December 24, 2025 • 49 mins
We look back at Bethenny's conversation with Actress, singer/songwriter, activist and drag queen, Peppermint with a very personal discussion about her journey. Peppermint shares the details of having to come out twice, her unsuspecting role model and a very big detail that’s missing in reality TV.
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Speaker 1 (00:12):
O Low.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nice to meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's so great to meet you. Thank you so much
for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Of course, well thank you for being here. Have you
been how long have you been in New York since
you were first in New York? Because I know you
grew up in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and Wilmington, Delaware, which was
we'll get into, but have you been in New York
since you first came to New York.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I've been in New York since.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I've been in New York since the nineties, since nineteen
ninety eight, since college. So I grew up in those
places and then came right after high school, which needed
desperately to like find somewhere to go to be with
the creatives, and New York.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Was a place to go to feel accepted. Yeah, I
feel like even do you feel like even places like
La or Miami still aren't as accepting as a place
like New York. Is it the most accepting place in
the world? Have you traveled the world?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You know, I have traveled a bunch, and I would
say that New York is probably not the most accepting
place in the world.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
For probably not.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
It's definitely extremely diverse and it's interesting even in places
where there's diversity, sometimes it doesn't have all the other
things you need. A lot of places that I've been
to in the South and in the Midwest seem to
be really accepting. And the biggest I guess signal of
(01:43):
acceptance for me, for the most part is as a
trans person, because right now that's a hot topic.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
What are the types of experiences that people are having? Now?
People are having some bad experiences.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
But when I was sort of a little younger but
able to travel, I realized I was having some good
experiences in these places, and I.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Was really puzzled.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
But then I looked a little bit deeper. It's not
just that those places are just accepting. It's that there's
less visibility of queer people, people who are out.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Whereas people in New York.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Not everyone, of course, there's all kinds of people in
New York and la and all the other places, but
a lot of people in New York are generally more,
at least in like the mainstream areas.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Sometimes more educated.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
They may have more exposure to different groups and things
like that. And so you know, I remember watching a
really early episode of the Real World back in the
day Miami can't remember his name, one of the guys
on there, but he was from New York and this
was in nineteen ninety three or four Ural World Miami,
(02:51):
and I remember just having learned about the rainbow flag.
Now I know that is like everybody knows about that now,
but there was a moment in time where people would
use the rainbow flag.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
As sort of code.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
They would have a little sticker or a little piece
of jewelry, and to most people it was just a rainbow.
It didn't mean it had nothing to do with the
queer community. But to people in the community, it was
the signal that this place is LGBTQ friendly. And I
remember watching an episode and all the other housemates and
cast members were like, what's this rainbow on the door
of this place? And the guy from New York was like, Oh,
(03:27):
that means that they're gay friendly or LGBT friendly. And
he wasn't a part of the community, but he was
a business owner and kind of and was a New
Yorker and he just knew, so like, that's kind of
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay, well, that's definitely interesting. And also New York is
like a big cafeteria, where like the Upper East Side
is certainly not the same as going into the west Village,
you know, Harlem or Chelsea or Five Eye, so you know,
it could be a mean girl's cafeteria too, exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So you know it's it is so wild.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You go into you go over a few streets, and
you're in a completely different area, different vibe, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
An acceptance level. If you're walking around Westley Village, you're
gonna have a different experience. And if you're walking on eighty,
you know Carnegie, you know totally that's interesting. So what
how big is your family?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Uh, they're kind of small. You know.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
My mom has four had four siblings. A couple of
people have passed, Uh, but my mom grew up with
four siblings and they all had most of them had kids,
a couple of them didn't, and but like one or two.
So like you know, each generation is like five people.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And are you close with your are your parents alive?
Are you close with them?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
I'm close with my mom. Yeah, both my parents are alive.
But I am close with my mom. Yeah, she's we're
kind of close in age. And so people you say,
when I was younger, people would just assume that we
were when we were both when we were both younger,
people would assume that we were siblings and not, you know,
(05:02):
she wasn't my mother.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And you talk about not you know, sort of stifling,
not non conforming in high school. So how did that work?
And when you know, what was your childhood like? Who
somebody is is obviously their entire identity, but having to
explain it and talk about it and also being an
(05:25):
activist about it is not everybody. It's probably like a
gift and a burden because you constantly have to explain
yourself and explain your story it is.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
It's both.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
It's both a gift and a burden, and something I'm
dedicated to because I think it's really important because I
want people to learn.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I want to be able to connect with people.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I want my other you know, siblings in the queer
community to have a good experience, especially people who are
younger who may come after me. And it also does
feel like a bit of a job sometimes, and.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So just being you is sometimes a job. Just being
who you actually are like is just a job sometimes.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, it can feel like that, especially if being me
allows me to connect with the things.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
That I'm the most passionate about.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Of course, there It's not like someone's forcing me to
talk about trans rights or go to march and a thing.
But I think that those things are really important, and
you know, you're right. It's it's really interesting. Like right now,
in the current political climate, it's a shame. I think
the queer community and definitely people in the trans community
(06:39):
are getting a bit of a bad rap from some people,
and that means that we have to go out and
like do all this extra labor to clean up after
this sort of reputation that people are that some people,
especially some elected officials, trying to spread these some of
these elected officials, some of these politicians, some of these
like you two and talking heads that for whatever reason
(07:03):
find it very advantageous or even lucrative.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
But your childhood, so what was that like as it
pertains to who you are and not conforming?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
It was actually pretty good, I would say, like by
today's standards, it was probably middle of the road. Of course,
I had some really tough experiences. I had, you know,
bullies in school. I've experienced discrimination and different things like that,
and I learned from those things and I think that
they were although they're not what I would wish for
anybody to have to go through, and certainly not necessarily
(07:36):
what I would want to go through or choose to
go through. It sometimes comes with the territory. So I
found the lesson in a lot of those things. But
I think by today's standards, my experience in general's middle
of the road. My family was you know, you know,
growing up in a black family in the nineties, there
(07:57):
was a good chance that, well, my family was all
like democrat like in terms of their political you know, associations,
and so they were very I guess the best word
would be like tolerant of everything across the board. Now
that's we learned that tolerant is not the ideal because
(08:20):
it doesn't necessarily make room for like a lot of
understanding or really like have you know, a lot of
caring and understanding. But it means that they weren't like
constantly demonizing me. I have other friends who grew up
in a really you know, extremely religious household or an
extremely conservative household, and some of the things that their
(08:45):
parents would say, for instance, would be would not really
set the stage or be encouraging for them to share
with their parents who they really are or how they
really feel. And so I didn't have that experience, but
it wasn't extreme progressive. I mean, I also know friends
who whose parents said to them at a very young age,
you can be anyone you want, and no matter who
(09:07):
you love, it's fine. That wasn't my experience either. But
my family understood from a really young age that I
was very eccentric and sort of swishy and very flamboyant
and femme, and I was able to find refuge very
early on in the arts, in singing and choir and
(09:30):
drama and acting and dance, and so my family.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Was super supportive of the arts.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
So as long as I was in the arts, then
anything I did was fine, you know what I mean.
And they'd be like, oh, they're just creative. That was
like their excuse for me.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
The arts like kind of saved you in a way.
If you didn't have that that you probably would have
felt like you were on an island girl.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It's the truth.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I mean, if there was if there was no if
the arts wasn't present, which I mean, that would be
a completely different world. But like the arts in schools specifically,
because that's usually where I faced most of my social
experiences as a kid, That's what you do. You socialize
in school, So if you're going to meet a bully,
it's either going to be in the neighborhood or another
school or classmate or something. And so a lot of
(10:16):
my experience is the negative experiences that I had around
being teased for who I am and being queer were
in school.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And so in school, my.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Refuge was definitely the arts art class, drama class, music
class where I was a I was in well, I
was around other people who were also creative, uh and
maybe also would eventually be queer or part of the
trans community or whatever. But then also I was in
(10:47):
a sort of safety and numbers space where sports wasn't
the dominating activity where bullies would have felt out of
place for the most part going into that sort of environment.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And so you're good at something. So being good at
something in that space means you're thriving.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yeah, And here's a shout out to anybody who has
the power to vote for or support music education in schools.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It's really important.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I for until fifth grade, all from like all the
way through my schooling until sixth grade, actually was able to.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Enjoy playing the cello.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And then suddenly I moved to a school where they
didn't have music in school and that was gone forever,
and so yeah, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And I'm friends with Ryan Murphy, and I have to
shout out that show Glee, because it really did address
everything and normalize and promote and celebrate and I think
that was an important show for you know. I watched
it with my daughter, and I loved watching it later,
like during the pandemic, not when I was first airing.
(11:52):
Seeing every week them addressed something different, alcoholism, pregnancy, gay
a beauty. Yeah, like it really addressed in music was
being popular for being in the you know, in the chorus,
which in my growing up course for me, I was
always in the chorus and I was in the plays.
But like it wasn't cool. It wasn't cool to be
(12:13):
you know at all. But I loved it. I loved
being in the chorus. Interesting, how old were you when
you came out?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
I came out, like on a large scale, I came
out twice at least. First I came out as liking boys,
and then I came out as trans and sort of
that's just like the process that I, you know, followed.
There are people who even don't and that's common for
a lot of trans people. It's to like sort of
(12:57):
step into your queerness first and then fine tune it,
you know, because especially people my age are people who
grew up in the nineties, there wasn't a lot of
articulation about being by or pan sexual or trans or
nuance the nuance.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, chocolate or vanilla.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
There's not like exactly it was like gay or straight?
What are you?
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And so there was I'm not gay, I don't identify
as gay, but that was like the closest thing I had,
you know what I mean? Also like when I got
check a box, Yeah, like by the same token. Like today,
as a black trans woman, people that I idolize are you
know a lot of people like Laverne Cox, who's very
(13:42):
well known and she's obviously black in trans. So that's
who I would point to today. But when I was
growing up, there wasn't someone like Laverne Cox's visible in
public on TV and in the public eye. So the
closest thing I had at a certain at one moment
in time was like Richard Simmons, who is not really
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You can't pick you know, is he because ad never
discussed it? Is he gay? Is he straight, He's out exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But he was obviously very flamboyant.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
He had all the characteristics that I would get teased
for so and he was owning his power. He was
he was definitely a person in control of his realm
Ladies were like screaming and hollering like he was Michael Jackson,
you know, like he had power, you know, And and
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Really an identity or like honesty. He probably was fighting
a ton too, but he got to be express himself exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
So that was the closest type of thing we had.
So by that token, I couldn't really articulate I'm a
trans woman back in the day interesting and so that.
So then later on when I learned more about it
and realized and I found the art of drag, and
I realized, oh there are there's more. This is more
fine tune, and this feels more correct, and I was
(15:01):
able to come out as trans.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And then, but even for gay people.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Depending on the company you keep, sometimes you have to
come out more than once to your friend group, to
the people at work, to your family, and sometimes those
are different phases in your life, you know, Like I realized, oh,
you know that myself and another trans woman, Yes, we
may face a lot of things. Or myself and another
CIS woman like yourself, I'm we might face a lot
(15:28):
of this, a lot of things that are similar in
terms of discrimination, in terms of the barriers that.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
We face, or different things.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
What's a woman as this.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Woman is a woman who's not trans, and you know
that's that's it really is for the distinction.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Of of you know, you're a woman, I'm a woman,
but we're different women.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
We're different types of women.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yes, I'm a trans woman and a woman who who
I aligns with her gender at birth and never felt
like anything was wrong or that she needed to change
anything in terms of her gender. Uh, would would be
in the category of CIS gender, and that is uh.
There has been some controversy around that term. I think
a lot of people who either don't understand it or
(16:11):
want to further marginalize the trans community, you know, find
issue with that word.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Uh. It's not a slur.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
It is a word that's meant to clarify because we
both have the experience of womanhood and even even there's uh, well,
I will say this, we both have the experience of
what it's like to be to grow up in a
in a world, in a country that is dominant, dominated
by men and the patriarchy, and we have the experience
(16:42):
of being treated a certain way because of our proximity
to femininity.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
You know, for you, that.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Is probably natural you are a cists woman. Obviously for me,
it is natural for me to be fem and flamboyant.
That's how I've always been. But uh, to come into
my womanhood, I had to sort of take certain steps,
and so that's really that distinction. But here we are
and we both face a lot of the same things.
(17:10):
But of course my blackness other parts of my identity. Obviously,
my transness means that my route to that meant I
had to take a different intersection, and at that intersection,
I experience different things. At certain intersections there's red lights,
and certain intersections there's green lights, and sometimes there's no
stoplight at all, or sometimes there's a stop sign and
(17:32):
a stoplight and a crossing guard and a railroad train
track and yellow light.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
You know, Well, I think words are really important, and
I think and opposed me too, and black Lives Matter
world and the pandemic gave people a lot of time
to sit home and like think and discuss, and there
were a lot of there's a lot bubbling up. I
think words you know, became a big thing because not
everybody knew the right terms and people are scared to speak.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
The way that they're used really to takes how they're perceived.
And so there was a moment in time, right, Yeah,
there was a moment in time where the F word
where honestly anything that became a mainstream word that everyone
whether they were gay, straight, whoever they.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Were, knew that word. At some point.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
However, the dominating part of society feels about that community,
they're going to use that what mainstream word as a
weapon against that smaller group. So if you're a marginalized
community and no one knows about you, then you can
use different words. It's going to have less of an impact.
But the minute people who like to discriminate understand how
(18:43):
that word is used and how it associates you, they're
going to use it to demonize you and say and
so for a lot of people, you know, when there
was a thing and there certainly still is a thing
in terms of discrimination called gay bashing, where people who
were queer we're getting beaten up. Yes, being identified on
the street, and a lot of times the words that
(19:06):
the maybe there were people who would just go up
and beat somebody up and not say anything.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
But all so, those are the words that are associated.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
With hate when they're getting beaten up, when they're getting
discriminated against. And then the other part of it is
there is a nuance with language. Like we said, back
in the day, me and a bisexual woman and a
gay man would have all been just called gay. Well,
I think when we're when we're talking about visibility and
(19:35):
acceptance and people who we didn't know so much about visibility,
acceptance and education are things that are kind of constantly
swirling around and with a certain group, a marginalized community,
people who are discriminated against when we start to include
them into you know, like, at one point in time,
it was perfectly legal to fire someone if there if
(19:55):
they were even suspected of being gay gay, right and
so that was as recent as the nineties and so,
and even in the two thousands, right and so. And
I'm sure that there's that still could be happening to
this day. Obviously, I think people think of that as
illegal now, and we're trying to get those same protections
for people in the trans community. And but anyway, when
(20:19):
this people in these in these groups who've been discriminated
against in certain ways end up becoming more visible people
who are friendly and accepting to those parts of the community.
Oftentimes they adopt these words, but they have a little
less information, but they're trying to be open minded. They're
trying to make sure that they make everyone feel safe
and included. But then, of course when the bigots come
(20:43):
around and learn that word and use.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It to write and weaponize it, so we got to
change the word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.
I get I get it. Are you in a relationship?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
No? I love?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Do you date?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
No? I'm not dating right now.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Uh, there's someone who I'm in love with and we
uh we're we're not together at the moment, but I
hope we get back together again.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And is this person in the entertainment industry or are
they like a civilian like a business But like, what
type of I'm not outing this person or whoever you're dating,
but I just meant, like, what's that, what's your type?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
He is not a he's a civilian, he's not in entertainment,
And I don't I would be perfectly fine dating somebody
in entertainment, but I do think that it's probably not
what I want. He just came back into my life
and expressed some stuff to me, and so there's a
deeper conversation. We'll have to do a part too, because okay,
(21:49):
I don't fully know, but he's he's a really accepting guy.
He doesn't seem there are some men who deal with
sort of a sense of shame because of not because
they're it's just because they're inherently just ashamed of who
they are, or that they're dating.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Trans women, for instance.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
But it's I think it primarily has to do with
what other people think about them when they find out.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Oh yeah, no, there's a whole layer. That's why I'm
fascinated because I spoke to someone else about this, and
it's interesting because this person was dating someone who had
just was from New England and traditional, very traditional, very
you know. It's it's people are attracted to the opposite
(22:31):
a lot a lot of times, the opposite of like
their constricting lives. So are you attracted to conservative men
like you? Like?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
What? That's really interesting?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I I certainly have dated this person is somewhat conservative,
like socially liberal, but maybe politically.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
And financially you know, like fiscally you know, the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I do think, and it is interesting there does seem
to be a pattern, Like you said, we're sort of
opposites tracting in terms of that, Well, there's what's the word.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
They're not repressed stifled like because.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
You know, yeah, yeah, I think some people who are
repressed are attracted to those who are who are more free. Perhaps,
of course, I think that speaks to like what we
really want is I think in the in the at
the end of the day, a lot of people who
are repressed or who've been sort of who need freedom,
want freedom, So they're attracted to freedom and liberation.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Uh. And for people like me who are.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Maybe experiencing that right now, what I'm looking for is
a sense of like sort of groundedness and not that
you can't be grounded and liberated or free, but you know,
people in terms of relationships, I think a lot of
a lot of times people who are more conservative and
more sort of straight laced have a closer connection to
(23:58):
this is going to be a hot take a relationship
with business and capitalism and sort of the status quo
and a mainstream sort of persona and identity that's more accepted.
And for some people who've already found personally their identity,
(24:18):
their truth, they have what they need, you know, personally,
then being connected to that sort of stability can be
attractive as well.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Well.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Right, you've dealt with a certain amount of turmoil, you
may not be attracted to somebody who's dealing with a
certain turmoil. Both houses can't be on fire at the
same time. Like, so it's nice to be, you know,
like a rock to someone who's like grounded in their
identity is attractive because sometimes you've had to battle with that.
So that makes that makes sense, you know save So
(24:52):
what do you think about how brands? Do you think
brands have botched this up like bud Light and Target
and then it becomes this whole big thing, and then
you have people saying negative things and was it were
they was it the execution of these brands trying to
do the right thing? And were they authentically doing the
right thing or were they trying to check the box
(25:13):
because of you know who who's watching and that they
think that they're getting attention for doing the right thing.
You know what I'm saying, is it grounded integrity or
is it because we're checking boxes and then they're watching
it because not authentic.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I think, just speaking generally, I do think that it's
important for brands and and and large businesses to demonstrate
and be accepting of of all different types of people.
I think that uh, you know, we we as people
in the queer community are here, We have been that
(25:47):
it's not new, even though people are just finding out
about it on their TikTok or something, We've been around,
you know what I mean. And even though we didn't
always have the words and we weren't always included, like,
for instance, it was illegal for people to be gay
in public or at their job in the past, in
the sixties, in the seventies, it was punishable by jail
(26:07):
at certain times, it was punishable by being fired, and
it was legal to discriminate at certain times. And so
that doesn't say, hey, we want everybody to come out
and tell us about it. Meant that people had to
be more closeted and more secretive and you know, not
share who they are.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
But it doesn't mean that they weren't there.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
It just meant that they weren't talking about it right
Now that we have more acceptance and people are feeling
free to be who they are, what people want is
to be included in not only at their places at work,
but also in marketing and represented because representation matters. And
so in order to do that, companies need to be
inclusive in their advertising, in their casting on their TV
shows and things like that.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And they understand that now.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
That there was a moment in time and I think
that they didn't understand that, but now I do think
they understand that.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
And up until twenty.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Up until a five or six years ago, I think
it was easy for companies to sort of sign I
low their inclusion. They'd be I know that they would
place an ad on Super Bowl that was all about
Macho Macho for the people who watched Super Bowl and
for the people who are watching Housewives. If the gays
watching Housewives, they'll do a Housewives version as well. And
(27:15):
so like you didn't necessarily they didn't have They weren't
getting caught sort of playing all sides of the field
or all sides of the fence.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
It felt but it felt token, like a token exousment.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
But it was token. It was token. I believe it
was token, right.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
But if brands are going to come and and put
that foot forward and market towards the trans community, you
know they better do it right because you want that
to be mainstream. And so do you think that these
brands do you think it was this it was just
society not accepting it, or they botched the jaws, That's
what I'm saying, all of it, all of.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
It, all of it.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Their their decision to be inclusive and feature trans people.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
What's the right decision to do? The entire they did
it with.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
The tension was right, the execution wasn't necessarily correct, and
the after effect in terms of how they behaved and
how they reacted some.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Of them.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
On the side of.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
It is going to be public backlash when you're dealing
with a group of people who are currently discriminated against,
when they're when you're dealing with the part of the
community who have more than five hundred anti trans laws
and policies being passed in many states in like in
eighteen states in our country. Of course, that means there's
going to be people who react in a certain way
and are like, I don't like to see that person here.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
And we saw that certainly but.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
It was billions for bad luck, like it was billions
of time.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
But we also saw that backlash with Disney, We saw
that backlash with other people, and Disney obviously stood by
It was a little bit late, but they did stand
by the queer in the trans community in a way
that but like didn't target necessarily didn't. And some of
these brands they sort of they they they made a
bold statement, but then took it back away and said, actually, no,
we're not making a bold statement. And that is where
(29:00):
than making the bold statement.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, so that meant that they were trying to check
a box. But it was bullshit, is what you're saying,
Like that's what I'm saying, Like they would No.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
It's not, it's bullshit. They were trying to check the box,
and they should have checked the box. And they understand
that that box is real. But what they realize is
there's not just one box. There's a there for every box.
There's an opposite box that also is important to them.
And so it's like trying.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
To they were playing.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
They had to play, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
We want, we want, we want vegetarians and we want
meat eaters, so we have to do a vegetarian ad
and we do a meat eater ad, and the meat
eater see the vegetarian ad, they're going to be angry.
And if the vegetarians see the meat eaters ad, they're
going to be angry. Before they were able to just
again silo their their ads and market to a certain group.
(29:47):
But now you can't because now just if there's a
person who's in this marginalized group, if the vegetarian has
ten million followers, everyone's going to find out.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very different it's a very different world. Interesting. Okay,
So let's get to Traders, which you loved and were
excited to do. And it was like someone they say,
don't meet your idols or whatever they say, like right,
because they might disappoint. So it was it sounds from
what I read that it was a disappointing experience.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
My experience was disappointing. I have to say first, I
still love the show. I am a huge fan of
the show. I really support the show. I think it's
a great a different type of kind of reality competition
show that I think is interesting. I'm a horror fan,
I'm I'm a mystery fan, and so I do love that,
but my experience, and while I do think that they
(30:44):
did a good job casting, I think that there was
a few missed opportunities in their casting and also in
the way that the show played out and the way
that the show was sort of run.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So that impacted my experience, right, yea, So it's more.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
The production versus the cast people.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Now, I think the people that were cast, my experience was.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It was just the entire thing.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I encountered, someone who I had an experience that was
sort of affected by sort of a mob mentality and
the fact that I was a loaner on the show.
And had I not been a loaner on the show,
then maybe my experience would have been different. For instance,
in season one of the American version of Traders, aside
(31:37):
from the fact that there was half reality stars and half
civilians who had never done reality, there were I think
eighteen people in that cast, and there were two out
queer people of color. My season season two there were
twenty one of us and more people and less out
queer people. I was the only out queer person on
(31:57):
the show. Obviously, Alan Cumming is the host, He's not
a contestant, and so I didn't really have a lot
of people that I could identify with, and that was
this I would I realized that very quickly when people
were like, oh my, like when all the Housewives, it's
worthy thing. All the house on the four Housewives were
grouping up and they were talking about the housewives stuff.
(32:18):
Everybody else you know, there's the gamers, people were saying.
In this season, there was a lot of people who
were in like you know, the Challenge and shows like that,
were gathering and then it was just me in the middle.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
You really felt like an outsider just for.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
That because I was on Drag Race. There was no
other people from my show, even if they even if
drag Race wasn't about doing drag like, there was nobody
else on the show that.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I shared the experience. So I was the only one.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
And people didn't really watch drag Race, and so they
just kind of had their I think, first impressions and
that's all they could go by, and they didn't really
take the time to really get to know me, and
so that that was all on the contestants.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
And the cast, and that ever did your skill in
the game of the game.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
It effected my gameplay.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
If someone had made the decision the cast didn't cast themselves,
So if someone had made the decision to put more
than one of me on there, then that would have
been allowed me to have more people to align with.
And so that's why I'm saying production obviously had a
hand and who got on the show. It's not like
the casts made their own choice of casting themselves. And
(33:25):
so that's where production I think could benefit when I
say missed opportunity. It's beneficial to the rest of the
world to see different types of people. It's beneficial to
the viewing audience to understand that there are queer people,
that there are trans people, and it's beneficial for people
who the viewers to understand that there's more than one
black person, there's more than one trans person that exists
(33:47):
in this world. And we don't always have to go
with the formula of twenty two white people and one
black person, twenty two straight people and one queer person,
Like why does that have to be twenty two white
people and one Asian person or one Latin person only?
Like can we have how different would the show look
(34:08):
if it was twenty two black people and one white person.
Everybody knows that that would be a different experience, So
why can't it be half and half? Or why why
can't we mix it up a little? Can there be two?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You know right right? You felt like it?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
What?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, you felt like an outsider and you were at
a disadvantage.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah, I was an outsider.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
And the show relies on, as many shows do, first impressions,
And so first impressions have a lot to do with
what you already think. If you don't know someone who
comes in and they're from another country or of a
different race, and you don't really have a lot of
experience with these types of people, or someone who's queer,
(34:48):
or someone who's this or that, and you don't understand,
you don't really connect with that, or you don't know
much about that person and that individual you haven't had
a chance to get to know them as a person,
have a lot of conversation with them. You're going to
have to go go buy whatever you know about that
group when you were growing up, You know what I mean?
If I had a really terrible experience with a farmer
(35:09):
when I was growing up, and and and it was
a horrible experience, then the next time I meet a farmer,
I'm going to think of that horrible experience, and I'm
going to treat them the way that I would treat
them given that experience. Now, if I get to meet
a new farmer who's completely different and I have a
wonderful experience, then it can start to change. But if
(35:30):
I vote that farmer out immediately because I'm like, oh,
I know farmers, I don't want to I don't even
even know this person's name by then what are we learning?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Right?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Right, right, all right, right that? But you're assuming that
the show wants to you know, here's what's interesting. This
is where the line is. You're assuming that the show
wants to take on that responsibility. And it's funny because
they don't. Right well, because and that's what you're trying
to change or just that's what you're trying to discuss.
(35:59):
The line and the question is whether or not a
reality show should reflect just reality like and then who's deciding. So,
let's say to take off Republicans, which is a big,
big criticism by the way of Housewives that people and
the powers that be will fire people because of their
political views. I've heard that too many times that I'm
sure it is true, and I've actually heard it from
producers like, oh, this person you know, voted for Trump,
(36:23):
and so they and they don't like their views, so
they want to fire them from the show. It's a
real thing. It's a real thing on several Housewives shows.
Should a reality show reflect reality or should a reality
show reflect what should be?
Speaker 3 (36:38):
To answer that question, the answer to that question probably
relies on is your what is the impact that you
want your show to make? Who do you want to
watch a show? I agree, want to accept the show,
and what message do you want to send? Statistically, statistically,
for my situation, there's more queer people and black people,
definitely more queer people in terms of statistically and percentage
(37:02):
wise in this country than than the odds of one
out of twenty one. They're you know generally, oh yes, good,
good point, and so that's less. That's not reality. If
we're going by like a cross section of who's out
and who you know, it's a lot more. It's actually like,
you know, two out of ten adults would identify as
(37:23):
LGBT and so.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Well, the question is the responsibility falls on this multi
billion dollar public company to do that. It's just interesting
when you have like you know, say you have like
one of the housewive shows, the New York house Wives,
let's just say, and then you decide you're going to
put the three Upper east Side white women and you're
going to have three black women and one trans person
(37:50):
on the show, when their initial mandate was that it
has to be people that are really friends. So now
it's not even like like Ramona and Ebony were not friends,
and this show tried to like put them together to
be friends, and then the audience is like, wait, this
isn't real. So those are interesting.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, it's so.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Nuanced, but yeah, but you are a composition show.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, show, it's not even friends, so so there's less
of a reason to kind.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Of you know, no, yeah, you could cast anybody you want.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
But even in the Housewives sort of uh examples. The
key or the kicker is the business of it all.
When when we're trying to make money, when we're trying
to make money from the show with advertising and different things,
then we needed to be as as appeal to as
many people as possible. We want the Upper west Side,
(38:45):
Upper east Side white women, but we also want people
who are in Brooklyn who like, we want everyone to
watch it, and that's where where they have to figure
out how they're going to balance it because they know
that the people from Brooklyn, or the people from the
South or the people from this aren't going to watch
just one group that's not like them, and vice versa.
The people from the Upper East Side are not necessarily
watching a show about a bunch of black folks from Brooklyn,
(39:07):
and so they have to find a way to balance it.
And that's where it's maybe inauthentic, but you know, there
are those pockets where it really does mix.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
You know, I guess yes, no, and you.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Have to So what is I never heard the term
dead name?
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Dead name is a term uh that's used by people
in the queer community to uh. To dead name refers
to someone's a word or a name, a name that
someone that is associated with someone previously.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
In their past.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
And for for people who aren't queer, or who aren't
in the trans community, or who that maybe to that
term is new to it basically is the name that
that person was given when they were younger, when their
parents named them, for instance. But a lot of people
change their names, and so so you know, for some people,
being associated with their previous name can associate them with
(40:05):
places and people and things that give them bad memories.
For instance, yeah, someone was married and they had their
abusive partner's name when they were married. They might want
to whether they get married again or not, they might
want to change that name. And they might not want
to be referred to by that old name because it
reminds them of that abusive partner a terrible time in
(40:27):
their life, when they were depressed or when something was
terrible going wrong. And it also may say to them
it may if depending on the name, if that name
is a well known name of an abuser, you might
you're not going to want to keep that old name
as a married person, because then other people will treat
you differently and not for who you really are, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
What I mean.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
When you meet someone new in life, they tell you
their name, and what do you do next? You call
them that name. You don't dig and be like, well
let me go back. You don't like, you know, get
a private investment. Really is her name really Sally? You
don't do that for the average person. When Sally comes
up to you and says I'm Sally, you call her Sally,
you know.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
And so that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
But Unfortunately, there is an effort by some to expose
trans people. Only, not married people who are formerly connected
to an abusive person, not cis gender people who have
decided to change their name for different reasons, But there's
an effort to expose trans people and sort of communicate
(41:30):
that trans people are perpetrators and are liars, and are
sneaky and are trying to be deceptive, and so people
are trying to connect that to the desire to not
be associated with a name that's harmful, a name that
reminds us of a really terrible time in our lives,
and a name that doesn't reflect who we are.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Makes sense. Okay, so you're you act, you sing, you dance, Like,
what's your primary passion and career?
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Girl, I'm I'm I'm cursed with the passion of wanting
to do knitting and singing and dancing and politics all
at the same time, which is terrible for Riley know
who you are.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Well, it's I think it's more terrible, is not. I
think terrible is a terrible word for it. But I think,
like for branding purposes, it's challenging because if you try
to please everybody, you please nobody. You know, what so so,
so what is the base? Like what are you working on?
But by the way, I'm I don't know how old
you are. You're younger than I am, obviously, but I'm
(42:46):
at a certain age where I really do exactly what
I want to do. So I just was in Vancouver
and did a Lifetime movie and I didn't have any
reason to do it. It doesn't have anything to do
with my brand. I did it because it was presented
to me and it was different. But from like a
let me say, rand strategic perspective. If I were in
(43:06):
my like thirties and my building phase, I might not
have done it because it's not like the path I'm on.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
I grew up as an actor and a singer, and
I remember, uh, you know, and that's musical theater is
the thing obviously Broadway, like it's been a thing forever,
acting and singing at the same time. But when it
comes to Hollywood, which is different than Broadway, right, Broadway,
it's like professional theater in New York primarily less commercial. Yeah,
(43:33):
less commercial. Hollywood is obviously extremely commercial. And so I
remember seeing actors, serious actors sort of being made fun
of for making making music, making an album you know,
or or singers being told, oh, she can't act, why
is she trying to get in this movie? You're a singer,
Stay in your own lane. And I do remember that
(43:55):
being the j Low thing and other people. I do
remember that being a thing. It's maybe still a thing,
but certainly not as much as that it was twenty
years ago. And so I think now the lanes are
opening up for people. You know, people can talk about
politics and also be a musician. I remember the Dixie
Chicks had had quite a time being told literally shut
(44:18):
up and sang, which was their film that they made
when they started speaking out politically, Whereas now people expect
actors to speak out on some of the terrible things
that are happening in the world today, and so it's
a different it's a different vibe. So in that realm,
I think I'm at the right time and right place.
(44:38):
I am an actor. I've been on Broadway, I've been
in film and TV. I do sing. I went to
school for musical theater, Broadways my passion. So having been
on Broadway, of course I love to sing. So I
love to sing, whether I'm on stage or not. I
have music that I've made and put out, and.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
So you're an entertainer activist.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Entertainer one hundred and I don't even call myself an activist.
Of course, I've been involved in activism, but I think
an activist is someone who sort of does that primarily
and maybe even earn a living from it.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I don't live in that.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
It's like me with philanthropy. People call me a philanthropist,
and it makes me uncomfortable, just like calling me an
author because I've written books. It's not my identity.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, but I've certainly done those things, and you're important
to me.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
So yeah, I get people call you that because you
go and do something and then you feel.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
That then it's your responsibility.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, yes, exactly. And it feels fraudulent too in a way.
I get that. I don't like being called a philanthropist
because it makes it just sounds like I don't like
the way it sounds, even though I do a ton
of charity. I get that. Yeay, So so nice to
talk to you and to you know, learn, I had
such a great time, really really nice.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
You're a beautiful I mean.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
You are beautiful inside and out, and I'm really thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And I have to say thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
I know that the past couple of years have been
wild when it comes to reality TV, but I do
think that one of the big changes that has to
happen in reality TV is a little bit more accountability,
not only from networks and you know, people running the
show and behind the scenes, but just in general being
able to have more protections because reality TV is not
(46:23):
going anywhere. It's here to stay, and the people who
are on these reality shows, they are talent, They deserve
to earn money, they deserve protections, and I think they
deserve the same types of protections and considerations that actors
would on a set of a movie or any other
TV show. They are making entertainment, and people are making
(46:44):
money off of these shows in the same way that
they would make money off of sometimes more especially yeah,
off of TV and film.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
And so.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Although it's probably not the most desired way to go
about things necessarily, I think that you have set a
precedent and I'm seeing a lot of other conversations take
place because of it.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
And I'm really grateful to you for that, because.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
I come from a reality show that I think that
the performers the talent on those shows. My original reality show,
which is drag Race, deserve you know, certain protections and
considerations as well. And I think that ultimately the brand,
the show, the health of the brand, and the integrity
of the brand will be better off if they're able
(47:25):
to make those types of considerations. And so what you've
done has set a precedent and I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I appreciate that because it's funny because I'm hearing from
so many people that changes are being made, but no
one will stand up and say that they're making changes,
because then it indicates that they've been screwing up, you know,
and to the point of before being an activist or
a philanthropist like this isn't my cause. I'm not on
Washington marching for reality television and you know what I mean, Like,
(47:54):
that's not my I just said something and wanted to,
you know, be to support people who I didn't realize
had been exploited. And it's not the popular people that
are making a lot of money that are complaining. It's
the people that felt discarded. And I know that the
audience doesn't want their junk food taken away, and I
get that it is entertaining, and you're right, it's not
(48:16):
going anywhere, But there are a lot of things behind
the scenes that people don't really know, and it's interesting.
It's not what it seems, and no one knows what
they sign up for, like they don't they say it now.
By now, I think people kind of do because it's
been so focused on But there has been a shift
and that's great. You know, I don't need everyone who's
(48:37):
on the show is trying to protect the realm to
credit me. It's totally cool. But I appreciate you saying
that because I'm hearing that from a lot of people,
like Underground saying it's changing and thank you, but you know,
the powers that be won't say it, so it's cool. Well,
thank you so much and really great to meet you
and talk to you. Awesome, thank you, awesome, I'd have
(48:57):
a great day.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Thank you so much, Babe,
O Low.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Nice to meet you.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
It's so great to meet you. Thank you so much
for having me on.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Of course, well thank you for being here. Have you
been how long have you been in New York since
you were first in New York? Because I know you
grew up in Hershey, Pennsylvania, and Wilmington, Delaware, which was
we'll get into, but have you been in New York
since you first came to New York.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
I've been in New York since.
Speaker 3 (00:38):
I've been in New York since the nineties, since nineteen
ninety eight, since college. So I grew up in those
places and then came right after high school, which needed
desperately to like find somewhere to go to be with
the creatives, and New York.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Was a place to go to feel accepted. Yeah, I
feel like even do you feel like even places like
La or Miami still aren't as accepting as a place
like New York. Is it the most accepting place in
the world? Have you traveled the world?
Speaker 3 (01:10):
You know, I have traveled a bunch, and I would
say that New York is probably not the most accepting
place in the world.
Speaker 1 (01:18):
For probably not.
Speaker 3 (01:20):
It's definitely extremely diverse and it's interesting even in places
where there's diversity, sometimes it doesn't have all the other
things you need. A lot of places that I've been
to in the South and in the Midwest seem to
be really accepting. And the biggest I guess signal of
(01:43):
acceptance for me, for the most part is as a
trans person, because right now that's a hot topic.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
What are the types of experiences that people are having? Now?
People are having some bad experiences.
Speaker 3 (01:54):
But when I was sort of a little younger but
able to travel, I realized I was having some good
experiences in these places, and I.
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Was really puzzled.
Speaker 3 (02:03):
But then I looked a little bit deeper. It's not
just that those places are just accepting. It's that there's
less visibility of queer people, people who are out.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
Whereas people in New York.
Speaker 3 (02:14):
Not everyone, of course, there's all kinds of people in
New York and la and all the other places, but
a lot of people in New York are generally more,
at least in like the mainstream areas.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Sometimes more educated.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
They may have more exposure to different groups and things
like that. And so you know, I remember watching a
really early episode of the Real World back in the
day Miami can't remember his name, one of the guys
on there, but he was from New York and this
was in nineteen ninety three or four Ural World Miami,
(02:51):
and I remember just having learned about the rainbow flag.
Now I know that is like everybody knows about that now,
but there was a moment in time where people would
use the rainbow flag.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
As sort of code.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
They would have a little sticker or a little piece
of jewelry, and to most people it was just a rainbow.
It didn't mean it had nothing to do with the
queer community. But to people in the community, it was
the signal that this place is LGBTQ friendly. And I
remember watching an episode and all the other housemates and
cast members were like, what's this rainbow on the door
of this place? And the guy from New York was like, Oh,
(03:27):
that means that they're gay friendly or LGBT friendly. And
he wasn't a part of the community, but he was
a business owner and kind of and was a New
Yorker and he just knew, so like, that's kind of
what I mean.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
Okay, well, that's definitely interesting. And also New York is
like a big cafeteria, where like the Upper East Side
is certainly not the same as going into the west Village,
you know, Harlem or Chelsea or Five Eye, so you know,
it could be a mean girl's cafeteria too, exactly.
Speaker 1 (03:56):
So you know it's it is so wild.
Speaker 3 (03:58):
You go into you go over a few streets, and
you're in a completely different area, different vibe, you know.
Speaker 2 (04:04):
An acceptance level. If you're walking around Westley Village, you're
gonna have a different experience. And if you're walking on eighty,
you know Carnegie, you know totally that's interesting. So what
how big is your family?
Speaker 1 (04:16):
Uh, they're kind of small. You know.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
My mom has four had four siblings. A couple of
people have passed, Uh, but my mom grew up with
four siblings and they all had most of them had kids,
a couple of them didn't, and but like one or two.
So like you know, each generation is like five people.
Speaker 2 (04:38):
And are you close with your are your parents alive?
Are you close with them?
Speaker 3 (04:42):
I'm close with my mom. Yeah, both my parents are alive.
But I am close with my mom. Yeah, she's we're
kind of close in age. And so people you say,
when I was younger, people would just assume that we
were when we were both when we were both younger,
people would assume that we were siblings and not, you know,
(05:02):
she wasn't my mother.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
And you talk about not you know, sort of stifling,
not non conforming in high school. So how did that work?
And when you know, what was your childhood like? Who
somebody is is obviously their entire identity, but having to
explain it and talk about it and also being an
(05:25):
activist about it is not everybody. It's probably like a
gift and a burden because you constantly have to explain
yourself and explain your story it is.
Speaker 1 (05:35):
It's both.
Speaker 3 (05:36):
It's both a gift and a burden, and something I'm
dedicated to because I think it's really important because I
want people to learn.
Speaker 1 (05:44):
I want to be able to connect with people.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
I want my other you know, siblings in the queer
community to have a good experience, especially people who are
younger who may come after me. And it also does
feel like a bit of a job sometimes, and.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
So just being you is sometimes a job. Just being
who you actually are like is just a job sometimes.
Speaker 3 (06:07):
Yeah, it can feel like that, especially if being me
allows me to connect with the things.
Speaker 1 (06:14):
That I'm the most passionate about.
Speaker 3 (06:17):
Of course, there It's not like someone's forcing me to
talk about trans rights or go to march and a thing.
But I think that those things are really important, and
you know, you're right. It's it's really interesting. Like right now,
in the current political climate, it's a shame. I think
the queer community and definitely people in the trans community
(06:39):
are getting a bit of a bad rap from some people,
and that means that we have to go out and
like do all this extra labor to clean up after
this sort of reputation that people are that some people,
especially some elected officials, trying to spread these some of
these elected officials, some of these politicians, some of these
like you two and talking heads that for whatever reason
(07:03):
find it very advantageous or even lucrative.
Speaker 2 (07:06):
But your childhood, so what was that like as it
pertains to who you are and not conforming?
Speaker 3 (07:13):
It was actually pretty good, I would say, like by
today's standards, it was probably middle of the road. Of course,
I had some really tough experiences. I had, you know,
bullies in school. I've experienced discrimination and different things like that,
and I learned from those things and I think that
they were although they're not what I would wish for
anybody to have to go through, and certainly not necessarily
(07:36):
what I would want to go through or choose to
go through. It sometimes comes with the territory. So I
found the lesson in a lot of those things. But
I think by today's standards, my experience in general's middle
of the road. My family was you know, you know,
growing up in a black family in the nineties, there
(07:57):
was a good chance that, well, my family was all
like democrat like in terms of their political you know, associations,
and so they were very I guess the best word
would be like tolerant of everything across the board. Now
that's we learned that tolerant is not the ideal because
(08:20):
it doesn't necessarily make room for like a lot of
understanding or really like have you know, a lot of
caring and understanding. But it means that they weren't like
constantly demonizing me. I have other friends who grew up
in a really you know, extremely religious household or an
extremely conservative household, and some of the things that their
(08:45):
parents would say, for instance, would be would not really
set the stage or be encouraging for them to share
with their parents who they really are or how they
really feel. And so I didn't have that experience, but
it wasn't extreme progressive. I mean, I also know friends
who whose parents said to them at a very young age,
you can be anyone you want, and no matter who
(09:07):
you love, it's fine. That wasn't my experience either. But
my family understood from a really young age that I
was very eccentric and sort of swishy and very flamboyant
and femme, and I was able to find refuge very
early on in the arts, in singing and choir and
(09:30):
drama and acting and dance, and so my family.
Speaker 1 (09:33):
Was super supportive of the arts.
Speaker 3 (09:36):
So as long as I was in the arts, then
anything I did was fine, you know what I mean.
And they'd be like, oh, they're just creative. That was
like their excuse for me.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
The arts like kind of saved you in a way.
If you didn't have that that you probably would have
felt like you were on an island girl.
Speaker 1 (09:50):
It's the truth.
Speaker 3 (09:52):
I mean, if there was if there was no if
the arts wasn't present, which I mean, that would be
a completely different world. But like the arts in schools specifically,
because that's usually where I faced most of my social
experiences as a kid, That's what you do. You socialize
in school, So if you're going to meet a bully,
it's either going to be in the neighborhood or another
school or classmate or something. And so a lot of
(10:16):
my experience is the negative experiences that I had around
being teased for who I am and being queer were
in school.
Speaker 1 (10:24):
And so in school, my.
Speaker 3 (10:26):
Refuge was definitely the arts art class, drama class, music
class where I was a I was in well, I
was around other people who were also creative, uh and
maybe also would eventually be queer or part of the
trans community or whatever. But then also I was in
(10:47):
a sort of safety and numbers space where sports wasn't
the dominating activity where bullies would have felt out of
place for the most part going into that sort of environment.
Speaker 2 (11:00):
And so you're good at something. So being good at
something in that space means you're thriving.
Speaker 3 (11:05):
Yeah, And here's a shout out to anybody who has
the power to vote for or support music education in schools.
Speaker 1 (11:12):
It's really important.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
I for until fifth grade, all from like all the
way through my schooling until sixth grade, actually was able to.
Speaker 1 (11:20):
Enjoy playing the cello.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
And then suddenly I moved to a school where they
didn't have music in school and that was gone forever,
and so yeah, you know, yeah.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
And I'm friends with Ryan Murphy, and I have to
shout out that show Glee, because it really did address
everything and normalize and promote and celebrate and I think
that was an important show for you know. I watched
it with my daughter, and I loved watching it later,
like during the pandemic, not when I was first airing.
(11:52):
Seeing every week them addressed something different, alcoholism, pregnancy, gay
a beauty. Yeah, like it really addressed in music was
being popular for being in the you know, in the chorus,
which in my growing up course for me, I was
always in the chorus and I was in the plays.
But like it wasn't cool. It wasn't cool to be
(12:13):
you know at all. But I loved it. I loved
being in the chorus. Interesting, how old were you when
you came out?
Speaker 3 (12:35):
I came out, like on a large scale, I came
out twice at least. First I came out as liking boys,
and then I came out as trans and sort of
that's just like the process that I, you know, followed.
There are people who even don't and that's common for
a lot of trans people. It's to like sort of
(12:57):
step into your queerness first and then fine tune it,
you know, because especially people my age are people who
grew up in the nineties, there wasn't a lot of
articulation about being by or pan sexual or trans or
nuance the nuance.
Speaker 2 (13:14):
Yeah, chocolate or vanilla.
Speaker 1 (13:15):
There's not like exactly it was like gay or straight?
What are you?
Speaker 3 (13:20):
And so there was I'm not gay, I don't identify
as gay, but that was like the closest thing I had,
you know what I mean? Also like when I got
check a box, Yeah, like by the same token. Like today,
as a black trans woman, people that I idolize are you
know a lot of people like Laverne Cox, who's very
(13:42):
well known and she's obviously black in trans. So that's
who I would point to today. But when I was
growing up, there wasn't someone like Laverne Cox's visible in
public on TV and in the public eye. So the
closest thing I had at a certain at one moment
in time was like Richard Simmons, who is not really
you know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (14:04):
You can't pick you know, is he because ad never
discussed it? Is he gay? Is he straight, He's out exactly.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
But he was obviously very flamboyant.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
He had all the characteristics that I would get teased
for so and he was owning his power. He was
he was definitely a person in control of his realm
Ladies were like screaming and hollering like he was Michael Jackson,
you know, like he had power, you know, And and
I didn't.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
Really an identity or like honesty. He probably was fighting
a ton too, but he got to be express himself exactly.
Speaker 3 (14:38):
So that was the closest type of thing we had.
So by that token, I couldn't really articulate I'm a
trans woman back in the day interesting and so that.
So then later on when I learned more about it
and realized and I found the art of drag, and
I realized, oh there are there's more. This is more
fine tune, and this feels more correct, and I was
(15:01):
able to come out as trans.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
And then, but even for gay people.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
Depending on the company you keep, sometimes you have to
come out more than once to your friend group, to
the people at work, to your family, and sometimes those
are different phases in your life, you know, Like I realized, oh,
you know that myself and another trans woman, Yes, we
may face a lot of things. Or myself and another
CIS woman like yourself, I'm we might face a lot
(15:28):
of this, a lot of things that are similar in
terms of discrimination, in terms of the barriers that.
Speaker 1 (15:33):
We face, or different things.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
What's a woman as this.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
Woman is a woman who's not trans, and you know
that's that's it really is for the distinction.
Speaker 2 (15:42):
Of of you know, you're a woman, I'm a woman,
but we're different women.
Speaker 1 (15:48):
We're different types of women.
Speaker 3 (15:49):
Yes, I'm a trans woman and a woman who who
I aligns with her gender at birth and never felt
like anything was wrong or that she needed to change
anything in terms of her gender. Uh, would would be
in the category of CIS gender, and that is uh.
There has been some controversy around that term. I think
a lot of people who either don't understand it or
(16:11):
want to further marginalize the trans community, you know, find
issue with that word.
Speaker 1 (16:17):
Uh. It's not a slur.
Speaker 3 (16:19):
It is a word that's meant to clarify because we
both have the experience of womanhood and even even there's uh, well,
I will say this, we both have the experience of
what it's like to be to grow up in a
in a world, in a country that is dominant, dominated
by men and the patriarchy, and we have the experience
(16:42):
of being treated a certain way because of our proximity
to femininity.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
You know, for you, that.
Speaker 3 (16:49):
Is probably natural you are a cists woman. Obviously for me,
it is natural for me to be fem and flamboyant.
That's how I've always been. But uh, to come into
my womanhood, I had to sort of take certain steps,
and so that's really that distinction. But here we are
and we both face a lot of the same things.
(17:10):
But of course my blackness other parts of my identity. Obviously,
my transness means that my route to that meant I
had to take a different intersection, and at that intersection,
I experience different things. At certain intersections there's red lights,
and certain intersections there's green lights, and sometimes there's no
stoplight at all, or sometimes there's a stop sign and
(17:32):
a stoplight and a crossing guard and a railroad train
track and yellow light.
Speaker 2 (17:36):
You know, Well, I think words are really important, and
I think and opposed me too, and black Lives Matter
world and the pandemic gave people a lot of time
to sit home and like think and discuss, and there
were a lot of there's a lot bubbling up. I
think words you know, became a big thing because not
everybody knew the right terms and people are scared to speak.
Speaker 3 (17:56):
The way that they're used really to takes how they're perceived.
And so there was a moment in time, right, Yeah,
there was a moment in time where the F word
where honestly anything that became a mainstream word that everyone
whether they were gay, straight, whoever they.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Were, knew that word. At some point.
Speaker 3 (18:19):
However, the dominating part of society feels about that community,
they're going to use that what mainstream word as a
weapon against that smaller group. So if you're a marginalized
community and no one knows about you, then you can
use different words. It's going to have less of an impact.
But the minute people who like to discriminate understand how
(18:43):
that word is used and how it associates you, they're
going to use it to demonize you and say and
so for a lot of people, you know, when there
was a thing and there certainly still is a thing
in terms of discrimination called gay bashing, where people who
were queer we're getting beaten up. Yes, being identified on
the street, and a lot of times the words that
(19:06):
the maybe there were people who would just go up
and beat somebody up and not say anything.
Speaker 1 (19:11):
But all so, those are the words that are associated.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
With hate when they're getting beaten up, when they're getting
discriminated against. And then the other part of it is
there is a nuance with language. Like we said, back
in the day, me and a bisexual woman and a
gay man would have all been just called gay. Well,
I think when we're when we're talking about visibility and
(19:35):
acceptance and people who we didn't know so much about visibility,
acceptance and education are things that are kind of constantly
swirling around and with a certain group, a marginalized community,
people who are discriminated against when we start to include
them into you know, like, at one point in time,
it was perfectly legal to fire someone if there if
(19:55):
they were even suspected of being gay gay, right and
so that was as recent as the nineties and so,
and even in the two thousands, right and so. And
I'm sure that there's that still could be happening to
this day. Obviously, I think people think of that as
illegal now, and we're trying to get those same protections
for people in the trans community. And but anyway, when
(20:19):
this people in these in these groups who've been discriminated
against in certain ways end up becoming more visible people
who are friendly and accepting to those parts of the community.
Oftentimes they adopt these words, but they have a little
less information, but they're trying to be open minded. They're
trying to make sure that they make everyone feel safe
and included. But then, of course when the bigots come
(20:43):
around and learn that word and use.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
It to write and weaponize it, so we got to
change the word. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it.
I get I get it. Are you in a relationship?
Speaker 1 (20:53):
No? I love?
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Do you date?
Speaker 1 (20:57):
No? I'm not dating right now.
Speaker 3 (21:00):
Uh, there's someone who I'm in love with and we
uh we're we're not together at the moment, but I
hope we get back together again.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
And is this person in the entertainment industry or are
they like a civilian like a business But like, what
type of I'm not outing this person or whoever you're dating,
but I just meant, like, what's that, what's your type?
Speaker 3 (21:26):
He is not a he's a civilian, he's not in entertainment,
And I don't I would be perfectly fine dating somebody
in entertainment, but I do think that it's probably not
what I want. He just came back into my life
and expressed some stuff to me, and so there's a
deeper conversation. We'll have to do a part too, because okay,
(21:49):
I don't fully know, but he's he's a really accepting guy.
He doesn't seem there are some men who deal with
sort of a sense of shame because of not because
they're it's just because they're inherently just ashamed of who
they are, or that they're dating.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
Trans women, for instance.
Speaker 3 (22:05):
But it's I think it primarily has to do with
what other people think about them when they find out.
Speaker 2 (22:10):
Oh yeah, no, there's a whole layer. That's why I'm
fascinated because I spoke to someone else about this, and
it's interesting because this person was dating someone who had
just was from New England and traditional, very traditional, very
you know. It's it's people are attracted to the opposite
(22:31):
a lot a lot of times, the opposite of like
their constricting lives. So are you attracted to conservative men
like you? Like?
Speaker 1 (22:37):
What? That's really interesting?
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I I certainly have dated this person is somewhat conservative,
like socially liberal, but maybe politically.
Speaker 1 (22:50):
And financially you know, like fiscally you know, the whole thing.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
I do think, and it is interesting there does seem
to be a pattern, Like you said, we're sort of
opposites tracting in terms of that, Well, there's what's the word.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
They're not repressed stifled like because.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
You know, yeah, yeah, I think some people who are
repressed are attracted to those who are who are more free. Perhaps,
of course, I think that speaks to like what we
really want is I think in the in the at
the end of the day, a lot of people who
are repressed or who've been sort of who need freedom,
want freedom, So they're attracted to freedom and liberation.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Uh. And for people like me who are.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
Maybe experiencing that right now, what I'm looking for is
a sense of like sort of groundedness and not that
you can't be grounded and liberated or free, but you know,
people in terms of relationships, I think a lot of
a lot of times people who are more conservative and
more sort of straight laced have a closer connection to
(23:58):
this is going to be a hot take a relationship
with business and capitalism and sort of the status quo
and a mainstream sort of persona and identity that's more accepted.
And for some people who've already found personally their identity,
(24:18):
their truth, they have what they need, you know, personally,
then being connected to that sort of stability can be
attractive as well.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
Well.
Speaker 2 (24:29):
Right, you've dealt with a certain amount of turmoil, you
may not be attracted to somebody who's dealing with a
certain turmoil. Both houses can't be on fire at the
same time. Like, so it's nice to be, you know,
like a rock to someone who's like grounded in their
identity is attractive because sometimes you've had to battle with that.
So that makes that makes sense, you know save So
(24:52):
what do you think about how brands? Do you think
brands have botched this up like bud Light and Target
and then it becomes this whole big thing, and then
you have people saying negative things and was it were
they was it the execution of these brands trying to
do the right thing? And were they authentically doing the
right thing or were they trying to check the box
(25:13):
because of you know who who's watching and that they
think that they're getting attention for doing the right thing.
You know what I'm saying, is it grounded integrity or
is it because we're checking boxes and then they're watching
it because not authentic.
Speaker 3 (25:27):
I think, just speaking generally, I do think that it's
important for brands and and and large businesses to demonstrate
and be accepting of of all different types of people.
I think that uh, you know, we we as people
in the queer community are here, We have been that
(25:47):
it's not new, even though people are just finding out
about it on their TikTok or something, We've been around,
you know what I mean. And even though we didn't
always have the words and we weren't always included, like,
for instance, it was illegal for people to be gay
in public or at their job in the past, in
the sixties, in the seventies, it was punishable by jail
(26:07):
at certain times, it was punishable by being fired, and
it was legal to discriminate at certain times. And so
that doesn't say, hey, we want everybody to come out
and tell us about it. Meant that people had to
be more closeted and more secretive and you know, not
share who they are.
Speaker 1 (26:23):
But it doesn't mean that they weren't there.
Speaker 3 (26:25):
It just meant that they weren't talking about it right
Now that we have more acceptance and people are feeling
free to be who they are, what people want is
to be included in not only at their places at work,
but also in marketing and represented because representation matters. And
so in order to do that, companies need to be
inclusive in their advertising, in their casting on their TV
shows and things like that.
Speaker 1 (26:45):
And they understand that now.
Speaker 3 (26:47):
That there was a moment in time and I think
that they didn't understand that, but now I do think
they understand that.
Speaker 1 (26:52):
And up until twenty.
Speaker 3 (26:55):
Up until a five or six years ago, I think
it was easy for companies to sort of sign I
low their inclusion. They'd be I know that they would
place an ad on Super Bowl that was all about
Macho Macho for the people who watched Super Bowl and
for the people who are watching Housewives. If the gays
watching Housewives, they'll do a Housewives version as well. And
(27:15):
so like you didn't necessarily they didn't have They weren't
getting caught sort of playing all sides of the field
or all sides of the fence.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
It felt but it felt token, like a token exousment.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
But it was token. It was token. I believe it
was token, right.
Speaker 2 (27:30):
But if brands are going to come and and put
that foot forward and market towards the trans community, you
know they better do it right because you want that
to be mainstream. And so do you think that these
brands do you think it was this it was just
society not accepting it, or they botched the jaws, That's
what I'm saying, all of it, all of.
Speaker 1 (27:51):
It, all of it.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Their their decision to be inclusive and feature trans people.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
What's the right decision to do? The entire they did
it with.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
The tension was right, the execution wasn't necessarily correct, and
the after effect in terms of how they behaved and
how they reacted some.
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Of them.
Speaker 2 (28:09):
On the side of.
Speaker 3 (28:11):
It is going to be public backlash when you're dealing
with a group of people who are currently discriminated against,
when they're when you're dealing with the part of the
community who have more than five hundred anti trans laws
and policies being passed in many states in like in
eighteen states in our country. Of course, that means there's
going to be people who react in a certain way
and are like, I don't like to see that person here.
Speaker 1 (28:32):
And we saw that certainly but.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
It was billions for bad luck, like it was billions
of time.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
But we also saw that backlash with Disney, We saw
that backlash with other people, and Disney obviously stood by
It was a little bit late, but they did stand
by the queer in the trans community in a way
that but like didn't target necessarily didn't. And some of
these brands they sort of they they they made a
bold statement, but then took it back away and said, actually, no,
we're not making a bold statement. And that is where
(29:00):
than making the bold statement.
Speaker 2 (29:01):
Well, so that meant that they were trying to check
a box. But it was bullshit, is what you're saying,
Like that's what I'm saying, Like they would No.
Speaker 3 (29:07):
It's not, it's bullshit. They were trying to check the box,
and they should have checked the box. And they understand
that that box is real. But what they realize is
there's not just one box. There's a there for every box.
There's an opposite box that also is important to them.
And so it's like trying.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
To they were playing.
Speaker 1 (29:24):
They had to play, Yeah.
Speaker 3 (29:26):
We want, we want, we want vegetarians and we want
meat eaters, so we have to do a vegetarian ad
and we do a meat eater ad, and the meat
eater see the vegetarian ad, they're going to be angry.
And if the vegetarians see the meat eaters ad, they're
going to be angry. Before they were able to just
again silo their their ads and market to a certain group.
(29:47):
But now you can't because now just if there's a
person who's in this marginalized group, if the vegetarian has
ten million followers, everyone's going to find out.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:59):
Yeah, yeah, it's a very different it's a very different world. Interesting. Okay,
So let's get to Traders, which you loved and were
excited to do. And it was like someone they say,
don't meet your idols or whatever they say, like right,
because they might disappoint. So it was it sounds from
what I read that it was a disappointing experience.
Speaker 3 (30:21):
My experience was disappointing. I have to say first, I
still love the show. I am a huge fan of
the show. I really support the show. I think it's
a great a different type of kind of reality competition
show that I think is interesting. I'm a horror fan,
I'm I'm a mystery fan, and so I do love that,
but my experience, and while I do think that they
(30:44):
did a good job casting, I think that there was
a few missed opportunities in their casting and also in
the way that the show played out and the way
that the show was sort of run.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
So that impacted my experience, right, yea, So it's more.
Speaker 2 (31:05):
The production versus the cast people.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Now, I think the people that were cast, my experience was.
Speaker 1 (31:12):
It was just the entire thing.
Speaker 3 (31:15):
I encountered, someone who I had an experience that was
sort of affected by sort of a mob mentality and
the fact that I was a loaner on the show.
And had I not been a loaner on the show,
then maybe my experience would have been different. For instance,
in season one of the American version of Traders, aside
(31:37):
from the fact that there was half reality stars and half
civilians who had never done reality, there were I think
eighteen people in that cast, and there were two out
queer people of color. My season season two there were
twenty one of us and more people and less out
queer people. I was the only out queer person on
(31:57):
the show. Obviously, Alan Cumming is the host, He's not
a contestant, and so I didn't really have a lot
of people that I could identify with, and that was
this I would I realized that very quickly when people
were like, oh my, like when all the Housewives, it's
worthy thing. All the house on the four Housewives were
grouping up and they were talking about the housewives stuff.
(32:18):
Everybody else you know, there's the gamers, people were saying.
In this season, there was a lot of people who
were in like you know, the Challenge and shows like that,
were gathering and then it was just me in the middle.
Speaker 2 (32:28):
You really felt like an outsider just for.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
That because I was on Drag Race. There was no
other people from my show, even if they even if
drag Race wasn't about doing drag like, there was nobody
else on the show that.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
I shared the experience. So I was the only one.
Speaker 3 (32:42):
And people didn't really watch drag Race, and so they
just kind of had their I think, first impressions and
that's all they could go by, and they didn't really
take the time to really get to know me, and
so that that was all on the contestants.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
And the cast, and that ever did your skill in
the game of the game.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
It effected my gameplay.
Speaker 3 (33:02):
If someone had made the decision the cast didn't cast themselves,
So if someone had made the decision to put more
than one of me on there, then that would have
been allowed me to have more people to align with.
And so that's why I'm saying production obviously had a
hand and who got on the show. It's not like
the casts made their own choice of casting themselves. And
(33:25):
so that's where production I think could benefit when I
say missed opportunity. It's beneficial to the rest of the
world to see different types of people. It's beneficial to
the viewing audience to understand that there are queer people,
that there are trans people, and it's beneficial for people
who the viewers to understand that there's more than one
black person, there's more than one trans person that exists
(33:47):
in this world. And we don't always have to go
with the formula of twenty two white people and one
black person, twenty two straight people and one queer person,
Like why does that have to be twenty two white
people and one Asian person or one Latin person only?
Like can we have how different would the show look
(34:08):
if it was twenty two black people and one white person.
Everybody knows that that would be a different experience, So
why can't it be half and half? Or why why
can't we mix it up a little? Can there be two?
Speaker 2 (34:19):
You know right right? You felt like it?
Speaker 1 (34:23):
What?
Speaker 2 (34:23):
Yeah, you felt like an outsider and you were at
a disadvantage.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Yeah, I was an outsider.
Speaker 3 (34:28):
And the show relies on, as many shows do, first impressions,
And so first impressions have a lot to do with
what you already think. If you don't know someone who
comes in and they're from another country or of a
different race, and you don't really have a lot of
experience with these types of people, or someone who's queer,
(34:48):
or someone who's this or that, and you don't understand,
you don't really connect with that, or you don't know
much about that person and that individual you haven't had
a chance to get to know them as a person,
have a lot of conversation with them. You're going to
have to go go buy whatever you know about that
group when you were growing up, You know what I mean?
If I had a really terrible experience with a farmer
(35:09):
when I was growing up, and and and it was
a horrible experience, then the next time I meet a farmer,
I'm going to think of that horrible experience, and I'm
going to treat them the way that I would treat
them given that experience. Now, if I get to meet
a new farmer who's completely different and I have a
wonderful experience, then it can start to change. But if
(35:30):
I vote that farmer out immediately because I'm like, oh,
I know farmers, I don't want to I don't even
even know this person's name by then what are we learning?
Speaker 1 (35:39):
Right?
Speaker 2 (35:39):
Right, right, all right, right that? But you're assuming that
the show wants to you know, here's what's interesting. This
is where the line is. You're assuming that the show
wants to take on that responsibility. And it's funny because
they don't. Right well, because and that's what you're trying
to change or just that's what you're trying to discuss.
(35:59):
The line and the question is whether or not a
reality show should reflect just reality like and then who's deciding. So,
let's say to take off Republicans, which is a big,
big criticism by the way of Housewives that people and
the powers that be will fire people because of their
political views. I've heard that too many times that I'm
sure it is true, and I've actually heard it from
producers like, oh, this person you know, voted for Trump,
(36:23):
and so they and they don't like their views, so
they want to fire them from the show. It's a
real thing. It's a real thing on several Housewives shows.
Should a reality show reflect reality or should a reality
show reflect what should be?
Speaker 3 (36:38):
To answer that question, the answer to that question probably
relies on is your what is the impact that you
want your show to make? Who do you want to
watch a show? I agree, want to accept the show,
and what message do you want to send? Statistically, statistically,
for my situation, there's more queer people and black people,
definitely more queer people in terms of statistically and percentage
(37:02):
wise in this country than than the odds of one
out of twenty one. They're you know generally, oh yes, good,
good point, and so that's less. That's not reality. If
we're going by like a cross section of who's out
and who you know, it's a lot more. It's actually like,
you know, two out of ten adults would identify as
(37:23):
LGBT and so.
Speaker 2 (37:26):
Well, the question is the responsibility falls on this multi
billion dollar public company to do that. It's just interesting
when you have like you know, say you have like
one of the housewive shows, the New York house Wives,
let's just say, and then you decide you're going to
put the three Upper east Side white women and you're
going to have three black women and one trans person
(37:50):
on the show, when their initial mandate was that it
has to be people that are really friends. So now
it's not even like like Ramona and Ebony were not friends,
and this show tried to like put them together to
be friends, and then the audience is like, wait, this
isn't real. So those are interesting.
Speaker 1 (38:11):
Yeah, it's so.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Nuanced, but yeah, but you are a composition show.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
Yeah, show, it's not even friends, so so there's less
of a reason to kind.
Speaker 2 (38:21):
Of you know, no, yeah, you could cast anybody you want.
Speaker 3 (38:23):
But even in the Housewives sort of uh examples. The
key or the kicker is the business of it all.
When when we're trying to make money, when we're trying
to make money from the show with advertising and different things,
then we needed to be as as appeal to as
many people as possible. We want the Upper west Side,
(38:45):
Upper east Side white women, but we also want people
who are in Brooklyn who like, we want everyone to
watch it, and that's where where they have to figure
out how they're going to balance it because they know
that the people from Brooklyn, or the people from the
South or the people from this aren't going to watch
just one group that's not like them, and vice versa.
The people from the Upper East Side are not necessarily
watching a show about a bunch of black folks from Brooklyn,
(39:07):
and so they have to find a way to balance it.
And that's where it's maybe inauthentic, but you know, there
are those pockets where it really does mix.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
You know, I guess yes, no, and you.
Speaker 2 (39:17):
Have to So what is I never heard the term
dead name?
Speaker 3 (39:23):
Dead name is a term uh that's used by people
in the queer community to uh. To dead name refers
to someone's a word or a name, a name that
someone that is associated with someone previously.
Speaker 1 (39:41):
In their past.
Speaker 3 (39:43):
And for for people who aren't queer, or who aren't
in the trans community, or who that maybe to that
term is new to it basically is the name that
that person was given when they were younger, when their
parents named them, for instance. But a lot of people
change their names, and so so you know, for some people,
being associated with their previous name can associate them with
(40:05):
places and people and things that give them bad memories.
For instance, yeah, someone was married and they had their
abusive partner's name when they were married. They might want
to whether they get married again or not, they might
want to change that name. And they might not want
to be referred to by that old name because it
reminds them of that abusive partner a terrible time in
(40:27):
their life, when they were depressed or when something was
terrible going wrong. And it also may say to them
it may if depending on the name, if that name
is a well known name of an abuser, you might
you're not going to want to keep that old name
as a married person, because then other people will treat
you differently and not for who you really are, you know.
Speaker 1 (40:46):
What I mean.
Speaker 3 (40:47):
When you meet someone new in life, they tell you
their name, and what do you do next? You call
them that name. You don't dig and be like, well
let me go back. You don't like, you know, get
a private investment. Really is her name really Sally? You
don't do that for the average person. When Sally comes
up to you and says I'm Sally, you call her Sally,
you know.
Speaker 1 (41:06):
And so that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 3 (41:08):
But Unfortunately, there is an effort by some to expose
trans people. Only, not married people who are formerly connected
to an abusive person, not cis gender people who have
decided to change their name for different reasons, But there's
an effort to expose trans people and sort of communicate
(41:30):
that trans people are perpetrators and are liars, and are
sneaky and are trying to be deceptive, and so people
are trying to connect that to the desire to not
be associated with a name that's harmful, a name that
reminds us of a really terrible time in our lives,
and a name that doesn't reflect who we are.
Speaker 2 (41:50):
Makes sense. Okay, so you're you act, you sing, you dance, Like,
what's your primary passion and career?
Speaker 3 (42:11):
Girl, I'm I'm I'm cursed with the passion of wanting
to do knitting and singing and dancing and politics all
at the same time, which is terrible for Riley know
who you are.
Speaker 2 (42:26):
Well, it's I think it's more terrible, is not. I
think terrible is a terrible word for it. But I think,
like for branding purposes, it's challenging because if you try
to please everybody, you please nobody. You know, what so so,
so what is the base? Like what are you working on?
But by the way, I'm I don't know how old
you are. You're younger than I am, obviously, but I'm
(42:46):
at a certain age where I really do exactly what
I want to do. So I just was in Vancouver
and did a Lifetime movie and I didn't have any
reason to do it. It doesn't have anything to do
with my brand. I did it because it was presented
to me and it was different. But from like a
let me say, rand strategic perspective. If I were in
(43:06):
my like thirties and my building phase, I might not
have done it because it's not like the path I'm on.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
I grew up as an actor and a singer, and
I remember, uh, you know, and that's musical theater is
the thing obviously Broadway, like it's been a thing forever,
acting and singing at the same time. But when it
comes to Hollywood, which is different than Broadway, right, Broadway,
it's like professional theater in New York primarily less commercial. Yeah,
(43:33):
less commercial. Hollywood is obviously extremely commercial. And so I
remember seeing actors, serious actors sort of being made fun
of for making making music, making an album you know,
or or singers being told, oh, she can't act, why
is she trying to get in this movie? You're a singer,
Stay in your own lane. And I do remember that
(43:55):
being the j Low thing and other people. I do
remember that being a thing. It's maybe still a thing,
but certainly not as much as that it was twenty
years ago. And so I think now the lanes are
opening up for people. You know, people can talk about
politics and also be a musician. I remember the Dixie
Chicks had had quite a time being told literally shut
(44:18):
up and sang, which was their film that they made
when they started speaking out politically, Whereas now people expect
actors to speak out on some of the terrible things
that are happening in the world today, and so it's
a different it's a different vibe. So in that realm,
I think I'm at the right time and right place.
(44:38):
I am an actor. I've been on Broadway, I've been
in film and TV. I do sing. I went to
school for musical theater, Broadways my passion. So having been
on Broadway, of course I love to sing. So I
love to sing, whether I'm on stage or not. I
have music that I've made and put out, and.
Speaker 2 (44:57):
So you're an entertainer activist.
Speaker 3 (45:00):
Entertainer one hundred and I don't even call myself an activist.
Of course, I've been involved in activism, but I think
an activist is someone who sort of does that primarily
and maybe even earn a living from it.
Speaker 1 (45:14):
I don't live in that.
Speaker 2 (45:16):
It's like me with philanthropy. People call me a philanthropist,
and it makes me uncomfortable, just like calling me an
author because I've written books. It's not my identity.
Speaker 3 (45:27):
Yeah, but I've certainly done those things, and you're important
to me.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
So yeah, I get people call you that because you
go and do something and then you feel.
Speaker 1 (45:35):
That then it's your responsibility.
Speaker 2 (45:37):
Yeah, yes, exactly. And it feels fraudulent too in a way.
I get that. I don't like being called a philanthropist
because it makes it just sounds like I don't like
the way it sounds, even though I do a ton
of charity. I get that. Yeay, So so nice to
talk to you and to you know, learn, I had
such a great time, really really nice.
Speaker 1 (45:55):
You're a beautiful I mean.
Speaker 3 (45:57):
You are beautiful inside and out, and I'm really thank
you so much.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And I have to say thank you.
Speaker 3 (46:03):
I know that the past couple of years have been
wild when it comes to reality TV, but I do
think that one of the big changes that has to
happen in reality TV is a little bit more accountability,
not only from networks and you know, people running the
show and behind the scenes, but just in general being
able to have more protections because reality TV is not
(46:23):
going anywhere. It's here to stay, and the people who
are on these reality shows, they are talent, They deserve
to earn money, they deserve protections, and I think they
deserve the same types of protections and considerations that actors
would on a set of a movie or any other
TV show. They are making entertainment, and people are making
(46:44):
money off of these shows in the same way that
they would make money off of sometimes more especially yeah,
off of TV and film.
Speaker 1 (46:51):
And so.
Speaker 3 (46:53):
Although it's probably not the most desired way to go
about things necessarily, I think that you have set a
precedent and I'm seeing a lot of other conversations take
place because of it.
Speaker 1 (47:03):
And I'm really grateful to you for that, because.
Speaker 3 (47:05):
I come from a reality show that I think that
the performers the talent on those shows. My original reality show,
which is drag Race, deserve you know, certain protections and
considerations as well. And I think that ultimately the brand,
the show, the health of the brand, and the integrity
of the brand will be better off if they're able
(47:25):
to make those types of considerations. And so what you've
done has set a precedent and I'm grateful for that.
Speaker 2 (47:31):
I appreciate that because it's funny because I'm hearing from
so many people that changes are being made, but no
one will stand up and say that they're making changes,
because then it indicates that they've been screwing up, you know,
and to the point of before being an activist or
a philanthropist like this isn't my cause. I'm not on
Washington marching for reality television and you know what I mean, Like,
(47:54):
that's not my I just said something and wanted to,
you know, be to support people who I didn't realize
had been exploited. And it's not the popular people that
are making a lot of money that are complaining. It's
the people that felt discarded. And I know that the
audience doesn't want their junk food taken away, and I
get that it is entertaining, and you're right, it's not
(48:16):
going anywhere, But there are a lot of things behind
the scenes that people don't really know, and it's interesting.
It's not what it seems, and no one knows what
they sign up for, like they don't they say it now.
By now, I think people kind of do because it's
been so focused on But there has been a shift
and that's great. You know, I don't need everyone who's
(48:37):
on the show is trying to protect the realm to
credit me. It's totally cool. But I appreciate you saying
that because I'm hearing that from a lot of people,
like Underground saying it's changing and thank you, but you know,
the powers that be won't say it, so it's cool. Well,
thank you so much and really great to meet you
and talk to you. Awesome, thank you, awesome, I'd have
(48:57):
a great day.
Speaker 1 (48:58):
Thank you so much, Babe,
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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