October 23, 2023 • 56 mins
Being fabulous can save your life.
The Old Gays are a social media sensation: flamboyant outfits, lip synched dance parties, and risque theatrics you might not expect of men in their 70s and 80s.
A lot of their media attention focuses on the joy they bring to all of us. But in their new book, The Old Gays’ Guide to the Good Life, they share a deeper story. This week on It’s OK, Bill, Bob, Mick, and Jessay talk about the missing generation of gay elders, and how being “discovered” late in life saved them.
In this episode we cover:
- Finding beauty inside immense suffering
- Why is it so hard to talk about devastating collective events - like AIDS and COVID - once the initial danger is over?
- The role of luck in surviving when so many did not
- Learning to love yourself first - at any age
- Chosen family and the power of being truly seen for who you are - in good times and bad
Looking for a creative exploration of grief? Check out the best selling Writing Your Grief course here.
Related episode:
What’s It All For? Loss and Meaning In Midlife with Chip Conley
Follow our show on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, and TikTok @refugeingrief and @itsokpod on TikTok. Visit refugeingrief.com for resources & courses
About our guests:
The Old Gays are best friends Mick Peterson, Bill Lyons, Robert Reeves, and Jessay Martin. Flamboyant social media celebrities - @oldgays - they’ve also become educators, teaching people about the strides that have been made over the last five decades in the LGBTQIA+ community. Get their new tell-all group memoir, The Old Gays Guide to the Good Life: Lessons Learned about Love and Death, Sex and Sin, and Saving the Best for Last Find them on IG at @theoldgays and on TikTok at @oldgays.
About Megan:
Psychotherapist Megan Devine is one of today’s leading experts on grief, from life-altering losses to the everyday grief that we don’t call grief. Get the best-selling book on grief in over a decade, It’s Ok that You’re Not OK, wherever you get books. Find Megan @refugeingrief
Additional resources:
The San Francisco AIDS Foundation and UCSF house a lot of queer history related to the AIDS epidemic.
Want to talk with Megan directly? Join our patreon community for live monthly Q&A grief clinics: your questions, answered. Want to speak to her privately? Apply for a 1:1 grief consultation here.
Check out Megan’s best-selling books - It’s OK Tha
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I was low.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
I literally I didn't have sex for like ten years,
and then Paul of a sudden, the Old Gaze came
up and they started making comments about how attractive I
was or you know what, nice clothes I wore, and
all of a sudden, things really really started changing for me.
(00:23):
And it has totally turned around. Now I'm on social
media sites, I'm out there having a great time and everything.
So the timing for me couldn't be any better being
an old Kaye just uplifted me.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm
your host, Megan Devine. This week on the show, The
Old Gaze, that glamorous, joyful band of old gay men
dancing and voguing their way across social media. What are
they doing here on this show? You will have to
find out coming up right after this first break. Before
(01:11):
we get started, one quick note. While we cover a
lot of emotional and relational territory in our time here together,
this show is not a substitute for skilled support from
a licensed mental health professional, nor should anything be taken
as medical advice. Hey friends, So if you are on
social media, especially Instagram and TikTok, you have seen the
(01:33):
old gaze, most likely four men in their seventies and
eighties lip syncing and dancing. They're flamboyant and fabulous and silly,
and they are so much fun to watch. Those guys
bring so much joy to the world just by existing,
and they're powerful role models not just to younger queer audiences,
but for other senior gays, showing that you get to
(01:54):
be a playful, adventurous, creative sexual being your entire life
if you so cheer. Now we get into the fun
and the joy of this period in their lives, in
our time here together on the episode. But what intrigues
me about these guys, aside from just how much fun
they are to watch, is that they're here at all.
(02:15):
Just say, Bob, Mick and Bill were young men in
the early days of the AIDS epidemic, before there was research,
before there was medication, before there was such a thing
as undetectable is untransmissible, there was an unknown illness tearing
through the gay community. As you'll hear the guys say,
the AIDS epidemic of the eighties and nineties wiped out
(02:36):
ninety percent of their social and professional circles. There's an
entire generation of elder gays just missing, and maybe you
don't see them there in their absence unless you look.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Sometimes this conversation might be a little bit tough to follow.
The guys were all clustered around one microphone, so there
are some minor tech issues. More than that, I'm asking
questions about things they don't often talk about. It's a
lot easier to talk about costumes and pageantry than it
is to talk about the losses they have all lived through.
But this is why we do this right, to make
(03:15):
these powerful, often emotional topics into things we can talk about,
things it's okay to talk about. I wanted to end
this season of the show with the old Gays because
I feel like they epitomize one of the core tenets
of this show that life is hard, again and again
and again, sometimes collectively and sometimes individually. But what saves
(03:37):
us again and again is connection. It's love. It's being
seen in our pain, in our losses, and in our joy.
The guys describe all of this so beautifully, and I
cannot wait for you to hear it. You don't need
to know the entire history of the AIDS epidemic, or
(03:58):
what HIV looks like today in order to understand this conversation,
but if you do want to know more, there are
some links in the show notes, and if you are
ever in San Francisco, check out the National AIDS Memorial
the Grove. I stumbled on it accidentally one day a
few years ago. It was a day off, but right
on brand I stumbled across the grove. It was incredibly
(04:20):
powerful and very moving. Also, Madonna has a stunning AIDS
memorial in her current tour, so check that out. That's
pretty amazing. Okay, lots of fascinating rabbit holes to get
into if you're curious about that time period. Anyway, let's
get to our conversation with Bob, Bellessey and Mick collectively
(04:44):
the old gays. All right, everybody, I am so thrilled
to have you here.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
We talked about this a little bit before we got rolling.
So much of your presence in the world these last
few years has been like joy and silliness and celebration.
But you've all had really difficult times in your lives.
I mean, you don't get to your like your seventies
and your eighties without hard times. But for gay men,
(05:13):
especially gay men of your generation. There's been a lot
of loss. This is something that has so many layers
to it. There's loss involved in everybody's life, and you don't,
as I said, you don't get to your seventies and
eighties without loss. But I want to spend some time
talking about the early days of the AIDS epidemic. If
(05:35):
that's okay with you. Sure, Sure, there is an entire
generation that is missing, and I feel like we don't
talk about that very much. Is that something that you
talk about together or you find yourself talking about with peers.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
The last time we discussed it that I remember was
comparing it to COVID, which it had a lot of
simularities going on. We have a lot of people who
go after us, I think because we are old and
(06:11):
because we're a missing link to.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
A lot of people.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean, I know, I mean I lived in San
Francisco during the eighties and I know I lost eighty
percent of my friends then. I mean, it was really
a hard time.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
The only way I look at it now in context
is in terms of my own long term medical care,
because I'm ajectly positive and so that influences, you know,
how I take care of my body, the type of
lifestyle I choose to live. It has impacted on all
of those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, it's something that you carry with you all the time,
even if you're not always discussing it. Is it a
hard conversation to have when you do find yourselves go
back there. There's a reason why we don't talk about
this stuff all the time. One, it's not up all
the time, but it's not exactly a comfortable conversation.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Whenever the topic comes up and is discussed do any detail.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
I find sadness swelling up within me and I had
to sometimes find cry.
Speaker 7 (07:28):
I lost my entire circle of friends.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
People I was very close to, someng I lived with
for periods of time, and just to see them getting
ill and dying one after another is beyond words.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah, I think it's hard for people to understand the
magnitude or the scale of those early days of the
a's epidemic. I mean, I was in art school during
the early nineties and I remember having a conversation with
a friend of mine who lived in Manhattan, and he said,
I can never go back there. Everybody's dead. And I
(08:15):
think that's hard for people who didn't live through it
to understand that entire neighborhoods disappeared. Yes, just say I
remember you saying that it brings up thinking about it
brings up really emotional moments for you. Can you tell
me about that your experience.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I feel like I was the last in that I
didn't know a lot of people who had died. I had.
I can count with three friends, and that was more
than enough for me to deal with how to live
with afterwards, because when you see your friends just wasting away,
(08:55):
then there's nothing that you can do about it. It's
except just be there. And I wasn't scared to be there.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
That's something that I love reading personal accounts of that
time is how much the community not everybody, of course,
but like how much the community cared for each other.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
Bill.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I know one of my favorite parts of your book
is where you talk about becoming a massage therapist in
the early days of the epidemic. Can you tell me
about that.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, it was amazing because the school that I went
to body electorate had a monsieur spiritualist on hand, and
literally our first two days in classes were we were
(09:46):
taught how to maneuver around a hospital bed. But because
we were going into hospitals and giving AIDS patients massages
and you know, we learned about, you know, how to
avoid lesions and that. But there was a sad part
(10:07):
of it. But the other part was just so rewarding.
After you gave someone a massage, you could just see
it in their face. They just loved being touched, and
that was the main thing, was just to touch them
and not feel awkward, you know, maneuvering running around.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
A hospital bed.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
It was sad, but at the same time, for me,
it was extremely rewarding to make someone that happy.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, there was such an untouchability in those days, right,
and the power of really seeing each other and being
able to care for the animal body of somebody who's suffering.
I love that description of just how powerful that was,
(11:00):
both for the receiver and for the giver. I think
we see that a lot in what the healthcare workers
and the social workers of that time have been saying.
There was a video I watched of yours, one of
the only ones that I saw were the four of
you were talking about survivor's guilt and HIV and the
ways that that has affected your life, and a lot
(11:21):
of the comments underneath it were from people who were
social workers or doctors or nurses during that time, and
so many of them kind of saying like, we can't
describe the intensity of that time. It's like we're too
shell shocked still to talk to about it together. But
also nobody wants to hear it. And there was so
much beauty inside all of that devastation, and I hear
(11:45):
that in what you're saying.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Many people in the community, even those who were not
necessarily close to someone, but they all felt the grief
of the moment and they channeled that greed into whatever
constructive ways they could find.
Speaker 7 (12:09):
And from that we.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Saw the emergence of AIDS walks and the large Quille
that was a project in San Francisco that has since
been spread on that mall in Washington several times because
it's so large and just people found ways to try
(12:39):
to help as a way of dealing with their grief.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
There's something so powerful about that too. And we talked
about the overlaps with COVID in so many different ways,
and one of them is the government isn't helping us,
so we need to take care of each other and
we need to put pressure on systems that aren't paying
attention and caring for us the way that we deserve.
(13:06):
I think in a lot of ways, what happened during
the early days of the AIDS epidemic and the way
that the queer community banded together like that's been the
blueprint for social justice and health movements going forward. Am
I making that up or do you think that's accurate
that that movement was a blueprint?
Speaker 7 (13:23):
I agree with you.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
I think in many ways we have led the way
for diseases like COVID and how to handle it, but
now rest cancer. There's so many movements towards different health
problems and issues that are taking place now that I
(13:50):
think are a result of the eighties and nineties.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
There is power in collective action, and power in really
seeing each other. And I've heard that through everything that
you all have been talking about in the books, in
the videos, and social in all the ways that I've
stopped you to prepare for our time together. But there
is just something about that repeated seeing each other and
seeing yourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And learning how to do that. Because we're taught to
take care of everybody else, but really caring does start
within you. How can I love somebody if I don't
love myself, it's truly impossible. And how can somebody love
me if they don't love themselves first? And I talk
(14:37):
about that with people that I did about the self love. God,
I love you first, and you have to put you first.
But we're not taught that. Now at seventy, I've got
it down me first, and then you know, in a
loving way, and I mean it in a good way.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Of course. That is something that threads through your whole book.
For each one of you is in times of intensity
and difficulty. Not that you did it perfectly and not
that it made everything easy, but each one of you
tell a story of learning to listen for what you
need in that moment and then being willing to follow
(15:17):
through on that. Yeah, So just say with your story.
The example that you give of that in the book
is when your partner was for sick, you left, I left, right,
you want to tell you want to tell that story.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I left anger, but I left because I had to
take care of just say. And then I came back
and took care of him until he passed away. And
it was it was a scary journey because you're not
taught how to do that, and when he passed away,
I didn't know what to do. I didn't know I
(15:52):
had put on this thing. You know, how are you? Oh,
I'm doing fine, But when somebody would leave, I would
crash and just fall and I would always need somebody
to be there to hold me. But they weren't because
I played the game of being the strong person. You know,
and I tell people now, who lose a partner or anybody,
(16:13):
you grieve however you need to grieve. There is no
set way. I didn't get my big black hat with
my gloves and my black suit person going it was.
It was shattered. It was shattered. I'm still angry, I'm
still hurt, and I don't like thinking about it or
talking about it. But it's good for me to do it.
(16:36):
It really is.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, there's something so powerful in grieving the way that
you need to when you've never been taught that it's
okay to do that.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
I think there was also an element of fear they caring,
because I know, for thinking for myself, many times I
had thoughts when I would visit someone who was sick,
(17:09):
that that could be me. What can I do to
help me in the future, And that happened to me
when I had an affair with a guy who told
me he.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Was negative and it turned out that he basically had
full blown AIDS. And the first thing I did was
and again I was in San Francisco, and I went
out across the street to what was an urgent care
(17:45):
kind of a thing, and I got tested for it.
But in the two weeks, two weeks it took me
to get the results back, I started to think about
how I was going to be living with HIV and
how it was going to change my life, trying to
(18:08):
sort of insulate me from if they said, Bill, you're positive,
that I could do that I could handle a little
better because I thought about, you know what it was.
Speaker 7 (18:22):
But I'll tell you what, when I opened.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Up that letter and read that I was I was negative, still,
I literally could have if I knew how I could
have done somersaults in the screen. I was never so
relieved in my entire life.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
It's interesting, Like, you know, we've talked a little bit
about like the human nature of pain avoidance, right like
I don't want to look at this, I don't want
to talk about this. I don't want to imagine that
this could be me. And then that shift that you
just described. Bill, were like, wait a minute, this could
be me. And if that turns out, if this outcome
(19:02):
that I do not want turns out to be true,
how will I live?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
And Bob, you just saying that same thing of looking
at friends or acquaintances in the hospital and seeing how
ill they were and knowing this could be me so easily, Right,
who do I want to be in the world, knowing
that the roles could be reversed at any moment. It's
such a powerful realization, and it's really hard for people
(19:29):
to do, to put ourselves in somebody else's shoes and
then make decisions on our actions accordingly.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
I think we all kind of at that age a
natural inclination that we had long lives to live, and
when suddenly confrun and with the possibility that you could
(19:57):
only have a short a few years at the most
to live and do whatever you want your life to be.
I know it caused me to really examine myself in.
Speaker 7 (20:18):
Very fundamental ways, where I lived, what.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
I was doing, how I was dating, everything I questioned
and kind of re engineered my life.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
This is one of the powerful stories in your book, Bob.
Is you talking about what happened when you got your
HIV diagnosis, right, do you want to tell the story
of what happened for you when you came up positive.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
I got the test through a nurse friend of.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
Mine who kind of played the.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Mental man because I knew in trusted him, and so
he kind of set everything up for me and did
the blood raw and then, as Bill said, there were
a couple weeks of really kind of nervous energy there.
(21:18):
And then when he read the results to me that
I was positive, I literally went into a state of
shop for several months, and I kind of isolated myself
(21:39):
from the world and I thought only about myself, What
can I do, what do I need to do? And
that's when I started trying to do some soulf help work,
(21:59):
because in San Francisco during the.
Speaker 7 (22:04):
Eighties, when I was there and learned I.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
Was positive, there were so many workshops that were being
set us in order to try to explore ways of
being helpful. And I did this workshop at San Francisco
(22:31):
State University on meditation visualization, and I think I learned
a lot from that.
Speaker 7 (22:42):
I think I.
Speaker 8 (22:44):
Learned from that's the power of the.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Mind over the body, and that there's a lot there
that we can think ourselves into being sick, or we
can think our cell into being well.
Speaker 7 (23:03):
And take the steps that.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Are needed in order to follow the path that leads
you to wellness, which for me meant changing the work
I was doing, changing where I was living, moving to
the desert community here, and immersing myself into a totally new,
(23:32):
different life.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
Which worked.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
What I love about that story is that you did
all of these things. You left your career, you moved
to the desert, you picked up art, you started looking
into meditation and workshops on the power of the mind.
But you did all of that believing that you were
going to die. Yeah, you didn't do all of that
(23:58):
stuff to be like I will get all of the
steps correct and I will be a survivor. No, you
were like, this is a very short life I have
ahead of me. How can I make it the most
true to me? I can?
Speaker 7 (24:12):
Yes, what and I do to give to the world.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Well, it became my attitude during that period of time,
and I was swayed by the numbers that were coming
back from closely monitoring.
Speaker 8 (24:34):
My state, and finally the numbers back to a point
where one day realized I think that's gonna list.
Speaker 9 (24:48):
And then I had to kind of rethink my life
again and add the element of Okay, how am I now.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Going to make money to support myself?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And so I had like, damn, I didn't save up
enough to actually keep living.
Speaker 7 (25:11):
A lot of money.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
When in the last year in San Francisco, in the
first couple of years here in.
Speaker 10 (25:20):
The desert, when I thought I was dying, I WoT
all the money I had, and so I had to
go to work again.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I mean, the number of times that we all have
to reinvent ourselves, right, just in the daily course of living,
and just over and over and over, it's really stunning.
It's really stunning. And this is one of the reasons
that I love these stories, right, because life is never
what it looks like in a ninety minute movie, right,
(25:52):
where like things are going along great and then some
tragedy happens, but they do all of the right steps
and there's this big transformation at the end. And when
we have these stories, we see that like worlds end
all the time and worlds begin all the time in
the same lifetimes. That's what I hear from you all. Hey,
(26:20):
Before we get back to our Conversation with the Old Gays.
I want to take a moment to tell you that
this is the last episode of season three. It's been
a powerful one. Starting next week, though, we will be
releasing some of our favorite episodes from all three seasons
of the show. Some you may have missed, some you
might want to listen to again and again and again
(26:40):
with a notebook just to absorb even more of their goodness.
Next week's show is the activist and author at Valerie Corps,
and with what is currently unfolding in the world, there
is no better starting place for our remixed season ahead.
If you're overwhelmed and not sure what to do, I
think you will find Valerie really, really helpful. Okay, thanks
(27:04):
for being here for this whole season. Right now, let's
get back to my conversation with the Old Gates. Now, Micky,
we're talking about diagnosis, stories and survival and the choices
that we have to make for our lives. Now, your
diagnosis came a little bit later. Do you want to
tell us that story of what that was like for
(27:25):
you and how you see if you see that as
being different than the stories in this family right now?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Well, I tested several positive a week after September eleventh,
two thousand and one, and I'd just flown back from
my mother's funeral, which was that week. I ended up
being stranded in the Yeapolis. Anyway, I came back.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And I noticed a rash on my arm.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
So I went in and we did some tests, and
my PCP at the time, he said, well, why don't
we just go ahead and do a routine STI and
an HIV test, And I said sure, and it.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Came back positive.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
And so the first thing I thought of was, well, fuck,
and you know bad enough. You know that my that says,
just come out of the hospital, my mother is dead,
We're at war with the al Qaida. And I turned
HIV positive. And so that's how the two thousands began
(28:31):
for me. And I guess because I had more contact
with medicine, I guess I realized, you know that this
was two thousand and one, nineteen ninety one, and even
so I had a terrible time on trying to find
the right kind of treatments. And so my doctor, just
(28:52):
because the other treatments weren't working, gave me AZT and
within three months, which is what happens, I dropped thirty pounds.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
My hemoglobin was cut.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
By a quarter, and I thought, well, this is it.
These medications are working, and so lo and behold another
medication had just come online, and this turned out to
be the God send to me for that time. My
accounts shifted back and so I had a very few
I had, in fact, no diseases or conditions that were
(29:27):
the result of it, except I developed the case of shingles,
but that was only when I was getting my divorce,
so I'd really count that out more distress.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I would say that, you know, again, the lucky.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Thing is that I was diagnosed in a much later date,
and at that time my doctor said to me that
he didn't think that the medications why there would be
no reason why I couldn't live another twenty five years.
So here I am, almost twenty five years later.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I'm still here.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
The treatments have changed, that gotten better, and I've had
less side effects. So I've been very lucky in that
case in terms of that disease. It's the other one
that I'm having difficulty with. It's more my automoview condition
that affects me every day now. But what this first happened,
(30:21):
you know, it was right at that time when the
cocktail has become where cases were dropping and people were
miraculously going back to work and trying to figure out
how they're going to maintain a lifestyle again. So it
was different for me. It was more of a chronological,
you know, chronic kind of management of a condition, which
(30:44):
means you have to rely on your doctor's on your
doctor's advice. As far as in the early days, yes,
I lost my first lover to HIV. I've lost many friends,
but I always believed, as they put it to me,
you know, you need to live your life. You need
to live your life to the fullest, and that you know,
(31:06):
you have to do it for them because they haven't had.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
The chance to go.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
You know, for me, they're still in their twenties and
thirties and they will always be that way. But memories
do fade, and I remember people by their names, but
unless I see their photographs, I couldn't recall them.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
There's an Instagram account called the AIDS Memorial I think
started by a man of your generation in Scotland, I believe,
and it's it's crowdsourced. It's photographs of people who died
during the early days and not even just the early days,
but it's by their survivors, their friends and their family
and the photographs and the stories of it.
Speaker 7 (31:48):
It's just so.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Beautiful. And I think about that when you said, you
know to me, they're still in their twenties and their thirties.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
I remember when Time magazine published it was the first
ten thousand victims of hip and of course everybody's going
through it, counting the number of photographs they recognized, and
you were living always under the sort of damocles until
the tests started coming out where they were starting to
(32:17):
be reliable, you could start to manage how you were
going to deal with it. And that's really been the
cheap trajectory in terms of this disease and why it's
receding in memory is that in many many ways it's
a success store. That's why I urged Congress and everybody
else to continue funding hiv AH prevention activities and treatments
(32:42):
in Africa.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
There's also something in there about that luck of the timing,
right when Bob, when you were first diagnosed, that was
a death sentence, right, Mick, when you were diagnosed not
that much later in terms of the grand scheme of things,
this was something manageable.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
And yeah, I mean, you know, I looked at it.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
You know, I guess my luck right now in terms
of not contracting, not not zero converting. You know, as
I say, I was in the wrong place at the wrong.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Time, and I made the wrong choice.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
If I had made the right choice in any three
of those areas, I may may not have been, you know,
in a position where I could have contracted the virus.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Who knows.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
You know, it really depends, like they say, on the
luck of the draw, and I think that that plays
a lot into it.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
I totally concurred with that, the luck of the draw,
because I met my partner who would be my partner
for sixteen years in nineteen eighty and in nineteen seventies,
San Francisco was New Year's Eve every single night. I mean,
I was just out there having a great, great time.
(34:00):
But thank god I met my partner when I did,
or otherwise I know I wouldn't be here.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Yeah. In fact, in many ways, I am so surprised
that I didn't contract the AIDS earlier, but I guess
that's how it is.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yeah, And just say, we talked a little bit earlier
about the nobody can see my air quotes here except
for us, but the luck of who you were at
the time, in your life, at the in the eighties,
in the early days of the epidemic. You want to
tell us about your version of luck, Well.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was out of the circle of it.
Speaker 7 (34:37):
I hadn't come out.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I was on the road in a particular gospel group.
I saw it, but I didn't live it. And I'm
glad that I didn't live it, that I didn't know
a lot of peace that passed away. I'm not bragging
on it. I'm just full of gratitude and the blessing
of it, the where it was.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
And Bob, you've talked before about the the luck that
everything you did happened to work out in your favor.
I think the last time we talked to you said
something about like, I have no idea why I didn't die,
why my numbers started to turn around. How do you
feel about the role of luck in your survival?
Speaker 5 (35:20):
Luck is definite lay a component, But I also believe
that self control and making the right moves do a fact.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
And a positive boy your health.
Speaker 11 (35:42):
And I think that my luck was I chose what
was right for me, and by choosing what was right
for me.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
It kind of rewarded me on my path with more lie.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
And I wonder about survivor's guilt for any of you.
So survivor's guilt is really common for anybody who has
lived through something that has taken the lives of others.
This happens in car accidents where somebody survives and others don't,
happen during the COVID pandemic, where lots of healthcare workers
saw their colleagues and lots of people die and they survived.
(36:25):
And certainly for elders in the queer community who saw
so many of their friends and family and communities die
and they did not die themselves. Is there survivor's guilt
in any way for any of you.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I used to.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
Think why am I still here? But then I realized
one of the reasons why I'm still here is to
show them that life is worth livating and you know,
we all went to them and that I have to
live our lives as full as possible and.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
To our potential.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
And if you think about it that way, I think
it gets it through the day.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I've always thought of survival skills that I'm just lucky
to be here. I'm the oldest of five children. My
youngest sister, at ten years old, was the first traffic
fatality in California. My brother at thirty years old, was
murdered in San Francisco. And I just keep thinking, why
(37:28):
am I still here? And my survival skills to me
is kind of like a mystery. I don't know why
out of all this that I'm still around.
Speaker 12 (37:41):
I don't think about it like that because if I
would get angry the universe, so I just don't ask
why anything.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I just accept it.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
I think that when we're stuck in that like maybe
not stuck is the wrong word, but asking why, like
some things don't have answers.
Speaker 7 (38:03):
Thank you, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Some things don't have answers.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I've s full of your attitude with it. You know,
everything that I go through, somehow I come out and
I surprised myself that I'm strong enough to get through
it because I don't consider myself a strong person that
fights for me. I've had to learn to do that,
and I've had to learn to be calm and to
(38:29):
be peaceful. That's what got me going. I used to
be so loud, that notious. I mean I am sometimes
now but I've learned, I've become my mother rest her soul,
who was very calm and quiet, and I am so happy.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I love that you are definitely calm and quiet, because
when you describe yourself as being I think you use
the word obnoxious. A second ago, I'm like, I can't
see that, but okay, if that is how you describe yourself,
we will take it.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
It was totally selfish.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
It was lean me.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I mean, I mean, I mean, and I realized I
am not the center the world. The only person is
centered in this world is me, but the rest of
the world is careless. And I truly believe that.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I love that you sort of tangentially brought up community
here and paying attention to others. I don't know who
said it, but one of you said that being the
old Gays saved you. One do you remember if you
said that, it's not a pop quiz. I don't remember.
And two, what do you think about that statement as
(39:38):
being the old gays persona that you are together, the
family that you are together, has that saved you.
Speaker 7 (39:46):
It's been kinda like the Booster.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
Rocket Booster, that you're your own trajectory.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
And I think I was and maybe all.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
I was for kind of low downward trajectory when this
opportunity came along. And I know for me it's definitely sparred,
re entered gensation and just new activity physical end brain
(40:25):
activity that I'm sure.
Speaker 7 (40:28):
It's gonna been make me live longer.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
When the okay started, I was at a downpoint in
my life in two thousand and eight, and during the
financial crisis, I lost my house in Palm Springs. Thanks
to Bob, he got me into senior housing where I
lived and I absolutely loved it, but I was low.
(40:53):
I literally I didn't have sex for like ten years.
And then Paul was so and the old days came
up and they started making comments about how attractive I
was or you know what nice clothes I wore, and
all of a sudden things really really started changing for me.
(41:15):
And it has totally turned around. Now I'm on social
media sides, I'm out there having a great time and everything.
So the timing for me couldn't be any better. Being
an old Kaye just uplifted me.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
You have each gone through such devastating things. I mean, Mick,
you've almost died several times. Bobby almost died. Just say
you almost died, Bill. You've lived through so many devastating things,
relationships and the death or something's like, so much pain.
And to hear so much joy in you and to
(41:53):
see so much joy in you, I mean, I think
that's your real your real gift to me and your
real gift to this world, to be able to see
that much joy and that much love and connection between you.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
The old expression goes, you know, the only way you're
going to experience.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
The mountaintop is if you've been in the lowest.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
Valley, and you know the differences are immense, you know,
and I don't ask why about it? I just experience
it now it's been I guess you know. I deserve it.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
I deserve it. You know that, Like they tell about
two two.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Really hot guys to get together and they think, oh,
isn't it wonderful they're getting married and somebody else have
and say, no, they deserve each other.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
And when you have so many people responding to we
just got back from lost for three days, and I
don't know how many times people recognized us and would
come up and want to shake our hands or talked.
Speaker 7 (43:08):
To us, or have their photo taken with us.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
And when you get that kind of feedback and live.
And you also read the tomments coming from fans on
the various videos and how important we have been to
them making strategic decisions about their lives. That is the
(43:39):
most rewarding feeling of all.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
We also just got through with the Virgin Voyage cruise
to the Western Mediterranean and we flew into Barcelona, and
at every airport and every port and every excursion we
went on, we were recognized. I mean, it was fun
(44:03):
to be recognized as the local trader Joe's and that
kind of thing. But all of a sudden, I realized
we're known around the world.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
When people come up to me, I thank them and
tell them, I mean, we wouldn't be where we are
without you, and so many people tend to forget about that,
and it is very important. And I am so happy
to be old and to just have changed my way
(44:34):
of thought that I get so much from giving to you,
and when you give it back, oh my god. I mean,
I'm just in have an exploding. I'm a hugger and
I hug everybody. I don't shake hands, I hug you
and it bad. Be good. There are we doing again?
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yes, I am with you. On that one. I mean,
we kind of come full circle here with what we
were talking about in the beginning. The power of seeing
each other, the power of telling the truth about the
situation you're in and making choices that are in line
with what you want for yourself and what you want
for others, and just that power of really seeing each other.
(45:14):
When we started talking, we were talking about the power
of seeing others, of loving them and touching them when
they are ill or suffering, And we come back around
an hour later to talking about the power of seeing
each other in our joy and how infectious that is, right, Like,
(45:35):
this is the same medicine to me. It's that power
of seeing each other and celebrating what we see.
Speaker 13 (45:42):
I think we're making the world better by what more
we're doing, and maybe a small way, but that's that
what happened.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
I love on.
Speaker 5 (45:56):
The Law.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
You know, things just pop in to your space. Sometimes
it will pop up for you know what they say
that's what I need too.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
Well.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I love those moments. So it's like, oh, I don't
know what it is, but I don't really like it.
They're crazy, they.
Speaker 7 (46:19):
They're old.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
You know, it's still going.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
I think this is a really wonderful place for us
to start heading towards the close of our time together,
because joy is so powerful and I love it's not
just who you are to the queer community in general.
It's not just who you are to the younger generations.
It's not just who you are to other elders who
(46:47):
maybe need to see that there is still joy and
connection available. It's all of it. Like the world is
so heavy, and to know that you all, personal and
collectively have lived strough through so many things and that
this life is possible. To me, that's a really a
(47:08):
powerfully hopeful message for the world.
Speaker 7 (47:12):
And humor is a big factor in that.
Speaker 5 (47:15):
When you are happy inside and when you're smiling, you're
releasing endorphins or whatever throughout your body that are life
affirming and it's so much better than being glum and
(47:41):
negative about stuff.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
And don't forget, laughter is the best medicine of.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
All, right, alongside goofiness, which is my preferred medicine. I
love this all right. Do you have any last messages
for anyone in particular or in general that you want
to share before I bring us to a close here, My.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Friends, life has its ups and downs, but there's no
other ride like it.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Thank you, Bill. All right, let's talk about that book.
This book is coming out. It will be out just
a couple weeks after this episode air, So if you're
listening to this now, go pre order their book.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
One of the beauties of the book to me, which
I didn't even think about when we went into it,
is we just got through recording the entire book and
in our own voices, so people can either get the
hard copy version or they can get the audible one
(48:49):
and hear audible book and listen to each one of us.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Yeah, and having read the book, everybody I vote for well,
I vote for every available copy, so you can, you know,
buy lots of books, but being able to hear each
one of your stories in your own voice, that's going
to make that book come alive for so many people.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yes, I actually stop a couple of times because you
say this step, but then you're reading it back and second, whoa, whoa, Well,
and it really got me. So I think it's going
to get you to the audible part of it's fun.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Yeah, as somebody who recorded my own book as well,
it's like it's one thing to write these stories on
the page and then you have to hear yourself say them,
and there's something very different about that to say, I'm
glad you brought that up.
Speaker 5 (49:42):
It's funny, it's raw voices, kind of saucy.
Speaker 7 (49:49):
If you will. Wait, all really kind.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Of let go of our inhibitions when we had our
interviews with Dispair, the author who collected all of the
stories and netted them together.
Speaker 7 (50:12):
So people will find many.
Speaker 5 (50:15):
Different emotions in it, but those who can't read them
will be pictures.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
There is something for everyone with the old Gays, all right,
So we're going to link to your social media accounts
and your YouTube channel and to the book. Of course.
I am so glad you're all in the world as
you are together and as you are individually. I'm so
glad all of you survived and are bringing so much
joy to yourselves.
Speaker 7 (50:45):
And we are family.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
Can you tell me what that means for you.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
We have ups and we have our doubt, but in
the end.
Speaker 14 (50:56):
We're all together, we work out our For instance, people
think we're these perfect four, but we just went through
a rough time.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
But we sat down and talked about it respectfully to
each other, and I came out just wanting to spread
my rings around every one of all these guys, because
sometimes it's hard to speak your truth. But we did it.
We survived it, and I just feel yummy. I'm always yealing.
(51:32):
I I do, I do because we got past this
and they don't even know how it affected me. But
it's just I just went home and I was just
like so loving and protective feeling of these guys. It's
a family thing, and you do yourself, but people just
forget to talk for me.
Speaker 7 (51:55):
This family is really the.
Speaker 5 (51:57):
Only family I had because there's not much left my
birth family.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
So you know, we do take care of each other,
and I think this last Las Vegas to reinforce that,
but we've been doing that throughout our times together, that
we look out for each other, you know, especially when
we travel, we make sure everybody's okay because you know,
we're for all men traveling.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Yeah, I mean, you're you're learning so much in this,
like not only as a family and not only as friends,
but like friends in the spotlight with a very specific
shared experience, right, and like how are we going to
do this together? And that willingness to learn new skills,
to acknowledge and understand here are the things that are
(52:48):
going to take me out of relationship, and here are
the things that are going to bring me back in
and being willing to do that work with yourselves and
with each other like I always love to see anybody
do that at any age. It is not all right,
my friends, I have kept you long enough. Thank you,
all of you. We will add links to your social
(53:09):
media in the show notes, and everybody be sure to
go order their new book, The Old Gay's Guide to
the Good Life for even more insider details about their lives.
We will be back with your questions to carry with
you right after this break. Each week I leave you
(53:33):
with some questions to carry with you until we meet again. Now,
a lot of things in this conversation stood out for me,
not just I guess, not just in the conversation itself,
but in the things that I was thinking about, the
stuff that came up for me as I was preparing
for a conversation. Each of these four men has been
through so much, from their early years as gay kids
(53:55):
in an even more openly homophobic culture, to the joy
and freedom of the seventies, the intensity of the eighties
and nineties, the financial havoc of the early two thousands,
and the support and the connection that they found in
each other. They've just they've all been through so much.
We started this conversation talking about the power of being
(54:17):
seen inside suffering and death.
Speaker 4 (54:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Remember Bill saying talking about the beauty of touching and
caring for somebody in their suffering. What that meant to
him to be able to really see and tend to
people as they were dying. And we closed our conversation
talking about the power of being seen in life, the
(54:40):
energy and the vitality that being seen by other people
can give you, being seen and celebrated in your joy
and in your survival, in the full fabulousness that is you.
There's just such power in being seen wherever we are,
for all of us. How about you, what did you
(55:02):
take from this conversation? Everybody's going to find something different,
but I do hope you found something to hold on to,
and I hope you have people in your life who
see you for the full gloriousness that you are. This
is the last show for season three. We will be
back next week with the first of our series of
(55:24):
re releases, so be sure to stick around for that
and let me know how today's episode felt for you,
or tell me something about the season as a whole.
Tell me whatever you'd like. You can leave a comment
on social media. We are on most platforms at refuging Grief,
or you can do any of those things in review
on your favorite podcast platform. Use the hashtag It's Okay
(55:45):
pod to share your reflections on the show and get
these conversations going in your own communities. Everyone is at
least a little bit not okay, and it's time we
start talking about that together. It's okay that you're not
a You're in good company. Enjoy the re release season friends.
(56:06):
I'm not entirely sure when season four will be out,
but we will keep you posted. It's okay that You're
not okay. The podcast is written and produced by me
Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by
Elizabeth Fouzio, social media support from Micah, editing by Houston Tilley,
and music provided by Wavecrutch. Today's background noise is the
(56:30):
very quietly snoring dog on the floor next to me.
I was low.
Speaker 2 (00:00):
I literally I didn't have sex for like ten years,
and then Paul of a sudden, the Old Gaze came
up and they started making comments about how attractive I
was or you know what, nice clothes I wore, and
all of a sudden, things really really started changing for me.
(00:23):
And it has totally turned around. Now I'm on social
media sites, I'm out there having a great time and everything.
So the timing for me couldn't be any better being
an old Kaye just uplifted me.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
This is it's okay that you're not okay, and I'm
your host, Megan Devine. This week on the show, The
Old Gaze, that glamorous, joyful band of old gay men
dancing and voguing their way across social media. What are
they doing here on this show? You will have to
find out coming up right after this first break. Before
(01:11):
we get started, one quick note. While we cover a
lot of emotional and relational territory in our time here together,
this show is not a substitute for skilled support from
a licensed mental health professional, nor should anything be taken
as medical advice. Hey friends, So if you are on
social media, especially Instagram and TikTok, you have seen the
(01:33):
old gaze, most likely four men in their seventies and
eighties lip syncing and dancing. They're flamboyant and fabulous and silly,
and they are so much fun to watch. Those guys
bring so much joy to the world just by existing,
and they're powerful role models not just to younger queer audiences,
but for other senior gays, showing that you get to
(01:54):
be a playful, adventurous, creative sexual being your entire life
if you so cheer. Now we get into the fun
and the joy of this period in their lives, in
our time here together on the episode. But what intrigues
me about these guys, aside from just how much fun
they are to watch, is that they're here at all.
(02:15):
Just say, Bob, Mick and Bill were young men in
the early days of the AIDS epidemic, before there was research,
before there was medication, before there was such a thing
as undetectable is untransmissible, there was an unknown illness tearing
through the gay community. As you'll hear the guys say,
the AIDS epidemic of the eighties and nineties wiped out
(02:36):
ninety percent of their social and professional circles. There's an
entire generation of elder gays just missing, and maybe you
don't see them there in their absence unless you look.
Speaker 2 (02:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (02:52):
Sometimes this conversation might be a little bit tough to follow.
The guys were all clustered around one microphone, so there
are some minor tech issues. More than that, I'm asking
questions about things they don't often talk about. It's a
lot easier to talk about costumes and pageantry than it
is to talk about the losses they have all lived through.
But this is why we do this right, to make
(03:15):
these powerful, often emotional topics into things we can talk about,
things it's okay to talk about. I wanted to end
this season of the show with the old Gays because
I feel like they epitomize one of the core tenets
of this show that life is hard, again and again
and again, sometimes collectively and sometimes individually. But what saves
(03:37):
us again and again is connection. It's love. It's being
seen in our pain, in our losses, and in our joy.
The guys describe all of this so beautifully, and I
cannot wait for you to hear it. You don't need
to know the entire history of the AIDS epidemic, or
(03:58):
what HIV looks like today in order to understand this conversation,
but if you do want to know more, there are
some links in the show notes, and if you are
ever in San Francisco, check out the National AIDS Memorial
the Grove. I stumbled on it accidentally one day a
few years ago. It was a day off, but right
on brand I stumbled across the grove. It was incredibly
(04:20):
powerful and very moving. Also, Madonna has a stunning AIDS
memorial in her current tour, so check that out. That's
pretty amazing. Okay, lots of fascinating rabbit holes to get
into if you're curious about that time period. Anyway, let's
get to our conversation with Bob, Bellessey and Mick collectively
(04:44):
the old gays. All right, everybody, I am so thrilled
to have you here.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Now.
Speaker 3 (04:52):
We talked about this a little bit before we got rolling.
So much of your presence in the world these last
few years has been like joy and silliness and celebration.
But you've all had really difficult times in your lives.
I mean, you don't get to your like your seventies
and your eighties without hard times. But for gay men,
(05:13):
especially gay men of your generation. There's been a lot
of loss. This is something that has so many layers
to it. There's loss involved in everybody's life, and you don't,
as I said, you don't get to your seventies and
eighties without loss. But I want to spend some time
talking about the early days of the AIDS epidemic. If
(05:35):
that's okay with you. Sure, Sure, there is an entire
generation that is missing, and I feel like we don't
talk about that very much. Is that something that you
talk about together or you find yourself talking about with peers.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
The last time we discussed it that I remember was
comparing it to COVID, which it had a lot of
simularities going on. We have a lot of people who
go after us, I think because we are old and
(06:11):
because we're a missing link to.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
A lot of people.
Speaker 2 (06:15):
I mean, I know, I mean I lived in San
Francisco during the eighties and I know I lost eighty
percent of my friends then. I mean, it was really
a hard time.
Speaker 4 (06:27):
The only way I look at it now in context
is in terms of my own long term medical care,
because I'm ajectly positive and so that influences, you know,
how I take care of my body, the type of
lifestyle I choose to live. It has impacted on all
of those kinds of things.
Speaker 3 (06:48):
Yeah, it's something that you carry with you all the time,
even if you're not always discussing it. Is it a
hard conversation to have when you do find yourselves go
back there. There's a reason why we don't talk about
this stuff all the time. One, it's not up all
the time, but it's not exactly a comfortable conversation.
Speaker 5 (07:08):
Whenever the topic comes up and is discussed do any detail.
Speaker 6 (07:17):
I find sadness swelling up within me and I had
to sometimes find cry.
Speaker 7 (07:28):
I lost my entire circle of friends.
Speaker 5 (07:33):
People I was very close to, someng I lived with
for periods of time, and just to see them getting
ill and dying one after another is beyond words.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
Yeah, I think it's hard for people to understand the
magnitude or the scale of those early days of the
a's epidemic. I mean, I was in art school during
the early nineties and I remember having a conversation with
a friend of mine who lived in Manhattan, and he said,
I can never go back there. Everybody's dead. And I
(08:15):
think that's hard for people who didn't live through it
to understand that entire neighborhoods disappeared. Yes, just say I
remember you saying that it brings up thinking about it
brings up really emotional moments for you. Can you tell
me about that your experience.
Speaker 1 (08:34):
I feel like I was the last in that I
didn't know a lot of people who had died. I had.
I can count with three friends, and that was more
than enough for me to deal with how to live
with afterwards, because when you see your friends just wasting away,
(08:55):
then there's nothing that you can do about it. It's
except just be there. And I wasn't scared to be there.
Speaker 3 (09:03):
That's something that I love reading personal accounts of that
time is how much the community not everybody, of course,
but like how much the community cared for each other.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
Bill.
Speaker 3 (09:16):
I know one of my favorite parts of your book
is where you talk about becoming a massage therapist in
the early days of the epidemic. Can you tell me
about that.
Speaker 2 (09:26):
Yeah, it was amazing because the school that I went
to body electorate had a monsieur spiritualist on hand, and
literally our first two days in classes were we were
(09:46):
taught how to maneuver around a hospital bed. But because
we were going into hospitals and giving AIDS patients massages
and you know, we learned about, you know, how to
avoid lesions and that. But there was a sad part
(10:07):
of it. But the other part was just so rewarding.
After you gave someone a massage, you could just see
it in their face. They just loved being touched, and
that was the main thing, was just to touch them
and not feel awkward, you know, maneuvering running around.
Speaker 1 (10:30):
A hospital bed.
Speaker 2 (10:32):
It was sad, but at the same time, for me,
it was extremely rewarding to make someone that happy.
Speaker 3 (10:40):
Yeah, there was such an untouchability in those days, right,
and the power of really seeing each other and being
able to care for the animal body of somebody who's suffering.
I love that description of just how powerful that was,
(11:00):
both for the receiver and for the giver. I think
we see that a lot in what the healthcare workers
and the social workers of that time have been saying.
There was a video I watched of yours, one of
the only ones that I saw were the four of
you were talking about survivor's guilt and HIV and the
ways that that has affected your life, and a lot
(11:21):
of the comments underneath it were from people who were
social workers or doctors or nurses during that time, and
so many of them kind of saying like, we can't
describe the intensity of that time. It's like we're too
shell shocked still to talk to about it together. But
also nobody wants to hear it. And there was so
much beauty inside all of that devastation, and I hear
(11:45):
that in what you're saying.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
Many people in the community, even those who were not
necessarily close to someone, but they all felt the grief
of the moment and they channeled that greed into whatever
constructive ways they could find.
Speaker 7 (12:09):
And from that we.
Speaker 5 (12:12):
Saw the emergence of AIDS walks and the large Quille
that was a project in San Francisco that has since
been spread on that mall in Washington several times because
it's so large and just people found ways to try
(12:39):
to help as a way of dealing with their grief.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
There's something so powerful about that too. And we talked
about the overlaps with COVID in so many different ways,
and one of them is the government isn't helping us,
so we need to take care of each other and
we need to put pressure on systems that aren't paying
attention and caring for us the way that we deserve.
(13:06):
I think in a lot of ways, what happened during
the early days of the AIDS epidemic and the way
that the queer community banded together like that's been the
blueprint for social justice and health movements going forward. Am
I making that up or do you think that's accurate
that that movement was a blueprint?
Speaker 7 (13:23):
I agree with you.
Speaker 5 (13:25):
I think in many ways we have led the way
for diseases like COVID and how to handle it, but
now rest cancer. There's so many movements towards different health
problems and issues that are taking place now that I
(13:50):
think are a result of the eighties and nineties.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
There is power in collective action, and power in really
seeing each other. And I've heard that through everything that
you all have been talking about in the books, in
the videos, and social in all the ways that I've
stopped you to prepare for our time together. But there
is just something about that repeated seeing each other and
seeing yourselves.
Speaker 1 (14:17):
And learning how to do that. Because we're taught to
take care of everybody else, but really caring does start
within you. How can I love somebody if I don't
love myself, it's truly impossible. And how can somebody love
me if they don't love themselves first? And I talk
(14:37):
about that with people that I did about the self love. God,
I love you first, and you have to put you first.
But we're not taught that. Now at seventy, I've got
it down me first, and then you know, in a
loving way, and I mean it in a good way.
Speaker 3 (14:54):
Of course. That is something that threads through your whole book.
For each one of you is in times of intensity
and difficulty. Not that you did it perfectly and not
that it made everything easy, but each one of you
tell a story of learning to listen for what you
need in that moment and then being willing to follow
(15:17):
through on that. Yeah, So just say with your story.
The example that you give of that in the book
is when your partner was for sick, you left, I left, right,
you want to tell you want to tell that story.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I left anger, but I left because I had to
take care of just say. And then I came back
and took care of him until he passed away. And
it was it was a scary journey because you're not
taught how to do that, and when he passed away,
I didn't know what to do. I didn't know I
(15:52):
had put on this thing. You know, how are you? Oh,
I'm doing fine, But when somebody would leave, I would
crash and just fall and I would always need somebody
to be there to hold me. But they weren't because
I played the game of being the strong person. You know,
and I tell people now, who lose a partner or anybody,
(16:13):
you grieve however you need to grieve. There is no
set way. I didn't get my big black hat with
my gloves and my black suit person going it was.
It was shattered. It was shattered. I'm still angry, I'm
still hurt, and I don't like thinking about it or
talking about it. But it's good for me to do it.
(16:36):
It really is.
Speaker 3 (16:37):
Yeah, there's something so powerful in grieving the way that
you need to when you've never been taught that it's
okay to do that.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
I think there was also an element of fear they caring,
because I know, for thinking for myself, many times I
had thoughts when I would visit someone who was sick,
(17:09):
that that could be me. What can I do to
help me in the future, And that happened to me
when I had an affair with a guy who told
me he.
Speaker 2 (17:25):
Was negative and it turned out that he basically had
full blown AIDS. And the first thing I did was
and again I was in San Francisco, and I went
out across the street to what was an urgent care
(17:45):
kind of a thing, and I got tested for it.
But in the two weeks, two weeks it took me
to get the results back, I started to think about
how I was going to be living with HIV and
how it was going to change my life, trying to
(18:08):
sort of insulate me from if they said, Bill, you're positive,
that I could do that I could handle a little
better because I thought about, you know what it was.
Speaker 7 (18:22):
But I'll tell you what, when I opened.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Up that letter and read that I was I was negative, still,
I literally could have if I knew how I could
have done somersaults in the screen. I was never so
relieved in my entire life.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
It's interesting, Like, you know, we've talked a little bit
about like the human nature of pain avoidance, right like
I don't want to look at this, I don't want
to talk about this. I don't want to imagine that
this could be me. And then that shift that you
just described. Bill, were like, wait a minute, this could
be me. And if that turns out, if this outcome
(19:02):
that I do not want turns out to be true,
how will I live?
Speaker 2 (19:07):
Right?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
And Bob, you just saying that same thing of looking
at friends or acquaintances in the hospital and seeing how
ill they were and knowing this could be me so easily, Right,
who do I want to be in the world, knowing
that the roles could be reversed at any moment. It's
such a powerful realization, and it's really hard for people
(19:29):
to do, to put ourselves in somebody else's shoes and
then make decisions on our actions accordingly.
Speaker 5 (19:37):
I think we all kind of at that age a
natural inclination that we had long lives to live, and
when suddenly confrun and with the possibility that you could
(19:57):
only have a short a few years at the most
to live and do whatever you want your life to be.
I know it caused me to really examine myself in.
Speaker 7 (20:18):
Very fundamental ways, where I lived, what.
Speaker 5 (20:21):
I was doing, how I was dating, everything I questioned
and kind of re engineered my life.
Speaker 3 (20:32):
This is one of the powerful stories in your book, Bob.
Is you talking about what happened when you got your
HIV diagnosis, right, do you want to tell the story
of what happened for you when you came up positive.
Speaker 5 (20:47):
I got the test through a nurse friend of.
Speaker 7 (20:52):
Mine who kind of played the.
Speaker 5 (20:55):
Mental man because I knew in trusted him, and so
he kind of set everything up for me and did
the blood raw and then, as Bill said, there were
a couple weeks of really kind of nervous energy there.
(21:18):
And then when he read the results to me that
I was positive, I literally went into a state of
shop for several months, and I kind of isolated myself
(21:39):
from the world and I thought only about myself, What
can I do, what do I need to do? And
that's when I started trying to do some soulf help work,
(21:59):
because in San Francisco during the.
Speaker 7 (22:04):
Eighties, when I was there and learned I.
Speaker 5 (22:09):
Was positive, there were so many workshops that were being
set us in order to try to explore ways of
being helpful. And I did this workshop at San Francisco
(22:31):
State University on meditation visualization, and I think I learned
a lot from that.
Speaker 7 (22:42):
I think I.
Speaker 8 (22:44):
Learned from that's the power of the.
Speaker 5 (22:48):
Mind over the body, and that there's a lot there
that we can think ourselves into being sick, or we
can think our cell into being well.
Speaker 7 (23:03):
And take the steps that.
Speaker 5 (23:06):
Are needed in order to follow the path that leads
you to wellness, which for me meant changing the work
I was doing, changing where I was living, moving to
the desert community here, and immersing myself into a totally new,
(23:32):
different life.
Speaker 7 (23:34):
Which worked.
Speaker 3 (23:36):
What I love about that story is that you did
all of these things. You left your career, you moved
to the desert, you picked up art, you started looking
into meditation and workshops on the power of the mind.
But you did all of that believing that you were
going to die. Yeah, you didn't do all of that
(23:58):
stuff to be like I will get all of the
steps correct and I will be a survivor. No, you
were like, this is a very short life I have
ahead of me. How can I make it the most
true to me? I can?
Speaker 7 (24:12):
Yes, what and I do to give to the world.
Speaker 5 (24:18):
Well, it became my attitude during that period of time,
and I was swayed by the numbers that were coming
back from closely monitoring.
Speaker 8 (24:34):
My state, and finally the numbers back to a point
where one day realized I think that's gonna list.
Speaker 9 (24:48):
And then I had to kind of rethink my life
again and add the element of Okay, how am I now.
Speaker 5 (24:59):
Going to make money to support myself?
Speaker 3 (25:04):
And so I had like, damn, I didn't save up
enough to actually keep living.
Speaker 7 (25:11):
A lot of money.
Speaker 5 (25:12):
When in the last year in San Francisco, in the
first couple of years here in.
Speaker 10 (25:20):
The desert, when I thought I was dying, I WoT
all the money I had, and so I had to
go to work again.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
I mean, the number of times that we all have
to reinvent ourselves, right, just in the daily course of living,
and just over and over and over, it's really stunning.
It's really stunning. And this is one of the reasons
that I love these stories, right, because life is never
what it looks like in a ninety minute movie, right,
(25:52):
where like things are going along great and then some
tragedy happens, but they do all of the right steps
and there's this big transformation at the end. And when
we have these stories, we see that like worlds end
all the time and worlds begin all the time in
the same lifetimes. That's what I hear from you all. Hey,
(26:20):
Before we get back to our Conversation with the Old Gays.
I want to take a moment to tell you that
this is the last episode of season three. It's been
a powerful one. Starting next week, though, we will be
releasing some of our favorite episodes from all three seasons
of the show. Some you may have missed, some you
might want to listen to again and again and again
(26:40):
with a notebook just to absorb even more of their goodness.
Next week's show is the activist and author at Valerie Corps,
and with what is currently unfolding in the world, there
is no better starting place for our remixed season ahead.
If you're overwhelmed and not sure what to do, I
think you will find Valerie really, really helpful. Okay, thanks
(27:04):
for being here for this whole season. Right now, let's
get back to my conversation with the Old Gates. Now, Micky,
we're talking about diagnosis, stories and survival and the choices
that we have to make for our lives. Now, your
diagnosis came a little bit later. Do you want to
tell us that story of what that was like for
(27:25):
you and how you see if you see that as
being different than the stories in this family right now?
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Well, I tested several positive a week after September eleventh,
two thousand and one, and I'd just flown back from
my mother's funeral, which was that week. I ended up
being stranded in the Yeapolis. Anyway, I came back.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
And I noticed a rash on my arm.
Speaker 4 (27:53):
So I went in and we did some tests, and
my PCP at the time, he said, well, why don't
we just go ahead and do a routine STI and
an HIV test, And I said sure, and it.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Came back positive.
Speaker 4 (28:09):
And so the first thing I thought of was, well, fuck,
and you know bad enough. You know that my that says,
just come out of the hospital, my mother is dead,
We're at war with the al Qaida. And I turned
HIV positive. And so that's how the two thousands began
(28:31):
for me. And I guess because I had more contact
with medicine, I guess I realized, you know that this
was two thousand and one, nineteen ninety one, and even
so I had a terrible time on trying to find
the right kind of treatments. And so my doctor, just
(28:52):
because the other treatments weren't working, gave me AZT and
within three months, which is what happens, I dropped thirty pounds.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
My hemoglobin was cut.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
By a quarter, and I thought, well, this is it.
These medications are working, and so lo and behold another
medication had just come online, and this turned out to
be the God send to me for that time. My
accounts shifted back and so I had a very few
I had, in fact, no diseases or conditions that were
(29:27):
the result of it, except I developed the case of shingles,
but that was only when I was getting my divorce,
so I'd really count that out more distress.
Speaker 1 (29:39):
I would say that, you know, again, the lucky.
Speaker 4 (29:40):
Thing is that I was diagnosed in a much later date,
and at that time my doctor said to me that
he didn't think that the medications why there would be
no reason why I couldn't live another twenty five years.
So here I am, almost twenty five years later.
Speaker 1 (29:59):
I'm still here.
Speaker 4 (30:00):
The treatments have changed, that gotten better, and I've had
less side effects. So I've been very lucky in that
case in terms of that disease. It's the other one
that I'm having difficulty with. It's more my automoview condition
that affects me every day now. But what this first happened,
(30:21):
you know, it was right at that time when the
cocktail has become where cases were dropping and people were
miraculously going back to work and trying to figure out
how they're going to maintain a lifestyle again. So it
was different for me. It was more of a chronological,
you know, chronic kind of management of a condition, which
(30:44):
means you have to rely on your doctor's on your
doctor's advice. As far as in the early days, yes,
I lost my first lover to HIV. I've lost many friends,
but I always believed, as they put it to me,
you know, you need to live your life. You need
to live your life to the fullest, and that you know,
(31:06):
you have to do it for them because they haven't had.
Speaker 1 (31:09):
The chance to go.
Speaker 4 (31:10):
You know, for me, they're still in their twenties and
thirties and they will always be that way. But memories
do fade, and I remember people by their names, but
unless I see their photographs, I couldn't recall them.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
There's an Instagram account called the AIDS Memorial I think
started by a man of your generation in Scotland, I believe,
and it's it's crowdsourced. It's photographs of people who died
during the early days and not even just the early days,
but it's by their survivors, their friends and their family
and the photographs and the stories of it.
Speaker 7 (31:48):
It's just so.
Speaker 3 (31:50):
Beautiful. And I think about that when you said, you
know to me, they're still in their twenties and their thirties.
Speaker 4 (31:56):
I remember when Time magazine published it was the first
ten thousand victims of hip and of course everybody's going
through it, counting the number of photographs they recognized, and
you were living always under the sort of damocles until
the tests started coming out where they were starting to
(32:17):
be reliable, you could start to manage how you were
going to deal with it. And that's really been the
cheap trajectory in terms of this disease and why it's
receding in memory is that in many many ways it's
a success store. That's why I urged Congress and everybody
else to continue funding hiv AH prevention activities and treatments
(32:42):
in Africa.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
There's also something in there about that luck of the timing,
right when Bob, when you were first diagnosed, that was
a death sentence, right, Mick, when you were diagnosed not
that much later in terms of the grand scheme of things,
this was something manageable.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
And yeah, I mean, you know, I looked at it.
Speaker 4 (33:03):
You know, I guess my luck right now in terms
of not contracting, not not zero converting. You know, as
I say, I was in the wrong place at the wrong.
Speaker 1 (33:14):
Time, and I made the wrong choice.
Speaker 4 (33:16):
If I had made the right choice in any three
of those areas, I may may not have been, you know,
in a position where I could have contracted the virus.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
Who knows.
Speaker 4 (33:28):
You know, it really depends, like they say, on the
luck of the draw, and I think that that plays
a lot into it.
Speaker 2 (33:37):
I totally concurred with that, the luck of the draw,
because I met my partner who would be my partner
for sixteen years in nineteen eighty and in nineteen seventies,
San Francisco was New Year's Eve every single night. I mean,
I was just out there having a great, great time.
(34:00):
But thank god I met my partner when I did,
or otherwise I know I wouldn't be here.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
Yeah. In fact, in many ways, I am so surprised
that I didn't contract the AIDS earlier, but I guess
that's how it is.
Speaker 3 (34:18):
Yeah, And just say, we talked a little bit earlier
about the nobody can see my air quotes here except
for us, but the luck of who you were at
the time, in your life, at the in the eighties,
in the early days of the epidemic. You want to
tell us about your version of luck, Well.
Speaker 1 (34:35):
I was out of the circle of it.
Speaker 7 (34:37):
I hadn't come out.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
I was on the road in a particular gospel group.
I saw it, but I didn't live it. And I'm
glad that I didn't live it, that I didn't know
a lot of peace that passed away. I'm not bragging
on it. I'm just full of gratitude and the blessing
of it, the where it was.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
And Bob, you've talked before about the the luck that
everything you did happened to work out in your favor.
I think the last time we talked to you said
something about like, I have no idea why I didn't die,
why my numbers started to turn around. How do you
feel about the role of luck in your survival?
Speaker 5 (35:20):
Luck is definite lay a component, But I also believe
that self control and making the right moves do a fact.
Speaker 7 (35:37):
And a positive boy your health.
Speaker 11 (35:42):
And I think that my luck was I chose what
was right for me, and by choosing what was right
for me.
Speaker 5 (35:56):
It kind of rewarded me on my path with more lie.
Speaker 3 (36:04):
And I wonder about survivor's guilt for any of you.
So survivor's guilt is really common for anybody who has
lived through something that has taken the lives of others.
This happens in car accidents where somebody survives and others don't,
happen during the COVID pandemic, where lots of healthcare workers
saw their colleagues and lots of people die and they survived.
(36:25):
And certainly for elders in the queer community who saw
so many of their friends and family and communities die
and they did not die themselves. Is there survivor's guilt
in any way for any of you.
Speaker 1 (36:38):
I used to.
Speaker 4 (36:39):
Think why am I still here? But then I realized
one of the reasons why I'm still here is to
show them that life is worth livating and you know,
we all went to them and that I have to
live our lives as full as possible and.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
To our potential.
Speaker 4 (36:57):
And if you think about it that way, I think
it gets it through the day.
Speaker 2 (37:03):
I've always thought of survival skills that I'm just lucky
to be here. I'm the oldest of five children. My
youngest sister, at ten years old, was the first traffic
fatality in California. My brother at thirty years old, was
murdered in San Francisco. And I just keep thinking, why
(37:28):
am I still here? And my survival skills to me
is kind of like a mystery. I don't know why
out of all this that I'm still around.
Speaker 12 (37:41):
I don't think about it like that because if I
would get angry the universe, so I just don't ask
why anything.
Speaker 1 (37:52):
I just accept it.
Speaker 4 (37:55):
I love that.
Speaker 3 (37:55):
I think that when we're stuck in that like maybe
not stuck is the wrong word, but asking why, like
some things don't have answers.
Speaker 7 (38:03):
Thank you, yes, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Some things don't have answers.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I've s full of your attitude with it. You know,
everything that I go through, somehow I come out and
I surprised myself that I'm strong enough to get through
it because I don't consider myself a strong person that
fights for me. I've had to learn to do that,
and I've had to learn to be calm and to
(38:29):
be peaceful. That's what got me going. I used to
be so loud, that notious. I mean I am sometimes
now but I've learned, I've become my mother rest her soul,
who was very calm and quiet, and I am so happy.
Speaker 3 (38:50):
I love that you are definitely calm and quiet, because
when you describe yourself as being I think you use
the word obnoxious. A second ago, I'm like, I can't
see that, but okay, if that is how you describe yourself,
we will take it.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
It was totally selfish.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
It was lean me.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
I mean, I mean, I mean, and I realized I
am not the center the world. The only person is
centered in this world is me, but the rest of
the world is careless. And I truly believe that.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
I love that you sort of tangentially brought up community
here and paying attention to others. I don't know who
said it, but one of you said that being the
old Gays saved you. One do you remember if you
said that, it's not a pop quiz. I don't remember.
And two, what do you think about that statement as
(39:38):
being the old gays persona that you are together, the
family that you are together, has that saved you.
Speaker 7 (39:46):
It's been kinda like the Booster.
Speaker 5 (39:51):
Rocket Booster, that you're your own trajectory.
Speaker 7 (39:55):
And I think I was and maybe all.
Speaker 5 (40:00):
I was for kind of low downward trajectory when this
opportunity came along. And I know for me it's definitely sparred,
re entered gensation and just new activity physical end brain
(40:25):
activity that I'm sure.
Speaker 7 (40:28):
It's gonna been make me live longer.
Speaker 2 (40:32):
When the okay started, I was at a downpoint in
my life in two thousand and eight, and during the
financial crisis, I lost my house in Palm Springs. Thanks
to Bob, he got me into senior housing where I
lived and I absolutely loved it, but I was low.
(40:53):
I literally I didn't have sex for like ten years.
And then Paul was so and the old days came
up and they started making comments about how attractive I
was or you know what nice clothes I wore, and
all of a sudden things really really started changing for me.
(41:15):
And it has totally turned around. Now I'm on social
media sides, I'm out there having a great time and everything.
So the timing for me couldn't be any better. Being
an old Kaye just uplifted me.
Speaker 3 (41:32):
You have each gone through such devastating things. I mean, Mick,
you've almost died several times. Bobby almost died. Just say
you almost died, Bill. You've lived through so many devastating things,
relationships and the death or something's like, so much pain.
And to hear so much joy in you and to
(41:53):
see so much joy in you, I mean, I think
that's your real your real gift to me and your
real gift to this world, to be able to see
that much joy and that much love and connection between you.
Speaker 4 (42:05):
The old expression goes, you know, the only way you're
going to experience.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
The mountaintop is if you've been in the lowest.
Speaker 4 (42:12):
Valley, and you know the differences are immense, you know,
and I don't ask why about it? I just experience
it now it's been I guess you know. I deserve it.
Speaker 1 (42:31):
I deserve it. You know that, Like they tell about
two two.
Speaker 4 (42:35):
Really hot guys to get together and they think, oh,
isn't it wonderful they're getting married and somebody else have
and say, no, they deserve each other.
Speaker 5 (42:47):
And when you have so many people responding to we
just got back from lost for three days, and I
don't know how many times people recognized us and would
come up and want to shake our hands or talked.
Speaker 7 (43:08):
To us, or have their photo taken with us.
Speaker 5 (43:13):
And when you get that kind of feedback and live.
And you also read the tomments coming from fans on
the various videos and how important we have been to
them making strategic decisions about their lives. That is the
(43:39):
most rewarding feeling of all.
Speaker 2 (43:42):
We also just got through with the Virgin Voyage cruise
to the Western Mediterranean and we flew into Barcelona, and
at every airport and every port and every excursion we
went on, we were recognized. I mean, it was fun
(44:03):
to be recognized as the local trader Joe's and that
kind of thing. But all of a sudden, I realized
we're known around the world.
Speaker 1 (44:12):
When people come up to me, I thank them and
tell them, I mean, we wouldn't be where we are
without you, and so many people tend to forget about that,
and it is very important. And I am so happy
to be old and to just have changed my way
(44:34):
of thought that I get so much from giving to you,
and when you give it back, oh my god. I mean,
I'm just in have an exploding. I'm a hugger and
I hug everybody. I don't shake hands, I hug you
and it bad. Be good. There are we doing again?
Speaker 3 (44:52):
Yes, I am with you. On that one. I mean,
we kind of come full circle here with what we
were talking about in the beginning. The power of seeing
each other, the power of telling the truth about the
situation you're in and making choices that are in line
with what you want for yourself and what you want
for others, and just that power of really seeing each other.
(45:14):
When we started talking, we were talking about the power
of seeing others, of loving them and touching them when
they are ill or suffering, And we come back around
an hour later to talking about the power of seeing
each other in our joy and how infectious that is, right, Like,
(45:35):
this is the same medicine to me. It's that power
of seeing each other and celebrating what we see.
Speaker 13 (45:42):
I think we're making the world better by what more
we're doing, and maybe a small way, but that's that
what happened.
Speaker 1 (45:54):
I love on.
Speaker 5 (45:56):
The Law.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
You know, things just pop in to your space. Sometimes
it will pop up for you know what they say
that's what I need too.
Speaker 5 (46:10):
Well.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I love those moments. So it's like, oh, I don't
know what it is, but I don't really like it.
They're crazy, they.
Speaker 7 (46:19):
They're old.
Speaker 1 (46:21):
You know, it's still going.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
I think this is a really wonderful place for us
to start heading towards the close of our time together,
because joy is so powerful and I love it's not
just who you are to the queer community in general.
It's not just who you are to the younger generations.
It's not just who you are to other elders who
(46:47):
maybe need to see that there is still joy and
connection available. It's all of it. Like the world is
so heavy, and to know that you all, personal and
collectively have lived strough through so many things and that
this life is possible. To me, that's a really a
(47:08):
powerfully hopeful message for the world.
Speaker 7 (47:12):
And humor is a big factor in that.
Speaker 5 (47:15):
When you are happy inside and when you're smiling, you're
releasing endorphins or whatever throughout your body that are life
affirming and it's so much better than being glum and
(47:41):
negative about stuff.
Speaker 2 (47:43):
And don't forget, laughter is the best medicine of.
Speaker 3 (47:48):
All, right, alongside goofiness, which is my preferred medicine. I
love this all right. Do you have any last messages
for anyone in particular or in general that you want
to share before I bring us to a close here, My.
Speaker 2 (48:06):
Friends, life has its ups and downs, but there's no
other ride like it.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
Thank you, Bill. All right, let's talk about that book.
This book is coming out. It will be out just
a couple weeks after this episode air, So if you're
listening to this now, go pre order their book.
Speaker 2 (48:27):
One of the beauties of the book to me, which
I didn't even think about when we went into it,
is we just got through recording the entire book and
in our own voices, so people can either get the
hard copy version or they can get the audible one
(48:49):
and hear audible book and listen to each one of us.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
Yeah, and having read the book, everybody I vote for well,
I vote for every available copy, so you can, you know,
buy lots of books, but being able to hear each
one of your stories in your own voice, that's going
to make that book come alive for so many people.
Speaker 1 (49:12):
Yes, I actually stop a couple of times because you
say this step, but then you're reading it back and second, whoa, whoa, Well,
and it really got me. So I think it's going
to get you to the audible part of it's fun.
Speaker 3 (49:30):
Yeah, as somebody who recorded my own book as well,
it's like it's one thing to write these stories on
the page and then you have to hear yourself say them,
and there's something very different about that to say, I'm
glad you brought that up.
Speaker 5 (49:42):
It's funny, it's raw voices, kind of saucy.
Speaker 7 (49:49):
If you will. Wait, all really kind.
Speaker 5 (49:55):
Of let go of our inhibitions when we had our
interviews with Dispair, the author who collected all of the
stories and netted them together.
Speaker 7 (50:12):
So people will find many.
Speaker 5 (50:15):
Different emotions in it, but those who can't read them
will be pictures.
Speaker 3 (50:24):
There is something for everyone with the old Gays, all right,
So we're going to link to your social media accounts
and your YouTube channel and to the book. Of course.
I am so glad you're all in the world as
you are together and as you are individually. I'm so
glad all of you survived and are bringing so much
joy to yourselves.
Speaker 7 (50:45):
And we are family.
Speaker 3 (50:48):
Can you tell me what that means for you.
Speaker 2 (50:51):
We have ups and we have our doubt, but in
the end.
Speaker 14 (50:56):
We're all together, we work out our For instance, people
think we're these perfect four, but we just went through
a rough time.
Speaker 1 (51:06):
But we sat down and talked about it respectfully to
each other, and I came out just wanting to spread
my rings around every one of all these guys, because
sometimes it's hard to speak your truth. But we did it.
We survived it, and I just feel yummy. I'm always yealing.
(51:32):
I I do, I do because we got past this
and they don't even know how it affected me. But
it's just I just went home and I was just
like so loving and protective feeling of these guys. It's
a family thing, and you do yourself, but people just
forget to talk for me.
Speaker 7 (51:55):
This family is really the.
Speaker 5 (51:57):
Only family I had because there's not much left my
birth family.
Speaker 4 (52:05):
So you know, we do take care of each other,
and I think this last Las Vegas to reinforce that,
but we've been doing that throughout our times together, that
we look out for each other, you know, especially when
we travel, we make sure everybody's okay because you know,
we're for all men traveling.
Speaker 3 (52:26):
Yeah, I mean, you're you're learning so much in this,
like not only as a family and not only as friends,
but like friends in the spotlight with a very specific
shared experience, right, and like how are we going to
do this together? And that willingness to learn new skills,
to acknowledge and understand here are the things that are
(52:48):
going to take me out of relationship, and here are
the things that are going to bring me back in
and being willing to do that work with yourselves and
with each other like I always love to see anybody
do that at any age. It is not all right,
my friends, I have kept you long enough. Thank you,
all of you. We will add links to your social
(53:09):
media in the show notes, and everybody be sure to
go order their new book, The Old Gay's Guide to
the Good Life for even more insider details about their lives.
We will be back with your questions to carry with
you right after this break. Each week I leave you
(53:33):
with some questions to carry with you until we meet again. Now,
a lot of things in this conversation stood out for me,
not just I guess, not just in the conversation itself,
but in the things that I was thinking about, the
stuff that came up for me as I was preparing
for a conversation. Each of these four men has been
through so much, from their early years as gay kids
(53:55):
in an even more openly homophobic culture, to the joy
and freedom of the seventies, the intensity of the eighties
and nineties, the financial havoc of the early two thousands,
and the support and the connection that they found in
each other. They've just they've all been through so much.
We started this conversation talking about the power of being
(54:17):
seen inside suffering and death.
Speaker 4 (54:20):
Right.
Speaker 3 (54:20):
Remember Bill saying talking about the beauty of touching and
caring for somebody in their suffering. What that meant to
him to be able to really see and tend to
people as they were dying. And we closed our conversation
talking about the power of being seen in life, the
(54:40):
energy and the vitality that being seen by other people
can give you, being seen and celebrated in your joy
and in your survival, in the full fabulousness that is you.
There's just such power in being seen wherever we are,
for all of us. How about you, what did you
(55:02):
take from this conversation? Everybody's going to find something different,
but I do hope you found something to hold on to,
and I hope you have people in your life who
see you for the full gloriousness that you are. This
is the last show for season three. We will be
back next week with the first of our series of
(55:24):
re releases, so be sure to stick around for that
and let me know how today's episode felt for you,
or tell me something about the season as a whole.
Tell me whatever you'd like. You can leave a comment
on social media. We are on most platforms at refuging Grief,
or you can do any of those things in review
on your favorite podcast platform. Use the hashtag It's Okay
(55:45):
pod to share your reflections on the show and get
these conversations going in your own communities. Everyone is at
least a little bit not okay, and it's time we
start talking about that together. It's okay that you're not
a You're in good company. Enjoy the re release season friends.
(56:06):
I'm not entirely sure when season four will be out,
but we will keep you posted. It's okay that You're
not okay. The podcast is written and produced by me
Megan Divine. Executive producer is Amy Brown, co produced by
Elizabeth Fouzio, social media support from Micah, editing by Houston Tilley,
and music provided by Wavecrutch. Today's background noise is the
(56:30):
very quietly snoring dog on the floor next to me.
Host
Megan Devine
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