Women, Life, Freedom: Grief and Power In Iran, with Nazanin Nour

What’s happening in Iran and why are you hearing about it so much? 

This week on Here After, Iranian-American actor & writer Nazanin Nour on the protests unfolding in Iran, grief in the Iranian global community, and how the whole world has the power to fight for women, life, and freedom. This episode is so special - I need you to listen. 

 

In this episode we cover: 

• What’s happening in Iran and why the whole world is watching
• Why violence thrives in secrecy (no matter where it’s happening)
• Grief and guilt in the Iranian diaspora: what it’s like having friends and family members inside Iran (including how well meaning friends don’t quite get it)
• The power of solidarity - how being SEEN gives you the courage to continue fighting
• The ways mourning and protest are woven together through Persian culture
• Tangible actions you can take to support the people of Iran

 

Announcement: want to become a grief-informed therapist? Registration is open now for Megan Devine’s 6 month grief care professional program. Details at this link. 

 

Notable quotes: 

“Outrage is an act of grief.” - Nazanin Nour

“The guilt I feel for leaving unscathed thanks to the country of my birth has never left me.” - Nazanin Nour

“Hope is watching the Iranian people on the ground in their fight - how they're not backing down and they're not giving up - that gives me hope and strength to continue for them. Because if they're actually risking their lives, literally risking their lives, the least I can do is continue to be loud for them from over here.” - Nazanin Nour

About our guest:

Nazanin Nour is an Iranian American actress, model and writer. She’s appeared on several television films and shows, including Madam Secretary, and Persia's Got Talent. She’s one of several Irani-Americans in the public eye making sure that the world knows what’s happening in Iran right now: widespread protests following the murder of Mahsa Amini, and the violence that continues against the Irani people by the dictatorship. Follow her on IG @iamnazaninnour 

Additional resources

 

If you need even more encouragement to join this fight, watch this short video from Cee-Roo on IG. 

 

Follow Nazanin Nour and other Iranians on social media, and share news from the Iranian protests far and wide. Keep the pressure up.

Sign the Amnesty International Petition to call on states to set up an independent UN mechanism now to investigate and ensure accountability for the most serious crimes under international law in Iran.

 

Participate in the global campaign to stand with the women of Iran by sending a lock of hair to your elected officials. Read more about the #HairForFreedom campaign in this article. 

 

The passage I read comes from Nazanin’s article in the French publication Les Glorieuses. Read it here.  

Get in touch:

 

Thanks for listening to this week’s episode of Here After with Megan Devine. Tune in, subscribe, leave a review,

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
None of it makes sense all of a sudden, everybody,
every child in Iran. The excuses they've given have ranged
from this one committed suicide, this one had a pre
existing condition. A young boy just a few days ago
was shot with bullets with live ammunition and died as
a result. The story that they told the public was
he was bitten by a dog and he got infected

(00:20):
from that dog bite, and he didn't get it treated
and he perished. I mean, it's if it wasn't so
enraging and infuriating and absolutely absurd, it's comical. This week
on Hereafter, Iranian American actor and writer nazanin Nor on
the protests unfolding in Iran, grief in the Iranian global community,

(00:43):
and how the whole world has the power to fight
for women, life and freedom. Please stay tuned for this one, everybody.
We will be right back after this first break. Before
we get started, one quick note. While we cover a

(01:03):
lot of emotional relational territory in each and every episode,
this show is not a substitute for skilled support with
a licensed mental health provider or for professional supervision related
to your work. Hey friends, today's episode is really special
and I want everyone to hear it. You might have

(01:25):
seen news stories or social media posts about the protests
in Iran. I know I've been sharing about it a
lot on Instagram and on Twitter. Now we get into
what's actually happening in Iran during my conversation with today's guests.
But I want to tell you why we're talking about
it today now. One reason, as you will hear in
the show, is that talking about the protests, talking about

(01:47):
the revolution helps global knowledge and global pressure, helps support
and encourage Iranians fighting for their rights, and it pushes
national and global governments to take action. The second reason
we're talking about this today is that grief is at
the root of these protests. Grief is at the root

(02:10):
of these protests. Massa Amini was killed by Iran's morality
police because of the way she wore her hijab. Her
death unleashed a wave of protests against the brutal oppression
women have endured for decades under the Islamic Republic. As
more people are beaten and killed by the morality police
during these protests, family members aren't allowed to identify their bodies,

(02:32):
bury their dead, or gather together to mourn, and as
you'll hear in the show. There's also deep grief for
those Iranians who live outside of Iran watching their people,
often their friends, and their family members, fight and die
for their rights. In news stories on The Ellen Show,

(02:53):
in magazine essays, and on social media, Iranian American writer
and actor nozzanin Nor calls for feminists around the world
to stand with Iranian women as they fight for their liberties,
and she joins me today to talk about the power
of global attention and the ways that both rage and
mourning are deeply entwined in Persian culture. Nothing welcome to

(03:18):
the show. I am thrilled that you're here. Thank you
for having me. I'm happy to be here, absolutely Okay.
So there are two things that I want to do
here together today. One is help people understand what's happening
in Iran right now and why it's essential to keep
talking about it. And the second thing, I would really
love to talk about the ways that grief and mourning

(03:40):
intersect with what's unfolding in Iran specifically, or maybe especially
for the Iranian diaspora. Diaspora. I'm going to say it
like night, I'm going to say that like nineteen different
ways in our in our conversation today, but no one cares.
No one's gonna be listening to me anyway. So to
get us started, can you help us understand what these
protests are about? Sure? So, in a nutshell, it started

(04:03):
around a little over four weeks ago. So there's a
young woman named Massa Gina, I mean, she's Irani and
Kurdish woman, and she was arrested by the entertained by
the Morality Police in Iran for improper hedge up. Because
Iran is ruled as a theocracy ever since the Islamic
Revolution of nineteen seventy nine, so head job, a head
covering and away a woman dressed became mandatory under Islamic

(04:26):
Republic's law. So there's these They've changed names over the years,
and for the last ten or so years they've been
called the Morality Please the gash to air shut. So
what they do is they patrol and they look for
people who aren't dressed modestly. The severity will kind of
ebb and flow over the years, depending on who's actually
president or who's in charge, or what arbitrary reasons of

(04:46):
when they want to crack down and not. But the
main point is that women do not have a quality
and freedom there. They don't have the bodily autonomy and
the choice to wear or dress however they want. So
this young woman got stopped, she got detained, and according
to witnesses that were in the patrol van with her,
as well as her family, her brother that witnessed some
of this attack on her, she was beaten in the

(05:09):
head with a baton and her head was bashed against
the side of the morality police van. So they took
her to where they take a lot of women who
get stopped for this type of thing. It's it's like
a re education center, they call it. And while she
was there, there CCTV footage that showed her fainting. She
slipped into a coma and she died two days later.
So this sparked these protests in Iran. And it's not

(05:33):
just her death or the head the forced head job
that is being protested. It quickly evolved into anti government sentiment. Now,
these protests have happened many times before in Iran. These movements,
these uprisings um just even in the last ten to
twelve years, we've seen five or six of them. Of note,
what happens is it's kind of the same playbook where
the Islamic republic sends in their police forces. They cracked

(05:55):
down severely, protesters are killed, detained, unlawfully indicted on trum
trumped up charges, taken to prison, and they kind of
get stopped after a couple of weeks. This one is
actually has gained momentum and it's continuing to move forward.
We're seeing strikes from workers in the nation as well,
students at universities, teach some teachers that are joining their

(06:16):
students as well. So it's a sustained uprising and movement
that we've been seeing, which is huge, and also the
support from the international community has been growing. More people
are talking about it. We still need more media coverage,
but there are more eyes on Iran right now as
these things continue, and you know, children are being killed

(06:37):
as well. We have teenagers. Amnesty International released the report
just a couple of days ago that I have confirmed
twenty three children. These are children that are either beaten
to death by the regime forces or shot with bullets.
And the reasons that the regime is giving to the
public through state affiliated media are oh well, this one

(06:59):
committed suicide. This one had a pre existing condition, and
it's obviously clearly lies. The parents have come out and
spoken out against the regime's lies, but families get threatened
all the time into silence. They don't allow people to
mourn properly, so they take the bodies. People can't even
bury their loved ones properly. So this whole movement now
is it's not just about mandatory or force head job,

(07:21):
which is how it started, is being led by women
as well. Of course the men have been side by
side and have joined them, but it really kind of
started as a feminist uprising. If we want a quality,
give us our bodily autonomy, and also we want freedom.
We don't want to live under a theocracy. We don't
want your forced religion. Everyone should be able to practice
what they want, but your belief should not be forced
on to me. So it turned into as it always does,

(07:44):
when we hear slogans of death to the dictator, death
to the regime. They just want this government gone. Yeah,
and as you said, like, this is not this is
not new, and as I sort of listened to what
you're saying, and also the little bit that I know
about the story of revolution and revolt for Iran, like
I have this image in my head of like this concrete, reinforced,

(08:07):
giant set of doors, and the will of the people
and the will of women and the rights of women.
Like a battering ramp hits that every few years and
cracks it a little bit and cracks it a little
bit and cracks it a little bit. And what what
we seem to be, what I hope we're seeing now
is the splintering of those doors. That's a great analogy.
It is. It's all these little cracks that have been

(08:28):
forming and it's just getting wider and wider. And as
I told you before, privately, the support from the global
community means a lot to Iranians inside of Iran because
it shows them that people are finally listening. For many years,
they have been living under this oppressive, oppressive regime, and
they have felt like the international community has turned a
blind eye to what they're suffering under. And this time

(08:50):
it feels different. This time we feel the support of others,
people from other countries and religions and ethnic backgrounds that
are actually stand side by side with the Iranian women
and the Iranian people. So, you know, I'm hoping that
this time is different and that those cracks continue to
become bigger and bigger until the whole system gets knocked down. Yeah,

(09:10):
I mean this is this is a practice of or
a process of like turning turning the spotlight on things.
You know that that one of the tactics of the
Islamic Republic is to shut off internet access, and shutting
off internet access shuts off the observer, right, this is
I mean, we'll we'll just use a tiny microcosm for
an example here, everybody, But like I bet we all

(09:32):
know or have experienced domestic violence or child abuse in
the home with sort of upstanding members of the society.
The parents are like held up as these amazing people.
But what happens behind closed doors is where all of
the violence erupts and abuse. And for Iran under this
leadership is really the wrong word here, but under this regime,

(09:53):
those doors are often closed. And if people start to
kind of get wind of my my analogy gets a
little wonky here. But like if people start to get
wind of what's actually happening, the response of the abuser,
the response of the your regime is to stop looking
at this. There's nothing to see here. Move along, it's
all fine, it's not gonna happen again, No big deal.

(10:16):
We're on the u N Women's Council, Like all is well,
no big deal, nothing to see, move along, will focus
on something else, Leave us alone. And what's happening with
attention from the world outside of Iran, like not letting
those blinds close, not letting those doors get shut, not
letting things happen in secrecy and in silence anymore. And

(10:39):
I think a lot of Iranians two have been very frustrated,
not just inside of Iran, but in the diask for
communities because they're reporting on the goings on inside of
Iran haven't always painted the full picture of what's happening.
And so a lot of people are fed up and
frustrated and want the world to see what the Islamic

(10:59):
Republic has done and is capable of doing and continues
to do um And that's why I think it's so
important for us to talk about it. And you know,
it does feel to go to your analogy. Of course,
as an Iranian American, you hate the fact that the country,
your motherland, the country your family and your parents and
your ancestors come from, is associated with these people that

(11:21):
have done such horrible things, and it's like, you don't
want people to conflate the Islamic Republic with the people
of Iran. So I know some people might have had hesitation.
Maybe I've in the past haven't been as vocal because
you're already represented so negatively in the media that you
don't want to add to that. I know I've heard

(11:41):
that from a lot of people in diaspora. But you
get to a certain point where you're like, this is
the reality. We are not the Islamic Republic. We are Iran,
We are Iranians. The Islamic Republic is not us, and
they don't represent us, and now is the time to
expose everything they've been doing, report on it accurately, so
hopefully the world can also, world leaders, world powers can
actually take effective action, yeah, and really identify with the

(12:05):
people of Iran, not this regime of handful of very violent,
oppressive dictators. I want to go back to the spark
for this. We're gonna link to your Instagram and all
of those things. But the reason that I know you
is because I was following you anyway and then started

(12:25):
seeing all of this stuff about the protests and sharing it.
One of the posts that you wrote. You wrote, as
Iranians recognize a two day period of mourning from masah Amini,
the young girl who was murdered by the Morality Police
for improper hijab, Iranians have taken to the streets in protest.
These protests are a form of mourning. Mhm. I get
choked up because I was watching a bunch of videos

(12:47):
before we started, and they're really fucking emotional, right, Like
it's hard to live it, yes, and it's also hard
to be witnessing it because if we're watching it, we
have to feel what that is like. We have to
feel that pain and that suffering and that morning more
than me having a side track into getting weak because
welcome to my world. I do it all the time.

(13:10):
I love that these protests are a form of mourning, right,
and that outraged as an act of grief in a way.
That's one of the hair cutting stems from as well.
And tell me about that. It's an ancient Versian tradition
and it's referenced in the Shop Nam, which is this
epic from many years ago that was written. The cutting

(13:32):
of the hair. It's it's not only a form of
mourning and grief it's also an act of protest, and
that became one of the biggest symbols right now associated
with this movement, which is why you see people doing it.
There's a whole movement, I believe it's called You've Got
Mail where people are cutting off a piece of their
hair and sending it to the u N, sending it
to UH, to the Iranian officials that the u N

(13:53):
to to show them how nobody agrees with what they're doing,
and how that the global community is standing into volunarity
with Iranian women and the people of Iran. Yeah, I
want to dive into that one. I didn't know about
that one. That's cool. We're going to link the heck
out of that one. We talked about the importance of
outside witness having access to actually see what's happening inside

(14:15):
Iran right now, paying attention to it because it's embarrassing.
It's embarrassing for a violent regime to be exposed for
being such violent dictators. But one of the things that
you and I were talking about before we got rolling
was what it means to the people protesting, what it
means to the people living there to know that people
are watching. Can we talk about that power of being

(14:37):
seen for a minute. Yeah. Absolutely. I mean one of
the biggest things that I've been hearing from inside of
Iron for the last few weeks is please keep exposing
what's happening. Please keep the spotlight on us and what
we're doing and what's going with the Islamic Republic has
put us through for the last forty three years. Please share,
Please talk to as many media outlets as you can
and disseminate accurate information about what life is like inside

(14:59):
of the Islamic Republic under the Islamic Republic. And it
motivates them to see that there's people that are supporting
them and celebrating them. Now, let's be honest too, they're
literally putting their lives on the line. They're on the
ground doing the fighting. So you know, it might not
be as impactful for them to see a celebrity post something,
but it doesn't hurt. It helps keep the spotlight. And

(15:21):
there was a tweet that a friend of mine hosted
a journalist and Yasha are actually and he mentioned how
one of his friends told him, oh, you know all
these actresses that are foreign actresses that are going on
Cameron cutting their hair and solid they're just doing it
for attention. They don't really care about Iran And he
was like, I don't care if they don't care about it.
Around the fact that they're doing it and bringing attention.

(15:42):
We're gonna love all those actresses. We're going to support them, musicians,
We're gonna buy their music. We're gonna, you know, because
they still took the time to show solidarity with something
that's really important. And Iranians are very gracious, hospitable, warm people.
We will not forget that you had our back. We're
gonna now forever have your back. So I actually agree
with him. I don't care what your intentions are doing it,

(16:04):
you know, Yeah, yeah, I mean this is this We're
in the age of social media pressure, right where like
people with cameras and people with access to big audiences, Like,
the more we make those hashtags trend, the more the
news outlets cover them, the more the politicians and the
u N and governing bodies sort of wake up and

(16:24):
they go, oh, ship, we should probably do something whatever
is within our power to do. We should probably get
on the right side of the people. There is that
weird thing like, even though I share as much as
I can about the protests for that reason, to keep
things trending and in the public eye and and all
of that stuff. It's also sort of it's armchair activism, right.

(16:45):
It costs me nothing to do that. My life is
not on the line there, but it's not zero, right.
I think in the face of any kind of atrocity,
we feel really helpless. And that's true for like our
local attract cities and global atrocities, Like we feel really helpless,
and I think that's one of the reasons we click

(17:05):
past it so quickly. Right, I can't watch that. I
can't watch that. It's too sad, there's nothing I can do.
It's too depressing, it's too violent. I can't watch this.
And I get that. I do get that. When there
is an easy action that definitely has a payoff, I
think you should take it. Right, there's not a lot
of opportunity to do something that isn't a big risk

(17:28):
for you but has the potential to really make a difference,
Like share that stuff, talk about that stuff, Tag your senators,
tag your representatives, tag your news outlets. Like it's like
the easiest act of activism. It is. And this is
one moment in time where actually posting on social media

(17:48):
and hashtagging actually does help our movement. One example of
that that I've given is I did an Instagram takeover
for Ellen Degenerous a couple of weeks ago when we
had the Global Day of Action for iran Um. So
they were protis planned in solidarity in a hundred and
fifty one cities around the world, and it was on
October one, and so I was at the l A
one and their digital marketing team contacted me and said,

(18:10):
we keep seeing this massa amni hashtag. Ellen is actually
aware of what's going on, and she's outraged by it,
and I can't. One of the their team members came
across a couple of my videos and said, what we thought,
we'd reach out to you to see if you're interested in,
you know, giving our audience a glimpse into what's going
on and showing what's happening at the rally. So that
hashtagging and all of that worked to get the attention

(18:32):
of her digital marketing team and of course the media too.
It's almost like shaming people into acting, you know, because
they're like, well, if everybody's talking about this, I guess
I gotta see something exactly, so it does bring awareness.
Tagging your local media helps too, because again, like you said,
whatever the people are talking about and making trend is
what the news is going to cover, which isn't always fair.

(19:03):
I'm Megan Divine, and this is hereafter we've been talking
with actor and writer Nlsony Nor on what you can
do to help support the people of Iran. Let's get
back to it. I want to talk a little bit
more actually about how being seen boost morale. Right. We
talked about this with the ritual of haircutting, which I

(19:24):
think is fascinating and I absolutely love that campaign. We're
definitely going to link that in the show notes that
people know what's going on with that. But you and
I were chatting before we got rolling, and I said that,
you know, one of my books has been translated several
times into farcie. And since I've been posting about Iran,
I'm getting the sweetest messages from people just so appreciative

(19:48):
that that I'm posting about it, that that I, in
a sense do see them and I have some idea
of what's happening. I'm not there. My skin isn't on
the line, like my life isn't on the line, but
it's important to speak about and the just the sweetness
in the messages that we're that we're getting from that
community about the power of being seen, and that not

(20:09):
feeling alone in the world as they so often have,
not feeling alone in the world gives them the strength
that they need to keep fighting and to keep pushing
for what's right. Yeah, I think it's very cool that
you have a book translated into Persian, so that congrats
on that. Yeah, I think that, as I've said before
to you, Iranians are very warm and hospitable and very

(20:32):
kind and caring and thankful and appreciative. They love to
show gratitude to someone who has done something good onto
them and they will reciprocate that tenfold. So the fact
that you even did that and showed solidarity, those people
are now getting to be your fans forever because they
will remember that you stood up for them and stood
by their side when they really needed it. So thank
you for doing that. And I know they definitely appreciate

(20:53):
it anywhere, absolutely, And I think you know our listenership
knows this too. They know the power of being seen
and how that kind of solidarity allows you to survive
the things that you have to survive, the crap of that,
the violence of that, the pain and the suffering of that.
If somebody is surrounding you with love and bearing witness,

(21:14):
it doesn't make all of that stuff okay, but it
can very often give you what you need to show
up for one more day of surviving it. And I
think this is this is what I hope with this
global outpouring that continues to happen paying attention to what's
happening in Iran, that people really feel that they're being seen,
so that they do have the power to keep on

(21:36):
being the bodies on the line the way that they are. Yeah. Yeah,
So I want to back up a little bit and
talk a little bit about your life. Your parents left
Iran in the mid seventies to come to graduate school
in the US, and they saw what was happening in
Iran with revolution in the late seventies, and they decided
to stay here in the States. So this is kind

(21:57):
of an oddly phrased question, but how was Iran present
in your life as a kid growing up? It was
ever present. They Yeah, my parents got married in nineteen
seventy five, and then they came to the US to
attend university, and the plan was always to go back
after they got their degrees. And that was most Iranian's

(22:18):
plans that came here in the seventies pre revolution. Not
only did the revolution throughout their plans because they were
waiting to see what happened, but then the Irani Rock
War started, so there was just so much in flux,
so much change, and they thought and their family back
home also told them, my family that especially since you
have a daughter now, it's best for you guys to
stay there. So they became Americans without ever having intended to,

(22:44):
but it was ever present in my life. We were
raised with Persian culture. I was being taught to speak
Persian along with English as well. I was enrolled in
Persian school, which is where I learned more culture, dance, history, language,
reading and writing for Visian. So we were raised with
that culture. And one thing that my parents, and it's
very prevalent among Iranians the diasporas. Your parents always tell

(23:07):
you you're Iranian, You're not American. Okay, we're not raising
you with American culture or whatever that means. It's your
your Iranian through and through. So the families around us
that we grew up with were Iranian. You know, some
of our neighbors were from other immigrants or minority community,
so we we were friends with them as well, But
are the bulk of the people that we were always

(23:28):
with growing up. We're our Iranian friends and community that
we had built with each other. So it was ever present.
And I visited Iran a few times as well, which
is beautiful, lovely and definitely helps you connect to your
family and your culture on a deeper level. Yeah, there's
an article that you have out that, yes, we will
link to. I'm going to read a pretty long quote
if that's okay with you, or a passage if that's okay.

(23:50):
So in this article, you wrote, the guilt I feel
for leaving unscathed thanks to my country of birth has
never left me. Every time we'd fly out of Iran,
I'd look out of the window my motherland and cry.
I'd cry because I missed my family terribly. I'd cry
because I never had a guarantee to see them again.

(24:11):
I'd cry for all the birthdays, the weddings, and the
funerals I would never be able to attend, leaving me
to celebrate and grieve from Afar, I'd cry for all
the people I was leaving behind to fend for themselves.
So I wanted to bring that in to talk about
how you see your own grief unfolding in what you're watching,

(24:33):
and also what you see unfolding in your own Iranian
American community watching what's happening in your homeland. I can
safely say that the diaspora community here in America is
very traumatized for the last few weeks. Everybody is leaning
on each other for support, and it's almost become to

(24:56):
be very blunt, very difficult to hang out or spend
I'm with people that aren't in this community because we
understand that we have such a deep connection to it,
and not everybody is going to be able to have
that type of empathy and understand what we're feeling or
what we're going through without actually talking to us on
a deeper level. And I think a lot of people
are a little bit more hands off because they don't

(25:16):
know how to approach it, and so we've all been
kind of leaning on each other for support. Most of
us have family and friends there, and so with the
internet outages and just not always having the full picture
of what's happening, people safety, the crackdowns. Uh, it's really difficult,
and we live kind of with this constantly anxiety. You know,

(25:40):
nobody can put their phone down. We're just constantly like
everything we're doing is this and this, as we're cooking,
as we're you know, it's your phone is in your hand,
and the moment you wake up, you know, I know,
I'm sure maybe you've talked about this before, but it's
healthy to kind of wake up however, team breathe, maybe meditate,
give some gratitude, not immediately go into your phone. We
can't help it. If I get up at six am,

(26:02):
maybe because I gotta go key, and usually I would
go back to sleep. I'm like, you know what, let
me let me make sure what's happening anyrong. And then
you start seeing I'm like, well, I can't go to
slick now, I gotta figure out. I gotta contact, I
gotta disseminate information. And I'm not saying that to get
any type of sympathy or anything like that, but that's
just what a daily routine is. And so we all
feel this guilt. Of course, we feel I can talk

(26:25):
to speak for myself. I feel guilty that I get
to live here and grow up here, and I have
cousins and family members that have, you know, lived under
this oppression. And the only difference is that I just
happened to be born here while my parents were in
school and they didn't go back, you know. So, and
I believe the quote you're referring to from that article
was because I had I had my own run ins

(26:45):
with the morality please a couple of times an iron,
and I was let go because my family stepped in
and explained, oh, she's American. I was. She didn't understand.
We're so sorry. We'll make sure you know, and you know,
and you can pay them off sometimes too. So that's
also a huge issue in Iran is the economic disparity
of who can get out of these things. If you

(27:05):
want to compare it to in America, people get away
with certain crimes because they have means too, because they
have the money to fight it and the power and
the connections. And if you don't have that under the
Islamic Republic as well, it's gonna be worse off for you.
So um, yeah, the guilt comes from why do I
get to leave unscathed? Why do I get to live
here with freedom, and so it becomes really important to

(27:27):
motivate you to always use your platform to raise the
voices of your people, of anybody that's living under injustice.
I'm a big human rights advocate, women's rights advocate, LGBTQ, anything,
all the you know, things that deserve tension, all the
oppressed groups, all the minority groups, I'm always going to support.
So of course I'm gonna a hundred percent go hard

(27:49):
for my people. Yeah, thinking about the oh my god,
camaraderie of suffering is like the worst phrase ever brain like,
but I'm gonna run with it for a second. Like
the connection inside a shared experience is one of the
things you're talking about it. And this is something that
you know, I hear from grieving people all the time

(28:09):
that they feel most comfortable with other grieving people, right,
especially if the if the loss was violent or unexpected
or atypical. That we we gravitate to people who understand
us and the rest of the world. As hard as
they try, they don't get it. And sometimes that friction

(28:30):
between the people who know and the people who don't
know that is really impossible to navigate. It's a challenge,
and I think I made peace with it very early
and when this movement got started a few weeks ago,
in that I don't expect certain people to understand things,
and I'm going to lean on the people that do.

(28:51):
And it's not to push anybody away, but because people
that do come and ask questions and want to know,
I will inform them. Of course I'm happy to. And
that's why I like making these short form informational videos
as well, because people who aren't Iranian can come watch
these and get some information quickly, and then they can go,
you know, do their own research after that too, and
hopefully read some more articles, watch some more pieces and

(29:14):
understand the gravity of the situation. Yeah, it's a challenge
because then there's part of me that also feels badly
for my non Iranian friends, who I know are trying
or they mean well, or maybe they are really just
hands off because they don't know what to do or say.
But to that, I say, anything is better than nothing.
So trying to support in any way you can, or

(29:34):
even asking your Iranian friends what can I do to
make you feel supported right now would be great because
I I that happened to me twice just last night,
and I said Hey, what you can do is you
can post this, you can share this, you can get
people to sign this petition and tell your network to
do the same thing. And that's a huge help and
I appreciate that. And they feel like, is that it
I can't do this, I can't send money, I can't

(29:56):
I'm like, no, Actually, this really is helping because it's
keeping the spotlight on Iran and again it's educating the
public on what's happening under the Islamic Republic to Iranians. Yeah,
I think something to underscore here if you're listening to
this is don't be afraid to be awkward when you
are checking in on somebody you care about. It is
perfectly okay, in fact preferable to doing nothing. But it's

(30:18):
perfectly okay to say I know that I don't understand
what you're going through and I'm here for you. Are
there specific things that would feel useful and supportive to
you right now? I'm happy to do them right. And also,
you know you haven't mentioned this. There's there's a necessary
focus on you know, post keep the global spotlight on
things that kind of pressure keep talking about it. Are

(30:40):
there ways that you've felt sort of personally supported in
all of this, like there is the necessary focus on
global attention, global attention, keep the pressure up, don't let
things go. But that is exhausting. It is exhausting, you know,
for several reasons. So we didn't even touch on. But
you know, just being Iranian, being a woman, being away

(31:02):
from home, having the guilt over like that could have
been me if situation was just slightly different. That is
a lot. That's a lot for a person to take in.
Are there things that you've found that are are helping
you continue to do that work? I guess is my
very rambling way of asking that question. Receiving messages from
Iranians that are very supportive and just saying hey, kind

(31:28):
of like the messages you've gotten of support and gratitude
from people of thank you, please keep doing this. You know,
I don't personally need to get those messages in the
sense of I'm going to do it regardless because it's
important to me and I want them. I want Iranians
to have freedom finally after forty three years of oppression.
But that stuff is nice to see every now and

(31:50):
then when you feel like is this helping? Am I helping?
Am I doing anything, is this actually making a dent
in in this movement. So when you receive these messages
from inside of your r of please keep going. Everything
all of you guys are doing is helping you know that.
That's a nice little boost. And I think our friends
were all just kind of leaning on each other. We'll
talk to each other, will vent about our feelings to

(32:11):
each other. It helps that our parents understand, which is
a whole other level of grief for them because a
lot of them lived through the first one, the first revolution,
the Big Revolution nine and it's not actually the first
revolution anyone, but just the one that we're referring back
to when it changed from a theocracy, sorry, from a
monarchy to a theocracy. Also, I think it's important to
take a break to get fresh air, just move your

(32:34):
body around and keep yourself hydrated and well fed as
much as you can so you can't actually keep going
and you can put your efforts towards doing the right thing. Yeah,
tend the organism, Yeah yeah, yeah, you tend to all
of this so that you can actually have the motivation
to continue to fight, because it's not a thing where

(32:54):
we wanted to just fizzle out, where it's like, oh, well,
I guess the change didn't happen as fast as we thought,
so we're just going to stop. This is a revolution
in the making, which means it's a slow burn. Yeah.
I mean it's been a slow burn for forty three years,
so you know, like this isn't a you know, a
one week campaign with hashtags and then we get the
desired result and we can move on. I wish it
was that fast, but this this really does feel different. Mhm.

(33:20):
This time it does. It's the most sustained that it's been.
And we've seen again, we saw oil workers, We've seen
it with people petrochemical plants that are joining in on
I'm sorry, on strikes. We're seeing shop owners that have
joined in on strikes, students that are joining in and
have joined in on strikes, professors, you know. So the
more that those things happen, the more that the movement

(33:41):
gains steam and momentum. And there's a feeling of solidarity
and unity and side of Iran as well, not just
with the Uranians outside of Iran. And again it's it's
not stopping. The protests are not stopping, and they are
worse than you see on TV. There's a lot of
accounts from inside of Iran that we're not even seeing
all of it because how can we The internet gets
shut off, the internet get and yournet gets throttled. People

(34:03):
can't send everything. There was just a I don't know
if you saw Evan prison, and Iran is Iran's most
notorious prison. They put political prisoners, dissidents, environmental activists, journalist lawyers,
human rights attorneys, artists, students are held there and it's
the worst place to be. And there was a fire
there just a few nights ago, and it was the

(34:25):
biggest news story. And there's videos where you see two
little I don't know what they are, so I can't say,
but they look like little missiles or a little something
with that exploded once it hit the target in the prison.
And we still don't have the full story of what
happened there because not everyone was allowed to call out
to their families and tell them they're okay. When the

(34:45):
regime has told us a death count before, we know
that it's higher than what it is. So first State
TV reported four deaths, then they reported forty after a correction,
and then they went back down to four. So four
and forty that's a huge disparity. Which one is it?
Then they said, well, this the fire was started amongst
prisoners in this ward, but then gunshots were heard in
videos and tear gas was used, and prisoners are trying

(35:07):
to give us accounts of what happened and none, none
of it. We don't know which one is accurate. We
definitely don't believe the information coming out of the Islamic Republic,
but we still can't get the full story from the
people inside and the people that were in Evan as well,
So we're still trying to figure out what's going on
with that, and how many people are actually dead, yeah,
and how many people detained and suffering and family members

(35:30):
being incerned exactly, yeah, and and the the thuggery involved.
They're one of the young women who was murdered last week,
I believe. I was reading a story that they said, oh,
she fell out of a window, and her mother was like,
she didn't follow the damn window. She was out of protest, yeah,
a couple of weeks ago. And the story that I

(35:52):
was reading the other day was that some of her
family members had been pressured by the regime to sign
onto the official story and like you know, the thugs operate.
The way that thugs always operate is like, if you
don't say what we want you to say, we will
kill the people you care about. And that sort of
threat of violent is very powerful and very effective. So
this is why if you're like, but how can there

(36:14):
be all of these different accounts, Well, violent power wants
to stay in power by any means necessary, right, And
that young woman's name that you're referring to his nikoshocademy
and she Um. She went out into one of the protests.
One of her last texts to her friend I believe
it was, was that the security forces were after her,
so she was trying to evade them. And the next

(36:35):
thing we know, ten days later, her family found out
that her body was being held in a morgue in
a police station I believe it was, and they were
only allowed to see it for a brief second to
be able to identify her um. And then the authorities
told to her mother that, yeah, she threw herself off
of a building. None of it makes sense all of
a sudden, everybody, every child in Iran, the excuses they've

(36:56):
given have ranged from this one committed suicide, this one
had a pre exist in condition. A young boy just
a few days ago a shot with bullets with live
ammunition and died as a result. The story that they
told the public was he was bitten by a dog
and he got infected from that dog bite and he
didn't get it treated and he perished. I mean, it's
if it wasn't so enraging and infuriating and absolutely absurd.

(37:20):
It it's comical the reasons that they give for these deaths.
And so you know, where's the UN and the human
rights groups to be able to and I know there's
people that are working on certain things and petitions. There's
actually a huge petition that I have in my instagram
BYO as well that we're trying to get signed. It's
for creating an investigative mechanism by the UN to look

(37:40):
into crimes against humanity committed by the Islamic Republic. But
it would also serve to punish regime officials connected with
the recent uprising and to be able to put travel
bands on them so they can't go back and forth
freely to the U S and Europe, for example, and
to find their offshore accounts and assets and freeze those
as well. Yeah, hold people accountable for the grief and

(38:02):
suffering that they have perpetuated for forty three years and
continue to do so as long as they're allowed to.
I mean that sounds kind of overly simplistic, but violence
is allowed to continue when it's allowed to continue, And
it's the big It's one of the things that we
hear coming outside of Iran of people asking us, please

(38:22):
pressure your elected officials, specifically in the United States, for me,
because I'm American, please pressure President Biden and administration and
elected officials to not negotiate with the Islamic Republic to
revive the j c p o A, which is the
nuclear deal. That's one of the biggest things, because the
Iranian's feel like this will only serve to embolden the regime.
It's not going to actually affect helping the people. We

(38:43):
don't want. We don't want that to happen. No discussions
regarding what to do on Iran should include reviving that
nuclear deal. Yeah, we don't want those people having access
to bigger weaponry than they've already got. Yeah, definitely. So
there's there are a lot of actions that people can take.
We're going to link to all of them. In the
show notes, you're always going to see me posting about

(39:03):
this stuff on social media, everybody. These really are simple
actions that we can take in the face of atrocity,
and there are just there's just like violence after violence
after violence after violence all around the globe, and it
really is overwhelming and feeling like there isn't anything we

(39:24):
can do, like collapsing into that despair, while valid, not
really helpful in getting the world that we want and
taking the actions that you can take on behalf of
goodness and right and freedom and being human and all
of those things. Like these actions, It's okay if some

(39:44):
of them are easy, right, because as we've been talking about,
they do have a really big impact. And easy stuff
that has a big impact. I am here for all
day long. So yeah, I was gonna say just to
everybody that is a feminist who believes in human rights
and equality for all and for all oppressed people, to

(40:04):
please get involved and stand by the side of the
irunny people. Yeah, I actually want to touch on something
real real quick. I was just about to do our
closing question, but bringing that up. I know early in
the protests, there were some posts that were circulating that
we're saying, like, what's happening to women and girls in
Iran is, you know, an on the extreme end of

(40:25):
the spectrum of what's happening with reproductive justice and access
in the States, and sort of gathering all of the
people together who care about women's rights and and feminism.
And I know there was some pushback to say, hold on,
hold up, hold up, hold up, Like, don't conflate these two.
Don't draw focus away from what's happening in Iran to

(40:48):
sort of lump it together with the fight for reproductive
justice and access and rampant misogyny and other places in
the world. Us looking at you. The thing that gets
a little bit complicated for me, as we don't tend
to take action on things unless it's somehow personal, like
not good, not bad. It's just like that's how humans work,

(41:08):
Like if you don't know about it and it doesn't
touch you, you don't act on it. And I wonder
if there is and I honestly I don't know the
answer to this question. Is there a way to rally
the people who believe in the causes of feminism, who
believe in queer rights, who believe in reproductive access, who
believe in toppling systemic racism, Like, is there a way

(41:31):
to enfold us in the current global action to protect
Iran in a way that doesn't co opt what's happening
in Iran? Well, that's a great question, um, And I've
used the terms bodily autonomy and a woman's right to
choose specifically knowing that that would catch the attention of
progressives and liberals and feminists. I'm I'm a liberal myself,

(41:55):
so I know that that's a key word. It's a buzzword,
and I know it can it can turn on that
sympathy or empathy factor for women and feminists around the world.
You know that you don't have to be a woman
to be a feminist to get them to understand and
pay attention. I also did personally have just an issue
with the conflating of the two, because yes, they're both issues. Um,

(42:16):
the right to choose and bodily autonomy for what to
wear are in the similar vein. But the differences women
in Iran are getting murdered for not complying with certain
rules with not complying with mandatory hedgejob and in America,
I can go out and scream about being pro choice
all I want if I wanted to, I could go

(42:37):
get an abortion and no one's gonna come murder me
for it. You know, I'm not going to get detained.
Well now and now you can get detained, so not
that part. But I'm not getting murdered for it, is
my point. So I think the difference is we have
to understand that while they're in a similar under a
similar umbrella, yes, but in Iran they're under oppression, they're

(42:58):
under a theocracy. Would ever we say here where we
know that there are certain people, whether it's in a lawmakers,
officials on the Supreme Court that are trying to push
their own religious conservative agenda, Yes, but America still is
not run as a theocracy. Iran the Islamic Republic is.
And so that's a big difference. If that's what gets
people on board, great, use that analogy, that's fine, But

(43:21):
when discussing it too, I would I would love for
people to understand that what the women of Iran face
is much different than the women of America in the
sense of a woman's testimony is worth of a man's
in court. Women can't go to football stadiums or sports
stadiums to watch teams play there. They just they're not allowed.
They can't sing in public, they can't wear what they want.

(43:42):
If they want to get a divorce, they have to
go through so much in an Iranian court, in an
Islamic Republic court to have that done. Custody immediately goes
to the man. They need permission to travel. It's just
so much. That's a burden that's placed upon them. They
really cannot actually live with their full freedom. So it
is different than here. But if it brings people together
with empathy, great, we can use that analogy. Yeah, so

(44:04):
let's use that empathy and that outrage as a starting point.
And as we're talking about this publicly and socially in
whatever ways we can, to remember to center the women
of Iran and the children of Iran, and the people
who believe in bodily autonomy and freedom and the overthrow
of a violent, oppressive regime. So use whatever you need

(44:25):
to do to get yourself to the party, and when
you arrive at the party, remember to center the people
on the ground who are living in Thank you. Yeah, okay,
thank you for that. I love that. Now we can
end with my question that I'm closing every episode with
so with everything that you know, so reaching way back
in everything you know about your Persian culture, about the

(44:47):
revolutions that you and your family have seen, what you've
lived through, and what you know of your own Iranian
American communities and your friends, all of those whole things
put together. Knowing what you know, what does hope look
like for you? Right now? Hope is watching the Iranian
people on the ground in their fight and how they're

(45:09):
not backing down and they're not giving up. And that
gives me hope and strength to continue for them, because
if they're actually risking their lives, literally risking their lives,
the least I can do is continued to be loud
for them from over here. Yeah. I love that. I
love that. I mean, this is that is functional hope, right,
it's not I hope everything works out okay, and and

(45:31):
all of this stuff. It's like, right here in this moment,
what does that hope look like? And I'm taking their lead.
So they're fighting, they're continuing, they're not backing down. There.
You know, these are school girls that are taking off
their head scarves in front of police, in front of
under the undercover police, their principles, their teachers, they're out
in public, they're on the streets. They're ripping up pictures

(45:51):
of the Supreme Leader, Commedy and one of the leaders
of the Islamic Revolution, the Atola Fomani, who is dead,
and these are all crimes that could carry very harsh
sentences and they're doing it. So, you know, if a
fifteen year old girl can go do that, the least
I can do is my part from here, and that
gives me hope is that the youth is not giving up. Yeah, okay,

(46:13):
So we're gonna do a lot of calls to action
in the show notes and when we promote this episode,
we're gonna list a lot of the things you talk about.
Are there three to five things that you want people
to do? Actions, you want them to take, Petitions you
want them to know about. They can sign the amnesty
petition for the un investigated Mechanism. The petition that's coming

(46:33):
about to kick Iran off of the Commission on the
Status of Women is not ready yet, but people should
keep their eye out for it because I'm going to
also help do it push when that happens. They should
put pressure on their elected officials to find regime officials
that live in the US, for example, and to revoke
their visas and not allow them to travel here any longer,

(46:53):
to freeze any assets that they have in America. They
can also keep pressure on the Biden administration to not
revive the nuclear deal with you with this on my Republic,
and they can keep sharing and posting to keep amplifying
the voices of the people of irun excellent, and we
will put links to all of those things in show notes.
I'm so glad we got to do this together today

(47:15):
to thank you for having me on. Thank you so much.
All Right, stay tuned, everybody. We will be back with
your questions to carry with you in just a second.
Each week, I leave you with some questions to carry
with you until we meet again. Now, we cut out

(47:39):
a lot of it in post production, but you can
definitely hear me choking up a bunch of times in
this episode. It even took me a million takes just
to get through the introduction without crying. This episode was
really emotional and moving for me, and I hope it
touched you too. So for me personally, something I'm carrying

(47:59):
with me from this episode is that our actions do matter,
and that in the face of oppression in the face
of suffering, even when it's a whole world away are
sustained attention is what's called for. That sustained attention is
a powerful tool for change and a powerful act of

(48:19):
solidarity and bearing witnesses. Something we talk about a lot
in the grieving community, That power of being seen, of
feeling like you're not alone in whatever you're living through.
It really does make a difference, even in situations of
life and death, as we're seeing in Iran. What parts
of the conversation stuck with you today? Were there parts

(48:41):
of the show that made you think or cry like
I do all the time? Were there parts of this
episode that made you feel, I don't know, a bit
more likely to take action for Iran, for women, life
and freedom. Everybody's going to take something different from today's show.
But I hope you've owned something to hold onto, and

(49:02):
I hope you take that out into the world, and
I hope you tell me about it when you do.
Check out Refuge and Grief on Instagram or here after
pod on TikTok to see video clips from the show,
and leave your thoughts in the comments on those posts.
When you post about this episode or any episode of
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(49:24):
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and use the hashtag here after pod whatever platform you're on.
That's the way that we hear what you're saying. All
of us, the whole team. We really do love to
see where this show takes you and the conversations and
the actions that come out of it. If you want
to tell us directly how today's show felt for you,

(49:45):
or you have a request or a question for upcoming
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do that too. Write on the website Megan Divine dot CEO.

(50:08):
We want to hear from you. I want to hear
from you. This show, this world needs your voice. Together
we can make things better even when they can't be made.
Right now, speaking of togetherness, I would love to get

(50:29):
a whole lot more people listening to this show, not
just this episode, but the show in general. More people
listening means more people feeling brave enough to start these
kinds of conversations about difficult things in their own lives.
And as we know, I am a big fan of
changing the world via conversations about the things we don't
really talk about. Yeah, we'll leave it at that. You

(50:52):
can help start those conversations by getting more people to listen.
And you can do that by sharing the show on
your social media channel, is telling your friends about it,
sharing it with your coworkers. You could even treat it
like a book club, which is a really cool idea
like and get your friends together to listen to the
show every week and discuss the themes in each week's show.
That would be really cool And if I had more time,

(51:13):
I would organize it. So if you organize it, be
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thing you can do to help other people find here After.
Leave a review. Reviews help convince people to take a
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(51:33):
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I love reading your reviews. So you know, do it
for me to want more. Hereafter Grief education doesn't just
belong to end of life issues. As my dad says,
daily life is full of everyday grief that we don't
call grief, and as we heard in today's show, grief

(51:54):
is behind many many of our global headlines. Learning how
to talk talk about all that without cliches or platitudes
or shutting down. That's important skill for everybody, especially if
you're in any of the helping professions. And I want
to say if you are in one of the helping professions,
be sure to check the link in the show notes

(52:14):
to register from my upcoming intensive training Rehumanizing Grief. It
is a six month program that starts at this December two.
You do have to sign up for it soon though,
because spots are limited to just forty eight people. So
find all of the information on that training, other professional resources,
and my best selling book, It's Okay that You're Not
Okay at Megan Divine dot CEO. Don't stick an extra

(52:37):
M on the end of that. We couldn't get that one.
Megan Divine dot c oh Hereafter with Megan Divine is
written and produced by me Megan Divine. Executive producer is
Amy Brown, co produced by Elizabeth Fossio with logistical and
social media support from Micah, Edited by Houston Tilly, Music

(52:58):
provided by Wave Crush, and background noise this Halloween season
was provided by somebody somebody in my neighborhood making what
sounds like giant metal fingernails scratching against a giant metal chalkboard.
Sounds slowly and intently in the background of the whole show.