August 20, 2025 • 32 mins
Dr Sarah Hensley is back to decode the dismissive avoidants in our lives. PLUS: Is it harder to date if you're famous?
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Speaker 1 (00:13):
Okay, so how are you? I am doing really well.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I'm great?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
And for those listening, this is Sarah Hensley, who we've
talked to before, and her specialty is attachment theories. Yeah,
since I knew you were coming on, I thought of
just some like topics in relationships to just throw out
that I've talked about on social media. You've probably heard
me talk about and I'm sure you have an opinion
about it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So the first one is breadcrumb guy.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, bread crumbing cool.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
So breadcrumb guy. And of course I talk from my
own experience, but it's crazy to me the people that
reach out to me about it. So yes, thousands bat
millions of people reaching I mean I thought, like thousands
of you reach out to me who are hearing it,
validating it, Like I just say something that just like
(01:05):
jumps off the page to me, but like no one's
ever said it before specifically this.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Way, and then like and then I'll have like.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Celebrities that you guys all know text me and be like,
oh my god, like freaking out.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So let me expla exactly what I said was.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
People always talk about like young guys at these like
bro types or like the finance guy who's like an
idiot and I've been through that phase, or I've dated
that guy, I've converted that guy, and like that guy
texts or wants a booty call with some girls, or
like last minute plans and just like juvenile. So there's
(01:46):
like there are different brands of men, and that is one,
but like the breadcrumb guy, which can be a younger guy.
But what I was specifically speaking about was that one
might think that a man in their fifties would be
at like a life maturity relationship level where they would
be more sort of consistent and reliable. And this is
(02:10):
a blanket theory, but my perspective has been that many
men have been married for decades they get divorced or separated.
This is also like stereotypes and setting women back, but
in their lives, the women have handled a lot in
the house and the kids and the sports uniforms and
(02:32):
the pick up and drop off, and these guys are divorced.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
They're used to being in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
They now have more money, they've got their cars, they're
like working, they know how to do that part, and
they've like lost this sort of ability to try or
engage or emotionally interact. They don't seem emotionally intelligent, and
so they are often breadcrumb guy, Like they think like
they're gonna get involved with you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
They are somewhat of a catch.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
They've got some money and they're just going to text
you and like that's going to be enough. And then
because they're quote unquote working, they can sort of like
disappear and that you're going to just like take these
scraps and we as women are older and wiser and
hopefully have some financial independence, and we're like, what are
you talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
We'd rather be alone.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, what do we.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Need that for? You're like a freaking caveman.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I think I think the decade of like the guy
in his fifties is probably more of the dismissive avoidant
man whose wife finally was like, you're out of here
because our kids are grown and I can't be in
a loveless marriage anymore. So they kind of had this
pattern for a while in their marriage where they were
emotionally unavailable and did what we call deactivating, which is
(03:46):
just kind of go into their internal shell. And they
think now that they're single, dismissal avoidance, really view themselves
as like I just had an incompatible partner. They really
have a really hard time self reflecting on their own behavior,
and so then they get out of these marriages. They're
in their fifties, you know, their kids are grown, and
then they just toss out these breadcrumbs and they think
(04:09):
people are going to like fall over themselves to catch them,
and that is not what they're finding. And a lot
of them come to me and they're like, why can't
I find somebody that wants to date me? And I'm like, well,
let's talk about your dating strategy. Let's talk about your
level of comfort with your own emotions. And they look
at me with a blank stare like what are you
talking about my comfort level with my own emotions? And
(04:30):
I'm like, do you feel your feelings? Can you differentiate
your emotions more than like happy, sad, angry? And they're
like no, like I know, and I'm like okay, and
I'm not okay, Like that's the level of emotional intelligence
of that breadcrumb guy. And so he doesn't really get it,
like he doesn't understand why the breadcrumbs aren't enough, because
in his world, that's what he gave his wife for
(04:52):
so long was just these bread crumbs, and breadcrumbing can
really be a bad thing for somebody who has more
attachment insnxiety because the inconsistent reinforcement of like sometimes you
get something from them and then other times they're a
ghost or they don't put in much effort. It creates
a lot of anxiety for those who have more attachment
insecurity based and anxiety, and so it can be this
(05:14):
really up and down roller coaster for those folks who
sort of latch onto whatever they can get in these breadcrumbs,
and then they end up getting their heartbroken because dude
just can't He just can't commit. He just is thinking, no,
I got to live my best life. I gotta like
find the one. My wife wasn't the one, And really, yeah,
lamor is that he's probably not compatible with literally anybody
(05:37):
because so emotionally unavailable and he doesn't realize it right.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
And even if someone self reflects, it's hard to constantly
do that because you're in your own mind and your
own feeling. Meaning when you feel sad or you have anxiety,
you feel that feeling, you're not really thinking about the
fact that what it really means underneath or like why
it is it's hard to like constantly label yourself because
you're inside your own heart mind and you know so.
(06:04):
And also I think that person, I think that person
often puts their entire body and life into work. And
if there is no work, or if work doesn't exist
as an outlet for that person, then they're in a
really bad space because they don't have the relationship to
rely on and they don't have that easy other crutch
(06:26):
or the kids, as it's been stated that person like
invests more in their kids. If they don't have all that, like,
they really can only look inside.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And that's that's.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Grim, right, it is, and dismissive avoidance. Especially the most
unavailable emotionally type of person, they use work as a
strategy to stay suppressed in their emotions. Like actually, you know,
diving into work and staying distracted is what keeps them
disconnected from their emotions, and so they have to have
something to disconnect themselves because they've never learned how to
(06:57):
process emotion or to be in good relationship to self,
and so they use work. I always say das are
always workaholics or hobby aholics a lot of the time,
and it's because pouring their energy into that thing is
what keeps them distracted from their own inner world that
they don't know how to connect with. And if you
can't connect with your own inner world, you're going to
struggle to connect with somebody else's emotions and inner world.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I also think that person is often in relationships that
don't require a lot of maintenance, but that also makes
them like go lower because then you somehow know that
like you're taking the path of least resistance.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Absolutely, I mean they definitely take advantage of the more
anxious types who will sort of self abandon and drop
their boundaries and like throw their needs under the bus. Doormats, Yes, dormats,
very much so. And it's really it's really sad because
those individuals are just they're trapped by that intermittent reinf enforcement.
(08:00):
And that is actually the concept behind all of addiction.
Like everything that is addictive has intermittent reinforcement. Like drugs,
you get high and then you're low, and so when
you're high, the need is met. When you get off
the drug, it's not meant gambling. You bet your money,
you win, the need is met, you feel great. You
bet your money, you lose. Making you have anxiety about
(08:20):
losing that money and wanting to bet again. So when
breadcrumbing happens, it is that intermittent reinforcement that is always
going to create anxiety and addiction to those that are
very susceptible to that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It's a hit, you take it.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, what about the.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Love bomber? So for me, there are a couple things
that I've experienced. Now I have ticket seven months without dating,
and for me, I mean I've heard people say it
does wonders to be celibate for a year or really
too it can only be like a cleanse, which is good,
like you start reintroducing things back in and you see
(09:01):
how it works. But for me, you know how, once
you're quote I don't believe in like being good or bad.
But once let's say you are in a cleanser, you
don't eat sugar or you're not drinking, like, you get excited.
You get days under your belt and you're excited. It
feels like that about not dating, and at what at
some point you're just like I just reached a point
where when someone says, well just go, you never know,
(09:22):
you might have fun, I'm like, no, the guy doesn't
live in a place where we're like, no, there's no
having fun. I won't find that fun if the guy
at this age is not a guy that I'm going
to want based on like he lives in Milwaukee and
I'm not going to visit him there or like something fundamentally,
he's a Jehovah's witnet like whatever the thing is, Like
he has six kids.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Someone had.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
A guy who's a billionaire has five kids. I'm not
going to be in a relationship with I'm with five kids.
I don't care if they're three or seventy five years old.
I don't want to deal with a man that has
to deal with five kids. I'm allowed, right, it's my life.
I'm allowed to not want to deal with I don't.
I don't want to have to date a guy who
was blue Eye. If I don't want to, my choice totally.
(10:02):
So it's like almost on like so strict. Now so
strict because I haven't had dairy and let's say seven
months or like I have, but I'm in like a man,
so I'm not introducing it unless it's really worth it. Okay,
So I was thinking about the love bomb guys because
there are different guys that have come and like, I
(10:25):
think they're aware of this with me. They've either heard
me say it publicly or they aware and it's almost
like a challenge to them. And so they want to
convince me based on things that I've said on social media,
which is a massive red flag. By the way, do
not communicate to me via. But they want to convince
me of what they are, Like I'm not I'm really mature,
and I'm really drama free and I'm really this and
(10:45):
I'm like, but I like you, I'm not interested.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I'm out of try. So I've told people.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Like in a nice way, and then one guy was like, really,
I promise you'll be happy you've met me, Like, honestly,
you need to be a little more relaxed, like I
don't know you, I don't need to be anything, and
that like assaulting me emotionally.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yeah, I mean I think from following you now for
a while, I can tell that you have a great
relationship to yourself, and that's really important, Like you have
to love who you are. You have to know who
you are, you have to know what you want, and
you have to be unapologetic about that because authenticity is
the most regulating thing to the human nervous system. And
so if you are introducing yourself to someone and you
(11:24):
know off the bat it's not going to be authentic
because they don't have really what you're looking for. There's
some circumstance or like you said, where they live or
where they are in their life. What's the point because
obviously you have a good relationship to self because you're like,
I'd rather just be in relationship to myself doing the
things that I enjoy doing, you know, and not waste
my time on these people where you might get attached
(11:47):
or something and then there's this bake incompatibility that you
would then be stuck trying to navigate through.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And that's just not worth it.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And that's really what securely attached people can do that
insecurely attached people can't do, is you know, say this
is who I am. I'm unapologetic about it, this is
what I want, and I'm not going to take anything
less right. If you are coming at me trying to
convince me of who you are, I kind of see
that as a red flag. Like people that are that
(12:15):
are deeply know that they are good people and that
they have something really good to offer, don't need to
convince you of that right up front. They are comfortable
and confident enough to know that when you do go
on a date with me, you're going to see these
good qualities. I don't have to brag about myself. I
don't have to, you know, put myself under this spotlight
to try to show you that I'm awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
That screams red flags to me.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And that's a little addictive too, like no, no, no,
just get it, get in here. Once you're here, you're
gonna like me. And like I get being pursued. Being
pursued is different than what we're talking about. I like
(12:59):
you saying I would write a chapter in a book
called what's the point. It's called like I don't like
when there's something about First of all, I'm not one
who likes city things. I don't like to do, and
I don't like to be shackled and trapped and don't know,
like so it's like, why don't you get the whatever
I'm getting that It's like I don't want it because
I don't want that because I want steak and not chickens.
(13:19):
So it doesn't matter, like why I don't have to
explain to you? And I also so it's like, what's
the point?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Is great? Right?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
You could this could be a gorgeous hiking vacation in
the Red Rocks. I don't want to hike. I don't
like hiking. I want to be by a beach. I
want to ski, I want to hang glide. I don't
want to So there's no point And it might be
like you maybe try it, you might like it, Like
I don't want to like it because the guy doesn't
live where I want to live and I don't want problems.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
At this age, it's different than when you're twenty five.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Right, And so why not spend the time doing what
you want to do with people you want to be around,
instead of setting up the situation that you know eventually
you're gonna have to navigate something about it that you
really don't like, and then there's feelings potentially mixed in
why go there?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And I think it's different at a different age too,
which is also what's the point. If you're in college,
I'm just having fun, Great, then go out with seventy
five guys. Great, you're just having fun, that's your goal.
I think it's important for us to know what our
goals are, like they could change but you we get like,
you get diverted and you get in the wrong car, yeah,
because it looked shiny and you got in, and now
(14:24):
you're driving so far you don't know where the hell
you even are and when you started and what you
wanted because you've convinced yourself, like you get you go
on the day with the wrong person, you think he's hot,
You have good sex, you get hooked in set. Twelve
months later, once the beer goggles are off, you're like,
fuck and I knew this.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
But like it's the great narcissist and like it's horrible,
And then you are You're like, how in the heck
did I get here? I mean, that's my entire first marriage, honestly, Yeah,
entire first marriage.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
You know, I've just.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Wrapped up in the looks and and the you know,
just fast pace of his life, and I got kind
of who dud And there was so many red flags
that I ignored because I was already attached. And of course
I had a lot of insecurities back then that I
don't have now. But it's just I tell people, like,
the best relationship you're going to have is the relationship
(15:13):
to yourself and secure people have this good relationship to
self where if they start dating somebody and they see
these red flags, they're like, okay, well, you know, I'm
okay facing detachment because I'm going to walk back into
this good relationship that I have with myself and I'm
okay with that. Whereas insecure people, especially with those with
attachment anxiety, they just don't know how to really be
(15:34):
happy in relationship to self, in their aloneness and a
life that they are in total control of and that
they have built. And that's why that journey to become
securely attached is so important, because it allows you to
detach when you see those types of red flags, like
if you did get whodued by the love bombing, you know,
and you start to realize that the mask is falling
(15:55):
off and they're verbally abusive or there they start breadcrumbing
you out of the blue, or you know, they lie
to you or you know, cheat on you or whatever.
Secure people are going to go that is really yuck,
Like I don't want anything more to do with that.
The pain that you're causing me. This isn't worth it.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
It doesn't even have to be that, though there could
be someone who's just so desperately love bombing, and you
become their entire identity. I've seen that a lot too,
Like I've had this where I'm a person's everything, and
like I have to fulfill all their needs because I'm
enough for them. But like, I didn't sign up to
(16:33):
be like the yin and the yang is every single
second of every day. I didn't want to be like
Batman and Robin, Like I want to have my own
life too.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Sure, I mean the goal is definitely interdependence, and what
you're describing is more codependence.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Someone was like you, no, you kind of complete me,
and like I'm not okay if you're not okay, And
you know, I don't see myself in any other way
without you in the picture. Like I don't have my
own hobbies, I don't have things that I like to
do on my own. You know, we're not okay if
we spend one night apart for it, right right, right, right?
Like that that's not healthy. That's not interdependence. Interdependence is both.
(17:06):
You know, we have a good relationship, but we also
have independence in all life outside of each other that
is fruitful and that we enjoy and we're not just
completely consumed with each other and it's our identity that
you are my partner.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So I totally agree with that.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Another thing is that I've found my people and honesty
and being able to say, like everybody doesn't have to
want to be in a relationship. Like there's this thing
with women and it seems like more traditional values right
to be like, oh, you're going to end up alone?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay, then what happened? What do we like?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I look at Jennifer Anison. She's on the cover of
Vanity I look at Jennifer Anison. She's on the cover
of Vanity Fair magazine. Now she's been in many relationships.
People talk about Jennifer Lopez like the Jennifer is Like,
let's pretend that people are so saying, oh, this is
why they're alone or they can't hold a man or whatever.
(18:05):
Like I don't know how these women feel, but if
they haven't been happy in their relationships and they haven't worked,
then being alone is better. If they're not being abused
in a relationship or unhappy in a relationship, or cheating
on or being cheated on, Like being alone is better.
Like for so long people have gotten away with just
(18:26):
safe saying these throwaway comments like that, like, oh, she's
gonna end up alone. Yeah, she might because she might
a want to be and I have found someone good
enough and see it doesn't want to give away her time,
her money, her vagina whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Like I am. I would like to meet someone. I
would like to.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Not date in the way that I have where I
always settle in some way, get really close, I get
like eighty percent there, and I know I'm only eighty
percent there, and I don't go all the way. This
is the first time that I I've really held back
and held the horse back in the stall because I'm like, nope,
that's why it's been seven months. I'm not too picky.
(19:09):
It's none of that. I'm doing it or I'm not,
and I'm okay. I understand the consequences. I may not
find it and then I'll be alone. Some people are like, well,
I need to be supported, or I need to have sex,
or I need to live with someone, or I need
to marry some illegally, whatever their reasons are, and they
know the deal. But for me, I'm in my negotiation.
I'm getting what i want or I'm being alone. I
(19:31):
am my big girl. I know the consequences. I bet you,
Jennifer and Aison knows the consequences too, absolutely, I bet you.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I bet you.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Jennifer Lopez knows the consequences too. She has money, she
has kids. She may not want to be alone, but
she may be being alone because she's not gonna you know,
she doesn't want to be unhappy or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
But I hate that.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
I can even imine the additional pressure of being famous
and having your everybody scrutinizing you. You know, it's hard
enough to date, like just being a normal person, let
alone everybody commenting on it, everybody maybe publishing you know,
stories that aren't even really true about It's.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Not harder, though, I'll tell you why it's not harder.
It's not.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
It's a different, Okay, being in a cul de sac
in a small town and being alone and your whole
town is divided and you didn't get the divorced people,
or the husband makes the money and belongs to the club,
and you don't like that is sounds way more. It's
more like the Gilded Age the show right now, where
like your entire world is small and everyone knows, like
(20:33):
for us, we get to hide behind being famous and
doing amazing things, and we chose a career and all
that stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I'm not saying it's good. It's scrutinized, but it's not worse.
It's just different.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
That's interesting, that's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
I guess that just shows that, you know, the whole
process is hard, no matter where you're from or what
you're doing with your life, because relationships are difficult.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I mean, they are not They're not easy.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
They require a lot of work, and like I said,
it just it just goes to show that, you know,
when you really do become secure, you're not willing to settle.
You're just not willing to settle. You're not willing to
make these, you know, giant compromises in your life just
to have somebody around.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
No and even me having to give an explanation or
if Jennifer Anderson gives an explanation an article or whatever
the truth is, they're like, yeah, no kidding, Like what
do you think this is like a secret club that
no one realizes. We don't want to we don't want
we don't want a man. We're not bitter, we're not ugly,
we're not poor, and we have people that want to
be with us.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
We don't want it. I don't want it. I had
a woman that I know.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Who's attractive and smart and has some money, like nothing crazy,
but like as attractive as any other person and smart
and interesting, and she was like, I don't want to even.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Fucking messing with my piece. I've been through it. I
don't want it, like she doesn't want it.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Like a certain age, and then a lot of women
are like, oh, that's called menopause, which is funny too,
like and that doesn't mean you're defective either. You just
may be like no, cause there is a thing that
happens at a certain age where forgetting your by you're
just like, I don't really care. I don't care if
people think I just want to laugh. I want to
be with my kids. I want to be with my cats,
I want to be with my dogs.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I want to be alone.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I want to take a walk, I want to take
a bath. I want to use my vibrator. I want
to eat bombonds. I want to do what I will.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I don't men are fucking annoying, like and irritating.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I do. I get it.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
It's one of those people like the pendulum can swing
too far either way, like if you have to have
them or you're just like, no, I'm never open to
the possibility ever again in my entire life, no matter.
If it falls in my lap, then you know, then
I think you might there might be some avoidance. But
when you're just like, Okay, yeah it sums, then it's
and it's right and it's a good fit and it
falls into place for me, then then so be it.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
But if it doesn't, but.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You let's go back.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
You said there could be some avoidance. But the difference
is that's not hurting anybody else. It's a one man band, right,
You're right exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So it's an avoidant maybe. You know.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
For me, one of the reasons I want to be
in relationship is for my daughter. I want that unit,
I want that family, I want that tradition. I want
that for her. She's not crying or craving it. She's
an amazing life. It's something that I would like for her,
and I think it would be enhance her life. But
she is a wonderful life. But like, it's not what
you're So if you have a situation where you really
with like a partner for your kid, like a man
(23:28):
for your son, or some tradition, that's maybe the avoidance
could be hurting someone, but like, yeah, most part, it's
not really like it's really your own right choosing.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Yeah, it's when people that are really avoidant but that
they don't know that they're avoidant, and then they go
and they try to have these really intimate relationships and
a lot of dismissive avoidance actually do love bomb in
the beginning, like that's the only time that they feel
safe enough to connect. So they show up as this
person that's extremely interested and extremely you know, affectionate and attentive,
(23:58):
and then they rope people in and they do tend
to attract people who have more attachment anxiety, and then
they just flip that switch and they go into their
avoidance and they deactivate and they pull away, and it's
so painful for the person on the other end because
it's just like doctor Juckell and mister Hyde, like you
came in as one person and then just like in
(24:19):
no time, you became someone I don't even recognize, who
is just this distant kind of ghost. And that's when
it's hurtful. But it's totally fine to be like, you
know what, I don't want it right now, so I'm
gonna I'm not going to pursue something that I don't
want and then you end up hurting that person that's
not good, or you end up coming into a crossroads
where you saw that there was this incompatibility that had
(24:39):
always been there, but now you actually really have to
face it because it got real and now there's attachment
and there's feelings involved, and it becomes this huge deal.
So it's yeah, being alone is not hurting anybody. It's
not hurting anything.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Now, once you realize that you've been in a relationship
with dismissive avoidant, you detach and then they come and
play their games and you really just don't care. That's
been my experience. Like on once you've assigned the animal,
like once you realize like it's like a black cat
(25:12):
or it's a scorpion or whatever, like you're like, oh,
it's so clear, and you definitely don't have the same
unless you're just like an absolutely addictive person and then
you have your own issues like yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Savage.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
A lot of those people.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
I see a lot of those anxious people that are
with the dismissive avoidance, and a lot of them, you know,
they don't know what they don't know, so they're they're
married to these men.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Wow, that's scary.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
You've been like starved for any kind of affection or
emotion from their partner for like two decades, and they
have kids, and they have finances and maybe a lot
of these women they don't have their own money.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
One of the things my mom, and I'm so grateful
she did this. She sat me down one day when
I think I was like seventeen, and she was like, listen,
She's like, you're going to college next year. I don't
know if you'll meet somebody. I don't know when you'll
find the guy that you want to meet. But I'm
going to tell you one thing, and this is the
only piece of relationship advice I can really give. You
have your own money, Like whatever you do, oh god God,
(26:11):
have your own money, because you do not want to
end up with someone who is horrible to you and
then you're financially dependent upon them, and that is another
means of control. And that is exactly what happened in
my marriage. I needed to get out, and thank god
I had a really good job.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
What happens if you have to move to take care
of your parents and your husband changes his mind or
he has a nervous breakdown, like be smart. It could
be anything you want, but not at the cost of
having no freedom.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Yeah know, the risks is what I would say. I
would be like, really know the risks because everybody goes
into marriage thinking, like nobody goes in and they're like,
you know what, I think I'm probably gonna end up
divorced with this marriage. Like nobody does that. Everybody thinks,
you know, this is the one, We're gonna make it.
You know, we can work through anything. But the thing
of it is is people change. Like there's actually a
(26:59):
psychological theory about how we believe we are the person
that we are now is who are always going to
be And that's not true. Like they've actually done studies
and show just how dramatically people change over the decades.
And so you're not going to be the person in
ten years that you are right now. I mean, maybe
there are some core things about you, but the kind
of music you listen to, or what you like, or
(27:20):
your routines or your habits or you might get into
different hobbies. There are lots of things that are going
to change about you over the course of your lifespan
and you just can't count on someone else's behavior always
being what it is right now, like someone might but
I and then they're not.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
But I think that young girls all would never believe
not it's not going to happen to me. I don't
think that people would really hear that and digest that
that are young. Only people our age and of institutional
knowledge believe that.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think someone young can digest.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Somebody gets sick, somebody, you know, somebody's diagnosed with you know,
anxiety or depression or is byle or something like something
like drastic that could happen. Somebody gets in an accident,
somebody is a professional or an athlete and they get hurt,
Like what would actually happen if if the situations change?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, anyway, worst stories I've seen and.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so anyway, I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's just no the risks, don't take the risks, don't
take the risks, have a side, hustle, whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
I mean, I'm so glad my mom told me that
and like burned it into my brain. And I mean
my parents did not have a good marriage, but I
mean she did, you know, instill that in me, And
it was a lifesaver. It was the reason I could
get out from something that was really, really bad.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
And then the last thing is kind of related to
what we were saying before. I was talking about being
too pick you're too picky for who for you?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
For what? Like?
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Am I gonna go to a restaurant and I'm too bad?
I want to eat what I want to eat. I'd
rather not eat than eat something bad. So isn't it
my body my choice? Too picky?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I don't even understand what that means. I don't know. Okay,
picky thing. I think that's knowing what you want.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
And you know, you posted this this post and you're like,
I have seen people like have great fashion and then
like move up and be on these magazines. And she's like,
I could have had, you know, be styled any way
I want. And you show this bathing suit that was
like vac mode, like that basing bathing suit. Oh yeah,
that is so freaking authentic and just embodying your authenticity
(29:28):
of like I am who I am, I know what
I want.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I'm not going to settle for anything less.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
I don't give a crap if anybody doesn't like my
bathing suit, because I love my bathing suit, Like I
love this, I love this sparkly jacket. I love whatever
it is. Right, I'm not just going to just bend
the knee to whatever society thinks that I should want
or like. And I think the same thing applies to relationships,
Like you don't have to bend the knee and just
you know, date some guy just so you can be
(29:53):
seen dating or just so that you seem like you're,
you know, a good catch. No, you're just like I
know who I am and I don't need to prove
it to anybody. If the right thing comes my way, okay,
but but if not, I'm not just going to be
totally I'm going to go on the state just so
I can I can feel like worthy, right or flex
to whoever's watching.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, she's referring to this cheesy bathing suit that has
smiley faced and rainbow and puffy letters. And it was
so stupid, but like I was so attracted to it
because it just reminds me of my childhood and growing
up in Florida. And it was totally cheesy, but like
I have a cheesy side.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Like I'm aware that I'm not going to like go
to the met Gala because of it, but like, I
don't give a shit.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I love the bathing suit the same way.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
That like people are like, wait, you're really rich, what
are you doing on jet Blue? What do you mean
when I'm doing jet Blue? I'm doing what I want
to do. I'm doing It's the airport's forty minutes from
my house.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I'm doing. My daughter and I are there.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
I'm not spending fifty thousand dollars and having two pilots
and a giant plane and all this gasoline in this waste,
even though I can, I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I don't want to alone.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I love that your nervous system is probably very healthy.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Yeah, the times it was inauthenticity, like not being who
you are and caring so much about what everybody thinks.
It's so disregulating. It's so disregulating, and I can only imagine.
There are so many people, not famous people definitely, but
famous people that they're oh of that, yes, you know
(31:20):
who they feel like they have to be.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Oh my god, you have to watch Gilded Age. If
you haven't, you need to watch it. It's on my list.
I'm obsessed. And it's all about literally nothing matters if
no one else saw it. The society determines everything. It's horrendous. Yeah,
it's really crazy, so awesome. All right, well this was amazing.
I love having your own. I could talk forever and
(31:42):
ever and ever.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Does you want to walk to the utterm
Okay, so how are you? I am doing really well.
Speaker 2 (00:16):
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:17):
I'm great?
Speaker 3 (00:18):
And for those listening, this is Sarah Hensley, who we've
talked to before, and her specialty is attachment theories. Yeah,
since I knew you were coming on, I thought of
just some like topics in relationships to just throw out
that I've talked about on social media. You've probably heard
me talk about and I'm sure you have an opinion
about it.
Speaker 1 (00:38):
So the first one is breadcrumb guy.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
Yeah, bread crumbing cool.
Speaker 3 (00:45):
So breadcrumb guy. And of course I talk from my
own experience, but it's crazy to me the people that
reach out to me about it. So yes, thousands bat
millions of people reaching I mean I thought, like thousands
of you reach out to me who are hearing it,
validating it, Like I just say something that just like
(01:05):
jumps off the page to me, but like no one's
ever said it before specifically this.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Way, and then like and then I'll have like.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
Celebrities that you guys all know text me and be like,
oh my god, like freaking out.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
So let me expla exactly what I said was.
Speaker 3 (01:23):
People always talk about like young guys at these like
bro types or like the finance guy who's like an
idiot and I've been through that phase, or I've dated
that guy, I've converted that guy, and like that guy
texts or wants a booty call with some girls, or
like last minute plans and just like juvenile. So there's
(01:46):
like there are different brands of men, and that is one,
but like the breadcrumb guy, which can be a younger guy.
But what I was specifically speaking about was that one
might think that a man in their fifties would be
at like a life maturity relationship level where they would
be more sort of consistent and reliable. And this is
(02:10):
a blanket theory, but my perspective has been that many
men have been married for decades they get divorced or separated.
This is also like stereotypes and setting women back, but
in their lives, the women have handled a lot in
the house and the kids and the sports uniforms and
(02:32):
the pick up and drop off, and these guys are divorced.
Speaker 1 (02:36):
They're used to being in a relationship.
Speaker 3 (02:39):
They now have more money, they've got their cars, they're
like working, they know how to do that part, and
they've like lost this sort of ability to try or
engage or emotionally interact. They don't seem emotionally intelligent, and
so they are often breadcrumb guy, Like they think like
they're gonna get involved with you.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
They are somewhat of a catch.
Speaker 3 (03:01):
They've got some money and they're just going to text
you and like that's going to be enough. And then
because they're quote unquote working, they can sort of like
disappear and that you're going to just like take these
scraps and we as women are older and wiser and
hopefully have some financial independence, and we're like, what are
you talking about.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
We'd rather be alone.
Speaker 2 (03:18):
Yeah, what do we.
Speaker 1 (03:18):
Need that for? You're like a freaking caveman.
Speaker 2 (03:21):
Yeah. Absolutely.
Speaker 4 (03:23):
I think I think the decade of like the guy
in his fifties is probably more of the dismissive avoidant
man whose wife finally was like, you're out of here
because our kids are grown and I can't be in
a loveless marriage anymore. So they kind of had this
pattern for a while in their marriage where they were
emotionally unavailable and did what we call deactivating, which is
(03:46):
just kind of go into their internal shell. And they
think now that they're single, dismissal avoidance, really view themselves
as like I just had an incompatible partner. They really
have a really hard time self reflecting on their own behavior,
and so then they get out of these marriages. They're
in their fifties, you know, their kids are grown, and
then they just toss out these breadcrumbs and they think
(04:09):
people are going to like fall over themselves to catch them,
and that is not what they're finding. And a lot
of them come to me and they're like, why can't
I find somebody that wants to date me? And I'm like, well,
let's talk about your dating strategy. Let's talk about your
level of comfort with your own emotions. And they look
at me with a blank stare like what are you
talking about my comfort level with my own emotions? And
(04:30):
I'm like, do you feel your feelings? Can you differentiate
your emotions more than like happy, sad, angry? And they're
like no, like I know, and I'm like okay, and
I'm not okay, Like that's the level of emotional intelligence
of that breadcrumb guy. And so he doesn't really get it,
like he doesn't understand why the breadcrumbs aren't enough, because
in his world, that's what he gave his wife for
(04:52):
so long was just these bread crumbs, and breadcrumbing can
really be a bad thing for somebody who has more
attachment insnxiety because the inconsistent reinforcement of like sometimes you
get something from them and then other times they're a
ghost or they don't put in much effort. It creates
a lot of anxiety for those who have more attachment
insecurity based and anxiety, and so it can be this
(05:14):
really up and down roller coaster for those folks who
sort of latch onto whatever they can get in these breadcrumbs,
and then they end up getting their heartbroken because dude
just can't He just can't commit. He just is thinking, no,
I got to live my best life. I gotta like
find the one. My wife wasn't the one, And really, yeah,
lamor is that he's probably not compatible with literally anybody
(05:37):
because so emotionally unavailable and he doesn't realize it right.
Speaker 3 (05:41):
And even if someone self reflects, it's hard to constantly
do that because you're in your own mind and your
own feeling. Meaning when you feel sad or you have anxiety,
you feel that feeling, you're not really thinking about the
fact that what it really means underneath or like why
it is it's hard to like constantly label yourself because
you're inside your own heart mind and you know so.
(06:04):
And also I think that person, I think that person
often puts their entire body and life into work. And
if there is no work, or if work doesn't exist
as an outlet for that person, then they're in a
really bad space because they don't have the relationship to
rely on and they don't have that easy other crutch
(06:26):
or the kids, as it's been stated that person like
invests more in their kids. If they don't have all that, like,
they really can only look inside.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And that's that's.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Grim, right, it is, and dismissive avoidance. Especially the most
unavailable emotionally type of person, they use work as a
strategy to stay suppressed in their emotions. Like actually, you know,
diving into work and staying distracted is what keeps them
disconnected from their emotions, and so they have to have
something to disconnect themselves because they've never learned how to
(06:57):
process emotion or to be in good relationship to self,
and so they use work. I always say das are
always workaholics or hobby aholics a lot of the time,
and it's because pouring their energy into that thing is
what keeps them distracted from their own inner world that
they don't know how to connect with. And if you
can't connect with your own inner world, you're going to
struggle to connect with somebody else's emotions and inner world.
Speaker 3 (07:21):
I also think that person is often in relationships that
don't require a lot of maintenance, but that also makes
them like go lower because then you somehow know that
like you're taking the path of least resistance.
Speaker 2 (07:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (07:39):
Absolutely, I mean they definitely take advantage of the more
anxious types who will sort of self abandon and drop
their boundaries and like throw their needs under the bus. Doormats, Yes, dormats,
very much so. And it's really it's really sad because
those individuals are just they're trapped by that intermittent reinf enforcement.
(08:00):
And that is actually the concept behind all of addiction.
Like everything that is addictive has intermittent reinforcement. Like drugs,
you get high and then you're low, and so when
you're high, the need is met. When you get off
the drug, it's not meant gambling. You bet your money,
you win, the need is met, you feel great. You
bet your money, you lose. Making you have anxiety about
(08:20):
losing that money and wanting to bet again. So when
breadcrumbing happens, it is that intermittent reinforcement that is always
going to create anxiety and addiction to those that are
very susceptible to that.
Speaker 1 (08:32):
It's a hit, you take it.
Speaker 2 (08:35):
Right, Yeah?
Speaker 1 (08:36):
Yeah, what about the.
Speaker 3 (08:40):
Love bomber? So for me, there are a couple things
that I've experienced. Now I have ticket seven months without dating,
and for me, I mean I've heard people say it
does wonders to be celibate for a year or really
too it can only be like a cleanse, which is good,
like you start reintroducing things back in and you see
(09:01):
how it works. But for me, you know how, once
you're quote I don't believe in like being good or bad.
But once let's say you are in a cleanser, you
don't eat sugar or you're not drinking, like, you get excited.
You get days under your belt and you're excited. It
feels like that about not dating, and at what at
some point you're just like I just reached a point
where when someone says, well just go, you never know,
(09:22):
you might have fun, I'm like, no, the guy doesn't
live in a place where we're like, no, there's no
having fun. I won't find that fun if the guy
at this age is not a guy that I'm going
to want based on like he lives in Milwaukee and
I'm not going to visit him there or like something fundamentally,
he's a Jehovah's witnet like whatever the thing is, Like
he has six kids.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Someone had.
Speaker 3 (09:42):
A guy who's a billionaire has five kids. I'm not
going to be in a relationship with I'm with five kids.
I don't care if they're three or seventy five years old.
I don't want to deal with a man that has
to deal with five kids. I'm allowed, right, it's my life.
I'm allowed to not want to deal with I don't.
I don't want to have to date a guy who
was blue Eye. If I don't want to, my choice totally.
(10:02):
So it's like almost on like so strict. Now so
strict because I haven't had dairy and let's say seven
months or like I have, but I'm in like a man,
so I'm not introducing it unless it's really worth it. Okay,
So I was thinking about the love bomb guys because
there are different guys that have come and like, I
(10:25):
think they're aware of this with me. They've either heard
me say it publicly or they aware and it's almost
like a challenge to them. And so they want to
convince me based on things that I've said on social media,
which is a massive red flag. By the way, do
not communicate to me via. But they want to convince
me of what they are, Like I'm not I'm really mature,
and I'm really drama free and I'm really this and
(10:45):
I'm like, but I like you, I'm not interested.
Speaker 1 (10:46):
I'm out of try. So I've told people.
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Like in a nice way, and then one guy was like, really,
I promise you'll be happy you've met me, Like, honestly,
you need to be a little more relaxed, like I
don't know you, I don't need to be anything, and
that like assaulting me emotionally.
Speaker 4 (11:02):
Yeah, I mean I think from following you now for
a while, I can tell that you have a great
relationship to yourself, and that's really important, Like you have
to love who you are. You have to know who
you are, you have to know what you want, and
you have to be unapologetic about that because authenticity is
the most regulating thing to the human nervous system. And
so if you are introducing yourself to someone and you
(11:24):
know off the bat it's not going to be authentic
because they don't have really what you're looking for. There's
some circumstance or like you said, where they live or
where they are in their life. What's the point because
obviously you have a good relationship to self because you're like,
I'd rather just be in relationship to myself doing the
things that I enjoy doing, you know, and not waste
my time on these people where you might get attached
(11:47):
or something and then there's this bake incompatibility that you
would then be stuck trying to navigate through.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
And that's just not worth it.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
And that's really what securely attached people can do that
insecurely attached people can't do, is you know, say this
is who I am. I'm unapologetic about it, this is
what I want, and I'm not going to take anything
less right. If you are coming at me trying to
convince me of who you are, I kind of see
that as a red flag. Like people that are that
(12:15):
are deeply know that they are good people and that
they have something really good to offer, don't need to
convince you of that right up front. They are comfortable
and confident enough to know that when you do go
on a date with me, you're going to see these
good qualities. I don't have to brag about myself. I
don't have to, you know, put myself under this spotlight
to try to show you that I'm awesome.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
That screams red flags to me.
Speaker 3 (12:36):
And that's a little addictive too, like no, no, no,
just get it, get in here. Once you're here, you're
gonna like me. And like I get being pursued. Being
pursued is different than what we're talking about. I like
(12:59):
you saying I would write a chapter in a book
called what's the point. It's called like I don't like
when there's something about First of all, I'm not one
who likes city things. I don't like to do, and
I don't like to be shackled and trapped and don't know,
like so it's like, why don't you get the whatever
I'm getting that It's like I don't want it because
I don't want that because I want steak and not chickens.
(13:19):
So it doesn't matter, like why I don't have to
explain to you? And I also so it's like, what's
the point?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Is great? Right?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
You could this could be a gorgeous hiking vacation in
the Red Rocks. I don't want to hike. I don't
like hiking. I want to be by a beach. I
want to ski, I want to hang glide. I don't
want to So there's no point And it might be
like you maybe try it, you might like it, Like
I don't want to like it because the guy doesn't
live where I want to live and I don't want problems.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
At this age, it's different than when you're twenty five.
Speaker 4 (13:48):
Right, And so why not spend the time doing what
you want to do with people you want to be around,
instead of setting up the situation that you know eventually
you're gonna have to navigate something about it that you
really don't like, and then there's feelings potentially mixed in
why go there?
Speaker 3 (14:02):
And I think it's different at a different age too,
which is also what's the point. If you're in college,
I'm just having fun, Great, then go out with seventy
five guys. Great, you're just having fun, that's your goal.
I think it's important for us to know what our
goals are, like they could change but you we get like,
you get diverted and you get in the wrong car, yeah,
because it looked shiny and you got in, and now
(14:24):
you're driving so far you don't know where the hell
you even are and when you started and what you
wanted because you've convinced yourself, like you get you go
on the day with the wrong person, you think he's hot,
You have good sex, you get hooked in set. Twelve
months later, once the beer goggles are off, you're like,
fuck and I knew this.
Speaker 4 (14:40):
But like it's the great narcissist and like it's horrible,
And then you are You're like, how in the heck
did I get here? I mean, that's my entire first marriage, honestly, Yeah,
entire first marriage.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (14:52):
You know, I've just.
Speaker 4 (14:53):
Wrapped up in the looks and and the you know,
just fast pace of his life, and I got kind
of who dud And there was so many red flags
that I ignored because I was already attached. And of course
I had a lot of insecurities back then that I
don't have now. But it's just I tell people, like,
the best relationship you're going to have is the relationship
(15:13):
to yourself and secure people have this good relationship to
self where if they start dating somebody and they see
these red flags, they're like, okay, well, you know, I'm
okay facing detachment because I'm going to walk back into
this good relationship that I have with myself and I'm
okay with that. Whereas insecure people, especially with those with
attachment anxiety, they just don't know how to really be
(15:34):
happy in relationship to self, in their aloneness and a
life that they are in total control of and that
they have built. And that's why that journey to become
securely attached is so important, because it allows you to
detach when you see those types of red flags, like
if you did get whodued by the love bombing, you know,
and you start to realize that the mask is falling
(15:55):
off and they're verbally abusive or there they start breadcrumbing
you out of the blue, or you know, they lie
to you or you know, cheat on you or whatever.
Secure people are going to go that is really yuck,
Like I don't want anything more to do with that.
The pain that you're causing me. This isn't worth it.
Speaker 3 (16:12):
It doesn't even have to be that, though there could
be someone who's just so desperately love bombing, and you
become their entire identity. I've seen that a lot too,
Like I've had this where I'm a person's everything, and
like I have to fulfill all their needs because I'm
enough for them. But like, I didn't sign up to
(16:33):
be like the yin and the yang is every single
second of every day. I didn't want to be like
Batman and Robin, Like I want to have my own
life too.
Speaker 4 (16:41):
Sure, I mean the goal is definitely interdependence, and what
you're describing is more codependence.
Speaker 3 (16:45):
Right.
Speaker 4 (16:46):
Someone was like you, no, you kind of complete me,
and like I'm not okay if you're not okay, And
you know, I don't see myself in any other way
without you in the picture. Like I don't have my
own hobbies, I don't have things that I like to
do on my own. You know, we're not okay if
we spend one night apart for it, right right, right, right?
Like that that's not healthy. That's not interdependence. Interdependence is both.
(17:06):
You know, we have a good relationship, but we also
have independence in all life outside of each other that
is fruitful and that we enjoy and we're not just
completely consumed with each other and it's our identity that
you are my partner.
Speaker 2 (17:20):
So I totally agree with that.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Another thing is that I've found my people and honesty
and being able to say, like everybody doesn't have to
want to be in a relationship. Like there's this thing
with women and it seems like more traditional values right
to be like, oh, you're going to end up alone?
Speaker 1 (17:42):
Okay, then what happened? What do we like?
Speaker 3 (17:45):
I look at Jennifer Anison. She's on the cover of
Vanity I look at Jennifer Anison. She's on the cover
of Vanity Fair magazine. Now she's been in many relationships.
People talk about Jennifer Lopez like the Jennifer is Like,
let's pretend that people are so saying, oh, this is
why they're alone or they can't hold a man or whatever.
(18:05):
Like I don't know how these women feel, but if
they haven't been happy in their relationships and they haven't worked,
then being alone is better. If they're not being abused
in a relationship or unhappy in a relationship, or cheating
on or being cheated on, Like being alone is better.
Like for so long people have gotten away with just
(18:26):
safe saying these throwaway comments like that, like, oh, she's
gonna end up alone. Yeah, she might because she might
a want to be and I have found someone good
enough and see it doesn't want to give away her time,
her money, her vagina whatever.
Speaker 1 (18:41):
Like I am. I would like to meet someone. I
would like to.
Speaker 3 (18:48):
Not date in the way that I have where I
always settle in some way, get really close, I get
like eighty percent there, and I know I'm only eighty
percent there, and I don't go all the way. This
is the first time that I I've really held back
and held the horse back in the stall because I'm like, nope,
that's why it's been seven months. I'm not too picky.
(19:09):
It's none of that. I'm doing it or I'm not,
and I'm okay. I understand the consequences. I may not
find it and then I'll be alone. Some people are like, well,
I need to be supported, or I need to have sex,
or I need to live with someone, or I need
to marry some illegally, whatever their reasons are, and they
know the deal. But for me, I'm in my negotiation.
I'm getting what i want or I'm being alone. I
(19:31):
am my big girl. I know the consequences. I bet you,
Jennifer and Aison knows the consequences too, absolutely, I bet you.
Speaker 1 (19:37):
I bet you.
Speaker 3 (19:37):
Jennifer Lopez knows the consequences too. She has money, she
has kids. She may not want to be alone, but
she may be being alone because she's not gonna you know,
she doesn't want to be unhappy or whatever.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
But I hate that.
Speaker 4 (19:50):
I can even imine the additional pressure of being famous
and having your everybody scrutinizing you. You know, it's hard
enough to date, like just being a normal person, let
alone everybody commenting on it, everybody maybe publishing you know,
stories that aren't even really true about It's.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Not harder, though, I'll tell you why it's not harder.
It's not.
Speaker 3 (20:11):
It's a different, Okay, being in a cul de sac
in a small town and being alone and your whole
town is divided and you didn't get the divorced people,
or the husband makes the money and belongs to the club,
and you don't like that is sounds way more. It's
more like the Gilded Age the show right now, where
like your entire world is small and everyone knows, like
(20:33):
for us, we get to hide behind being famous and
doing amazing things, and we chose a career and all
that stuff.
Speaker 1 (20:41):
I'm not saying it's good. It's scrutinized, but it's not worse.
It's just different.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
That's interesting, that's really interesting.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
I guess that just shows that, you know, the whole
process is hard, no matter where you're from or what
you're doing with your life, because relationships are difficult.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
I mean, they are not They're not easy.
Speaker 4 (20:58):
They require a lot of work, and like I said,
it just it just goes to show that, you know,
when you really do become secure, you're not willing to settle.
You're just not willing to settle. You're not willing to
make these, you know, giant compromises in your life just
to have somebody around.
Speaker 3 (21:14):
No and even me having to give an explanation or
if Jennifer Anderson gives an explanation an article or whatever
the truth is, they're like, yeah, no kidding, Like what
do you think this is like a secret club that
no one realizes. We don't want to we don't want
we don't want a man. We're not bitter, we're not ugly,
we're not poor, and we have people that want to
be with us.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
We don't want it. I don't want it. I had
a woman that I know.
Speaker 3 (21:34):
Who's attractive and smart and has some money, like nothing crazy,
but like as attractive as any other person and smart
and interesting, and she was like, I don't want to even.
Speaker 1 (21:43):
Fucking messing with my piece. I've been through it. I
don't want it, like she doesn't want it.
Speaker 3 (21:48):
Like a certain age, and then a lot of women
are like, oh, that's called menopause, which is funny too,
like and that doesn't mean you're defective either. You just
may be like no, cause there is a thing that
happens at a certain age where forgetting your by you're
just like, I don't really care. I don't care if
people think I just want to laugh. I want to
be with my kids. I want to be with my cats,
I want to be with my dogs.
Speaker 1 (22:07):
I want to be alone.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
I want to take a walk, I want to take
a bath. I want to use my vibrator. I want
to eat bombonds. I want to do what I will.
Speaker 1 (22:13):
I don't men are fucking annoying, like and irritating.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
I do. I get it.
Speaker 4 (22:19):
It's one of those people like the pendulum can swing
too far either way, like if you have to have
them or you're just like, no, I'm never open to
the possibility ever again in my entire life, no matter.
If it falls in my lap, then you know, then
I think you might there might be some avoidance. But
when you're just like, Okay, yeah it sums, then it's
and it's right and it's a good fit and it
falls into place for me, then then so be it.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
But if it doesn't, but.
Speaker 1 (22:42):
You let's go back.
Speaker 3 (22:42):
You said there could be some avoidance. But the difference
is that's not hurting anybody else. It's a one man band, right,
You're right exactly.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
So it's an avoidant maybe. You know.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
For me, one of the reasons I want to be
in relationship is for my daughter. I want that unit,
I want that family, I want that tradition. I want
that for her. She's not crying or craving it. She's
an amazing life. It's something that I would like for her,
and I think it would be enhance her life. But
she is a wonderful life. But like, it's not what
you're So if you have a situation where you really
with like a partner for your kid, like a man
(23:28):
for your son, or some tradition, that's maybe the avoidance
could be hurting someone, but like, yeah, most part, it's
not really like it's really your own right choosing.
Speaker 4 (23:38):
Yeah, it's when people that are really avoidant but that
they don't know that they're avoidant, and then they go
and they try to have these really intimate relationships and
a lot of dismissive avoidance actually do love bomb in
the beginning, like that's the only time that they feel
safe enough to connect. So they show up as this
person that's extremely interested and extremely you know, affectionate and attentive,
(23:58):
and then they rope people in and they do tend
to attract people who have more attachment anxiety, and then
they just flip that switch and they go into their
avoidance and they deactivate and they pull away, and it's
so painful for the person on the other end because
it's just like doctor Juckell and mister Hyde, like you
came in as one person and then just like in
(24:19):
no time, you became someone I don't even recognize, who
is just this distant kind of ghost. And that's when
it's hurtful. But it's totally fine to be like, you
know what, I don't want it right now, so I'm
gonna I'm not going to pursue something that I don't
want and then you end up hurting that person that's
not good, or you end up coming into a crossroads
where you saw that there was this incompatibility that had
(24:39):
always been there, but now you actually really have to
face it because it got real and now there's attachment
and there's feelings involved, and it becomes this huge deal.
So it's yeah, being alone is not hurting anybody. It's
not hurting anything.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
Now, once you realize that you've been in a relationship
with dismissive avoidant, you detach and then they come and
play their games and you really just don't care. That's
been my experience. Like on once you've assigned the animal,
like once you realize like it's like a black cat
(25:12):
or it's a scorpion or whatever, like you're like, oh,
it's so clear, and you definitely don't have the same
unless you're just like an absolutely addictive person and then
you have your own issues like yourself.
Speaker 1 (25:22):
Savage.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
A lot of those people.
Speaker 4 (25:24):
I see a lot of those anxious people that are
with the dismissive avoidance, and a lot of them, you know,
they don't know what they don't know, so they're they're
married to these men.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
Wow, that's scary.
Speaker 4 (25:34):
You've been like starved for any kind of affection or
emotion from their partner for like two decades, and they
have kids, and they have finances and maybe a lot
of these women they don't have their own money.
Speaker 2 (25:48):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
One of the things my mom, and I'm so grateful
she did this. She sat me down one day when
I think I was like seventeen, and she was like, listen,
She's like, you're going to college next year. I don't
know if you'll meet somebody. I don't know when you'll
find the guy that you want to meet. But I'm
going to tell you one thing, and this is the
only piece of relationship advice I can really give. You
have your own money, Like whatever you do, oh god God,
(26:11):
have your own money, because you do not want to
end up with someone who is horrible to you and
then you're financially dependent upon them, and that is another
means of control. And that is exactly what happened in
my marriage. I needed to get out, and thank god
I had a really good job.
Speaker 3 (26:27):
What happens if you have to move to take care
of your parents and your husband changes his mind or
he has a nervous breakdown, like be smart. It could
be anything you want, but not at the cost of
having no freedom.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Yeah know, the risks is what I would say. I
would be like, really know the risks because everybody goes
into marriage thinking, like nobody goes in and they're like,
you know what, I think I'm probably gonna end up
divorced with this marriage. Like nobody does that. Everybody thinks,
you know, this is the one, We're gonna make it.
You know, we can work through anything. But the thing
of it is is people change. Like there's actually a
(26:59):
psychological theory about how we believe we are the person
that we are now is who are always going to
be And that's not true. Like they've actually done studies
and show just how dramatically people change over the decades.
And so you're not going to be the person in
ten years that you are right now. I mean, maybe
there are some core things about you, but the kind
of music you listen to, or what you like, or
(27:20):
your routines or your habits or you might get into
different hobbies. There are lots of things that are going
to change about you over the course of your lifespan
and you just can't count on someone else's behavior always
being what it is right now, like someone might but
I and then they're not.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
But I think that young girls all would never believe
not it's not going to happen to me. I don't
think that people would really hear that and digest that
that are young. Only people our age and of institutional
knowledge believe that.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
I think someone young can digest.
Speaker 3 (27:51):
Somebody gets sick, somebody, you know, somebody's diagnosed with you know,
anxiety or depression or is byle or something like something
like drastic that could happen. Somebody gets in an accident,
somebody is a professional or an athlete and they get hurt,
Like what would actually happen if if the situations change?
Speaker 2 (28:13):
Yeah, anyway, worst stories I've seen and.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so anyway, I don't even know.
Speaker 3 (28:18):
It's just no the risks, don't take the risks, don't
take the risks, have a side, hustle, whatever it is.
Speaker 4 (28:23):
I mean, I'm so glad my mom told me that
and like burned it into my brain. And I mean
my parents did not have a good marriage, but I
mean she did, you know, instill that in me, And
it was a lifesaver. It was the reason I could
get out from something that was really, really bad.
Speaker 3 (28:39):
And then the last thing is kind of related to
what we were saying before. I was talking about being
too pick you're too picky for who for you?
Speaker 1 (28:49):
For what? Like?
Speaker 3 (28:50):
Am I gonna go to a restaurant and I'm too bad?
I want to eat what I want to eat. I'd
rather not eat than eat something bad. So isn't it
my body my choice? Too picky?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
I don't even understand what that means. I don't know. Okay,
picky thing. I think that's knowing what you want.
Speaker 4 (29:04):
And you know, you posted this this post and you're like,
I have seen people like have great fashion and then
like move up and be on these magazines. And she's like,
I could have had, you know, be styled any way
I want. And you show this bathing suit that was
like vac mode, like that basing bathing suit. Oh yeah,
that is so freaking authentic and just embodying your authenticity
(29:28):
of like I am who I am, I know what
I want.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
I'm not going to settle for anything less.
Speaker 4 (29:32):
I don't give a crap if anybody doesn't like my
bathing suit, because I love my bathing suit, Like I
love this, I love this sparkly jacket. I love whatever
it is. Right, I'm not just going to just bend
the knee to whatever society thinks that I should want
or like. And I think the same thing applies to relationships,
Like you don't have to bend the knee and just
you know, date some guy just so you can be
(29:53):
seen dating or just so that you seem like you're,
you know, a good catch. No, you're just like I
know who I am and I don't need to prove
it to anybody. If the right thing comes my way, okay,
but but if not, I'm not just going to be
totally I'm going to go on the state just so
I can I can feel like worthy, right or flex
to whoever's watching.
Speaker 3 (30:12):
Yeah, she's referring to this cheesy bathing suit that has
smiley faced and rainbow and puffy letters. And it was
so stupid, but like I was so attracted to it
because it just reminds me of my childhood and growing
up in Florida. And it was totally cheesy, but like
I have a cheesy side.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
I like it.
Speaker 3 (30:27):
Like I'm aware that I'm not going to like go
to the met Gala because of it, but like, I
don't give a shit.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
I love the bathing suit the same way.
Speaker 3 (30:34):
That like people are like, wait, you're really rich, what
are you doing on jet Blue? What do you mean
when I'm doing jet Blue? I'm doing what I want
to do. I'm doing It's the airport's forty minutes from
my house.
Speaker 1 (30:42):
I'm doing. My daughter and I are there.
Speaker 3 (30:44):
I'm not spending fifty thousand dollars and having two pilots
and a giant plane and all this gasoline in this waste,
even though I can, I'm not going to do that.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
I don't want to alone.
Speaker 2 (30:54):
I love that your nervous system is probably very healthy.
Speaker 4 (30:58):
Yeah, the times it was inauthenticity, like not being who
you are and caring so much about what everybody thinks.
It's so disregulating. It's so disregulating, and I can only imagine.
There are so many people, not famous people definitely, but
famous people that they're oh of that, yes, you know
(31:20):
who they feel like they have to be.
Speaker 3 (31:21):
Oh my god, you have to watch Gilded Age. If
you haven't, you need to watch it. It's on my list.
I'm obsessed. And it's all about literally nothing matters if
no one else saw it. The society determines everything. It's horrendous. Yeah,
it's really crazy, so awesome. All right, well this was amazing.
I love having your own. I could talk forever and
(31:42):
ever and ever.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (32:02):
Does you want to walk to the utterm
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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