October 31, 2023 • 34 mins
This week, Tommy is joined by highly-acclaimed television producer Robbie Rogers, whose latest show Fellow Travelers is out now! Fellow Travelers is an epic LGBTQ+ love story and political thriller, chronicling the volatile romance of two very different men who meet in McCarthy-era Washington, one of the darkest periods in American history. Over the course of four decades, we follow the stories of five powerful main characters. Robbie opens up about the scene that made him break down in tears on-set, how people from all different walks of life can take something away from this series, being called to projects that dive into LGBTQ+ history, coming out as one of the first openly gay professional athletes, and learning to be proud of who he is today.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
Hey guys, welcome to I've never said this before with
me Tommy di Dario. Today's guest is the inspiring Robbie Rogers,
the accomplished TV producer behind so many fan favorite projects,
including what will surely become a fan favorite, the upcoming
series Fellow Travelers. This is one of the most highly
(00:24):
anticipated shows of the year, and for good reason. It
is absolutely brilliant. So Fellow Travelers is an epic LGBTQ
plus love story and political thriller chronicling the volatile romance
of two very different men who meet in the fifties
in McCarthy era Washington, which is one of the darkest
periods in American history, and they continue to face obstacles
(00:48):
in the world and in themselves throughout a period of
four different decades, from the fifties all the way through
the eighties. Matt Omer and Jonathan Bailey they lead the
series beautifully, along with the cast of characters that will justugh,
they'll just pull at your heart strings. And that is
the magic of Robbie man. Through his work, you feel
(01:09):
transported back in time to every decade on display in
Fellow Travelers, and you feel so deeply when watching the series,
and on a personal note, to see a show like
this being made.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
It gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It gives me hope for more inclusive quality content in
the future. And it's a show for everybody. It's a
show for anybody who has a heart, and I know
that's you listening. So today we're gonna dive into the
incredible series. We're also going to dive into many other topics,
like Robbie coming out as one of the very first
professional gay athletes. We're going to talk about how he's
(01:43):
learned to become proud of the person who he is
today and.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So much more.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So, let's see if today we can get Robbie to
say something that he's never said before. Robbie Rogers, how
are you today?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Good? It's good. It's good to be here, Tommy.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Thanks for having Oh I'm so psyched to have you on.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Good God.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
We're going to dive into your miniseries Fellow Travelers today,
which is so good. It's it's everything and more that
I would want in terms of content for the LGBTQ
plus community and beyond. It's it's just this incredibly powerful
love story, this thrilling political story, all the things there's
twisters turns, there's raw, real emotion. It's so fantastic. So
(02:28):
for everybody listening, why don't you set up this amazing
beautiful series.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Sure, Well, first, it's it's really nice to hear that
we shout it about a year ago. So all of
like the battle scars of being in Toronto during you know,
the fall winter are still like very fresh from my mind.
So all that that work we put into it, it's
just really nice that people are starting to see it
and be able.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
To talk about it now. So thank you so much,
Fellow Travelers.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Based off of Thomas mallan novel set in the Labyr
SCHAREDU McCarthy era, like the Red Scare in the fifties,
and you know what we've taken from that, you know,
it starts Levender Scare, and it touches a little bit
on these two guys that fell in love and like
the mystery behind their love story in the book, it
touches you know, the fifties and the eighties, but we
Ron and I and the writers and everyone involved have
(03:17):
expanded that. So the mini series is their love story
told over like multiple decades, the fifties, the sixties, Fire
Island in the seventies or just one of my favorite episodes,
and then obviously the eighties where they kind of you know,
reconnect as older men. But it's also like this political
it's you know, it's it's lace or it's kind of
intertwined with this political thriller.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Obviously, as I said, it's set in the fifties with McCarthy,
so it's it's the story of their interactions with him
and them trying to kind of take him down and
trying to.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Survive in that era when you know, gay men and women.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Were being purged from the government and and just banned
from you know, political life.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So I'm really proud of it. I'm really excited. Like
you said, it's got a lot of different access points.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
You know. Obviously, the love story is really it's core,
but for people who love you know, political thrillers, political.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
And dramas, it really is part for those people as well.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
And the series centers on quite a terrifying time or times,
I should say, in America. Four queer people. So why
was this an important story for you to tell?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I When I first pictured the Saron, I were working
on my Police from the Other and he sent me
kind of I think a box of or maybe it
was like two or three.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Books, and I picked it up and I finished over
a week, and I didn't know. I didn't know anything
without the Lavender Scare, so I knew what the red
scare was, you know, a SEALESVT. Folks, we don't learn
really about our history in school unfortunately. So I was
kind of a love story set at a time and
a place when the stakes are like so high. I was,
you know, I don't think obsessed is the right word,
(04:45):
but I couldn't put the book down. And I think
for a lot of gay people in general, it's like
when you find someone that you love, you like hold
them a little bit more closely, and your time with
them is a little bit more precious because especially at
that time or you know, I don't know, know it
could say even now, it could be ripped away from
you at any moment, you know, especially then you know, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties,
(05:05):
you know where it was really life or death, or
as I said, you could be in a perching the government.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
It's like those those love stories.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
The stakes are so high because you could lose it
at any second, and so to tell us a love
story during that time, I was like, Ah, it's just
you know, it's an incredible story. But it's also, i think,
really great entertainment as you've seen.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
No, it's super entertaining and it's super important and powerful,
which is why I love it. And I think, oh,
I think sometimes we forget as a society how far
we've come. And it's very easy to take things for
granted that we have today. And yes, there are fights
that are still needing to be fought. Of course, there's
a lot more work that needs to be done, but
there's so much work that was done by the people
who have come before us. I'm a millennial and I
(05:47):
never want to stop learning about my past and the
history and the LGBTU plus community. And sometimes I feel
like the younger generations who I love, they don't always
understand what people have gone through to get us to
where we are today.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
You know, Tommy, I.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Totally agree with you, I think, and not to be
like patronizing or condescending to anyone.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Really have come like such a long way.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
And benefit from so much that has been you know,
done and accomplished and fought for, you know, before us.
So you know, I'm married and I have kids and
live a life with a lot of privileges, and so
our history and these books and these stories are are
really powerful and I you know, as I said, it's entertainment,
but it's still it's important for people.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
To just be reminded of and to be you know, educated.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
So I one hundred percent agree with you, And I
laugh because I know, yes, us millennials and people below
younger than us, sometimes we all think that we know
everything about the world.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
But as we like delve into history and also see
how relevant it is.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Or you know, take things that we can learn and
learn about these stories, it's just, you know, it's really
rich storytelling and it's I think it's great for us
to just always be aware.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Of the past.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh yeah, and the cast brings the story to life
in such a magnificent way. Let's let's start with you know,
the romantic story, right, Jonathan Bailey and Matt Bahmer and
this series are phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal. What made them the
right choices for you to tell the story?
Speaker 4 (07:11):
I've known Matt now for a while and as you've seen,
Hawk is a character that you know on the surface
is incredibly beautiful and you can and very confident and surefooted,
and I thought Matt really presents as someone like that.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
But also there's so many.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Layers to him as a person and so many layers
to him as an actor, and so as you see
as the series progresses and as Hawk changes, I just
knew instinctually and just knowing Matt that he could deliver,
you know, and that he would be just the perfect
guy for it, which.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
He really is.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
I Mean, I've loved him as an actor for a
long time, but I think this is just such a
special role for him, and his performance was is incredible,
and the work that he put in was really remarkable.
I mean just watching him, you know, every day set
and you know his preparation over the weekend, like he's
always a workaholic and takes things very seriously.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But it's just it was it was pretty remarkable and
inspiring to see him take this role on.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And then Jonathan Bailey I knew because we Michael Branch
introduced me to him when we were auditioning people for
My Policeman, and you know, everyone knows Jonathan from Bridgerton,
which is like he's a sexy British guy.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
But I having that conversation with Johnny over, you.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Know, my policeman for a very different part, I could
see the innocence and the youthfulness and the idealism in him.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
And so when we.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Started to talk about who Tim would be, you know,
I thought that he could be just a really incredible
Tim and he's an incredible actor. And their chemistry is,
you know, until you really see them in a room together,
you're not sure. But we had a little chemistry read
for showtime and for Freemantle, and and I would think
it was within seconds that people were just like, Okay,
(08:57):
we're good, Like we got this very exciting.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So they and the.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Rest of the cast, Jeannie and Noah and Aaron and
Alicon like there's well, like we got so lucky.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
And they were so professional, all of them. So you know,
we're thrilled with how it all turned out.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, the performances were fantastic and the content, the scenes, well,
there are so many powerful ones throughout the series. I'm
curious to know if for you there was a scene
or a historical era that you really you really stayed
with that time period or that particular scene after you
were done filming it.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
There's so many different scenes.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
It's really hard to choose because I think, like you,
you know, as we look back at like like I
wasn't part of fire Island in the seventies, which seems like, wow,
that's crazy and a lot of fun, and like that
doesn't exist anymore. Like there's obviously different versions of what
Fireland is now. But there's a lot that I in
the show that I kind of wish I could have
(09:51):
experienced in some way or or want to know more about.
But I would say there is a moment, and I
don't want to spoil anything, but there's a moment of
the guys in the show where they're dancing and they're
completely naked, and I remember being on set and I.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Was behind the monitor and I just start crying.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
And I was like, gosh, for people at this time,
you know, this is in the fifties, That was in
the fifties, and I think fifty six or for people
at that time to be hiding in their apartments or
in their homes and to be in this room and
to be into it with each other and vulnerable and
naked and dancing together while like the world outside like
hates them and wants them, you know, purging their jobs.
(10:30):
And I'm assuming, like, you know, I don't think it
would be go going too far to say, you know,
like just removed from the country or from you know, society,
to like hold each other that closely and to be
able to have this moment and to love each other.
I just I found it incredibly emotional. And I remember
like going up to Matt and Johnny or maybe even both,
like after they had their clothes on, and just being like, gosh,
(10:53):
it's just so beautiful and not in like a in
the way, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
When I read this in the script, I was like, Oh,
this is gonna be really sexy. Blah blah blah. It
was just so emotional for me.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
And so I remember that feeling being on set at
like you know, I don't know, three or four of
the morning in Toronto and kind of and just crying
because I just found it really beautiful. So there's quite
a few moments like that in the show that I
that I remember, you know, vividly, but I would say
that was the one that I that always like comes
back to me and when I see it.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
When I was when we were editing the episodes, or
when I've rewatched it, I have that super feeling.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, And I think that scene and many other scenes
are why this series is so revolutionary, even in twenty
twenty three, because we come very close to having history
repeating itself many times, right, and it's not that foreign
of a concept that it could. So I think that's
why the series and showing moments like that when you
say it made you emotional, knowing how safe and protected
(11:49):
they were in that apartment dancing naked because they couldn't
do that in the outside world and be who they are.
It's so meaning and moving, moving because it is something
that you know, you just you hope we never have
to ever live through again, right of.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Course, and you know we made in Toronto, and most
of us are Americans that we're in this production, but
we take it for granted a little bit living in
the United States that we have like these freedoms. I
think it's important to remind you, like this is an
international show. I know it's on Pairmount plus around and
show them around the world, and you know, there's many
countries where you couldn't even have the freedom to show
(12:23):
a show like this, to watch a show like this,
So it still really exists, and like you said, you know,
as we've learned over the last few years as well,
like it's very fragile state of LGBT politics in different states.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
So it's not you know, I live in Los Angeles
with my family, and so I'm very, very privileged and
i have a lot of benefits there, but it's not
the same for everyone around the United States and around
the world.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, that's an important message worth sharing. And again another
reason why the series is so meaningful and will be
so meaningful to so many people. Something that I really
thought was cool in this series is how sexy it was,
but not in the way that you might think.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It wasn't salacious.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
It was the sex scenes had reason, they had power,
dynamics they had they were advancing the storytelling. And I
find in a lot of content and shows and movies
that are LGBTQ plus tailored, the love scenes are just
watered down or they're just so incorrect. It's like, that's
not how it works, And it's just disappointing because it's
(13:21):
like this rated rated, rated GGG version of it. But
you guys go there, you guys show it, you guys
explore it and I think that's a really important thing
to show people. So was that something you were very
conscious of when you were part of this project.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
We were you know, Ron has a rule in the
writer's room about like any scene like if it isn't
really making you turn the page or like push the
story forward, then like you know, we're throwing it away,
and it's pretty harsh about it.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
So I would say the same with like the sex scenes,
and like everything you said, you know, I agree with,
And that's it's true, is that it's not we don't
just have sex, like okay, now we're going to the
sex part so that the audience you know, has their
Phillip sex. It's very much a power dynamic between Hawk
and Tim and between Jelanny and Noah's character, Frank Frankie
(14:10):
and Marcus, and even at times like Alison and Alison
and Matt's characters. So it's all about power dynamics. It's
very authentic. It wasn't our intention ever to be salacious.
We want to just be authentic to the passion that
people would have again living at these times as I said,
when when it was you know, so sensitive and when
it could be ripped from you from any moments. So
(14:32):
you know, I think and I can speak to this
as like, you know, I'm sure any gay man or
woman can speak to this as like because you most
of us have grown up, you know, in the way
that we've grown up where we're not necessarily like loved
by our families, our religions, our government. Like when you
find someone that you love and you get to be
(14:52):
into with them, it's like incredibly it can be incredibly
passionate and vulnerable. So we wanted to make sure that
we to that and that we were authentic, and you know,
all of us discussed, but Matt and Johnny as well,
and all the actors, you know, they discussed how they
wanted to portray it, and they were very involved.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
So I think we all you know, found trust before we.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Started shooting, but while we were shooting, is like, Okay,
this is how we want to do this. And obviously
they were like if you look, you know, throughout the
whole entire projects for a lot of those people involved,
which I think was helpful to make sure that we
were on the same page and that we did something
that was different but shoot a story.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, seeing those dynamics played out is truly a treat
as a viewer, and I think it's really cool to
watch that unfold. And another relationship that's fantastic Marcus and Frankie.
You just brought them up. You have a black journalist
and a drag performer. What excited you about exploring that
relationship in those dynamics.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
I'm really excited to see or I was excited to see,
like especially at that time, like fighting for civil rights
and serigation, like for a black man to you know,
he walks out of his house, he's a black man
first for the most part. You know Frankie, maybe it's
a little different. Like I think maybe someone would see
Frankie and would get an idea maybe that Frankie was
you know gay. But for Marcus, you know, him dealing
(16:10):
with you know, being a black man first and fighting
for those rights and then also being a gay man
and struggling with that and also not being accepted in
his own community and dealing with his masculinity.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Like I just found that like really complex and interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
So you know, that love story told over multiple decades,
and like I wish we even had like more time
to get into that love story. It was just something
really like still to this day, Like, yeah, I like
would love to discuss more in a writer's room and
to deeper into that. So that was like just something
I hadn't seen before, and I know that was exciting
to Ron and all the writers and the directors also
(16:45):
like listening to Jelania and Noah talked how it was
for them coming out and you know, talking about like
their interest in that the historical aspect of that. So
they have an incredible story together that's you know, very
up and down. It's a roller coaster, much like Tim
and Hawk, but and really sexy. But I just I
really found that interesting. And also Marcus like being attracted
(17:06):
mostly usually to like very masculine men, but then finding
this like love in Frankie and in Frankie's like tenderness.
I just it was like so many dynamics, so interesting
to me. You know, it gets quite emotional, especially when
they like start to when they bring Jude into the
into the picture, which I found also another part of
(17:27):
their story.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
That was like very emotional.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Oh absolutely, I messaged Jelanie he's a friend, and I said, oh,
so damn proud of you. Like this character of this performance.
It blew me away. I think it's so everyone. But
he was so great in this role.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, he was incredible.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What do you hope people walk away with after they
watched this series, especially in the community and outside of
the community. Are they different messages for each group of people?
Is it the same message?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I mean? I hope it's the same message. I hope
people are like thoroughly entertained, Like this is entertainment.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
This isn't a you know, a history lesson, although it's
set like important moments in history. I want people that
are like, wow, that was really really entertaining, you know,
and that they were thrilled by it, that they felt
the tension.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
But more than anything, I just hope that they're like, wow.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
That was an epic love story. That was an epic
love story, and now I am finished and I have
no more emotions left, because that's how I felt working
on it.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
That's how I felt, you know, at the end of
different episodes.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
But definitely, you know, rolling credits in episode eight, I
was like crying out loud, like just even watching the
director's cut.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So I hope people feel that same emotion, you.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Know, regardless of being gay or straight or you know, However,
people identify like I just I hope that they have
that same feeling that I did, you know, discussing this
project with Ron and then met and then everyone involved,
and then seeing the final cuts, like I really am
proud of it, and I hope that's how people feel
when they see it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Well, it's total escapism, and I don't care what walk
of life you come from. I think it's just a
beautiful love story and entertaining, like you said, and it's
told in all the decades, which makes it really fun
to go through each one. I kind of love this
more and I think you guys should be so proud
of what you created. It's really it's really something special,
and we need more quality material like this. I'm not
(19:19):
knocking anything that's come out in the past, but I
crave content like this, and I think it's so refreshing.
We finally have it, you know, right right right yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I someone asked me like, where does this fall in
the landscape of like LGBT content, And I was like, well,
it's interesting you say that, you know, I haven't ever
really thought of that. And it feels like, you know,
we're lucky to live in time that we have like more
diverse content in terms of like genres, you know, like Red, White,
Roll Blue came out, like heart Stoppers is obviously the
Andrew Hague movie that I'm excited to see. And so
(19:49):
I'm excited now that like and the l word like
like there's a lot of different shows out they're and
I'm excited for fellow chowders to be part of that
and to be a different part of that. But I agree,
I think it's like we need more content like this
that's you know, very elevated and just more content in general,
you know. So I'm excited to be part of the
(20:10):
you know, LGB content, but to be you know, everyone
did such an incredible job, so this is very elevated,
very well done. So like I know, I'm glad you've
said it, but we are, we are very we are.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Very proud of it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Well, yeah you should be.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
And I know that you personally really connect to this
type of content, especially with your background and your story,
which is fascinating. In twenty thirteen, I believe you came
out as gay right as a professional soccer player, and
then you quit and then you came back to it,
and it was pretty revolutionary because not.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I don't think any professional athletes at that time had
or maybe a couple.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I might be incorrect, but maybe if any a couple,
but barely any. And there you were, just coming out
and living in your truth. You have to talk to
me for a minute about that moment because I think
it's such a pivot, little part of your journey. And
I think it's also a reason why you and correct
me if I'm wrong, but why you gravitate towards this
type of material as well.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
I don't know if you know Scott Berg, he's a
really great writer, historical writer, Poultry Prize when he's a
friend of mine. He after watched the pilot, you know,
he'd seen My Policeman and he knows as the material
that I'm interested in, and he's like, we have to
have a larger discussion of why you're so drawn to.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Know this these periods and these love stories.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
And I think it's and I don't at all want
to compare because like again very different, you know when
we talk about you know, the life and dest situations
of gay men and women during these different times in
our history, Like it's it's very severe. So I don't
want to say that, like that was my experience in sports.
(21:51):
But in sports, I played around the world, played here
in Maryland, went to Olympics with Finash team, and I
just the amount of homophobia and the amount of just
homophobic things that I heard on daily basis just really
scared the crap out of me and really made me
feel like I wasn't welcome and that I couldn't be
who I was. And and that's why when I.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Came out, I retired, I was like, I'm not going
to be part of this world.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
It wasn't until after that that you know a lot
of those same people reached out to me and I felt,
you know, enough support and I kind of found the
courage and myself to go back. But I just it
was a world that you know, I wasn't around during
the fifties, but it felt like you could be purged
from a sport or a job that you had, you know,
loved since.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
You were five years old. Like it was very, very,
very toxic. And that's why there aren't many of us.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
You know, there's a handful of gay male athletes in
the entire world, justin Fashnu who was you know, the
only gay soccer gay footballer soccer player to come out
and playing in the Premier League like killed himself.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
So it's obviously, I don't know, it's a world that
has has.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Become more accepting and is not as homophobic, but still
there are no gay soccer players footballers in like any
of Europe's top top leagues. I think in America's top league,
never that played the national team or you know, I
think I'm the only you know Olympian that's played, you
know out Olympian that's played, and I was closed at
the time. So it's it is, you know, it's a
(23:27):
scary world and very homophobic, and I experienced all that.
So I I think I'm attracted to these love stories
where there is so much oppression because, as I said earlier,
like just the stakes are so high for these people
and they feel, I think, inside so unloved by so
many people. So to find someone that loves them, it's
(23:48):
just incredibly.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Emotional for me. And and so I.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Think I will always try not just you know, gay
love stories obviously, but always try to find stories that
where people are like outsiders, where they have you know,
enormous obstacles to overcome, you know, that kind of drives
me as a storyteller and as a producer. And I
really when I find those stories, become very passionate about
(24:13):
like how do we do this. I don't care if
I have a million those like I'm going to find
that one, yes, and so I will.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Continue to do that.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
You know, it's it's it's probably a larger conversation and
with my therapist as well, but you know, I do,
I do.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I am really driven and focus on finding the stories.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And I keep hearing you mentioned the word love, which
seems to be a theme for you. Is is that
something you've always wanted?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Have you?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Are you hopeless romantic? Did you imagine yourself married? Is
that something that was always important to you? Or it
just kind of happened for you?
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Well, I always wanted to, you know, find someone obviously
that I could love and be with for.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
The rest of my life.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
I don't know if I realized when I was younger
that I could like be married to a man, you know,
I didn't. You know, I had internal home momophobia obviously,
as I just mentioned a homophobia around me. So I
don't I think I was just trying to survive. If
I'm being honest, and I didn't ever know if that
would be a reality for me. But I think it's
(25:13):
just it was like the love that I didn't necessarily
have for myself, or that I didn't feel people had
for me. Like I was, I'm like searching for it
in stories, and you know, I'm lucky to find that
in Greg and in my my husband and my two kids,
and why I hate to be away from them, and
uh love experience. I really enjoy experiencing everything with them,
(25:34):
whether it's we're in Toronto producing something or whether we're
you know, at a parent in me class, Like I
love to do that stuff altogether, because you know, I didn't.
I don't think I thought I would have that when
I was younger. Now, when I was like sitting in
these locker rooms and people were saying, you know, the
most outrageous things.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
So you know, as we said earlier, I guess it
just reminds me how lucky we are.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
And you know, as we we tell stories about these
other periods and I'm the fifties, eighties, nineties or these
other places in the world, like it's just always so
great to remember, like ash gosh, like people have done
so much work so that I can be at a
parent and nee class that.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Jewish school in Los Angeles with my husband and kids.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, isn't that amazing? And I so relate to you
on that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I never was somebody who wanted to get married, so
I thought, But then I realized I thought that because
I never thought I deserve to. And here I am
almost eight years married to my husband, and it's one
of the things I treasure the most for all the
reasons that you talked about. And I love that you
and your husband Greg share your love on social media
and share moments with your family. And I know, of
(26:40):
course you keep things certain things to yourselves as well
as we do, but that's super important for us because
visibility matters, and I think that the more people can
see that dynamic, the more it becomes second nature.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
It's like, oh, that's just a normal couple. You know.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
We've talked about that, because it's just natural for me
to be like, oh, here's my husband.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
And kids, you know, just right, any couple. But then
sometimes we're like, oh, should we not do that? Should
we be careful?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
You know?
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Are we like is there any kind of like safety,
Like we all these strange things that go through our heads.
But it is important, I think for you and your husband,
for myself and Greg, like we we do hear from
a lot of people that it's like, oh, it's it's
so nice to see you and your kids on social media.
Of course, there's a lot of stuff that we keep
riving and you know where we are, what we're doing.
(27:29):
But you know, it's funny. We've had those those conversations
which again like feel a little silly. It feels like,
you know, like any like my brothers and sisters who
share their lives on social media, their kids and their
their loved ones, like we should do the same.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
But you know it, it is true.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
It means I think it means a little bit more
to people around the world because against social media is
obviously an international thing, and as we said, Earl, there's
a lot of places where people aren't lucky like you
and I.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
And so I think it's important, I guess is the
way I never I don't like these we're important. I don't.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Sometimes feels a little strange to me, but it is
a necessary thing I think times for us to share
these things.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, it is, and it's one of the many reasons why.
And I'm super excited that you're on today because the
Out one hundred list is coming out and I know
you were chosen for that, which is a huge honor
and it honors, you know, trail blazers in the community
doing awesome things. I was selected this year too, and
I'm like, is that a mistake? Like, so, it's such
(28:27):
an honor because you never imagined something like that happening
when you're young in closet and you're like, wow, I'm
actually being recognized for that, and there's so many reasons
why you are you're being recognized. So for you, what
does that honor mean? Is that something you even thought
was imaginable when you were younger?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
No, No, I especially when I talk about my experience
as a soccer player and like an out soccer player,
and then like people using the word, you know, role
model around that, Like I came out because I was
so unhappy and I needed to I need to remove
myself from that world and I needed to change my life.
(29:03):
Like it wasn't I didn't have any intention to be
a role model to help people to you know, inspire
young soccer players to come out and continue to play,
Like that wasn't my mission. It was really to like
survive and to find to change my life where I
could find happiness.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
So I didn't know what the out one hundred was then,
but like, I.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Guess it makes me feel and I I think it
was like, you know, your last question of the segment.
So I don't want to get too far ahead, but
like it makes me just look back and be like, oh,
I'm really proud of what I've overcome, and I'm not
good at that. I'm not good at being you know,
being still for a moment and being like, oh, this
was really hard, and I'm proud that I've overcome this
(29:46):
and that, you know, young people can go on social
media and see my husband and kids and be like, oh,
I want a life like that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Like that's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
So, you know, being on the out one hundred lists
and seeing also all the incredible people that are.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
On that list to be name with them is.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Really something I never imagined and thought was possible, especially
as I was like a young closet soccer player, you know,
or football or like you.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Know, sitting in Holland or wherever I was at the time.
So it's it's really.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Incredible and it's it's an honor, and you know, it's
special for me. And one day, like when our kids
are a little bit older and I see that, like,
I think that will also be really cool to discuss
with them.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Absolutely, And you're right, it's hard to relish in your
accomplishments and achievements and honors, and admittedly I'm terrible at
that too, But I hope you're going to take some
time to soak this one in because it is a
big deal and it's making a difference for many people
out there, which I think is so important, which leads
to the final question of this interview. The show is
called I've never said this before. You have been wonderfully
(30:47):
open and gracious and sharing your life experiences today, but
I'm wondering if there is anything else that you've never
said before that you could share today.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, yeah, I was.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
I told you I'm in DC right now, University of Maryland,
And so I was just on the airplane yesterday, you know,
going through the emails and you know, just preparing for
this for your podcast. And I know I said it
earlier on you know, I don't know thirty seconds ago
or a minute ago, but I was like, oh, what,
you know, like say something funny, but I'm not very funny.
(31:17):
I could say, you know something, I was like, oh,
then I sound like I'll be a millennial.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
But you know, there's there's one thing that I and
I said, I'm not good at at.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Admitting and I am always going from thing to thing,
and usually it's my husband that kind of stops me,
and usually in the kitchen in the morning when I'm
having coffee and he kind of looks at me, He's like,
I'm really proud of you, and you know, and I
usually like you turn away from that and smile, but
like feel sometimes like insecure about that, and you know,
it's something obviously I need to work on. But I
(31:47):
would say, you know to everyone listening, like I'm really proud,
especially being here at the University of Maryland and like
remembering who I was and where I was at this
moment in my life. So I'm really just proud of
what I have accomplished, we've overcome, really proud of my family.
And I'm sure there are a lot of your listeners
who don't say that enough about everything that they've accomplished
(32:10):
and what they've overcome and who they are. And so
in the least patronizing way, and I'm really not great
at giving advice. I would just you know, I would
say we should all kind of embrace that word more
and and you know, say to ourselves more often. But
I am really proud of my life and and you
(32:31):
know how my story has been used in ways that
again I had no intention. You know, it's really I'm
very lucky.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I'm very lucky. So I'm proud of all of that.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
And I believe it looking at you, I believe that
you're proud of that. It's one thing to say it.
I think I see it in your eyes, and you
do have so much to be proud of. Like I said,
this series is just wonderful. This is I hope not
the end, and maybe in anthology will be happening.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
We've discussed it, you know, it's you've discussed different versions
of what would the next season be, so we'll see.
But yeah, I mean, there's there's so many rich stories
to take from this and different periods and ways to go.
But because it's so well executed, I think you could
you could definitely do a second season.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Well, it's Halloween week, which means I know you all
are going out to Halloween parties that are listening, But
when you're done, take some time watch this mini series.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
It is so fantastic. It is out now.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
It is everything and more that you would want in
a mini series. And like I said, it's it's equal
parts powerful but entertaining, and I think that's what's so magical.
Anybody from any walk of life can enjoy this. So congratulations.
It is absolutely fantastic. And if you are at the
at one hundred party in La maybe I'll.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
See you there.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
All righty, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Thank your congrats again, be well, I've never said this before.
It is hosted by me, Tommy Diderio. This podcast is
executive produced by Andrew Please see at iHeartRadio and by me,
Tommy I've never said this before. It is part of
the Elvis de Ram podcast network on iHeart Podcasts. For more,
(34:09):
rate review and subscribe to our show and if you
liked the episode, tell your friends.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Until next time.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I'm Tommy de Dario and I hope this show encourages
you to say something that you've never said before.
Hey guys, welcome to I've never said this before with
me Tommy di Dario. Today's guest is the inspiring Robbie Rogers,
the accomplished TV producer behind so many fan favorite projects,
including what will surely become a fan favorite, the upcoming
series Fellow Travelers. This is one of the most highly
(00:24):
anticipated shows of the year, and for good reason. It
is absolutely brilliant. So Fellow Travelers is an epic LGBTQ
plus love story and political thriller chronicling the volatile romance
of two very different men who meet in the fifties
in McCarthy era Washington, which is one of the darkest
periods in American history, and they continue to face obstacles
(00:48):
in the world and in themselves throughout a period of
four different decades, from the fifties all the way through
the eighties. Matt Omer and Jonathan Bailey they lead the
series beautifully, along with the cast of characters that will justugh,
they'll just pull at your heart strings. And that is
the magic of Robbie man. Through his work, you feel
(01:09):
transported back in time to every decade on display in
Fellow Travelers, and you feel so deeply when watching the series,
and on a personal note, to see a show like
this being made.
Speaker 2 (01:20):
It gives me hope.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
It gives me hope for more inclusive quality content in
the future. And it's a show for everybody. It's a
show for anybody who has a heart, and I know
that's you listening. So today we're gonna dive into the
incredible series. We're also going to dive into many other topics,
like Robbie coming out as one of the very first
professional gay athletes. We're going to talk about how he's
(01:43):
learned to become proud of the person who he is
today and.
Speaker 2 (01:47):
So much more.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
So, let's see if today we can get Robbie to
say something that he's never said before. Robbie Rogers, how
are you today?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
Good? It's good. It's good to be here, Tommy.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Thanks for having Oh I'm so psyched to have you on.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
Good God.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
We're going to dive into your miniseries Fellow Travelers today,
which is so good. It's it's everything and more that
I would want in terms of content for the LGBTQ
plus community and beyond. It's it's just this incredibly powerful
love story, this thrilling political story, all the things there's
twisters turns, there's raw, real emotion. It's so fantastic. So
(02:28):
for everybody listening, why don't you set up this amazing
beautiful series.
Speaker 3 (02:34):
Sure?
Speaker 4 (02:35):
Sure, Well, first, it's it's really nice to hear that
we shout it about a year ago. So all of
like the battle scars of being in Toronto during you know,
the fall winter are still like very fresh from my mind.
So all that that work we put into it, it's
just really nice that people are starting to see it
and be able.
Speaker 3 (02:53):
To talk about it now. So thank you so much,
Fellow Travelers.
Speaker 4 (02:56):
Based off of Thomas mallan novel set in the Labyr
SCHAREDU McCarthy era, like the Red Scare in the fifties,
and you know what we've taken from that, you know,
it starts Levender Scare, and it touches a little bit
on these two guys that fell in love and like
the mystery behind their love story in the book, it
touches you know, the fifties and the eighties, but we
Ron and I and the writers and everyone involved have
(03:17):
expanded that. So the mini series is their love story
told over like multiple decades, the fifties, the sixties, Fire
Island in the seventies or just one of my favorite episodes,
and then obviously the eighties where they kind of you know,
reconnect as older men. But it's also like this political
it's you know, it's it's lace or it's kind of
intertwined with this political thriller.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
You know.
Speaker 4 (03:36):
Obviously, as I said, it's set in the fifties with McCarthy,
so it's it's the story of their interactions with him
and them trying to kind of take him down and
trying to.
Speaker 3 (03:45):
Survive in that era when you know, gay men and women.
Speaker 4 (03:48):
Were being purged from the government and and just banned
from you know, political life.
Speaker 3 (03:53):
So I'm really proud of it. I'm really excited. Like
you said, it's got a lot of different access points.
Speaker 4 (03:57):
You know. Obviously, the love story is really it's core,
but for people who love you know, political thrillers, political.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
And dramas, it really is part for those people as well.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
And the series centers on quite a terrifying time or times,
I should say, in America. Four queer people. So why
was this an important story for you to tell?
Speaker 3 (04:17):
I When I first pictured the Saron, I were working
on my Police from the Other and he sent me
kind of I think a box of or maybe it
was like two or three.
Speaker 4 (04:24):
Books, and I picked it up and I finished over
a week, and I didn't know. I didn't know anything
without the Lavender Scare, so I knew what the red
scare was, you know, a SEALESVT. Folks, we don't learn
really about our history in school unfortunately. So I was
kind of a love story set at a time and
a place when the stakes are like so high. I was,
you know, I don't think obsessed is the right word,
(04:45):
but I couldn't put the book down. And I think
for a lot of gay people in general, it's like
when you find someone that you love, you like hold
them a little bit more closely, and your time with
them is a little bit more precious because especially at
that time or you know, I don't know, know it
could say even now, it could be ripped away from
you at any moment, you know, especially then you know, sixties, seventies, eighties, nineties,
(05:05):
you know where it was really life or death, or
as I said, you could be in a perching the government.
Speaker 3 (05:10):
It's like those those love stories.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
The stakes are so high because you could lose it
at any second, and so to tell us a love
story during that time, I was like, Ah, it's just
you know, it's an incredible story. But it's also, i think,
really great entertainment as you've seen.
Speaker 2 (05:23):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
No, it's super entertaining and it's super important and powerful,
which is why I love it. And I think, oh,
I think sometimes we forget as a society how far
we've come. And it's very easy to take things for
granted that we have today. And yes, there are fights
that are still needing to be fought. Of course, there's
a lot more work that needs to be done, but
there's so much work that was done by the people
who have come before us. I'm a millennial and I
(05:47):
never want to stop learning about my past and the
history and the LGBTU plus community. And sometimes I feel
like the younger generations who I love, they don't always
understand what people have gone through to get us to
where we are today.
Speaker 2 (05:59):
You know, Tommy, I.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Totally agree with you, I think, and not to be
like patronizing or condescending to anyone.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
Really have come like such a long way.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
And benefit from so much that has been you know,
done and accomplished and fought for, you know, before us.
So you know, I'm married and I have kids and
live a life with a lot of privileges, and so
our history and these books and these stories are are
really powerful and I you know, as I said, it's entertainment,
but it's still it's important for people.
Speaker 3 (06:29):
To just be reminded of and to be you know, educated.
Speaker 4 (06:32):
So I one hundred percent agree with you, And I
laugh because I know, yes, us millennials and people below
younger than us, sometimes we all think that we know
everything about the world.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
But as we like delve into history and also see
how relevant it is.
Speaker 4 (06:44):
Or you know, take things that we can learn and
learn about these stories, it's just, you know, it's really
rich storytelling and it's I think it's great for us
to just always be aware.
Speaker 3 (06:53):
Of the past.
Speaker 1 (06:54):
Oh yeah, and the cast brings the story to life
in such a magnificent way. Let's let's start with you know,
the romantic story, right, Jonathan Bailey and Matt Bahmer and
this series are phenomenal, phenomenal, phenomenal. What made them the
right choices for you to tell the story?
Speaker 4 (07:11):
I've known Matt now for a while and as you've seen,
Hawk is a character that you know on the surface
is incredibly beautiful and you can and very confident and surefooted,
and I thought Matt really presents as someone like that.
Speaker 3 (07:29):
But also there's so many.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
Layers to him as a person and so many layers
to him as an actor, and so as you see
as the series progresses and as Hawk changes, I just
knew instinctually and just knowing Matt that he could deliver,
you know, and that he would be just the perfect
guy for it, which.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
He really is.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
I Mean, I've loved him as an actor for a
long time, but I think this is just such a
special role for him, and his performance was is incredible,
and the work that he put in was really remarkable.
I mean just watching him, you know, every day set
and you know his preparation over the weekend, like he's
always a workaholic and takes things very seriously.
Speaker 3 (08:05):
But it's just it was it was pretty remarkable and
inspiring to see him take this role on.
Speaker 4 (08:10):
And then Jonathan Bailey I knew because we Michael Branch
introduced me to him when we were auditioning people for
My Policeman, and you know, everyone knows Jonathan from Bridgerton,
which is like he's a sexy British guy.
Speaker 3 (08:23):
But I having that conversation with Johnny over, you.
Speaker 4 (08:26):
Know, my policeman for a very different part, I could
see the innocence and the youthfulness and the idealism in him.
Speaker 3 (08:35):
And so when we.
Speaker 4 (08:36):
Started to talk about who Tim would be, you know,
I thought that he could be just a really incredible
Tim and he's an incredible actor. And their chemistry is,
you know, until you really see them in a room together,
you're not sure. But we had a little chemistry read
for showtime and for Freemantle, and and I would think
it was within seconds that people were just like, Okay,
(08:57):
we're good, Like we got this very exciting.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
So they and the.
Speaker 4 (09:01):
Rest of the cast, Jeannie and Noah and Aaron and
Alicon like there's well, like we got so lucky.
Speaker 3 (09:08):
And they were so professional, all of them. So you know,
we're thrilled with how it all turned out.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Yeah, the performances were fantastic and the content, the scenes, well,
there are so many powerful ones throughout the series. I'm
curious to know if for you there was a scene
or a historical era that you really you really stayed
with that time period or that particular scene after you
were done filming it.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
There's so many different scenes.
Speaker 4 (09:31):
It's really hard to choose because I think, like you,
you know, as we look back at like like I
wasn't part of fire Island in the seventies, which seems like, wow,
that's crazy and a lot of fun, and like that
doesn't exist anymore. Like there's obviously different versions of what
Fireland is now. But there's a lot that I in
the show that I kind of wish I could have
(09:51):
experienced in some way or or want to know more about.
But I would say there is a moment, and I
don't want to spoil anything, but there's a moment of
the guys in the show where they're dancing and they're
completely naked, and I remember being on set and I.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
Was behind the monitor and I just start crying.
Speaker 4 (10:08):
And I was like, gosh, for people at this time,
you know, this is in the fifties, That was in
the fifties, and I think fifty six or for people
at that time to be hiding in their apartments or
in their homes and to be in this room and
to be into it with each other and vulnerable and
naked and dancing together while like the world outside like
hates them and wants them, you know, purging their jobs.
(10:30):
And I'm assuming, like, you know, I don't think it
would be go going too far to say, you know,
like just removed from the country or from you know, society,
to like hold each other that closely and to be
able to have this moment and to love each other.
I just I found it incredibly emotional. And I remember
like going up to Matt and Johnny or maybe even both,
like after they had their clothes on, and just being like, gosh,
(10:53):
it's just so beautiful and not in like a in
the way, you know.
Speaker 3 (10:56):
When I read this in the script, I was like, Oh,
this is gonna be really sexy. Blah blah blah. It
was just so emotional for me.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
And so I remember that feeling being on set at
like you know, I don't know, three or four of
the morning in Toronto and kind of and just crying
because I just found it really beautiful. So there's quite
a few moments like that in the show that I
that I remember, you know, vividly, but I would say
that was the one that I that always like comes
back to me and when I see it.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
When I was when we were editing the episodes, or
when I've rewatched it, I have that super feeling.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
Well, And I think that scene and many other scenes
are why this series is so revolutionary, even in twenty
twenty three, because we come very close to having history
repeating itself many times, right, and it's not that foreign
of a concept that it could. So I think that's
why the series and showing moments like that when you
say it made you emotional, knowing how safe and protected
(11:49):
they were in that apartment dancing naked because they couldn't
do that in the outside world and be who they are.
It's so meaning and moving, moving because it is something
that you know, you just you hope we never have
to ever live through again, right of.
Speaker 4 (12:02):
Course, and you know we made in Toronto, and most
of us are Americans that we're in this production, but
we take it for granted a little bit living in
the United States that we have like these freedoms. I
think it's important to remind you, like this is an
international show. I know it's on Pairmount plus around and
show them around the world, and you know, there's many
countries where you couldn't even have the freedom to show
(12:23):
a show like this, to watch a show like this,
So it still really exists, and like you said, you know,
as we've learned over the last few years as well,
like it's very fragile state of LGBT politics in different states.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
So it's not you know, I live in Los Angeles
with my family, and so I'm very, very privileged and
i have a lot of benefits there, but it's not
the same for everyone around the United States and around
the world.
Speaker 1 (12:44):
Yeah, that's an important message worth sharing. And again another
reason why the series is so meaningful and will be
so meaningful to so many people. Something that I really
thought was cool in this series is how sexy it was,
but not in the way that you might think.
Speaker 2 (12:58):
It wasn't salacious.
Speaker 1 (13:00):
It was the sex scenes had reason, they had power,
dynamics they had they were advancing the storytelling. And I
find in a lot of content and shows and movies
that are LGBTQ plus tailored, the love scenes are just
watered down or they're just so incorrect. It's like, that's
not how it works, And it's just disappointing because it's
(13:21):
like this rated rated, rated GGG version of it. But
you guys go there, you guys show it, you guys
explore it and I think that's a really important thing
to show people. So was that something you were very
conscious of when you were part of this project.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
We were you know, Ron has a rule in the
writer's room about like any scene like if it isn't
really making you turn the page or like push the
story forward, then like you know, we're throwing it away,
and it's pretty harsh about it.
Speaker 4 (13:47):
So I would say the same with like the sex scenes,
and like everything you said, you know, I agree with,
And that's it's true, is that it's not we don't
just have sex, like okay, now we're going to the
sex part so that the audience you know, has their
Phillip sex. It's very much a power dynamic between Hawk
and Tim and between Jelanny and Noah's character, Frank Frankie
(14:10):
and Marcus, and even at times like Alison and Alison
and Matt's characters. So it's all about power dynamics. It's
very authentic. It wasn't our intention ever to be salacious.
We want to just be authentic to the passion that
people would have again living at these times as I said,
when when it was you know, so sensitive and when
it could be ripped from you from any moments. So
(14:32):
you know, I think and I can speak to this
as like, you know, I'm sure any gay man or
woman can speak to this as like because you most
of us have grown up, you know, in the way
that we've grown up where we're not necessarily like loved
by our families, our religions, our government. Like when you
find someone that you love and you get to be
(14:52):
into with them, it's like incredibly it can be incredibly
passionate and vulnerable. So we wanted to make sure that
we to that and that we were authentic, and you know,
all of us discussed, but Matt and Johnny as well,
and all the actors, you know, they discussed how they
wanted to portray it, and they were very involved.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
So I think we all you know, found trust before we.
Speaker 4 (15:16):
Started shooting, but while we were shooting, is like, Okay,
this is how we want to do this. And obviously
they were like if you look, you know, throughout the
whole entire projects for a lot of those people involved,
which I think was helpful to make sure that we
were on the same page and that we did something
that was different but shoot a story.
Speaker 1 (15:31):
Yeah, seeing those dynamics played out is truly a treat
as a viewer, and I think it's really cool to
watch that unfold. And another relationship that's fantastic Marcus and Frankie.
You just brought them up. You have a black journalist
and a drag performer. What excited you about exploring that
relationship in those dynamics.
Speaker 4 (15:48):
I'm really excited to see or I was excited to see,
like especially at that time, like fighting for civil rights
and serigation, like for a black man to you know,
he walks out of his house, he's a black man
first for the most part. You know Frankie, maybe it's
a little different. Like I think maybe someone would see
Frankie and would get an idea maybe that Frankie was
you know gay. But for Marcus, you know, him dealing
(16:10):
with you know, being a black man first and fighting
for those rights and then also being a gay man
and struggling with that and also not being accepted in
his own community and dealing with his masculinity.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Like I just found that like really complex and interesting.
Speaker 4 (16:23):
So you know, that love story told over multiple decades,
and like I wish we even had like more time
to get into that love story. It was just something
really like still to this day, Like, yeah, I like
would love to discuss more in a writer's room and
to deeper into that. So that was like just something
I hadn't seen before, and I know that was exciting
to Ron and all the writers and the directors also
(16:45):
like listening to Jelania and Noah talked how it was
for them coming out and you know, talking about like
their interest in that the historical aspect of that. So
they have an incredible story together that's you know, very
up and down. It's a roller coaster, much like Tim
and Hawk, but and really sexy. But I just I
really found that interesting. And also Marcus like being attracted
(17:06):
mostly usually to like very masculine men, but then finding
this like love in Frankie and in Frankie's like tenderness.
I just it was like so many dynamics, so interesting
to me. You know, it gets quite emotional, especially when
they like start to when they bring Jude into the
into the picture, which I found also another part of
(17:27):
their story.
Speaker 3 (17:27):
That was like very emotional.
Speaker 1 (17:29):
Oh absolutely, I messaged Jelanie he's a friend, and I said, oh,
so damn proud of you. Like this character of this performance.
It blew me away. I think it's so everyone. But
he was so great in this role.
Speaker 3 (17:41):
Yeah, he was incredible.
Speaker 2 (17:42):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
What do you hope people walk away with after they
watched this series, especially in the community and outside of
the community. Are they different messages for each group of people?
Is it the same message?
Speaker 2 (17:55):
What do you think?
Speaker 3 (17:57):
I mean? I hope it's the same message. I hope
people are like thoroughly entertained, Like this is entertainment.
Speaker 4 (18:03):
This isn't a you know, a history lesson, although it's
set like important moments in history. I want people that
are like, wow, that was really really entertaining, you know,
and that they were thrilled by it, that they felt
the tension.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
But more than anything, I just hope that they're like, wow.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
That was an epic love story. That was an epic
love story, and now I am finished and I have
no more emotions left, because that's how I felt working
on it.
Speaker 3 (18:26):
That's how I felt, you know, at the end of
different episodes.
Speaker 4 (18:29):
But definitely, you know, rolling credits in episode eight, I
was like crying out loud, like just even watching the
director's cut.
Speaker 3 (18:37):
So I hope people feel that same emotion, you.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
Know, regardless of being gay or straight or you know, However,
people identify like I just I hope that they have
that same feeling that I did, you know, discussing this
project with Ron and then met and then everyone involved,
and then seeing the final cuts, like I really am
proud of it, and I hope that's how people feel
when they see it.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Well, it's total escapism, and I don't care what walk
of life you come from. I think it's just a
beautiful love story and entertaining, like you said, and it's
told in all the decades, which makes it really fun
to go through each one. I kind of love this
more and I think you guys should be so proud
of what you created. It's really it's really something special,
and we need more quality material like this. I'm not
(19:19):
knocking anything that's come out in the past, but I
crave content like this, and I think it's so refreshing.
We finally have it, you know, right right right yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:28):
I someone asked me like, where does this fall in
the landscape of like LGBT content, And I was like, well,
it's interesting you say that, you know, I haven't ever
really thought of that. And it feels like, you know,
we're lucky to live in time that we have like more
diverse content in terms of like genres, you know, like Red, White,
Roll Blue came out, like heart Stoppers is obviously the
Andrew Hague movie that I'm excited to see. And so
(19:49):
I'm excited now that like and the l word like
like there's a lot of different shows out they're and
I'm excited for fellow chowders to be part of that
and to be a different part of that. But I agree,
I think it's like we need more content like this
that's you know, very elevated and just more content in general,
you know. So I'm excited to be part of the
(20:10):
you know, LGB content, but to be you know, everyone
did such an incredible job, so this is very elevated,
very well done. So like I know, I'm glad you've
said it, but we are, we are very we are.
Speaker 3 (20:22):
Very proud of it.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
Well, yeah you should be.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
And I know that you personally really connect to this
type of content, especially with your background and your story,
which is fascinating. In twenty thirteen, I believe you came
out as gay right as a professional soccer player, and
then you quit and then you came back to it,
and it was pretty revolutionary because not.
Speaker 2 (20:42):
I don't think any professional athletes at that time had
or maybe a couple.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
I might be incorrect, but maybe if any a couple,
but barely any. And there you were, just coming out
and living in your truth. You have to talk to
me for a minute about that moment because I think
it's such a pivot, little part of your journey. And
I think it's also a reason why you and correct
me if I'm wrong, but why you gravitate towards this
type of material as well.
Speaker 3 (21:09):
Yeah, it is.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
I don't know if you know Scott Berg, he's a
really great writer, historical writer, Poultry Prize when he's a
friend of mine. He after watched the pilot, you know,
he'd seen My Policeman and he knows as the material
that I'm interested in, and he's like, we have to
have a larger discussion of why you're so drawn to.
Speaker 3 (21:28):
Know this these periods and these love stories.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
And I think it's and I don't at all want
to compare because like again very different, you know when
we talk about you know, the life and dest situations
of gay men and women during these different times in
our history, Like it's it's very severe. So I don't
want to say that, like that was my experience in sports.
(21:51):
But in sports, I played around the world, played here
in Maryland, went to Olympics with Finash team, and I
just the amount of homophobia and the amount of just
homophobic things that I heard on daily basis just really
scared the crap out of me and really made me
feel like I wasn't welcome and that I couldn't be
who I was. And and that's why when I.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
Came out, I retired, I was like, I'm not going
to be part of this world.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
It wasn't until after that that you know a lot
of those same people reached out to me and I felt,
you know, enough support and I kind of found the
courage and myself to go back. But I just it
was a world that you know, I wasn't around during
the fifties, but it felt like you could be purged
from a sport or a job that you had, you know,
loved since.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
You were five years old. Like it was very, very,
very toxic. And that's why there aren't many of us.
Speaker 4 (22:45):
You know, there's a handful of gay male athletes in
the entire world, justin Fashnu who was you know, the
only gay soccer gay footballer soccer player to come out
and playing in the Premier League like killed himself.
Speaker 3 (22:58):
So it's obviously, I don't know, it's a world that
has has.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
Become more accepting and is not as homophobic, but still
there are no gay soccer players footballers in like any
of Europe's top top leagues. I think in America's top league,
never that played the national team or you know, I
think I'm the only you know Olympian that's played, you
know out Olympian that's played, and I was closed at
the time. So it's it is, you know, it's a
(23:27):
scary world and very homophobic, and I experienced all that.
So I I think I'm attracted to these love stories
where there is so much oppression because, as I said earlier,
like just the stakes are so high for these people
and they feel, I think, inside so unloved by so
many people. So to find someone that loves them, it's
(23:48):
just incredibly.
Speaker 3 (23:49):
Emotional for me. And and so I.
Speaker 4 (23:52):
Think I will always try not just you know, gay
love stories obviously, but always try to find stories that
where people are like outsiders, where they have you know,
enormous obstacles to overcome, you know, that kind of drives
me as a storyteller and as a producer. And I
really when I find those stories, become very passionate about
(24:13):
like how do we do this. I don't care if
I have a million those like I'm going to find
that one, yes, and so I will.
Speaker 3 (24:21):
Continue to do that.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
You know, it's it's it's probably a larger conversation and
with my therapist as well, but you know, I do,
I do.
Speaker 3 (24:29):
I am really driven and focus on finding the stories.
Speaker 1 (24:32):
And I keep hearing you mentioned the word love, which
seems to be a theme for you. Is is that
something you've always wanted?
Speaker 2 (24:39):
Have you?
Speaker 1 (24:39):
Are you hopeless romantic? Did you imagine yourself married? Is
that something that was always important to you? Or it
just kind of happened for you?
Speaker 4 (24:46):
Well, I always wanted to, you know, find someone obviously
that I could love and be with for.
Speaker 3 (24:51):
The rest of my life.
Speaker 4 (24:52):
I don't know if I realized when I was younger
that I could like be married to a man, you know,
I didn't. You know, I had internal home momophobia obviously,
as I just mentioned a homophobia around me. So I
don't I think I was just trying to survive. If
I'm being honest, and I didn't ever know if that
would be a reality for me. But I think it's
(25:13):
just it was like the love that I didn't necessarily
have for myself, or that I didn't feel people had
for me. Like I was, I'm like searching for it
in stories, and you know, I'm lucky to find that
in Greg and in my my husband and my two kids,
and why I hate to be away from them, and
uh love experience. I really enjoy experiencing everything with them,
(25:34):
whether it's we're in Toronto producing something or whether we're
you know, at a parent in me class, Like I
love to do that stuff altogether, because you know, I didn't.
I don't think I thought I would have that when
I was younger. Now, when I was like sitting in
these locker rooms and people were saying, you know, the
most outrageous things.
Speaker 3 (25:51):
So you know, as we said earlier, I guess it
just reminds me how lucky we are.
Speaker 4 (25:56):
And you know, as we we tell stories about these
other periods and I'm the fifties, eighties, nineties or these
other places in the world, like it's just always so
great to remember, like ash gosh, like people have done
so much work so that I can be at a
parent and nee class that.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
Jewish school in Los Angeles with my husband and kids.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, isn't that amazing? And I so relate to you
on that.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
I never was somebody who wanted to get married, so
I thought, But then I realized I thought that because
I never thought I deserve to. And here I am
almost eight years married to my husband, and it's one
of the things I treasure the most for all the
reasons that you talked about. And I love that you
and your husband Greg share your love on social media
and share moments with your family. And I know, of
(26:40):
course you keep things certain things to yourselves as well
as we do, but that's super important for us because
visibility matters, and I think that the more people can
see that dynamic, the more it becomes second nature.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
It's like, oh, that's just a normal couple. You know.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
We've talked about that, because it's just natural for me
to be like, oh, here's my husband.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
And kids, you know, just right, any couple. But then
sometimes we're like, oh, should we not do that? Should
we be careful?
Speaker 2 (27:06):
You know?
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Are we like is there any kind of like safety,
Like we all these strange things that go through our heads.
But it is important, I think for you and your husband,
for myself and Greg, like we we do hear from
a lot of people that it's like, oh, it's it's
so nice to see you and your kids on social media.
Of course, there's a lot of stuff that we keep
riving and you know where we are, what we're doing.
(27:29):
But you know, it's funny. We've had those those conversations
which again like feel a little silly. It feels like,
you know, like any like my brothers and sisters who
share their lives on social media, their kids and their
their loved ones, like we should do the same.
Speaker 3 (27:42):
But you know it, it is true.
Speaker 4 (27:44):
It means I think it means a little bit more
to people around the world because against social media is
obviously an international thing, and as we said, Earl, there's
a lot of places where people aren't lucky like you
and I.
Speaker 3 (27:55):
And so I think it's important, I guess is the
way I never I don't like these we're important. I don't.
Speaker 4 (28:00):
Sometimes feels a little strange to me, but it is
a necessary thing I think times for us to share
these things.
Speaker 1 (28:06):
Yeah, it is, and it's one of the many reasons why.
And I'm super excited that you're on today because the
Out one hundred list is coming out and I know
you were chosen for that, which is a huge honor
and it honors, you know, trail blazers in the community
doing awesome things. I was selected this year too, and
I'm like, is that a mistake? Like, so, it's such
(28:27):
an honor because you never imagined something like that happening
when you're young in closet and you're like, wow, I'm
actually being recognized for that, and there's so many reasons
why you are you're being recognized. So for you, what
does that honor mean? Is that something you even thought
was imaginable when you were younger?
Speaker 4 (28:43):
No, No, I especially when I talk about my experience
as a soccer player and like an out soccer player,
and then like people using the word, you know, role
model around that, Like I came out because I was
so unhappy and I needed to I need to remove
myself from that world and I needed to change my life.
(29:03):
Like it wasn't I didn't have any intention to be
a role model to help people to you know, inspire
young soccer players to come out and continue to play,
Like that wasn't my mission. It was really to like
survive and to find to change my life where I
could find happiness.
Speaker 3 (29:20):
So I didn't know what the out one hundred was then,
but like, I.
Speaker 4 (29:26):
Guess it makes me feel and I I think it
was like, you know, your last question of the segment.
So I don't want to get too far ahead, but
like it makes me just look back and be like, oh,
I'm really proud of what I've overcome, and I'm not
good at that. I'm not good at being you know,
being still for a moment and being like, oh, this
was really hard, and I'm proud that I've overcome this
(29:46):
and that, you know, young people can go on social
media and see my husband and kids and be like, oh,
I want a life like that.
Speaker 3 (29:52):
Like that's pretty cool.
Speaker 4 (29:53):
So, you know, being on the out one hundred lists
and seeing also all the incredible people that are.
Speaker 3 (29:58):
On that list to be name with them is.
Speaker 4 (30:01):
Really something I never imagined and thought was possible, especially
as I was like a young closet soccer player, you know,
or football or like you.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Know, sitting in Holland or wherever I was at the time.
So it's it's really.
Speaker 4 (30:13):
Incredible and it's it's an honor, and you know, it's
special for me. And one day, like when our kids
are a little bit older and I see that, like,
I think that will also be really cool to discuss
with them.
Speaker 1 (30:24):
Absolutely, And you're right, it's hard to relish in your
accomplishments and achievements and honors, and admittedly I'm terrible at
that too, But I hope you're going to take some
time to soak this one in because it is a
big deal and it's making a difference for many people
out there, which I think is so important, which leads
to the final question of this interview. The show is
called I've never said this before. You have been wonderfully
(30:47):
open and gracious and sharing your life experiences today, but
I'm wondering if there is anything else that you've never
said before that you could share today.
Speaker 3 (30:55):
Yeah, yeah, I was.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
I told you I'm in DC right now, University of Maryland,
And so I was just on the airplane yesterday, you know,
going through the emails and you know, just preparing for
this for your podcast. And I know I said it
earlier on you know, I don't know thirty seconds ago
or a minute ago, but I was like, oh, what,
you know, like say something funny, but I'm not very funny.
(31:17):
I could say, you know something, I was like, oh,
then I sound like I'll be a millennial.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
But you know, there's there's one thing that I and
I said, I'm not good at at.
Speaker 4 (31:26):
Admitting and I am always going from thing to thing,
and usually it's my husband that kind of stops me,
and usually in the kitchen in the morning when I'm
having coffee and he kind of looks at me, He's like,
I'm really proud of you, and you know, and I
usually like you turn away from that and smile, but
like feel sometimes like insecure about that, and you know,
it's something obviously I need to work on. But I
(31:47):
would say, you know to everyone listening, like I'm really proud,
especially being here at the University of Maryland and like
remembering who I was and where I was at this
moment in my life. So I'm really just proud of
what I have accomplished, we've overcome, really proud of my family.
And I'm sure there are a lot of your listeners
who don't say that enough about everything that they've accomplished
(32:10):
and what they've overcome and who they are. And so
in the least patronizing way, and I'm really not great
at giving advice. I would just you know, I would
say we should all kind of embrace that word more
and and you know, say to ourselves more often. But
I am really proud of my life and and you
(32:31):
know how my story has been used in ways that
again I had no intention. You know, it's really I'm
very lucky.
Speaker 3 (32:37):
I'm very lucky. So I'm proud of all of that.
Speaker 1 (32:40):
And I believe it looking at you, I believe that
you're proud of that. It's one thing to say it.
I think I see it in your eyes, and you
do have so much to be proud of. Like I said,
this series is just wonderful. This is I hope not
the end, and maybe in anthology will be happening.
Speaker 4 (32:56):
We've discussed it, you know, it's you've discussed different versions
of what would the next season be, so we'll see.
But yeah, I mean, there's there's so many rich stories
to take from this and different periods and ways to go.
But because it's so well executed, I think you could
you could definitely do a second season.
Speaker 2 (33:16):
Amazing.
Speaker 1 (33:16):
Well, it's Halloween week, which means I know you all
are going out to Halloween parties that are listening, But
when you're done, take some time watch this mini series.
Speaker 2 (33:24):
It is so fantastic. It is out now.
Speaker 1 (33:27):
It is everything and more that you would want in
a mini series. And like I said, it's it's equal
parts powerful but entertaining, and I think that's what's so magical.
Anybody from any walk of life can enjoy this. So congratulations.
It is absolutely fantastic. And if you are at the
at one hundred party in La maybe I'll.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
See you there.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
All righty, thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Thank your congrats again, be well, I've never said this before.
It is hosted by me, Tommy Diderio. This podcast is
executive produced by Andrew Please see at iHeartRadio and by me,
Tommy I've never said this before. It is part of
the Elvis de Ram podcast network on iHeart Podcasts. For more,
(34:09):
rate review and subscribe to our show and if you
liked the episode, tell your friends.
Speaker 2 (34:15):
Until next time.
Speaker 1 (34:16):
I'm Tommy de Dario and I hope this show encourages
you to say something that you've never said before.
Host
Tommy DiDario
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.