Kathy Kinney

 Meet Craig’s dear friend Kathy Kinney. She is an American actress, voice actress, and comedian. In the late 1990s she starred in the sitcom The Drew Carey Show as Mimi Bobeck, the outrageously made-up, flamboyantly vulgar, and vindictive nemesis of Drew Carey. This is a good one. EnJOY!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
My name is Craig Ferguson. The name of this podcast
is Joy. I talk to interest in people about what
brings them happiness.

Speaker 2 (00:11):
Here's Kathy Kenney.

Speaker 1 (00:13):
She played Mimi Terror and Blue Eyeshadow on The Drew
Carey Show and Joy. All right, Kathy, you're on this
podcast because you are a joy in my life.

Speaker 2 (00:29):
Why.

Speaker 1 (00:29):
There's nothing I like better than the hearing the sound
of you sucking on.

Speaker 2 (00:33):
A lozenge, clicking it against your teeth. Kathy, you are
a joy.

Speaker 3 (00:42):
Now.

Speaker 1 (00:42):
I wanted to talk to you about joy because you
are good at it.

Speaker 3 (00:47):
I've thought about joy a lot.

Speaker 1 (00:50):
It's because you're from the Midwest and you're chronically depressed
in reality.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
I think that it is.

Speaker 3 (00:55):
I don't know, you know, I think that I've always
been one of these people who who's very Pollyanna, which
can be a four letter word, you know, Pollyanna. Don't
you know. I'm not chooting my own horn, but I
but I feel like I need to explain the joy thing.

Speaker 1 (01:13):
You know.

Speaker 3 (01:13):
I wrote a book with my best friend Cindy Rats laugh.

Speaker 2 (01:18):
I remember Cindy Rat's laugh.

Speaker 3 (01:20):
Yeah, that's her real name.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
Yeah, Because she I would sometimes say she's all women,
But then you would say, no, no, no, it's Peggy Ricey.

Speaker 2 (01:27):
It's all women.

Speaker 3 (01:29):
I like to keep your memory in line. But yeah,
they're both all women. Really, yeah, I suppose that is true. Yeah,
I know when you think about it. Yeah, But Cindy
and I wrote a book called Ready, Queen of your
Own Life, The grown Up Woman's Guide to Claiming happiness
and getting the life you deserve.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
That's great. Is anything left for the book once you
finish the title?

Speaker 3 (01:49):
No, And that's what having an editor does for you.
By the way, because I just I might have called
it the book, but you know, she Chaffy's book, the
book with a friend, Peggy, Cindy and ath.

Speaker 2 (02:01):
See. Now I've got Peggy Risky in my mind because
she's all woman.

Speaker 3 (02:04):
She's all woman.

Speaker 2 (02:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:06):
The reason why I said that is because I met
her with you and I said that Peggy Risky, she's
all woman.

Speaker 3 (02:11):
Is that what I said? Yes, you did. And it's
funny because I just told somebody the other day. Sometimes
Craig thinks it's Cindy and he goes, Cindy, rats last,
she's all woman, And then I go, no, that's Peggy Risky,
that's all woman. Oh right, right, you go. And then
we've had this conversation we.

Speaker 1 (02:26):
Have and here's the thing. They're both all women, Yes
they are. Yeah, I know, I just and from the Midwest, right,
indeed are you? So I could say, Kathleen Kenny, she's
all women from the Midwest, now, but you're from them?

Speaker 2 (02:40):
I see.

Speaker 1 (02:41):
I think the Midwest is misrepresented in American popular culture,
and I will tell you why, because I think the
Midwest is quite scary.

Speaker 3 (02:52):
Serial killers.

Speaker 1 (02:53):
Yeah, beer, cheese, what's scary? Well, I'm beer scary to me.
Cheese can sell. I know cheese can be scary to
you because you can be a bit lack toast Tootsie.

Speaker 3 (03:05):
More than a bit.

Speaker 1 (03:06):
Yeah, And serial killers are just nobody's idea of fun
except people who do podcasts. Apparently, people who do podcast
there's a lot of podcasts about serial killers.

Speaker 3 (03:15):
That's true. Yeah, you know, I grew up not in
the same era, contrary to popular belief about my age,
but I grew up about twenty five miles from where
ed Gean slaughtered people and offered Hitchcock based psycho on
ed Gar ed.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Gean really to ddress up as his mom and stuff.
You spit out your loss.

Speaker 3 (03:35):
And I am because I'm getting ready to talk about joy,
so I don't want to get the los Andes stuck
on the microphone.

Speaker 2 (03:41):
See when you were playing Mimi. I remember when you
were playing Mimi on the Drew Carey Show.

Speaker 1 (03:45):
I realized, now, it's rare that I've seen you not
drinking with a straw, because you always have to have
a straw.

Speaker 2 (03:52):
When you had that makeup on I remember that, do
you remember?

Speaker 1 (03:55):
Yes, Obviously you'd be like, you'd be talking, talking, and
then you'd go.

Speaker 2 (04:00):
And your little straw.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
Anyway, so you grew up next to Edgen. The siou
Kella that was based on ed.

Speaker 3 (04:07):
Gen, but surprisingly with a positive attitude, which eventually now
you tell me, here's why we wrote that book. Because
I would go places after I you know, when I
was on the Drew Carrey Show and after and people
would say, you're on TV, I'd love to see your hosts.

Speaker 1 (04:28):
Well, like people that we're in your neighborhood and stuff. Well,
it's just everywhere everywhere. People who didn't and people would
say things like are you that movie star? And I'm like, no,
I'm a TV whore, completely different.

Speaker 2 (04:41):
It's not really, it's kind of the same.

Speaker 3 (04:43):
It is the same. But I wrote that book with
Cindy because I really believe that we are all more
alike than different. You know, I empty the litter box
one turd at a time, just like everybody else.

Speaker 2 (04:56):
Now here's the thing. I never empty the letter box.

Speaker 3 (05:01):
I don't even have a cat.

Speaker 1 (05:02):
Oh well, see that, you win. But if I had
a cat, do you know if a cat thought you
did have a cat?

Speaker 3 (05:06):
Oh? You know there's some thing about pets is they
all die?

Speaker 2 (05:09):
Yeah, I know it's terrifying.

Speaker 3 (05:11):
But here's the thing. Joy, I've thought about it a lot, right, Okay,
because I had joy when I came and saw you
at the Brea Improv because I hadn't seen you in
maybe four or five years or five years, and there
you were in your full comic glory, and you were

(05:33):
so funny and you it reminded me of all the
good times that we had on the Carry Show.

Speaker 1 (05:40):
We did have good time, we did, you and I. Yeah, no,
I mean it wasn't. It wasn't a good time there.

Speaker 2 (05:44):
All the time.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
No, but you and I always said a good time
riding around in the cart going yeah, yeah, that's right,
making noises.

Speaker 1 (05:51):
We would make noises because we had these little golf
carts and we would ride around the Warner Brothers law
and go to Western Town.

Speaker 2 (05:58):
Yes at the back.

Speaker 1 (05:59):
Why did we go with the We used to get
frozen yogurt and go for a run in the car.

Speaker 2 (06:03):
I think we were bored. I think we were bored too.

Speaker 1 (06:06):
I think I was bored because all I did on
the Drew k Show every now and again is I'd
run on and go gettio fired and then maybe that's enough.
Not that pen, yeah you need the the wrong pen,
but that they would do occasionally things like that, and
you would do a lot more work than me.

Speaker 2 (06:25):
But you were nicest to me on that show.

Speaker 3 (06:27):
Yeah, I think that. I My heritage is Scottish, Yeah,
for sure. Well Kenny Kenny, Kenny's Irish. I think I
think pro Irish. Actually, you know, one of my cousins
traced it all the way back through Ethel the Acrobat,
who evidently married into our family. Wasn't one of my
personal relatives.

Speaker 2 (06:47):
But this was her name, the acrobat.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
Ethel the Acrobat was how she was builled.

Speaker 1 (06:54):
Right, and and she she was in vaudeville.

Speaker 3 (07:00):
Evidently there was a picture of her sitting on her
husband's shoulder with her hand in the air right. And
then there was a third guy in the act. I
don't know if he swallowed swords or fire.

Speaker 1 (07:10):
Right, So it was some weird manajatoire with Ethel her
husband and the sword swaller.

Speaker 3 (07:15):
She was an acrobats. Anyway, my cousin, one of my cousins,
traced it all the way back. We're sort of from
that hinterland of Scotland and Ireland. Oh yeah, it was
McKinney and it was. But my family could never stand
anyone place, so they they all migrated towards the potatoes

(07:36):
and to Ireland and then and then to New York
and then and Canada, which is why I gave everybody.
My aunt wanted to know how much Native American we
were so she could gamble at the casinos. So I
gave everybody that the DNA spit in the tube thing,
it was one percent for her.

Speaker 2 (07:52):
You're one, are you one percent?

Speaker 3 (07:54):
No?

Speaker 2 (07:54):
I was zero.

Speaker 3 (07:56):
Just it ended with her. But so she was angry.
And she also found out that we're mostly we're French
and Irish. But she found out when after spitting in
the test tube that she was twenty one percent English
and only sixteen percent Irish, and it made her very
angry because you know how the Irish feel about the English.

Speaker 1 (08:15):
Yeah, that would you'd be conflicted to find out you're
somebody that you're not that fond of.

Speaker 2 (08:20):
Yeah. I got that in my own life when I
was drinking. I found out I.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
Was somebody It's not that bond though, and that's why
I had to get sober. You're a person who I
think of is you're not an alcoholic or anything, but
you're someone who I think of as being weirdly. And
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because
I mean it's a compliment. Sober you seem to me
someone who has gone through difficulties personally, emotionally maybe and

(08:46):
kind of come out the other side into joy. Well,
certainly it's a clarity.

Speaker 3 (08:51):
You see how I'm I keep trying to bring a back.

Speaker 1 (08:52):
Yeah, no, it's good you're keeping it on message, but
I tend not to do that.

Speaker 3 (08:57):
Yeah, that's okay. I agree with Do I think that,
you know, surviving the Midwest and yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:06):
Many people are very happy and comfortable.

Speaker 3 (09:08):
Yeah, and you know, if I went back there, I
wouldn't I mean one time, a couple of years ago,
I was on your doing your radio thing, and you
asked me if I had any interest in moving back
to where I was from, and I said no. But also,
you know, they have snow up beyond your hairline there,
and I just I can't do that anymore. But I
think that everybody gets a chance to survive their childhood.

Speaker 2 (09:33):
And was your childhood difficulty you think I.

Speaker 3 (09:35):
Think it was. You know, I had a good time.
I don't mean to fling the word joy out so often,
but you know, I was an only child and I
still am.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
And you know, you think there's any chance that you
guessing anything.

Speaker 3 (09:49):
I don't know. You know, my mother was adopted, so
that was why we did all the spin like that. Yeah,
that didn't help anyway. There were no other children. I
already knew that. But my father was ill, and he
was when you were a kid, when I was a kid,
from the time I was five until I was fifteen
when he died. And you know, I come from that

(10:11):
weird Irish family that everyone neglected to tell me that
he was dying. And then one day I came home
and he was dead, and I was like, oh, it
was so surprising, but it was wrong. He had emphysema.
Oh wow, he had bronchial asthma. But then he had emphysema,
and of course everybody smoked, and I remember being a
kid saying I'm never going to smoke, and then promptly

(10:35):
after he died, I began smoking. Because we're so self destructive.

Speaker 1 (10:39):
No, I think that's also you're probably in a law
of grief because you know, it's difficult, particularly if you
come from the kind of background that we kind of
both come from. Then grief is it's like I it's
very bad, and then you stop, and that's and I don't.
It's never been my experience. I mean, I was still
grieving about my parents dying, and it's years and years

(11:00):
and years ago. It never goes away, it just becomes different. Yeah,
it's funny.

Speaker 3 (11:05):
I think that this country is just not very good
with grief, and I know that my family in particular
wasn't because my father died and then we didn't mention
him again. Yeah for twenty twenty five years.

Speaker 2 (11:17):
That's kind of like the mafia.

Speaker 1 (11:18):
Yeah, that's well, that's like the healthy Yeah, as though
I mean he's like, you have the wake and then
it's done, and then you move on.

Speaker 3 (11:25):
Then you move on. Yeah, And I think you know,
one time I had a massage, one of these deep
tissue massages after I moved to New York.

Speaker 2 (11:32):
I was going to say, you didn't get that, No.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
Not in the Midwest, and you probably could now though
you could would involve beer and geez. I imagine.

Speaker 2 (11:41):
I don't know.

Speaker 3 (11:41):
I had a few serial killers, but I had this,
and I didn't realize how armored I was until I
had that deep tissue massage. It's like so painful and
the release of I think I was just clenched since
my father died.

Speaker 2 (12:00):
Yeah, because were you close to your dad?

Speaker 3 (12:02):
I was. My mother was an unusual woman, and I
think that my father and I were always like, oh,
she's kind of different. Okay, in what way was she unusually?
She was adopted, right, but I mean a lot of
people are on her birth certificate when she was born.
She was born one year after they stopped putting the
word Bastard on birth certificates.

Speaker 1 (12:24):
I'd written after my name.

Speaker 3 (12:27):
I thought that was your middle name, Craig Bastard ferguson stuff.
I like podcasts because you can say things like bastard.

Speaker 2 (12:36):
You can't say bastard. Yeah. Yeah.

Speaker 3 (12:38):
So my mother never believed that she was loved ah,
and that's something that she hung onto all her life.
You know, you tell yourself these stories to get by
in life. And I think that any clarity that you
see in me is because I told myself lots of stories, like,
you know, you're not attractive, you're not smart, you're not funny,

(12:58):
you're not you know, all the not just fill in
the blank. And then because I sort of got that
from my mother. And then, you know, one day in
the Midwest. I've cleaned this up a little bit, but
it's called poop or Get off the Pot. Well, in
the book, we wrote poop or Get Off the Pot
about how you feel about yourself. And you know, one

(13:20):
day I thought, oh, I am brilliantly funny. And after
Drew Carry's show, you know, I own my own home,
I'm worth some money. Anybody would be lucky to have me.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
You're fabulously wealthy.

Speaker 3 (13:35):
Yeah, yeah, you're flous fabulous. Yeah I'm not. One time
I said I want to be Drew Carrey wealthy and
he said, well, you're Kathy Kidney wealthy, and I go,
I am, but it's not the same, trust me. But
I made the decision that I was pretty good. And
you know, there's a grace that comes from letting go

(13:56):
of the pain of your childhood and moving forward.

Speaker 1 (14:00):
Word, was there any formal kind of ceremony or program
or system that you went through to move from the
pain in your childhood? Was kind of like it because
there wasn't a rehab or anything like that, right, No, I.

Speaker 3 (14:14):
Mean there was alcohol, drugs.

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Did you you did all that then, Candy?

Speaker 3 (14:18):
Oh god, yeah, I mean I was in a lot
of pain. Like I said, they neglected to tell me
that my father was going to die, so it was
very shocking. And then the thing, I'd always wanted to travel,
and so I just slowly jocking myself in the position
so that I could travel.

Speaker 2 (14:36):
And that's what you became an actress. And that was
an accident though that wasn't because I don't really believe
in accidents like that.

Speaker 3 (14:44):
You tell me, well, that's that's the point, and here's
here's the point. But as we slide slide in towards joy,
you know, the only skills I had when I was
in Wisconsin was I was a bartender, right, and dirt
bag bar that used to be called Cora Nimchek's Long Branch.

(15:05):
It wreaked a vomit from lumberjacks who had puked there
back in eighteen thirty nine, and it just soaked in.
So I was eighteen and I was, you know, the
bartender there right. And my other skill I went to
college and I put myself through college as a carpenter
in the scene shop.

Speaker 2 (15:23):
Wow, I don't know, I've never seen you.

Speaker 3 (15:26):
Oh I'm good at carpentry. Okay, I'm good with power tools.
So when I was in college, these are my two
skills bartending. And I'm not talking about can you make
me a Manhattan? I'm talking about, you know, whiskey beer
and a shot of Schnops's.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
Content is Everything else is just conversation.

Speaker 3 (15:46):
Like I was the head bartender for weddings at Bernard's
Supper Club and they'd say, what do you got? And
I go, I got beer, I got brandy, I got squirked,
and I got brandy and squirked and they go, Oliver
brandy and.

Speaker 2 (16:01):
Can you have a square on his own? I'm asking
for a friend.

Speaker 3 (16:04):
It's a grapefruit. Oh okay, it's a very prominent grapefruit.
So I thought it was so when I left there
and I got a free ride out to Manhattan with
the self esteem below sea level and these two skills
of the carpenter I wanted in the scene show.

Speaker 2 (16:19):
How did you get a free How did you get?
From Steven's point?

Speaker 3 (16:22):
I was friends with the woman who was a dance
teacher at the university, and she got a job teaching
at Amherst College. So she needed somebody to drive her
twenty six foot U haul from Wisconsin to Massachusetts. And
I had been driving this library show waggon around with
these vivid pictures on it, driving around to the smaller towns,

(16:43):
putting on plays because I was in the technical I
was a tech director.

Speaker 2 (16:48):
Oh right, so you have no yeah.

Speaker 3 (16:50):
No intention of acting whatsoever. So I drive her truck
out and we get out to New York and there's
a blackout immediately.

Speaker 2 (16:59):
A black in New York.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
I think I remember that that was in the eighties, yo,
back in the ages. A few black in New York
in the age, but I think I think there might
have been a city wide one.

Speaker 3 (17:10):
It went, this was city wide. And you know, I'm
that person who's had so many because again, my self
esteem was so low. I didn't think I could get
a job as a bartender in Manhattan. I didn't think
I was attractive enough. And besides, I know how to
make anything other than baron schnapps. You know, So I
had jobs that really, there's the book. You know, I

(17:33):
was living for a crippled X Vogue model.

Speaker 2 (17:37):
Well, you like that sounds like a Bay Davis movie.

Speaker 3 (17:39):
It was. It was awful, and I worked for art
carved diamond and class rings.

Speaker 2 (17:46):
Let's go back to the Betty Davis movie.

Speaker 3 (17:48):
Okay, I'm not sure, you really don't want any more
details on And then I'm you know, that was it?
Live in for a crippled X Vogue bedridden x Vogue model?
To you, No, she was bed ridden, I mean to her. No, No,
I thought about taking her life. It's the closest I

(18:08):
hope I ever come to taking anyone's life. Why because
I didn't think I deserved a better job.

Speaker 2 (18:17):
Why did you take the job killing her?

Speaker 1 (18:22):
Oh?

Speaker 3 (18:22):
Because she had ten pillows behind her head and she
go every night I go, okay, good night, I go
to bed. Three o'clock in the morning, she go catty, catty,
Cathy Okay, can you flatten the yellow pillow? Can you
roll the pink pillow? Can you plump the blue pillow?
Every night? Every night? And after about a month and
a half, you know, I stood there with that yellow pillow,

(18:44):
just shaking like because the part I'm leaving out all
this stuff. I mean, I'm not always prone to murder.

Speaker 2 (18:50):
But no, I've never discussed murder with you at all.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
No. She she had a thirteen year old daughter whose
bed butted into the side of her hospital bed. She
believed her daughter was the reincarnation of Judy Garland, and
she would torture the daughter. You know, I have to
go to the bathroom. I have to go to the bathroom.
That's all. I'm going to leave it until I had
to get up and handle it. The woman's bed ridden. Wait,

(19:16):
the daughter didn't help her go to the bathroom. She did,
but she was thirteen. Yeah, she was tired. It was
the middle of the night.

Speaker 2 (19:23):
What happened to the daughter, is she? Okay, you don't know.
Maybe you do know? This is getting too bad? Is
again litigious?

Speaker 3 (19:32):
Yes, litigious. They did run ent her on the street
one time after I left there, you know, and her
mother had finally passed away. She would medicate herself with dramamine,
which eventually will kill you.

Speaker 2 (19:44):
Yeah, but you won't feel nauseous.

Speaker 3 (19:46):
You know, you know you don't, or you won't be busy.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (19:54):
The Craig ferguson Fancy Rascals stand up to her continues
this fall. For tickets, go to the Craig Bergson Show
dot com slash tour see you on the road.

Speaker 3 (20:09):
This was my first job when I moved to New York.

Speaker 1 (20:11):
Yeah, that's a dark Sorry, we took a little dark gitur,
but you did when you were there, and then so
you were working as the then this Betty Davis movie,
and then you get a job as about ten.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
No.

Speaker 3 (20:21):
No, I never I never bartended, no because I didn't
think I was attractive enough. I was the receptionist for
art carved diamond and class rings and I was hungover.
I had one outfit. It was pink. I didn't have
a lot of clothes, and I sat behind bulletproof glass
and there was a button underneath my desk that if
someone came to rob it, because the vault was there

(20:42):
every day, I'd fall asleep, jerk set that thing off
and then wait and nobody ever came. That was the
scariest part. Yeah, that was a good job. Then I
worked at the American Psychiatric Association.

Speaker 2 (20:57):
Okay what it was a.

Speaker 3 (20:58):
New York County district brand, and I was the assistant
membership director and it went something like this. It was
just my friend Cindy Rats, laughing about she's all woman,
along with Peggy Resky. We're in a tiny little room
in the middle of Manhattan. And the phone would ring
and I would say American Psychiatric Association, which I did

(21:19):
in my sleep for years after that, and someone would go,
I need to talk to a psychiatrist. They have to
be on the Upper east Side, they have to have
blonde hair. They can only handle people who get seasick
and who are angry over something that happened in their childhood.
And I go, please hold, and I go, Cindy, it's
for you, and she goes, this is Cindy, and then

(21:41):
she go, oh okay, and they go through could you hold?

Speaker 2 (21:44):
And it was your turn?

Speaker 3 (21:45):
And I go, it was your turn?

Speaker 2 (21:46):
It was your And would you would do you would
kinsle people on the on the phone.

Speaker 3 (21:50):
We referred people to psychiatrists, which is why I've never
seen one. I have therapist.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
What's the difference. Let's finally put this to rest.

Speaker 3 (22:03):
Can give you drugs, right, And.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
I've certainly then in that case, I've talked to a lot.
I just they weren't in offices.

Speaker 3 (22:10):
They were in and they're heavily, heavily trained. They go
to school for years. A therapist you can pretty much
right away under the internet and a degree.

Speaker 1 (22:20):
My therapist for a long time. I think, you know,
we've discussed. I think I can't remember. I don't go
to therapy anymore. But when I did, she was a psychiatrist.
She could give drugs. She just didn't give me any
which is one of the reasons why I don't see
her anymore. Think, No, I don't. She never thought it
was necessary. Did you ever take psychotropics or any of

(22:42):
these things? Try to get yourself right?

Speaker 3 (22:43):
But somebody tried to put me on lithium or something
like that one. Yes, it was ridiculous. Yeah, it didn't nothing.
You know, I self medicated. And when I think about
all the things that I did and took to not
feel my grief, you know, to not feel about your dad,

(23:06):
about my dad, you know about my belief from my
mother that I was unlovable or you know, that that
low self esteem thing. You know, It's just it's fascinating
the things that we do did not feel our feelings.

Speaker 2 (23:19):
Yeah, it is remarkable.

Speaker 1 (23:20):
That's kind of why I wanted to do a podcast,
fully enough, called Joy, because I think that there has
been a tendency amongst in popular culture or people like
us who talk about things to talk only about the
negative emotions, which are which is valid, but that they're
not the only ones that exist. And one of the
reasons why I wanted to talk to you so early

(23:41):
on was because you're someone that very much lives in
the light. But you're very you know, you're you're didactic
about it, You're diligent about it, you're almost aggressive about
making sure you're it's okay. And you you did that
with me repeatedly when I was in the dark days

(24:02):
of it.

Speaker 2 (24:02):
Was on the Drew Carry Show and I.

Speaker 1 (24:03):
Was like, I can't go and see fucking Carry or
fired one more times.

Speaker 2 (24:08):
Drive me up the fucking.

Speaker 1 (24:09):
Wall, and you would always make me laugh and you
would cheer me up, which I've always been very grateful
for but also impressed by because you do it to
yourself too, don't.

Speaker 3 (24:19):
You I do you know I never talked about that book.
I mean, we wrote that book a long time ago.
But I love to travel. And Cindy had lost her
job and was sitting at home on the couch and
I would call and she would say, welcome to Walmart.
How may I help you? She was practicing and the
rest of the time she was eating potato chips. And

(24:40):
I dragged her on this trip to Prague, which we'd plan.
It was early December and we got there.

Speaker 2 (24:47):
The producer of the show is from very near Prague.

Speaker 3 (24:50):
Really, I love the Prague.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Tomas's he's from the Czech Republic.

Speaker 3 (24:54):
Yeah, I loved it. I had a fantastic, fabulous stories
about it later.

Speaker 2 (24:59):
No, no, no, tell us now what happened in Prague?

Speaker 3 (25:01):
We haven't in Prague was well, we were sitting in
this gorgeous hotel looking out over the Charles River, looking
at the castle.

Speaker 2 (25:08):
That was the name I was going to use if
I became a mophe star. What Charles River?

Speaker 3 (25:14):
Really? My stripper name is public Storage.

Speaker 2 (25:18):
Do you know?

Speaker 1 (25:21):
Do you know when I was a kid, I've never
told anyone that except Megan this before. When I was
a kid, when I was about ten years old. I
wanted to be called Al Shapiro. I wanted to be
an American and I wanted my name to be Al Shapiro.
And I wanted to have leather wristbands and a leather vest.

Speaker 2 (25:44):
And long hair. Yeah, I met friends.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
About Shapiro and I never want to be on Now.
I don't know why. That's stranger You get in your head,
isn't it.

Speaker 2 (25:56):
Yeah? Anyway, So you're in Charles Ver.

Speaker 3 (25:58):
Yeah, I'm looking out the castle. It's all lit, you know.
And before I left, I was like, my foot would
get hot at night and I was like quiet, and
I've kicked out the covers and I look, so what's
just one foot? So I'm like, what's this all about?
So I look it up and it says now that
you're a crone, you want to take yourself away from

(26:19):
your family so you don't harm them.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
And I was like, what's this?

Speaker 1 (26:23):
Yeah online, and I go and you have to get
away from your family, yeah.

Speaker 3 (26:27):
And this is yeah, I guess it was supposed to
me it was all about menopause, so I I guess,
you know, I mean, I don't know. But so I
get to Prague and I say to Cindy, you know,
I don't want to be the crone in the corner.
You know, men are the king of their their house.
I go, why can't we be the queen? Why can't

(26:48):
we be queens and wear crowns? And through that entire
trip through Prague, we every night, I always have this
New Year's Eve party, yes, and we say what do
you want to keep that's still working for you? And
what do you want to let go that isn't good?
And so every night sometimes we had goose and champagne,

(27:10):
and sometimes just.

Speaker 2 (27:11):
You always have goose and chapel.

Speaker 3 (27:12):
I love goose mit champagne. And it was Prague, you know,
and sometimes we just have you know, beer and bread, right,
And we would do this every night. And Cindy said,
I wish that I was the girl that i'd been
when I was eighteen and I had that courage and
I sold my bike and I took that money and
I moved to New York. And I've known her so

(27:33):
long that I could say, you still are, yes, that girl,
you still have that courage, yes, and so and it's
like you like I see you, but I see who
you were when you were a kid, like I see someone,
I go and I see what you the l Shapiro
with the leather.

Speaker 2 (27:51):
Bands, wrists and long long hair.

Speaker 3 (27:54):
Yeah, and that's what. So we had this ceremony every
night when we were in Prague where we would say
what do you want to let go? And what I
always want to let go is my low self esteem.
I believe that I'm not enough. And what I always
wanted to keep that's always always working for me is
my sense of humor.

Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yes, which you always had.

Speaker 1 (28:15):
I mean, I've seen you go from and it's quite
a remarkable thing. I've seen you like in frustration and
anger and to be in tears, and it's one of
the most satisfying things that I've been able to do
in my life is that they will always be able
to make you laugh and being able to remember when
you were a cat that.

Speaker 3 (28:35):
Was Yes, I too, it was.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
It was bad and I was.

Speaker 3 (28:40):
Talking about it because it was so sad and it
was I.

Speaker 1 (28:44):
Was still talking about that cat.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
My favorite when we don't sit in the makeup room
and you would come in and go can we talk
about me now? And go no, no, absolutely not. But
you were you just you know you this the other
day I just you're brilliantly funny and timeless, and that's
what is so appealing about you. And that's why, even

(29:09):
after not seeing you for five years, we could just
sit down at a lunch club and just like you know.

Speaker 1 (29:15):
I think that's what happens when you're when you're actually
friends with someone, but it's not show business friends, but
when you're actually friends. It's kind of because I can't
think of the last time we actually talked about work,
like you know.

Speaker 2 (29:27):
But that being said, you're in Prague, Cindy.

Speaker 1 (29:30):
Ratz last, Yes, who's old woman as much as Peggy
Risky is as much?

Speaker 2 (29:36):
And why did.

Speaker 1 (29:38):
You go with the Prague No no, wait, I always
wanted to go no, no, no, hold on, you're not in Prague.
I want to go back chronologically to get you through
to the Drew Carey Show because that's where I met you. Right, So,
you're in New York. You're working for this woman who
you didn't kill statute limitations, and.

Speaker 3 (29:57):
And then I had psychiatricause, I had psychiatric associated so
many jobs.

Speaker 1 (30:01):
And then so how come the acting then? Because does
that when you did the rach Andephobia when you were
in New York.

Speaker 3 (30:07):
Here's the point.

Speaker 2 (30:08):
That was a great movie.

Speaker 3 (30:09):
By the way, I loved that. I bought a Honda
Civic with that money from that. And also I learned
that spiders do not like lemon pledge. So if you
want to keep the spiders away from you, just spray
lemon pledge, like on the windowsill or something.

Speaker 2 (30:23):
Why don't they like lemon pledge?

Speaker 3 (30:25):
They just don't. But they wanted that big spider to
walk a straight line, so they just sprayed pledge on either.

Speaker 1 (30:30):
Side of it, and the spider was like, oh, nowhere
to go forward.

Speaker 3 (30:34):
Here's how my story escalates and brings me forward. Cindy
Rat's laugh hated to work by herself, which is why
I was at the American Psychiatric Association. It. She ended
up going to WCBSTV, the broadcast center in Manhattan, and
she hired me. I was the publicist for the Muppets

(30:56):
for a while, and then they moved me into her
I was a statistical typist, which was only funny because
I still don't type numbers very well. And there were
the three of us in one big room, and it
was Cindy, me and a guy named Bill Sherwood, and
we work for the heads of finance for WCBSTV. Okay

(31:16):
and Bill Sherwood wrote a movie called Parting Glances.

Speaker 2 (31:21):
Oh I see where We're going now?

Speaker 3 (31:25):
And Cindy took her tax money and she said, we're
going to quit our jobs and start teaching improvisation because
one of the many things that someone told her she
needed to do improvisation to be a good actor, but
she hated to do it. She wouldn't do it by herself.
So yeah, she made me go with her. And she
tells a story that within ten minutes, everybody knew I

(31:46):
was funny except for me.

Speaker 2 (31:48):
Yeah, and that was true.

Speaker 1 (31:50):
I think being funny is an interesting thing because there's
a lot of people who think they're funny who are
not funny at all. And there's a lot of people
who are funny who don't think funny thoughts.

Speaker 2 (32:01):
Do you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (32:01):
They don't think in that kind of here's something that's funny,
and like I don't think like that.

Speaker 2 (32:06):
Do you think you don't think like no, you know,
it's like, here's just just just funny.

Speaker 1 (32:09):
Yeah, it's just that I can't well if I am
for you see, there are people who will say, well,
he's not funny.

Speaker 2 (32:15):
And you go, well, not to you.

Speaker 3 (32:16):
You know that there was somebody who used to work
with that couldn't understand you or else she was gary. No,
maybe this was a woman that I think she was
just flirting with you, because we'd got to lunch and
she'd be there and then you'd say something and she'd go,
what do you say? And I go, he said, he
wants say some frozen yogurt, like I've never heard. I

(32:37):
can't hear your accent, right, you just I just hear you.

Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (32:41):
I think that that there was a time there in
the nineties where I probably sounded more schoetician than I do.
Not no, or it was fashionable to make fun of
people's accents. But then Shrek came along and Scottish people
became very attractive.

Speaker 3 (32:56):
Yeah, I guess that Shrek and all. So I ended
up working with this guy, Bill Sherwood, who wrote this
movie Parting Glances, Would You right, Yeah, which he put
me in with my friend Steve bussemi right.

Speaker 2 (33:09):
He's also had a bit of a career. Let's be honest.

Speaker 3 (33:11):
I thought you were gonna say he's also all woman.

Speaker 2 (33:13):
He's not much of a woman.

Speaker 3 (33:16):
I love him. He's one of those people. He's a
great guy who That's why I'm so happy to see you.
There's just a couple of people in my life who
I lost touch with that I cared about that. You
were one and Steve Bussemi is the other one.

Speaker 1 (33:29):
So we were actually in Prague the whole time together.
That's the weird thing. Steve and I were in Prague,
you were and every night we would have different things
on little grounds, a.

Speaker 3 (33:40):
Little gula, a little pillsner, whatever. So Steve, if you
hear this, call me. I have the same phone number.
And so I did that movie and an old friend
from high school was a manager out here in LA
and I came out and I started to get these jobs,
but I didn't know how to act. I was baffled

(34:02):
by the whole.

Speaker 1 (34:02):
They were really good acting. I think you do know
how I think you were acting. I think you probably
a lot of the acting because it's ten. I was
a bartender as well. Yeah, I think certain ways of
approach and bartending there's a certain personality that it works
for a performer.

Speaker 2 (34:18):
Because I got my work.

Speaker 1 (34:20):
I started by being a bartender and somebody saw me
the bar and said you should do this.

Speaker 3 (34:24):
Oh, well, see you remember for a nim Check's long branch, right,
Quirky Cluck bought it, so it was the Cluck Stop.
And I'm eighteen, and what I would get was old
men would come in there. One time, an old man,
to Carrie loved this story, offered me three dollars an
hour to come to his house, his apartment, three dollars

(34:47):
an hour.

Speaker 2 (34:48):
But is this just for sex?

Speaker 3 (34:50):
Oh yeah, but I had to wear a dress and
pretend that I was there cleaning the apartment because the
other women were so nosy, and so finally I just say, okay,
what day, four o'clock, All right, I'll be there because
I couldn't get rid of him.

Speaker 1 (35:04):
Right.

Speaker 2 (35:04):
You didn't go, though, No, No, but some.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
Reason three dollars and some reason Drew Carrey just thought
that was the funniest story story.

Speaker 1 (35:13):
I think it's it's shocking and awful and funny at
the same time.

Speaker 3 (35:17):
So that's the Midwest. So no, I never had any
kind of So you.

Speaker 1 (35:21):
Didn't work as a three dollars an hour house cleaning prostitute,
which is kind of the whole thrust of what I
was trying to get to the bottom of.

Speaker 3 (35:28):
People thought my mother sent my cousin after I did
move to Manhattan. My mother sent my cousin because she
thought that I was living there as a prostitute or something.
Is there anyone ever, even to this day that looks
or acts less like a prostitute than me?

Speaker 2 (35:44):
You know this may shock you, but I'm no expert
in this world. I don't know. I don't think. You
don't seem to come across prostitutey to me.

Speaker 3 (35:53):
I'm not saying that. You know that a string of
unusual men did not hit on me. And I'm unusual,
like Hasidic older Hasidic men and Greek deli workers. There's
like it's like somebody put a sign on my back
or something like that.

Speaker 2 (36:10):
You know.

Speaker 3 (36:11):
But yeah, no I survived.

Speaker 1 (36:14):
If all these unusual men are hit on you, yeah,
didn't that at least in some way help yourself.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Esteem a little bit?

Speaker 3 (36:20):
Oh god, no, I mean really, Oh no, you know
how like they go, you know how in Tutsi and
doesn't hoffen He says, so I have a little bit
of a mustache problem. And she said, well, some men
like that, and he he says, well, I don't like
men that like that. That's like I don't you know,
seventy five year old hasidic man. No, that's not my thing. No,

(36:41):
it didn't, none of it. Also, when you when you
make that firm decision that you are not good enough
and yes, I understand. And actually, and here's what happened.
Here's how it broke. Because I always had these voices
that were so Academy Award winning abusive. You know, Oh
my god, you're this or that, and.

Speaker 2 (37:00):
I'm the pillow. Yes, yes, I'm ye.

Speaker 3 (37:04):
So I was on this TV show, a guest star
on a TV show, Okay with Seinfeldt, And I was
on that show and I felt very kind of abused
on that show. And when I left there, as I
was driving home, this was before Drew Carrey, you know,
I thought, oh my god, you're so you're not funny

(37:26):
and everybody knows it, and you're stupid and you're ugly.
And I said to myself, i'm driving, can you leave
me alone for ten minutes till I get home, you know.
And I got home and I took off my clothes
and I got my kitchen timer and I laid down
spread eagle on my bed and I put that kitchen
timer on for ten minutes, and I said to that

(37:48):
negative voice, if you could take me down, do it go.
And it was like, oh, you're fat, you're ugly, you're stupid,
you're not funny, and the cats don't like you. Yeah,
and if you got another cat, that cat wouldn't like
you either, And and I go, is that the best
you can do? Really? Because it's not good enough? And

(38:10):
if you don't have anything good to say to me,
then don't say anything at all. I've had this grace period.
I'm not saying that in a time of crisis, that
voice doesn't come back and go hey, and I go no, No.

(38:30):
The recovery for me is that I only hear it
for like a minute and then it goes, oh yeah,
I can't say anything mean anymore. That was the start
of it for me. Really. So I owe Jerry Seinfeld
and that other guy you know that was on the show.
I owe them a lot. If they hadn't been kind
of mean to me.

Speaker 2 (38:49):
Is that what it was? They were mean to you?

Speaker 3 (38:51):
You know, there were the top of the heap at
that time. You know, I was nothing. I was the
woman at the handicapped spot. You know that I was
the blood that you know, I just talked, it's a
handicap with that. So, but that was a defining moment
for me, and since that moment, I've just I have

(39:12):
such acceptance of myself and ninety nine percent of the
people around me, which is why we're back to joy
seeing you. I think joy is one of those it's
a burst of an emotion, and that if you lived
in joy all the time, it would be like driving
around with your foot down with the gas pedal shoved

(39:33):
all the way to the floor, and it would be
burn you out. And happiness. So I think about these.
I think about joy and happiness and the one that's
most important to me, which is contentment.

Speaker 1 (39:46):
Okay, and apathia. They used to call it what they
called apatheia sense of serenity, maybe serenity.

Speaker 3 (39:56):
I like contentment. And have you ever heard I know
you've heard this. You know there's that saying God never
closes one door without opening another. And then somebody added,
but it's really a bitch waiting in the hallway, And
I have added, but if you can figure out how
to do it with grace and humor, you will have
accomplished something. Because we spend most of our time waiting

(40:20):
in the hallway. Yeah, and that's where the contentment comes in.
And happiness for me is something like right now, I
decided I wanted to sew these zipper bags, which is
only noteworthy because I don't know how to sew. So
I taught myself how to sew it.

Speaker 2 (40:36):
Your business for you zipper bags.

Speaker 3 (40:37):
Oh yeah, because I'm broke, and yeah no, I just
I collect fabric and every once in a while because
you feel like you have to do something with it.
So I'm sewing making these zipper bags, and I feel
I'm happy when I finally after watching fifteen YouTube videos, yeah,
I make one.

Speaker 1 (40:58):
And Megan's thing right now is crocheting hats. See yeah,
I see. It's like we have no kidding you. There's everybody.
You'll be getting a hat, good crocheted hat.

Speaker 3 (41:09):
I did crouche in knit. But it's southern California. Yeah,
there's no reason.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
That doesn't matter that one coming your way. There's tons
of them coming.

Speaker 3 (41:17):
But that's happy to me. An accomplishment, accomplishing something I'm trying, or.

Speaker 2 (41:23):
I think that's creativity there, being creative.

Speaker 3 (41:25):
And living a creative lifestyle, whether I'm acting or writing.
The next great American novel just you know this, Oh,
this bottle of water looks nicer on the shelf. Oh
there you go, right, you know, And that it's the
contentment and the contentment And here's the key is gratitude based.

Speaker 1 (41:47):
Yes, I think that's right. I think that gratitude is
the silver bullet. If you can somehow get to a
position of gratitude, then you're gonna be all right. But
it's hard, you know, it's I mean some people. I mean,
I think I wrestle with it. I don't wrestle with
gratitude so much because I've got a lot to be
grateful for. But I can imagine, you know, there are

(42:10):
some people. I hear the stories and I go, how
how do you find gratitude there? The story is so awful.
And the truth is they find it somehow, or they don't.
You're you're not talking to them, you know, Yeah, you
know what I mean. It's like they're not around you
have It's essential. And I think I thinks, and we've
talked about this quite a bit as well, that when

(42:30):
people say, when did you go over your ABC? When
did you go over your fear or your when did
you realize it was okay, or my favorite, when did
you realize you had made it in show business? And
you go, if you can use a phrase like made
it in show business, you know fucking nothing about show business.
Nobody makes it in show business forever, you know. I mean,

(42:53):
it's like what you did is you've had to run
a good luck enjoy it. It's gratitude, yeah, because it
is an odd thing that. So no, in your life,
where are you at? You're still doing the improv stuff
with those guys?

Speaker 3 (43:10):
I guess not. You know, I think that if I'd
have known that we did some big show in Vegas
and it.

Speaker 2 (43:17):
Was you, Drew and Colin and well Ryan.

Speaker 3 (43:21):
Plan was off and on the road, but Ryan, Greg Proops, Greg,
Jeff Davis right and assorted other people that would fill in.
But you know, we had some big, fabulous show in
Las Vegas and then that was sort of sort of it.

Speaker 2 (43:34):
You know, I didn't Yeah, who's lane?

Speaker 3 (43:37):
Is that?

Speaker 2 (43:37):
Anybody? Is that what they were calling that?

Speaker 3 (43:38):
Well, no, no, we couldn't call it that be cause
that was litigious. We've done that. So it was Drew
whose line was that it was Drew Carrey and provo stars. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
that's right, and so you.

Speaker 2 (43:54):
Know that was great.

Speaker 3 (43:55):
In fact, I was watching the news this morning twenty
years ago, this month or something, Shock and Awe, the
war in Iraq, and when yeah, you know.

Speaker 2 (44:06):
I was.

Speaker 3 (44:06):
I didn't find out TI later I was the first
woman entertainer in Iraq after Shock and Awe, and I didn't,
you know, I went, I love the USO. I just yeah,
they're amazing, so important. And then I went some other place.
I went to Saudi Arabia, did much and then you
and I went to the Persian Gulf.

Speaker 2 (44:23):
Yeah, Bahrain. Remember that night with the sailors.

Speaker 1 (44:26):
Oh my god, that was one of the worst and
weirdest shows in my life.

Speaker 2 (44:31):
We had.

Speaker 1 (44:32):
We did a show. We got to Bahrain, we were
jet lagged. We're doing a show for the us SO
and they said, actually, there's been a change of plans.
All the American servicemen are not being this all leave
his cancels. All we've got is an Australian mind sweeper
with three hundred drunken Australian sailors who have no fucking
idea who you are.

Speaker 3 (44:53):
They've been out to see for six months. All they
wanted to do is drink drink and sing, drink and sing.

Speaker 2 (45:00):
Unbelievable. I've never bowed so badly. You like you made
me you.

Speaker 3 (45:05):
I got up. I mean, I'm not even gonna stand up.
I get up and then go take off your blouse.

Speaker 2 (45:10):
Take off your blouse.

Speaker 3 (45:12):
And I go, no, you, and he did, and I
got to be fair.

Speaker 2 (45:16):
He did take off his blouse. I do remember.

Speaker 3 (45:17):
I didn't want to see you naked. But then then
you had that that guy with you from your show.
He had a guitar and he was saying, my sister
is a lesbian, and everybody now my sister. Oh, they're sick.
But this is my favorite part. You come up to
me and you go, don't even say anything about me,
just get up there. Because I was the MC. Just say,

(45:38):
you know, ladies, Craig Ferguson, I'm gonna burn their hair off.
You said to me, okay, And I get up and
I go, Craig Ferguson and I get down and you're like, hey,
you know, and I mean, you're so funny. But they
were so drunk and they were like and You're like, shit,
good night, and you were gone.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
I think for like thirty seconds.

Speaker 3 (46:00):
I was like oh and I ran back up, but
then every single one of them got in line for
an autograph.

Speaker 1 (46:05):
Yeah, I know, it was the weirdest thing. I mean,
but they were really dr I mean, god bless them,
they were. Yeah, they'd been at sea for three months.
And somebody told them. I think, actually they're commanding off.
Just said, now you blacks have going to go out
to this thing. The Americans have put it on an
act great though, they'll be free bear.

Speaker 3 (46:24):
Actually think it was that guy who introduced us that
sad it was, Yeah, I remember that. I think that
was it. So no, you know, I had that children's
character for a while. That was missus p profoundly fun
because I was improving for children. This was so tender
and sweet and clean. Now it's really fun. But I

(46:45):
wanted to take that to a bigger audience, and so
I go pitch it at Netflix. Can you say that on?
And they come back and they go, we love her.
She'd come back with them, and she wants but we
already have an older woman doing a green room kind
of shown. It was Julie Andrews. You can't really complain
of Julian and then that doesn't last. But here's what
I wanted to say, with gratitude, as with courage and bravery,

(47:09):
you act as if until you really have it.

Speaker 2 (47:13):
That's very good.

Speaker 3 (47:14):
But also about gratitude, I've discovered you have to start
really simple, Like in the morning, you wake up and
you go, I'm awake, I'm alive. That's good. And then
I have gratitude for my teeth. I'm always happy to
have teeth.

Speaker 2 (47:31):
Yeah, I mean the noise they make when I los
and bump against them.

Speaker 3 (47:34):
I'm going to get lodgs and jout again. And then
I'm grateful that I have toothpaste and a toothbrush, hair
and a brush. You know, I just start really simple
because I think that I think it's so easy for
us to say, oh my god, I'm so not enough.
I'm not Craig Ferguson, I'm not Kathy Kinney, I'm not this.

(47:58):
And the truth is, you know that we're more than enough,
and that that we just have to take a look
at it. It's so easy to say negative things and
tell a negative story.

Speaker 2 (48:09):
But that's why everyone doesn't.

Speaker 3 (48:11):
That's why everybody does it. But that's why it just
takes a little more work to be positive. And then
once you got it, you got to share it.

Speaker 1 (48:19):
I think it's interesting you say that because I think
people are negative, because negative it makes you sound smart,
like if you if you're negative, it makes you sound
like you're a detective or something like, yeah, well I've
noticed things and things.

Speaker 2 (48:32):
Aren't so good because I've noticed them, and you know.

Speaker 1 (48:34):
And I think if you, if you're happy, you kind
of sound a little dumber.

Speaker 2 (48:38):
Like did you see my sweater? It's got a picture
of a dog on it. But I think that's a lie.

Speaker 1 (48:43):
Yeah, because if you think, if you get really smart
people they're not negative.

Speaker 3 (48:48):
I think it's you know, I think people. I think
victims are glorified on TV a.

Speaker 2 (48:53):
Lot better a fatish right now.

Speaker 3 (48:55):
It's totally Midwest. I remember one time going home and
visit my mom and we went to see some friend
of hers. She said, oh, my grandma sat down on
the toilet on Friday night and she couldn't get up
and she sat there for two days.

Speaker 2 (49:12):
Or no trutal thing.

Speaker 3 (49:14):
It hurt. Yeah, And I was like, really, you know,
so I mean do people want to you know, it
sees stories. You see serial killers and you know, stuff
the stories like that, but you don't see as many
stories about I woke up, I had teeth, he's grateful.

Speaker 2 (49:35):
It's true.

Speaker 1 (49:36):
It's hard to make like a Netflix documentary about you know,
somebody who was nice to everybody. It's like, you know
the tender swindler, and you go, well, yeah, but most
people are in tender aren't swindlers. So it doesn't mean
that it's everybody's bad. It's just like, here's the bad
one and that's the story. And it's kind of I
understand it. Everybody's got to do a thing. But for like,

(49:59):
see you killers, we see what killers. Silence of the
Lambs is a great movie, and they should have just
stopped to that, just like that's it. It's fine cycle
Silence of the Lambs. Maybe every now and again, make
another one, but you don't have to keep glorifying these thickish,
pig shit evil killers. It's it's crazy why they're awful,

(50:23):
awful people.

Speaker 3 (50:24):
I had the news on and it was about the
anniversary of this chow chilla kidnapping. Twenty six little kids
on a bush and they were kidnapped and they were
like four or five years old, and one of them
was fourteen, you know, school bus and they kidnapped them,
these three men from wealthy families, three young men, kidnapped

(50:48):
them and buried them in a semi trailer under the ground.
And then we're going to ask for like I don't
know how much, millions of money or whatever. And then
and here's the thing. They figured out how to get out.

Speaker 1 (51:02):
You know.

Speaker 3 (51:02):
The one of the kids was fourteen, and they lifted
him up and he got them all out of there,
and those streets all yeah, and they were fine, you know,
I mean physically find subscripes and bruises and things like that.
But it's one of those things that you don't get
over easily because it shakes your trust. Yeah, But don't
you think that that same thing true for childhood shakes

(51:24):
your trust a little bit?

Speaker 2 (51:26):
Yeah, because I think that, you.

Speaker 1 (51:28):
Know, part of the loss of innocence is realizing that
everyone is flawed. I mean, my sister lenn, who you know,
I think has a very nice take on this. She said,
you get to blame your parents till you're thirty, and
then after thirty.

Speaker 2 (51:43):
It's you and you go shit.

Speaker 1 (51:47):
But I think that's kind of it kind of has
to be that at what point you're going to shake it,
no matter how bad. It it's been I mean, and
it has been bad, and some people.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Just can't shake it. And I understand.

Speaker 1 (51:58):
I'm not saying you have to or laying down a
manifesto for anyone, but I know for myself that and
also when you have kids, you realize that bad you're
fucking up.

Speaker 2 (52:11):
Yeah, oh no, God, this is going to leave a mark.
I'm going to hear it.

Speaker 1 (52:15):
But that's in therapy, you know, it's for the most part.
I think people try their best for the most part. Yeah,
some people just.

Speaker 3 (52:23):
I think I think everybody does ninety nine zero point
nine percent. But you know, I was at some having
like a physical, you know, healer thing, and she said,
I want you to think back three lifetimes ago.

Speaker 2 (52:36):
Oh.

Speaker 3 (52:36):
I was like, I mean, does she mean when I
was Cleopatra or you know, somebody else, or does she
mean I mean I could so clearly see my parents,
their parents, the parents, you know, the things that they
had suffered and what had been brought to me. Yeah,
And I thought, oh my god, we just were so

(52:58):
And again this brings me to that either you are
lucky enough to have the grace to step away and
get over your childhood or not.

Speaker 2 (53:08):
Yeah, I think that's right.

Speaker 1 (53:09):
I think what I've noticed now there's a contemporary desire
to inflict shame on people. I think that there's a
you know, if you don't think like me, if you
don't agree with me, if you don't share my veltan shaum.

Speaker 2 (53:33):
It's a German word for a worldview.

Speaker 1 (53:35):
Yeah, but the idea is to make someone I suppose
for one.

Speaker 2 (53:40):
Of a better word.

Speaker 1 (53:40):
You call it canceled culture. But I don't think that's
a real thing. I think what it is is shame.
It's like to try and take the joy from somebody else,
Do you know what I mean? It's like so if
you are and people do it to themselves too, don't
you think I do? You know that the idea of
you know, I'm ashamed of what not succeeding, that's like,

(54:03):
that's like being ashamed of every time you swing for
a pitch and miss it. That's crazy. That's crazy to
feel shame for failure. There's appropriate. What I'm trying to
get I think is there are appropriate things to feel shame for,
and there are inappropriate things to feel shamed for.

Speaker 2 (54:17):
Now I've got both, you know what I mean?

Speaker 3 (54:22):
I do I also think you made me what popped
into my head when you were saying that, which is
why my face was scrunching up. I was raised United Methodist, Okay,
you know, but I have so many friends. Actually, I
just think of all of Ireland basically, yep. And I
think that sometimes religion and religious beliefs can make getting

(54:47):
over yourself hard.

Speaker 2 (54:49):
Gets in the way, for sure.

Speaker 1 (54:51):
And yet if you go to particularly if you're talking
about Ireland or our background is mostly Christian based, and
at the core of that was about forgiveness, wasn't it.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
Yeah, I thought the whole.

Speaker 3 (55:06):
Well, but you know, yeah, yeah, I think that the
people are you know, it's again, they're individual people's within
each ideology they're gonna it's such a personal journey. I've
always liked the idea of I never really the whatever
religion I was in, nobody talked that much about God

(55:26):
or a higher power or any kind of divine being,
and which is fascinating. So I think that at some
point I finally thought, you know, I've got to make
a decision what do I believe? And you know, I
told you that story the other day that sometimes I
cry and sometimes I don't about the little old woman
I helped across the street in New York who told

(55:47):
me that all of her friends had died and that
the only person she had to talk to was God.
And she talked to him like he was her friend.
And did I think that that would bother him? And
I said no, I think that's how you're supposed to
to talk to your higher power, your divine being, your
God or whatever. And she was so so sweet, you know,

(56:07):
and that happens to everybody. I think all your friends
just you get older and everybody passes away, and then
you're just sitting there and how do you hang on
to hope? And so there's a couple of things. I
think that any success that I've had in my life
is because I was a reader.

Speaker 2 (56:24):
You know.

Speaker 3 (56:24):
I just love to read and travel, read and travel,
and I think it's so important to just widen your horizons.
But as you grow older, being a lifelong learner and
hanging on to your curiosity are the things that will
keep you young. That's what my goal in life is

(56:47):
one and trying to lead a European lifestyle. I see,
because I'm sort of you know, I'm kind of driven.
Got to accomplish this encomplishment. So I just want to
How do I relax, stay in the moment and.

Speaker 1 (57:01):
Little coffees, clissants, maybe black turtlenecks and the occasional cigarette.

Speaker 3 (57:06):
What you do I wish? Yeah, I quit smoking. I
allergic to all lactose and dairy and gluten intolerance. So
my world has gotten really small. It's like, why even
go to Paris. It's just gonna sit at an outdoor
cafe and drink a glass of water and watch everybody
walk by.

Speaker 1 (57:24):
But yeah, but you do get to set in Paris,
and why does everybody walk by?

Speaker 3 (57:28):
Which is why I'm going. I told you I'm going
to go on a cruise of the Netherlands where I
will watch my frien Data eat and drink her away
through the chocolate and beer factories of the Netherlands.

Speaker 2 (57:44):
Cheese and culips as well. And Heroin. I believe if
you're announced with that Heroin, No, no way, not heroin Hashi.

Speaker 3 (57:52):
Yeah, because I would say the last. I haven't been
in Amsterdam since I was teen and I bought a
finger of hash that turned out to be shoe polish
and I smoked it anyway, I was hard up.

Speaker 2 (58:07):
Kathy, you are of joy. That's why you were here,
you too, you remain so. I wish we had longer talk.
We do, but but not here. Good day, Good day,