November 22, 2023 • 26 mins
Part 2 of Chris Cuomo…because Bethenny had more to ask and Chris had more to say. What’s his relationship now with Don Lemon? What feelings does he have towards CNN? And what does the future hold?
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:11):
So who do you forgive? And how do you move forward?
You're moving forward? Are you're forgiving? Who do you have
to forgive? Do you forgive CNN? Do you watch it?
Do you forgive Jeff Jeff Zucker? Do you still hold anger?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Like?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
What's what's the arc?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I think it's always about degree, right, I mean CNN,
that's easy. I love CNN. I miss the people there.
I think it's an amazing organization. People are full of
shit when they say that CNN is no good and
all that nobody covers news internationally the way that place
does a foreign correspondence I've ever seen in my life.
(00:48):
So I love CNN. Do I watch CNN? Absolutely? And
I wish all those people's success, and I'm jealous of
their success, and they're going to have success. I don't
have a beef with CNN. I have a beef with
my bosses at the time, and they're rationale for firing
me because it was a bullshit rationale. All you running
to them?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
You're in the Hamptons. You ever run into them?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah, a little bit. I mean, you know, I'm careful
about it, and I don't want anybody to the way
I'm not here to hurt anybody, eat anybody up. It's
it's hurt full. Now where does forgiveness come in. Where
it comes in is I get why they did what
(01:31):
they did. I get what the pressure points were, I
get what they were afraid of because I know they're
not telling the truth. But again, I know why this
story was what it was.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Cover your ass. You have to cover your ass. You
think they're a great place, and they didn't get there
by like, you know, playing fast and loose. You think
they're just covering their ass.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I mean, in my situation, that's absolutely what it was.
Why I'm litigating. But it's not this guy's good. You know,
this guy's bad, this woman's bad. I don't play that game.
What happened happened. I don't want to see anything bad
happen anybody. I don't believe in that shit. It takes
a lot of energy from me. I don't believe in it.
(02:13):
And if I want something bad to happen to you,
I'm gonna do it, and then I'll pay. I'll take
the consequences. I've done that before in my life, where
I've been like, this fucking guy is going to get
his ass beat right now.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
But you're not saying, don't hate the player, hate the game.
You understand the whole game, the mask, machines, the chest,
the whole deal.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
It's just like they look, hate whoever or whatever you want,
as long as it gets you to a better place.
And it just worked for me. Forgiveness is very hard.
I suck at it personal level. I believe I deserve
no forgiveness. Everything I do is intentional. It's not like
I was too stupid said this thing to my son,
(02:50):
or that I should have done this to my buddy,
or you know, it's I know and I do stupid
shit anyway. So likewise, and then it's next, and that's
the part that I focus all my time on. Now.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So what is now? Let's hear what's what? Well, what's next?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Well, I mean it's totally about context. It's like, what's
what's next? I never do podcasts. I never do.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I didn't know that. Thank you? What made you do
this podcast?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I'll tell you why. One you've always been good to me.
Uh And two it was who am I not to
do her podcast? Like, you know, she's given me an opportunity.
It's nice of her to do it. Why wouldn't I
do it? Who fuck am I? You know I can't.
You know. I like what you're about. I like how
you've built yourself and you know, your brand, And the
(03:44):
whole point I'm trying to do here is to try
to take what I've been through, to take what I
know is true about the world around us and the
situations that we all live, and you know, help people
with it.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah. I really wanted to talk to you, and then
I guess, Oh, two things. One, don lemon, do you
speak to him? Do you see him out there? You
guys friends?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
No, the situation screwed us up because, uh, he decided
to believe things, you know, on his own basis. I
get it. I wish him no ill. He's a beautiful
guy and I want good things, and he's a talent.
But you know, the situation fucked up a lot of
relationships for me.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, it's like the rip tide.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
But again, you know, you gotta go forward.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah. I saw him in the Hampton's and I think
I talked to him about coming on, and he looked
like it was a little deflated. He looked handsome, and
he's lovely, and he was nice, and he just looked
like he was like overall confused, like what you know?
What am I doing?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
What am I? Am?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I going here? Am I going there? It's just it's
it's an interesting thing to talk to you and have
seen him on the street, and I was like, you
should come on and talk.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
He will have opportunities. He is very talented and I
do not you know, I missed the relationship. I wish
him well. He has it wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But you know, listen, you never know cooler minds prevailed.
You don't know where he is right now. He's been
through his own experience.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I don't. I don't, uh, you know, listen. I reached
out to him as soon as he was in trouble
to say I'm here, okay, and anything I can do.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
He hired my lawyer, by the way, Oh he did well.
By the way, everyone's going to think that. So Brian
Freeman is Chris's lawyer and I guess Don's lawyer. I
have referred people to him in this reality reckoning, but
Brian is not my lawyer. But I didn't call. I've
been asking for Christopher a long time. I have a
list of people that I just would like to talk
to you since the beginning. So it's coincidental, but yeah,
(05:47):
so oh I didn't know don so great you guys
all are working with Brian if I.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Had bad intentions you know, for him, which I certainly don't.
But it sucks. Yeah, sucks. Yeah, people that matter to
you in your life for bad reasons sucks. But forward, yep,
you know, and you you know, forgive yourself or whatever
you did in the situation. Kind of kind of scotch
(06:16):
taped to a task of promise to try to learn
and do better. If there is something in that.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
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Speaker 5 (06:27):
Right or Strong and Wilfredell.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
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Speaker 5 (06:31):
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Speaker 4 (06:34):
And now Pod Meets World, the podcast where we've been
sitting down weekly to rewatch the show we start in
as kids, and we've been unpacking well a lot.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And we've been taking the show on the road with
the Kids Want to Jump Tour where every stop in
cities across the US has been totally different and pretty
hilarious if I do say so myself.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
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Speaker 4 (07:02):
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Speaker 2 (07:17):
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Speaker 5 (07:21):
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Speaker 4 (07:28):
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Speaker 3 (07:41):
Now.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So what's your rose and your thorn? Of your career?
Not your life, not your wife, not your kids. The
rose and the thorn may not be something we expect.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
It's funny when you say rose Rose is my producer.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Oh, your current producer.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
She does all.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So forget you have you have another rose. You have
two roses in your career.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
What you tell you, But in my life you know,
it's a it's a it's a good question, and that's
a hard question. The thorn is my emotional baggage, my
(08:37):
emotional uh, the the the experiences and the personality formation
as a response, and I'm not talking about Listen, this
is the truth. Okay. What happened with my brother, what
happened with me and CNN is very low on the
(08:57):
list of bad things I've gotten through in my life.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
That's why I asked it.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
And you know, and I'm very careful to say. Look, look,
I'm not feeling sorry for myself. It sucks to lose
your job, and it was a little bit more than
a job because it was kind of a platform. But
I'm okay with that. I don't like how it happened.
It's created challenges for me. I'll probably have to work
longer now that I was going to before, and there's
all this other bullshit. I'm alright with that. I don't
(09:22):
like what happened to my brother, but I don't believe
that you get to stay in that space for any
amount of time. This suck to what happened to you
now what you know, you don't have the choice. I
get it, you don't like it now.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What you know, Well, I didn't ask you about the
money because before you get to your rose, I didn't
ask you about the money at concept because when I
left house was I thought about how am I going
to piece this all together for the because you have
a nut bigger nuts? So are you noisy with the money?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Now?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
It's it's hard and this is expensive, by the way,
and I'm the only one playing with my own money
in this litigation. And you know, ah, the money has
been an issue, but I'm working on it. It's part
to fix but I am not. And maybe this makes me,
(10:11):
and I've been told this before, maybe it makes me
effective at my job. I have the ability to go
into situations that are incredibly frightening or painful, or fraud
or controversial and be okay with whatever comes at me
because of the emotional components of my personality that tell me, yeah,
(10:35):
bad shit should come you away. You know who's who
are you not to have it common to you? And
this is what you deserve anyway, So go stand in
the war zone and whatever happens happens, do the job.
And this person's pain, I'm not going to start crying. Aunt,
not that I'm okay with people emoting when they're on TV,
but don't think that every journalist who's out there doesn't
want to emote that way. It's just there are a
(10:56):
lot of people who believe their job isn't to make
you feel storry for that, it's to make you feel
sorry for the situation. And I don't know either way,
but I think it helps me because I don't have
a good sense of self protection, and I protect other
people all the time. I'll stop I see somebody on
the side of the road. There's an eighty five percent
chance I'll stop. And I don't even know why I have.
(11:19):
The time, they're scared shitless because like this vanilla gorilla
gets or whatever I'm driving, and they're like, but you know,
I'll help you get a flat tire or help you
need a ride and help you know whatever it is.
Why why not? But when you don't, you know, when
you have that damage, when you have that that dynamic
(11:40):
of not believing. And that's why I always joke when
people to me, when people are like, well, you know,
he's a little arrogant. I am almost from a personality perspective,
incapable of arrogance. I don't believe that I'm better than
anyone at anything. It's why I'm able to unpack failure
(12:03):
when someone well she killed this guy with Well, let's
find out why.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You're being very humble. You're not positioning this, you're not
sugarcoating it, you're not frosting it. You said like, I
can't like you. You've leaned into that, which I respect.
I think that's so secure. I think it's very secure
to just say what happened.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Weren't I wish it weren't this way. I wish that
I could be like people that I learned from and
that I live with. Who are I'm awesome? I'm awesome.
I'm not perfect, but I'm awesome. I love who I
love who I love how this is. I love that
I got this table, I love this.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
House right, this is all.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I want to be that way. I want that way.
I would tell you to be that way. Be hyper
positive on yourself, be super optimistic about yourself. Sell yourself up.
Life will bring you down and create the market for you.
You never sell your.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Good not good line, but I don't do it. Yeah, Okay,
that's a thorn, you.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Know, So that's I am my own thorn. What is
my my rose? Is this this? I have a feeling
that is you know, so, it's just a feeling. You know,
(13:28):
it's not tangible, it's not it's even ineffable. You know,
it's a nebulous thing. It's not like even defining. I
have a feeling that conveys a couple of very absolute
ideas to me, which is, I believe in better. I
(13:53):
believe that I'm supposed to be involved in the dynamical
going through because I wasn't going to come back in
the media if Dusty hadn't come to me and said, Wow,
you've been a lot of shitty things in the thirty
years I've known you. You will never acquit her, never.
(14:13):
And now you're just curled up on the floor like
a little bitch, to use her words. She loves calling
me that, by the way, And you know, just sitting
here nursing a tequila bottle. Get up and get back
in media. You were supposed to You're supposed to be there.
I have a feeling that as uncomfortable as this is,
(14:37):
I mean, even this, I you know so, I would
much rather be having this conversation with you at a
restaurant right now you know than doing this. Why are
people going to take shit out of context?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And they're not. They're not. They're not, they're not. I
mean maybe some things. I can't control everything, but they're like, I.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Know what I'm saying, and I know what but I'm
just saying, that's just what it is. Yeah, but I
think for this, and my feeling tells me you signed
up for it. You can help here, okay, it matters, okay,
And you got to have a purpose driven life. And
(15:18):
I can't just make money. I worked at a great
law firm. I've had so many friends throw opportunities at
me to either be in the cell side of hedge funds,
of private equity or all these different things. I worked
in mesity finance so many different ways to make so
much more money than I was making, and I was
(15:39):
you know, I.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Got that too.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
It doesn't work for me. I'm saying that I like
to take care of my family. I like that they
don't have to worry about things. I like that I
don't have to. I mean, I do now because I'm
in a fucking barrel. But the I'm a grinder and
I'm a warrior. I'm not brave enough to go serve
(16:03):
my country. But you know, I love to watch them
when they're serving our country. And you know, I mean,
I'm not a hero. I'm not. I don't have that
kind of bravery. But by disposition, I'm okay with a fight.
I'm okay getting hit. People in my business. Sure, you
want to shine, but you don't want you know, you don't.
(16:25):
You don't you don't want the smoke. Okay, you don't
want it to be about you. Why that's scary. Now,
there's like a real judgment basis for me, it's not
how good my organization is doing, you know, because everybody's
rating is a derivative of the overall. But I was
okay with that. I was like, all right, I'm gonna
get my ass kicked. And most of the time I
(16:46):
feel like I'm like this, you know, when they're coming
at me, it's like, you know, it's like just take it.
There's going to be like fifty of these. And then
I'm like, Okay, I still want to do the job.
I still want to do that. I still believe in it.
That's my role. That feeling that I believe.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
That is a rose because most people don't even know
what they want and usually if you put it out there,
the universe will hear you. And that sounds too spiritual,
but I'm saying or whatever, power positive thinking, the secret,
whatever it is. I know that if I want something,
the craziest thing, it doesn't matter if it's superficial or not.
It'll come if I really am intentional about wanting it.
(17:27):
So you know what you want. You just don't know
exactly what shape it takes.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, and it doesn't matter to me as much, you know.
And you know something I get heat from my friends.
You know that. It's it's always so funny to me
how I'm seen versus how I am when there's absolutely
no artifice to me. I'm no different on TV than
when I'm off TV. I just don't curse as much.
But you know, I I take on a lot of
(17:53):
positions and test positions that I actually agree with, and
I'm okay with whatever makes somebody happy.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, my rose is this interview of the day. You know,
I want to I want I did this to have
real conversations, like I wanted to do this not only
with you, but overall because it's like therapy, it's learning.
I wanted to hear your about your journey. I wanted
to let you tell your story like whatever you know
now then tomorrow, Like I just wanted to kind of
(18:31):
massage it and hear it. And I'm really grateful that
I went with my gut and like only a couple
of interviews. Some interviews go like two and a half
hours because they're like multi part but I'm so glad,
like we got to talk because I think you're amazing
and interesting And it takes courage what's going on now?
And it takes courage to like admit, you know, oh,
what did you fuck anything up?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
What do you?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
What'd you fuck up? Sorry? Last question? But what what'd
you fuck up?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Everything? Everything? I fucked up my platform, my brand, my goals.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
No, but how what what? What mistake did you make?
You had to make a mistake?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I mean I was so so many.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
For someone else's takeaway at their job, like what you know,
pigs get fought, fat hogs get slaughtered. You overplayed your hand.
You thought you thought your bosses were your best friends.
Like what's the takeaway?
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Ah, the takeaway is that I gave in to external judgment.
Ultimately that because I wouldn't do anything differently. I wasn't
gonna not help my brother. I offered to resign more
than once, and I was told, you don't have to,
(19:46):
it's okay, and they'll say things came out. What the
fuck came out? I never contacted any media to help
my brother by doing him a favor. And the reason
you know that is you don't think they'd raised their
hand and say he called first thing. Would I never
went after any accusers. You don't have to believe me.
Listen to the people who did, and they'll tell you
(20:07):
how useless I was in their process. And so you know,
to me, you.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Didn't go with your gut. You should have resigned. You
kept offering it it but but the money had to
be really good. The ratings were really good. Like what
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
If I had taken a leave to help my brother,
how do I know they would have let me back in?
And they would all, he can't come back in now,
not after he helped his brothers. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
So you really don't know. You don't know what you
could have done differently.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
This is the this is the transferable wisdom, the you know,
the old Shakespeare of to thine own self be true?
You can judge yourself very harshly. I'm not telling you
not to. I certainly do. Every external judgment is a
mistake for you. Your own reasoned choice of what is
(21:00):
right and wrong and good and bad, as long as
you're not delusional, is the only thing.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Totally no regrets.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I made a mistake there. I didn't. I didn't think
about the external judgment. I didn't. I didn't weigh it.
I didn't. I didn't calculate it, and then I gave
it too much importance and I allowed it to change
me for a time, and I learned. But I mean,
(21:30):
you know, it's not like I make shoes, you know.
Being in the media, you sign up to have people
judge your worth, that is, and some people will say
you're amazing and you're not, and some people will stuck
and you don't. It is artificial in my world, this dynamic,
(21:56):
and I'm aware of that, and I have recalibrated it.
And the choices that I make and how I do
the show and how I live my life and how
I've stopped allowing things to antagonize me mostly has changed.
(22:16):
And I have a much I have a much tighter
window of care, like even when things are really.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I see that, I see that. I see that. I
like the age too, same same thing, like you really
just want to do what you want to do and
what you know is right, and you really don't suffer fools.
It's very different, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
It's like, Yeah, I was talking with this guy who
were like going back and forth. He was being the
media lies, look at your audience in the eye and
tell him that I do them all the time. I
was bullshit historyonics and at one point he was like, yeah,
and you know this is what you did. You crossed
the line, covered for your brother. And I said, of
course I was there for my brother. Of course I did.
(22:59):
And all this media comes out with headlines Fomo admits
that he covered for brother. That was so disingenuous. They
all know that they're twisting the content that game and
I signed up for step for this.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Well, you saw the rose and the thorn of that game.
That's for fucking sure.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And it was a good reminder. It will ever change
for me. Nobody's going to take news Nations up over
one hundred percent since I joined. They're not gonna tell
you why, because they don't give a shit about helping me.
Because a lot of them don't think I should be
in it. A lot of them don't like that I'm
I'm doing well, you know, whatever it is, but you
(23:45):
just build it in. The lesson for people is external
judgment is to be mitigated. It is to be minimized.
Even one's loving you up, you're so good at this,
or when your kid, I love you, mommy, I love you, daddy.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Ellen told me that don't believe the love, don't believe the hey,
stay right in them. Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
And just look, you know, you know, whether what you
did for them was so extraordinary, Oh, whether or not
your performance in this thing is something that you're proud
of now and that don't be me category on my podcast.
So much of what I'm saying is one I'm no guru.
I'm just telling you what I know and what I
usually fuck up on. So don't be like me. Is
(24:33):
be nice to yourself, forgive yourself your mistakes. Life is
going to be the one that kicks your ass. Don't
help I love that this well, but look, helln't you
doing your podcast. It's kind of part of this process
for me because my inclination is I don't I don't
(24:54):
even want to deal with it. I don't want to
deal with it. I don't I don't want the upside,
you know, she school, you know, congratulations, podcasts is awesome.
I don't want it. She shouldn't be talking to me.
I don't want to deal with what's gonna happen. I'm
gonna go downstairs and I'm gonna try and get rid
of the chipmunks, you know, I you know, that's where
my head takes me. But instead, you know, also it's helpful.
(25:18):
I know, I'm gonna see if it's helpful for people
to kind of make sense of their own situation. Yep,
fucking amazing. That's all that's all about.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Thank you, Chris, so good talking to you. I can't
wait to see you in the Hamptons.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Whenever you want. I'm thankful for the opportunity and I
need to we'll get with it this season because if
you think about it, when's the last time that anybody
has been talking about being thankful for anything? All we
do is shit about what's happened was worse, and this
(25:54):
is that. Yeah, this is a good opportunity to remember.
You know, we don't always have to nobody's gonna get
together on Thursday and say goods. Do the airing of
grievances like it was Festivus.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah, well, I'm thankful for this conversation and i'd like
opened my mind and it was a good it was great.
Thank you so much. So I'm thankful for this.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Whatever I can do for you, I'm always a call
away and thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Likewise, love to your family, I'll talk to you later.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Thank you, thank you,
So who do you forgive? And how do you move forward?
You're moving forward? Are you're forgiving? Who do you have
to forgive? Do you forgive CNN? Do you watch it?
Do you forgive Jeff Jeff Zucker? Do you still hold anger?
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Like?
Speaker 1 (00:22):
What's what's the arc?
Speaker 3 (00:24):
I think it's always about degree, right, I mean CNN,
that's easy. I love CNN. I miss the people there.
I think it's an amazing organization. People are full of
shit when they say that CNN is no good and
all that nobody covers news internationally the way that place
does a foreign correspondence I've ever seen in my life.
(00:48):
So I love CNN. Do I watch CNN? Absolutely? And
I wish all those people's success, and I'm jealous of
their success, and they're going to have success. I don't
have a beef with CNN. I have a beef with
my bosses at the time, and they're rationale for firing
me because it was a bullshit rationale. All you running
to them?
Speaker 1 (01:08):
You're in the Hamptons. You ever run into them?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
Yeah, a little bit. I mean, you know, I'm careful
about it, and I don't want anybody to the way
I'm not here to hurt anybody, eat anybody up. It's
it's hurt full. Now where does forgiveness come in. Where
it comes in is I get why they did what
(01:31):
they did. I get what the pressure points were, I
get what they were afraid of because I know they're
not telling the truth. But again, I know why this
story was what it was.
Speaker 1 (01:43):
Cover your ass. You have to cover your ass. You
think they're a great place, and they didn't get there
by like, you know, playing fast and loose. You think
they're just covering their ass.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
I mean, in my situation, that's absolutely what it was.
Why I'm litigating. But it's not this guy's good. You know,
this guy's bad, this woman's bad. I don't play that game.
What happened happened. I don't want to see anything bad
happen anybody. I don't believe in that shit. It takes
a lot of energy from me. I don't believe in it.
(02:13):
And if I want something bad to happen to you,
I'm gonna do it, and then I'll pay. I'll take
the consequences. I've done that before in my life, where
I've been like, this fucking guy is going to get
his ass beat right now.
Speaker 1 (02:24):
But you're not saying, don't hate the player, hate the game.
You understand the whole game, the mask, machines, the chest,
the whole deal.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
It's just like they look, hate whoever or whatever you want,
as long as it gets you to a better place.
And it just worked for me. Forgiveness is very hard.
I suck at it personal level. I believe I deserve
no forgiveness. Everything I do is intentional. It's not like
I was too stupid said this thing to my son,
(02:50):
or that I should have done this to my buddy,
or you know, it's I know and I do stupid
shit anyway. So likewise, and then it's next, and that's
the part that I focus all my time on. Now.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So what is now? Let's hear what's what? Well, what's next?
Speaker 3 (03:10):
Well, I mean it's totally about context. It's like, what's
what's next? I never do podcasts. I never do.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
I didn't know that. Thank you? What made you do
this podcast?
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I'll tell you why. One you've always been good to me.
Uh And two it was who am I not to
do her podcast? Like, you know, she's given me an opportunity.
It's nice of her to do it. Why wouldn't I
do it? Who fuck am I? You know I can't.
You know. I like what you're about. I like how
you've built yourself and you know, your brand, And the
(03:44):
whole point I'm trying to do here is to try
to take what I've been through, to take what I
know is true about the world around us and the
situations that we all live, and you know, help people
with it.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
Yeah. I really wanted to talk to you, and then
I guess, Oh, two things. One, don lemon, do you
speak to him? Do you see him out there? You
guys friends?
Speaker 3 (04:08):
No, the situation screwed us up because, uh, he decided
to believe things, you know, on his own basis. I
get it. I wish him no ill. He's a beautiful
guy and I want good things, and he's a talent.
But you know, the situation fucked up a lot of
relationships for me.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, it's like the rip tide.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
But again, you know, you gotta go forward.
Speaker 1 (04:32):
Yeah. I saw him in the Hampton's and I think
I talked to him about coming on, and he looked
like it was a little deflated. He looked handsome, and
he's lovely, and he was nice, and he just looked
like he was like overall confused, like what you know?
What am I doing?
Speaker 3 (04:46):
What am I? Am?
Speaker 1 (04:47):
I going here? Am I going there? It's just it's
it's an interesting thing to talk to you and have
seen him on the street, and I was like, you
should come on and talk.
Speaker 3 (04:54):
He will have opportunities. He is very talented and I
do not you know, I missed the relationship. I wish
him well. He has it wrong.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
But you know, listen, you never know cooler minds prevailed.
You don't know where he is right now. He's been
through his own experience.
Speaker 3 (05:16):
I don't. I don't, uh, you know, listen. I reached
out to him as soon as he was in trouble
to say I'm here, okay, and anything I can do.
Speaker 1 (05:25):
He hired my lawyer, by the way, Oh he did well.
By the way, everyone's going to think that. So Brian
Freeman is Chris's lawyer and I guess Don's lawyer. I
have referred people to him in this reality reckoning, but
Brian is not my lawyer. But I didn't call. I've
been asking for Christopher a long time. I have a
list of people that I just would like to talk
to you since the beginning. So it's coincidental, but yeah,
(05:47):
so oh I didn't know don so great you guys
all are working with Brian if I.
Speaker 3 (05:51):
Had bad intentions you know, for him, which I certainly don't.
But it sucks. Yeah, sucks. Yeah, people that matter to
you in your life for bad reasons sucks. But forward, yep,
you know, and you you know, forgive yourself or whatever
you did in the situation. Kind of kind of scotch
(06:16):
taped to a task of promise to try to learn
and do better. If there is something in that.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
Hey, it's Danielle Fischel.
Speaker 5 (06:27):
Right or Strong and Wilfredell.
Speaker 4 (06:29):
But you know us best as Tapanga.
Speaker 5 (06:31):
Sean and Eric from Boy Meets World.
Speaker 4 (06:34):
And now Pod Meets World, the podcast where we've been
sitting down weekly to rewatch the show we start in
as kids, and we've been unpacking well a lot.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
And we've been taking the show on the road with
the Kids Want to Jump Tour where every stop in
cities across the US has been totally different and pretty
hilarious if I do say so myself.
Speaker 5 (06:52):
But we know not everyone can join us. So we're
happy to announce that our recent thirtieth anniversary of the
show live from the met in Philadelphia will now be
a to stream no matter where you live.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Our biggest show yet in the hometown of the Matthews,
featuring appearances by Trina Angela McGhee, Matthew Lawrence aka Jack Hunter,
Tony Mister Turner, Quinn, and Danny Harley McNulty, who makes
a very special surprise visit.
Speaker 2 (07:17):
It was so much fun and now you can experience
it from the comfort of your own home.
Speaker 5 (07:21):
It will be available on December eleventh at five pm Pacific.
You can learn more about how you can watch at
VEEPS Dot Events, slash Pod Meets.
Speaker 4 (07:28):
World December eleventh, your birthday Matts Boy. Get all the
info on streaming the live Pod meets World show so
you don't miss out. Go to veeps, veeps Dot Events,
slash Pod meets World.
Speaker 3 (07:41):
Now.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
So what's your rose and your thorn? Of your career?
Not your life, not your wife, not your kids. The
rose and the thorn may not be something we expect.
Speaker 3 (08:00):
It's funny when you say rose Rose is my producer.
Speaker 1 (08:03):
Oh, your current producer.
Speaker 3 (08:06):
She does all.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
So forget you have you have another rose. You have
two roses in your career.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
What you tell you, But in my life you know,
it's a it's a it's a good question, and that's
a hard question. The thorn is my emotional baggage, my
(08:37):
emotional uh, the the the experiences and the personality formation
as a response, and I'm not talking about Listen, this
is the truth. Okay. What happened with my brother, what
happened with me and CNN is very low on the
(08:57):
list of bad things I've gotten through in my life.
Speaker 1 (08:59):
That's why I asked it.
Speaker 3 (09:01):
And you know, and I'm very careful to say. Look, look,
I'm not feeling sorry for myself. It sucks to lose
your job, and it was a little bit more than
a job because it was kind of a platform. But
I'm okay with that. I don't like how it happened.
It's created challenges for me. I'll probably have to work
longer now that I was going to before, and there's
all this other bullshit. I'm alright with that. I don't
(09:22):
like what happened to my brother, but I don't believe
that you get to stay in that space for any
amount of time. This suck to what happened to you
now what you know, you don't have the choice. I
get it, you don't like it now.
Speaker 1 (09:36):
What you know, Well, I didn't ask you about the
money because before you get to your rose, I didn't
ask you about the money at concept because when I
left house was I thought about how am I going
to piece this all together for the because you have
a nut bigger nuts? So are you noisy with the money?
Speaker 4 (09:50):
Now?
Speaker 3 (09:50):
It's it's hard and this is expensive, by the way,
and I'm the only one playing with my own money
in this litigation. And you know, ah, the money has
been an issue, but I'm working on it. It's part
to fix but I am not. And maybe this makes me,
(10:11):
and I've been told this before, maybe it makes me
effective at my job. I have the ability to go
into situations that are incredibly frightening or painful, or fraud
or controversial and be okay with whatever comes at me
because of the emotional components of my personality that tell me, yeah,
(10:35):
bad shit should come you away. You know who's who
are you not to have it common to you? And
this is what you deserve anyway, So go stand in
the war zone and whatever happens happens, do the job.
And this person's pain, I'm not going to start crying. Aunt,
not that I'm okay with people emoting when they're on TV,
but don't think that every journalist who's out there doesn't
want to emote that way. It's just there are a
(10:56):
lot of people who believe their job isn't to make
you feel storry for that, it's to make you feel
sorry for the situation. And I don't know either way,
but I think it helps me because I don't have
a good sense of self protection, and I protect other
people all the time. I'll stop I see somebody on
the side of the road. There's an eighty five percent
chance I'll stop. And I don't even know why I have.
(11:19):
The time, they're scared shitless because like this vanilla gorilla
gets or whatever I'm driving, and they're like, but you know,
I'll help you get a flat tire or help you
need a ride and help you know whatever it is.
Why why not? But when you don't, you know, when
you have that damage, when you have that that dynamic
(11:40):
of not believing. And that's why I always joke when
people to me, when people are like, well, you know,
he's a little arrogant. I am almost from a personality perspective,
incapable of arrogance. I don't believe that I'm better than
anyone at anything. It's why I'm able to unpack failure
(12:03):
when someone well she killed this guy with Well, let's
find out why.
Speaker 1 (12:07):
You're being very humble. You're not positioning this, you're not
sugarcoating it, you're not frosting it. You said like, I
can't like you. You've leaned into that, which I respect.
I think that's so secure. I think it's very secure
to just say what happened.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
Weren't I wish it weren't this way. I wish that
I could be like people that I learned from and
that I live with. Who are I'm awesome? I'm awesome.
I'm not perfect, but I'm awesome. I love who I
love who I love how this is. I love that
I got this table, I love this.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
House right, this is all.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
I want to be that way. I want that way.
I would tell you to be that way. Be hyper
positive on yourself, be super optimistic about yourself. Sell yourself up.
Life will bring you down and create the market for you.
You never sell your.
Speaker 1 (13:01):
Good not good line, but I don't do it. Yeah, Okay,
that's a thorn, you.
Speaker 3 (13:07):
Know, So that's I am my own thorn. What is
my my rose? Is this this? I have a feeling
that is you know, so, it's just a feeling. You know,
(13:28):
it's not tangible, it's not it's even ineffable. You know,
it's a nebulous thing. It's not like even defining. I
have a feeling that conveys a couple of very absolute
ideas to me, which is, I believe in better. I
(13:53):
believe that I'm supposed to be involved in the dynamical
going through because I wasn't going to come back in
the media if Dusty hadn't come to me and said, Wow,
you've been a lot of shitty things in the thirty
years I've known you. You will never acquit her, never.
(14:13):
And now you're just curled up on the floor like
a little bitch, to use her words. She loves calling
me that, by the way, And you know, just sitting
here nursing a tequila bottle. Get up and get back
in media. You were supposed to You're supposed to be there.
I have a feeling that as uncomfortable as this is,
(14:37):
I mean, even this, I you know so, I would
much rather be having this conversation with you at a
restaurant right now you know than doing this. Why are
people going to take shit out of context?
Speaker 1 (14:47):
And they're not. They're not. They're not, they're not. I
mean maybe some things. I can't control everything, but they're like, I.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
Know what I'm saying, and I know what but I'm
just saying, that's just what it is. Yeah, but I
think for this, and my feeling tells me you signed
up for it. You can help here, okay, it matters, okay,
And you got to have a purpose driven life. And
(15:18):
I can't just make money. I worked at a great
law firm. I've had so many friends throw opportunities at
me to either be in the cell side of hedge funds,
of private equity or all these different things. I worked
in mesity finance so many different ways to make so
much more money than I was making, and I was
(15:39):
you know, I.
Speaker 1 (15:41):
Got that too.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
It doesn't work for me. I'm saying that I like
to take care of my family. I like that they
don't have to worry about things. I like that I
don't have to. I mean, I do now because I'm
in a fucking barrel. But the I'm a grinder and
I'm a warrior. I'm not brave enough to go serve
(16:03):
my country. But you know, I love to watch them
when they're serving our country. And you know, I mean,
I'm not a hero. I'm not. I don't have that
kind of bravery. But by disposition, I'm okay with a fight.
I'm okay getting hit. People in my business. Sure, you
want to shine, but you don't want you know, you don't.
(16:25):
You don't you don't want the smoke. Okay, you don't
want it to be about you. Why that's scary. Now,
there's like a real judgment basis for me, it's not
how good my organization is doing, you know, because everybody's
rating is a derivative of the overall. But I was
okay with that. I was like, all right, I'm gonna
get my ass kicked. And most of the time I
(16:46):
feel like I'm like this, you know, when they're coming
at me, it's like, you know, it's like just take it.
There's going to be like fifty of these. And then
I'm like, Okay, I still want to do the job.
I still want to do that. I still believe in it.
That's my role. That feeling that I believe.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
That is a rose because most people don't even know
what they want and usually if you put it out there,
the universe will hear you. And that sounds too spiritual,
but I'm saying or whatever, power positive thinking, the secret,
whatever it is. I know that if I want something,
the craziest thing, it doesn't matter if it's superficial or not.
It'll come if I really am intentional about wanting it.
(17:27):
So you know what you want. You just don't know
exactly what shape it takes.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
Yeah, and it doesn't matter to me as much, you know.
And you know something I get heat from my friends.
You know that. It's it's always so funny to me
how I'm seen versus how I am when there's absolutely
no artifice to me. I'm no different on TV than
when I'm off TV. I just don't curse as much.
But you know, I I take on a lot of
(17:53):
positions and test positions that I actually agree with, and
I'm okay with whatever makes somebody happy.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
Well, my rose is this interview of the day. You know,
I want to I want I did this to have
real conversations, like I wanted to do this not only
with you, but overall because it's like therapy, it's learning.
I wanted to hear your about your journey. I wanted
to let you tell your story like whatever you know
now then tomorrow, Like I just wanted to kind of
(18:31):
massage it and hear it. And I'm really grateful that
I went with my gut and like only a couple
of interviews. Some interviews go like two and a half
hours because they're like multi part but I'm so glad,
like we got to talk because I think you're amazing
and interesting And it takes courage what's going on now?
And it takes courage to like admit, you know, oh,
what did you fuck anything up?
Speaker 2 (18:51):
What do you?
Speaker 1 (18:51):
What'd you fuck up? Sorry? Last question? But what what'd
you fuck up?
Speaker 3 (18:55):
Everything? Everything? I fucked up my platform, my brand, my goals.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
No, but how what what? What mistake did you make?
You had to make a mistake?
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I mean I was so so many.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
For someone else's takeaway at their job, like what you know,
pigs get fought, fat hogs get slaughtered. You overplayed your hand.
You thought you thought your bosses were your best friends.
Like what's the takeaway?
Speaker 3 (19:24):
Ah, the takeaway is that I gave in to external judgment.
Ultimately that because I wouldn't do anything differently. I wasn't
gonna not help my brother. I offered to resign more
than once, and I was told, you don't have to,
(19:46):
it's okay, and they'll say things came out. What the
fuck came out? I never contacted any media to help
my brother by doing him a favor. And the reason
you know that is you don't think they'd raised their
hand and say he called first thing. Would I never
went after any accusers. You don't have to believe me.
Listen to the people who did, and they'll tell you
(20:07):
how useless I was in their process. And so you know,
to me, you.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Didn't go with your gut. You should have resigned. You
kept offering it it but but the money had to
be really good. The ratings were really good. Like what
you know what I mean?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
If I had taken a leave to help my brother,
how do I know they would have let me back in?
And they would all, he can't come back in now,
not after he helped his brothers. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 1 (20:32):
So you really don't know. You don't know what you
could have done differently.
Speaker 3 (20:36):
This is the this is the transferable wisdom, the you know,
the old Shakespeare of to thine own self be true?
You can judge yourself very harshly. I'm not telling you
not to. I certainly do. Every external judgment is a
mistake for you. Your own reasoned choice of what is
(21:00):
right and wrong and good and bad, as long as
you're not delusional, is the only thing.
Speaker 1 (21:06):
Totally no regrets.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I made a mistake there. I didn't. I didn't think
about the external judgment. I didn't. I didn't weigh it.
I didn't. I didn't calculate it, and then I gave
it too much importance and I allowed it to change
me for a time, and I learned. But I mean,
(21:30):
you know, it's not like I make shoes, you know.
Being in the media, you sign up to have people
judge your worth, that is, and some people will say
you're amazing and you're not, and some people will stuck
and you don't. It is artificial in my world, this dynamic,
(21:56):
and I'm aware of that, and I have recalibrated it.
And the choices that I make and how I do
the show and how I live my life and how
I've stopped allowing things to antagonize me mostly has changed.
(22:16):
And I have a much I have a much tighter
window of care, like even when things are really.
Speaker 1 (22:25):
I see that, I see that. I see that. I
like the age too, same same thing, like you really
just want to do what you want to do and
what you know is right, and you really don't suffer fools.
It's very different, you know.
Speaker 3 (22:38):
It's like, Yeah, I was talking with this guy who
were like going back and forth. He was being the
media lies, look at your audience in the eye and
tell him that I do them all the time. I
was bullshit historyonics and at one point he was like, yeah,
and you know this is what you did. You crossed
the line, covered for your brother. And I said, of
course I was there for my brother. Of course I did.
(22:59):
And all this media comes out with headlines Fomo admits
that he covered for brother. That was so disingenuous. They
all know that they're twisting the content that game and
I signed up for step for this.
Speaker 1 (23:18):
Well, you saw the rose and the thorn of that game.
That's for fucking sure.
Speaker 3 (23:23):
And it was a good reminder. It will ever change
for me. Nobody's going to take news Nations up over
one hundred percent since I joined. They're not gonna tell
you why, because they don't give a shit about helping me.
Because a lot of them don't think I should be
in it. A lot of them don't like that I'm
I'm doing well, you know, whatever it is, but you
(23:45):
just build it in. The lesson for people is external
judgment is to be mitigated. It is to be minimized.
Even one's loving you up, you're so good at this,
or when your kid, I love you, mommy, I love you, daddy.
Speaker 1 (24:04):
Ellen told me that don't believe the love, don't believe the hey,
stay right in them. Yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
And just look, you know, you know, whether what you
did for them was so extraordinary, Oh, whether or not
your performance in this thing is something that you're proud
of now and that don't be me category on my podcast.
So much of what I'm saying is one I'm no guru.
I'm just telling you what I know and what I
usually fuck up on. So don't be like me. Is
(24:33):
be nice to yourself, forgive yourself your mistakes. Life is
going to be the one that kicks your ass. Don't
help I love that this well, but look, helln't you
doing your podcast. It's kind of part of this process
for me because my inclination is I don't I don't
(24:54):
even want to deal with it. I don't want to
deal with it. I don't I don't want the upside,
you know, she school, you know, congratulations, podcasts is awesome.
I don't want it. She shouldn't be talking to me.
I don't want to deal with what's gonna happen. I'm
gonna go downstairs and I'm gonna try and get rid
of the chipmunks, you know, I you know, that's where
my head takes me. But instead, you know, also it's helpful.
(25:18):
I know, I'm gonna see if it's helpful for people
to kind of make sense of their own situation. Yep,
fucking amazing. That's all that's all about.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
Thank you, Chris, so good talking to you. I can't
wait to see you in the Hamptons.
Speaker 3 (25:34):
Whenever you want. I'm thankful for the opportunity and I
need to we'll get with it this season because if
you think about it, when's the last time that anybody
has been talking about being thankful for anything? All we
do is shit about what's happened was worse, and this
(25:54):
is that. Yeah, this is a good opportunity to remember.
You know, we don't always have to nobody's gonna get
together on Thursday and say goods. Do the airing of
grievances like it was Festivus.
Speaker 1 (26:05):
Yeah, well, I'm thankful for this conversation and i'd like
opened my mind and it was a good it was great.
Thank you so much. So I'm thankful for this.
Speaker 3 (26:13):
Whatever I can do for you, I'm always a call
away and thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 (26:17):
Likewise, love to your family, I'll talk to you later.
Speaker 3 (26:20):
Thank you, thank you,
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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