November 22, 2024 • 43 mins
Noise in your life keeps you trapped. Be free! And learn how to live honestly...Hint: It means learning to say "no" and quiet a particular kind of noise. PLUS: "Charming" is a red flag.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:12):
Hey, Brack. Okay, this is Brack Costin. I've known him.
Do you know how long we've known each other, Breck.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
It's probably been close to twenty years at this point.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
No more, because I was like thirty thirty one, maybe
even younger anyway, so easily, No, I think it's twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, yeah, I've never I've never been with time and yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I think I was like in my early thirties. All right,
So this is Breck Costin. I've known him for years
because a group of friends of mine had found this
Freedom course in LA and it was transformative for them,
and I liked the name Freedom, and I was like
at a crossroads with a relationship. Yeah, Breck, I think
it was earlier. It was like in my twenties.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, and I was.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
So that was like a long time ago, maybe almost
thirty years ago, and you could probably go back and
look at the dates. I probably stole my Freedom notebook
upstairs and I went to this like three day immersive
experience at Breck and uh learned a language a lot
of people use now that I actually know is because
of me, which we'll get into. And Breck's sort of
like oblivious to all that like commercial stuff in ways,
which I like because like he never knows how many
(01:18):
times I use his words, but I do always give
him credit, but like other people do also. So Breck
is a life coach slash non traditional therapist but not
like a doctor. And we've known each other for years
and we talk fairly regularly, and he's a great guy
and he's had a big life, and I wanted to
(01:39):
have him on here.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I think you came on years ago when I started.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
No, I never came on as podcast. We did you
when you had your talk show?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
You didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I think we did, but maybe yeah we did in
the very beginning, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Telling you you know, it's way too long now I
can't remember apparently, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Mean one hundred percent. In the very very beginning we talked.
So you're in LA and we spoke the other day,
and I thought that hopefully you'd want to come on more,
but I'll sort of drive and I wanted to just
like bring up different concepts that we've discussed over the
years that jump off the page to me, and also
that you probably don't even know that I've discussed the
(02:18):
people and have jumped off the page with them. So
like you talk about a million things, but like probably
the things you wouldn't even think would be the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, that's true. I mean, you know, people will take
away what they think is really relevant and resonates. And
I think we're, you know, as a as a coach
or just as as a person who's contributing, you're you're
always looking for different portals and different metaphors and different language, music,
anything you can that you think will get something from
your mouth to someone's ear that will be useful, right,
like digestible and people respond to you know, two different
(02:48):
different image imagery, different music, different rhythms, different metaphors. So
it's kind of figuring out what's what will translate for
each person.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So I guess we'll go with the biggest ticket item.
I was going to do charming, which we'll do after
because it really surprises people in the charming. I had
a podcast called Charming is a Red Flag and it
was it was very It had a lot of impact,
which was shocking because it really people. It spoke to
people because charming is used as something positive. But let
me just park that for one second. Okay, let's talk
about noise. Okay, many people use the term noise as
(03:20):
a result of me commercializing the term noise as a
result of learning it from you at the Freedom course,
and I took it to another level. You talked about
food noise and money noise, and different people have different
noise or like talking about someone's particularly noisy in that area.
And I wrote a book called Naturally Thin about food noise.
(03:43):
But I've seen people, I've seen on social media other
people talk about it. They don't even realize that it
came from me and that it came from you.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
So just talk. Let's talk about noise for a little bit, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So and I like that, you know, I love that.
As you said, you know, I kind of think of
myself as being the scenes and not to diminish any
other coaches or any other people who are in the
working in you know, transformational world or in a self
help world, spiritual world. But I just think the contract
really is is that you're you're a source, right, you know,
(04:15):
you're not the you know, you're not not that you
can't be the mouthpiece for what you're delivering, but you're
actually the source, and you want other people to be
able to deliver that from their own particular expression, right,
and they make it their own, they take it to
all other level. So that's always exciting for me when
you know, like as you take you know, noise and
kind of disseminate it so it becomes part of the vernacular,
(04:36):
part of the culture. Right. I like that. I like
watching that those kinds of things happen.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
They say the best relationships are the rock and the stars.
So you have many stars that you talk to, but
like you're they're the star. You're the rock, Like you're
behind the scenes and understanding.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Like any great team, you understand your position, you know,
and you play your position. And I think a lot
of times where it's conflicted and I'll get into noise.
Even from this context, I think for a lot of
people that they're they're they're so wanting to play a
position that they're just not designed for and it's and
it's just and then and I consider that to be
one of the you know, when you're trying to compete
(05:12):
where you're not competitive, it is it is a source
of suffering. Wow, it is. And people will spend years
and years and years trying to squeeze them into something
that they just weren't designed to do and so, and
that goes right into noise as well. So noise is
this very basically it's your really your internal commentary that's
good or bad. Now, this is what people think, they oh,
(05:33):
good noise is good. I'm saying no, no good noise.
You're trying to keep around. Bad noise you're trying to
get rid of. So it has you either way. It
holds you hostage either way.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So you're saying, like, the absence of noise is real
true piece. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, that's where freedom and peace is right. And if
you look at when you're the most brilliant, well you're
when you look at where your essence is being fully expressed,
and it's the essential you. It's when there's no noise.
So that's a singer singing in front of the sea
thousand people and they're not trying to remember their lyrics.
They're not remembering it. They're connected to the audience. They're
expressing themselves there. They don't have like oh man, I'm
(06:08):
crushing it or I'm you know, or this when badly.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Meaning like even if it's family noise and you're managing it,
you're still having to deal with that. You're thinking about
it positive, like I got it under control. That's noisy too,
and bad noises.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, so management, the management of something is even more.
I kind of think of this as like a feral tiger, Like,
you know, your noise can be running rampant and just
eating anything that's on the African plane, right, feral, and
then when it comes up with a solution to a problem, Okay,
I'll manage this. I'll juste question this animal, this ferocious animal,
and that just as bad. Right. It's literally like you,
(06:44):
this is a Siegfried and Roy of noise. Is they
know how to work with white tigers, you know they
they made millions of dollars working with with this, you know.
So it's a it's understanding. It's understanding how to work
with you know, your own you know animal. I'll talk
about survivally noise in that regard as well, but it
really is understanding that when you are truly there is
(07:05):
when there's no noise. So that's that's when you, like,
in this conversation that we're having, if you and I
were going, God, I hope this is going well. I
wonder if this is going all right or our internal
dialogue was like, I'm not sure what to say. It's noisy, Yeah,
it'd be like a noise.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Well, that's funny because in the book Naturally Thin, the
way that I took it to the next level, which
I forgot until this exact moment, is I said that
with people with food, they wanted to turn their noise
into a voice, like you're having just a conversation. I'm
about to have a meal, and this what I'm gonna
have versus I was bad, I was good. I ate
so much so I have to beat myself up and
eat more or I have to eat nothing like that's managing.
(07:42):
That's noisy, but just being like okay, chocolate I wanted,
and I'm you know, next, I'm doing this like have
it be like a voice, which to me seemed calmer.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well it's not only calmer, but you know it's I'd
see this in phases ethany where you kind of like
are first of all recognizing it's coming out of the eathers.
You're recognizing it as an internal dialogue rather that's just
your personality or that's just the way it is. So
you're seeing some distinction between oh, this isn't me, this
is the noise in my head. But most people associate
(08:13):
the noise in their head with them. And when you
were your essential you, there's no noise, and it's a
strange phenomenon, like, oh, when I'm truly being myself, it's
when there's no noise that's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
That's the most meditative state, is being.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Just just there, right, yeah. So, and I think in
a world attempting that right to get to that. So,
I call that the thing you just mentioned, the cherry
pie I made it up as a cherry pye conflict.
And that is like, okay, you got to you got
to lunch, you got to dinner. And the waiter says, okay,
would you like dessert and says with a cherry pie?
(08:47):
Person goes no, you know, no, I'm not going to
have any cherry pie, and so and and he goes
ask again, do you want any cherry pie? And verse
says no, I don't want a cherry pie. And so
throughout the day you're like, hey, you know I didn't
eat that cherry pie. I didn't needt the cherry pie
at all. You know, you didn't have the cherry pie.
But you're still being dominated by cherry pie, when whether
you ate it or not.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
You should have just had yeah, take up by a
couple of bites of it. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Whether you ate it or not. That's noisy yet and
that's what noise looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, also, I want to tell everyone that and we
can move to something else because I think they maybe
get it. But like that when Breck introduced it to me,
because we're talking about thirty years ago. But I have
a crazy memory for the stuff. You've taught so many
different things and talked about so many different things. But
I want to like take people back to what I
learned that He talked about how each person has different
(09:35):
Someone could have religion, noise, food, noise, money, noise, age, noise, vanity, noise,
like it could be anything. It could be all the
seven deadly sins. It's just you could be noisy about something.
It could be it could be anything, right, Like, it
could be the Emperor has no clothes or I'm not
I'm even someone has billion dollars. They could still think
they're gonna lose it all.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Oh no, no, that happens. I mean, have a lot
of clients just like you know, who have you know,
story amount of money, and there they can be the
most terrified.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Okay, so that that's overall. Noise can be different for
every single person.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
But the goal It doesn't mean that noise doesn't produce.
It doesn't mean that it can't produce, meaning like you
can make a ton of money in a certain area. Right.
But the thing is is that it mostly where you
have no noise is where you're the most created, most
most of alved, most accomplished, most you know, most evolutionary. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, that's interesting, Okay, So this is why that's interesting
to me because usually the thing that the person's most
obsessed with, you've called that their plates of wounding, the
thing that they're thinking about the most, is the thing
that isn't coming naturally to them. And I also think
that like between sleep and wake is when all my
best ideas come, and when I'm the most relaxed, is
(10:46):
when my amazing like ideas they just come to solve
a problem that I've had forever.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And that's quiet, it's literally quiet.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, yeah, you can't you can't solve you know, certainly,
you know you can can't be creative or innovative or
generative when fear or shame is dominating, right, It's it's
a it's a threat, right, So why I say it
can it can produce? It means that someone can can
start like they're there, can start start their mote or
(11:17):
their engine. In terms of I don't want to be
like that. I'm going to change my circumstances. I'm going
to drive something, right. So, like the difference between ambition
and invention is you can start something from a place
of noise, right, you can. It can kick off from
place like I don't want to be like my dad.
I don't want to be like my mom, and I
don't want to live like this. I want to do
something from a reactive place. But in order for it
(11:39):
to fulfill and move, it's got to move into an
evolutionary creative place where it's not driven drop driven from
that that source. So we're all we're always looking at
at you know, what is it that? What is it
that has us? And what is it that we have right?
And what is holding us hostage? And what do I
actually have? So today you know, or just riddled with anxiety, right,
(12:02):
And anxiety is I mean just kind of globally anxiety
is trying to get control of something of no control
over right, and so people come up with tons of
solutions to that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Like you're you're saying, because you talk about this with
charm too, anxiety has us and you say that charm
has people too, Like, so go into like how these
things are having us, Like we're going to that because
I think that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Most people don't say that.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay, so when I say someone can be productive, I'm
saying that they don't know that. People don't distinguish out enough.
You know, what is it, you know where they have
noise and no noise, so it just looks like, oh,
I if that I'm being manic here, and I'm going, well, no,
you're actually not being manic there. You know here you're
pretty freed up. Here you're manic and you're collapsing both
(12:52):
of those those things. So someone could be have their
craft just to kind of finish that up. Their craft
could be straordinary, like they be able to play the
guitar brilliantly. They can do that, but their career is noisy,
so they never fulfill in their career. But they could
be the best, the best guitarist in the world, and
people understand, what if I'm really great at this, How
come this isn't fulfilling? And some it could be mediocre
(13:15):
in their craft, but really freed up in their career, right,
meaning they have all this room to make mistakes, to fail,
to lose, to move right. And so you know, watching,
you know, watching where things produce and how they produce,
you know, is my entire kind of work, right, Like
what is what is it that has someone to be effective,
you know in a particular way. So the question that
(13:38):
you're asking is, I consider identities. I look at identities,
and the identity is a way you want to be
seen or a way you do not want to be seen. Right,
So I want to I might want to be seen
as smart. I can't be seen as stupid. I want
to be seen as a tractor. I can't be seen
as ugly. I obn to see this as powerful. They
can't be seen as weak.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I feel like you used to call that image. Also,
is that you're saying that's the same.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Well I did. It was it was a It may
had a much broader context, okay, right, but the identity
is very specific. You know. We walk around, you know,
wanting to be seen in a particular way. And if
we're not seen in a particular way, we get reactive, threatened, disconsolate,
something like that. So I always consider that identities have you,
(14:22):
qualities and characteristics you have. So this is there to
your point about Charmin. So you could have an identity
of loyal like you need to be seen as a
loyal person. That's an identity, right, So you're loyal to
a fault, steal, stay in situations long after you should,
you don't get out fast enough. You ally yourself to
(14:42):
things you shouldn't because you've got a dysfunction, so you're
not seeing things correctly. It's loyal to a fault is problematic.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yep, agreed. And that's almost like the obligation to a fault.
When people constantly have to go, they always have to
show up, it feels disingenuous, like they're doing it to
check the box.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So with regards to loyalty as a characteristic equality, that's
different than an identity. I mean you have loyalty, Loyalty
doesn't have you. So you can be loyal to the
appropriate situations, you can exit situations appropriately, and you can
be disloyal if you have loyal I mean I'm not
going to be loyal to someone who's saying, you know,
(15:20):
an asshole or someone who's doing this. Right, But you
can't be disloyal if loyalty to a fault has you.
So that is true for everything. So it could be
so everything to be positive or negative depending on the context.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, so talk about obligation, because everybody that's listening is
doing a bunch of things they don't actually want to
be doing. And I do many things for other people,
but I don't do anything anywhere that I don't want
to do.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And I think that's jarring, and I.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's revolution that's this almost is like you now we're
talking kind of like graduate school in terms of self help,
just because it really is such a revolutionary concept because
it looks completely selfish. Yes, because someone says, but what
looks what looks one way to the culture might be
entirely different to what's actually true. Right. So if someone
(16:30):
is saying, oh, you you know, you never do anything,
you know, obligatorily, and I go and I say, yeah,
I don't, and they go, well, that's just completely selfish.
I go, well, actually know it's selfless because who wants
someone around who's doing something as they're a pain in
the ass. They're doing it for you. They're sanctimonious about it,
they're self righteous about it, and that's not yielding anything.
(16:50):
It's no benefit to any right.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't like when people count who gave a gift
to give a gift back. I don't want any gifts.
I have one, no gifts. Gifts giving is literally my
love language. I don't want any because I'm not giving
a gift because I want something back or because I
got something. They have nothing to do with each other,
and it irritates me when I hear someone, well, can
you believe they came to the wedding and they only
did whatever?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Who gives a shit that?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
So?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
I hate that shit. I hate counting. That's the opposite
of being a good person.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
An obligation can can just like you said that, it
can trans can translate to many many situations. It can
go to It can go to gift giving. It can
go to emotional context like I love you. I didn't
hear it back, right, You're obligated to say it back,
so it.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Can be I agree with that too, that's so ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It can be on emotional context, it can be in
a physical context. Obligation can translate to many many different situations.
So obligation, you know, to live a life obligation free, right,
meaning you know, I'm only going to do things that
I want to do, and I'm only going to do
things that I say I'm gonna do or I'm not
going to do them, right, And you know, like when
(18:03):
someone goes, well, what if your wife asks you to
do something to me, I go, that's usually my pleasure.
You know, I want to do something for it.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
It's not an obligation, right, right, but you may not
totally want to do that thing, but you want to
do like.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
But you want to do that for them because you
know it'll.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Like yess what I'm saying, yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So that's for people get stuck. And you know, in
my marriage, I mean, I think it's been really generous
in that way. Like if I say I don't want
to do exit like something simple like Jane goes, oh,
the dishes are the in the sink? Yeah, I said
I didn't want to do them. She goes, Okay, so
it's it's gonna be as simple as that, and then
they get done you know down the road right where
(18:39):
it's kind of something you want to do, but it's
like literally simple.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Well no if she lets that go a couple of
times and it is like says to you like it
would be nice if you did them, but doesn't give
you damage.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Next time you might want to do them.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
It's kind of like this weekend, I was with someone
that I care about and I was exhausted, and I
just I am always activated, but I'm when I do
a lot of things that involve other people, I really
need to restore. And it could be like organizing sweaters,
or like looking at lip gloss or just staring at
the TV.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I just need to be.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Alone ish, or like wandering in a house with someone
else there, but not like a you know, in an
obligation mode. Yes, so this person is an extrovert and
I'm more of an introvert. And they said, my cousin's
in town and I was in the Hamptons, and do
you want to go for lunch with him? Now? I
really didn't want to go, but I really care about
this person who's doing a lot of things for me
and and really caring. And I said, I first just
(19:32):
want to know if you care if I go or not,
Like I just want to know where you stand with it.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that was the question. I was to say, is
this important to you that I go?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Like do you care? Like how much?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
On a one to ten because all of sudden you're
not communicating and you just say yes and then you
resent it or you say no and they resent that
you said no, even though they didn't really care.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
But it was the way that it was discussed.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I said, listen, you, if it's really important to you,
then we should discuss that. I wasn't even ready to
go yet. I just was ready to say, if it's
really important, you should discuss that. I on my own
vacuum don't want to go, but like, if it's really
important to you, because as a family member, that's a discussion.
And then he was like it's really not and I
was like, okay, great, I really don't want to go.
And then later he was gone for like three hours
(20:12):
and he was worried that it was too long, and
that became a I'm like, no, like not to make
you feel bad. You could go for five hours like
I you know, I want eventually I want you to
come back and not be But it's like that kind
of stuff. It like frees you up because you could
really go on the wrong road. You could go and
resent it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
First of all, you're always looking to maintain like you're
now talking relationships, so you're talking, so you always are
looking to maintain the affinity of the connection, the love
connection and the relationship. That's kind of like the intention, right,
and in between fights and disagreements and you don't feel
appreciated or whatever people's issues are, you know, that can
(20:50):
be that can that can get threatened that affinity, right,
So those kinds of conversations of like, well is this
important to you? No, it's not, okay, then I'm not
going to go, and it maintains the affinity in the
relationship rather than I'm just not going right.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
No, you're right, or like going and resenting. I do
ask a lot if something's important, Because someone said to
me years ago, Dennis, who you knew, He said, if
it's important to you, it's important to me. He didn't
act that way, but I liked the sentence.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I do too, and I like and I like that too.
So it's obligation. So you live a life obligation free, right,
So you take away the victim. That's really what you're doing,
because a victim is somewhere something or someone.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Smarter like the marthing, or someone's.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Doing something to you. You take away the victim in
the conversation, right, and then we so get into those
habits of acting like victims and situations and and living
life implication free. So obligation and implication free are like
implication free means you know what it means about you.
If I do this, I'm a good person. If I
don't do this, I'm a bad person. Right, And people
live mostly obligatorily.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
No, they want and they check the butt, they want
the scorecard. It's counting, which is the opposite of a
good relationship, is counting anything.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, you're looking to live a life you know, obligation free,
implication free, and you're more generous, you're more creative, you're
more connected, you're more communication and you have less noise
in your head.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Bravo.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So we've accomplished. Okay, let's get into charm. So tell
me about charming. I'm eating a little bite of my
snack because I have very breafacet let's talk about charming.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So you know, when someone says and usually charm is
associated with you know, men or masculine. Let's call it
that way, you know, can take it.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Wow, yeah, right, so explain that.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah. So you know, we don't usually say the woman's charming.
We will use a different term for that. You know, oh, god,
she's really gracious, or she's really soak, you know, sweet,
like all kinds of different things. But that's associated culturally
with a man, right, and it's usually associated in a
really favorable way. Right now. The thing about charm is
(22:50):
that it's and people that people don't like this. But
I considered myself quite charming, you know, early on, so
I figured I can get away with talking about this,
right even I've got you know, it's like someone like
who's who's If you've got the wound, you can really
talk about the wound, right.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So you probably were really charming. That's why you know
about it so well? Yeah, because you would just guys,
Breck was like a hotshot data models, party like a
rock star, came from money, trust, fun like big swinging dick.
The whole thing, had a life, life humbled you. You
probably were a charming motherfucker with that money and the
(23:27):
models and the looks and all that shit in New
York City partying in La got it?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Okay? Yeah, so I mean, so I feel like I
have a strong sense of this right now. You can
also have a strong sense of how, you know, how
the narcissistic wound that's associated with charming, right which is
very you know, it's a it's a painful thing for
people to say, but that's what it is. Why is it?
Because it if you're a man who's incredibly charming, you
(23:53):
are you create an addiction of meeting that kind of
attention and that kind of feedback. Do you know you
go to a party, you go to this and something
has to be said about you.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Okay, So I want to tell everybody because this was
I talked about this. It's the guy who sometimes not you,
but sometimes the charming is the hey, Dan, how's your
golf game? And like real Gregario is then at home
like treating his wife like shit or I've had that scenario.
I've also had this scenario where the guy's like the bro,
real bro, real friend, you know, just hugging everybody and
(24:24):
good looking and everybody likes him and girls like it,
and he's a life of the party and like the
peacock like and you're right, because it is an addiction.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
They just go to it right away. It works so well,
and go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
So it becomes really your go to in as a man,
and that's and you and it gets narrowed down so
that becomes mostly your entire or you're organized around when
you're driven by, you know, getting feedback for how charming
you are needing to seduce all the time, whether it's
men or women. You're just you're like an animal and
is constantly generating that.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You're singing the karaoke song, you're doing the shots, You're
a charming, the mom you got, everybody loves you.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Whatever's required. If what's required is be completely quiet, what's
required to be totally entertaining, what's required to be this,
You're you're you're managing whatever you need to do to
get that feedback. Wow, so and and it and it
becomes an addiction like anything else. That's why age can
be really challenging for people as they you know, as
(25:24):
they fall and they don't have the same skills, they
don't do the same resources that they had. So what
I all say to women, and women will say this
right as well, is if you see someone who's particularly charming,
run for the hills.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I literally called the podcast charming is a red flag.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, so run for the hills because in two years
you're gonna hate this God, You're gonna hate, You're gonna go,
I'm gonna kill this guy.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
The very thing that you found so fascinating that the stick,
this bit is gonna make you sick, it.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Is, and in two years you're gonna be out of
your mind. Right. So I say I say this to
women when women go, you know, I'm marrying my yoga instructor.
I go. Just because he can put his you know,
legs around his head doesn't mean that he's got emotional flexibility.
Don't confuse those two, right. I'm not saying he doesn't.
I'm saying that those are different phenomenas. There's a different
photomen beeing spiritual evolution, creative evolution, emotional evolution, right, and
(26:21):
these things so a lot of times, and that can
be a highly seductive thing for you know, and and
dating charms. So I'm saying most men, other men who
so who have integrity, you know, a sense of themselves
and a sense of you know, kind of a moral
compass in terms of who they are and what they are,
and they don't need all that feedback. They have a
(26:42):
stronger sense themselves, they can have charm. So meaning you
can have charm from a context of integrity, right, But
if charm is your whole story, that's where it's problematic.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
It's owning you, it's wearing you.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, it's it's what it has you your dow'n have it.
So it doesn't mean you can have charm. It just can't.
It's got to be like anything. You've got to be
able to pick it up and put it down and
use it, and it's got to be more more mobile
in play in all that way. And most men who
have integrity and have a great deal of respect dismiss charm.
They'll see other men and they'll they'll dismiss it because
(27:17):
they can smell like it's it's self centered, it's narcissistic,
it's it's superficial, it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Have enough weight love it wow.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And so you've got to be interested. And this is
always the game, you know, for me, loss is always
the game that you're willing to lose what you considered
maybe your most important asset for the possibility of your
own evolution.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Well, it's funny you say that, because the way I
think of it is things that you're good for and
things that are good for you. So I used to
remember friends of our Shannon, et cetera. I used to
produce events, large scale events, multimillion dollar events, the Grammy's,
the Emmys, on the Rock, Alcatraz. No one was ever
better at it than I was. No one you could
ask the woman who ran all the events at Disney.
(27:59):
My bodyline was perfect, my P and L sheet, I
missed not a detail I didn't. I picked up every floral,
like every chair, like.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
I mean, yeah, that makes that make perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Because I'm sick like so. But I was great for it.
It wasn't great for me. So I had to be
like you know, and that's what goes on in my
work every day. Things that I'm good at, and my
whole entire team relies on me for all the details
in the detail of every video and every caption and
all the weeds because I'm amazing at them, but they're
not good for me. And it's like a discipline for
the people around me. Like you guys cannot come to
(28:31):
Mommy for every single question otherwise I cannot do what
I need to do in my business.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
It's not good for me.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
So that's sort of my like cross to bear is
what I'm good for, but what's not good for me?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, and those are those are and there they can
be very different, right they can. They can be very
very different. So, and that's also understanding what's bankrupt, you
know as it because because you can be highly productive
and have no sense of that illution. Yes, do you
know what I mean? Like you know? I mean you can,
you can make a billion dollars, you can do all
kinds of things, and yet your sense of self, your development,
(29:07):
you know, you're still maintaining the same You're still maintaining
the same way of being because.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
You do the same exercise at the gym every time.
My inclination is to solve the problem, is to tell
you I'm dealing with the situation with this guy or
with Brin's school, or with work, and go attack and
produce the problem and use it like a relief effort
and solve it. But I'm not growing, I'm a feeling.
I'm not learning. I just know how to like wrap
it up. And so Milin to my therapist, who you've met,
will be like now she's not like a how do
(29:34):
you feel? But she doesn't really care about me, giving
her like the news, sports and weather. She wants to
like get to like what's going on about it?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, like what what is the what is the thing
that you're that you have kind of have to lose
in order to gain. Now, people think that they're going
to lose their their essential asset, and I'm going, no,
that's an illusion that the sense the essential asset just
moves into the foundation of your life. It's no longer
in the foreground, right, but you have to have that
noise back to noise. That noise in your head is
(30:03):
like if you if you introduce a new possibility something
and I don't care who, it's an emotional possibility, like
you know, I want to be I want to I
want to be on time I don't know, or I
want to I want to complete things. I want to
when I say I'm going to start a complete whatever
you introduce or I want to be more compassionate. Whatever
you might introduce, you also introduce because you wouldn't be
(30:24):
introducing that if it was something that you didn't have.
You're introducing it because it's something you don't have that
you're wanting, right, And so if you're introducing that you're
also introducing the loss, the loss of well, wait me,
I won't I won't be able to produce over here,
or I won't be effective over here, or this might
you know, fall apart. So that's the fear. That's why
(30:45):
when someone says, well, most people don't change, they're not wrong,
just because what it requires to change is huge.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
You mean, like, I'm stopping drinking, so I'm not gonna
be the life of the party anymore. I'm overweight, I'm
losing weight. I'm not going to be jovial exactly. Yeah,
there's that Friends, that episode about fun and Bob.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I think it's fun Bobby Worth, right, Oh god, Bobby's
coming over, you know, because he is an alcoholic and
he was hysterical and now and he's no longer drinking
and he's not fun anymore, right, Which is not accurate.
It's not you know, lots of people have been sober
for years who are incredibly entertaining and great and creative
at all and more productive than ever. So it's not
a function of that, but it is a function of
(31:23):
not being afraid to lose. And I think and I
look at that as one of the major themes of
evolution right that you're willing in some area to you know,
to lose in a powerful, profound way.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Okay, so now I have two little things.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
So the two things I want to talk about are
something you said recently about people don't come batteries are
not included the way that we start like catastrophizing and
thinking about something. But they're not this, but they're this,
whe they're different than the last person. And I was
with and like, and you've said, like battery, people don't
come with batteries. That's one concept, and then the other
one is like I don't think this is just like
a bit. But when I was talking to a writer
(32:11):
who works for Fortune magazine last night, this woman Diane Brady,
and she was talking really intimately about the difference between
extroverts and introverts as it pertains to being a CEO,
and she was like, I'm an extrovert. She knew who
she was, and she was like, the pandemic killed me.
I was like wanting to like go talk to like
essential essential worker.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, she was like I wanted to walk out. And
for me, I was like I was a in a
like a blanket. I extended the pandemic two years by
that behavior like it gave me license to keep using
it as an excuse to never leave the house. So
and then she was talking about how entrepreneurs introverts are
very good entrepreneurs because they get really deep and granular
(32:54):
and extroverts don't have have more difficult time focusing. They
may be good at knowing a lot of different things,
maybe about the market, about so many different companies and
different topics, but they don't they have a difficulty focusing.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I think that's a really use just just to put
some you know, parentheses around it. I think that's I
think it's really astute in terms of introverts and extroverts
that if you look at CEO, someone who's doing all
the operations and managing all those operations and managing people, yeah,
you know, they're mostly extroverts. They have that ability visionaries,
(33:27):
you know, founders, entrepreneurs, they're more introverted. They're like, you know,
that's a very that's a that's more of a thing.
They wouldn't be running and managing a bunch of people.
So that's why when I when I look at you know,
like when Elon Musk kind of took over Twitter, I
management is not his you know, he's an inventor, right, and.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
What are you? I'm totally an introvert and people are
shocked by that, but I can't. I hate managing people
from the.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
So I'm the same way. I'm a complete introvert. Okay, interesting,
I'm a complete and everybody says, so I'm much more
like the pandemic. I thrived in the pandemic and and
zoom became everything. So everybody, even I always say, an
act of love is that you don't invite me anywhere, right,
so you cancel on me, right, So so all of
(34:15):
those that's that's but being creative, generative, you know, collaborative
and making something happen, those that's you know, that's where
I thrive. And you don't want me running your company.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
But this woman said that that that they draw upon
each other like. Well, It's interesting though, because I find
that people. I've had people gravitate towards me because of
my like the light and the way that I am,
like my passion, which isn't about being an extrovert, and
(34:47):
sometimes they'll like dim my light as a result. It's
kind of a different thing. But I'm thinking to who
is attracted to who introverts are attracted to extroverts or
extroverts because there are two extroverts are not the best combination, right,
because you can't focus.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Well first, well, you don't necessarily want to, you know
when when you're just back to the whole idea of
knowing your position, which you kind of started with, like yeah,
and knowing what your contribution is and people wanting to
be what they're not. Right, you know, this is really
understanding you know how you where you fully express yourself
and what does that look like? And just like in
(35:20):
a relationship, if if you have two people of the
same issues, you know that's problematic and you know, meaning
like oh we're going to run out of money, Yeah,
we're going to die. You don't want those two things
or like god, look out fat i am, look out,
look at my butt. You don't want both those all
those issues colliding. You want them missing. And that's the
same with assets. When you build a team, you know,
the CEO is not the is not the CTO, and
(35:44):
the CTO is not the CEO, and the founders and
the visionaries not and they're all they're all and building
a profound championship team is understanding each person playing their
position perfectly and they intersect.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, you could be in the I've had someone who's
seems who's in the wrong seat, but and they're great
in the right seat.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Like absolutely, just a little exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Okay, you could have someone who seems terrible because they're
in the wrong fucking seat. But if they're loyal and
seems smart enough, you should play musical chairs. And what's
interesting is that. So I'm at this Fortune event last night.
I'm sitting at the table with a woman very high
up at General Motors and another and we're next to uh,
Josh Kushner, uh, and the guy who is the CEO,
(36:27):
Sebastian of hoult Renfrew, like major people. And this woman
Diane Brady next to me, who had an interesting conversation
with journalists and she's at Fortune. Now that's her, that's her.
She's the one who said it. But to be honest,
I have never heard anyone use it in human resources
and in staffing and in executive searches. And they should,
like you're not allowed to ask someone how old they are,
(36:48):
but you should be you should actually do the emotionally
intelligent conversation in staffing and ask are you an introvise?
This is no wrong answer, but here's the here's the quiz,
or give them the quiz, like it's like an IQ
quiz because it's true, Like I have been in relationships
with introverts many times because I'm attracted to someone similar
to me because they're gonna say I don't want to
go out either.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
But it's bad for me.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
It's bad for me, and I haven't realized that because
it's like I get into like sort of like there's
like a film on us.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
It's like stale.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Understanding, you know, understanding and the one hundred of nuances
that go to those kind of headlines intovert an extrovert
r because underneath those two things are tons of nuances that, yeah,
that someone should use this as some sort of scrutiny
in terms of discerning like, well, is this the person
the right position? I mean, I'm doing that all day long.
In terms of subtle pivot, it's like just a little
(37:37):
subtle pivot and changes is a game changer with that
person or a dramatic pivot, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
But I think in this case the label is important
because I don't think that the average person if I
were applying for a job, they would not think that
I was an introvert.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
No, no, no, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have no idea.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
You too, if someone were hiring you, Brick, they.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Would no, no, no, absolutely right, So.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
They might think you could manage a bunch of people.
They might think you could be the head. You know.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You know what I mean, I've done that. When I'm
pitching something that I really want you to take over this,
I go, that's a lesson you want me doing exactly,
And I say that directly. You know, that's not that
I'm not I'm not doing that, right, But that's because
also you won't do obligation. Yes, so, but I was
saying about Bethane. When you're seeing being attracted to your light,
that is what That's what someone who's an entrepreneur, visionary,
(38:26):
you know, someone who like you. People know that shit's
going to happen over there. This is something, this is
you know, there's something creative, something innovative, something will happen
that will translate into you know, into the world. Right,
So I think people know that, right.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And I get vampired and I don't even realize it is.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
And then you need to know who then you need
to know like who are you going to allow do
that because they have to be complementary in terms of
feeding you as much as you feed that. Right, it's
a it's that's part of the dance.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And by the way, that's a thing that's another construct
that like could be a chapter in a book that
I never have thought about that and this age I've
never thought about that I'm gonna draw certain people, but
if they're if we're not gonna be playing tennis where
I'm playing with a better tennis player and they're just
gonna draw off of me, but I'm not getting anything positive.
It's gonna kill me. And it's happened like it actually
(39:19):
you feel like you're just light is dimming. It's actually
happened to me.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's wild and that I mean, I'm possibly I don't
know if it's actually, you know, completely true. But that's
an age thing also where you then know that because
mostly you're just gonna you're gonna draw in everything, because
that's what the light does. It'll draw in all kinds
of things. And then the ability to discern who you
actually collaborate with, who you're with, what you're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Mark, That's exactly my biggest problem. Literally, access is my
number one problem. Everyone around me. We have to go
on an access diet.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Two things.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Having too many ideas is number one. But access it's insane.
Like I'll talk, I'll be giving my phone number to
the person that's bringing the ice bucket to the table
because they're like fun and they were so good at it,
like and people around me, but then to everybody in
business and everybody in charity and people around me like, stop,
we're on an access you can't know too much.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, And I think I do think that's a function
of a of age and wisdom where you just have
the ability to discern and that and that you start doing.
It's like one action impacts one hundred actions rather than
a hundred actions impact one hundred actions. Right, you really
use your leverage and your understanding and your discernment and
you and you honor the you know your capacity and
(40:31):
what you have to offer. I mean, I'm saying that
all the time. Like, you know, I remember years ago.
It's a it's a crazy story, but I remember this
person came to me and I don't know they were
kind of they were a client but they said, I
really want to be I really want to be friends
with you, Breck correct, Like, I said, what are you seven?
It's an interesting thing like seven year olds? You never
I said, He goes, I really want to be friends
(40:51):
with you. And I said, well, I can either tell
you the truth or nor your phone call. Which one
do you want?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Right?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And he said, okay, tell me the truth. I go,
I would never be friends with you, and he said
what I said, you understand my friendships are based on
collaborative things. That doesn't mean emergencies don't happen. That doesn't
mean we're not there for each other. It means that
you know, we're not there's no draining of each other.
And I said, you would be draining the hell out
of me, right, And they said there'd be not enough
(41:19):
that you could bring that would actually, you know, change that.
So why don't you just keep coming to me until
you can be your own best friend? Okay? I like
that's so it's understanding, you know that, not from an
egotistical place. It's more from really understanding.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And so it's actually selfless because you're being honest and.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
It's useful for him. Yeah, it's useful. Hand and to
see like, really, well, what is it about me that's
doing that?
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Right?
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Where's the neediness in me that's you know, and that's
that's telling complete Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah, So I could talk to Breck forever and I'm
like exasperated today. I'm a little manic because there's so
many topics that I want to get you guys in
two with him, and next time there'll be ten more.
So I'm reminding myself the next time, I want to
talk about intervening in our own behavior. And also the
break has said batteries not including batteries are not included
in people like how we expect to either fix someone
(42:11):
or them to be everything or just start criticizing what
they are today when they're a fully formed human being
when you meet them, and also catastrophizing.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
So I want to talk to you about a lot
of things.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
It's too many them. Also just to add, I mean,
there's so many things you're right that can go on forever.
And that's the whole nature of just when we're talking
about partnerships or relationships, most people commit to their expectations,
they don't really commit to the to the actual person.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
They don't really Okay, all right, so that we're going
to get into that. All right, So we got to
do this more. I could go for days, but you
got to get off.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
All right, all right, great talking, all right, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
But beyond by Breck
Speaker 2 (43:00):
After Bos want to back to the conser
Hey, Brack. Okay, this is Brack Costin. I've known him.
Do you know how long we've known each other, Breck.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
It's probably been close to twenty years at this point.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
No more, because I was like thirty thirty one, maybe
even younger anyway, so easily, No, I think it's twenty five.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
Yeah, yeah, I've never I've never been with time and yeah.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
I think I was like in my early thirties. All right,
So this is Breck Costin. I've known him for years
because a group of friends of mine had found this
Freedom course in LA and it was transformative for them,
and I liked the name Freedom, and I was like
at a crossroads with a relationship. Yeah, Breck, I think
it was earlier. It was like in my twenties.
Speaker 2 (00:54):
Yeah, and I was.
Speaker 1 (00:55):
So that was like a long time ago, maybe almost
thirty years ago, and you could probably go back and
look at the dates. I probably stole my Freedom notebook
upstairs and I went to this like three day immersive
experience at Breck and uh learned a language a lot
of people use now that I actually know is because
of me, which we'll get into. And Breck's sort of
like oblivious to all that like commercial stuff in ways,
which I like because like he never knows how many
(01:18):
times I use his words, but I do always give
him credit, but like other people do also. So Breck
is a life coach slash non traditional therapist but not
like a doctor. And we've known each other for years
and we talk fairly regularly, and he's a great guy
and he's had a big life, and I wanted to
(01:39):
have him on here.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
I think you came on years ago when I started.
Speaker 2 (01:43):
No, I never came on as podcast. We did you
when you had your talk show?
Speaker 3 (01:47):
You didn't.
Speaker 1 (01:48):
I think we did, but maybe yeah we did in
the very beginning, one hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Telling you you know, it's way too long now I
can't remember apparently, yeah, I.
Speaker 1 (01:57):
Mean one hundred percent. In the very very beginning we talked.
So you're in LA and we spoke the other day,
and I thought that hopefully you'd want to come on more,
but I'll sort of drive and I wanted to just
like bring up different concepts that we've discussed over the
years that jump off the page to me, and also
that you probably don't even know that I've discussed the
(02:18):
people and have jumped off the page with them. So
like you talk about a million things, but like probably
the things you wouldn't even think would be the biggest thing.
Speaker 2 (02:25):
Yeah, that's true. I mean, you know, people will take
away what they think is really relevant and resonates. And
I think we're, you know, as a as a coach
or just as as a person who's contributing, you're you're
always looking for different portals and different metaphors and different language, music,
anything you can that you think will get something from
your mouth to someone's ear that will be useful, right,
like digestible and people respond to you know, two different
(02:48):
different image imagery, different music, different rhythms, different metaphors. So
it's kind of figuring out what's what will translate for
each person.
Speaker 1 (02:56):
So I guess we'll go with the biggest ticket item.
I was going to do charming, which we'll do after
because it really surprises people in the charming. I had
a podcast called Charming is a Red Flag and it
was it was very It had a lot of impact,
which was shocking because it really people. It spoke to
people because charming is used as something positive. But let
me just park that for one second. Okay, let's talk
about noise. Okay, many people use the term noise as
(03:20):
a result of me commercializing the term noise as a
result of learning it from you at the Freedom course,
and I took it to another level. You talked about
food noise and money noise, and different people have different
noise or like talking about someone's particularly noisy in that area.
And I wrote a book called Naturally Thin about food noise.
(03:43):
But I've seen people, I've seen on social media other
people talk about it. They don't even realize that it
came from me and that it came from you.
Speaker 3 (03:49):
So just talk. Let's talk about noise for a little bit, okay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
So and I like that, you know, I love that.
As you said, you know, I kind of think of
myself as being the scenes and not to diminish any
other coaches or any other people who are in the
working in you know, transformational world or in a self
help world, spiritual world. But I just think the contract
really is is that you're you're a source, right, you know,
(04:15):
you're not the you know, you're not not that you
can't be the mouthpiece for what you're delivering, but you're
actually the source, and you want other people to be
able to deliver that from their own particular expression, right,
and they make it their own, they take it to
all other level. So that's always exciting for me when
you know, like as you take you know, noise and
kind of disseminate it so it becomes part of the vernacular,
(04:36):
part of the culture. Right. I like that. I like
watching that those kinds of things happen.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
They say the best relationships are the rock and the stars.
So you have many stars that you talk to, but
like you're they're the star. You're the rock, Like you're
behind the scenes and understanding.
Speaker 2 (04:50):
Like any great team, you understand your position, you know,
and you play your position. And I think a lot
of times where it's conflicted and I'll get into noise.
Even from this context, I think for a lot of
people that they're they're they're so wanting to play a
position that they're just not designed for and it's and
it's just and then and I consider that to be
one of the you know, when you're trying to compete
(05:12):
where you're not competitive, it is it is a source
of suffering. Wow, it is. And people will spend years
and years and years trying to squeeze them into something
that they just weren't designed to do and so, and
that goes right into noise as well. So noise is
this very basically it's your really your internal commentary that's
good or bad. Now, this is what people think, they oh,
(05:33):
good noise is good. I'm saying no, no good noise.
You're trying to keep around. Bad noise you're trying to
get rid of. So it has you either way. It
holds you hostage either way.
Speaker 1 (05:42):
So you're saying, like, the absence of noise is real
true piece. It doesn't matter if it's good or bad.
Speaker 2 (05:47):
Yeah, that's where freedom and peace is right. And if
you look at when you're the most brilliant, well you're
when you look at where your essence is being fully expressed,
and it's the essential you. It's when there's no noise.
So that's a singer singing in front of the sea
thousand people and they're not trying to remember their lyrics.
They're not remembering it. They're connected to the audience. They're
expressing themselves there. They don't have like oh man, I'm
(06:08):
crushing it or I'm you know, or this when badly.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Meaning like even if it's family noise and you're managing it,
you're still having to deal with that. You're thinking about
it positive, like I got it under control. That's noisy too,
and bad noises.
Speaker 2 (06:22):
Yeah, so management, the management of something is even more.
I kind of think of this as like a feral tiger, Like,
you know, your noise can be running rampant and just
eating anything that's on the African plane, right, feral, and
then when it comes up with a solution to a problem, Okay,
I'll manage this. I'll juste question this animal, this ferocious animal,
and that just as bad. Right. It's literally like you,
(06:44):
this is a Siegfried and Roy of noise. Is they
know how to work with white tigers, you know they
they made millions of dollars working with with this, you know.
So it's a it's understanding. It's understanding how to work
with you know, your own you know animal. I'll talk
about survivally noise in that regard as well, but it
really is understanding that when you are truly there is
(07:05):
when there's no noise. So that's that's when you, like,
in this conversation that we're having, if you and I
were going, God, I hope this is going well. I
wonder if this is going all right or our internal
dialogue was like, I'm not sure what to say. It's noisy, Yeah,
it'd be like a noise.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Well, that's funny because in the book Naturally Thin, the
way that I took it to the next level, which
I forgot until this exact moment, is I said that
with people with food, they wanted to turn their noise
into a voice, like you're having just a conversation. I'm
about to have a meal, and this what I'm gonna
have versus I was bad, I was good. I ate
so much so I have to beat myself up and
eat more or I have to eat nothing like that's managing.
(07:42):
That's noisy, but just being like okay, chocolate I wanted,
and I'm you know, next, I'm doing this like have
it be like a voice, which to me seemed calmer.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Well it's not only calmer, but you know it's I'd
see this in phases ethany where you kind of like
are first of all recognizing it's coming out of the eathers.
You're recognizing it as an internal dialogue rather that's just
your personality or that's just the way it is. So
you're seeing some distinction between oh, this isn't me, this
is the noise in my head. But most people associate
(08:13):
the noise in their head with them. And when you
were your essential you, there's no noise, and it's a
strange phenomenon, like, oh, when I'm truly being myself, it's
when there's no noise that's happening.
Speaker 3 (08:24):
That's the most meditative state, is being.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Just just there, right, yeah. So, and I think in
a world attempting that right to get to that. So,
I call that the thing you just mentioned, the cherry
pie I made it up as a cherry pye conflict.
And that is like, okay, you got to you got
to lunch, you got to dinner. And the waiter says, okay,
would you like dessert and says with a cherry pie?
(08:47):
Person goes no, you know, no, I'm not going to
have any cherry pie, and so and and he goes
ask again, do you want any cherry pie? And verse
says no, I don't want a cherry pie. And so
throughout the day you're like, hey, you know I didn't
eat that cherry pie. I didn't needt the cherry pie
at all. You know, you didn't have the cherry pie.
But you're still being dominated by cherry pie, when whether
you ate it or not.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
You should have just had yeah, take up by a
couple of bites of it. Yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Whether you ate it or not. That's noisy yet and
that's what noise looks like.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Well, also, I want to tell everyone that and we
can move to something else because I think they maybe
get it. But like that when Breck introduced it to me,
because we're talking about thirty years ago. But I have
a crazy memory for the stuff. You've taught so many
different things and talked about so many different things. But
I want to like take people back to what I
learned that He talked about how each person has different
(09:35):
Someone could have religion, noise, food, noise, money, noise, age, noise, vanity, noise,
like it could be anything. It could be all the
seven deadly sins. It's just you could be noisy about something.
It could be it could be anything, right, Like, it
could be the Emperor has no clothes or I'm not
I'm even someone has billion dollars. They could still think
they're gonna lose it all.
Speaker 2 (09:52):
Oh no, no, that happens. I mean, have a lot
of clients just like you know, who have you know,
story amount of money, and there they can be the
most terrified.
Speaker 1 (09:59):
Okay, so that that's overall. Noise can be different for
every single person.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
But the goal It doesn't mean that noise doesn't produce.
It doesn't mean that it can't produce, meaning like you
can make a ton of money in a certain area. Right.
But the thing is is that it mostly where you
have no noise is where you're the most created, most
most of alved, most accomplished, most you know, most evolutionary. Right.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
Well, that's interesting, Okay, So this is why that's interesting
to me because usually the thing that the person's most
obsessed with, you've called that their plates of wounding, the
thing that they're thinking about the most, is the thing
that isn't coming naturally to them. And I also think
that like between sleep and wake is when all my
best ideas come, and when I'm the most relaxed, is
(10:46):
when my amazing like ideas they just come to solve
a problem that I've had forever.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
And that's quiet, it's literally quiet.
Speaker 2 (10:55):
Well, yeah, you can't you can't solve you know, certainly,
you know you can can't be creative or innovative or
generative when fear or shame is dominating, right, It's it's
a it's a threat, right, So why I say it
can it can produce? It means that someone can can
start like they're there, can start start their mote or
(11:17):
their engine. In terms of I don't want to be
like that. I'm going to change my circumstances. I'm going
to drive something, right. So, like the difference between ambition
and invention is you can start something from a place
of noise, right, you can. It can kick off from
place like I don't want to be like my dad.
I don't want to be like my mom, and I
don't want to live like this. I want to do
something from a reactive place. But in order for it
(11:39):
to fulfill and move, it's got to move into an
evolutionary creative place where it's not driven drop driven from
that that source. So we're all we're always looking at
at you know, what is it that? What is it
that has us? And what is it that we have right?
And what is holding us hostage? And what do I
actually have? So today you know, or just riddled with anxiety, right,
(12:02):
And anxiety is I mean just kind of globally anxiety
is trying to get control of something of no control
over right, and so people come up with tons of
solutions to that.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Like you're you're saying, because you talk about this with
charm too, anxiety has us and you say that charm
has people too, Like, so go into like how these
things are having us, Like we're going to that because
I think that's interesting.
Speaker 3 (12:28):
Most people don't say that.
Speaker 2 (12:30):
Okay, so when I say someone can be productive, I'm
saying that they don't know that. People don't distinguish out enough.
You know, what is it, you know where they have
noise and no noise, so it just looks like, oh,
I if that I'm being manic here, and I'm going, well, no,
you're actually not being manic there. You know here you're
pretty freed up. Here you're manic and you're collapsing both
(12:52):
of those those things. So someone could be have their
craft just to kind of finish that up. Their craft
could be straordinary, like they be able to play the
guitar brilliantly. They can do that, but their career is noisy,
so they never fulfill in their career. But they could
be the best, the best guitarist in the world, and
people understand, what if I'm really great at this, How
come this isn't fulfilling? And some it could be mediocre
(13:15):
in their craft, but really freed up in their career, right,
meaning they have all this room to make mistakes, to fail,
to lose, to move right. And so you know, watching,
you know, watching where things produce and how they produce,
you know, is my entire kind of work, right, Like
what is what is it that has someone to be effective,
you know in a particular way. So the question that
(13:38):
you're asking is, I consider identities. I look at identities,
and the identity is a way you want to be
seen or a way you do not want to be seen. Right,
So I want to I might want to be seen
as smart. I can't be seen as stupid. I want
to be seen as a tractor. I can't be seen
as ugly. I obn to see this as powerful. They
can't be seen as weak.
Speaker 1 (13:57):
I feel like you used to call that image. Also,
is that you're saying that's the same.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Well I did. It was it was a It may
had a much broader context, okay, right, but the identity
is very specific. You know. We walk around, you know,
wanting to be seen in a particular way. And if
we're not seen in a particular way, we get reactive, threatened, disconsolate,
something like that. So I always consider that identities have you,
(14:22):
qualities and characteristics you have. So this is there to
your point about Charmin. So you could have an identity
of loyal like you need to be seen as a
loyal person. That's an identity, right, So you're loyal to
a fault, steal, stay in situations long after you should,
you don't get out fast enough. You ally yourself to
(14:42):
things you shouldn't because you've got a dysfunction, so you're
not seeing things correctly. It's loyal to a fault is problematic.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yep, agreed. And that's almost like the obligation to a fault.
When people constantly have to go, they always have to
show up, it feels disingenuous, like they're doing it to
check the box.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
So with regards to loyalty as a characteristic equality, that's
different than an identity. I mean you have loyalty, Loyalty
doesn't have you. So you can be loyal to the
appropriate situations, you can exit situations appropriately, and you can
be disloyal if you have loyal I mean I'm not
going to be loyal to someone who's saying, you know,
(15:20):
an asshole or someone who's doing this. Right, But you
can't be disloyal if loyalty to a fault has you.
So that is true for everything. So it could be
so everything to be positive or negative depending on the context.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
Okay, so talk about obligation, because everybody that's listening is
doing a bunch of things they don't actually want to
be doing. And I do many things for other people,
but I don't do anything anywhere that I don't want
to do.
Speaker 3 (16:02):
And I think that's jarring, and I.
Speaker 2 (16:05):
That's revolution that's this almost is like you now we're
talking kind of like graduate school in terms of self help,
just because it really is such a revolutionary concept because
it looks completely selfish. Yes, because someone says, but what
looks what looks one way to the culture might be
entirely different to what's actually true. Right. So if someone
(16:30):
is saying, oh, you you know, you never do anything,
you know, obligatorily, and I go and I say, yeah,
I don't, and they go, well, that's just completely selfish.
I go, well, actually know it's selfless because who wants
someone around who's doing something as they're a pain in
the ass. They're doing it for you. They're sanctimonious about it,
they're self righteous about it, and that's not yielding anything.
(16:50):
It's no benefit to any right.
Speaker 1 (16:53):
I don't like when people count who gave a gift
to give a gift back. I don't want any gifts.
I have one, no gifts. Gifts giving is literally my
love language. I don't want any because I'm not giving
a gift because I want something back or because I
got something. They have nothing to do with each other,
and it irritates me when I hear someone, well, can
you believe they came to the wedding and they only
did whatever?
Speaker 3 (17:12):
Who gives a shit that?
Speaker 2 (17:14):
So?
Speaker 1 (17:14):
I hate that shit. I hate counting. That's the opposite
of being a good person.
Speaker 2 (17:19):
An obligation can can just like you said that, it
can trans can translate to many many situations. It can
go to It can go to gift giving. It can
go to emotional context like I love you. I didn't
hear it back, right, You're obligated to say it back,
so it.
Speaker 3 (17:38):
Can be I agree with that too, that's so ridiculous.
Speaker 2 (17:41):
It can be on emotional context, it can be in
a physical context. Obligation can translate to many many different situations.
So obligation, you know, to live a life obligation free, right,
meaning you know, I'm only going to do things that
I want to do, and I'm only going to do
things that I say I'm gonna do or I'm not
going to do them, right, And you know, like when
(18:03):
someone goes, well, what if your wife asks you to
do something to me, I go, that's usually my pleasure.
You know, I want to do something for it.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
It's not an obligation, right, right, but you may not
totally want to do that thing, but you want to
do like.
Speaker 2 (18:14):
But you want to do that for them because you
know it'll.
Speaker 3 (18:16):
Like yess what I'm saying, yes exactly.
Speaker 2 (18:19):
So that's for people get stuck. And you know, in
my marriage, I mean, I think it's been really generous
in that way. Like if I say I don't want
to do exit like something simple like Jane goes, oh,
the dishes are the in the sink? Yeah, I said
I didn't want to do them. She goes, Okay, so
it's it's gonna be as simple as that, and then
they get done you know down the road right where
(18:39):
it's kind of something you want to do, but it's
like literally simple.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
Well no if she lets that go a couple of
times and it is like says to you like it
would be nice if you did them, but doesn't give
you damage.
Speaker 3 (18:49):
Next time you might want to do them.
Speaker 1 (18:51):
It's kind of like this weekend, I was with someone
that I care about and I was exhausted, and I
just I am always activated, but I'm when I do
a lot of things that involve other people, I really
need to restore. And it could be like organizing sweaters,
or like looking at lip gloss or just staring at
the TV.
Speaker 3 (19:07):
I just need to be.
Speaker 1 (19:08):
Alone ish, or like wandering in a house with someone
else there, but not like a you know, in an
obligation mode. Yes, so this person is an extrovert and
I'm more of an introvert. And they said, my cousin's
in town and I was in the Hamptons, and do
you want to go for lunch with him? Now? I
really didn't want to go, but I really care about
this person who's doing a lot of things for me
and and really caring. And I said, I first just
(19:32):
want to know if you care if I go or not,
Like I just want to know where you stand with it.
Speaker 2 (19:35):
Yeah, that was the question. I was to say, is
this important to you that I go?
Speaker 3 (19:39):
Like do you care? Like how much?
Speaker 1 (19:40):
On a one to ten because all of sudden you're
not communicating and you just say yes and then you
resent it or you say no and they resent that
you said no, even though they didn't really care.
Speaker 3 (19:48):
But it was the way that it was discussed.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
I said, listen, you, if it's really important to you,
then we should discuss that. I wasn't even ready to
go yet. I just was ready to say, if it's
really important, you should discuss that. I on my own
vacuum don't want to go, but like, if it's really
important to you, because as a family member, that's a discussion.
And then he was like it's really not and I
was like, okay, great, I really don't want to go.
And then later he was gone for like three hours
(20:12):
and he was worried that it was too long, and
that became a I'm like, no, like not to make
you feel bad. You could go for five hours like
I you know, I want eventually I want you to
come back and not be But it's like that kind
of stuff. It like frees you up because you could
really go on the wrong road. You could go and
resent it.
Speaker 2 (20:29):
First of all, you're always looking to maintain like you're
now talking relationships, so you're talking, so you always are
looking to maintain the affinity of the connection, the love
connection and the relationship. That's kind of like the intention, right,
and in between fights and disagreements and you don't feel
appreciated or whatever people's issues are, you know, that can
(20:50):
be that can that can get threatened that affinity, right,
So those kinds of conversations of like, well is this
important to you? No, it's not, okay, then I'm not
going to go, and it maintains the affinity in the
relationship rather than I'm just not going right.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
No, you're right, or like going and resenting. I do
ask a lot if something's important, Because someone said to
me years ago, Dennis, who you knew, He said, if
it's important to you, it's important to me. He didn't
act that way, but I liked the sentence.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I do too, and I like and I like that too.
So it's obligation. So you live a life obligation free, right,
So you take away the victim. That's really what you're doing,
because a victim is somewhere something or someone.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Smarter like the marthing, or someone's.
Speaker 2 (21:31):
Doing something to you. You take away the victim in
the conversation, right, and then we so get into those
habits of acting like victims and situations and and living
life implication free. So obligation and implication free are like
implication free means you know what it means about you.
If I do this, I'm a good person. If I
don't do this, I'm a bad person. Right, And people
live mostly obligatorily.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
No, they want and they check the butt, they want
the scorecard. It's counting, which is the opposite of a
good relationship, is counting anything.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, you're looking to live a life you know, obligation free,
implication free, and you're more generous, you're more creative, you're
more connected, you're more communication and you have less noise
in your head.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
Bravo.
Speaker 1 (22:11):
So we've accomplished. Okay, let's get into charm. So tell
me about charming. I'm eating a little bite of my
snack because I have very breafacet let's talk about charming.
Speaker 2 (22:19):
So you know, when someone says and usually charm is
associated with you know, men or masculine. Let's call it
that way, you know, can take it.
Speaker 3 (22:27):
Wow, yeah, right, so explain that.
Speaker 2 (22:29):
Yeah. So you know, we don't usually say the woman's charming.
We will use a different term for that. You know, oh, god,
she's really gracious, or she's really soak, you know, sweet,
like all kinds of different things. But that's associated culturally
with a man, right, and it's usually associated in a
really favorable way. Right now. The thing about charm is
(22:50):
that it's and people that people don't like this. But
I considered myself quite charming, you know, early on, so
I figured I can get away with talking about this,
right even I've got you know, it's like someone like
who's who's If you've got the wound, you can really
talk about the wound, right.
Speaker 1 (23:07):
So you probably were really charming. That's why you know
about it so well? Yeah, because you would just guys,
Breck was like a hotshot data models, party like a
rock star, came from money, trust, fun like big swinging dick.
The whole thing, had a life, life humbled you. You
probably were a charming motherfucker with that money and the
(23:27):
models and the looks and all that shit in New
York City partying in La got it?
Speaker 2 (23:32):
Okay? Yeah, so I mean, so I feel like I
have a strong sense of this right now. You can
also have a strong sense of how, you know, how
the narcissistic wound that's associated with charming, right which is
very you know, it's a it's a painful thing for
people to say, but that's what it is. Why is it?
Because it if you're a man who's incredibly charming, you
(23:53):
are you create an addiction of meeting that kind of
attention and that kind of feedback. Do you know you
go to a party, you go to this and something
has to be said about you.
Speaker 1 (24:02):
Okay, So I want to tell everybody because this was
I talked about this. It's the guy who sometimes not you,
but sometimes the charming is the hey, Dan, how's your
golf game? And like real Gregario is then at home
like treating his wife like shit or I've had that scenario.
I've also had this scenario where the guy's like the bro,
real bro, real friend, you know, just hugging everybody and
(24:24):
good looking and everybody likes him and girls like it,
and he's a life of the party and like the
peacock like and you're right, because it is an addiction.
Speaker 3 (24:31):
They just go to it right away. It works so well,
and go ahead.
Speaker 2 (24:35):
So it becomes really your go to in as a man,
and that's and you and it gets narrowed down so
that becomes mostly your entire or you're organized around when
you're driven by, you know, getting feedback for how charming
you are needing to seduce all the time, whether it's
men or women. You're just you're like an animal and
is constantly generating that.
Speaker 1 (24:56):
You're singing the karaoke song, you're doing the shots, You're
a charming, the mom you got, everybody loves you.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
Whatever's required. If what's required is be completely quiet, what's
required to be totally entertaining, what's required to be this,
You're you're you're managing whatever you need to do to
get that feedback. Wow, so and and it and it
becomes an addiction like anything else. That's why age can
be really challenging for people as they you know, as
(25:24):
they fall and they don't have the same skills, they
don't do the same resources that they had. So what
I all say to women, and women will say this
right as well, is if you see someone who's particularly charming,
run for the hills.
Speaker 3 (25:39):
I literally called the podcast charming is a red flag.
Speaker 2 (25:43):
Yeah, so run for the hills because in two years
you're gonna hate this God, You're gonna hate, You're gonna go,
I'm gonna kill this guy.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
The very thing that you found so fascinating that the stick,
this bit is gonna make you sick, it.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Is, and in two years you're gonna be out of
your mind. Right. So I say I say this to
women when women go, you know, I'm marrying my yoga instructor.
I go. Just because he can put his you know,
legs around his head doesn't mean that he's got emotional flexibility.
Don't confuse those two, right. I'm not saying he doesn't.
I'm saying that those are different phenomenas. There's a different
photomen beeing spiritual evolution, creative evolution, emotional evolution, right, and
(26:21):
these things so a lot of times, and that can
be a highly seductive thing for you know, and and
dating charms. So I'm saying most men, other men who
so who have integrity, you know, a sense of themselves
and a sense of you know, kind of a moral
compass in terms of who they are and what they are,
and they don't need all that feedback. They have a
(26:42):
stronger sense themselves, they can have charm. So meaning you
can have charm from a context of integrity, right, But
if charm is your whole story, that's where it's problematic.
Speaker 3 (26:54):
It's owning you, it's wearing you.
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Yeah, it's it's what it has you your dow'n have it.
So it doesn't mean you can have charm. It just can't.
It's got to be like anything. You've got to be
able to pick it up and put it down and
use it, and it's got to be more more mobile
in play in all that way. And most men who
have integrity and have a great deal of respect dismiss charm.
They'll see other men and they'll they'll dismiss it because
(27:17):
they can smell like it's it's self centered, it's narcissistic,
it's it's superficial, it doesn't.
Speaker 3 (27:22):
Have enough weight love it wow.
Speaker 2 (27:25):
And so you've got to be interested. And this is
always the game, you know, for me, loss is always
the game that you're willing to lose what you considered
maybe your most important asset for the possibility of your
own evolution.
Speaker 1 (27:38):
Well, it's funny you say that, because the way I
think of it is things that you're good for and
things that are good for you. So I used to
remember friends of our Shannon, et cetera. I used to
produce events, large scale events, multimillion dollar events, the Grammy's,
the Emmys, on the Rock, Alcatraz. No one was ever
better at it than I was. No one you could
ask the woman who ran all the events at Disney.
(27:59):
My bodyline was perfect, my P and L sheet, I
missed not a detail I didn't. I picked up every floral,
like every chair, like.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
I mean, yeah, that makes that make perfect sense.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Because I'm sick like so. But I was great for it.
It wasn't great for me. So I had to be
like you know, and that's what goes on in my
work every day. Things that I'm good at, and my
whole entire team relies on me for all the details
in the detail of every video and every caption and
all the weeds because I'm amazing at them, but they're
not good for me. And it's like a discipline for
the people around me. Like you guys cannot come to
(28:31):
Mommy for every single question otherwise I cannot do what
I need to do in my business.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
It's not good for me.
Speaker 1 (28:37):
So that's sort of my like cross to bear is
what I'm good for, but what's not good for me?
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Yeah, and those are those are and there they can
be very different, right they can. They can be very
very different. So, and that's also understanding what's bankrupt, you
know as it because because you can be highly productive
and have no sense of that illution. Yes, do you
know what I mean? Like you know? I mean you can,
you can make a billion dollars, you can do all
kinds of things, and yet your sense of self, your development,
(29:07):
you know, you're still maintaining the same You're still maintaining
the same way of being because.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
You do the same exercise at the gym every time.
My inclination is to solve the problem, is to tell
you I'm dealing with the situation with this guy or
with Brin's school, or with work, and go attack and
produce the problem and use it like a relief effort
and solve it. But I'm not growing, I'm a feeling.
I'm not learning. I just know how to like wrap
it up. And so Milin to my therapist, who you've met,
will be like now she's not like a how do
(29:34):
you feel? But she doesn't really care about me, giving
her like the news, sports and weather. She wants to
like get to like what's going on about it?
Speaker 2 (29:41):
Yeah, like what what is the what is the thing
that you're that you have kind of have to lose
in order to gain. Now, people think that they're going
to lose their their essential asset, and I'm going, no,
that's an illusion that the sense the essential asset just
moves into the foundation of your life. It's no longer
in the foreground, right, but you have to have that
noise back to noise. That noise in your head is
(30:03):
like if you if you introduce a new possibility something
and I don't care who, it's an emotional possibility, like
you know, I want to be I want to I
want to be on time I don't know, or I
want to I want to complete things. I want to
when I say I'm going to start a complete whatever
you introduce or I want to be more compassionate. Whatever
you might introduce, you also introduce because you wouldn't be
(30:24):
introducing that if it was something that you didn't have.
You're introducing it because it's something you don't have that
you're wanting, right, And so if you're introducing that you're
also introducing the loss, the loss of well, wait me,
I won't I won't be able to produce over here,
or I won't be effective over here, or this might
you know, fall apart. So that's the fear. That's why
(30:45):
when someone says, well, most people don't change, they're not wrong,
just because what it requires to change is huge.
Speaker 1 (30:52):
You mean, like, I'm stopping drinking, so I'm not gonna
be the life of the party anymore. I'm overweight, I'm
losing weight. I'm not going to be jovial exactly. Yeah,
there's that Friends, that episode about fun and Bob.
Speaker 2 (31:01):
I think it's fun Bobby Worth, right, Oh god, Bobby's
coming over, you know, because he is an alcoholic and
he was hysterical and now and he's no longer drinking
and he's not fun anymore, right, Which is not accurate.
It's not you know, lots of people have been sober
for years who are incredibly entertaining and great and creative
at all and more productive than ever. So it's not
a function of that, but it is a function of
(31:23):
not being afraid to lose. And I think and I
look at that as one of the major themes of
evolution right that you're willing in some area to you know,
to lose in a powerful, profound way.
Speaker 3 (31:47):
Okay, so now I have two little things.
Speaker 1 (31:49):
So the two things I want to talk about are
something you said recently about people don't come batteries are
not included the way that we start like catastrophizing and
thinking about something. But they're not this, but they're this,
whe they're different than the last person. And I was
with and like, and you've said, like battery, people don't
come with batteries. That's one concept, and then the other
one is like I don't think this is just like
a bit. But when I was talking to a writer
(32:11):
who works for Fortune magazine last night, this woman Diane Brady,
and she was talking really intimately about the difference between
extroverts and introverts as it pertains to being a CEO,
and she was like, I'm an extrovert. She knew who
she was, and she was like, the pandemic killed me.
I was like wanting to like go talk to like
essential essential worker.
Speaker 2 (32:30):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (32:31):
Yeah, she was like I wanted to walk out. And
for me, I was like I was a in a
like a blanket. I extended the pandemic two years by
that behavior like it gave me license to keep using
it as an excuse to never leave the house. So
and then she was talking about how entrepreneurs introverts are
very good entrepreneurs because they get really deep and granular
(32:54):
and extroverts don't have have more difficult time focusing. They
may be good at knowing a lot of different things,
maybe about the market, about so many different companies and
different topics, but they don't they have a difficulty focusing.
Speaker 2 (33:06):
I think that's a really use just just to put
some you know, parentheses around it. I think that's I
think it's really astute in terms of introverts and extroverts
that if you look at CEO, someone who's doing all
the operations and managing all those operations and managing people, yeah,
you know, they're mostly extroverts. They have that ability visionaries,
(33:27):
you know, founders, entrepreneurs, they're more introverted. They're like, you know,
that's a very that's a that's more of a thing.
They wouldn't be running and managing a bunch of people.
So that's why when I when I look at you know,
like when Elon Musk kind of took over Twitter, I
management is not his you know, he's an inventor, right, and.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
What are you? I'm totally an introvert and people are
shocked by that, but I can't. I hate managing people
from the.
Speaker 2 (33:54):
So I'm the same way. I'm a complete introvert. Okay, interesting,
I'm a complete and everybody says, so I'm much more
like the pandemic. I thrived in the pandemic and and
zoom became everything. So everybody, even I always say, an
act of love is that you don't invite me anywhere, right,
so you cancel on me, right, So so all of
(34:15):
those that's that's but being creative, generative, you know, collaborative
and making something happen, those that's you know, that's where
I thrive. And you don't want me running your company.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
But this woman said that that that they draw upon
each other like. Well, It's interesting though, because I find
that people. I've had people gravitate towards me because of
my like the light and the way that I am,
like my passion, which isn't about being an extrovert, and
(34:47):
sometimes they'll like dim my light as a result. It's
kind of a different thing. But I'm thinking to who
is attracted to who introverts are attracted to extroverts or
extroverts because there are two extroverts are not the best combination, right,
because you can't focus.
Speaker 2 (34:59):
Well first, well, you don't necessarily want to, you know
when when you're just back to the whole idea of
knowing your position, which you kind of started with, like yeah,
and knowing what your contribution is and people wanting to
be what they're not. Right, you know, this is really
understanding you know how you where you fully express yourself
and what does that look like? And just like in
(35:20):
a relationship, if if you have two people of the
same issues, you know that's problematic and you know, meaning
like oh we're going to run out of money, Yeah,
we're going to die. You don't want those two things
or like god, look out fat i am, look out,
look at my butt. You don't want both those all
those issues colliding. You want them missing. And that's the
same with assets. When you build a team, you know,
the CEO is not the is not the CTO, and
(35:44):
the CTO is not the CEO, and the founders and
the visionaries not and they're all they're all and building
a profound championship team is understanding each person playing their
position perfectly and they intersect.
Speaker 1 (35:58):
Yeah, you could be in the I've had someone who's
seems who's in the wrong seat, but and they're great
in the right seat.
Speaker 2 (36:04):
Like absolutely, just a little exactly.
Speaker 1 (36:07):
Okay, you could have someone who seems terrible because they're
in the wrong fucking seat. But if they're loyal and
seems smart enough, you should play musical chairs. And what's
interesting is that. So I'm at this Fortune event last night.
I'm sitting at the table with a woman very high
up at General Motors and another and we're next to uh,
Josh Kushner, uh, and the guy who is the CEO,
(36:27):
Sebastian of hoult Renfrew, like major people. And this woman
Diane Brady next to me, who had an interesting conversation
with journalists and she's at Fortune. Now that's her, that's her.
She's the one who said it. But to be honest,
I have never heard anyone use it in human resources
and in staffing and in executive searches. And they should,
like you're not allowed to ask someone how old they are,
(36:48):
but you should be you should actually do the emotionally
intelligent conversation in staffing and ask are you an introvise?
This is no wrong answer, but here's the here's the quiz,
or give them the quiz, like it's like an IQ
quiz because it's true, Like I have been in relationships
with introverts many times because I'm attracted to someone similar
to me because they're gonna say I don't want to
go out either.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
But it's bad for me.
Speaker 1 (37:10):
It's bad for me, and I haven't realized that because
it's like I get into like sort of like there's
like a film on us.
Speaker 3 (37:16):
It's like stale.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
Understanding, you know, understanding and the one hundred of nuances
that go to those kind of headlines intovert an extrovert
r because underneath those two things are tons of nuances that, yeah,
that someone should use this as some sort of scrutiny
in terms of discerning like, well, is this the person
the right position? I mean, I'm doing that all day long.
In terms of subtle pivot, it's like just a little
(37:37):
subtle pivot and changes is a game changer with that
person or a dramatic pivot, right, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (37:42):
But I think in this case the label is important
because I don't think that the average person if I
were applying for a job, they would not think that
I was an introvert.
Speaker 2 (37:51):
No, no, no, no, they wouldn't. They wouldn't have no idea.
Speaker 3 (37:53):
You too, if someone were hiring you, Brick, they.
Speaker 2 (37:56):
Would no, no, no, absolutely right, So.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
They might think you could manage a bunch of people.
They might think you could be the head. You know.
Speaker 2 (38:02):
You know what I mean, I've done that. When I'm
pitching something that I really want you to take over this,
I go, that's a lesson you want me doing exactly,
And I say that directly. You know, that's not that
I'm not I'm not doing that, right, But that's because
also you won't do obligation. Yes, so, but I was
saying about Bethane. When you're seeing being attracted to your light,
that is what That's what someone who's an entrepreneur, visionary,
(38:26):
you know, someone who like you. People know that shit's
going to happen over there. This is something, this is
you know, there's something creative, something innovative, something will happen
that will translate into you know, into the world. Right,
So I think people know that, right.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
And I get vampired and I don't even realize it is.
Speaker 2 (38:45):
And then you need to know who then you need
to know like who are you going to allow do
that because they have to be complementary in terms of
feeding you as much as you feed that. Right, it's
a it's that's part of the dance.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
And by the way, that's a thing that's another construct
that like could be a chapter in a book that
I never have thought about that and this age I've
never thought about that I'm gonna draw certain people, but
if they're if we're not gonna be playing tennis where
I'm playing with a better tennis player and they're just
gonna draw off of me, but I'm not getting anything positive.
It's gonna kill me. And it's happened like it actually
(39:19):
you feel like you're just light is dimming. It's actually
happened to me.
Speaker 2 (39:22):
It's wild and that I mean, I'm possibly I don't
know if it's actually, you know, completely true. But that's
an age thing also where you then know that because
mostly you're just gonna you're gonna draw in everything, because
that's what the light does. It'll draw in all kinds
of things. And then the ability to discern who you
actually collaborate with, who you're with, what you're gonna do.
Speaker 1 (39:44):
Mark, That's exactly my biggest problem. Literally, access is my
number one problem. Everyone around me. We have to go
on an access diet.
Speaker 3 (39:51):
Two things.
Speaker 1 (39:51):
Having too many ideas is number one. But access it's insane.
Like I'll talk, I'll be giving my phone number to
the person that's bringing the ice bucket to the table
because they're like fun and they were so good at it,
like and people around me, but then to everybody in
business and everybody in charity and people around me like, stop,
we're on an access you can't know too much.
Speaker 2 (40:10):
Yeah, And I think I do think that's a function
of a of age and wisdom where you just have
the ability to discern and that and that you start doing.
It's like one action impacts one hundred actions rather than
a hundred actions impact one hundred actions. Right, you really
use your leverage and your understanding and your discernment and
you and you honor the you know your capacity and
(40:31):
what you have to offer. I mean, I'm saying that
all the time. Like, you know, I remember years ago.
It's a it's a crazy story, but I remember this
person came to me and I don't know they were
kind of they were a client but they said, I
really want to be I really want to be friends
with you, Breck correct, Like, I said, what are you seven?
It's an interesting thing like seven year olds? You never
I said, He goes, I really want to be friends
(40:51):
with you. And I said, well, I can either tell
you the truth or nor your phone call. Which one
do you want?
Speaker 1 (40:57):
Right?
Speaker 2 (40:57):
And he said, okay, tell me the truth. I go,
I would never be friends with you, and he said
what I said, you understand my friendships are based on
collaborative things. That doesn't mean emergencies don't happen. That doesn't
mean we're not there for each other. It means that
you know, we're not there's no draining of each other.
And I said, you would be draining the hell out
of me, right, And they said there'd be not enough
(41:19):
that you could bring that would actually, you know, change that.
So why don't you just keep coming to me until
you can be your own best friend? Okay? I like
that's so it's understanding, you know that, not from an
egotistical place. It's more from really understanding.
Speaker 3 (41:34):
And so it's actually selfless because you're being honest and.
Speaker 2 (41:37):
It's useful for him. Yeah, it's useful. Hand and to
see like, really, well, what is it about me that's
doing that?
Speaker 3 (41:43):
Right?
Speaker 2 (41:43):
Where's the neediness in me that's you know, and that's
that's telling complete Yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:48):
Yeah, So I could talk to Breck forever and I'm
like exasperated today. I'm a little manic because there's so
many topics that I want to get you guys in
two with him, and next time there'll be ten more.
So I'm reminding myself the next time, I want to
talk about intervening in our own behavior. And also the
break has said batteries not including batteries are not included
in people like how we expect to either fix someone
(42:11):
or them to be everything or just start criticizing what
they are today when they're a fully formed human being
when you meet them, and also catastrophizing.
Speaker 3 (42:19):
So I want to talk to you about a lot
of things.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
It's too many them. Also just to add, I mean,
there's so many things you're right that can go on forever.
And that's the whole nature of just when we're talking
about partnerships or relationships, most people commit to their expectations,
they don't really commit to the to the actual person.
Speaker 1 (42:34):
They don't really Okay, all right, so that we're going
to get into that. All right, So we got to
do this more. I could go for days, but you
got to get off.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
All right, all right, great talking, all right, Oh my god.
Speaker 1 (42:43):
But beyond by Breck
Speaker 2 (43:00):
After Bos want to back to the conser
Host
Bethenny Frankel
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