:23):
knowing what you know, living what you have lived, in
all of the multiplicities of lives you have lived, what
does hope look like for you? Now?
Speaker 1 (48:33):
In my own context, it's art. It's really doing what
It's a pursuit of your artistic expression. I mean, I
enjoy writing this book so much. I know there will
be more books. But I'm also directing, and I can't
wait to jump into that once I'm finished with my
book tour. And that's what keeps me. I can't wait
(48:55):
to go back to my board where or I don't
know what I'm about to write, what I'm about to create,
or what I'm about to put together. That's joy for
me or I don't know. And the sense of freedom
in that pursuit of that artistic expression, whatever that is,
you know, through writing through speech, doing speech to you
know any that that what gives me hoping? That was
(49:17):
really joy. You know, where I'm pursuing my artistic expression.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
So hope is really internal and personal.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
That gets reflected, you know, if I'm in touch with
that without any sense of that pursuit of that artistic expression,
I'd like to believe that it follows anything that I'm
in Whoever, in the context of my relationship with my
immediate surroundings.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Yeah, I love that. That's a really subtle and complex,
living version of hope, right, Like, I love that. I'm
going to think about that for a while, given that
I am also in the beginning of writing another book,
and sometimes it is a slog and not a creative
hope and joy. Anyway, we will link to your book
and to your ted talk in the show notes. But
(50:05):
is there anything else that you would like people to
know or ways to find you or ways to connect
with you.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
People have asked me this, Like I'm very active on
NIG So if you've been following me, like, that's really
where I just say it works for me.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Like that's where everything is at.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Where everything is at, So that's follow me there. Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
We will put your insta in the show notes, thank
you so much for being here, my friend. Everybody will
be back with your questions to carry with you right
after this break. Each week I leave you with some
(50:44):
questions to carry with you until we meet again. You know,
it really struck me in this conversation with Gina, just
how complicated and interrelated everything is. How the definition of
safety changes as the culture changes and as more people
speak up and share who they are. Right in a way,
(51:04):
it's like we start to create more safety as people
like Gina take those risks of being seen. It is
terrifying to become visible when you're not sure the world
is ready. I love that we touched, even if just briefly,
on the protection that privilege gives you sometimes, right like,
the turning point for Gina was recognizing that with her
(51:25):
status as a model, with her relative security inside that profession,
she could risk coming out and coming out in this
massive way on that big ted stage. She did that.
She made that specific choice for the people who can't
afford to risk being visible, and in doing so, she
(51:45):
started to make the world a safer place for everyone.
I mean, I love this and it relates to so
many different things. The more we create places where it
is safe to tell the truth of our own experience,
the safer the world becomes for the truth of our
(52:06):
own experience. That's just one of many things that I'm
taking from this conversation. How about you, what's stuck with you?
Everybody's going to take something different from today's show, but
I do hope you found something to hold on too.
If you want to tell me how today's show felt
for you, or you have thoughts on what we covered,
(52:26):
let me know. Tag at Refuge and Grief on all
the social platforms so I can hear how this conversation
affected you. Another great way to tell me will you
think about this episode or what you think about the
show in general, is to leave a review for the show.
You can do that on Apple Podcasts and some of
the other platforms too. Reviews are great for me because
(52:46):
I get to hear your thinking, but they also help
encourage other people to listen to the show. Reviews are us.
You can follow the show at It's Okaypod on TikTok
and Refuge and Grief everywhere else. To see video clips
from today's show, use the hashtag It's Okay pod on
all the platforms, so not only I can find you,
(53:06):
but others can too. Visibility is important. None of us
are entirely okay, and it's time we start talking about
that together. Yeah, it's okay that you're not okay. You're
in good company. Want more on these topics. Look, grief
(53:26):
is everywhere. As my dad says, daily life is full
of everyday grief that we don't call grief. Learning how
to talk about all of that, learning how to create
safe places where we can tell the truth about our
own experience. That is an important skill set for everyone
to learn. Get help to have those conversations with trainings,
professional resources, and my best selling book, It's Okay that
(53:47):
You're Not Okay, plus the guided Journal for Grief at
Megandivine dot co. It's Okay that You're Not Okay at
The podcast is written and produced by me Megan Divine.
Executive Producer is a Brown Co produced by Elizabeth Fozzio,
Logistical and social media support from Micah, Post production and
editing by Houston Tilley. Our intern this season is Hannah Goldman.
(54:10):
Music provided by Wave Crush and background noise provided by
The Mockingbird Endlessly singing on the roof All day and
all night.
I was living to dream of every young not even
a trans person, someone who's from out of nowhere into
Philippines in the little alley, to be in New York
City and working as a fashion model like I was
doing it. And those glimpses, as I said, is punctured
by that constant layer of loneliness that, like my inner truth,
(00:21):
could not be fully be accepted.
Speaker 2 (00:23):
Here this is It's okay that you're not okay, then
I'm your host, Meghan Devine. This week on the show,
author model and trans rights advocate Gina Rossero on what
it means to be visible and why all of us
need to decide for ourselves when it's safe enough to
be seen. Settle in Everybody A complex, nuanced, fascinating conversation
(00:48):
coming up right after this first break. Before we get
started too quick notes one, this episode is an encore performance.
I am on break working on a giant new project,
so we're releasing a mix of our favorite episodes from
(01:09):
the first three seasons of the show. Some of these
conversations you might have missed in their original seasons, and
some shows just truly deserve multiple listens so that you
capture all of the goodness second note, While we cover
a lot of emotional relational territory in our time here together,
this show is not a substitute for skilled support or
(01:29):
a licensemental health provider, or for professional supervision related to
your work. Take what you learn here, take your thoughts
and your reflections out into your world and talk about it. Hey, friends,
I'm so excited for today's show. It has got everything.
It's got history, it's got culture, it's got fashion, it's
(01:52):
got drama, it's got social commentary, something for everyone. Gina
Rossero is a Filipino American model, speaker and trans rights advocate.
Gina found amazing success as a model at the same
time most of the world, including her colleagues and her
modeling manager, were unaware that she's transgender. Her twenty fourteen
(02:15):
TED talk Why I Must Come Out, has been viewed
over three point seven million times, and you're going to
hear the story of that main stage event during our
conversation together. Gina has spoken at the White House and
the United Nations. She's been featured on CNN and in
Glamour and Cosmo and Vanity Fair and Variety, and she's
the author of the new book Horse Barbie named one
(02:37):
of the Best Memoirs of twenty twenty three by L magazine.
Gina has done so much for both Philippine representation and
for trans visibility in the US and in her native Philippines. Now,
in today's show, we take a fascinating dive into the
history of gender in the Philippines and how that relates
to that visibility invisibility continuum. Know navigate in so many
(03:01):
different ways throughout our lives. That visibility and visibility continuum
thing that is not just fortrans and non binary folks.
Everybody has parts of themselves they hold back. We all
have parts of ourselves we decide to share or not share,
depending on the situation at hand. It's a question that
many of us wrestle with. When is it safe to
(03:23):
be who you are? And when is it safer to
hide that truth. Each choice has its costs and each
choice has its benefits. That you're going to hear all
about that in today's show. This is a wide ranging conversation,
also touching on the ways we celebrate and sometimes fetishize
certain people in specific settings and then bully them or
(03:44):
otherwise subject those same people to violence once they're off stage.
We also touch on family systems and how to support, protect,
and encourage the people you love. We explore immigration and
advocacy and power. I mean, I told you that this
episode has it all fashion, intrigue, history, culture, drama, and
it's got a deep, honest, real conversation about what it
(04:07):
means to be visible in a world that doesn't always
want you to exist. Let's get to it, Friends with
the excellent Gina Rossea. Gina, I am so glad to
have you here with me today. I've literally spent like
the last three days swimming in your world, with your
book and your talks and like all of the things
(04:28):
that you're up to. So I'm like, I always feel
like we've I've hung out with my guests before I
actually meet you. So I'm glad to have you here
in video person.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
Thank you for having me. I'm excited for this convent.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
As I said, I have been like in deep dive
with you and your work and your story. So there
are lots of places that we could begin our conversation.
But there's a theme that came up for me again
and again as I read your book and I listened
to you speak. There's almost this like call and response
that weaves through your life of the power of both
(05:00):
seeing and being seen. I imagine this like sight glass or this,
you know, like the set of binoculars, but like that
shift back and forth between the seer and the scene
and the power and the vulnerability in both. Does that
feel accurate?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Yeah, I think, I mean just tracing back, you know,
my life. I mean, I mean, writing this book, certainly
it's my way to just reconnect in that journey you know,
I've always been. You know, as I've finished writing this book,
I just definitely recognize that I'm in that quest of
(05:38):
finding my place in the world, finding my place in
the cultural context, emotional context, where I'm at, But certainly
that that changes, and not just my own question in
finding that, but certainly how that immediate surrounding response to
who I am in that moment in my life. So yeah,
I'm always in constant dynamic, soundly in conversation, but more
(06:02):
so there's always a reflection of where I'm at in
my life. You know, in the chapters in the life
story that I shared.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
You write about, you know, being a child and being
really seen by your mom as who you are and
sort of this really I think I think those two
twin things, right, like the the cultural and spiritual backdrop
of the Philippines where gender fluidity is culturally accepted, and
then pairing that with really being seen by your mom
(06:35):
for who you are. It's like that initial being seen
is the foundation of what else became possible.
Speaker 1 (06:44):
You know. I was just in DC and I did
a couple of engagements there and there's a woman that
I mean, I'm a Philippino. We have so many communities
in so many different places that I felt absolutely welcome.
So after all my engagements, we had a dinner party
get together and are okay, and there was a woman
there who who's a Filipina and she has trans kids,
(07:08):
and she came up to me, and I just want
to acknowledge that, like obviously she's very emotional, especially in
this moment what we're seeing right now. There was a
moment when we're having a conversation and she felt like
this is the least that I could do, which is
to be there for my kids. And I have to
sort of ground her and saying that this is not
the least that you could do. This is as what
(07:29):
you're saying, this is the foundation of who I am.
I'm able to have that vision, had a sense of freedom,
has sense of joy, have a sense of playfulness because
I was granted by my family, my mom, my dad,
who was very supportive in spite of you know, the
(07:49):
immediate surroundings that they have, which is the contradictions of
a very conservative, strict Catholic culture in the Philippine. So,
you know, taking from what you said to that particular
interaction that I had, it is truly the foundation of
who I am. You know, that love that my parents
shared with me.
Speaker 2 (08:07):
I almost feel like it's a protective force in a way.
I mean, you literally write about that in the book
when you're writing about your mom. You were bullied by
kids and actually by adults as well, but you write
that not only did your mom's love protect you, but
your communities love for your mother also protected you. Can
(08:29):
you tell us about that.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
Growing up in the Philippines, it's a very it's all
about the community. Moving to America and understanding this thing
called individualism was so freaking weird to me and the
Philippines who don't exist as an individual. You know, I
have been sharing and I think it's so important to
really truly acknowledge that I'd like to think that I'm
(08:51):
very grateful that I never lost that sense of community.
And what I mean by that community for us is
fair ingrained in our souls and in our spirit. We
have this word called papa in the Philippines, which is basically,
your innerself is always shared with others, and through that sharing,
you're always a reflection of whoever you're surrounded with. And
(09:14):
with that, because my mom is well loved, not just
obviously love. We love her, our immediate neighborhood loves her her.
You know her as a teacher in elementary school for
twenty three years. Everyone loved her. That carried a certain security,
certain comfort, certain integrity. And I was protected by that
(09:35):
because anything outside of my family, you know, I hear
the bullying. I get chased, I got you know, peaced,
I got taunt I got you know, adults will call
me names.
Speaker 2 (09:48):
It's so fascinating and horrifying. Right you write that in
the Philippines, gender fluidity is cultural accepted, but not politically protected.
As I was reading that, I was thinking about, you know,
in India, like the reverence of female deity, but also
the subjugation and violence against women. Right like these twin
(10:11):
things that show up so much, like this veneration of
the ethereal female and the desecration of the carnal female,
Like what is up with that? I mean, the season
is itself.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
I mean, that's that. We could deconstruct that. But particularly
in the Philippines, let me make some correction. Is yeah,
I wouldn't say it's culturally accepted. It's a big word acceptance,
a word for me to I think at certainly in
the context in the Philippines, it's culturally visible, okay, but
not politically recognize. And let me also just say, you know,
(10:48):
because I was born and raised in the Philippines, half
of my life in the Philippines, half here, in many
of my conversations I always have to not always have to,
but I need to be aware of that context of
where that perspective is situated. And in my conversations I
always say that, Okay, sometimes I operate with this context
because I really have that global perspective. As I share
(11:11):
that in my book, as I share that story, it's
very big. As we talked about this force of some
might say duality, some might say contradiction. For us, it's
not a contradiction it's an amalgamation of forces, you know,
from a Western American lens. You know, we might have
this critical analysis and I do have now obviously, but
(11:35):
growing up in the Philippines, it's just part of this
missmash of so many forces that have led to where
we are now. And obviously we're speaking about this very
vibrant transgender beauty pageant culture that we have in the
Phillipines that is part of mainstream culture, and you know,
it's so embedded in our culture. As we talked about,
(11:57):
like gender fluidity, so many different dialects, but there's so
many words for the role of trans people played in
pre colonial Philippines. I mean, we have the word called babaylan,
which are the spiritual leaders. I have a tattoo this
is a pre colonial script in the Philippines for characters.
Is Lai is a gender fluid Let's just say the
(12:20):
word trans goddess of fertility, goddess of harvest, you know,
like before we were colonized by Spain. We're an anime's culture,
so we pray to trans deities, you know, for harvests.
So you have that baseline of a culture that is
well documented. It is in our very language to galog
(12:41):
as many of the dialects. We have hundreds something dialects
in the Philippines around that range, and it's gender neutral.
We don't have he or sheep because in pre colonial Philippines,
your role in society is not determined by your gender.
Isn't egalitarian culture. It's the role in your immediate community,
in your immediate society or kingdoms is determined by what
(13:05):
you offer. But you know, you're the specific role that
you want to play act having that choice, you know.
And then obviously when fifteen twenty one came or a
Spanish colony for three hundred and thirty three years, and
thus the introduction of you know, Abrahamic patriarchal approach to existence,
you know, the introduction of Catholic calendar. And then we
(13:29):
switched from animism to you know, obviously animism in touch
with nature's spirituality, to thematic Catholicism, and that we have
this thing called Fiesta celebration, right, we celebrate you know,
different saints, Catholic patrons, all of our de Philippines throughout
the year. And then eighteen ninety eight, you know, Spanish
American War, we were purchased by America for twenty million
(13:52):
from Spain. And then when we were a colony of
America for fifty years, our colonizer would put on this
pageant called Carnival Queen and the winner would sort of
become like this bridge of that friendship, become almost like
a beauty ambassador. So you have those influences, and what
we have now is an amalgamation of all those forces.
(14:13):
That's why we have this bare vibrant or gender be
they pagan culture, you know that is so part of
mainstream culture. But also because and then when they say
about like we're not politically recognized, what I specifically mean
by that is and our legal documents still to this day,
you can't change name in gender market and your legal
documents as a transperson in the Philippines because our systems
(14:35):
of government that what we have now is an American system,
and an American system that lives on understanding of gender
as a binary, there won't be a space for that.
And it's also important to point out that you know,
in the Philippines a long, long history of LGBTQ queer activism.
(14:55):
So the fight for trans people to be who we
are it is a long battle. I think those kind
of encapsulate so much, but I think it clearly traces
why we have that right now. You know that vibrancy
of trans beauty pageant culture and how it exists in
you know, yes, contradictory, yes, sort of incomplete way of
(15:20):
seeing trans people as full citizens in the country.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
One of the things I think of as you describe
all of that, like all of those different forces. I
can't remember exactly what you said in there, but it
made me think of like some of the sort of
homophobic pushback against Pride Month you and I are recording
this conversation during Pride Month, is like, why do we
have to know about your gender?
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Right?
Speaker 2 (15:43):
Like something you said and what you were talking about
was like, this didn't used to be a quote unquote issue.
It used to be an understood reality and that gender
is fluid and this is just how it is, right,
And it were structures that came in sort of again
I'm doing air quotes here for everybody like made an
issue of gender, and sometimes that pushback around trans rights
(16:07):
or queer rights or even honestly women's rights is like,
why do we have to know about your gender? And
it's because violence and political acts and exclusion is based
on gender. That's why you have to know about my gender,
do you know what I mean? Like, I'm not describing
(16:28):
this as well as it came up in my head
when you mentioned it, but there really is something about
like I know that pushback, I've heard that pushback doing
this work of like it's the same thing that we
say about sort of lip service to the queer community.
Is like, I don't care who you love. I just
want to stop hearing about it, right, And that's a
lot of pushback against trans rights and transactivism is like
(16:50):
I don't care what you quote unquote think you are.
Why do I have to hear about it?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
You alluded to it, how it's connected to obviously how
feminism women's right are also connected to way, let's also
acknowledged that this is a country based and like, you know,
anything for in proximity to white patriarchy is the systems
of thought, systems of spirit of this country. And I
think the reason why we could say that that's not
(17:17):
even the using the term intersectional, but just it just
is because anything outside the systems of thought of white
American patriarchy is something to be attacked. It's something to
be not you know, to accept or not have that
immediate freedom that that that it should be afforded. Because
(17:40):
with what we just went through as a as a
as a as a population in this world, you know,
the pandemic, the supposed racial reckoning, we having gone to
unpacking like anti Asian hate. You know, you would think
that really we are beginning to unpack all of that.
(18:00):
But again, unfortunately, over and over again, we're going back
to the same thing. Not until the supposed idea promise
of a culture and a country that offers freedom unless
we don't really always talk about like the history of
that foundation of that freedom, that idea of that freedom
(18:22):
that was not if you're not a white man, you're
not part of that. And we're still there, We're still
getting that conversation because how do we impact that. I mean, yes,
we could have conversations, and I'm saying that in this
bigger approach, you know, because it's that's the ground base
of varied this, you know, of what we're fighting against.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
It's this idea that like we have to have these
conversations because violence is now, violence is happening, exclusion is happening,
Like we're continuing that path, Like we would love to
be able to stop having conversations about trauma and pain
and violence, Like we would love to stop having those conversations,
(19:08):
but we can't stop having those conversations until things change, right,
Like the way to stop hearing quote unquote conversations about
gender is to make the world a safer and more
equitable and welcoming place. Like that's how you can't stop
having to hear about it. Hey, before we get back
(19:31):
to this week's guest, I want to talk with you
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show notes. All right, let's get back to my conversation
with Gina Rosso. Something that comes up for me. You know,
I started out with a question about seeing and being seen,
(20:39):
and there's scene spelled with it. Sc There's a scene
early in your book where you're talking about bullying in
your childhood and you come home and you look in
the mirror and ask yourself, like, why is my femininity
femininity such a threat? Right? And it's that people seeing
(21:02):
you who you are as a threat. I think our
inability to recognize that we have an emotional response to
somebody else, that that is our stuff and not their stuff, right.
Speaker 1 (21:15):
I think, especially young trans people is acutely aware of
this at such a young age, you know, and because
you just know, you just know your truth at that
young age. And I'm not really just saying that. I
like to preach out like people know or we do know,
and what prevents us from pursuing the thing that we
(21:36):
know is anything outside our heads, from our parents to
our customs or immediate communities or surroundings, the schools, anything
that's like outside of that early processes of recognizing our
own truths, and the people outside of that that doesn't
recognize that, that becomes a problem. But we know at
(21:59):
a young age, you know, I mean science fact. This
this is not a debate. This has been proven over
and over and it's the product of the cultures that
doesn't allow for that. Even in the culture in the
Philippines where you have that their vibrant transpit, the Pathean
culture still not enough, you know. So imagine you're in
America when you actually don't see it, like in an
(22:22):
American context, when a young trans kids, you know, express
anything outside where you're supposed, you know, a sign gender,
you are going to be made fun of, You're going
to get a talent. And unfortunately that's what we're seeing
right now. And suppose mature people or evolve people, but
not you.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Know, yeah, I remember reading that you said you're your
first exposure to a trans person when you got to
the US was on the Jerry Springer Show.
Speaker 3 (22:52):
Oh yeah, I've been thinking about this, just just in
a way to trace the initial conversation that we're having
is that in the Philippines, trans people are culturally visible
but not politically recognized.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So when I moved to America at seventeen years old
to be with my mom after being separated for five years,
and moving here as a seventeen year old who has
had this incredible career as a transpageant diva in the Philippines, right,
I was at the pinnacle of my career. And when
she told me that I could move here because I
(23:25):
could be legally recognized as a woman and my gender marker,
I moved here and as a seventeen year old coming
from a culture of being a transpageant diva to yes,
moving here and I see the f and my gender
marker and makes me so happy. And it's as if
my mom spoke magic to me, and she she granted
(23:46):
my wish. But when I asked her, so, where are
the transpageants, she was like, there's some such thing here.
So that was the beginning of the shop. But then
because my reference of trans people that I saw on
TV in the Philippines, I'm not saying is all perfect,
but I'm saying, like my reference is transpageant that's shown
on TV in the Philippines. So when I saw on
(24:07):
TV my first transrepresentation was on Jerry Springer, it was
a shot. Now I know that was the beginning of
shame of who I am, and whether I didn't have
the words at the time, I felt it. I remember
bagging looking at it, not just like what had happened,
(24:27):
but also the way it happened. I mean, he recently
passed to and I remember there's so many conversations a
line of so many trans women that part of that
meaning they've been on Jerry spring and not just Jerry Springer.
There's a lot of different shows that were doing that.
It was a mix of, you know, a sense of healing,
sense of being retriggered about that experience in that very
(24:51):
specific point in our culture. But there was also this
other side, like in the moment that's the only way
truly for them to have a space where they could
dress up. Some of them. I've heard they got paid,
thank god. But also there's as you said, there's this
being seen and how you're seen. But more so I
just didn't know what was going to happen. But I
(25:12):
could feel what's about to happen even before I saw
it happening, you know, the way he would bother up
the situation to like and then the shock. Because I've
been thinking about this so much as my point of reference,
that is the personification of how America's is gender. I'm
not just specifically talking about transgender identity, but gender as
(25:32):
a whole, which is, if it's not from the lens
of an older white man who has the mic, who
is an executive producer, has the power to command what's
being done, You're a freak. You're not going to be
given access to your full humanity.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
Yeah, I mean that freak label is what we give
to anyone who brings up feelings in us that we
don't know how to handle, that are uncomfortable for us,
that we don't have a space for. Like, the only
way to deal with the emotions that come up for
you when you see someone who is different than you
(26:11):
is to otherise, is to make them wrong, right, and
then weaponize that.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Yeah, I'm out there. I'm talking about the book. I
work a lot with transfers. Obviously, they're always in my mind,
especially with what's happening now. There's the other side of
that conversation too. I mean, you know you're alluding to
it in a way about I know now as someone
who has gone through my own journey of unpacking my
(26:37):
own shame of barely surviving because of that shame, surviving
meaning you know, feeling a sense of a life well lived.
You know, I do know this now, and I speak
about it a lot, and I want I always continuously
share that with especially young trans kids, is that we
(26:58):
have the power this reaction action of what we're seeing
now and through the lens of someone who's not quote
unquote accepting of trans people and gender nonconformity, I'd say
people are very afraid of looking at themselves. You know,
what we do and who we are, and how all
(27:20):
trans people and gender non conforming people, including the ground
base of the history that we talked about earlier in
the history of the world, pre colonial times, we've always
had that role. But because that people don't want to
accept that, their only reaction is to ignore with that aside,
attacked it and do whatever it takes for it to
(27:42):
not come up. Because they're so afraid to look within themselves.
Speaker 2 (27:46):
We're all a product of the patriarchal colonial model, right,
and your fears and discomfort when you look at anyone
you've decided as outside of you and outside of okayness,
like that is that is a function of colonialism, That
is a function of binary thought. That is not how
humans work, right, We just we don't sure it's not
(28:09):
it truly truly is not right, like gender is a
human construct. Okay, that's a whole different conversation. But like this,
for me, this comes back to a grief issue, right,
Like that, we don't talk about the ways to grieve
our inheritance. We don't talk about the ways to identify
the disservice to self and disservice to soul that being
(28:33):
a citizen of this world gives us.
Speaker 1 (28:35):
Yes, let me also just say I'm like I'm speaking
about it now. I just when I acknowledge that I
myself have gone through my own journey to get to
this thought process, a very difficult task, you know, and
of unpacking so much of my own colonial understanding of
(28:56):
I get systems of thought, understanding understanding of beauty, color,
and you know, who's supposed to be someone I should
I should adhere when it comes to my faith. It's
a process and a process that is so different for everybody,
but as someone who's gone through it, I hope people
will find a way in that beginning, because in as
(29:16):
much as it will be difficult to go through that process,
it's freedom, really truly on the other side, freedom to
keep going, the freedom to still find other things. But
certainly this long, rigid understanding and Western ideals a rigid binary.
Look where we are right now?
Speaker 2 (29:36):
We know, look what a look what a binary? And
I love that you keep coming back to whenever I
point out, you know, haters gonna hate because they've got
their own pain. Basically you reply to that with I
had my own process. I think even what I just
said there was some unintentional binary thinking and what I
(29:56):
just said, which was, you know, this side who hates
is incorrect and they need to look at like And
you know, I'm telling you the tentacles of binary thought
run run deep, even when you're trying to pay attention
to them. And one of the things that I want
to bring in here talking about your own process and
your own journey, that concept of seeing and being seen
(30:18):
was a big thing for me, but also the shifting
sense of what safety means. And I think safety is
an important thing to bring in now while we're talking
about your own process and the reality on the ground. Right,
Like coming to the United States, you could change your
gender marker so that you could have at least political protection, right,
(30:38):
but you couldn't have cultural visibility. So there's a swap
of safety's there?
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (30:44):
And then another swap of safety when you and you
go into this in great detail in the book, so
read the book, everybody. Another swap of safety when you
made a decision to sort of disclose your trans identity
in order to brace success as a model m Can
we talk about that, the decisions that we make around safety.
Speaker 1 (31:08):
And I even when I expand on that notion of
at least in my personal contacts here the safety, I mean,
there's the immediate safety of into tax envib. When I
moved to New York City to pursue a current in fashion,
I decided to withhold that identity, not share to my
professional industry. My model agent did not know I was
(31:29):
trans for eight years because the culture did not allow that.
There's no space for that. And my community, particularly trans
women in fashion, that have that have paved a way
for me. Were littered with stories of you know, trans
people that the moment they got out of their careers
(31:49):
and it's God, who are you thrown into trash? As
if you did not existed yesterday. It's that you know,
tendency to that, I'd say, spiritual violence. What happens when
someone experiences that? You know, you know, it's my way
to survive, to survive in all aspects of wanting to
(32:12):
make money, you know, and in this career that it chose,
and wanting to feel safe that I could be who
I am by withholding that to feeling a sense of
safety with though limiting to potential, you know, relationship I'm
with and not just speaking about like you know, rantic partners,
(32:34):
but like, yes, it's part of that, but also like
anyone that I would be in relationship with and doing
that for eight years every day of your life. This book,
this book is truly my way of just simply trying
to figure out what happened and what I went through
because I know, maybe when I'm moving on two thousand
(32:56):
and five, Yes, I was driven, I was young. I
just want to get through it and get to the
next thing. Without realizing how much suffering. I was bringing
myself into of the disillusionment, the paranoia, the mental anguish
because I was just so driven and I ignore that
other side, and I don't think I'll be able to
even like face that jury in that moment, there's no way.
(33:18):
So what led me to that in disclosing my transcendentity
on at the TAD conferences Because I was suffering. I
was suffering in all aspects. First how I see myself
and I think that's I mean, and that branch yourself
to so many different things. So yeah, there was a
lot of suffering.
Speaker 2 (33:40):
If you're okay with it, let's talk about that for
a minute. For those people who haven't read your book yet,
you moved to New York to follow your modeling, you
made a decision to not disclose yourself, your true self,
your trans identity. You were out as a transperson in
San Francisco, you had your community. You write in the
(34:01):
book that that stealth mode. So stealth mode is not
disclosing transidentity. There's probably a better description of it or
definition of it than that. But that erasure or that
suppression of self in order to achieve safety and success,
there was a really big cost to that, as you
just alluded to, I almost ask what does that suffering
(34:23):
look like? And then I feel like I'm having my
own Jerry Springer moments of like can we talk about
how bad the Scott and I don't. I don't want
to do that, And I also want to understand here
or to talk about, like the choices that you made
to protect yourself also cause damage. And that is the
(34:44):
equation that many people have to run in their heads,
like is loneliness the price of safety? Is suffering the
price of safety. These are equations that so many people
have to run on a daily and that has an impact.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
It does. But for me, I think in this very
particular context of you know, my life story, We're moving
to New York City. I was young. I guess I
wanted to do it. I knew I wanted to do it,
But now I looks like, like, why did the imagers?
Because I was my industry of my choice was all
about being literally visible and covers of magazine, billboards, commercial
(35:31):
and it did that. But also to say, at the
same time, how do you consciously become invisible at the
same time? You know, so I also just and I
know you were saying this earlier, but I do want
to acknowledge as well, Like there's there's glimpses of playfulness.
You know, when I was doing I was young, I
was able to, you know, also have fun, explore my
(35:54):
sensuality with other men and with other partners. So there's
also that, but because also that as part of my existence,
not as an erasure of this other thing that I
have to go through. But more so, the loneliness is
always present. You know. Sometimes I got over it in
(36:16):
that moment, but that's the constant presence because whenever those
you know, glimpses of where I found power in my
feminine expression, when I'm in a lingerie and a music
video to you know, feelings like oh my god, I
did that catalog job, Oh I did this magazine cover,
you know, like that felt good. I was living the
(36:38):
dream of every young not even a transferson, someone who's
from out of nowhere in the Philippines, in the little alley,
to be in New York City and working as a
fashion model like I was doing it. And those glimpses,
as I said, is punctured by that constant layer of
loneliness that, like my inner truth, could not be fully
(37:00):
be accepted here. And it was. It was very, very tough.
It was very it's very lonely you know, when I'm
when I'm and when I'm sitting down in mine with
my thoughts. This book titled Horse Barbie is you know
I've described it. It's a it's a spirit. It truly
is my this other spirit that I have to the
(37:24):
only thing I could keep alive, the only thing that
when there's feelings, when you're so low and you're feeling
so lonely, because at the moment, that's what I was feeling,
and because of obviously that's as I mentioned, that's like
the present, the big constant presence in my journey. The
other thing that would come up with that is what
(37:46):
I had in the Philippines, which is I was that
Horse Barbie and that spirit that I carried with me,
this vibrant trans person agen diva that was completely seen
by my community, the whole transpagan culture in the Philippines.
That's the one thing that sort of you know, the
(38:08):
ember that I had to make sure it stays lit
to get to the next thing, to guide me where
that light is taking me. You know that co exists,
but one sometimes it's more powerful than the other. But
certainly the loneliness far is because I couldn't be constantly
or at least just fully express you know, who I am.
(38:31):
But the horsepowery spirit comes up to, you know, and
there's sometimes in my shoulders. Sometimes. I even remember doing
a photo shoot and every time I would see like
anything horse, I clearly remember imagining almost like talking to
like any imagery that resembles horse, and I would speak
to it. It's almost so surreal.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
So yeah, yeah, So you know the health risks of
stealth mode, and you wrote about like the the calculations
and the editing that you had to do every day,
and this this idea that like are you really safe
if you can't be your true self? Which is again
(39:13):
a conversation for another day. But there's something really powerful
and that all of these adjustments that you made for safety,
all of these safety trades, that that part of the
process where that ember, that horse Barbie spirit is in there.
But it's like those those rain clouds are getting close
(39:35):
to this. The loneliness, the anxiety, the stress, the skin conditions,
like all of those things they're encroaching on this and
this Ember cannot go out right, And I love the
little intersections of like I'd be on a photo shoot
and like fully in this thing over here and then
see a horse and be like, oh, right, I know
(39:56):
who I am.
Speaker 1 (39:58):
There's so many of that. I mean, you read this
book is so much great. I mean, I don't even
have the word. I mean, like I just go. I mean,
people saves the universe telling it like you're connected in
this sense, Like there is so many magical coincidence in
this book and in my life and still happens. I
just think that when I really when those things happen,
(40:20):
I really lean into that because it never I lean
into that by acknowledging it. And at the same time,
if there's an opportunity to actually like follow through on that,
you know, whether it's a trend encounter with someone that
maybe we're doing some projects together, Oh we're traveling to
this because it led to this, let's go there. It
(40:41):
had never led me astray so far.
Speaker 2 (40:46):
Yeah, I think there's such a such an encouraging message
in there. In the midst of suffering, your true self
is speaking and can you find ways to recognize that. Wow.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
Yeah, in the context of you know what I went
through when I was a fashion model. I felt the
deep sense of gratitude because so many trans women like
me never had the chance to take control of their story,
and they all never had it. So, as someone who
also has gone through what they went through in that
(41:27):
particular generation, to be able to step on that ted
main stage, to speak in the biggest speaking platform in
the world and claim my fullness, a lot a lot
of the women that came before me never had that chance,
So this book is also dedicated to them. I know
(41:49):
I alluded to one particular trans model that was really
a big trajectory of my career, but certainly, you know,
there's so many, so many nameless trans women that their
stories are passing communities. As you're both also a sense
of possibility but also a sense of cautious So, yeah.
Speaker 2 (42:07):
That shifting sense of safety was in those stories about
that model that you're speaking of to You wrote that
when you were younger, she was not out as a
transperson at the height of her career, and that as
an aspiring model, you were like, that's how I need
to be like she did it. Yeah, she was able
to hide that part of herself and then turning into
(42:27):
that cautionary tale when she was outed, right and how
quickly that made everything come down right, So we also
can sort of look at that long arm of things.
And you started out this conversation talking about the long
deep history of the Philippines and that culture, and like
the long deep history of what does safety look like now?
(42:52):
And it is certainly not safe for trans people at
this time. If we look at that long arc though,
what was safety in her time versus safety in your time?
And what safety do you wish for the people who
see you out here on this stage, the stage meaning
the world and the dead stage. But right like there,
(43:15):
I think that we can also take that shifting sense
of safety as encouraging news and joyful news in the
midst of still currently unfolding suffering.
Speaker 1 (43:27):
Yeah, the people that knows me, at least, you know,
a lot of here in American context of media know
me as someone who did that dead talk, right, And
that's where at first here in America knew me in
the public rights that advocate that that public speaker, And
(43:48):
obviously I'm still that and people tend to have that
expectation of this memoir that I was writing, and I
think what I enjoy hearing from people. Is that those
people do who have those expectations of what maybe what
I would be writing, they think I might be writing.
Let's support this cause, you know, yeah, I wanted to
(44:09):
fully honor the fullness of my spirit. And when when
I decided that I'm going to write this book and
the fullness of my truth, the fullness of you know,
what gives me pleasure, what makes me happy, what scares me,
my trials and finding love and joy too, you know, crazy,
(44:30):
you know, career possibilities, And I think what you're asking,
you know about in this moment we have is that
that's one thing I'll say, too, young trans folks, TRANSI,
trans people, gender not conforming people in general that live
your most unapologetic self, tell that story and the only
(44:50):
way you know and live that life the only way
you know, while being safe, while you know, being in
community with everybody, because that's really the only way we'll
get through this.
Speaker 2 (45:01):
You mentioned joy in our conversation here, but also when
we were talking about your spark and that ember, and
in the book you say, that's the thing about trans joy,
it can never be fully extinguished. People can try to
narrow the possibilities for our lives and even end them.
But our spirits, our spirits will always expand to fill
whatever space we are given. We will find the power
(45:22):
in us.
Speaker 1 (45:24):
My god.
Speaker 4 (45:28):
Yeah, damn girl, that's like it's so beautiful, right, And
this is sort of you know, we're winding down our
time here, but this is sort of what I was
getting at when I mentioned earlier about like I would
love it if we didn't have to center gender as
a conversation as a fighting point and we could just
(45:48):
like have some mundane joy, Like can we just.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
So I know we're getting really emotional. Obviously it's so emotional.
I mean, I imagine I was recording that audiobook I
need a break, need It was really there's a lot
of tissues. But I say this, I think in the
even in that particular, I can't help but think that
I also saw for trans people the humor in that
(46:17):
because from our perspective, like the deep, deep, deep, deep
deep joy, and in that as a center of that
statement of what they share, is that the spirit that
really keeps that alive, is that the humor around like
we know this and non trans people, you did this,
and this is hilarious that you're making a sufferer. But
(46:39):
then that joy that we have, I know we're going
to keep that alive because it's freaking hilarious, not in that,
you know, forgetting what's you know, how much suffering it
leads to, but certainly it's it's the humor and that
and I think that also is the other side, I know,
from a translence of people who does not have their
(47:02):
live experience, it's hilarious, you know that people, it's a
big deal for people like we know this, you know,
and then unfortunately the other sides we suffer because of that.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
I love that. I love that we're sort of wrapping
on joy and flamboyance and ridiculousness as the core. The
core ember in there, right. It's so easy to organize
around pain.
Speaker 1 (47:26):
You know. I I because I love always being surrounded
by community. I love get together with communities wherever I'm at.
We laugh about these things, yes, you know, when we
go outside within our own community, like this is really
truly hilarious because and if more people see, how you.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
Know, like do you see how ridiculous you're being right now?
Like do you see like this is so.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Yeah, we laugh about it, you know, in our own
little space of transness. In our community, because.
Speaker 2 (48:00):
Yeah, playful, playfulness, playfulness and joy is safety in so
many ways. All Right, we've kind of hinted at this,
and certainly your book and your talks and the work
that you're doing politically and socially and collectively in the
world are hopeful things. But I'd love to ask you
this question anyway, as we wrap to a close here soon,
(48:23):
knowing what you know, living what you have lived, in
all of the multiplicities of lives you have lived, what
does hope look like for you? Now?
Speaker 1 (48:33):
In my own context, it's art. It's really doing what
It's a pursuit of your artistic expression. I mean, I
enjoy writing this book so much. I know there will
be more books. But I'm also directing, and I can't
wait to jump into that once I'm finished with my
book tour. And that's what keeps me. I can't wait
(48:55):
to go back to my board where or I don't
know what I'm about to write, what I'm about to create,
or what I'm about to put together. That's joy for
me or I don't know. And the sense of freedom
in that pursuit of that artistic expression, whatever that is,
you know, through writing through speech, doing speech to you
know any that that what gives me hoping? That was
(49:17):
really joy. You know, where I'm pursuing my artistic expression.
Speaker 2 (49:23):
So hope is really internal and personal.
Speaker 1 (49:26):
That gets reflected, you know, if I'm in touch with
that without any sense of that pursuit of that artistic expression,
I'd like to believe that it follows anything that I'm
in Whoever, in the context of my relationship with my
immediate surroundings.
Speaker 2 (49:43):
Yeah, I love that. That's a really subtle and complex,
living version of hope, right, Like, I love that. I'm
going to think about that for a while, given that
I am also in the beginning of writing another book,
and sometimes it is a slog and not a creative
hope and joy. Anyway, we will link to your book
and to your ted talk in the show notes. But
(50:05):
is there anything else that you would like people to
know or ways to find you or ways to connect
with you.
Speaker 1 (50:10):
People have asked me this, Like I'm very active on
NIG So if you've been following me, like, that's really
where I just say it works for me.
Speaker 2 (50:18):
Like that's where everything is at.
Speaker 1 (50:20):
Where everything is at, So that's follow me there. Okay.
Speaker 2 (50:23):
We will put your insta in the show notes, thank
you so much for being here, my friend. Everybody will
be back with your questions to carry with you right
after this break. Each week I leave you with some
(50:44):
questions to carry with you until we meet again. You know,
it really struck me in this conversation with Gina, just
how complicated and interrelated everything is. How the definition of
safety changes as the culture changes and as more people
speak up and share who they are. Right in a way,
(51:04):
it's like we start to create more safety as people
like Gina take those risks of being seen. It is
terrifying to become visible when you're not sure the world
is ready. I love that we touched, even if just briefly,
on the protection that privilege gives you sometimes, right like,
the turning point for Gina was recognizing that with her
(51:25):
status as a model, with her relative security inside that profession,
she could risk coming out and coming out in this
massive way on that big ted stage. She did that.
She made that specific choice for the people who can't
afford to risk being visible, and in doing so, she
(51:45):
started to make the world a safer place for everyone.
I mean, I love this and it relates to so
many different things. The more we create places where it
is safe to tell the truth of our own experience,
the safer the world becomes for the truth of our
(52:06):
own experience. That's just one of many things that I'm
taking from this conversation. How about you, what's stuck with you?
Everybody's going to take something different from today's show, but
I do hope you found something to hold on too.
If you want to tell me how today's show felt
for you, or you have thoughts on what we covered,
(52:26):
let me know. Tag at Refuge and Grief on all
the social platforms so I can hear how this conversation
affected you. Another great way to tell me will you
think about this episode or what you think about the
show in general, is to leave a review for the show.
You can do that on Apple Podcasts and some of
the other platforms too. Reviews are great for me because
(52:46):
I get to hear your thinking, but they also help
encourage other people to listen to the show. Reviews are us.
You can follow the show at It's Okaypod on TikTok
and Refuge and Grief everywhere else. To see video clips
from today's show, use the hashtag It's Okay pod on
all the platforms, so not only I can find you,
(53:06):
but others can too. Visibility is important. None of us
are entirely okay, and it's time we start talking about
that together. Yeah, it's okay that you're not okay. You're
in good company. Want more on these topics. Look, grief
(53:26):
is everywhere. As my dad says, daily life is full
of everyday grief that we don't call grief. Learning how
to talk about all of that, learning how to create
safe places where we can tell the truth about our
own experience. That is an important skill set for everyone
to learn. Get help to have those conversations with trainings,
professional resources, and my best selling book, It's Okay that
(53:47):
You're Not Okay, plus the guided Journal for Grief at
Megandivine dot co. It's Okay that You're Not Okay at
The podcast is written and produced by me Megan Divine.
Executive Producer is a Brown Co produced by Elizabeth Fozzio,
Logistical and social media support from Micah, Post production and
editing by Houston Tilley. Our intern this season is Hannah Goldman.
(54:10):
Music provided by Wave Crush and background noise provided by
The Mockingbird Endlessly singing on the roof All day and
all night.
Host
Megan Devine
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