December 30, 2024 • 26 mins
If you're the CEO of your love life (and if not, let Evan show you the way), why are you letting these underperformers hand around? Hire slow, and fire fast!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
We have Evan mark Katz, a dating coach, dating advisor,
dating expert, to help you find the love of your life.
Evan welcometh Anny, thank you so much for having me.
Of course, so let's talk more about dating and relationships.
(00:32):
Let's talk about the fact that I that you hear
there's like a desperation with women of a certain age
that doesn't occur with.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Men, and you hear women like it's just a neediness.
There's a lot.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I could think of two women off the top of
my head that this week have texted me and been like,
do you know anyone? And there's a there's a vibe
about it, like there's just no one out there and
this negativity and you know, all men suck and and
I just don't really hear I mean, I hear men
talk about women in a different way, like more like
(01:07):
they're all operators or gold diggers or stupid or you
have to be there everything. But it's like men and
women don't seem to be on the same page. And
the minute that I hear these women ask, it feels
like the minute that these women ask in this way,
you almost feel like they're not as marketable because there's something.
Often it's what men aren't attracted to in women like
(01:31):
men kind of want what they can have and they
like the chase. And I don't really think it's necessarily
about looks or age. I think there's like an energy
and a woman gets to a certain age and if
she maybe doesn't work or have a big career, it's
hard for her to feel like she's bringing something to
the table when men can date younger. So I think
(01:52):
there's like a whole vibe that goes on with women
and men that I want you to talk about.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Yeah, listen, Bethanie. I think you're a great data philosopher.
Every time I pop in here, you drop some wisdom,
and I think you've identified a problem, that something's part
of the zeitgeist. My coaching is usually just telling women
something that they don't always feel that you're the CEO
of your love life and if you're if you're going
(02:18):
to be effective in dating, you need to treat men
like the interns rather than giving him the CEO status
and saying please pick me. So we're really talking about
coming from a place of scarcity. If you feel that
good men are lacking, and there's some evidence of that
as well, and it's not. Let's not entirely dismiss that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Let's well, what do you mean, Let's talk about the numbers,
because I think it seems like if you talk to men,
they'll say, yeah, I've got all women and no men,
Like what is what does that mean? Meaning men have
men's wives are all asking do you know anybody? And
the men are saying they've got they've got a scarcity
of men. So what what other? Is there actually a
scarcity of single men?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I think there's a bigger thing that's going on in
the world, world, like how global do you want to go?
So we need to acknowledge stereotypes, right, the definition of
a limiting belief something that's partially true but not totally true.
Belief online dating is terrible. There's no good men. They're
all looking for one thing. I'm too old, they're all
(03:19):
looking for younger. There's some truth to those stereotypes. It
just doesn't adhere to every situation. Okay, So if you're
a my client, smart, strong, successful women looking for an
equal partner, you need to reflect back their reality to
them that hey, maybe indeed only ten percent of men
are capable of being the man you want. Them to
(03:40):
be and that's okay. The same way that you wouldn't
just walk around a department store and buy ninety percent
of the items there. You'll look around to find the
ten percent of things that you like.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, by the way, it's so funny you say that
because for whatever reason, and I've been I've been burned,
I've had some pretty I've I had a decade long
terrible divorce. Always the same way I've always been with
business and like opportunity. I always feel like it's like
anything else. They're good apples, bad apples. They're good men,
bad men, Like that's just life. Good women, bad women.
(04:10):
I always feel like there are good men. It's the combination,
I really do. And I also feel like scared money
never wins, and you can't have that attitude. And also
like I think it's liberating to not to know what
you want at the buffet. If you walk up and
like you're just looking at everything, you're gonna be like
sick for the first three things you eat.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Like this way you're like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Yes.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
I think it's great to be this age and have
a big part of my job is I help people
figure out the no, But you're also coming from a
place of confidence and abundance that informs every aspect of
your life.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So and that's wonderful, right, Like you have a thing
that is hard to teach but is a necessary component.
You compared it to scared money. It is very much
the same same thing. If you believe the worst in men,
the the highest quality guy doesn't want to date a
woman who thinks that little of herself or thinks of
that little of men. Right, And so it's a it's
(05:07):
a bit of a dance to get people into a
confident place. Well why are people feeling insecure? Well, I'll
have to do is look at their relationship history hasn't
gone well, if you're a single one in your fifties,
you have a lot of evidence. Right, it's a narrow
it's a small sample size, but you have a lot
of evidence that relationships equal. Just yesterday I was talking
to someone. She was in a marriage, She felt small,
(05:29):
she felt unheard, she stayed for twenty years because of
the kids. That's a really common story. And now I'm
dating at fifty when it's a very different more than
when I was dating at thirty. The options available to
me the complications, so we could acknowledge. Yes, it's difficult.
Yes it's hard to find a quality guy, but it's
not impossible. And as long as you know what you're
(05:52):
doing and what you're looking for, there's a path. One
more thing, Bethany, before I throw it back to you.
People don't know what the looking for work, and that
makes it so much harder. It's like driving a car
without a GPS. Oh yeah, that's exactly right, and I
feel the same. I feel the same exact way.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
You could also have somebody And the problem is some
people want to like date sometimes and it's filler. And
the problem is if you're in the wrong car, you
might not be seeing the right car. And it's hard
to know that when you feel lonely and should you
just be alone and be like if this is if
you alter, well, there's two things I want to get into,
something about success levels. But before that, if you ultimately
(06:28):
know that someone is not going to be someone that
you're let's say you're in your fifties or forties.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You want to get married, you want a life partner.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
You believe that that's what you want, but you meet
someone that's great for like right now, but you're at
an age where you should be thinking about the future.
Are you supposed to like ride two horses at the
same time, be dating and be intentional about that, but
also have like your sort of your filler, your methadone,
or you're supposed to be like dry County because you're
not going to find the right person if you're dabbling
(06:59):
with the wrong persons.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
There's so much packed into that question.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Okay, is a good question, always a good question, But
let's tease that out for a second.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So you started with there's an age where you should
be looking, so I want to just remove that for
a second. Okay, if you are divorced, I just met
someone this weekend who's divorced and she's not ready for
the real deal yet. She okay, bloring what it's like
to be single. You probably don't need a dating coach.
(07:29):
You probably don't need a matchmaker. Go out, have your fun.
If that's literally all you want is your freedom. There
would probably be a time when you're looking to build
something more. But that's a perfectly viable life choice for
someone who's really looking for the real deal, who's looking
to ultimately, if not get married, then have something that
resembles a marriage. Every second you spend with the wrong
(07:51):
guy is a second you're not looking for the right guy. Wow,
And that's that's the hard part. It's not wrong. There's
no value judgment. Lots of people. A lot of dating
is people kind of men and women using each other
for some purpose in some way, whether we know whether
we acknowledge that or not. But I like the concept
of people dating with intention and making that intention pretty clear.
(08:12):
Once you become boyfriend girlfriend after about a month, hey
we both want X. Let's explore this together over the
next couple of years, rather than one person who's falling
in love and the other person's like, you're good for now.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But even the person who's saying you're good for now,
they could be a person who's also looking for a relationship.
So the good for now is not a good model.
If anybody wants a real relationship, that's a bad that's
not a great model. Or it is a model if
everybody knows what's going on. But you said, if you're
with the wrong but what is good for now? Being
with the wrong person or good for now is like purgatory.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
You actually just nailed it. At the beginning of the question,
And in my opinion, you have to know what you're
looking for. If you're looking for good for now, you
can date a recently divorced guy who's nowhere near wanting
to get remarried and that relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
But what if you're looking for good for forever but
you're in a good.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Then you're wasting your time in my.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
No, in your opinion, everything's your opinion. You're not you know,
but your experience. I'm a dating coach for yes, successful
women who have had a series of situationships that lead
nowhere and want to figure out how do I identify
more quickly? Is this guy just wasting my time? Am
I going to fall in love with him? Is he
going to tell me he loved me, treat me really well?
(09:42):
And when I'm looking for some security some future, he's
going to be like, hey, babe, this.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Is all I want. I never want to get married.
And she just sunk two years into her life with someone,
So we just want to make sure that people are
getting on the right track.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
You're kind of saying.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So even if the woman says that she knows it's
wrong and she's just sort of can handle it, a
We've seen that women usually can't handle what they think
they can in that regard, you know, they're not the
same as men, by and large, where a man can
compartmentalize and just get laid and like walk away from it.
By and large, these are big sweeps, and a woman
the muscle might get weak. Like the woman feels like
(10:16):
she has someone to do something with. We're coming up
to the holidays. The woman has someone to hang out
with on the holidays, you know, So she's not exercising
the muscle of finding the right person if that's what
she really wants.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
That's exactly right. Like a lot of things, it's good
in theory, yes, but it doesn't work that well in practice.
Great when someone invests time, energy, emotion into someone and
then catches feelings and then wonders, why is it so
hard to extricate my front from my friend with benefits?
(10:50):
He's never been anything but nice to me, He's never
been anything but honest with me about his intentions, And
why do I not want to go out with any
other guys? Well, you fell in love with the guy
who said don't fall.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
In love with me, and you also think you're going
to change them he he's gonna leave his wife. They're
gonna be this, They're gonna be a boyfriend or whatever.
But by the way, you sometimes I was, but I
but you always lay a boundary.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
This is two weeds.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
But I was with someone very briefly and it wasn't evolving.
And I said, no, matter what I made, it has
to be evolving. And he became. He went from a
player to a boyfriend. But that was because I said
that and set the boundary.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
You were the CEO, and you said, we don't have
been frame it as an ultimatum. Here's what works for me.
If you can't deliver on what I'm looking for, you're
not the right fit for this position. Best of luck
to you in the future. And that's what I mean
by CEO energy.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Oh I like that.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I'm gonna that's great. Okay, so let's go to this. Now,
this is a real thing.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Now.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I hear this a lot, and I roll my eyes.
And I'm one of these people. There's two, so sometimes
I roll my eyes. Who one's like a man can't
handle successful woman or he's intimidated by me or whatever.
But here's the thing. I've really experienced it and I've
had people express it to me. I've had people actually
express it to me. And the reason is, you know,
when I think about people like a Martha Stewart or
(12:02):
an Oprah Winfrey or whoever else, you know, like I
think about Ellen Degenerous and Porsche, they created a good balance.
They've been in a successful relationship for years.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
Like it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
You know, it doesn't some people find the dynamic. But
I have had people who feel that by most standards,
they're very successful or wealthy. Sometimes it's someone's wealthy and
people think they're successful because they have money, but they
feel like they haven't really accomplished everything they want to
(12:32):
or passion in their life. I've had a recurring theme
where because every day there's like a new opportunity or
a new deal. And the funny thing is, like I
don't put that much effort on it. I work hard,
but like I'll change up my career like it's nothing
like I'll be like a reality star and I was
a natural food chef and then I have Skinny Girl
and now I'm an influenzer. Like because it's not the
(12:53):
place I'm most noisy, it just comes to me I
work hard and I'm passionate. But because I'm not like
looking for it the way I do a relationship, it
kind of triggers other people around me because they feel
like they're falling short in life, like they're not doing enough,
they're not successful enough, Opportunities aren't falling into their lap
(13:15):
like mine, and they're trying to make it happen. And
I that's why I have thought that I need to
be with someone more successful than I am. That's why
it's all roads have led me to there, and people
try to convince me otherwise.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
At times, most people will agree with that. Most professionals
agree with that.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Okay, what I'm saying is, I guess the question is
in society in twenty twenty four. I'm telling young women,
go get your own work, your ass off, like Kim
Kardashian did say, and you get to decide if you
want to be in a relationship. If you don't want
to be in a relationship, you want someone to support
you, You don't want them to support you, you want to
support them.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
It just gives you more cards.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But with even though we're all feminists at heart, no
matter what year it is, twenty twenty four, a woman
wants a man to open the door, and there is
still chivalry, and there will be a disparity and will
be in a masculation if a woman is markedly more
successful than man.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
This is my opinion.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So women are out there going and getting theirs, being
career driven, waiting a little longer to have kids, let's say,
and then they're going to as a result, find that
men are intimidated by their success.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
There's so much here this this might be its own hour.
So I want to I just want to like just
acknowledge the big can of wards the open because it
is right. Like on my website Dating Coach for smart, strong,
successful women, this is a conversation on having in some
form every day hearing this version of events, not disagreeing
with it, because you always got to validate your experience, right,
(14:47):
I'm not gonna I'm not going to man explain your
life experience to.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
You, right, might you might have a different perspective I'm
learn I think if I want to, I want to
add to the perspective.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
What's happening time and time again for me is because
deals fall out of trees and stuff just shows up.
That's so crazy, and so people around me always have
felt intimidated by this men because it is pretty extreme.
It's like not that normal even for like and what
I call an NRP, a normal rich person, like a
you know, it's because it's got wealth. It's also got
(15:18):
like sparkly objects of like brand names and then powerful
people and fame and all this stuff. And I genuinely
kind of care about like don't care. It's all the
same to me, but to people around me, it doesn't
look the same. And they get very intimidated. They get
in their own heads and they start thinking about what
they're not doing in their lives, and I see it,
and they didn't think about it in their last relationship,
(15:38):
and now I'm a mirror and they're constantly like exasperated
and overcompensated and feeling insecure because of me. And I
don't want to dumb this shit down and have to
dim my light for someone else. That's and the same
thing that attracts them to me is they want my
light is the thing that bothers them, and that's not
good for me.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
That's what goes on repeatedly.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Okay, that was great, really, it was a great observation.
All Right, there's a trench in observation, and I identify
and have walked a mile in your shoes and have
coached for other people through similar things. And really only
by fleshing out the picture, you know your version of
events and it's accurate. There are plenty of men who
(16:20):
are intimidated by the very thing that attracts them to
you is the double edged sword that makes the relationship untenable.
I was that way once upon a time. I had
a girlfriend who hated the fact that I was a
flirt and I was always surrounded by women, and she
loved my personality, and she was very, very jealous of
the attention that I would get when I was out
in public as a male dating coach for women. And
(16:42):
she broke up with me like three times because she
wanted me to stop being who I was. So I
get you. The butt were the end, because things are
a zero sum game. And again, this is not going
to be an attack on you and your amazing business
ventures and this abundance life that you built for yourself,
where stuff comes to you because of what you created.
(17:03):
You're the son that has its own gravitational pull, right,
Because you're the son that has its own gravitational poll
you'll find a lot of people, certainly people in my
industry is it would be hard to date another son, right,
And that's what the big Hollywood marriages usually are. There're
two people who had their own gravitational poll and nobody
(17:24):
to peacocks, right, So nobody is it doesn't have to
finish in second place, but one person is the supporter, right.
Julia Roberts and her cameraman husband, or Matt Damon and
his bartender wife or whatever that story was. Those tend
to be a little bit more durable than the ben
Affleck j Lo pairings, where they're both occupying their own orbit.
(17:45):
So you can say, the only person who can handle
me is a guy who's more me than me.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Ah.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
But indeed, the guy who's more of you than you
might need might want a first grade teacher now because
he's intimidated you, but because he needs a different energy.
He doesn't need a woman who's more him than him.
He needs someone to nurture him and let him fly.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Does it make sense, yes, But how does a how
does a person like me be attracted to that person?
When I'm attracted to success and idea sharing and elevating
(18:31):
I you know, I it's like I've I've met with
other dating coaches that say, you know, I can't be
I'm the alpha and the man shouldn't be the beta
with me. Like it's because because it's like it fox
up gender roles. But maybe what you're saying is it
should be like that, and so then we're supposed to
adjust and feel like.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
No, no, let's do let's do both. Because when we
talk about Martha Stewart or I don't know enough about Oprah,
but certainly Martha Stewart documentary just came out and some
people were talking about it the other day. We're not
going to make women with masculine energy women with power wrong,
We're not going to demonize that like like that that
there's usually something that sounds like it's implicit in that
(19:11):
women are equal to men that could do the same
great things and the world's a better place for it. Right,
But as women have killed it in a masculine world
right to be hard working, aggressive, outspoken, right, men feel
like they've lost some of the feminine and the nurturing
that they crave from a relationship the same way a
(19:33):
woman craves masculine leadership, and every woman I know who's who.
She's a millionaire, she needs them to make a million
in one. It's this perception thing. It may go back
to biological evolutionary theory that we need a guy who's
got more resources than we do to protect and provide,
even though you do not need any protection or provision.
(19:54):
So I think it's this is a dense and this
is why I think that there's a narrow lane of people.
You need a man who's smart, successful, and secure enough
to handle you. But statistically speaking, you're more successful than
ninety nine point nine percent of people. Right, So I'm
using myself as any example. Right, I can handle you.
(20:16):
You understand that, like you don't intimidate me, And it's
not about me. I'm just using myself as an example
because I'm here. I could handle your intellect. I love
what you've created in the world. Right, My masculinity is
not threatened by you. My girlfriend before my wife, was
a senior vice president. That's somewhere when I was starting
out as a dating coach, I wasn't intimidated by her.
(20:37):
The problem, and this is the verse, is I think
she looked down.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
On me exactly. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Right then, how could a guy be confident and masculine
with a partner who looks down on him simply for
choosing a job that has a lower ceiling.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Well, I don't know what her reason was, but I.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But we'll bring it back to you. Is if you
want a guy who's not intimidated by the fact that
you're going to be more successful than just about everybody,
then you need to make him feel as much of
a man as he is, despite the fact that he
doesn't have the trappings of the you know, hedge fun
guy with the private jet. You got to make him
(21:16):
feel that way, the same way anybody has to make
his wife feel beautiful.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
But you're ultimately saying that I should flip the script
that I should be with someone. It's the cell show
isn't about me, But it seems like you're saying that
I should be open to being with someone who's less
successful than I am, which hasn't worked because they want
to they want to use surp power in different ways
because they feel they feel emasculated by my success. That's
(21:41):
the problem, like the person ends up feeling because then
you're just trying to make them feel better all day
about the fact that their job is less than yours
because maybe you didn't feel a certain way, but most
men do.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It's so hard to untangle. And I'm not even arguing
with you. It's so hard to untangle. He's intimidated by me,
and I make him feel less than because he's not
more successful. I expect a guy who can do these
things right, and so I'm not gonna again. I'm not
going to blame anybody for it. I think the problem
that you have, Bethany, is it's not necessarily a you problem.
(22:16):
It's a math problem. Right. You can google the answer
to the question how many how many men are worth
one hundred million dollars? We have such a tiny supply
of those men, and those men a are scarce, So
it's one percent of one percent of men. B A
lot of them, and you've dealt in this community for
(22:37):
a long time. A lot of them are. It comes
with the territory. Don't think rules apply to them. They're
they're selfish, their egocentric, they're arrogant, they're emotionally unavailable. They
don't do not want to be a a planet surrounding
your son as well. They have too much of their
own business ventures going on right, and don't want someone
(23:00):
who's always away jet setting whatever. They might want someone
who's there for them. And then the last piece of
the alpha alpha pairing is two people who are the
same often have friction. And that's why that makes sense.
And it doesn't matter if the man is more traditionally
powerful the woman's more traditionally powerful. Hilarity works well. I
(23:23):
don't know anything about Doug m Hoff, but Kamalo is
the one who went for president.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yes, and he know and he took a step down
in what he was doing. Yeah, and he supported her
some one.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
He's a bright guy. He's a decent looking guy. He
has something going for him, but he's not he's.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Not a sted man and Oprah, Yeah, you make it. Yeah,
I mean it goes. Yes, yes, he may me.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's just a not no, you're gonna if you make it,
he has to jump higher than knee. You've chriced everybody
out of the market, Bethany.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I mean jay Z and Beyonce figured it out, or
did they? I don't know.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
If I'm a betting man, yeah, I'm betting that that's
not the best marriage in the world. Interesting, I don't
think it's a huge leap of faith, because a marriage
is its own entity.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
And this is the other thing with powerful people. Right.
There's a woman named Pat Allen who wrote an old
book called Getting to I Do. It's kind of old school,
very traditional. I met with her before I met with
my wife. I've told this story before. And she says
to me, are you a career man or a man
with a career? And I had to think about that
(24:28):
for a second. She speaks in these like aphorisms. I said,
I'm a career man, like I'm really passionate about what
I do. She goes, You're gonna cheat on your wife.
I swear to god, this is like an account success.
You're gonna cheat on your wife because your career comes
first and your wife is not going to be your
top priority. And so if everybody's got twenty four hours
(24:50):
a day, a lot of people who put career first,
their relationships suffer. And it doesn't mean they're bad people.
It just means they have too many, too many things
to serve the same time, and everything slowly deteriorates. I
just read Ali Webb's book. You know Ali Webb from Drybar.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I know I met her once.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Okay, yeah, so I just read her book from Drybar
and it was called The Messy Truth, and she was
talking about how she was building a two hundred and
fifty million dollar company and her relationships were suffering. And
it doesn't mean you have to quit one to do
the other. It means we have to really constantly battle
internally with is this working for me right? And if
(25:30):
historically it hasn't worked, how can I pivot? So I
don't tell women to date men that they find on attractive,
that they find intellectually on stimulating, that they don't respect.
You're right, that's a ticket to disaster. But if Rupert
Murdoch were single for the sixth time, he wouldn't be
(25:52):
looking for another billionaire. He'd be looking for a blonde
who's thirty years younger, who could fly with him wherever
he goes, and he's going to pick up tabb and
he's not going to worry too much about it.
We have Evan mark Katz, a dating coach, dating advisor,
dating expert, to help you find the love of your life.
Evan welcometh Anny, thank you so much for having me.
Of course, so let's talk more about dating and relationships.
(00:32):
Let's talk about the fact that I that you hear
there's like a desperation with women of a certain age
that doesn't occur with.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Men, and you hear women like it's just a neediness.
There's a lot.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I could think of two women off the top of
my head that this week have texted me and been like,
do you know anyone? And there's a there's a vibe
about it, like there's just no one out there and
this negativity and you know, all men suck and and
I just don't really hear I mean, I hear men
talk about women in a different way, like more like
(01:07):
they're all operators or gold diggers or stupid or you
have to be there everything. But it's like men and
women don't seem to be on the same page. And
the minute that I hear these women ask, it feels
like the minute that these women ask in this way,
you almost feel like they're not as marketable because there's something.
Often it's what men aren't attracted to in women like
(01:31):
men kind of want what they can have and they
like the chase. And I don't really think it's necessarily
about looks or age. I think there's like an energy
and a woman gets to a certain age and if
she maybe doesn't work or have a big career, it's
hard for her to feel like she's bringing something to
the table when men can date younger. So I think
(01:52):
there's like a whole vibe that goes on with women
and men that I want you to talk about.
Speaker 3 (01:57):
Yeah, listen, Bethanie. I think you're a great data philosopher.
Every time I pop in here, you drop some wisdom,
and I think you've identified a problem, that something's part
of the zeitgeist. My coaching is usually just telling women
something that they don't always feel that you're the CEO
of your love life and if you're if you're going
(02:18):
to be effective in dating, you need to treat men
like the interns rather than giving him the CEO status
and saying please pick me. So we're really talking about
coming from a place of scarcity. If you feel that
good men are lacking, and there's some evidence of that
as well, and it's not. Let's not entirely dismiss that.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Let's well, what do you mean, Let's talk about the numbers,
because I think it seems like if you talk to men,
they'll say, yeah, I've got all women and no men,
Like what is what does that mean? Meaning men have
men's wives are all asking do you know anybody? And
the men are saying they've got they've got a scarcity
of men. So what what other? Is there actually a
scarcity of single men?
Speaker 3 (02:57):
I think there's a bigger thing that's going on in
the world, world, like how global do you want to go?
So we need to acknowledge stereotypes, right, the definition of
a limiting belief something that's partially true but not totally true.
Belief online dating is terrible. There's no good men. They're
all looking for one thing. I'm too old, they're all
(03:19):
looking for younger. There's some truth to those stereotypes. It
just doesn't adhere to every situation. Okay, So if you're
a my client, smart, strong, successful women looking for an
equal partner, you need to reflect back their reality to
them that hey, maybe indeed only ten percent of men
are capable of being the man you want. Them to
(03:40):
be and that's okay. The same way that you wouldn't
just walk around a department store and buy ninety percent
of the items there. You'll look around to find the
ten percent of things that you like.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Well, by the way, it's so funny you say that
because for whatever reason, and I've been I've been burned,
I've had some pretty I've I had a decade long
terrible divorce. Always the same way I've always been with
business and like opportunity. I always feel like it's like
anything else. They're good apples, bad apples. They're good men,
bad men, Like that's just life. Good women, bad women.
(04:10):
I always feel like there are good men. It's the combination,
I really do. And I also feel like scared money
never wins, and you can't have that attitude. And also
like I think it's liberating to not to know what
you want at the buffet. If you walk up and
like you're just looking at everything, you're gonna be like
sick for the first three things you eat.
Speaker 2 (04:30):
Like this way you're like, nope, nope, nope, nope, nope. Yes.
Speaker 4 (04:33):
I think it's great to be this age and have
a big part of my job is I help people
figure out the no, But you're also coming from a
place of confidence and abundance that informs every aspect of
your life.
Speaker 3 (04:45):
So and that's wonderful, right, Like you have a thing
that is hard to teach but is a necessary component.
You compared it to scared money. It is very much
the same same thing. If you believe the worst in men,
the the highest quality guy doesn't want to date a
woman who thinks that little of herself or thinks of
that little of men. Right, And so it's a it's
(05:07):
a bit of a dance to get people into a
confident place. Well why are people feeling insecure? Well, I'll
have to do is look at their relationship history hasn't
gone well, if you're a single one in your fifties,
you have a lot of evidence. Right, it's a narrow
it's a small sample size, but you have a lot
of evidence that relationships equal. Just yesterday I was talking
to someone. She was in a marriage, She felt small,
(05:29):
she felt unheard, she stayed for twenty years because of
the kids. That's a really common story. And now I'm
dating at fifty when it's a very different more than
when I was dating at thirty. The options available to
me the complications, so we could acknowledge. Yes, it's difficult.
Yes it's hard to find a quality guy, but it's
not impossible. And as long as you know what you're
(05:52):
doing and what you're looking for, there's a path. One
more thing, Bethany, before I throw it back to you.
People don't know what the looking for work, and that
makes it so much harder. It's like driving a car
without a GPS. Oh yeah, that's exactly right, and I
feel the same. I feel the same exact way.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
You could also have somebody And the problem is some
people want to like date sometimes and it's filler. And
the problem is if you're in the wrong car, you
might not be seeing the right car. And it's hard
to know that when you feel lonely and should you
just be alone and be like if this is if
you alter, well, there's two things I want to get into,
something about success levels. But before that, if you ultimately
(06:28):
know that someone is not going to be someone that
you're let's say you're in your fifties or forties.
Speaker 2 (06:33):
You want to get married, you want a life partner.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
You believe that that's what you want, but you meet
someone that's great for like right now, but you're at
an age where you should be thinking about the future.
Are you supposed to like ride two horses at the
same time, be dating and be intentional about that, but
also have like your sort of your filler, your methadone,
or you're supposed to be like dry County because you're
not going to find the right person if you're dabbling
(06:59):
with the wrong persons.
Speaker 3 (07:01):
There's so much packed into that question.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
Okay, is a good question, always a good question, But
let's tease that out for a second.
Speaker 3 (07:08):
So you started with there's an age where you should
be looking, so I want to just remove that for
a second. Okay, if you are divorced, I just met
someone this weekend who's divorced and she's not ready for
the real deal yet. She okay, bloring what it's like
to be single. You probably don't need a dating coach.
(07:29):
You probably don't need a matchmaker. Go out, have your fun.
If that's literally all you want is your freedom. There
would probably be a time when you're looking to build
something more. But that's a perfectly viable life choice for
someone who's really looking for the real deal, who's looking
to ultimately, if not get married, then have something that
resembles a marriage. Every second you spend with the wrong
(07:51):
guy is a second you're not looking for the right guy. Wow,
And that's that's the hard part. It's not wrong. There's
no value judgment. Lots of people. A lot of dating
is people kind of men and women using each other
for some purpose in some way, whether we know whether
we acknowledge that or not. But I like the concept
of people dating with intention and making that intention pretty clear.
(08:12):
Once you become boyfriend girlfriend after about a month, hey
we both want X. Let's explore this together over the
next couple of years, rather than one person who's falling
in love and the other person's like, you're good for now.
Speaker 2 (08:25):
Right.
Speaker 1 (08:38):
But even the person who's saying you're good for now,
they could be a person who's also looking for a relationship.
So the good for now is not a good model.
If anybody wants a real relationship, that's a bad that's
not a great model. Or it is a model if
everybody knows what's going on. But you said, if you're
with the wrong but what is good for now? Being
with the wrong person or good for now is like purgatory.
Speaker 3 (09:00):
You actually just nailed it. At the beginning of the question,
And in my opinion, you have to know what you're
looking for. If you're looking for good for now, you
can date a recently divorced guy who's nowhere near wanting
to get remarried and that relationship.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
But what if you're looking for good for forever but
you're in a good.
Speaker 3 (09:19):
Then you're wasting your time in my.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
No, in your opinion, everything's your opinion. You're not you know,
but your experience. I'm a dating coach for yes, successful
women who have had a series of situationships that lead
nowhere and want to figure out how do I identify
more quickly? Is this guy just wasting my time? Am
I going to fall in love with him? Is he
going to tell me he loved me, treat me really well?
(09:42):
And when I'm looking for some security some future, he's
going to be like, hey, babe, this.
Speaker 3 (09:46):
Is all I want. I never want to get married.
And she just sunk two years into her life with someone,
So we just want to make sure that people are
getting on the right track.
Speaker 2 (09:55):
You're kind of saying.
Speaker 1 (09:55):
So even if the woman says that she knows it's
wrong and she's just sort of can handle it, a
We've seen that women usually can't handle what they think
they can in that regard, you know, they're not the
same as men, by and large, where a man can
compartmentalize and just get laid and like walk away from it.
By and large, these are big sweeps, and a woman
the muscle might get weak. Like the woman feels like
(10:16):
she has someone to do something with. We're coming up
to the holidays. The woman has someone to hang out
with on the holidays, you know, So she's not exercising
the muscle of finding the right person if that's what
she really wants.
Speaker 3 (10:28):
That's exactly right. Like a lot of things, it's good
in theory, yes, but it doesn't work that well in practice.
Great when someone invests time, energy, emotion into someone and
then catches feelings and then wonders, why is it so
hard to extricate my front from my friend with benefits?
(10:50):
He's never been anything but nice to me, He's never
been anything but honest with me about his intentions, And
why do I not want to go out with any
other guys? Well, you fell in love with the guy
who said don't fall.
Speaker 1 (10:59):
In love with me, and you also think you're going
to change them he he's gonna leave his wife. They're
gonna be this, They're gonna be a boyfriend or whatever.
But by the way, you sometimes I was, but I
but you always lay a boundary.
Speaker 2 (11:09):
This is two weeds.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
But I was with someone very briefly and it wasn't evolving.
And I said, no, matter what I made, it has
to be evolving. And he became. He went from a
player to a boyfriend. But that was because I said
that and set the boundary.
Speaker 2 (11:21):
Right.
Speaker 3 (11:22):
You were the CEO, and you said, we don't have
been frame it as an ultimatum. Here's what works for me.
If you can't deliver on what I'm looking for, you're
not the right fit for this position. Best of luck
to you in the future. And that's what I mean
by CEO energy.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Oh I like that.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
I'm gonna that's great. Okay, so let's go to this. Now,
this is a real thing.
Speaker 4 (11:40):
Now.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I hear this a lot, and I roll my eyes.
And I'm one of these people. There's two, so sometimes
I roll my eyes. Who one's like a man can't
handle successful woman or he's intimidated by me or whatever.
But here's the thing. I've really experienced it and I've
had people express it to me. I've had people actually
express it to me. And the reason is, you know,
when I think about people like a Martha Stewart or
(12:02):
an Oprah Winfrey or whoever else, you know, like I
think about Ellen Degenerous and Porsche, they created a good balance.
They've been in a successful relationship for years.
Speaker 5 (12:10):
Like it.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
You know, it doesn't some people find the dynamic. But
I have had people who feel that by most standards,
they're very successful or wealthy. Sometimes it's someone's wealthy and
people think they're successful because they have money, but they
feel like they haven't really accomplished everything they want to
(12:32):
or passion in their life. I've had a recurring theme
where because every day there's like a new opportunity or
a new deal. And the funny thing is, like I
don't put that much effort on it. I work hard,
but like I'll change up my career like it's nothing
like I'll be like a reality star and I was
a natural food chef and then I have Skinny Girl
and now I'm an influenzer. Like because it's not the
(12:53):
place I'm most noisy, it just comes to me I
work hard and I'm passionate. But because I'm not like
looking for it the way I do a relationship, it
kind of triggers other people around me because they feel
like they're falling short in life, like they're not doing enough,
they're not successful enough, Opportunities aren't falling into their lap
(13:15):
like mine, and they're trying to make it happen. And
I that's why I have thought that I need to
be with someone more successful than I am. That's why
it's all roads have led me to there, and people
try to convince me otherwise.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
At times, most people will agree with that. Most professionals
agree with that.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Okay, what I'm saying is, I guess the question is
in society in twenty twenty four. I'm telling young women,
go get your own work, your ass off, like Kim
Kardashian did say, and you get to decide if you
want to be in a relationship. If you don't want
to be in a relationship, you want someone to support
you, You don't want them to support you, you want to
support them.
Speaker 2 (13:51):
It just gives you more cards.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
But with even though we're all feminists at heart, no
matter what year it is, twenty twenty four, a woman
wants a man to open the door, and there is
still chivalry, and there will be a disparity and will
be in a masculation if a woman is markedly more
successful than man.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
This is my opinion.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
So women are out there going and getting theirs, being
career driven, waiting a little longer to have kids, let's say,
and then they're going to as a result, find that
men are intimidated by their success.
Speaker 3 (14:25):
There's so much here this this might be its own hour.
So I want to I just want to like just
acknowledge the big can of wards the open because it
is right. Like on my website Dating Coach for smart, strong,
successful women, this is a conversation on having in some
form every day hearing this version of events, not disagreeing
with it, because you always got to validate your experience, right,
(14:47):
I'm not gonna I'm not going to man explain your
life experience to.
Speaker 5 (14:50):
You, right, might you might have a different perspective I'm
learn I think if I want to, I want to
add to the perspective.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
What's happening time and time again for me is because
deals fall out of trees and stuff just shows up.
That's so crazy, and so people around me always have
felt intimidated by this men because it is pretty extreme.
It's like not that normal even for like and what
I call an NRP, a normal rich person, like a
you know, it's because it's got wealth. It's also got
(15:18):
like sparkly objects of like brand names and then powerful
people and fame and all this stuff. And I genuinely
kind of care about like don't care. It's all the
same to me, but to people around me, it doesn't
look the same. And they get very intimidated. They get
in their own heads and they start thinking about what
they're not doing in their lives, and I see it,
and they didn't think about it in their last relationship,
(15:38):
and now I'm a mirror and they're constantly like exasperated
and overcompensated and feeling insecure because of me. And I
don't want to dumb this shit down and have to
dim my light for someone else. That's and the same
thing that attracts them to me is they want my
light is the thing that bothers them, and that's not
good for me.
Speaker 2 (15:58):
That's what goes on repeatedly.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Okay, that was great, really, it was a great observation.
All Right, there's a trench in observation, and I identify
and have walked a mile in your shoes and have
coached for other people through similar things. And really only
by fleshing out the picture, you know your version of
events and it's accurate. There are plenty of men who
(16:20):
are intimidated by the very thing that attracts them to
you is the double edged sword that makes the relationship untenable.
I was that way once upon a time. I had
a girlfriend who hated the fact that I was a
flirt and I was always surrounded by women, and she
loved my personality, and she was very, very jealous of
the attention that I would get when I was out
in public as a male dating coach for women. And
(16:42):
she broke up with me like three times because she
wanted me to stop being who I was. So I
get you. The butt were the end, because things are
a zero sum game. And again, this is not going
to be an attack on you and your amazing business
ventures and this abundance life that you built for yourself,
where stuff comes to you because of what you created.
(17:03):
You're the son that has its own gravitational pull, right,
Because you're the son that has its own gravitational poll
you'll find a lot of people, certainly people in my
industry is it would be hard to date another son, right,
And that's what the big Hollywood marriages usually are. There're
two people who had their own gravitational poll and nobody
(17:24):
to peacocks, right, So nobody is it doesn't have to
finish in second place, but one person is the supporter, right.
Julia Roberts and her cameraman husband, or Matt Damon and
his bartender wife or whatever that story was. Those tend
to be a little bit more durable than the ben
Affleck j Lo pairings, where they're both occupying their own orbit.
(17:45):
So you can say, the only person who can handle
me is a guy who's more me than me.
Speaker 2 (17:50):
Ah.
Speaker 3 (17:51):
But indeed, the guy who's more of you than you
might need might want a first grade teacher now because
he's intimidated you, but because he needs a different energy.
He doesn't need a woman who's more him than him.
He needs someone to nurture him and let him fly.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
Does it make sense, yes, But how does a how
does a person like me be attracted to that person?
When I'm attracted to success and idea sharing and elevating
(18:31):
I you know, I it's like I've I've met with
other dating coaches that say, you know, I can't be
I'm the alpha and the man shouldn't be the beta
with me. Like it's because because it's like it fox
up gender roles. But maybe what you're saying is it
should be like that, and so then we're supposed to
adjust and feel like.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
No, no, let's do let's do both. Because when we
talk about Martha Stewart or I don't know enough about Oprah,
but certainly Martha Stewart documentary just came out and some
people were talking about it the other day. We're not
going to make women with masculine energy women with power wrong,
We're not going to demonize that like like that that
there's usually something that sounds like it's implicit in that
(19:11):
women are equal to men that could do the same
great things and the world's a better place for it. Right,
But as women have killed it in a masculine world
right to be hard working, aggressive, outspoken, right, men feel
like they've lost some of the feminine and the nurturing
that they crave from a relationship the same way a
(19:33):
woman craves masculine leadership, and every woman I know who's who.
She's a millionaire, she needs them to make a million
in one. It's this perception thing. It may go back
to biological evolutionary theory that we need a guy who's
got more resources than we do to protect and provide,
even though you do not need any protection or provision.
(19:54):
So I think it's this is a dense and this
is why I think that there's a narrow lane of people.
You need a man who's smart, successful, and secure enough
to handle you. But statistically speaking, you're more successful than
ninety nine point nine percent of people. Right, So I'm
using myself as any example. Right, I can handle you.
(20:16):
You understand that, like you don't intimidate me, And it's
not about me. I'm just using myself as an example
because I'm here. I could handle your intellect. I love
what you've created in the world. Right, My masculinity is
not threatened by you. My girlfriend before my wife, was
a senior vice president. That's somewhere when I was starting
out as a dating coach, I wasn't intimidated by her.
(20:37):
The problem, and this is the verse, is I think
she looked down.
Speaker 2 (20:41):
On me exactly. That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (20:44):
Right then, how could a guy be confident and masculine
with a partner who looks down on him simply for
choosing a job that has a lower ceiling.
Speaker 2 (20:51):
Well, I don't know what her reason was, but I.
Speaker 3 (20:54):
But we'll bring it back to you. Is if you
want a guy who's not intimidated by the fact that
you're going to be more successful than just about everybody,
then you need to make him feel as much of
a man as he is, despite the fact that he
doesn't have the trappings of the you know, hedge fun
guy with the private jet. You got to make him
(21:16):
feel that way, the same way anybody has to make
his wife feel beautiful.
Speaker 1 (21:21):
But you're ultimately saying that I should flip the script
that I should be with someone. It's the cell show
isn't about me, But it seems like you're saying that
I should be open to being with someone who's less
successful than I am, which hasn't worked because they want
to they want to use surp power in different ways
because they feel they feel emasculated by my success. That's
(21:41):
the problem, like the person ends up feeling because then
you're just trying to make them feel better all day
about the fact that their job is less than yours
because maybe you didn't feel a certain way, but most
men do.
Speaker 3 (21:52):
It's so hard to untangle. And I'm not even arguing
with you. It's so hard to untangle. He's intimidated by me,
and I make him feel less than because he's not
more successful. I expect a guy who can do these
things right, and so I'm not gonna again. I'm not
going to blame anybody for it. I think the problem
that you have, Bethany, is it's not necessarily a you problem.
(22:16):
It's a math problem. Right. You can google the answer
to the question how many how many men are worth
one hundred million dollars? We have such a tiny supply
of those men, and those men a are scarce, So
it's one percent of one percent of men. B A
lot of them, and you've dealt in this community for
(22:37):
a long time. A lot of them are. It comes
with the territory. Don't think rules apply to them. They're
they're selfish, their egocentric, they're arrogant, they're emotionally unavailable. They
don't do not want to be a a planet surrounding
your son as well. They have too much of their
own business ventures going on right, and don't want someone
(23:00):
who's always away jet setting whatever. They might want someone
who's there for them. And then the last piece of
the alpha alpha pairing is two people who are the
same often have friction. And that's why that makes sense.
And it doesn't matter if the man is more traditionally
powerful the woman's more traditionally powerful. Hilarity works well. I
(23:23):
don't know anything about Doug m Hoff, but Kamalo is
the one who went for president.
Speaker 1 (23:27):
Yes, and he know and he took a step down
in what he was doing. Yeah, and he supported her
some one.
Speaker 3 (23:32):
He's a bright guy. He's a decent looking guy. He
has something going for him, but he's not he's.
Speaker 1 (23:37):
Not a sted man and Oprah, Yeah, you make it. Yeah,
I mean it goes. Yes, yes, he may me.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
It's just a not no, you're gonna if you make it,
he has to jump higher than knee. You've chriced everybody
out of the market, Bethany.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
I mean jay Z and Beyonce figured it out, or
did they? I don't know.
Speaker 5 (23:55):
If I'm a betting man, yeah, I'm betting that that's
not the best marriage in the world. Interesting, I don't
think it's a huge leap of faith, because a marriage
is its own entity.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
And this is the other thing with powerful people. Right.
There's a woman named Pat Allen who wrote an old
book called Getting to I Do. It's kind of old school,
very traditional. I met with her before I met with
my wife. I've told this story before. And she says
to me, are you a career man or a man
with a career? And I had to think about that
(24:28):
for a second. She speaks in these like aphorisms. I said,
I'm a career man, like I'm really passionate about what
I do. She goes, You're gonna cheat on your wife.
I swear to god, this is like an account success.
You're gonna cheat on your wife because your career comes
first and your wife is not going to be your
top priority. And so if everybody's got twenty four hours
(24:50):
a day, a lot of people who put career first,
their relationships suffer. And it doesn't mean they're bad people.
It just means they have too many, too many things
to serve the same time, and everything slowly deteriorates. I
just read Ali Webb's book. You know Ali Webb from Drybar.
Speaker 2 (25:08):
I know I met her once.
Speaker 3 (25:09):
Okay, yeah, so I just read her book from Drybar
and it was called The Messy Truth, and she was
talking about how she was building a two hundred and
fifty million dollar company and her relationships were suffering. And
it doesn't mean you have to quit one to do
the other. It means we have to really constantly battle
internally with is this working for me right? And if
(25:30):
historically it hasn't worked, how can I pivot? So I
don't tell women to date men that they find on attractive,
that they find intellectually on stimulating, that they don't respect.
You're right, that's a ticket to disaster. But if Rupert
Murdoch were single for the sixth time, he wouldn't be
(25:52):
looking for another billionaire. He'd be looking for a blonde
who's thirty years younger, who could fly with him wherever
he goes, and he's going to pick up tabb and
he's not going to worry too much about it.
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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