January 28, 2025 • 21 mins
Black Cat? Golden Retriever? How about CEO.
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
Okay, So I was just talking to someone about I'm
not going to overstate this. I'm just going to say
it as a as a framework about making an analogy
to business with relationships only as it pertains to both
parties bringing something to the table. So, for example, I
have a relief work partner. We were just talking about
(00:34):
the fires, and his name is Michael Caponi, and it's
my longest marriage, he and I. It's been seven years
and under the most stressful times in the war, like
more stressful than I've ever had in any relationship, like
we almost got scammed on thirteen million dollars worth of
hazmat suits or in the Ppe crisis. He was like, Beth,
and I'm going to fucking jump off a balcony. Are
(00:55):
you killing me? Like you know, I'm on his ass.
I was on his ass last week about something like
It's but he I've never met someone who can keep
up with me and who has exactly is exactly as
valuable and proficient, but in completely different ways. And there's
never a question about who's doing more work or who's
(01:15):
bringing more to the table. It's sort of like all
in good faith and we both like are It's a
really equal partnership, even though it has like we literally
do completely different things at different times. So the reason
I bring that up is because in relationships, I don't
think it should be like a tit for tat where
it's like you have to do this and I have
(01:36):
to do that. But I think that there should be
sort of it's not it's not it's like sort of
the if it's important to you, it's important to me.
It's the unconditional thing. It's it's the not not the
things that they did or that you did, but both
of you sort of want to put chips in the
middle of the table just because you want to. The
best relationship that I've ever been in is one where
(01:56):
I want to give, like the way I am with gifts,
Like we want to give more than you want to receive,
and then hopefully the other person wants to give more
than receive and then you know, all boats rise at
the tide. So I kind of wanted to talk about
that because I've been in situations where I'm the giving
tree and then I bend and then I break, and
once you've broken, you can't mend it. And like people take, take,
(02:18):
take and push push, push, and just accept that they
are the taker in the relationship. But I think it's
sort of the mistake my kindness for weakness thing. So
I wanted to talk about that whole like meat.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It's interesting as you're talking, I'm sitting here taking notes
because there's a lot to chew on here. I think
you're correct in that the central metaphor of my coaching
is that you're the CEO of your love life, and
men are the interns applying for a job, and you
have to see if he's worthy of this job. And
there's one job at the company. It's a really important job,
(02:52):
and so it's a lot based on not just how
his resume looks, for how he interviews at the beginning,
but the consistent effort he continues to put in over
time once he has the job.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Wow, I keep forgetting that that's your main thing, and
that's the most important thing. If I only operated like
that every day, that's a great premise.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
But sincerely, if I were talking to men, I'd say,
you're the CEO, and we need to pay attention to
how she makes you feel, to how she treats you.
That's the two way street. So whoever I'm talking to.
I'm giving them the sense of power that you don't
have to put up with this bullshit.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
But that's with the tide, that's what you're saying. That's
all bangers. That's having an all star team in your
office versus one person dragging everybody down. That's the same thing, right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
And so you you mentioned both people wanting to be givers.
No one could have a successful relationship if there's one
giver and one taker. Now what makes that more complicated
is that we're all experts on what we give and
what we sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
We always pay.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Attention to what we do. We don't always know what
other people are doing. So your premise itself is a
good one. It's the right one. If you find that
you're always given a relationship, well, I guess from here
on end.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
You got a data giver. But there's also lots of
forms of giving. Right.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I'm married to a woman who hasn't worked since we
had kids. Her giving is gonna look different than my giving, right, Right,
And I'm going to value that because that's what she
has to give. She's an active service person, right, So
we have to look at this through different lenses. Last
thing that based on your notes. That I wanted to
(04:27):
bring up, which I think is also important, and it's
not to poke fun at you, is that I want
a guy who keeps up with me, which is true.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
No one's going to argue.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
That you shouldn't have to use smaller words for a
guy to keep up, right, Like that's true. But what
a lot of people forget is that in addition to
keeping up with someone, there's putting up with someone right,
and humility. That last piece is kind of everything for
a relationship. There's just knowing, Hey, I'm a lot, and yeah,
(04:58):
I want a man who could keep up with me,
but also I want of men who could put up
with me and all the stuff that comes with it
and having that humility.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
And it's not just you. I could say the same
thing about myself.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
But I would reframe that and say who celebrates you?
Because putting up with is a little net Like, for example,
I was out to dinner with the Gate couple the
other night. They've been together for I don't know, it
might have been fifteen twenty years, and they're great and
one of them is like a finance guy, and one
of them is more of a creative like media guy,
and he's more funny and wacky, and he's the peacock.
And the finance guy really celebrates you know. The other
(05:30):
guy like isn't like rolling his eyes, it's not too
much like he likes when he gets lit and crazy.
And they were saying, you need that, like you need that,
you're the you, and the other person totally gets a
kick out of it, loves when you get lit, et cetera.
Not the light dimming, but also not like yeah, not
(05:50):
the light dimming, and not someone who doesn't want to
be part of the circus. Someone who appreciates the circus,
loves the circus. Like to me, that's that's what we're saying.
It's not just putting up with it's celebrating it.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Right, But it's both.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And obviously that person's going to be attracted to all
the things that make you you, right, so we need
we need both. And thinking, of course, if a woman
likes a man who's got charisma, my wife, my wife,
you know, had a whole series of charismatic boyfriends who
cheated on her, right, that's her thing.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Her dad was charismatic.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So if someone likes charisma, that is going to be
a thing that she's drawn to like a moth to
a flame. There's also what comes with that, exactly right,
which someone does indeed have to put up with. Oh,
every time my husband goes to a party's going to
be surrounded by women.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Oh yeah, No, it's the rose that has pedal and thorns.
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, right, So that's what I'm saying is recognizing that
all good qualities come with bad qualities. And yes, we
could celebrate what makes Bethany Bethany. And there's a there's
a downside to the circus, and he is the guy
who's willing to put up with that, and that's no
small thing.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Right, Let's also talk about this. So there's two things. One,
there's a guy, Nick Viiel. He has a podcast. I've
never listened to it, and I know I think he
(07:18):
was on reality TV or The Bachelor or something, but
I saw a clip from his show where he was
talking about hookup culture, which is not what I'm really
talking about, but he was basically saying, no man will
ever like fall in love with you for the sex
they fall in love with, like the mystique and what
they can't have. He was saying, like, you know a
lot of women will try to keep giving, whether it's
(07:40):
of sex or of emotion or of a material to
try to like you're chasing the dragon, trying to get it.
And there's another woman on social media that has a
black Cat Golden Retriever theory. She's like, don't be giving
him a bunch of gifts, don't be going out of
your way. She's like, she believes in the black Cat
Golden Retriever. That like, you want to be the black
cat and the guy the Golden Retriever like that, And
(08:04):
so I want to know what you think about these
sort of like unintentional gamifications of it, like the guys
want what they can't have type of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I'm taking copious notes because it's interesting to hear what
other people have to say and the metaphors people use
to get these complex ideas across. And so Nick Viles
thing that men are not just driven by hookup culture.
Being the most beautiful woman on the planet is not
going to land you a husband. That, in my estimation,
is one my wife used created a term that I
(08:39):
still use in coaching to this day. Men look for
sex and find love.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Well, wait, there used to be a movie called Sex
lives and videotape. It was years ago. It was an
amazing movie and eighty nine right, and it was men.
I forgot this. This is amazing. Men learn to love
the women they're attracted too, and women learn to be
attracted to the men that they love.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, and again it's more complicated than that, but that's
basically the right idea. So that's why when people reach
out for coaching, I don't spend any time. There's enough
out there on giving you beauty advice on your skin
and your hair and your lips and all that kind
of stuff. You don't need a mail dating coach to
tell you to do.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Presentation is what's going to draw him in. But every
man has had the experience of breaking up with someone
who's beautiful because the relationship didn't work for him. Why
doesn't the relationship work for him generally because he doesn't
feel accepted, appreciated, or admired. Right, you could be the
most beautiful woman in the world, You could be a
top chef, supermodel, Rhodes scholar. But if he doesn't feel
(09:42):
accepted as he is, appreciated for what he does or
admired for what gifts he does, bring to the table.
He's probably not going to feel emotionally satisfied in the relationship, right, But.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
What if he shouldn't be appreciated because he's not meeting you, or.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
You shouldn't, then you shouldn't date it exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay, so let's talk about that. So let's talk about
you with someone and they don't appreciate you or they're
not meeting I think it's really you know, and again
bring up someone else. I don't think it was her
original concept. With Kristin Cavalari, another podcaster, I heard a
clip she said, match their energy. And the truth is,
for me, it's more than just that, because that's like
a little quip. For me, it's meeting you where you're at,
(10:19):
meeting you halfway, which is why I bring it back
to business, like you know, when someone's meeting you halfway,
even if it's not perfect, even if it's my partner Michael,
that we kill each other. I know that even if
I'm doing it wrong or he's doing it wrong, that
he's meeting with me where I'm at, He's making the effort.
He's like trying to be a partner. And that's what
I think it's about. Not being perfect and not getting
(10:41):
it right the intention.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
He's bought into the larger concept and that works in business.
That also works in marriage, right, like if you're keeping score,
you're already losing.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And my second book, we talk about something called the
platinum rule. The golden rule is due onto others. The
platinum rule is do more right. Just just constantly give, give, give,
And if you find that you're giving and you're on
the losing end and you feel depleted because your efforts
are not being appreciated or reciprocated, well then you're in
a losing relationship that's straining your energy and you should
(11:13):
find a better partner, a better job than that.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Okay, So say that's your job, that's your partner. So
now you decide that you care about the person, but
this is not going to work for you, okay. Because
I always think about the friend zone. The friend zone
is often a place that people go in they're dating,
But what about when people break up? So what I
mean is often there's a guy that likes a girl
and he's put into the friend zone. It's very difficult
to get out of there unless a woman is at
a low point for some post New Year's eve disaster
(11:38):
that happened, and then she goes to the consolation prize
safety school and that never works. That's the friend zone.
What about the friend zone post relationship? What about you
break up with someone you're not getting what you need,
but they want to have you in their lives and
put you in the friend zone. My opinion for those
people is it's kind of the cow in the milk.
(11:59):
I don't think you get any You don't get the
access pass for like just the cherry pick of what
you want, but now the rose and the pedals. You
got to do the work and get the bad and
the good. You're gonna have to tolerate the bad to
get to get the good. You don't get the friend
stuff alone. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Mac?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And I think you I've said since I've mentioned I
think you've got really really great instincts for this based
on your experience, and I just have, you know, language
that I've developed over the years to talk about that.
What you're talking about I called the emotional booty car.
Yeah right, I get all the benefits of having a partner,
just without the sexual betait I could be there for me.
Yeah right Again, I mean we've been there right where
(12:37):
someone breaks up with me in my early thirties and
I write her online dating profile. I want to show
her what a great guy I am. And I'm just
sitting there like a bitch, you know, like hoping she
realizes she made the biggest mistake of her life and
she's getting all the benefits of the boyfriend, right. And
that's what people do when they're feeling weak and needy.
And the truth is, if you're the CEO and you're
(12:59):
firing the in turn, the intern doesn't get to keep
on coming back to work.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Look at you. Yes, you need to have on my
new website that's coming out like a little section with
just these like little digestible bites. Yes, exactly. You fire
the intern. They don't get to come back to work,
even if if you fire your fucking number two or
your partner.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, and it doesn't mean you don't care about them
or wish them well, but they don't get to keep
on showing up at the office or expecting a half
of a paycheck. And that's what people do in relationships
because it's hard to cut the people.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
They reach out to you. You can give them a referral.
You could talk to them, but you're not the day
to day person. You don't you don't blow them out
where they died, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
It's a huge loss, right it is. It's a loss.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It's a morning for people to process when you think
this is your person and then suddenly that person you
leaned on is no longer there. Both people are going
to miss that. But you need to have the courage
to say, I can't move on if I'm spending half
my time with my ex.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Right and I can't find a new person to fill
this position, if I'm still letting this person come in
and file two days a week exactly. Okay, So that's excellent.
I love your analogy. I think it works really well,
and I have to reinforce it because I forgot about it.
And it's very good for people. So that's excellent.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I don't want you to forget about your black cat.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Oh right, that's the woman who said black cat golden retriever.
She's a woman on TikTok and she's very probably on
Instagram too, and it does work. She'll show you people
and she'll say ebbs and flows and relationships too. At
one point, you're the black cat at one point, you're
the golden Retriever, etc.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I what I don't like about that is that it's
playing power dynamics. Yes, and it's a little bit nineteen
nineties rules base. I'm trying to manipulate him into So
go back, let's go back to work. You don't have
to put a gun to the interns head and say
show up for work. They show up early, stay late.
(15:00):
Why they're self motivated. They want the job. A guy
should be a golden retriever, but not because he's weak,
but because he desires the opportunity to be in your
company and claim you as a partner and as the CEO.
Your job is not to be the black cat. Your
job is to be like Google, how do I make
an environment? Hey, we're gonna have We're gonna give.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
You free food. We're gonna give you massages and therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
We're gonna that's the King and Queen thing. You're making
them your king.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, How do we make if you are the woman CEO,
how do we make the intern incentivized to say this
is the best goddamn job I've ever had. The black
cat is not trying to do that. She's trying to
do this sort of dopamine hit give tape, walk away, and.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It's very It's a good point because you know, actually
this is an excellent point because having been in dynamics
like this, you get a high and then you get
a low. You get it's like a binge eating and
then beating yourself up about it. It's not a good feeling.
You get the reaction you want for the wrong rea,
like you ignore, you match the energy you do. Whatever
(16:03):
the gamification is. The person responds for the wrong reasons
because they're game. They don't even know they're playing a game,
but you're withdrawing. So they're telling you how great you are,
how beautiful you are, and they leaning in. But then
five seconds later the rubber bank goes right back and
they're who they were. And it's a very not satisfying
junk food binge purge model. So I agree.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
So games which work in finger quotes, games work, but
they beget more games than that insanability. Yes, they're not pleasant, No,
they're not pleasant. If a guy got you like he's
your boyfriend, then make him feel like a million bucks.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
No, But if you do make them feel like a
million bucks, and then he pulls back and withdraws because
of that dynamic. Some people it's the attachment disorder or
the avoidant disorder, and some people are needy and attach,
and then the minute that somebody who has avoidant feels
the attachment from the attached person, they then withdraw And
it feels like games, but it's psychological.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
You're correct, ethony, But that brings me back to don't
date someone who's avoidant, period. Great, like if that's if
you being authentic and showing up and giving, Like, hey man,
you were gone on.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
A business trip for a week. I sent a car
to the airport.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I made your favorite dinner when we got home, right,
I put on my cutest thing when we go back
to the bedroom.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And he's like, whoa, babe, this is a little much
for me.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Well, that you don't want that guy, That that's a
signal to run when you are emotionally available giving, and
that sense him running in the opposite direction. So fifty
percent of the population of men are secure can form
intimate attachments, and so it feels differently. It feels a
lot safer. There's a lot less games, there's a lot
(17:46):
less rollercoaster. You might even say sometimes it's boring, why
because he does exactly what he says he's going to do.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That's not meeting you where you're at. That's the same
thing I'm saying. That's not meeting you where you're at.
And I say, you're married to that person. And like,
I've heard many different examples from people's parents, to their
own relationships to even kids that are disconnected, Like they
don't really experience or explore emotions. They're sort of avoidant.
And I know someone who's in a very serious relationship
(18:12):
with someone that basically it took a while for them
to realize, you know, we never really get deep, we
don't really connect. I know someone who's married to someone
for twenty years that they don't feel that they've ever
really had deep conversations with. They've had loving experiences and
fun and kids and all this stuff, but they really
don't have deep connections. And you have to get deep
on your own and be deep to realize that avoidance.
(18:33):
And it's sort of like not having a satisfying meal
over the course of your lifetime. So let's say you're
in a relationship with someone who is avoidant and there
is a gamification in your relationship. You're married to them.
Can someone change if the if they have the threat
of losing you or the fear of losing you, can
a person who's like that actually change.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I don't want to be the person to declare how
the world works entirely. I have my theories. I don't think.
I don't think you could have a relationship dependent upon
someone changing for you. I would never bank on it,
of course already, right, That's what I'm saying. So people
changed by their own volition. You're look in the mirror
of New Year's Eve, I'm twenty five pounds overweight. Okay,
(19:16):
this is the year that I'm gonna that comes from within.
But Bob, We've been married for twenty five years. I
don't think I've ever had an intimate conversation with you.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Go I don't know. But what about Bob.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I'm leaving and then you leave for six weeks. Is
Bob gonna go change because or Bob can't change?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I think Bob is being by I don't think. I
don't think he knows what to do. I don't think
it's who he is. So much of this has formed
at a really young age. I'm going to share a
story of a client of mind shoes in her early seventies,
and she went through my coaching program and she exited
with a boyfriend. And this boyfriend was seventies wealthy. He's
(19:57):
got a place in Paris, he's got a yacht. He
dote about her. He was really, really nice to We
got nothing bad to say about this man. She didn't
feel connected to him for this reason. He was just
a guy who did well in life. He was a
nice person. He was a devoted boyfriend. But she didn't
actually have a connection.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
She wouldn't go deep.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
They just did stuff together.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
They did like diction transactional.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But not even like the rich man beautiful woman transactional.
It was it was like, come and join my beautiful
life and we will have we will have everything. And
the thing she wanted was the emotional connection, and this.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Dude didn't have the bandwidth.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, he just wasn't that guy. And she waited like
eight months for him to be that guy. But the
truth is she knew this in the first six weeks
of dating him. But the package was so was so
tempting that she's like, all right, let's just see if
this develops.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Of course, and there are people that both parties are
very disconnected and from a very stoic background, and the
both of them stay married for thirty years because it's
just like, no one needs to move the needle that's
not of your deep person. You can't be with a
shallow person right after
Okay, So I was just talking to someone about I'm
not going to overstate this. I'm just going to say
it as a as a framework about making an analogy
to business with relationships only as it pertains to both
parties bringing something to the table. So, for example, I
have a relief work partner. We were just talking about
(00:34):
the fires, and his name is Michael Caponi, and it's
my longest marriage, he and I. It's been seven years
and under the most stressful times in the war, like
more stressful than I've ever had in any relationship, like
we almost got scammed on thirteen million dollars worth of
hazmat suits or in the Ppe crisis. He was like, Beth,
and I'm going to fucking jump off a balcony. Are
(00:55):
you killing me? Like you know, I'm on his ass.
I was on his ass last week about something like
It's but he I've never met someone who can keep
up with me and who has exactly is exactly as
valuable and proficient, but in completely different ways. And there's
never a question about who's doing more work or who's
(01:15):
bringing more to the table. It's sort of like all
in good faith and we both like are It's a
really equal partnership, even though it has like we literally
do completely different things at different times. So the reason
I bring that up is because in relationships, I don't
think it should be like a tit for tat where
it's like you have to do this and I have
(01:36):
to do that. But I think that there should be
sort of it's not it's not it's like sort of
the if it's important to you, it's important to me.
It's the unconditional thing. It's it's the not not the
things that they did or that you did, but both
of you sort of want to put chips in the
middle of the table just because you want to. The
best relationship that I've ever been in is one where
(01:56):
I want to give, like the way I am with gifts,
Like we want to give more than you want to receive,
and then hopefully the other person wants to give more
than receive and then you know, all boats rise at
the tide. So I kind of wanted to talk about
that because I've been in situations where I'm the giving
tree and then I bend and then I break, and
once you've broken, you can't mend it. And like people take, take,
(02:18):
take and push push, push, and just accept that they
are the taker in the relationship. But I think it's
sort of the mistake my kindness for weakness thing. So
I wanted to talk about that whole like meat.
Speaker 2 (02:29):
It's interesting as you're talking, I'm sitting here taking notes
because there's a lot to chew on here. I think
you're correct in that the central metaphor of my coaching
is that you're the CEO of your love life, and
men are the interns applying for a job, and you
have to see if he's worthy of this job. And
there's one job at the company. It's a really important job,
(02:52):
and so it's a lot based on not just how
his resume looks, for how he interviews at the beginning,
but the consistent effort he continues to put in over
time once he has the job.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
Wow, I keep forgetting that that's your main thing, and
that's the most important thing. If I only operated like
that every day, that's a great premise.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
But sincerely, if I were talking to men, I'd say,
you're the CEO, and we need to pay attention to
how she makes you feel, to how she treats you.
That's the two way street. So whoever I'm talking to.
I'm giving them the sense of power that you don't
have to put up with this bullshit.
Speaker 1 (03:26):
But that's with the tide, that's what you're saying. That's
all bangers. That's having an all star team in your
office versus one person dragging everybody down. That's the same thing, right.
Speaker 2 (03:36):
And so you you mentioned both people wanting to be givers.
No one could have a successful relationship if there's one
giver and one taker. Now what makes that more complicated
is that we're all experts on what we give and
what we sacrifice.
Speaker 1 (03:49):
Right.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
We always pay.
Speaker 2 (03:51):
Attention to what we do. We don't always know what
other people are doing. So your premise itself is a
good one. It's the right one. If you find that
you're always given a relationship, well, I guess from here
on end.
Speaker 3 (04:02):
You got a data giver. But there's also lots of
forms of giving. Right.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
I'm married to a woman who hasn't worked since we
had kids. Her giving is gonna look different than my giving, right, Right,
And I'm going to value that because that's what she
has to give. She's an active service person, right, So
we have to look at this through different lenses. Last
thing that based on your notes. That I wanted to
(04:27):
bring up, which I think is also important, and it's
not to poke fun at you, is that I want
a guy who keeps up with me, which is true.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
No one's going to argue.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
That you shouldn't have to use smaller words for a
guy to keep up, right, Like that's true. But what
a lot of people forget is that in addition to
keeping up with someone, there's putting up with someone right,
and humility. That last piece is kind of everything for
a relationship. There's just knowing, Hey, I'm a lot, and yeah,
(04:58):
I want a man who could keep up with me,
but also I want of men who could put up
with me and all the stuff that comes with it
and having that humility.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
And it's not just you. I could say the same
thing about myself.
Speaker 1 (05:06):
But I would reframe that and say who celebrates you?
Because putting up with is a little net Like, for example,
I was out to dinner with the Gate couple the
other night. They've been together for I don't know, it
might have been fifteen twenty years, and they're great and
one of them is like a finance guy, and one
of them is more of a creative like media guy,
and he's more funny and wacky, and he's the peacock.
And the finance guy really celebrates you know. The other
(05:30):
guy like isn't like rolling his eyes, it's not too
much like he likes when he gets lit and crazy.
And they were saying, you need that, like you need that,
you're the you, and the other person totally gets a
kick out of it, loves when you get lit, et cetera.
Not the light dimming, but also not like yeah, not
(05:50):
the light dimming, and not someone who doesn't want to
be part of the circus. Someone who appreciates the circus,
loves the circus. Like to me, that's that's what we're saying.
It's not just putting up with it's celebrating it.
Speaker 3 (06:01):
Right, But it's both.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
And obviously that person's going to be attracted to all
the things that make you you, right, so we need
we need both. And thinking, of course, if a woman
likes a man who's got charisma, my wife, my wife,
you know, had a whole series of charismatic boyfriends who
cheated on her, right, that's her thing.
Speaker 3 (06:22):
Her dad was charismatic.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
So if someone likes charisma, that is going to be
a thing that she's drawn to like a moth to
a flame. There's also what comes with that, exactly right,
which someone does indeed have to put up with. Oh,
every time my husband goes to a party's going to
be surrounded by women.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Oh yeah, No, it's the rose that has pedal and thorns.
That's what I think.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
Yeah, right, So that's what I'm saying is recognizing that
all good qualities come with bad qualities. And yes, we
could celebrate what makes Bethany Bethany. And there's a there's
a downside to the circus, and he is the guy
who's willing to put up with that, and that's no
small thing.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
Right, Let's also talk about this. So there's two things. One,
there's a guy, Nick Viiel. He has a podcast. I've
never listened to it, and I know I think he
(07:18):
was on reality TV or The Bachelor or something, but
I saw a clip from his show where he was
talking about hookup culture, which is not what I'm really
talking about, but he was basically saying, no man will
ever like fall in love with you for the sex
they fall in love with, like the mystique and what
they can't have. He was saying, like, you know a
lot of women will try to keep giving, whether it's
(07:40):
of sex or of emotion or of a material to
try to like you're chasing the dragon, trying to get it.
And there's another woman on social media that has a
black Cat Golden Retriever theory. She's like, don't be giving
him a bunch of gifts, don't be going out of
your way. She's like, she believes in the black Cat
Golden Retriever. That like, you want to be the black
cat and the guy the Golden Retriever like that, And
(08:04):
so I want to know what you think about these
sort of like unintentional gamifications of it, like the guys
want what they can't have type of thing.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
I'm taking copious notes because it's interesting to hear what
other people have to say and the metaphors people use
to get these complex ideas across. And so Nick Viles
thing that men are not just driven by hookup culture.
Being the most beautiful woman on the planet is not
going to land you a husband. That, in my estimation,
is one my wife used created a term that I
(08:39):
still use in coaching to this day. Men look for
sex and find love.
Speaker 1 (08:44):
Well, wait, there used to be a movie called Sex
lives and videotape. It was years ago. It was an
amazing movie and eighty nine right, and it was men.
I forgot this. This is amazing. Men learn to love
the women they're attracted too, and women learn to be
attracted to the men that they love.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Yeah, and again it's more complicated than that, but that's
basically the right idea. So that's why when people reach
out for coaching, I don't spend any time. There's enough
out there on giving you beauty advice on your skin
and your hair and your lips and all that kind
of stuff. You don't need a mail dating coach to
tell you to do.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
That.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
Presentation is what's going to draw him in. But every
man has had the experience of breaking up with someone
who's beautiful because the relationship didn't work for him. Why
doesn't the relationship work for him generally because he doesn't
feel accepted, appreciated, or admired. Right, you could be the
most beautiful woman in the world, You could be a
top chef, supermodel, Rhodes scholar. But if he doesn't feel
(09:42):
accepted as he is, appreciated for what he does or
admired for what gifts he does, bring to the table.
He's probably not going to feel emotionally satisfied in the relationship, right, But.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
What if he shouldn't be appreciated because he's not meeting you, or.
Speaker 3 (09:55):
You shouldn't, then you shouldn't date it exactly.
Speaker 1 (09:57):
Okay, so let's talk about that. So let's talk about
you with someone and they don't appreciate you or they're
not meeting I think it's really you know, and again
bring up someone else. I don't think it was her
original concept. With Kristin Cavalari, another podcaster, I heard a
clip she said, match their energy. And the truth is,
for me, it's more than just that, because that's like
a little quip. For me, it's meeting you where you're at,
(10:19):
meeting you halfway, which is why I bring it back
to business, like you know, when someone's meeting you halfway,
even if it's not perfect, even if it's my partner Michael,
that we kill each other. I know that even if
I'm doing it wrong or he's doing it wrong, that
he's meeting with me where I'm at, He's making the effort.
He's like trying to be a partner. And that's what
I think it's about. Not being perfect and not getting
(10:41):
it right the intention.
Speaker 2 (10:43):
He's bought into the larger concept and that works in business.
That also works in marriage, right, like if you're keeping score,
you're already losing.
Speaker 1 (10:52):
Right.
Speaker 2 (10:52):
And my second book, we talk about something called the
platinum rule. The golden rule is due onto others. The
platinum rule is do more right. Just just constantly give, give, give,
And if you find that you're giving and you're on
the losing end and you feel depleted because your efforts
are not being appreciated or reciprocated, well then you're in
a losing relationship that's straining your energy and you should
(11:13):
find a better partner, a better job than that.
Speaker 1 (11:15):
Okay, So say that's your job, that's your partner. So
now you decide that you care about the person, but
this is not going to work for you, okay. Because
I always think about the friend zone. The friend zone
is often a place that people go in they're dating,
But what about when people break up? So what I
mean is often there's a guy that likes a girl
and he's put into the friend zone. It's very difficult
to get out of there unless a woman is at
a low point for some post New Year's eve disaster
(11:38):
that happened, and then she goes to the consolation prize
safety school and that never works. That's the friend zone.
What about the friend zone post relationship? What about you
break up with someone you're not getting what you need,
but they want to have you in their lives and
put you in the friend zone. My opinion for those
people is it's kind of the cow in the milk.
(11:59):
I don't think you get any You don't get the
access pass for like just the cherry pick of what
you want, but now the rose and the pedals. You
got to do the work and get the bad and
the good. You're gonna have to tolerate the bad to
get to get the good. You don't get the friend
stuff alone. Do you agree with that?
Speaker 3 (12:14):
Mac?
Speaker 2 (12:15):
And I think you I've said since I've mentioned I
think you've got really really great instincts for this based
on your experience, and I just have, you know, language
that I've developed over the years to talk about that.
What you're talking about I called the emotional booty car.
Yeah right, I get all the benefits of having a partner,
just without the sexual betait I could be there for me.
Yeah right Again, I mean we've been there right where
(12:37):
someone breaks up with me in my early thirties and
I write her online dating profile. I want to show
her what a great guy I am. And I'm just
sitting there like a bitch, you know, like hoping she
realizes she made the biggest mistake of her life and
she's getting all the benefits of the boyfriend, right. And
that's what people do when they're feeling weak and needy.
And the truth is, if you're the CEO and you're
(12:59):
firing the in turn, the intern doesn't get to keep
on coming back to work.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
Look at you. Yes, you need to have on my
new website that's coming out like a little section with
just these like little digestible bites. Yes, exactly. You fire
the intern. They don't get to come back to work,
even if if you fire your fucking number two or
your partner.
Speaker 2 (13:19):
Yeah, and it doesn't mean you don't care about them
or wish them well, but they don't get to keep
on showing up at the office or expecting a half
of a paycheck. And that's what people do in relationships
because it's hard to cut the people.
Speaker 1 (13:29):
They reach out to you. You can give them a referral.
You could talk to them, but you're not the day
to day person. You don't you don't blow them out
where they died, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
It's a huge loss, right it is. It's a loss.
Speaker 2 (13:40):
It's a morning for people to process when you think
this is your person and then suddenly that person you
leaned on is no longer there. Both people are going
to miss that. But you need to have the courage
to say, I can't move on if I'm spending half
my time with my ex.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Right and I can't find a new person to fill
this position, if I'm still letting this person come in
and file two days a week exactly. Okay, So that's excellent.
I love your analogy. I think it works really well,
and I have to reinforce it because I forgot about it.
And it's very good for people. So that's excellent.
Speaker 3 (14:20):
I don't want you to forget about your black cat.
Speaker 1 (14:22):
Oh right, that's the woman who said black cat golden retriever.
She's a woman on TikTok and she's very probably on
Instagram too, and it does work. She'll show you people
and she'll say ebbs and flows and relationships too. At
one point, you're the black cat at one point, you're
the golden Retriever, etc.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
I what I don't like about that is that it's
playing power dynamics. Yes, and it's a little bit nineteen
nineties rules base. I'm trying to manipulate him into So
go back, let's go back to work. You don't have
to put a gun to the interns head and say
show up for work. They show up early, stay late.
(15:00):
Why they're self motivated. They want the job. A guy
should be a golden retriever, but not because he's weak,
but because he desires the opportunity to be in your
company and claim you as a partner and as the CEO.
Your job is not to be the black cat. Your
job is to be like Google, how do I make
an environment? Hey, we're gonna have We're gonna give.
Speaker 3 (15:22):
You free food. We're gonna give you massages and therapy.
Speaker 1 (15:24):
We're gonna that's the King and Queen thing. You're making
them your king.
Speaker 3 (15:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:29):
Yeah, How do we make if you are the woman CEO,
how do we make the intern incentivized to say this
is the best goddamn job I've ever had. The black
cat is not trying to do that. She's trying to
do this sort of dopamine hit give tape, walk away, and.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
It's very It's a good point because you know, actually
this is an excellent point because having been in dynamics
like this, you get a high and then you get
a low. You get it's like a binge eating and
then beating yourself up about it. It's not a good feeling.
You get the reaction you want for the wrong rea,
like you ignore, you match the energy you do. Whatever
(16:03):
the gamification is. The person responds for the wrong reasons
because they're game. They don't even know they're playing a game,
but you're withdrawing. So they're telling you how great you are,
how beautiful you are, and they leaning in. But then
five seconds later the rubber bank goes right back and
they're who they were. And it's a very not satisfying
junk food binge purge model. So I agree.
Speaker 2 (16:23):
So games which work in finger quotes, games work, but
they beget more games than that insanability. Yes, they're not pleasant, No,
they're not pleasant. If a guy got you like he's
your boyfriend, then make him feel like a million bucks.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
No, But if you do make them feel like a
million bucks, and then he pulls back and withdraws because
of that dynamic. Some people it's the attachment disorder or
the avoidant disorder, and some people are needy and attach,
and then the minute that somebody who has avoidant feels
the attachment from the attached person, they then withdraw And
it feels like games, but it's psychological.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
You're correct, ethony, But that brings me back to don't
date someone who's avoidant, period. Great, like if that's if
you being authentic and showing up and giving, Like, hey man,
you were gone on.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
A business trip for a week. I sent a car
to the airport.
Speaker 2 (17:15):
I made your favorite dinner when we got home, right,
I put on my cutest thing when we go back
to the bedroom.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
And he's like, whoa, babe, this is a little much
for me.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Well, that you don't want that guy, That that's a
signal to run when you are emotionally available giving, and
that sense him running in the opposite direction. So fifty
percent of the population of men are secure can form
intimate attachments, and so it feels differently. It feels a
lot safer. There's a lot less games, there's a lot
(17:46):
less rollercoaster. You might even say sometimes it's boring, why
because he does exactly what he says he's going to do.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
That's not meeting you where you're at. That's the same
thing I'm saying. That's not meeting you where you're at.
And I say, you're married to that person. And like,
I've heard many different examples from people's parents, to their
own relationships to even kids that are disconnected, Like they
don't really experience or explore emotions. They're sort of avoidant.
And I know someone who's in a very serious relationship
(18:12):
with someone that basically it took a while for them
to realize, you know, we never really get deep, we
don't really connect. I know someone who's married to someone
for twenty years that they don't feel that they've ever
really had deep conversations with. They've had loving experiences and
fun and kids and all this stuff, but they really
don't have deep connections. And you have to get deep
on your own and be deep to realize that avoidance.
(18:33):
And it's sort of like not having a satisfying meal
over the course of your lifetime. So let's say you're
in a relationship with someone who is avoidant and there
is a gamification in your relationship. You're married to them.
Can someone change if the if they have the threat
of losing you or the fear of losing you, can
a person who's like that actually change.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
I don't want to be the person to declare how
the world works entirely. I have my theories. I don't think.
I don't think you could have a relationship dependent upon
someone changing for you. I would never bank on it,
of course already, right, That's what I'm saying. So people
changed by their own volition. You're look in the mirror
of New Year's Eve, I'm twenty five pounds overweight. Okay,
(19:16):
this is the year that I'm gonna that comes from within.
But Bob, We've been married for twenty five years. I
don't think I've ever had an intimate conversation with you.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Go I don't know. But what about Bob.
Speaker 1 (19:29):
I'm leaving and then you leave for six weeks. Is
Bob gonna go change because or Bob can't change?
Speaker 2 (19:35):
I think Bob is being by I don't think. I
don't think he knows what to do. I don't think
it's who he is. So much of this has formed
at a really young age. I'm going to share a
story of a client of mind shoes in her early seventies,
and she went through my coaching program and she exited
with a boyfriend. And this boyfriend was seventies wealthy. He's
(19:57):
got a place in Paris, he's got a yacht. He
dote about her. He was really, really nice to We
got nothing bad to say about this man. She didn't
feel connected to him for this reason. He was just
a guy who did well in life. He was a
nice person. He was a devoted boyfriend. But she didn't
actually have a connection.
Speaker 1 (20:16):
She wouldn't go deep.
Speaker 3 (20:18):
They just did stuff together.
Speaker 1 (20:19):
They did like diction transactional.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
But not even like the rich man beautiful woman transactional.
It was it was like, come and join my beautiful
life and we will have we will have everything. And
the thing she wanted was the emotional connection, and this.
Speaker 1 (20:34):
Dude didn't have the bandwidth.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
Yeah, he just wasn't that guy. And she waited like
eight months for him to be that guy. But the
truth is she knew this in the first six weeks
of dating him. But the package was so was so
tempting that she's like, all right, let's just see if
this develops.
Speaker 1 (20:49):
Of course, and there are people that both parties are
very disconnected and from a very stoic background, and the
both of them stay married for thirty years because it's
just like, no one needs to move the needle that's
not of your deep person. You can't be with a
shallow person right after
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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