Listen Again: Billy McFarland

Because SOMEONE is back in the news!

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hi, how are you good?

Speaker 2 (00:14):
How's it gone?

Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's going?

Speaker 2 (00:16):
Well?

Speaker 1 (00:16):
Do you mind if I asked how old you are?

Speaker 2 (00:18):
Thirty two?

Speaker 1 (00:19):
You're thirty two? Okay, So.

Speaker 3 (00:22):
People, I wondered if people that are listening in my
fans will be like, wait, why would you have that
guy on? You know, like I'm about female empowerment and
a lot of women listen and moms, and you know,
I have a responsibility to them. And I was thinking
as I was walking that you have an intriguing story,
even if it's a cautionary tale for someone who could

(00:44):
end up being smarter by realizing some of the things
that you were accused of or you know. Also, I
believe in like letting someone come here and tell their
story and not like setting up a trap like I've
been on shows where I walk in and they act
like they're excited to have me, and then I come
on and then they're like, just like it's a booby
trap and it's just to make me look like, look,
you know, bad, And it's just not either of those things.

Speaker 1 (01:05):
You're a guest.

Speaker 3 (01:05):
I respect that, but I want you to be really
honest and I want us to really get into this
because I think it's an interesting story.

Speaker 1 (01:11):
So are you cool with that?

Speaker 2 (01:13):
Yeah? Love, how straight to the point you are. Thanks
for having me, So let's have some fun and see
what we can do.

Speaker 1 (01:18):
Okay. So you're thirty two, are you close with your parents?

Speaker 2 (01:22):
Kind of grew up in New Jersey outside the city,
but lived in New York since I was eighteen, except
for my four year jail vacation.

Speaker 1 (01:29):
So you had a jail vacation. Where was that all over?

Speaker 2 (01:33):
I kept getting in trouble, but mostly outside of Detroit, Michigan,
so a little bit of ways away from New York.

Speaker 1 (01:38):
So were you a kid that was always getting in trouble?

Speaker 3 (01:41):
Like at school we always sort of like getting disciplined
and sent to the principal.

Speaker 2 (01:45):
Always an entrepreneur. I started my first business in seventh
grade and had three full time employees and got in
trouble when one of them sent me an invitation for
his wedding, and my parents like, why is this grown man?
Because see him get married?

Speaker 3 (01:58):
So I think, go, oh wow, okay, And were you
did you come from a wealthy family.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
Like middle middle upper class like New Jersey suburbs, So.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
Again you didn't want for anything, but like you weren't rich, right,
Your parents, parents weren't driving ferraris.

Speaker 2 (02:12):
Yeah, it wasn't crazy, got it?

Speaker 1 (02:14):
Okay? But you went on vacations. You had a decent,
normal child for sure.

Speaker 2 (02:17):
Yeah. So try to obviously push the boundaries a little
bit myself.

Speaker 1 (02:20):
Past that, right? And so where did you go to
Did you go to college?

Speaker 2 (02:23):
I went to a school called Bucknell for almost one year.
During my freshman year of college, I became one of
the youngest people to raise venture capital. So left college
to embark in that tech venture journey and moved to
New York trying to make that happen.

Speaker 3 (02:39):
You were you you knew what VC was? In college?
You were reading about this stuff. How did you know
about all this stuff?

Speaker 2 (02:45):
There was an alumni day and someone told me the
word venture capital. And I recently found my notebook from
that day, right right, venture capital question mark. So started
researching it and trying to figure out what it was
and trying to understand who these people were that would
back eighteen years like me to kind of give us
a chance to build her own business on a much
larger scale than I was doing for my bedroom as

(03:05):
a kid.

Speaker 3 (03:07):
It's interesting, and we'll get into it. But like I
think about I remember being at a party at Jordan
Balfar's house in the Hampton's years ago, and now he's
like famous going out and talking, which to me is
like I'm mixed about it, because he is smart and
he probably could have made money doing anything. But now
it's this person who's a criminal who's out there talking
and like speaking and getting you know, news events, I

(03:28):
mean news shows. And so I think about the fact
that it sounds like you were smart, you were motivated,
You're an entrepreneur. You could have like gone one way,
and it sounds like you went another. So your parents
pay for your college for a year, and then you're out,
and then what are you doing then? And where are
you living and how are you supporting yourself?

Speaker 2 (03:45):
So raised money for this, tried to build a social
networking website for my college drum Room. Raised money for
this social networking app, and moved to New York City
and was eighteen nineteen. My friends were now sophomores in college,
kind of all alone, and I, you know, snuck into
a nightclub one night and saw you there. I thought
I was the coolest person in the world, and obviously

(04:05):
say hi, because it's the same time there. Yeah, nice club.
It was PhD when it first opened at the Dream Hotel.
So funny. How yeah, how fast?

Speaker 3 (04:16):
So I remember going there and I've only ever been
there once. That was the one up on the roof.

Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yeah. I think it was like New Year's Year and
you were with your then husband at the time, and
being a nineteen year old and all my friends were
in college, I thought I was the man, because that's
really weird.

Speaker 3 (04:28):
I feel like I almost remember that. It was like
towards the back and you were with your friends. There
was a group of guys there, and I looked good
that night. I know it sounds crazy, would really great.
I think I looked good that okay, So wow, okay.

Speaker 2 (04:42):
Crazy time flies to fast, right, it's insane life insurance.

Speaker 3 (04:46):
It's insane. You were nineteen, Did you have money? Were
you making money then?

Speaker 2 (04:50):
A little bit? You know, I had a small salary.
I was taking from my company and did a lot
of like you know, fun consulting work and was a hustler, right,
And I was nineteen with no responsibilities. So I think
it's easier when you're a kid with no family, no spouse,
no children to kind of have fun and make your
own path.

Speaker 3 (05:07):
But did you feel like you were finagling a little bit,
like in that time when you were coming up, like
moving a little too fast and loose, or you were
too young and stupid to know.

Speaker 2 (05:16):
I think I was just hanging out with people who
are much older than me. Most of my friends were
in school, and I started hanging out with my investors,
who are fifty sixty year old, and like they're, you know, peers.
So I was the young guy, almost like the toy
in the room where you know, they would take me
to the gallows with the dinners and I'd be this like,
you know, fun, weird nineteen year old who you know,
could provide conversations for ten minutes at the meals. So

(05:37):
it's kind of this weird world where I was almost
subducted from my childhood or my late childhood years and
put into like New York society because I was like
weird kid with a tech startup. So it was kind
of do you think you were hot shit?

Speaker 3 (05:50):
Did you think you were hot shit? Did you have
a fancy car? Were you like getting girls? Are you
getting bottles? Did you think you were like a hot stepper?

Speaker 2 (05:55):
I think it took a couple of years. I definitely
thought I was lame for a couple of years. And
by the time I was one or twenty two and
you know, had some revenue coming in and making some money,
I've definitely embraced that lifestyle that I probably wasn't ready for.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
And they all liked the marketing of making you this
young wonder kin, like you're just like small star athlete
that they all know, Like they like, this kid's going
to be a billionaire.

Speaker 1 (06:17):
Is that the type of thing that was going on
with the older guys.

Speaker 2 (06:19):
Yeah, And I felt like I had to grow into
it right and like in the beginning I was awkward
and didn't really know how to talk or hold conversation,
and a couple of years later, embrace that to try
to grow into it and like almost fill those shoes.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
Do you speak to any of those people now?

Speaker 2 (06:32):
Some yes? And I think, like skipping ahead, I went
to jail for wire fraud, which basically was lying to
a lot of these investors to raise money for the
fire festival.

Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yeah, so some of those guys with a fire festival investors.

Speaker 2 (06:45):
Correct, It's like that trust that I violated I think
was the worst part of all of it. I know
we'll get there, but that's what kind of hurts me
the most.

Speaker 1 (06:50):
Known and so you.

Speaker 3 (06:52):
Actually cared about these people. They were like and some
of them do speak to you, they have a soft
spot for you.

Speaker 2 (06:58):
Yeah, it's very like, very black and white. Some are like,
fuck off, and some are like, we totally get it
and what you did was wrong, but we'll give you
another chance. So it's it's kind of there's no one,
no one's in the middle. It's very it's very visceral.

Speaker 3 (07:10):
Okay, And I'm sure some of them were hurt. They
feel stupid, they're embarrassed for sure. What about your parents?
What would they think about you hanging with all these
older people, And did they think you were over your skis?
Did they say slow down? It's too much like the
way the movie Wall Street. Charlie Sheen's father, Martin, yeah
he's Martin Sheen, is like, it's too much fast and

(07:30):
loose over here.

Speaker 2 (07:31):
For sure, you're going too fast. You're taking too many risks,
whether that's adrenaline seeking, physical risks, or financial risks. And
they're like, go to college, you go to school. So
I think they just took the complete opposite approach where
it's like, hey, totally pull back, and obviously that kind
of propelled me to keep going faster and trying to
fight as much rope as I could.

Speaker 3 (07:50):
And in watching the documentary, which was years ago, I remember, like,
I'm you seemed like you thought you were the shit,
and you are seemed more humbled now, like you definitely
have had your ass handed to you for sure.

Speaker 2 (08:02):
Right, I don't know, never seen the docks. I think
it all just went so fast. The Fire Festival was
literally a four month period of announcing this trailer video
with the viral social campaign to the actual date of
the festival. So I definitely think it's fair to say
I was actually like the total asshole for those four months.
But in reality, it was like this whirlwind of this

(08:23):
craziness and such a period of time that defined my life. Right,
it's kind of wild that.

Speaker 1 (08:28):
It defines that's your identity now, right.

Speaker 2 (08:30):
I maybe four months as a twenty four year old,
which is crazy.

Speaker 3 (08:33):
So you were twenty four years old, and for those
of you who are too young to remember or live
under our rock, Fire Festival was from my perspective, was
I'm just going to talk about like from the outside
and something you were just seeing through social media, all
these famous people, the Kylie Jenners, the models, everyone going
to this island excited. It's the Fomo. It's the Tart

(08:55):
Dubai trip times ten million, It's Coachella, it's all that
Revolve festival. It's all that stuff of like douchey people
bragging Fomo better than like it's supposed to be aspirational,
look at my outfits, Like you know, we're so fabulous
and you're not.

Speaker 1 (09:11):
We're on a boat, we're rich.

Speaker 3 (09:12):
All that shit piled into one and I read the
stat today that it was more viral than Coachello, with
more impressions, and then you said, then it said, like
and there's no third is like way dropped down?

Speaker 2 (09:26):
Is that? What?

Speaker 1 (09:26):
Is that accurate?

Speaker 2 (09:27):
Yeah, It's been the most talked about festival in the
world since twenty sixteen and it's never happened, which is
kind of wild, right, Like literally the most talked about
music festival ever without it ever taking place.

Speaker 1 (09:37):
And you were partners with Ja Ruhl and it fucked
him up too.

Speaker 2 (09:40):
We were partners. Yes, I was the only one he
went to jail, So I think I was the only one.

Speaker 1 (09:45):
Yeah, but so how did you? But he was probably
scared he was going to jail.

Speaker 2 (09:49):
I don't know. I think he had gone to jail already,
so he knew what he had to do, I think
at that point.

Speaker 1 (09:55):
And were you close with him?

Speaker 2 (09:56):
H Yeah. We were very close friends for maybe three
or four year prior to Fire and Fire Festival and
always knew we'd work together in some capacity and that
was the that was the attempt.

Speaker 1 (10:06):
So how did you meet him?

Speaker 2 (10:08):
I had a company called Magnesis prior to Fire, and
I basically built a events company on top of your
credit card. So I bought this black strip of metal
from China and would copy people's like shitty Chase debit
cards onto this black hunk of metal and then built
different benefits you would get on top of the card.
And one of the benefits was a lot of these
small private concerts we did throughout New York and he

(10:31):
was one of the two dozen artists that we booked
for these concerts. Just kind of connected through that and
became friends.

Speaker 3 (10:35):
Meaning it was just like a branding vehicle. You were
like putting the blush in a better compact and adding
some marketing assets to is.

Speaker 2 (10:42):
That what you're saying exactly, And then we had twenty
five twenty five year olds running around New York with
these cards who loved it, and then booked a lot
of music artists a way just like kind of have
fun and get back to them.

Speaker 3 (10:52):
And why was it so criticized? Because I saw on
the dock that it was criticized as if like I
forgot exactly what the criticism was. But it was like
that there was some fraud there too. There was some
perception of fraud there too. There was the social media
network that you made. There's a perception that it was
just like something else, which to me, a lot of
things are like something else, So like, is that the
only problem that people had with that that was like

(11:13):
something else?

Speaker 2 (11:14):
I think it was amazing for three years, and then
I got distracted by this new shiny thing which is
Fire for four months, and then you know, once Fire collapsed,
it took it all down. We sold Magniss for basically
pennies after the Fire festival because I was the brand
and my ability to create these experiences were destroyed at
that point. But I think it was more about it.

Speaker 3 (11:34):
It was I'm saying, no, I'm saying, wasn't there something
before you said there was a social network? So someone
criticized that as being like something else. Was there any
other legal problem with that? Was there any investigation into
that social network? That just was whatever and it dissolved.
It wasn't exactly did that business in and of itself
have any taint to it?

Speaker 2 (11:50):
It was just the taint was me, and like you know,
I was ruined, right, and so if oh, that's Billy's product,
therefore it must be terrible. So I think that was
kind of right.

Speaker 3 (11:58):
But no one But so whatever they were digging up,
they were just digging up whatever they could on.

Speaker 2 (12:02):
Yeah, there was no criminal auity or like the legal
aspect of the business. It was a great business that
I didn't know how to see through because I got
distracted by like what's next in this bigger opportunity? And
that was my That was my fault and like my issue.

Speaker 3 (12:13):
But in order to believe you, I want to know
that you you you admit that there was criminal aspect
of Firefest completely.

Speaker 2 (12:19):
It was totally blocked by.

Speaker 3 (12:20):
Okay, so you're acknowledging because I mean you you deserved
to go to jail in your opinion, you acknowledge your
wrongdoing completely.

Speaker 2 (12:29):
I met a lot of very good people in jail,
but I didn't meet one person who deserve to be
there in some capacity. So I think everybody, like I
think it's very rare they're going to find a random
person and prosecute them. I think you have done something wrong,
and you make it over prosecuted or under prosecuted. But
I was certainly guilty and deserve.

Speaker 3 (12:44):
To go to jail zero fifty shades of how much
there's a disparity and someone belongs to be there for longer.

Speaker 1 (12:49):
It's not I got a longer stet.

Speaker 2 (12:50):
But okay, you did something wrong, you get there.

Speaker 3 (12:52):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, you were in the mix and something's wrong. Okay.
Do you feel that you were lucky with your sentence
or your sentence was longer, or was exactly what it

(13:13):
should be based on you know, other people, or what's
right or what you've heard read whatever.

Speaker 2 (13:18):
The answer literally changed by the day I started in
the jail in New York, where there are a lot
of other financial crime people, and there I felt like
my sentence was super long because I would meet guys
who had dollar figures or victim amounts that were ten
times mine who had less time. And then I got
in trouble in prison a couple of times and was
transferred further west, first to Ohio and then to Detroit,
where I met people who had, you know, a couple

(13:40):
of dollars and twenty year sentences, So I kind of
felt lucky. So I think it really depends on where
you are. But in the day, I think my six
year sentence was fair. That's probably right.

Speaker 1 (13:48):
Did you have terrifying experiences in there?

Speaker 2 (13:52):
I did ten months in solitary confinement, seven of it
which was for trying to do a podcast from the
prison payphone. So I think that really sucked. And like
the biggest takeaway from that is I'm not a conspiracy theorist,
but knowing that there was someone who had that power
to snap their fingers and literally put me into a
concrete box for seven months was wild.

Speaker 3 (14:12):
Wait a minute, you were in solitary confine? What you
said ten seven or ten ten months?

Speaker 2 (14:17):
Total? I did one seventh month stint just for the podcast, Like,
as punishment for that.

Speaker 1 (14:22):
What is solitary confinement? Like? Does it?

Speaker 2 (14:25):
Hell? It's bad? You're supposed to be able to go
outside for one hour? A day, but it was during COVID,
so ironically that was an excuse where I couldn't leave.
So I was literally in a cage for seven months,
and that was really really crazy.

Speaker 1 (14:38):
Wait a minute, you eat in there, you do everything
in there?

Speaker 2 (14:40):
You can you read that they put your food through
like a doggy tray. So there's no like contact with anybody.
And you're allowed to have two books a week, which
sounds like a lot, but when you have nothing else
to do, it's it's you know, you do that in
a day and a half or two days, even if
you're like an average reader. So a lot of push ups,
a lot of meditating, and a lot of longing for
relationships like you know, physical, emotional, just want to be

(15:03):
around people. I think it's the biggest thing you start
creating after a couple of weeks.

Speaker 1 (15:07):
Did it fuck with your head big time? Did it
mess you?

Speaker 3 (15:10):
Like? Are you very fucked up from being in solitary
confinement for that period of time like we see in
the movies?

Speaker 1 (15:15):
That sounds yeah.

Speaker 2 (15:16):
I think like nightmares literally maybe stopped two months ago,
so it took a few years afterwards to kind of
go away. And once again, I think the biggest fear
was knowing that like, oh wow, there was some prison
official who literally could say, okay, I want Billy. You
know in here for seven months and it happened, and
that was just crazy for me.

Speaker 1 (15:32):
Are you in therapy?

Speaker 2 (15:35):
I have been Yes.

Speaker 1 (15:36):
What did your.

Speaker 3 (15:37):
Parents, whether you have a good relationship with them or not.
You have some relationship with you siblings?

Speaker 2 (15:43):
Younger sister thirties, slives in the city.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Are you close with her?

Speaker 2 (15:47):
Not really? I think it's hard hard for her. She
was twenty one or twenty two when it all happens,
So I think, like you know, as a young woman
in New York, it's kind of tough when your brothers
it's me.

Speaker 1 (15:56):
At that point, she was in the demo.

Speaker 2 (15:57):
She was in that yeah, Target demo exactly.

Speaker 3 (16:00):
And what about your mom, Like, what was your mom
saying when you were going into solitary confinement?

Speaker 1 (16:06):
Was she hysterical?

Speaker 2 (16:07):
I think the hardest part for the family is not known,
at least when you're going through it, like you you
have real time updates, like it's you, it's happening. You
know what's happening every second when your family's not there,
like they might hear oh in the news or from
a letter like you're in solitary confinement, but what does
that mean? Like what's actually happening? So it's like not
knowing made them think the worst. I think that was
the most messed up part and hardest to kind of

(16:28):
come to terms with.

Speaker 1 (16:29):
So you traumatize your entire family.

Speaker 2 (16:31):
Like for yeah, it's terrible.

Speaker 3 (16:33):
Yeah, parents, sure have you cost them a lot of money.

Speaker 2 (16:39):
Some I think the emotional damage is probably the worst
part of it. Like you know, money can always be
solved in some capacity and like I will do that
through the rest of my life. But I think the
emotional damage to trust, like that's where really hurts the most.

Speaker 3 (16:52):
Are you spending the rest of your life trying to
repair the emotional trust to absolutely?

Speaker 2 (16:57):
I think like my dream is to be able to
go and shake the hands that I wronged and where
they're like okay, like we got paid back, but that's
one thing more importantly, like we can trust you now,
and not saying they're going to be investors or business
partners again, more of that like human level where hey,
like I trust you as a person. I think that's
kind of I crave that and that would make me
feel fulfilled.

Speaker 3 (17:15):
So why is someone from jail suing you for six
hundred thousand dollars.

Speaker 2 (17:20):
Yeah, So ironically, my crime was far from the worst
of people in prison, and as I was transferred to
higher level prisons and worse prisons, you know, I was
essentially it wasn't that bad day to day, but I
was a target for people with hainous crimes. So there
was someone who ended up being a child predator who
basically met me when I was first released to a

(17:41):
halfway house from jail, started showering me with gifts and
found out when I was still in that halfway house
that he was a child predator and basically severed ties
with him. And you know, that's that story. So it
was a hard transition from like leaving jail.

Speaker 3 (17:53):
Oh wait, what does it have to do with the
six hundred thousand I'm saying, why would someone sue you?
What was the six hundred thousand dollar claim about? And
where that Now?

Speaker 2 (18:01):
Yeah, he was trying to give me gifts.

Speaker 3 (18:02):
You admit that firefest was completely illegal and you did
criminals to hear you're saying you did not do anything.

Speaker 1 (18:07):
You're saying this is wrong.

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, someone like trying to pull me down a little
bit to bring themselves up, whether it's you know, fifteen
seconds of press or whatever it may be.

Speaker 1 (18:14):
Okay, Okay, that's hard.

Speaker 3 (18:16):
Yeah, Okay, I'm gonna choose to believe you because I'm
being accountable about some things.

Speaker 1 (18:19):
Like I'm trying to wade through this, but it's put
you're pretty clear.

Speaker 2 (18:22):
Okay.

Speaker 3 (18:23):
So you were in jail and you were still fucking around,
trying to make money, trying to do something like what
so what is that is that? Like you still hadn't
learned your lesson? Like what was that about? Like why
didn't you just like put your head down, I'm gonna
fucking pay attention, do what I'm told, listen, and get
the fuck out of here.

Speaker 2 (18:39):
Oh maybe I need you as my mom my mom
at that point, but it's like I didn't know how
to sit down and shut up basically, and like it
might not have broken the rules per se with the podcast,
but it was against like the theme with the rules, right,
The point of jail is to you're in time out.
It's not to just provide a different platform for you
to continue your business. And I didn't get that, and
it took time and it kept thinking, oh, it's like
it's on me. I can prove that I'm not as

(19:02):
bad as it might have been portrayed. But that was
beyond the point. Like the point was I was wrong,
I was guilty, and because of that it is now
time to you know, be quiet. So it took a
minute to get there.

Speaker 3 (19:12):
Ellen Degenerous once said to me, you will keep making
the mistake until you learn the lesson, like in relationships
and in your case, in your your antics and your shortcuts.
And Lauren Michaels once said to me, you have to
make an exit to make an entrance, meaning like it
wasn't even about me, he was talking about one of
the people on Saturday Night Live. But I take that
as like your day will come to be able to

(19:35):
like so sit down, shut up, and then like later.

Speaker 1 (19:38):
You know.

Speaker 3 (19:39):
I love that, not that it's not that it's going
to be good for you. I mean, it's not great
for you by any means, and you don't deserve it
to be. But I but I you know, I want
to talk through it, okay, So I love that.

Speaker 2 (19:49):
Ye, the day will come and it's like you have
to go through the punished medias there first before you
have that chance and I couldn't couldn't grasp that, So
I agree, right, awesome.

Speaker 3 (19:57):
You've thought about people who have done really bad things,
have you like looked into those more closer than others?

Speaker 2 (20:03):
Absolutely? And I think it's like it's yeah, it's it's
funny from my perspective to be like, you know, why
is he or she doing that? Or like, oh, that's
so amazing what they did do. So yeah, it's it's cool.

Speaker 1 (20:12):
To see who do you look at? Who are you
looking at?

Speaker 3 (20:13):
Thinking like they fucked up but like eventually were able
to like redeem themselves.

Speaker 1 (20:18):
Who are those people? Besides Michael Vick?

Speaker 2 (20:20):
I think Ian Schrager had a really cool comeback story
and obviously now is an incredible hotel brand and hotel line.
So someone who took it there able to be good
at find a good partner to kind of help them
and you know, provide parameters and be successful. That's pretty cool.

Speaker 3 (20:32):
You mean because he went to jail because what was
going on with Studio fifty four.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, and like came back and said, Okay, I'm great
at this like two or three things, and I need
help in these other areas and found a great partner
and you know, built a successful brand for himself.

Speaker 3 (20:44):
So interesting I would I had him on this podcast,
and I would never have thought of that because I
forgot to the point of marketing and branding.

Speaker 1 (20:51):
I forgot.

Speaker 3 (20:52):
And I know that story because I know I know
somebody who did all the lighting and the wiring for
Studio fifty four. Do you think that Ian Schrager's crimes
were on par with yours? Or like worse or better
or just similar? Is Jordan Belfoire the Wolf of All Street?
Is it on par the crimes? Is it similar?

Speaker 2 (21:12):
Yeah? I think my crime is worse and Ian triggers Uh. Yeah.
I think I probably caused more emotional damage than he
did to people, so I think, like that's worse.

Speaker 3 (21:21):
Oh okay, his is like just general like their taste skimming,
but it's not like hurting direct people.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Yes, I think what I did is worse than him,
but he's still, you know, found a way where someone
like you would even forget because he's become you know,
respectful person, a member of society. So I think that's
that's motivating.

Speaker 1 (21:36):
But about Jordan, I don't know.

Speaker 2 (21:40):
I don't know him personally, so I think this story
is it's hard to understand like what's real and what
isn't real? Right, because everything is just sensationalized so much.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
So, and marketing has been a movie and all that stuff.

Speaker 2 (21:49):
Yes, so I don't really know like who he heard
or didn't hurt and maybe it's bad, maybe it's not
so bad. It's it's kind of hard to hard to
say without knowing the details.

Speaker 1 (21:56):
Got it?

Speaker 3 (21:56):
Okay, So let's get into firefest.

Speaker 1 (22:10):
All right. So you're a hotshot.

Speaker 3 (22:12):
You've got this credit card, you've got this like buzz,
and you're running around the city going to clubs. And
I think and that you had a girlfriend that was
on the road with you, right like doing this.

Speaker 1 (22:21):
Now yeah a little bit, Yeah, to speak to her anymore?

Speaker 2 (22:25):
Have a new one? Now? Who I met after fire?

Speaker 1 (22:27):
But you met a girl after fire before prison?

Speaker 2 (22:30):
Correct? Yes?

Speaker 1 (22:31):
And she stayed with you.

Speaker 2 (22:33):
For some time. We broke up for a little bit
and you know, an how we're back together. So she
she's tough?

Speaker 1 (22:38):
Interesting does she? Does she trust you?

Speaker 2 (22:42):
I hope? So? So I think she she was not
there for the for the fun time, So that was
kind of ironic, right, like didn't get to experience the
quick rise.

Speaker 1 (22:50):
She's only been there for the ship, only.

Speaker 2 (22:52):
Only been there for the ship, so I think I
owe it to make things work.

Speaker 1 (22:56):
What kind of person is she?

Speaker 2 (22:57):
Like?

Speaker 1 (22:57):
What is she like? Conservative is she like? What is
she like? What does she do for a living in marketing?

Speaker 3 (23:01):
I don't have to like get into her fully, but
I'm just curious what kind of woman you're in a
relationship with?

Speaker 2 (23:06):
Super like strong willed, strong personality. Yeah, she's far and
moved here when she was fifteen or sixteen, which is
kind of like tough.

Speaker 1 (23:13):
And what was her family? Said? You have you met
a family?

Speaker 2 (23:15):
I have. It's it's weird because I think people who
kind of met me after didn't didn't get to experience
like the good and the bad that came with the
chaos of fire and Fire Festival. So I think to them,
it's like here's a character, and like here's like you know,
current Billy for all of us good and all is bad.
So I think for them it's kind of hard to

(23:35):
put it all together and like understand what's what?

Speaker 1 (23:38):
Okay?

Speaker 3 (23:38):
So you are doing this credit card, you're a hot shot,
you have a girlfriend, walk me through what goes on?
So now you go to some of these investors that
you were doing VC with and you've talken a jar rule.
You brought it, you packaged it with jar roles. So
people wanted to invest because you had him already right
like stuff like that.

Speaker 2 (23:56):
Yes, like it was kind of crazy. We had this
townhouse in the West Village where all of our cardholders
had come. It was almost like a so house, you know,
twelve years ago for young people in Manhattan. And this
guy walked in who was a programmer at Google and
a self taught pilot, and he said, I just bought
a plane. I want a flyabillity to the Bahamas. So
you know, of course we said, he asked one of

(24:16):
this guy's plane. We ran out of gas and landed
on this remote island in this small chain of the Bahamas,
and turned out the island had crazy history as like
a Blackbeard and a Pablo Escobars, like you know, teams,
drug running island and whatever. Like Now we were there
and I just totally fell in love with this place.
I fell in love with the ocean. I fell in
love with literally the four people who actually lived there.

(24:37):
And I kept bringing my friends and customers and music
talent all to this island, and these trips kept growing
and growing.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Who was paying for the trips to go to the island.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Initially we were selling spots to our Magnesis cardholders, so
they would basically pay a fee and we'd take them
from Teterborough and these like small crappy nineteen sixties planes
and fly to the island for the weekend.

Speaker 1 (24:57):
Where would they stay.

Speaker 2 (24:58):
We would there were a couple of small houses or
villas there. We would get a boat and like we
kind of like it started with four people and they
became two hundred people trips. And on one of these trips,
I had a childhood friend who said, you should totally
do a music festival here for all of your Magnieis cardholders.

Speaker 1 (25:13):
So what does that friend say? Now?

Speaker 2 (25:16):
I know right, Like it's funny because like twenty people
have since said, oh, it's my idea. But it was like, really,
this guy who wasn't involved at all, who had the
idea for fire and Fire festival.

Speaker 1 (25:23):
And is he still your friend?

Speaker 2 (25:25):
Haven't spoken to him? Actually no, okay, but that's where
it started.

Speaker 3 (25:29):
So are you are you ripping these two hundred people
off while this is happening or no, this is just normal,
like you're making some money.

Speaker 2 (25:36):
No, these trips are great and like they're awesome, and
what started with your average twenty two year old became
big music artists, comedians, some of the biggest models in
the world. And we started filming some of these trips
and bits.

Speaker 1 (25:48):
He was paying for this. Your business is paying for you.

Speaker 3 (25:50):
Making so much money that you're just like you're spending
this or who's paying for all this stuff?

Speaker 2 (25:54):
Initially the customers are paying for it themselves.

Speaker 1 (25:56):
Then eventually he was paying for the filming it.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
Now our business are going to pay for the trips
are getting big, we have brand sponsors, we're making more money,
Like you know, things are going well now that business
is paying for it. At that point where it's like,
all right, let's do a festival. Now it's time to
raise some money. Like we've proved we can have you know,
three or four days where you escape reality in New
York City, you're diving for your own fish or cooking
in the beach, and all these people who might not
spend time together at home are now becoming great friends

(26:21):
or they're starting companies together. And wanted to kind of
like formulate and package these experiences and sell it as
a music festival.

Speaker 1 (26:29):
You raise how much money with how many people.

Speaker 2 (26:32):
Ended up raising around like twenty seven or twenty eight
million for Fire Festival over this four month period from
maybe three or four dozen investors, So to.

Speaker 3 (26:41):
Match the number, that's the number of what you owe
back is twenty seven million plus seven million in taxes,
So you right correct, exactly thirty four million in the hole.
And all these people invested, And what went sideways? And
how fast did it go sideways? And how much did
you know? And what we trying to do? And how
did you get yourself in deeper? And how did you

(27:02):
get yourself to jail? Like what now goes on?

Speaker 1 (27:04):
So you're there? What goes on?

Speaker 2 (27:06):
There are two big issues. So the first thing is
that even if Fire Festival was perfect, it was as
luxurious adventurous as we advertised, I still would have gone
to jail because I lied to the investors to try
to get more money. Like so that was the crime.

Speaker 3 (27:19):
The crime was like a mini made off crime, Like
you're saying, let me get more so I can, and
then I'm going to end up paying them back. You
thought you had you could go, you could handle it.

Speaker 2 (27:26):
Yeah, I just I lied and said, hey, we are
doing better than we are. I have more money than
I actually have, or the company is more money than
it actually has, and just like gave very basic, almost
like childlike exaggerations to help raise money, which actually didn't
hurt me. But it's a separate story. And then the
second part was, what.

Speaker 3 (27:43):
Do you mean that's a separate start? What do you
mean say that go through that, let's just do it.

Speaker 2 (27:47):
I think people were investing in me initially because they
had worked with me for five or six years. They've
seen all the little failures, they had seen some of
the little wins, and they believe that if Fire was
done right, it would have been bigger than the previous acts,
which shit right, we all agree with. So they were
investing because of that, and almost despite my exaggerations for

(28:08):
how well Fire was doing. I think when it got
to a certain point where we needed even more money,
I probably scared away people who would have actually invested
more because it was too good to be true. So ironically,
the lying probably pushed away a lot more capital and
probably people who could have helped make it a reality,
because like it was obvious.

Speaker 1 (28:25):
You're saying, you could have said them in a little
bit of trouble.

Speaker 3 (28:28):
We can do this, but this is what's going on,
and let me get some advisors and crowdsource some information
so you can help me get I'm fucked right now
and I need help.

Speaker 2 (28:36):
I was so scared to show kings in the Armor,
where in the reality was like, these people already trusted me.
I'd built that trust.

Speaker 1 (28:41):
It's almost endearing for people to hear what's wrong. So
I was part. I was one of the people to
start the model.

Speaker 3 (28:47):
Now I was the person to really start the model
for monetizing reality television, like before the Kardashians, and we
had the same agent who ended up using my model.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
For them later.

Speaker 3 (28:58):
Like in other words, I was util the Housewives to
promote Skinny Girl, and I was using this vehicle that
no one else was using in that way. They were
using it to show how rich they were and buying diamonds,
and I was using it because I.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
Was poor as this vehicle.

Speaker 3 (29:12):
So this agent then ended up bringing this model over
to the Kardashians, who were bigger, and they weren't bigger
yet but they were still bigger, and like was doing
deals through the shows for them, a serious deal that
ended up failing. Like he kind of used a quick
trim he put into their show. He was using my model.
But one of the things I experienced, and we were
great and we made money together, is that he would

(29:32):
always like act like he knew everything. And I was
freaked out by that because a couple of times we
got really jammed up in things that I ended up
having to get us out of. Like it was a
situation where I did a brand deal with a partner
in Skinny Girl for another category and I wasn't allowed
to use that category, meaning he could have said I'm
suing you because you're not allowed to use this this

(29:54):
in genes let's say, or I was shapewear. But what
I did was went to the original Skinny Girl partner
and said, listen, I have to go to you to
ask my lit I have to ask my liquor partner
you if I can use the intellectual property in these
other categories. But the agent did a deal with them
already and made a mistake because he didn't know that.
So I said, I'll figure it out, and I went

(30:15):
to the partner and asked his permission, and he didn't
love it, but he said no problem, Like kind of
like I'll do this for you, and I probably offered
to do something for him. So I'm sorry for that
long story, but it just is like, if you get
entangled and you're doing something that you're over your skis,
you have to go come, you have to come correct.
So that's what I think you're talking about as a
business takeaway for people.

Speaker 2 (30:36):
And most smart people understand that nothing is going to
be perfect. So if you're saying everything is perfect, and
they'd been there ten times themselves, they're like, this is bullshit, right,
it's impossible things are going this well, and they think
it scared.

Speaker 3 (30:46):
Them away, so they started getting nervous. They're now in
the pyramid scheme, they're not at the top, they don't
know if they're getting outetting their money, and they're all
freaking up, but they don't want to give more because
they're freaking out.

Speaker 2 (30:56):
Yeah, so they would they would give more to try
to make it work. I think ultimately we were all
aligned that making the festival itself work was the best
chance at a financial win, at a social win, at
a business win. So we legitimately tried, literally up until
the last second, to make Fire Festival happen. Then the
other side of The problem was just my inability to
build a city in the middle of nowhere in four months.

(31:19):
It is having no like real estate development experience to
that scale.

Speaker 3 (31:22):
So yeah, before you got there, you knew the shit
was going sideways before this, like how long before I
didn't know.

Speaker 2 (31:30):
After the first one thousand guests arrived, I had basically
my number two come up to me and say, three
people got killed. This wasn't true at all. Yeah, no
one was even, no one was slightly hurt. Like, no,
there was zero physical issues. But I don't know if
he did that on purpose or if he's telling the truth,
if he's lying, But like that kind of snapped me
out of it, like, oh shit, we are not ready.
And we literally turned like seven to thirty sevens around

(31:51):
in the air and got everybody off the island. But
up until that last second of a thousand guests actually arriving,
I thought that, you know, fire Festival one was going
to happen, And.

Speaker 3 (32:01):
So where's the true crime, Like we saw the cheese sandwich,
We've seen the people freaking out.

Speaker 1 (32:05):
There was it was terrible conditions. We know the story.
I mean many people.

Speaker 3 (32:08):
If you don't know the story, it was this shit
show that never happened with a piece of cheese that
went viral in a styrofoam box and people freaking out
and crying, but sort of also like a camaraderie between
them and like it being the worst disaster and getting
attention for it. But it was a disaster. So where
was the true crime? You owe twenty seven million dollars
to how many people?

Speaker 2 (32:28):
So I owed twenty seven million dollars to the three
dozen or so investors. So the crime were simply the
people who invested money into fire festival.

Speaker 3 (32:38):
Because you kept because you told them, you lied to
them that it was going well, and got more money.

Speaker 1 (32:45):
Like what specifically is the crime? Wire fraud? What was
the crime?

Speaker 2 (32:49):
So like example, Okay, you know this sponsor is going
to pay US five million, but in reality the sponsor
is only paying us a million, So like lies like
that that tried to entice them to make the deal
look better than.

Speaker 1 (32:59):
Actually was, to get more money.

Speaker 2 (33:02):
Do you get more money? Exactly? The actual the festival
itself wasn't the crime. I think most people get that wrong,
Like the people who bought tickets whatever, Like we legitimately
tried to make that happen. So the festival didn't matter
how it turned out, how good or how bad it was.
I committed the same crime and would have gone to
jail for the same period of time even if it
was the best festival of all time.

Speaker 1 (33:21):
So, okay, so is your plan? So how do you
make money?

Speaker 2 (33:26):
Now?

Speaker 1 (33:26):
Do you have any money? How much money?

Speaker 2 (33:28):
Doing all right? Doing a lot of marketing, consulting work,
so realizing like what I suck at and what I'm
good at. So helping a lot of venture capital back
startups for their marketing.

Speaker 1 (33:36):
Who's hiring you? Like? What person is hiring you? Like?

Speaker 3 (33:40):
How do you because you already know them, because they're
intrigued by the story, because they think you're smart and
you did stupid things, like who's you know? You seem
sound to me, you seem culpable, you seem accountable.

Speaker 1 (33:52):
I'm surprised.

Speaker 3 (33:52):
I thought you were going to come on here and
be like trying to convince me of all the ways
it wasn't your fault.

Speaker 1 (33:56):
I'm surprised. I'm glad I had you on. I have
you on.

Speaker 2 (34:00):
Thank you?

Speaker 3 (34:00):
Who's hiring you? And what are they paying you? Are
they paying you at a massive discount? Like?

Speaker 1 (34:04):
How is this working.

Speaker 2 (34:06):
Ironically, you know, probably doing pretty well income wise compared
to where he was before. But the you know, the
debts owed are so high, so such a large. I
joke that I have like the world's worst agent, like
in restitution. Right, no matter what I make, the agent
gets paid first, and they take a pretty significant piece
off the top. So do marketing work. And actually a
lot of it is former investors of mine who have

(34:26):
invested in let's say thirty tech companies, right, they might
recommend to some of their investments like this guy's good
at marketing and he's bad at this, so if you
can kind of keep him in this box, he's great.

Speaker 1 (34:35):
And that makes sense.

Speaker 3 (34:36):
So you are actually people are working with you again
that have worked with you in the past, anyone that
invested with you, not.

Speaker 2 (34:43):
Directly, but the companies they've invested in have hired me.
So they might call, like the founder of a company
they invested in, say hey, like, I know you guys
are having this marketing problem. I think you know, Billy
can help with this issue, but like, don't let him
do this. We'll let him do that.

Speaker 1 (34:55):
So how much money are you making a year of approximately?
Can you say? Close range is it six figures? Is
it seven figures?

Speaker 2 (35:02):
Yeah? In that range? Okay, okay, I mean it's not amazing,
but enough.

Speaker 3 (35:07):
But do you go out to a restaurant, you're eating
at a sushi restaurant, You're wearing decent clothes, and people
are looking at you like what fuck? These people lost
their money and you're in a restaurant, Like, how.

Speaker 1 (35:16):
Do you live your life?

Speaker 3 (35:17):
If you go on a vacation, if you step but
on an airplane, you're doing something wrong? Because so how
does how do you live? But yet you are going
to hopefully pay these people back? How do you live
your everyday life? If you belong to a gym? How
did you pay for the gym membership?

Speaker 2 (35:28):
Like?

Speaker 1 (35:28):
How do you operate? What kind of car do you drive?

Speaker 2 (35:30):
Like?

Speaker 1 (35:30):
How do you justify all that?

Speaker 2 (35:32):
Yeah? So I think I'm really good at paying restitution.
So every month, like literally every month, I write a
check back to the investors that I owe, and I'm
super transparent about like what I made that month. So
I'm making this up. Let's say, man, hundred dollars last month,
Like all right, here's how I made it, and you know,
here's where it went, and here's how much you guys.

Speaker 1 (35:48):
You're just giving them like a newsletter.

Speaker 2 (35:50):
It's almost like almost like a newsletter. So it is
what it is, Right if I make ten million dollars
or ten thousand dollars, like here's how much they made
and I just disclose it.

Speaker 3 (35:57):
So are you doing this because you're doing this or
because you would lead required to do it.

Speaker 2 (36:01):
I'm legally required to pay a certain percentage, but I'm
trying to go above and beyond that and do more.
So like, for example, we are doing Fire Festival Too again,
and by we, there is a third party festival company
who's in charge and not me, who's actually doing Fire Too,
and they're going to give because.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
I think it's such a viable brand.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
Yeah, like if like people will come to Fire Festival
too just to see what happens, like to be part
of the cultural moment, right exactly if they can do
it and it's not me, and I can like talk
some shit and do some marketing and like maybe do
something wild like at the event and like do like
abillity fire thing. That's cool. But they're actually in charge
and they're giving a percentage of their business back to restitution.

(36:40):
And that's like in addition to whatever I personally have
to pay. So trying to find ways like that that
are a viable way.

Speaker 1 (36:45):
To you didn't have to do that.

Speaker 3 (36:46):
In other words, you own who owns the intellectual property
for fires? I do onc of it.

Speaker 2 (36:52):
Yeah, so I license it to this festival company essentially
to do the festival.

Speaker 1 (36:56):
And so are you so very interesting? Can you?

Speaker 3 (37:01):
Can you do Fire festival merchandise like you own Fire
Festival and everything you could do and you're going to right.

Speaker 2 (37:06):
Yeah. Another licensing deal we did was with the Broadway
Musical Company, So a company is producing a fire Broadway musical.
Similar deal, like.

Speaker 1 (37:13):
What about a movie? What about scripted movie?

Speaker 2 (37:15):
I haven't done that yet. Hopefully after Fire to is successful,
I think the redemption is probably a more interesting story.
So knock on wood.

Speaker 3 (37:22):
But and will you will you vow here on this
show that every project you ever do with Fire you
will give those investors back a piece of it?

Speaker 2 (37:31):
Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent. So it's in their interest
to make Fire to work. There's no ask from them.
But it's like, you know, cheers silently from the sideline,
and you know, when it works, it benefits everybody.

Speaker 3 (37:42):
That will be interesting if one day you pay them
back with it, you're paying more than you took, right,
you're going to make you want to make them money?

Speaker 2 (37:49):
Yeah, absolutely, there's like, right, there's mandatory interest at it
on top.

Speaker 3 (37:53):
I'm not sure if you want that, Like you should
do a poet like ak okay, so you you should
have it be if you make over fifty million and
you're gonna give them a kicker, like there's a kicker
a bonus, you should really do that. And then so
your honest personal goal is that you pay them all
back plus a bonus, and that you're then able to
go like personally apologize and say I made good, I

(38:14):
recognize my actions, et cetera, and never.

Speaker 2 (38:17):
Take more than one festival. Let's say in five years
after five fire Festival is a movie, a musical, whatever,
like it might get there, right like that about.

Speaker 3 (38:24):
Twenty seven million with the right merch brand for Fire Festival.
Believe it or not, I would invest in that.

Speaker 2 (38:29):
Yeah, it's not absurd, it's it's possible.

Speaker 3 (38:31):
No, I don't think it's I don't think I don't
think it's five years. I think if you did, if
you had a merch brand and the festival and certain
things like I don't know, like it's very like edgy,
like BMX stuff, skateboard stuff, people that take chances and
do stupid things like I'm a marketer too, but I.

Speaker 2 (38:47):
Think I lean in, like lean into the recklessness of it,
like you know Freres.

Speaker 1 (38:51):
Yeah, but don't.

Speaker 3 (38:52):
You shouldn't lean into loving it and gloating it. You
should be the conservative guy. But it works for brands
like that type of shit, let's ski off of cliffs
and stuff like that, in my opinion, agreed. Well, I
have to say, this is an unexpected interesting conversation and
now I'm invested and I want to see what happens.

Speaker 2 (39:10):
Thank you, Yeah, thank you very much.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 3 (39:12):
Is there anything else you wanted to say? Talk about market?
Get out there.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
I think I think it's cool that you know. I
my start was seeing you to nightclub and thinking how
as the coolest nineteen year old in the world being
in the same room. And come full circle now many
years later and many many flaws and mistakes later, but
it's wild to see this rid of life. And hopefully
in thirteen more years we can have a different conversation
than this one.

Speaker 1 (39:33):
Yeah, And is the right that you want to say
to all these people.

Speaker 2 (39:36):
I think too. I'm sure some of my investors are listening. Like,
I've apologized to all you guys and I'm sorry, and uh,
we're doing our best to pay you guys back and
hopefully these entities pay off.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
So we're actually speak loud of the words, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (39:50):
Exactly, and that's it takes time, it takes actions, and
apologies are meaningless at this point. It's more about showing
you guys the results.

Speaker 1 (39:56):
And what about your parents and your sister?

Speaker 2 (39:58):
Yeah, hopefully there listening, but I.

Speaker 1 (40:01):
Think they might be. So what do you want to say?

Speaker 2 (40:03):
I think recognizing that the people who are punished the
most were actually family and who were punished harder than me,
harder than investors, harder than attendees or our family. They
you know, have the emotional attachment and they ultimately got
a worse punishment that I did.

Speaker 3 (40:17):
So yeah, and you weren't solitary confinement in ten years
and you still think they got a worse punishment for sure,
for sure for ten months.

Speaker 1 (40:22):
Sorry. Okay, thank you so much, very interesting and thanks.

Speaker 3 (40:26):
I can't wait till you get the thirty four million
back plus plus.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
Thank you