December 9, 2020 • 48 mins
It’s about time we amplified the stories of Black women who are pioneers in the music industry. In this episode, Jill, Laiya, and Aja highlight some of these iconic artists and entrepreneurs – from Cathy Hughes to Valerie Simpson to Ma Rainey.
Resources mentioned in this episode:
The film Ma Rainey's Black Bottom
Any play by August Wilson
Millie Jackson, Labelle, Cathy Hughes, Valerie Simpson
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Jay dot Ill, a production of I Heart Radio.
(00:23):
Peace in Love y'all. Jill Scott presents Jay dot Ill
with my sister queens Age and I'm Jill Scott. Hello darling.
How are you. I'm feeling kind of spicy. I didn't
(00:46):
get a lot of sleep. Um. Working, working is good.
Working is good, especially when you love what you do.
But I'm a little you know, I could use the
belly rub and a good little nap, you know, yes,
come on, belly rug. Yes that that feels like m
(01:07):
it feels like it needed right thing to do. You
don't become an iconic woman in any industry, uh by
only taking naps all the time. The opposite, it's like
the opposite. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's quite the opposite. You
gotta put in a whole lot of work. You gotta
(01:27):
put a whole lot of guts, a whole lot of passion,
a whole lot of energy into what it is that
you do. Um. Oftentimes we talk about singers, and they're
singers with these beautiful voices. They could do anything with
the thing. And then they're singers, you know, like like
(01:48):
a Janis Choplin. If you will all guts and grits
and gristle and blood. And you know, my daddy called
it screaming and that too, and that too because sometimes
the scream is necessary. Sometimes it is necessary, just like
(02:08):
that work, just like that, that soul bearing portion of
the show, that that counts always as an artist, there
are entertainers and their artists entertainers. Um, this is my
opinion anyway. I think that entertainers entertained the people. You know,
they put on the show, they practice the moves, they
(02:30):
change the clothes and change the lights to do the thing.
And I love to be entertained. So it's not even
a thing. I'm not trying to dis anybody at all.
And then you've got these flat footed I don't know
what to call it, just the soul bearers that um,
that make a difference in your vision. You know, I'm
(02:55):
all over the place. But what I really want to
talk about is UM, iconic women in the music industry
for whatever reason, if it's because you know, they've been
an incredible entertainers. UM, like a Diana Ross, because I
I you know, she's the boss. Is the original? Yeah,
(03:16):
she's like the original. I was gonna say the original
be but then just in a sense of like singing
and acting and doing kids all TV shows and producing
and introducing new artists and introducing new artists. People don't
give her credit for that. Yeah, she definitely brought out
the Jackson Five, like the one of the biggest um
(03:37):
groups of all time. Um, you know, there's there's there's
a room full, there's a there's a mountainful of powerful
women in front and behind, in front and behind the scenes. Yes, ma'am,
(04:09):
talk about it. It's funny. You know. We talked about
having this conversation early earlier, and I was thinking of like,
who to you is iconic, And the person that came
to my mind is somebody who I've been following my
whole life as a radio girl. I actually worked for her.
I've actually been fired twice for her radio stations. And
yet and still I still think it's important to say
(04:31):
her name because she is one of a few. Actually,
she's the one and only. Her name is Kathi Hughes,
the only black woman who has multiple radio stations. At
some point, she had rail stations almost in every major city.
You know, that's now matriculated into not just the radio
station network but TV, but like and digital can you
(04:53):
imagine and digital can you imagine the battle? I mean,
actually you don't have to imagine the battle because you
see a small so it and talk to me with
don cheetah as they hint at Oh way, tell Joeper's
character is Dewey Hughes, her husband at the time. Yeah, yeah,
I mean for those of us who grew up in Washington,
(05:14):
d C. We remember, you know, w h O l
um when we were middle yeah, right, and when we
were little and they would be in a trailer right
over there off of a street, and you could actually
drive by and see Cathy Hughes doing Sunday Morning Joy
(05:36):
on Sundays. You could drive by and see her host
in the Gospel music show or every Sunday and not
knowing and understanding obviously not foreseeing, but even then understanding
that she was putting the platform and the pavers down
was gonna become such an iconic businesswoman, you know. And
(05:56):
she's played every role in radio. You know, to to
watch a man as a little girl be a radio
personality and then a sin to where she has now
is like and may I add, may I add Asia
a hell of black lady. It's in the sense of
what she said out of her mother. This is a
woman who had a morning show every day with Dick Gregg. Okay, okay,
(06:17):
but yeah, and and own radio stations. She that's it's
black and said, you can't get no black up. You're like,
and I'm still going to work. That's black. That's black.
That's a beautiful thing. Yes, yes, yes, if you just
you know, if you missed part of this, we were
talking about Kathy Hughes. Goodness, that's you need to know
(06:38):
the name. I mean, you shouldn't know the name. If
if you know, you know, for for for the Oprah Whimpley's,
there are the Kathrey that Cathy uses of the world.
It's only one though, still only Oh yeah, the first
radio job I've ever had. It's twelve years old. And
that trailer turned and ended up evolving into an actual
storefront radio station. Remember radio stations had a window and
(06:59):
you can walk past and wave at that person that's
on the air right now. They shout you out, hey girl,
I'll see you out there in that window. Uhuh in
d C W h U R still has that. I
always love that that at at Howard that they still
have the window that's so endearing and it breaks down
(07:20):
the wall. It does because we're in another space, right.
We talked about how important it is for black people
to be in all spaces right right indeed, Yeah, I mean,
I just think that more than anything that when we
see black women in charge of things, right, we have
places and spaces that we're used to seeing black women run,
and it's important for us to know that those same
(07:42):
skill sets go everywhere and that they can be taken everywhere.
And honestly, in my mind to think about the amount
of sexism and racism that she's had to experience over
the years is you know, it's humbling to think that
you can have a career this long and still maintain
into a company, because that's another thing. And one thing
you see even with some of the big you know,
(08:05):
black men in media, is that they've eventually had to
or decided to not had to decided to relinquish their
companies to larger parent companies. And she just has not
done that. And also, shoot, black radio is dying. She
is one of the last people standing. Shoutouts to this
opportunity to do podcast. But somebody has a business. This
(08:25):
is true, It's very true. That's the thing about America, guys.
I thought a monopoly was illegal. It's I can't even
we were dealing with so many monopolies as we speak
on this podcast, Jill, I mean you talkt off companies
(08:46):
that are owned billboards and all kind of media outlets.
What are we talking about, guys? I just thought that
was a legitimate question. It is, you know what we
were saying, is that not on he is? It a
legitimate question? But there's so many implications And that's what
I's so complicated to be black in this country right now,
be a woman in this country, be any kind of
(09:08):
marginalized person in this country, because so many you have
to interact with so many institutions that make it more
difficult for a Cathy Hughes to exist, that make it
more difficult for a Jill Scott to exist. It is
like it is a very interesting kind of um, you know,
parasitic existence. Is that everything is kind of built around
(09:31):
this this thing. So it's it's a lot. Yeah, you're right,
a monopoly is illegal. But at the same time, too,
what we have is you know, corporate warfare, and if
you think about that, who's going to fall at the
bottom of that, it's real easy to figure out who
and if it's a black woman owned media company in
(09:55):
a medium that is no longer modern. Yeah, but the
fact that she is still there even under those circumstances,
the fact that she was there and and is there,
but was there at all very male dominated, very white dominated,
(10:17):
um uh industry. I believe the Dr Cosby owned a
radio station at one point. We still does. Yeah, what
is the what is their k J L H. Yes,
because love joy hope, Yeah, joy, love happiness. And we're
(10:42):
we're you know, definitely appreciative of that. Who were talking
women today? We're talking about women in this industry, in
the music industry that just have pioneered and open doors
and are iconic to us for you know, multiple reasons. Oh,
(11:20):
powerful influential black women UM in the music industry will
give me. Well, I feel like that my choice is
slightly unsung, you know, um for lack of a better word,
but um, definitely not going to be surprising based on
(11:41):
what I do. So my husband and I singing a
singing group. If you're listening to this and you don't
know that we've been doing that for twenty two years,
almost one years. Uh, singing as a duo, and from
the very onset of us doing our music, people just
jumped out there and said, oh, you're gonna be the
(12:01):
new ash for the self song? Who didn't who did
the question? But I never thought that we were We
were deserving of that number one because of just the
the vast you know, I mean that of talent between
(12:25):
the two of them, um, not just as performers, but
also as writers and producer Hale and that is what really,
that's the TV heat right there, That's the value that
we're talking about here, And that's why I want to
talk about Valerie Simpson as a woman who I think
is such a powerhouse in the evolution of rhythm and
(12:47):
blues songwriting that never gets mentioned. The biggest songs you
can think of when you think of motown. How could
you not think of ant Now, Mountain high Enough? How
could you not think ain't nothing like the your Thing?
How can you not think of these tunes? But what
you don't think about is that the person behind the
composition and the music and the production is one miss
(13:13):
Valerie Simpson. And this is not to take away from
her partnership, because it was really a heavenly partnership because
no one and I just you can fight me. No
one can write a lyric and can write melody and
lyric like Valerie Simpson, No like Nick Ashford, lyric like
Nick ash For Nick Ashford was the the the lyricist
(13:35):
and the two of them, not that they didn't exchange, right,
not that they didn't exchange different roles. But his main
role was writing the lyrics. And so there was a
big story obviously between them about how he wrote I'm
every Woman. Oh, that he wrote the lyrics that I
Am every woman and so and so they tell a
fabulous story about this. This is on the internet. Yeah,
(13:57):
I ain't got to tell it. It ain't my story
to tell. But y'all could go listen to that remix agent.
Come on, man, come on, you know we listened to
this podcast. But she basically told him he was he
was struggling with it, and she was like, listen, you
need to sit down and get into your inner woman
and think like a woman and think like women think,
and try your best to get into that whole situation
that he was like he was, you know, he sat
(14:18):
quietly and and tried to get into his best mode,
and he vote like the quintessential so to me. But
at the same time too, and I know we're talking
about women, but we'll take a little sidetrack real quick
to talk about lyrically. Nick Ashford, Oh my gosh, he said,
um um, I want to say this is either ain't
(14:42):
nothing like the real thing, or it might be ain't
no mountain high enough where he says, I know you
could make a man out of a soul that didn't
have a goal. This man knew how to say a
thing in a tune. So my thing, my reason why
bringing this up is that because him being the lyricists
and then assuming that it was Valerie Simpson was the lyricist.
(15:05):
When she was the composer, she was the compostor. Hold
on singing writing, ladies, what that mean? I understand because
I thought that was the same thing. I'm just speaking
for the people. I know the real answer, but just
in case I don't what what you're talking about, Asia,
Because composing, composing means, composing means when it's time to
write the song. The person who sits down and writes
(15:25):
the chords, the person who sits and does she the
reason that we have do do do do do Don
on every woman. That the way it starts, like the
straight arrangement, Valerie Simpson, all the fingers, Honey, you better
give all of girl. You're better put some respect on
(15:46):
this woman's name. I'm not even done. I'm not even done.
Not only did she write these songs, did she write
the music to these songs. These are the same songs
who literally just two days ago, I'm watching This is
Us and Child. A whole commercial comes on and once
again the Walmart commercial is playing what her music? I
(16:07):
think it was ain't a mountain? But again again, this
is to this day, this music is not being is
not just only recognized within its genre, but outside of
the genre commercially every way possible. Her composition, and this
woman has been writing since seventeen eighteen years old. When
she met her husband, she was only eighteen nineteen years old, which,
(16:29):
of course, you know is deep to my heart because
I also met mine at this same age. So bottom line, yes,
so their story is very very close to Connie. I
love them. I love them as people. They're amazing people,
and they've been lovely to us, and she has been
amazing to us. Really just being an asshole, like I
(16:54):
don't like I don't like the idea of the new
blah blah blah. The person is, oh, yeah, I don't
like the new blah blah blah. They're the only they're
only She's amazing. But let me say this also, um
oh honey and legs yea, legs and shoes and shoes
and shoes, shoes that legs, let's and shoes, shoes that
(17:16):
leg Okay, So last thing about her. I and you
can fight me, because I don't care I fight. She's
(17:39):
the inventor of the remix what she what was the
first She took Ain't no Mountain high enough her and
her husband and re recorded the song with an entirely
new arrangement because that's how with Diana raw and created
(18:04):
a whole another number one hit with it. They were
writers on the whiz. Yes, oh, they were there, their
old school Motown writing duo. They were there very They
were part of the second wave of writers. They were
very young. They came in after the Hollandosha Hollands and
that kind of thing, but they were still there during
the same time. They were just much younger. But they've
(18:27):
written amazing. Yeah, So I believe that that was the
first major remix to me, not the same as like,
let's say, when you have a jazz standard and people
sing a different type of jazz, different you know, takes
on the jazz standard. This was a producer driven moment,
and I honestly don't care if anyone agree. She's amazing.
(18:47):
She's a genius. She is a genius, not a diva.
I'm tell about anybody listening, not a diva. Not a diva,
not a diva, a genius. Man. Put some respect on
her name, got it there. I wish you all could
see Age's face because she's she's sitting, but she put
(19:12):
her hands on her hips to the side and everything.
She's like, put some respect on her name. And then
the quiet you saw was her body organizing itself for
a fight, like like you're gonna get one. People listening,
you can't even see she's talking to y'all people she's
talking about. Yeah, I'm just talking to y'all out there.
(19:32):
I want all the smoke that would be kindred the
wife on Instagram, which just if you got some smoke,
don't bring it to the jail podcast. Speaking of smoke,
(20:05):
all right, the woman that is my iconic woman, uh
in the music industry is my rainie. Homegirl's name is Gertrude. Good. Okay,
(20:29):
that's where you starts. Where that's where you start. When
somebody's name is Gertrude, It's about to be some fire,
my rainie. This goes way back, y'all. Um. She was
born in eighteen eighty six. Yeah, this is the time
(20:55):
number one. Um, clearly, Uh we're still fighting. Um, we're
still fighting now. For that matter, she was started out
singing the blues, ended up singing the blues. But this
her blues was was raw dog okay, in a time
when people wore the dresses to a certain length and
(21:17):
made sure to be modest and in church every Sunday
and all of these things, and that it wasn't just
the institution of church, it was mandatory that you had
to be a certain kind of way, particularly in an
industry like the music industry. She wasn't light skinned, She
wasn't propped up her she her titties was hanging comfortably. Um.
(21:42):
She she wasn't light skinned. Okay. Um, she was sassy
and assy has some I was like, yes, yes, yes, Um.
She wasn't a soft woman either, meaning she didn't say okay,
(22:08):
I'll do whatever you say. No, she was a fistfighter
and a tongue lasher and um, she didn't play any
kind of games. This woman wrote a song called prove
it on Me, Okay, prove it on me. Um. She
(22:30):
she apparently got caught in this um orgy at her
house in n and it was it was popular news
that she had you know, was was out there doing
what she was doing. So she wrote a song called
prove it on Me okay, and the lyrics say, they said,
(22:55):
I do it. Ain't nobody caught me. Sure got to
prove it it on me without last night with a
crowd of my friends. They must have been women, because
I don't like no men. Yeah, okay, my gangster. Y'all
(23:15):
know who Angela Davis is right now? Okay. She's an
activist and a scholar, just in case you don't know.
And um, she said that that song was the reason
for the whole lesbian cultural movement in the seventies. Wow,
I wonder what happened in between them. They're they're doing
(23:38):
a movie about her. Um. Netflix is doing a movie
about My Rainy. Um. It is based off of the
play that August Wilson did. My Rainey's Black Bottom. It's
interesting to you. It's funny what we We got an
opportunity to kind of watch it, and I was it
(24:00):
makes me want to go back to the play because
and I think you you guys are both seen to play.
I have never seen the play. Okay, I've never seen
the play. So let me ask you to jail the
character that Chadwick plays Leddie. I believe Levi Levi I'm sorry.
Was he the central character in the actual August Wilson's play.
(24:21):
It depends on who's directing. Okay, the way I see
it, it it all depends on who's directing. Um, I I
(24:42):
saw it as well. And that performance by Chadwick. Ye see.
It's that I'm a I'm a firm believer. I don't
think that I can sing everything. I've always said this,
I have to write it. It has to come through
me in a way in order for me to be
(25:03):
able to relate the information other than that, Um, it's
just a song. And I'm not really a singer. I'm I.
You know, there's We're gonna argue about these things. For
some people, it's okay, um, but it was what was written.
It's that it's that the August Wilson of it all,
(25:26):
the August Wilson of it all, what he put down
on paper, Oh my God, of the of of those lines.
And how as an actor you're required to sing everything
August Wilson when he writes us it's all music from
(25:47):
the beginning to end. And Viola Davis a man rainy.
You know, can I just take a moment for elder?
Can we can we also give some love to go
with child? Listen, I'm so glad you said it because
(26:10):
it was burning in my soul. Listen, the flowers, the bouquets,
the shrubbery. You've been doing the work like small trees
when said this. Let me say this, there was a moment.
I cried many times throughout this movie, many many times.
But the first of the many times I cried was
(26:32):
in the very beginning. And not to give any any
any spoilers, but there is a moment. There's a moment
in in in the beginning of the movie where black
men are talking m m mm hmm oh. And if
ever you want to fall in love with black men
(26:55):
even deeper than you are already, this is the moment
that will get you there. The way they laughed, and
the way they joked with one another, and how they
would go from the serious to the funny, to the
painful to the painfully. You see black men exchange these
(27:20):
complex and nuanced moments with each other. Was everything that
I ever needed in my life. It was everything. Because
I don't think enough of this is shown of our men.
I'm going to respect that emotion, honey, Enough of that
(27:42):
is not shown of our men and their vulnerabilities, because
that's what we saw too, right, Like even when they
were trying to man in the midst against the other,
it's like, hold up, brother, let me tell you why
I am. And then in that moment after I tell
you who I am, that's where you change your ways
because you're like shit, like yeah, we we tried, like
(28:05):
we man. And that powerfully strong presence of my Rainy,
that losing over everything. It's almost unbelievable that she had
(28:33):
such free she was so free, you know what I mean,
Like the way that she spoke to those those white
men who you know, were ran her record label, and
what she refused to do which and the way that
she understood it, how she understood that she was a
tool and all they wanted was her voice, and she
was going to make sure she got everything that she
wanted because they was gonna get everything they wanted. That's right.
(28:56):
But that commentary is important, whether she said the words
or not, it is. That commentary is important because it
is still relevant. It is still truly relevant, particularly about
Black women and black women who have a lot of
agency around their sexuality. Even in today's music industry. You
(29:17):
think about a Cardi b. You think about a Megan Nostalgion,
you think about a Lizzo, all these different people, there's
a very real conversation still happening, you know, around women's sexuality,
Black women's in the entertainment and music particularly, and women
being able to um, you know, dictate business wise, how
(29:42):
that's gonna go, how that's going to be sold, and
how it's going to be done. I just who baby,
So don't think you were the first young women, No
you were not. We must we must take this moment
to shout out Millie Jackson to come on, it must
be done. It must be done lyrically. Her presence on stage,
(30:06):
her the growl, and her voice, all of it. Grace Jones,
I mean, yes, yes, there is this. Uh it's a
fear of our sexuality. That drives me absolutely insane. It
drives me crazy. You're allowed to be smart, you can
(30:29):
be smart, Okay, but I remember, um, well, I'm thinking
Angela yee, that's not her name, Angela right, Angela right? Politics, yes, politics,
Angela right. When people realize that she was a hottie,
(30:50):
they didn't know what to do it, They didn't know
what to do with it. Yeah, you should hear her
stories of having a shut nicks down. It's crazy to me.
You're not to be or. It's not so much that
you're not allowed, it's just uncomfortable for people. When you
allow yourself to be all of yourself, you have to
(31:10):
pull back in some way, shape or form. I particular
for her because she is mixing together two things that
people can't. People's brains are exploding. It's like, oh, I
talk about politics and religion because she's also a very
devout Christian, talk about politics and religion. And I'm about
(31:31):
to put this dress on and show y'all how snatched
this waist is and give you all this glamor. You
interviewed her. I remember that night, and she was dynamic.
It has been dynamic sense. But to see how things
have have have moved forward for her. But like I said,
pulling together those two worlds for people, you know, it
(31:53):
might be able to handle it in music, but if
you're doing handle it music, But y'all trying to handle
it in music. They pretend there's been more discussions about
whop in the last You Know a Girl months. Um.
I remember when I first heard what I was taken
(32:14):
aback by the lyrics. Quite frankly, I wasn't ready myself.
Why did it feel different than uh, any random Little
Kim song? I'm just using a Little Kim as an example, like,
why do you feel I remember being excited by Little Kim?
Mhm Um. I think it had a lot to do
(32:35):
with the word play. We need you, I think, yeah
we should. Yeah, I think it had a lot to
do with the word play. I'm I'm you know, I'm
also a reader a writer, and um, I like word
play and I think that there was a lot of
it there with Little Kim. Yeah. I didn't feel that
necessarily from wop um. Everything seemed to be pretty straightforward
(33:00):
word right, just come get this wet ass pussy. Yeah, well,
I don't know, Like Kim was pretty straightforward to it.
She was like, you know, I'm gonna watch my stories
while you eat my pussy. That's pretty straightforward. Yeah, but
it'll come came to the picture. So you basically are
saying something about lyrics curiously, like somebody is obviously a
better lyricist to you in a sense of just right.
(33:22):
There's the reason why I gravitated towards it. I just
because Kim I saw pictures, and for why I heard
words to lyrics, I mean to a rhythm. Yeah, you
don't get all you get your feelings hurting and all
in your back my feelings. I'm talking like you. I'm
(33:44):
other people listen, other people listen to Asia. You know
you guys are sometimes um but you know that's the
way I feel. I'm a I'm kind of I'm a
lyricist fan. I like I like that put together in
a way. I mean, I wrote Crown Royal. You know
(34:05):
I thought it was visual. You know I can do that.
It is I could be wrong. Your hands on my
hips pull me right back to you. I'm sorry. I
have a whole part is when it's no. My part
is when it's hell you you I don't it's not
it's not. It's you don't say you It's like he you,
(34:26):
you don't. I don't know what you say when you
say I flipped ship something to the lip, I say
a lip, himp dip and I'm twisted in your hands
and your lips and your tongue tricks and you're so thick. Yeah,
it's it's nasty as a song is nasty. However, however,
(34:50):
yes it is. It is. It is woven together in
a lyrical little meal that is fantastical. However, we just
like when we because I doubt anybody on this line
was like, I cannot stay. I'm not saying you can
lick it, you can stick it, you could taste it.
I'm talking every drip drop. Don't you waste it like
that was? That was some hot ship when it came out.
(35:13):
Was in that was a Canelli put it in your mouth.
And I wasn't there for that. He wasn't He wasn't
here for that. I'm gonna tell you that I was.
I was late to the Kim Train. I was actually
late to the little Kim Train when it first came out.
I was a little taken aback, I got a little
(35:36):
I got slightly. It was a lot. I got slightly
united Methodists when I heard you know what I'm saying.
I'm on Man Dreams, A Sucking R and B Dick.
But listen, I was late when I first got there.
I wasn't ready. Okay, it was a lot for me. Okay,
As I got older, I was like, okay, Kim was
(35:58):
all someothing. But also to further down the when I
got to other songs, radio hits, the radio hits, I
was like, boom, but I had to work up to
listen to the album versions was not lie. I had
to work up to it. But again, if we're raising
(36:27):
young women these days, to honor these women, these iconic
figures within this industry, and we know that we're at
you know, Auntie age around this time, and we have
other young girls who are coming, young women who are
coming into this business, we have to offer them the space,
(36:48):
uh in evolved space, a space that says that you
no longer have to fight this same fight to be
yourself and be who you are. And I never forget um.
Chris Rock talked about how you know he was this
world famous comedian and he lived next door to a
dentist and that you know wife folks get a chance
(37:10):
to be mediocre. All right. Everybody is not gonna necessarily
have the same level of um access to that kind
of lyrical prowess, you know what I mean. But they
do have an audience and they do have an artistic
voice for some reason. Let me let me for some reason,
(37:30):
if I say anything, it's it's a speaking out, some
speaking out against something or other than I'm not thinking.
I don't have any problem at all. Want your earthie
perchase somewhere. That's what they say. They say, you on
your earthie perch somewhere. Just you know that I made that.
Shut up. It was just a translation of what I
(37:50):
think I mean. I guess there are people that think
that that's fine. I don't know what to tell you.
I'm a whole person. W h o l e w
h oh. That's not how my raining would have said there,
But listen, I'm a whole I love it. It would
(38:18):
have been. And she speaking to anybody because all of herself,
she allowed herself to be herself. She was not afraid
of those folks that were trying to put her in
boxes or confine her to anything. And black people, a
lot of black people did not like her. I'm glad
you said that, because I wondered thinking here, like in
(38:40):
retrospect we can all have this kind of level of respect.
But like if she was to come out right now,
what where where would we be on the side of
the coin, Because like I told you, I was slowed
to the chim train. Yeah, I was slowed to the
Billy Holiday train. Wow. All right, yeah, you know that's
(39:04):
what I'm saying. Like I saw how would she be received?
Lady Sings the Blues before I actually saw uh before
I heard of Billie Holiday music. But that's fair, that's
I think that's some eighties baby ship. But yeah, yeah,
And I didn't catch on until what that was until
I got my feelings hurt. Once I got my feelings
hurt and listened to Billy Holliday, I was like, oh,
(39:28):
I see what this is. Yeah, but I didn't get
it until then. Yeah. I think we're always going to
end up in some kind of Auntie position when it
comes to two songs like like wap you know, um,
I had to bring that up again. I just feel
like we're always gonna come up with something that people
(39:50):
are gonna feel like there's a judgment or an anti
thing happening. I just like what I like, you know,
I was just gonna. I also try to keep aware
of the steady evolution of sexuality in media, because I
always used the whole thing of like at some point
when margat Gay came up with sexual Hill and my
fucker was like, wow, no, that's too much, turn it down.
So now I'm like, here, we are forty years later.
(40:11):
What the funk do I expect? We are twenty years
after Little Kim Yeah, wet ass pussy, that's about right. Wow,
we are twenty years after Little Kim and and it's
always fun in games until you see it, until you
hear a three year old singing it. Yeah, I don't
never want you'll be like, oh yes, yes, ladies, you'll
(40:31):
be at I have some songs on my next project
that I'm like, oh I know, no, oh no, no,
we do give it, give it. It's the next level,
Crown Royal, because we're here for that. You gotta evolve,
you know, at this age, nasty Jail is the only
Jill I'm interested in. How about that? How about that
that I need Nasty Jill consistently in my life Unless
(40:53):
you gotta you about to lose your job remix because
I'm looking. I've been looking, waiting for something or to
do that for me. But that's fine. You know, whatever
mix is not needed. The original is a classic. It
is she is, she does classic. An iconic woman. I'm
just joking because she had the triflate part. That's what
I'm out what she called it, triflate. Hmm, what's you thinking,
(41:16):
jail over there? I was thinking of some more iconic women,
um in this music industry. I'm wow, we're talking about
women that may change. You know, I've heard that name
damn near my whole life. I've heard that name my
whole life. I'm gonna throw a Beyonce in the hat.
(41:36):
That is absolutely as she should be. Might be fine, fine, fine, fine.
I've never seen anybody anywhere work harder than that lady ever.
I know, you know, musicians that work with her and
that level of of business, that level of professionalism. I
(42:01):
every time I've ever seen her perform anywhere, I I
get chill bumps. I'm stuttering. See she's taking that Diana
Ross formula next level. It's amazing. She's amazing, She's amazing,
and she's introduced so many different kinds of music and
different kinds of visuals um that are healthy. And every
(42:24):
time I think, I think, I think what she has done,
and she has kind of mixed together what used to
be the pop trifecta and put it into one artist.
You know, they're used. Madonna was known as a chameleon,
where she would figure out what was going on in
the underground and bring it to the mainstream. Beyonce has
(42:45):
done that consistently. Then Michael Jackson was a person who
brought um just a dynamics of stage performance and dance
into his artistry, beyond just the fact that he was
an amazing singer and everything. And she has been able
to like turned I mean that the Michael Jackson mentality.
I mean, she's taking that to the very next level
(43:06):
in my in my opinion, humbly, you know. And then
you talk about just straight flatfoot singing that part. But
she was saying earlier, she both like how you both
She thrice the we're gonna keep, We're gonna end up
(43:36):
um forgiving ourselves at times, you know, I We're gonna keep.
We're gonna keep forgiving ourselves as we continue, because we're
gonna say the wrong thing sometimes and it's wrong because
we're trying to advance past it. So you know, when
you know that something is baige, you don't want to
keep calling it white, you know what I mean? You
(43:57):
want to learn what it is and then move moved
towards that, move towards the truth, or moved towards um
a place where people can feel happy and healthy and
um seen. And I certainly want you to have all
of your sexuality. I certainly want you to be all
(44:23):
of you. I do what else is there? I'm super
proud of these women that um that they weren't then
that they've never been doing it for me. You know,
they did it because that's where, that's where, that's who
they were. It's so much so much better to go
ahead and be who you are. I mean, that is
(44:48):
I mean, that is the pathway to being iconic. Is
it not? What is not? My phone says uh, Small
minds can't comprehend big spirits. To be great, you have
to be willing to be mocked, hated and misunderstood. Stay strong.
(45:08):
It is the mic Onna floor is the mic Gonna floor.
The mic is on the floor. How do you eat
(45:36):
an elephant? One by it? Time. What's up everybody. I'm Eaves,
a producer on the show, and it's resource time. Okay,
so we have a lot today. Joe would like to
point you to Queer Cultural Center dot org, which has
information on the importance of My Rainy. You can check
(45:58):
out the Netflix film A Rainy's Black Bottom as well.
And for the love of all that is black and beautiful,
please read or go see in August Wilson Play. If
you ever have the chance, and while I'm one that note,
go support small theaters, female directors and emerging actors. And
then there's all of the people that Jill, Asia and
Layah mentioned today. If you don't know about some of
(46:20):
these people and groups like Millie Jackson, LaBelle, Cathy Hughes,
and Valerie Simpson, go look them up and learn a
little bit more about their work. If you already do
know a little something about them, I'll drop some leaks
in the episode description. Thank you for listening to Jill
(46:42):
Scott Presents j dot il the podcast. This podcast is
hosted by Jill Scott, Laya st Clair, and agent Graden Danceler.
(47:06):
It's executive producers are Jill Scott, Shawn j and Brian Calhoun.
It's produced by Laya St. Clair and me Eve Jeff Coke.
The editing and sound design for this episode we're done
by Taylor Chaquoin. Listen, you ain't gonna look too far
for Ashbrod and Simpson any motown discography. Just just checked
(47:32):
out to get by all I need. That's the Aretha version,
but she wrote it. But that's that's iconic. You wrote
a song that Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross, and Aretha Franklin
all recorded, and all all three versions are different. Bye Bye.
(47:57):
J dot Ill is a production of i HA Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows
Welcome to Jay dot Ill, a production of I Heart Radio.
(00:23):
Peace in Love y'all. Jill Scott presents Jay dot Ill
with my sister queens Age and I'm Jill Scott. Hello darling.
How are you. I'm feeling kind of spicy. I didn't
(00:46):
get a lot of sleep. Um. Working, working is good.
Working is good, especially when you love what you do.
But I'm a little you know, I could use the
belly rub and a good little nap, you know, yes,
come on, belly rug. Yes that that feels like m
(01:07):
it feels like it needed right thing to do. You
don't become an iconic woman in any industry, uh by
only taking naps all the time. The opposite, it's like
the opposite. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's quite the opposite. You
gotta put in a whole lot of work. You gotta
(01:27):
put a whole lot of guts, a whole lot of passion,
a whole lot of energy into what it is that
you do. Um. Oftentimes we talk about singers, and they're
singers with these beautiful voices. They could do anything with
the thing. And then they're singers, you know, like like
(01:48):
a Janis Choplin. If you will all guts and grits
and gristle and blood. And you know, my daddy called
it screaming and that too, and that too because sometimes
the scream is necessary. Sometimes it is necessary, just like
(02:08):
that work, just like that, that soul bearing portion of
the show, that that counts always as an artist, there
are entertainers and their artists entertainers. Um, this is my
opinion anyway. I think that entertainers entertained the people. You know,
they put on the show, they practice the moves, they
(02:30):
change the clothes and change the lights to do the thing.
And I love to be entertained. So it's not even
a thing. I'm not trying to dis anybody at all.
And then you've got these flat footed I don't know
what to call it, just the soul bearers that um,
that make a difference in your vision. You know, I'm
(02:55):
all over the place. But what I really want to
talk about is UM, iconic women in the music industry
for whatever reason, if it's because you know, they've been
an incredible entertainers. UM, like a Diana Ross, because I
I you know, she's the boss. Is the original? Yeah,
(03:16):
she's like the original. I was gonna say the original
be but then just in a sense of like singing
and acting and doing kids all TV shows and producing
and introducing new artists and introducing new artists. People don't
give her credit for that. Yeah, she definitely brought out
the Jackson Five, like the one of the biggest um
(03:37):
groups of all time. Um, you know, there's there's there's
a room full, there's a there's a mountainful of powerful
women in front and behind, in front and behind the scenes. Yes, ma'am,
(04:09):
talk about it. It's funny. You know. We talked about
having this conversation early earlier, and I was thinking of like,
who to you is iconic, And the person that came
to my mind is somebody who I've been following my
whole life as a radio girl. I actually worked for her.
I've actually been fired twice for her radio stations. And
yet and still I still think it's important to say
(04:31):
her name because she is one of a few. Actually,
she's the one and only. Her name is Kathi Hughes,
the only black woman who has multiple radio stations. At
some point, she had rail stations almost in every major city.
You know, that's now matriculated into not just the radio
station network but TV, but like and digital can you
(04:53):
imagine and digital can you imagine the battle? I mean,
actually you don't have to imagine the battle because you
see a small so it and talk to me with
don cheetah as they hint at Oh way, tell Joeper's
character is Dewey Hughes, her husband at the time. Yeah, yeah,
I mean for those of us who grew up in Washington,
(05:14):
d C. We remember, you know, w h O l
um when we were middle yeah, right, and when we
were little and they would be in a trailer right
over there off of a street, and you could actually
drive by and see Cathy Hughes doing Sunday Morning Joy
(05:36):
on Sundays. You could drive by and see her host
in the Gospel music show or every Sunday and not
knowing and understanding obviously not foreseeing, but even then understanding
that she was putting the platform and the pavers down
was gonna become such an iconic businesswoman, you know. And
(05:56):
she's played every role in radio. You know, to to
watch a man as a little girl be a radio
personality and then a sin to where she has now
is like and may I add, may I add Asia
a hell of black lady. It's in the sense of
what she said out of her mother. This is a
woman who had a morning show every day with Dick Gregg. Okay, okay,
(06:17):
but yeah, and and own radio stations. She that's it's
black and said, you can't get no black up. You're like,
and I'm still going to work. That's black. That's black.
That's a beautiful thing. Yes, yes, yes, if you just
you know, if you missed part of this, we were
talking about Kathy Hughes. Goodness, that's you need to know
(06:38):
the name. I mean, you shouldn't know the name. If
if you know, you know, for for for the Oprah Whimpley's,
there are the Kathrey that Cathy uses of the world.
It's only one though, still only Oh yeah, the first
radio job I've ever had. It's twelve years old. And
that trailer turned and ended up evolving into an actual
storefront radio station. Remember radio stations had a window and
(06:59):
you can walk past and wave at that person that's
on the air right now. They shout you out, hey girl,
I'll see you out there in that window. Uhuh in
d C W h U R still has that. I
always love that that at at Howard that they still
have the window that's so endearing and it breaks down
(07:20):
the wall. It does because we're in another space, right.
We talked about how important it is for black people
to be in all spaces right right indeed, Yeah, I mean,
I just think that more than anything that when we
see black women in charge of things, right, we have
places and spaces that we're used to seeing black women run,
and it's important for us to know that those same
(07:42):
skill sets go everywhere and that they can be taken everywhere.
And honestly, in my mind to think about the amount
of sexism and racism that she's had to experience over
the years is you know, it's humbling to think that
you can have a career this long and still maintain
into a company, because that's another thing. And one thing
you see even with some of the big you know,
(08:05):
black men in media, is that they've eventually had to
or decided to not had to decided to relinquish their
companies to larger parent companies. And she just has not
done that. And also, shoot, black radio is dying. She
is one of the last people standing. Shoutouts to this
opportunity to do podcast. But somebody has a business. This
(08:25):
is true, It's very true. That's the thing about America, guys.
I thought a monopoly was illegal. It's I can't even
we were dealing with so many monopolies as we speak
on this podcast, Jill, I mean you talkt off companies
(08:46):
that are owned billboards and all kind of media outlets.
What are we talking about, guys? I just thought that
was a legitimate question. It is, you know what we
were saying, is that not on he is? It a
legitimate question? But there's so many implications And that's what
I's so complicated to be black in this country right now,
be a woman in this country, be any kind of
(09:08):
marginalized person in this country, because so many you have
to interact with so many institutions that make it more
difficult for a Cathy Hughes to exist, that make it
more difficult for a Jill Scott to exist. It is
like it is a very interesting kind of um, you know,
parasitic existence. Is that everything is kind of built around
(09:31):
this this thing. So it's it's a lot. Yeah, you're right,
a monopoly is illegal. But at the same time, too,
what we have is you know, corporate warfare, and if
you think about that, who's going to fall at the
bottom of that, it's real easy to figure out who
and if it's a black woman owned media company in
(09:55):
a medium that is no longer modern. Yeah, but the
fact that she is still there even under those circumstances,
the fact that she was there and and is there,
but was there at all very male dominated, very white dominated,
(10:17):
um uh industry. I believe the Dr Cosby owned a
radio station at one point. We still does. Yeah, what
is the what is their k J L H. Yes,
because love joy hope, Yeah, joy, love happiness. And we're
(10:42):
we're you know, definitely appreciative of that. Who were talking
women today? We're talking about women in this industry, in
the music industry that just have pioneered and open doors
and are iconic to us for you know, multiple reasons. Oh,
(11:20):
powerful influential black women UM in the music industry will
give me. Well, I feel like that my choice is
slightly unsung, you know, um for lack of a better word,
but um, definitely not going to be surprising based on
(11:41):
what I do. So my husband and I singing a
singing group. If you're listening to this and you don't
know that we've been doing that for twenty two years,
almost one years. Uh, singing as a duo, and from
the very onset of us doing our music, people just
jumped out there and said, oh, you're gonna be the
(12:01):
new ash for the self song? Who didn't who did
the question? But I never thought that we were We
were deserving of that number one because of just the
the vast you know, I mean that of talent between
(12:25):
the two of them, um, not just as performers, but
also as writers and producer Hale and that is what really,
that's the TV heat right there, That's the value that
we're talking about here, And that's why I want to
talk about Valerie Simpson as a woman who I think
is such a powerhouse in the evolution of rhythm and
(12:47):
blues songwriting that never gets mentioned. The biggest songs you
can think of when you think of motown. How could
you not think of ant Now, Mountain high Enough? How
could you not think ain't nothing like the your Thing?
How can you not think of these tunes? But what
you don't think about is that the person behind the
composition and the music and the production is one miss
(13:13):
Valerie Simpson. And this is not to take away from
her partnership, because it was really a heavenly partnership because
no one and I just you can fight me. No
one can write a lyric and can write melody and
lyric like Valerie Simpson, No like Nick Ashford, lyric like
Nick ash For Nick Ashford was the the the lyricist
(13:35):
and the two of them, not that they didn't exchange, right,
not that they didn't exchange different roles. But his main
role was writing the lyrics. And so there was a
big story obviously between them about how he wrote I'm
every Woman. Oh, that he wrote the lyrics that I
Am every woman and so and so they tell a
fabulous story about this. This is on the internet. Yeah,
(13:57):
I ain't got to tell it. It ain't my story
to tell. But y'all could go listen to that remix agent.
Come on, man, come on, you know we listened to
this podcast. But she basically told him he was he
was struggling with it, and she was like, listen, you
need to sit down and get into your inner woman
and think like a woman and think like women think,
and try your best to get into that whole situation
that he was like he was, you know, he sat
(14:18):
quietly and and tried to get into his best mode,
and he vote like the quintessential so to me. But
at the same time too, and I know we're talking
about women, but we'll take a little sidetrack real quick
to talk about lyrically. Nick Ashford, Oh my gosh, he said,
um um, I want to say this is either ain't
(14:42):
nothing like the real thing, or it might be ain't
no mountain high enough where he says, I know you
could make a man out of a soul that didn't
have a goal. This man knew how to say a
thing in a tune. So my thing, my reason why
bringing this up is that because him being the lyricists
and then assuming that it was Valerie Simpson was the lyricist.
(15:05):
When she was the composer, she was the compostor. Hold
on singing writing, ladies, what that mean? I understand because
I thought that was the same thing. I'm just speaking
for the people. I know the real answer, but just
in case I don't what what you're talking about, Asia,
Because composing, composing means, composing means when it's time to
write the song. The person who sits down and writes
(15:25):
the chords, the person who sits and does she the
reason that we have do do do do do Don
on every woman. That the way it starts, like the
straight arrangement, Valerie Simpson, all the fingers, Honey, you better
give all of girl. You're better put some respect on
(15:46):
this woman's name. I'm not even done. I'm not even done.
Not only did she write these songs, did she write
the music to these songs. These are the same songs
who literally just two days ago, I'm watching This is
Us and Child. A whole commercial comes on and once
again the Walmart commercial is playing what her music? I
(16:07):
think it was ain't a mountain? But again again, this
is to this day, this music is not being is
not just only recognized within its genre, but outside of
the genre commercially every way possible. Her composition, and this
woman has been writing since seventeen eighteen years old. When
she met her husband, she was only eighteen nineteen years old, which,
(16:29):
of course, you know is deep to my heart because
I also met mine at this same age. So bottom line, yes,
so their story is very very close to Connie. I
love them. I love them as people. They're amazing people,
and they've been lovely to us, and she has been
amazing to us. Really just being an asshole, like I
(16:54):
don't like I don't like the idea of the new
blah blah blah. The person is, oh, yeah, I don't
like the new blah blah blah. They're the only they're
only She's amazing. But let me say this also, um
oh honey and legs yea, legs and shoes and shoes
and shoes, shoes that legs, let's and shoes, shoes that
(17:16):
leg Okay, So last thing about her. I and you
can fight me, because I don't care I fight. She's
(17:39):
the inventor of the remix what she what was the
first She took Ain't no Mountain high enough her and
her husband and re recorded the song with an entirely
new arrangement because that's how with Diana raw and created
(18:04):
a whole another number one hit with it. They were
writers on the whiz. Yes, oh, they were there, their
old school Motown writing duo. They were there very They
were part of the second wave of writers. They were
very young. They came in after the Hollandosha Hollands and
that kind of thing, but they were still there during
the same time. They were just much younger. But they've
(18:27):
written amazing. Yeah, So I believe that that was the
first major remix to me, not the same as like,
let's say, when you have a jazz standard and people
sing a different type of jazz, different you know, takes
on the jazz standard. This was a producer driven moment,
and I honestly don't care if anyone agree. She's amazing.
(18:47):
She's a genius. She is a genius, not a diva.
I'm tell about anybody listening, not a diva. Not a diva,
not a diva, a genius. Man. Put some respect on
her name, got it there. I wish you all could
see Age's face because she's she's sitting, but she put
(19:12):
her hands on her hips to the side and everything.
She's like, put some respect on her name. And then
the quiet you saw was her body organizing itself for
a fight, like like you're gonna get one. People listening,
you can't even see she's talking to y'all people she's
talking about. Yeah, I'm just talking to y'all out there.
(19:32):
I want all the smoke that would be kindred the
wife on Instagram, which just if you got some smoke,
don't bring it to the jail podcast. Speaking of smoke,
(20:05):
all right, the woman that is my iconic woman, uh
in the music industry is my rainie. Homegirl's name is Gertrude. Good. Okay,
(20:29):
that's where you starts. Where that's where you start. When
somebody's name is Gertrude, It's about to be some fire,
my rainie. This goes way back, y'all. Um. She was
born in eighteen eighty six. Yeah, this is the time
(20:55):
number one. Um, clearly, Uh we're still fighting. Um, we're
still fighting now. For that matter, she was started out
singing the blues, ended up singing the blues. But this
her blues was was raw dog okay, in a time
when people wore the dresses to a certain length and
(21:17):
made sure to be modest and in church every Sunday
and all of these things, and that it wasn't just
the institution of church, it was mandatory that you had
to be a certain kind of way, particularly in an
industry like the music industry. She wasn't light skinned, She
wasn't propped up her she her titties was hanging comfortably. Um.
(21:42):
She she wasn't light skinned. Okay. Um, she was sassy
and assy has some I was like, yes, yes, yes, Um.
She wasn't a soft woman either, meaning she didn't say okay,
(22:08):
I'll do whatever you say. No, she was a fistfighter
and a tongue lasher and um, she didn't play any
kind of games. This woman wrote a song called prove
it on Me, Okay, prove it on me. Um. She
(22:30):
she apparently got caught in this um orgy at her
house in n and it was it was popular news
that she had you know, was was out there doing
what she was doing. So she wrote a song called
prove it on Me okay, and the lyrics say, they said,
(22:55):
I do it. Ain't nobody caught me. Sure got to
prove it it on me without last night with a
crowd of my friends. They must have been women, because
I don't like no men. Yeah, okay, my gangster. Y'all
(23:15):
know who Angela Davis is right now? Okay. She's an
activist and a scholar, just in case you don't know.
And um, she said that that song was the reason
for the whole lesbian cultural movement in the seventies. Wow,
I wonder what happened in between them. They're they're doing
(23:38):
a movie about her. Um. Netflix is doing a movie
about My Rainy. Um. It is based off of the
play that August Wilson did. My Rainey's Black Bottom. It's
interesting to you. It's funny what we We got an
opportunity to kind of watch it, and I was it
(24:00):
makes me want to go back to the play because
and I think you you guys are both seen to play.
I have never seen the play. Okay, I've never seen
the play. So let me ask you to jail the
character that Chadwick plays Leddie. I believe Levi Levi I'm sorry.
Was he the central character in the actual August Wilson's play.
(24:21):
It depends on who's directing. Okay, the way I see
it, it it all depends on who's directing. Um, I I
(24:42):
saw it as well. And that performance by Chadwick. Ye see.
It's that I'm a I'm a firm believer. I don't
think that I can sing everything. I've always said this,
I have to write it. It has to come through
me in a way in order for me to be
(25:03):
able to relate the information other than that, Um, it's
just a song. And I'm not really a singer. I'm I.
You know, there's We're gonna argue about these things. For
some people, it's okay, um, but it was what was written.
It's that it's that the August Wilson of it all,
(25:26):
the August Wilson of it all, what he put down
on paper, Oh my God, of the of of those lines.
And how as an actor you're required to sing everything
August Wilson when he writes us it's all music from
(25:47):
the beginning to end. And Viola Davis a man rainy.
You know, can I just take a moment for elder?
Can we can we also give some love to go
with child? Listen, I'm so glad you said it because
(26:10):
it was burning in my soul. Listen, the flowers, the bouquets,
the shrubbery. You've been doing the work like small trees
when said this. Let me say this, there was a moment.
I cried many times throughout this movie, many many times.
But the first of the many times I cried was
(26:32):
in the very beginning. And not to give any any
any spoilers, but there is a moment. There's a moment
in in in the beginning of the movie where black
men are talking m m mm hmm oh. And if
ever you want to fall in love with black men
(26:55):
even deeper than you are already, this is the moment
that will get you there. The way they laughed, and
the way they joked with one another, and how they
would go from the serious to the funny, to the
painful to the painfully. You see black men exchange these
(27:20):
complex and nuanced moments with each other. Was everything that
I ever needed in my life. It was everything. Because
I don't think enough of this is shown of our men.
I'm going to respect that emotion, honey, Enough of that
(27:42):
is not shown of our men and their vulnerabilities, because
that's what we saw too, right, Like even when they
were trying to man in the midst against the other,
it's like, hold up, brother, let me tell you why
I am. And then in that moment after I tell
you who I am, that's where you change your ways
because you're like shit, like yeah, we we tried, like
(28:05):
we man. And that powerfully strong presence of my Rainy,
that losing over everything. It's almost unbelievable that she had
(28:33):
such free she was so free, you know what I mean,
Like the way that she spoke to those those white
men who you know, were ran her record label, and
what she refused to do which and the way that
she understood it, how she understood that she was a
tool and all they wanted was her voice, and she
was going to make sure she got everything that she
wanted because they was gonna get everything they wanted. That's right.
(28:56):
But that commentary is important, whether she said the words
or not, it is. That commentary is important because it
is still relevant. It is still truly relevant, particularly about
Black women and black women who have a lot of
agency around their sexuality. Even in today's music industry. You
(29:17):
think about a Cardi b. You think about a Megan Nostalgion,
you think about a Lizzo, all these different people, there's
a very real conversation still happening, you know, around women's sexuality,
Black women's in the entertainment and music particularly, and women
being able to um, you know, dictate business wise, how
(29:42):
that's gonna go, how that's going to be sold, and
how it's going to be done. I just who baby,
So don't think you were the first young women, No
you were not. We must we must take this moment
to shout out Millie Jackson to come on, it must
be done. It must be done lyrically. Her presence on stage,
(30:06):
her the growl, and her voice, all of it. Grace Jones,
I mean, yes, yes, there is this. Uh it's a
fear of our sexuality. That drives me absolutely insane. It
drives me crazy. You're allowed to be smart, you can
(30:29):
be smart, Okay, but I remember, um, well, I'm thinking
Angela yee, that's not her name, Angela right, Angela right? Politics, yes, politics,
Angela right. When people realize that she was a hottie,
(30:50):
they didn't know what to do it, They didn't know
what to do with it. Yeah, you should hear her
stories of having a shut nicks down. It's crazy to me.
You're not to be or. It's not so much that
you're not allowed, it's just uncomfortable for people. When you
allow yourself to be all of yourself, you have to
(31:10):
pull back in some way, shape or form. I particular
for her because she is mixing together two things that
people can't. People's brains are exploding. It's like, oh, I
talk about politics and religion because she's also a very
devout Christian, talk about politics and religion. And I'm about
(31:31):
to put this dress on and show y'all how snatched
this waist is and give you all this glamor. You
interviewed her. I remember that night, and she was dynamic.
It has been dynamic sense. But to see how things
have have have moved forward for her. But like I said,
pulling together those two worlds for people, you know, it
(31:53):
might be able to handle it in music, but if
you're doing handle it music, But y'all trying to handle
it in music. They pretend there's been more discussions about
whop in the last You Know a Girl months. Um.
I remember when I first heard what I was taken
(32:14):
aback by the lyrics. Quite frankly, I wasn't ready myself.
Why did it feel different than uh, any random Little
Kim song? I'm just using a Little Kim as an example, like,
why do you feel I remember being excited by Little Kim?
Mhm Um. I think it had a lot to do
(32:35):
with the word play. We need you, I think, yeah
we should. Yeah, I think it had a lot to
do with the word play. I'm I'm you know, I'm
also a reader a writer, and um, I like word
play and I think that there was a lot of
it there with Little Kim. Yeah. I didn't feel that
necessarily from wop um. Everything seemed to be pretty straightforward
(33:00):
word right, just come get this wet ass pussy. Yeah, well,
I don't know, Like Kim was pretty straightforward to it.
She was like, you know, I'm gonna watch my stories
while you eat my pussy. That's pretty straightforward. Yeah, but
it'll come came to the picture. So you basically are
saying something about lyrics curiously, like somebody is obviously a
better lyricist to you in a sense of just right.
(33:22):
There's the reason why I gravitated towards it. I just
because Kim I saw pictures, and for why I heard
words to lyrics, I mean to a rhythm. Yeah, you
don't get all you get your feelings hurting and all
in your back my feelings. I'm talking like you. I'm
(33:44):
other people listen, other people listen to Asia. You know
you guys are sometimes um but you know that's the
way I feel. I'm a I'm kind of I'm a
lyricist fan. I like I like that put together in
a way. I mean, I wrote Crown Royal. You know
(34:05):
I thought it was visual. You know I can do that.
It is I could be wrong. Your hands on my
hips pull me right back to you. I'm sorry. I
have a whole part is when it's no. My part
is when it's hell you you I don't it's not
it's not. It's you don't say you It's like he you,
(34:26):
you don't. I don't know what you say when you
say I flipped ship something to the lip, I say
a lip, himp dip and I'm twisted in your hands
and your lips and your tongue tricks and you're so thick. Yeah,
it's it's nasty as a song is nasty. However, however,
(34:50):
yes it is. It is. It is woven together in
a lyrical little meal that is fantastical. However, we just
like when we because I doubt anybody on this line
was like, I cannot stay. I'm not saying you can
lick it, you can stick it, you could taste it.
I'm talking every drip drop. Don't you waste it like
that was? That was some hot ship when it came out.
(35:13):
Was in that was a Canelli put it in your mouth.
And I wasn't there for that. He wasn't He wasn't
here for that. I'm gonna tell you that I was.
I was late to the Kim Train. I was actually
late to the little Kim Train when it first came out.
I was a little taken aback, I got a little
(35:36):
I got slightly. It was a lot. I got slightly
united Methodists when I heard you know what I'm saying.
I'm on Man Dreams, A Sucking R and B Dick.
But listen, I was late when I first got there.
I wasn't ready. Okay, it was a lot for me. Okay,
As I got older, I was like, okay, Kim was
(35:58):
all someothing. But also to further down the when I
got to other songs, radio hits, the radio hits, I
was like, boom, but I had to work up to
listen to the album versions was not lie. I had
to work up to it. But again, if we're raising
(36:27):
young women these days, to honor these women, these iconic
figures within this industry, and we know that we're at
you know, Auntie age around this time, and we have
other young girls who are coming, young women who are
coming into this business, we have to offer them the space,
(36:48):
uh in evolved space, a space that says that you
no longer have to fight this same fight to be
yourself and be who you are. And I never forget um.
Chris Rock talked about how you know he was this
world famous comedian and he lived next door to a
dentist and that you know wife folks get a chance
(37:10):
to be mediocre. All right. Everybody is not gonna necessarily
have the same level of um access to that kind
of lyrical prowess, you know what I mean. But they
do have an audience and they do have an artistic
voice for some reason. Let me let me for some reason,
(37:30):
if I say anything, it's it's a speaking out, some
speaking out against something or other than I'm not thinking.
I don't have any problem at all. Want your earthie
perchase somewhere. That's what they say. They say, you on
your earthie perch somewhere. Just you know that I made that.
Shut up. It was just a translation of what I
(37:50):
think I mean. I guess there are people that think
that that's fine. I don't know what to tell you.
I'm a whole person. W h o l e w
h oh. That's not how my raining would have said there,
But listen, I'm a whole I love it. It would
(38:18):
have been. And she speaking to anybody because all of herself,
she allowed herself to be herself. She was not afraid
of those folks that were trying to put her in
boxes or confine her to anything. And black people, a
lot of black people did not like her. I'm glad
you said that, because I wondered thinking here, like in
(38:40):
retrospect we can all have this kind of level of respect.
But like if she was to come out right now,
what where where would we be on the side of
the coin, Because like I told you, I was slowed
to the chim train. Yeah, I was slowed to the
Billy Holiday train. Wow. All right, yeah, you know that's
(39:04):
what I'm saying. Like I saw how would she be received?
Lady Sings the Blues before I actually saw uh before
I heard of Billie Holiday music. But that's fair, that's
I think that's some eighties baby ship. But yeah, yeah,
And I didn't catch on until what that was until
I got my feelings hurt. Once I got my feelings
hurt and listened to Billy Holliday, I was like, oh,
(39:28):
I see what this is. Yeah, but I didn't get
it until then. Yeah. I think we're always going to
end up in some kind of Auntie position when it
comes to two songs like like wap you know, um,
I had to bring that up again. I just feel
like we're always gonna come up with something that people
(39:50):
are gonna feel like there's a judgment or an anti
thing happening. I just like what I like, you know,
I was just gonna. I also try to keep aware
of the steady evolution of sexuality in media, because I
always used the whole thing of like at some point
when margat Gay came up with sexual Hill and my
fucker was like, wow, no, that's too much, turn it down.
So now I'm like, here, we are forty years later.
(40:11):
What the funk do I expect? We are twenty years
after Little Kim Yeah, wet ass pussy, that's about right. Wow,
we are twenty years after Little Kim and and it's
always fun in games until you see it, until you
hear a three year old singing it. Yeah, I don't
never want you'll be like, oh yes, yes, ladies, you'll
(40:31):
be at I have some songs on my next project
that I'm like, oh I know, no, oh no, no,
we do give it, give it. It's the next level,
Crown Royal, because we're here for that. You gotta evolve,
you know, at this age, nasty Jail is the only
Jill I'm interested in. How about that? How about that
that I need Nasty Jill consistently in my life Unless
(40:53):
you gotta you about to lose your job remix because
I'm looking. I've been looking, waiting for something or to
do that for me. But that's fine. You know, whatever
mix is not needed. The original is a classic. It
is she is, she does classic. An iconic woman. I'm
just joking because she had the triflate part. That's what
I'm out what she called it, triflate. Hmm, what's you thinking,
(41:16):
jail over there? I was thinking of some more iconic women,
um in this music industry. I'm wow, we're talking about
women that may change. You know, I've heard that name
damn near my whole life. I've heard that name my
whole life. I'm gonna throw a Beyonce in the hat.
(41:36):
That is absolutely as she should be. Might be fine, fine, fine, fine.
I've never seen anybody anywhere work harder than that lady ever.
I know, you know, musicians that work with her and
that level of of business, that level of professionalism. I
(42:01):
every time I've ever seen her perform anywhere, I I
get chill bumps. I'm stuttering. See she's taking that Diana
Ross formula next level. It's amazing. She's amazing, She's amazing,
and she's introduced so many different kinds of music and
different kinds of visuals um that are healthy. And every
(42:24):
time I think, I think, I think what she has done,
and she has kind of mixed together what used to
be the pop trifecta and put it into one artist.
You know, they're used. Madonna was known as a chameleon,
where she would figure out what was going on in
the underground and bring it to the mainstream. Beyonce has
(42:45):
done that consistently. Then Michael Jackson was a person who
brought um just a dynamics of stage performance and dance
into his artistry, beyond just the fact that he was
an amazing singer and everything. And she has been able
to like turned I mean that the Michael Jackson mentality.
I mean, she's taking that to the very next level
(43:06):
in my in my opinion, humbly, you know. And then
you talk about just straight flatfoot singing that part. But
she was saying earlier, she both like how you both
She thrice the we're gonna keep, We're gonna end up
(43:36):
um forgiving ourselves at times, you know, I We're gonna keep.
We're gonna keep forgiving ourselves as we continue, because we're
gonna say the wrong thing sometimes and it's wrong because
we're trying to advance past it. So you know, when
you know that something is baige, you don't want to
keep calling it white, you know what I mean? You
(43:57):
want to learn what it is and then move moved
towards that, move towards the truth, or moved towards um
a place where people can feel happy and healthy and
um seen. And I certainly want you to have all
of your sexuality. I certainly want you to be all
(44:23):
of you. I do what else is there? I'm super
proud of these women that um that they weren't then
that they've never been doing it for me. You know,
they did it because that's where, that's where, that's who
they were. It's so much so much better to go
ahead and be who you are. I mean, that is
(44:48):
I mean, that is the pathway to being iconic. Is
it not? What is not? My phone says uh, Small
minds can't comprehend big spirits. To be great, you have
to be willing to be mocked, hated and misunderstood. Stay strong.
(45:08):
It is the mic Onna floor is the mic Gonna floor.
The mic is on the floor. How do you eat
(45:36):
an elephant? One by it? Time. What's up everybody. I'm Eaves,
a producer on the show, and it's resource time. Okay,
so we have a lot today. Joe would like to
point you to Queer Cultural Center dot org, which has
information on the importance of My Rainy. You can check
(45:58):
out the Netflix film A Rainy's Black Bottom as well.
And for the love of all that is black and beautiful,
please read or go see in August Wilson Play. If
you ever have the chance, and while I'm one that note,
go support small theaters, female directors and emerging actors. And
then there's all of the people that Jill, Asia and
Layah mentioned today. If you don't know about some of
(46:20):
these people and groups like Millie Jackson, LaBelle, Cathy Hughes,
and Valerie Simpson, go look them up and learn a
little bit more about their work. If you already do
know a little something about them, I'll drop some leaks
in the episode description. Thank you for listening to Jill
(46:42):
Scott Presents j dot il the podcast. This podcast is
hosted by Jill Scott, Laya st Clair, and agent Graden Danceler.
(47:06):
It's executive producers are Jill Scott, Shawn j and Brian Calhoun.
It's produced by Laya St. Clair and me Eve Jeff Coke.
The editing and sound design for this episode we're done
by Taylor Chaquoin. Listen, you ain't gonna look too far
for Ashbrod and Simpson any motown discography. Just just checked
(47:32):
out to get by all I need. That's the Aretha version,
but she wrote it. But that's that's iconic. You wrote
a song that Marvin Gaye, Diana Ross, and Aretha Franklin
all recorded, and all all three versions are different. Bye Bye.
(47:57):
J dot Ill is a production of i HA Heart Radio.
For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit the i
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows
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