September 10, 2020 • 54 mins
2020 marks the 25th anniversary of the release of the iconic album Jagged Little Pill and today singer-songwriter, Alanis Morissette, joins Katie to talk new music and mothering. From home birthing her three children, to attachment parenting and the concept of unschooling our kids, Katie and Alanis cover a lot of ground in this episode.
Crib Notes:
Alanis Morissette - Such Pretty Forks in the Road
Alanis Morissette - Ablaze (official video)
Alanis Morissette tour coming Summer 2021: https://alanis.com/
Alanis Morissette’s Four Boundaries article
Dr. Dan Siegel - The Whole Brain Child & Brainstorm: The Power and Purpose of the Teenage Brain
John & Julie Gottman of The Gottman Institute - Repair
Mothering the Mother: How A Doula Can Help You Have A Shorter, Easier, And Healthier Birth by Klaus, Kennell, Klaus
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to Katie's Crib.
I'm Katie Lows, and I've got a lot of energy
today because we have got seven time Grammy Award winning
(00:22):
singer songwriter mother of three Atlantis Morissett on the podcast today.
And if you can't tell from my voice, I am
losing my mind. I got to spend an hour with Atlantis,
and um, after I stopped all my hormonal crying and
freaking out, UM, I just talked to her about like
(00:44):
being a mom you guys, like she's three kids, about unschooling,
about attachment parenting, about her postpartum depression, her home births. Guys,
she is a wealth of mommy knowledge, and UM, I
just can't wait for you guys to listen. So here
she is, Atlantis Morrisset. I am so honored, thrilled, emotional
(01:11):
to meet you. I mean, yeah, you really you're bringing
up a lot in me. I'm sorry and you're welcome.
I'm also it's really crazy, but I'm pregnant with my
second child. Probably I would probably thank you. I would
probably be able to cover better that I'm on the
(01:32):
verge of tears meeting Atlantis Morrisset people. But I that's
not available. That's not available to me on this day.
I just think you are. I mean, obviously, you're a
musical genius, you're a visionary, you're an icon. I'm talking
about Atlantis Morrisset people. Um, but for me, you're an
(01:54):
incredible mom. And we are a podcast talking to ms
and I just can't believe this new album. Um, such
pretty forks in the road and the ablaze video again
me being a hormonal pregnant woman. Oh my god, what
(02:14):
are you trying to do to me? I can't even
get tested myself. So when I'm when I'm singing it,
I literally have to think of baseball or something, because
if I really tune into what I'm singing, I'm a mess.
It's unbelievable. And your your baby Winter turns one tomorrow.
We can't believe it. I can't. Thanks for saying that
(02:36):
he's the keutest. We needed an e name for my
first We wanted any name for my firstborn. And we're
just something you do in the Jewish faith and we ever,
I was like, Atlantis Morris, that's oldest is ever that
should be on our list, but we are not cool enough.
So what's your name? Well, we ended up going with
(02:58):
another No, that's what we should have put that there. Um,
we ended up going with a different deceased grandparents with
an a letter and his name is Albie and he's
going to be three. Um. But I want to get
into when I was drafting up all the questions you
(03:21):
could sit and ask Atlantis Morrisset about her mothering and
you as a human. The pages are endless, so I
wanted to not take so much advantage of your time.
But we are marking the twenty anniversary of Jagged Little Pill.
We just did that in June. Your life, my life,
all of our listeners lives, so I feel like we're
(03:42):
very in a similar mom age. Group looks very different
from Jagged Little Pill. Talking about it, it's exactly the same.
I think this new album such pretty forks in the road.
What's so cool to me about it is that you
didn't compart like this. Atlanta is like, you're just not
putting your motherhood aside. Yeah, It's like, well you can't,
(04:08):
but I feel like women do, right. I don't know.
I think is a real thing, and I understand why
women do it. I just like, I'm looking at you.
You're so beautiful, you look so good. I just like
you're such goals in terms of like being a full
rounded artist that's speaking about where you are in your
(04:29):
life as a woman. Now. It's like, I'm not trying
to be my year ago self. I'm not trying to
be who knows where the hell we're going to be.
You know what inspired this album, Let's start there. Obviously
it's your kids. Um obviously your children. Was it a
long process in writing these these songs. So I wrote
(04:53):
that song before Winter was born, actually a year before
Winter was born, so it had the two choruses about
Ever my son, and Onyx my daughter. And then we
moved up to just outside the Bay Area after having
lived in Hollywood for twenty five years, so that was
a huge adjustment. And I was pregnant during that time.
And you know, basically every PPD doctor in the world says,
(05:15):
if there's one thing I suggest you not doing while
you are pregnant is a big move, And I'm like, okay, check,
did thou not the smartest timing to be moving? But
um so when I was writing the first part of
the record, I was living in Malibu, so we were
recording it all right on the ocean, which was really
kind of cinematic and idyllic um environment. And then I
(05:36):
wrote the last couple of songs, and I wrote the
song Reckoning in just outside the Bay Area, and then
I thought, you know, winters here we the guy needs
a chorus, so I erased an extroverse and put a chorus.
That final chorus is about winter, and that's what QQ
sobbing c. It's a kind of love that is really
(05:58):
hard to articulate. It's almost like it's you either know,
this version of love, because we know there's the dopamine
from infatuation, there's there's bliss, there's ecstasy, but this kind
of love for these creatures is really hard to put
into words. It's hard, you know, and I live to
chase putting everything into words. And we were just saying
(06:19):
before you came on, I said, I'm so petrified to
interview Alanis Morrisset. I mean, but because you're you're such
a poet and a lyricist and so incredible with language,
and I'm like a bumbling, fumbling ass, not quite but
I love being an actor because I get to say
a like I get to say Shanna Rhyme's words, you
know what I mean? Like you know, like everything. I'm
(06:41):
just like, let someone else write me out of this situation.
I can't do this, but if anyone can write about
the love of a child, I can at least attempt it.
You can attempt it. Did you know right away that
you wanted the music video to feature your three kids
and soul? Lie? I had no idea. You know, I'm
the I'm the opposite of a stage mom. So my
parents are begging me to exploit them. Please, I'm like, no,
(07:04):
you will have absolute permission to make any choices you want,
free will when you turn fifty seven. And not a
month before when they came time to shoot the video,
we're basically still in lockdown and you know, pandemic time,
so we're like, what is this? What are we going
to do? How are we going to do this? So
you like just shot this video a few days ago?
(07:24):
What a fucking gift for us? Oh my gosh, you're
so sweet? Like what so like this video could have
existed in a completely different way pree covid had there
been the seventy people crewmates and and uh you know
the team that usually we arrive and shoot a video.
There's about seventy five of us in this time there
(07:46):
we're not and we're the kids completely down with it
because I know we have similar parenting styles. I don't
really for you. No, I'm not forcing my kid to
hit their mark, you know what I mean, Like that's
never going to happen about stage moms. So how was
it just a free for all? And and that's why
it feels so spirited and free. Oh that's so sweet. There.
(08:07):
It was a little structured that, you know, the sense
of what the scope was and what our goals were.
That was structured. But you know how it goes with
structure with people under twenty people under thirty at this point, um,
good luck. So basically, we we kept them in the
scenes to the degree that they were happy about it,
and there were moments where you know, they weren't happy,
(08:28):
and I said, okay, we're done this one cut, We're done,
no no pain around shooting for my family. You're you're
a very famous musician. What does that mean for your
kids putting them out there? I mean, and it's a
very personal question for a lot of people, how do
you feel about that? Well, because who I am is
so attachment, inextricably linked to my family, I'm open to
(08:51):
having some things include all of us, but I'm hyper
discerning my mama bear like any other mama, I'm super protective,
so you know, if it's a fun thing, I'll share.
But I really think there's a difference between privacy and secrecy.
I have no desire to keep my family a secret,
but privacy is loving and protective. So I definitely have
(09:13):
the guardian at the gate thing um. But at the
same time, I'm not going to deprive us of having
a ball, you know, and they happen to the enjoy it.
You know, that makes perfect sense. Now, there's a big
age gap you I've read this. There's an age gap
between ever and Onyx due to miscarriages in between. I've
also had miscarriages and it it. I know You've done
(09:34):
a bunch of interviews about that and the mom community.
Thanks you for your openness on the topic. When did
you know you were ready again for moms listening who
might be in that situation? I just never stopped. I've
just been on this like crazy mission for ten years.
The mission was. You know, I, before having met SOULI
(09:54):
and before having met my kids, you know, this was
my It was just a driving force. I've had this
maternal energy. I know a lot of women friends of
mine who don't. They have no desire, and I love
them for it. I happened to be one of those
women that when I was very little, I had the
dolls and I was, you know, feeding the dolls, and
so that maternal thing was just there. And I have
(10:16):
two brothers, so I think there was some unconscious part
of me that just wanted to have three kids. But
when it became a little bit more difficult, uh, you know,
just randomly choosing the three numbers, I just gave up.
But I kept, you know, I kept in contact with
what I felt was just you know, the existential procreative
imperative was still pretty fiery in me. So I just
(10:37):
kept chasing, like an ambitious little like it just like
it was out there. Yeah, you're just like you're it
was like a calling and you've always known three, whether
or not that's because it was your personal experience or
a number you just really like, yeah, and who cares? Right? Like, Okay,
so three and if it wasn't to be three, I
didn't it would have been fine. So yeah, and you
(11:00):
had home births with all three of them, which has
been a topic that has been massive during quarantine. UM,
I have seen just a lot of friends make that
choice that may maybe wouldn't have previously for many reasons. Again,
did you always know you wanted to have a home birth? Like,
as the time came to find care, you know, prenatal care,
(11:23):
I just met with a ton of people, and I,
you know, there were a big nose. Cheryl Richardson taught
me a long time ago if it's if it's not
a percent yes, it's a no. So basically I'd meet
all these you know, lovely, well well reputable doctors and
um just wasn't a match. And then I started talking
with midwives and I thought, Okay, this this feels this
(11:43):
feels like yes, and this feels like everything, every part
of this process is being honored. There's love, there's tenderness,
there's there's a maternal energy already in place in this
care context. It was perfect for me. And then as
I was giving birth the first time at home with ever,
I just remember looking up because it was too late
(12:04):
by the end to go to any hospital or to leave.
So I just remember thinking of all the other women
a that have already given birth the kick butt and
they're on the other side. Then I was thinking about
all the women at the exact same time who were
giving birth with me around the planet, and I was
just really calling upon those women because I was like,
this is a this is a turning point where I
(12:25):
you know, I can't change my mind. You know what,
you know, I forget it. I changed changed my mind.
You're like, I can't call in all the drugs. Now,
this this is what I chose. But the good part
is in having prepped. If you can even prep for
home birth, you barely can. But I mean someone would
argue with me that you can prepare, and I did.
I did all the hypno birth. I did everything you can,
(12:47):
especially that first baby, right. I was just like I
read home into it. I took so many classes and
meditative things, and honestly, until you're looking down the baron
all the whole situation and Daryl, you can't know it.
You can't. It's really wild. The best for the closest
I've come to describing the birth experience is an eighteen
(13:10):
wheeler careening through your body and then kind of ripping
back in and then driving back out again, and then see.
And that's why you're such a poet and so great
with words, because that is what it feels like. We're
your second and third home birds easier. Um, they were wilder.
So my daughter was born at home and our midwife
(13:31):
didn't make it because she was so fine. That's right.
I read that so so literally. Was your midwife, your dula,
your baby catcher, your husband, your life partner, you're daddy,
you're everything? Yes, of ever, yes, And were you afraid, like,
of course you can't know what he's doing. Well, the
(13:53):
best part about arts haven't been born in such a
short amount of time. And I think it was about
I think of my water broken. I woke up at
twelve seventeen and she was here at am, basically when
he was scared. It was perfect timing between us. When
he was scared, I just kicked into coach, you know, like, no,
she's going to come. You don't have to manipulate this.
She's coming on the next one. And when I would
(14:15):
freak out, like he would tell me how to breathe,
and he at one point said, get on your hands
and needs. Get on your hands and niece, okay, And
then she came right out. And then we waited about
thirty five minutes and then everyone came. But the question
is for fucking craziest to choose my language thing I've
ever heard in my life, Like, I mean, I just can't.
I mean, I guess because I'm I'm putting my husband
(14:38):
in soul lives shoes that would just not but they
rise my husband. He's the greatest, most wonderful thing. But
he faints that he's a fainter. I think I would
have been alone. Well, the good news is you still
could have done it. I could have squatted and caught
my own baby women do. Um wow, that's I can't
(15:00):
even imagine looking in my husband's eyes after that, knowing
that you shared something like that together. Yes, no, we were.
We were both gob smacked for quite a while. We
still are. I still don't believe that three humans were
in my body when I look at them and I
hang out with them and they're so funny and charming
and you know wild Just wait a minute, you were
(15:23):
in Okay, There's just no way I can figure that
one out or or you know, make sort of some
conscious grasp of that it's just too big for me.
It's too big, but I love it. In an interview,
you um also we're very honest for your postpartum depression,
and you said, quote it's like being covered in tar
(15:46):
unquote again the beautiful words of Atlantis Morrist that are perfect.
This is very accurate description. And what I'm curious about
is I had um. I guess they call it postpartum
blue after my first because it mad in that six weeks.
But I was not thrilled. I did not take to mothering,
(16:07):
which was a shock. I was a nanny for ten years.
I love kids, and my own child came home and
I was like a zombie and crying endlessly. And my
husband was like, oh shit, my my wife's going to
get on a plane and get a false identity and
I'm going to be here by myself. That's it. I'm
going to pay attention. But did you do anything to
(16:27):
prepare differently for number two and number three? Because I'm
looking down the barrel of number two and I'm trying
to prepare myself better and I'm talking about blues or
potential postpartum activity, both okay, um, do you have a
history of depression in your family? Yes, okay, so it's
a possibility. And I um, unbeknownst to me after my
(16:50):
third experience with postpartum activity, because it isn't just depression,
let's be honest, there's a list of twenty seven things
that one's a hard one to chase with words too.
So with ONYX, it came back and it was actually worse.
So I've heard the depression. So after ever and after ONYX,
it was it was depression. And I'm a high functioning
(17:12):
depressed person, which I'm not wildly proud of saying, but
survival for survival reasons. It was fortuitous that I could
somehow still function through it. But it was, you know,
not a lovely experienced quote unquote. Uh. And then after
Winter was born, I was prepared with bioidentical hormones because
I thought it was pretty much just thyroid and hormones,
(17:33):
and hey, I can head that off at the past
with doing bioidenticals, But what I forgot is that I
can't breastfeed and be taking bioidenticals that bring my hormones
into a category of homeostasis whatever that means. The milk
supply would go away. So for me, in some ways,
I feel like I'm tolerating this, you know, activity, postpartum activity,
(17:55):
because I want a breastfeed and I have a sense
and I could be wrong on this one, but I
have a sense that because both times last time, this
is what happened once I stopped breastfeeding and I adjust
the hormones and you know, basically I'm not up all
night feeding on demand. I think it will things will
shift a little bit. But I'm on medication. I love medication.
(18:16):
I have first time, I waited a year in four months,
and I remember having spoken to a doctor and she said,
I said, if I white knuckle through this as I
do with everything, and I'm like, if I sold her
through this, can I just kind of get through it?
And she said, actually no, honey, it gets worse. So
as soon as I heard that, I was like, okay,
so what what am I taking? You know? So I
(18:37):
tried everything. I tried alexa, pros alexa. We tried everything,
and prozac was the winner for me. And but it
does all these side you know, not the most fun,
but again, I get to breastfeed. So I met something
for you that some women I've talked to you who
struggled with p P d UM, they knew in their
(18:59):
heart that if they had the choice to go on
let's say, a different drug that would stop breastfeeding, they
were going to be even more depressed because breastfeeding was
so such a goal of theirs and something that they
enjoyed and loved so much with their children that they
were like, what's the lesser of all evils? It's like,
what do we choose here? And it's so different for
every mom because some moms, first of all, you can
(19:21):
nail attachment quote unquote just by eye contact, skin nurturings,
you know. So I mean, if you can't breastfeed, you're
you can still nail attachment. It's like, of course, so
of course you'll always be snuggling and you know, and
getting to know each other. And that's the most charming
thing that I thought about today when I was talking
with winter Um in our own little language this morning,
(19:42):
and I just thought, Wow, I'm I'm getting to know
you like you're becoming someone I know now. You know,
I've known ever for nine and some nine and a
half years. You know, I know what you know, and
I've only known winter for a year, and and so
it's it's it is like a process of getting to
know a person you've just met. It's way more complicated
and more no more death to it than that. But
(20:04):
but there's an element of me just going, wow, it's
just been such a pleasure getting to know you. You go,
it's amazing. You know. I have friends that are like whatever,
second kid, third kid, you're just less worried that they're
(20:25):
going to die at every second. And so your chiller,
their chiller isn't even more so with the third Yes,
my chiller. But also but at this point, you know,
and I used to hear people saying, oh gosh, now
we're outnumbered, and I'm like, yeah, that's exactly right. You're outnumbered.
So it can't just be mom and dad saving the
day or where mom and mom or dad or dad
(20:46):
is just like we need a village now there needs
to be the village needs to grow. And we also
have been unschooling, so we have Yeah, we need to
talk about Okay, I want to go back to first
explain for anyone listening. I already know, but let's give
a little contact what attachment parenting is. And that's something
you've practiced with all your kids. It's a twenty four
hour gig. Yeah. Like so, so it was very intuitive
(21:08):
and very you know, the least intellectual thing choice I
could ever make, and I truly didn't. I'd always understood
attachment theory, but attachment parenting and attachment theory we're kind
of like church and state and they. But I had
a I'm just going to name drop a little bit,
but I was talking with Dan Siegel and I said
this attachment parenting. God, I was like, what if the
(21:30):
attachment parents isn't the agenda? If it's if if it's
true that parenting is one of the maybe the only,
in my opinion, the biggest activism there is because it's
where we're instilling values and perceptions and racism or not racism.
You know. This is where it's all the all the
seas are being planted, you know. And of course we're
(21:51):
dealing with the nature as well. So you've got the
beautiful temperament that you're just going to get to know
and see what works, and then you're adding all this information.
So for me, at my parenting is on a very
basic level, it's eye contact, skin on skin responsivity, um
gentleness and it's actually really high responsivity. And on Instagram
(22:11):
there's you know, gentle parenting, there's responsive parents. You know,
just the idea that you're available and attuned. And that
word a tunement is it? I mean it's the word
of tunement, is it? In parenting? But also in marriage
and best friendship and professional relationships when you're collaborating. If
we're not at tuned to each other and we're missing
each other like ships passing, there's not a chance for
(22:32):
that deep connection that will be the you know, the
hot bed for their whole life. I like to think
that my you know, my husband and I both practice
attachment parenting with our son UM and even still I
don't know if it's because I'm the mother or whatever
it is, but like my child looks at me and
I know exactly what he wants and needs, Like he
(22:53):
speaks in a language that maybe not everyone understands, and
I know exactly what he's asking for what he needs,
and it's because I just it's like we're attached to
each other. I know, I know him, yes, Like it's
really crazy, Um yeah, well it's telegraphic, right, It's it's
it's this non verbal language. I mean, I mean, Winter
(23:13):
can raise his eyebrow and I'll be like, oh, he
wants to go to the living room. He oh, he
doesn't like that light? Shut light light up? You know
that's exactly right. And what about this unschooling? Now? What
is this? I'm fascinated and I think this is major
during these times. I mean, we are one our kids
physically in a lot of people's circumstances, can't be in school.
(23:35):
And also we're doing a lot of work on this
podcast on anti racism and also looking at where the
curriculum that I learned. For example, I didn't learn a
lot of things that I should know. And I like
skill skiing, yeah, life skills, social skills, history like history
(23:55):
history has been already been revised to high heaven? Do
we are we gonna find any books with real history?
And no? So so I keep asking experts that come
on the show about, you know, how am I supposed
to school my children? So I'm really curious about what
you're what This unschooling alanttis more than all this business.
First of all, unschooling. When I would bring that up
(24:17):
with people before it was met with I don't know
what you're talking about and I don't care to or
I'd hear, wow, that's the ideal, and we just don't
have the band with you know, and I'd say a
really high percentage of us. I mean, we're all working,
and I have this privileged position where I can be
working at home when I want to and they can
(24:37):
come on tour with me, and you know, we're we're
an attachment village really, So my ideal situation would be
to mimic what I saw in Fiji years ago. I
was walking down the street and I saw these two there,
about nine or ten year old boys, and they were
linked arm and arm linked and just let laughing and
walking down towards the beach. And I turned to them
and I said, where are your grandparents? You know? And
(24:58):
they just did this waving out waving motion with their
finger like they're everywhere. Why would you ask us that,
you know? So so I remember thinking, well, that's the
ideal that you would know that any itch you have,
whether hey, I want to learn about technology, I want
to be really funny right now, you would know that
there would would be a village around you that every
itch could be scratched on some level. So so that's
(25:20):
sort of the philosophical underpinnings. But but in terms of
what the approach is really like, we loosely SOLI and
I loosely reference the multiple intelligence theory by Howard Gardner.
You know, things like musical intelligence, physical intelligence, spatial intelligence,
which is design and aesthetic and composition and painting, and
you know um intra personal, which is the interiority thing
(25:42):
because for some of us who are highly sensitive to
any percent of people are highly sensitive, which just goes
to say that we are more over stimulated by you know,
outward stimuli based on the fact that we're taking in
something like HSPs taken five hundred pieces of information in
a room. You know, I've added comedic intelligence. There's that's true.
(26:06):
It's a real thing. When you come in, when you
come across a comedic genius, you're like, oh, that's a
whole section of genius. It's a thing, yes, And I
see it in them before they can speak. You know.
Like the other day, I was saying something to a
couple of teammates that I was working with on a
zoom call and he I was breastfeeding him and I
said something and I laughed, and he just pulled off
the boob and went, you know, like he's in on
(26:28):
the joke. The joke. So when you so unschooling, you're
looking at your three children could all have genius whatever
that word means to do, but like in different areas,
Like someone is going to be like a Parker genius
(26:48):
Parker genius, and someone's going to be musical, and someone's
going to be building things with their hands. Building is
or someone's going to be like a genius people per
like I'm so good at reading and communicating, you know,
like that's my strong student or whatever it is. And
it is hard to think about how any one school
(27:09):
could well they can't. They can't. They just can't know.
I mean, if you have one person who is in
the sacred position and underpaid um too to teach thirty
people in a room, I mean, how's that even possible?
How could you even corral thirty people in a room?
I couldn't, no way. And I think there's something really
powerful because the attunement and the attachment, the one on
(27:31):
one and what I do with my kids is I
watched their eyes basically, So if I'm invested in them
looking at this candle that I'm holding yet their eyes
are looking over there at the dappling through the tree.
I'm gonna put that candle down and follow the down
they could, you know, my little agenda. So whenever I
have any kind of moment of teaching curriculum agenda, I
(27:52):
know my parents were both teachers, so I also understand
and respect conventional schooling to some degree. Um, you know what,
Ever says to me Sometimes it's like, mom, you know
what if I want to get my doctorate or whatever else,
and I just say, yeah, whatever, whenever you want to
go to school, We're you're going to go to school,
and and if you want to just keep learning outside
of that context, then you will. And I think because
(28:13):
of my direct experience with ongoing education, it has me
see on schooling as certainly daunting, but in a really
cool way, like, Wow, this is a huge thing to
take on because, as you mentioned earlier, it's like, if
ever asks me something wakes up in the middle of
and I asked me a question, I'm not going to
blow him off because this is the time he's going
(28:33):
to learn about that dinosaur or you know. I mean,
sometimes we'll table things, you know, and can we talk
about this tomorrow morning over cereals. Yes, this is a
breakfast conversation. Um, I have this. A lot of us moms,
I think have the I just want to be the
best mom I can be, and I just want to
protect him from any heart, you know. And then I'm
(28:53):
gonna name it up again. Dancy said, he's supposed to
come on this podcast we had. He's been credible, He's
incredible child, He's amazing, and the Brainstorm book on teen
is huge. Okay, I asked Dan. I was like, what
percentage of quote unquote nailing it or being a good
enough parent do we have to be in order to
(29:14):
not like wildly traumatize our children, you know, or or
keep the He said sixty percent, right, Okay. Yeah. When
I heard sixty, I was like, oh man, I could
do sixty. I took I just literally took a breath
and like let my armpits stop sweating. Like. I just
was like, oh, we could do that. I know that
(29:38):
seven and of course failing every day and then and
then when I heard that number, I was like, oh god, yeah,
we could do that. And basically we don't need to
be a d a hundred percent at a time. No,
we want to be consistent ish and constant ish, and
we want to do the best we can. And here's
the thing, you know, John Gottman, Julie Gottman, everyone you
talk about repair life isn't about the fact we're not
(30:00):
going to step at each other's toes or or trigger pain.
It's how are we going to correct it? How are
we going to repair it? So we are in a
culture here of of high responsivity and high apology in
our house. You here, I'm so sorry, and here's what
I would have done differently, And I didn't know. We
say that like there's about ten apologies a day, and
(30:20):
we just kind of my my attempt here is to
just show how cool it is and how relaxing and
how empowering it is to take responsibility. Like if I
broke that, I just go, oh, I broke it. I'm
so sorry. Oh it's okay, sweetie. I'm sad, but you
know that must be so great for I was going
to ask about the three kids and how you introduced
them to each other, because I'm I'm kind of in
(30:42):
a panic of like, oh, I'm about to take my
three family unit plus a dog to four. Um My
son is so it's going to be so great for
him to have a Similka. He's the star of the show,
and he's not keen on sharing and doesn't get a
lot of practice. Right now, I'm the right way the sharing. Ever.
(31:05):
Notice I have a thing around sharing where picture you
and I just met, and that closet behind you looks
really fun. By the way, imagine I just walked into
that closet and I just grabbed a couple of shirts
and you had just bought them, and you've never worn
them before, and I just grabbed them and took them.
That would be like, go to jail's social not okay, nous.
Yet we're we're trying to teach our kids who just
(31:27):
got a new toy that they're supposed to share. And
I what I noticed is people share naturally organically, and
sometimes they don't want to share a kind of like adults.
Sometimes I'll share my burger, my veggie burger with Soli
and sometimes if you come snear mails get away from you.
I don't touch my total sense And I'm like cool,
Like I don't care if Albi doesn't share and says
(31:48):
I don't want to share right now, But I'm not
cool with the latest and I'm going to hit you.
Oh yes, but I will say that if they're going
to put it in words, that's way better than them
just going bam and and it's a rite of passage
for them. Did you say that Elv's three right now? Yeah,
he's gonna be three, it's almost three. I mean, this
(32:09):
is the time where they're learning how to punch, right.
Punching is the greatest. It's just that if we punch
each other, no one's gonna ever want to hang out
with us. You know, we can't. We can't really hit
other people. But boy is it fun to hit. So
I've I've bought a bunch of mats for on EXI
the same. I'm like, you hit that out of the couch,
hit that pillow, hit it. I'm like, show them because
(32:29):
otherwise it will be it just doesn't really connect until
I go like this, honey and a rail on that couch,
you know, and there's dust, Like I do that tonight.
I want you all to think about me being like
Atlantis told me that I have to instruct Albie and
I'm gonna hit model model the punch that is awesome
and gets it out of your body. But doesn't hurt
(32:50):
a human being or an animal or a plant, yes,
or punch my plant. How did you introduce the new children? How?
How how were they there at the birds and so
(33:11):
it was seamless. Did you talk to your children as
soon as you got pregnant that another one was coming?
Did you wait? Okay? So I told ever about Onyx,
and then it became self evident. There's this large belly
my mom hasn't there's some someone kicking in there. He
was neutral about it while I was pregnant. After she came,
(33:34):
he pulled, he pulled him soul and I aside at
one point and said this whole Onyx thing, I'm not
into it, and then he was like and then okay,
so I'm laughing. But it was actually quite heartbreaking. So
please know that it was really hard for me. And
I think the biggest amount of crying I did was
right before Onyx was born, where I was grieving that
(33:55):
I had been alone with my baby boy and it
was us, you know, and then all of a sudden,
and there's gonna be this other person and how am
I going to navigate this? And and the truth is
some moments were fine, and then other moments have you know,
saw me nursing Onyx at night and and Ever screaming
for my attention, and then Onyx screening, and then it
was compounded when Winter came to. So there are moments
(34:18):
I'm not gonna sugarcoat this the thanks that are just
terrible where I'm standing there and I'm nursing Winter and
he's crying, and then Onyx wants me and she's crying,
and then Ever's crying because everyone's crying, and uh, it's
the worst. And I mean there's a tiny bit of
comedy in it, but usually in retrospect the comedy comes in.
But after a while they start to get used to
(34:40):
each other and then that's when they start like wrestling
and oh no, no, you can't touch your face. And
we have the boundaries thing, so stuff, what you're thinking,
what you're feeling, and your body is a no touch.
You can't tell Lonx, but she's thinking you can't. You
can't argue with what someone's feeling. They're just feeling that
feeling and don't touch their stuff. So it's so genius.
(35:03):
I read this in your I think it was well
listed on case here, but these four boundaries are great
where did you did you make that up? I did
because I thought about where are the boundaries really? I
mean if there were, if it more adult conversation, I'd
say in physical sexual right, but just saying physical you can't.
You can't touch me, you can't grab my ass, you
can't you know um. And there's there's stages of development
(35:25):
where they need to be omnipotent, where they need the
whole world to revolve around them and it's appropriate. And
then what people have called the Terrible twos, I actually
think they're it's the three. Yeah, it was a joke
that was fine too, was Kumbaya fine? I'm looking at
three is like, holy crap. Sometimes my husband and I
(35:47):
look at our son and we're like, is he back today?
Like is he? Adam will be like did he wake
up this morning? What are his eyes look like? Does
he look like our son? And I'm like, he's still
in one of these is among us and they're experimenting
also with realizing that they are separate beings and that
the world doesn't revolve around them as much as they thought.
(36:07):
So that's a pretty big grief. Protest was like, oh no,
I can't tell me about soul I is you've said
he's like a modern What did we say, he's a
modern man? He's a modern man? Man? That was it? Yes, man,
that's the world. I knew. It was a complicated one partner.
(36:36):
I don't know, but okay, he's a modern man who's
very very involved. My husband is too. Was it inherent
when you fell in love that you knew this guy
was going to really show the hell up? I saw
on your Instagram you just went on a date. Well done,
haven't That was the best hour and a half I've
had in three years. What we actually talked, we actually
(36:58):
finished a sentence. Oh my god, amazing. That's gonna guys
are gonna you got a whole three years because we
don't need to see each other again. Yeah, like that's fighting. Um. Yeah,
So going on the date was really important. And I
think what what I loved about Soli I kind of
dated against type because I was often dating people who
(37:19):
were not comfortable with the part of me that was
in the driver's seat. I'm an alpha. I love to
make decisions. I love being a leader, I love being
a CEO, I love managing, you know, so I would
date a lot of people who were more interested in
the conventional stereotypical like man alpha woman beta. So I
had to start dating against type. And then I researched,
(37:40):
like a like a rabbit hole chaser, what kinds of
marriages that were modeling what I wanted? Right, So I'd
seen so many that we're modeling what would never work
for me. If I wanted to keep a career, stay expressed,
be an activist, be of service, be a homemaker, and
keep keep all these forms of self expression alive. There
(38:00):
is no way I could have been pardon me, with
a with a conventional heterosexual man running off, bringing home
the proverbial bacon, and then me bringing up the three kids.
It's just that this, this lifetime is not that was
not gonna work. So basically I dated against type. And
his mom held down two full time jobs and his
(38:21):
dad did a lot of the heavy lifting around parenting.
So there was nothing strange about this too, Soula. In fact,
it was normal, And I think had we attempted to
do the other version, the more sort of stereotypical version,
I think he wouldn't have been into that. So he loves,
he loves the team thing. He loves that we are
I call it proximity snugs like that. We're just around
each other. Like my three kids right now know that
(38:43):
if they really needed me, they just come out here.
Of course, so it's the best. My kid too, I'm like,
he's during a nap. I'm like, you know, like you
need me come into the closet. Yeah, he could come
into my he knows where I am. But I feel
very similar when I for you know, Adam, my husband
and I we've been together for fifteen years and we
both started super struggling artists, and um, when I got
my first like a bout of success. I can't tell
(39:04):
you how many of his guy friends took him out
to lunch to ask him if he's okay, And my
husband was like what why, like yeah, because he had
no clue what the hell they were talking about, Like
he was like, what is even happening? Like, and now
we have this big joke. I don't do the cooking
and Adam does the cooking, and my child, this all
(39:25):
of quarantine has been like right now, I think my
son is very attached to me because he knows I'm
having another baby and he prefers me in some situations,
and so he'll say it is yellow, Daddy and say, Daddy,
get back in the kitchen because because Adam cooks most
of the time. And I'm like, this is amazing, throwing
(39:46):
everything on its face. I love it. You and your
husband are both musicians. I just got to ask, like,
because I can't imagine a rock star's life, your kids
come on tour with you everything. That was the plan
for this tour that's not no longer. Yeah, and I
had tickets for the Eilwall bomb, so man, man, let's
let's just say it's happening again, and we're um, there
(40:07):
are some postmonement dates already set. But you know, we'll
see what happens when we're making plans, see what life
has faith. But but normally you would take them on
the road with you. Yeah, they come with us everywhere.
And we actually were in Europe before COVID. We were
there for a month, so that was our first taste of,
you know, three kids on the road. And there were
(40:28):
some former tour managers whom I had worked with, who said, oh, Andice,
you're never going to be able to do this, and
I there's a part of me that agreed with them,
and I think we can do it. We'll just make
it work, you know. I mean sometimes I'm breastfeeding and
then I run on stage and and sometimes the kids
are backstage. I remember one time I was taking a
flight from the hotel to go do a show and
(40:48):
Onyx was particularly like, mom, don't go, and I said, Okay,
come with me, and she just jumped into my arms
and literally was in my arms all night on the plane,
on the way home everything and she just had she
had a blast. So don't you think they learn so
much through social interaction? Yeah, I just think they learned
so much. I had the same thing. I was. Yeah,
(41:10):
I've shot all over certain things, and I've come up
against some you know, heads of things. Never in Shonda Land,
thank god, Shanna Rhymes is like the greatest place to
ever work in the world. As far as like, oh
you want to bring your kids, Yeah, yeah, yeah, We'll
set up a whole, a nursery. We got a whole,
we got people, and you can breastfeed whenever you want,
(41:30):
Like it's incredible. But that's not exactly how it is everywhere.
Um and I usually have to fight, like I'll be like,
oh no, no, you don't understand. Like I've never been
away from my kid for more than a night. So like,
that's not that's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.
So we got to figure out how we're all going exactly. Um,
that's an attachment mom right there by the way there. Um. Quickly,
(41:53):
as we wrap up, I want to ask you about
spirituality with your kids, meditating with your kids. It's have
you been able to hold onto any of that in COVID?
I know it's a big part of your life. Is
it a big part of your kids lives? Um? We have,
it's without it being wildly formalized. There are times where
I'll sit with my kids and I have a ton
(42:14):
of um, what do you call it? Bowls, sound bowles,
what do you call sound? I don't even know what
to call them, yet I use them, um, and the
Tibetan bowls. So I have those all around the floor
in my room, and little music makers and books and
so my altar is literally at this point become a
family altar. And I remember when that first happened. I
(42:35):
just thought, my last vestige of things for me has
been eaten by the system, you know. So I was
like horrified. Then I thought, well, isn't this amazing? Though
there's everything super I mean, it's it's integrated. I just
had to come up with maybe I'll build a little
thing on the roof of the house. And that's real.
Go hi. It's like we're um just to get ten
(42:56):
minutes sometimes or two minutes not you know, it's I
haven't showered without some cute little hand knocking on the
shower door, and yeah, yeah, it's like so um so.
In terms of the spiritual practice, we do things like, hey,
you know, if I'm watching an animated show with Ever
as an example, I'll say, oh, he he really thinks
(43:16):
they're you're they're divided there, that's too bad. Or oh
he's he's actually he's really upset and instead of saying
he's sad, he's saying he's angry. Isn't that interesting? Or
and and you know, gratitude is a big sort of
epicenter of the spiritual practice for us, realizing that, you know,
conflict is growth trying to happen. Yesterday, Onyx was saying,
why are you and Ever picker me? You know, I said, oh,
(43:37):
we're just kind of having a heated exchanged and conflict
is okay. It's just we're conflict. Means we're trying to
grow together, you know. And she was like, oh, so
I don't know if the answer I should write that down.
I'm a this is good. This see this is really
good Jim James dot com. This is really good. So good.
But spiritual practice. I mean we've had funny moments where
(43:57):
I'd be in front of my I have little altars
that I that I bought in Japan years ago that
I just have all my stuff and it's all my kids,
you know, us posterity stuff. And so ever, once was
with me and I was I lit a candle, so
I was sitting there and he just started oming and
I don't I'm not an omer. I love home, but
(44:18):
I don't know, and uh, he just started Oh you know.
He was about a year and a half old. So
I think it's just you know, they're like, oh, this room,
this is the room we we we get quiet in.
And to say that they are able to meditate is
just not true because no, but you bring in a
moment of breath or a moment of a sound to body.
(44:38):
So I do a lot of um squeezing and just
you know, this is your eyelid. This is your gluteous maximus.
This is your elbow, This is your vagina, This is
your toe, this is your knee. So there's a lot
of like um anatomy lessons, trying to neutralize the genitals
for sure, and just neutralize anything where there's usually shame
(44:58):
and beauty into it before or they even before they
can even speak, right, So naked as often as possible
if it's weather allowing. Yeah, just so, so a lot
of the spiritual for me, my spirituality is so inextricably
linked with all the human stuff, Like you know those
that transpersonal psychology era. I think it was like in
the seventies where it started to slowly become more integrated
(45:20):
and popular as models to bring in science and neurobiology
and um attachment theory and you know, a conflict resolution,
you know, like just just so many amazing resources out there.
And then at the end of the day, it's just
an intuitive thing. You know, we all to some degree,
those of us who have had neglect or abuse in
our past, we want to snip that legacy of abuse
(45:42):
and not pass it on to our children. So I'm
constantly in therapy to going like what am I projecting,
and some of it because I'm an EmPATH, I feel
they're feelings so deeply, so it's like, by the end
of any given day, they're so beautifully emotional, and we're
in an environment where I want to let them know
that they can feel the emotion all the way through
you to the end, that it won't be snipped and
then stored in their bodies. But I am so depleted
(46:05):
because everyone is so freaking emotional around here. I'm containing
so fiercely all day long that at night, I mean,
thank god, there's no camera. Do you do for self care?
This has also been Oh that's good. That's been a
big COVID mom thing too, of like, how are we
supposed to, yeah, care for everybody in our home front
(46:29):
um and their anxiety and the state of the world
and the state of our you know, of America, and
but how do you take care of you? Because again,
like I keep reading, like, you can't show up if
you don't take care of yourself. That's not true. Horrible
at that, Yeah, that's not true. That's complete. Yeah, because
I don't take care of myself at all, and I'm
(46:50):
shown up for everybody else. I haven't taken a bath. Yeah.
I also I don't like them, but I haven't met.
When people are like are you meditating? Are you journaling,
I'm like, no, guys, loss of water. Yeah, Like I'm
like a fisk iced green tea is the biggest treat
I've had in days. Because I was like, I am
talking to Alattis Morrison. No, I, um, you know you
(47:14):
know that analogy or that addit or whatever you call it. Um,
the airplane thing flying down? You play yours? If I
hear if I, if I hear that one more, because
it's because you know yourself that's true. Well, here's the thing. Ideally,
it's true. Ideally it's in a perfect world, perfect whatever
that even means. Um and and it shows to be true.
(47:36):
Like I'll turn to my son ever and say, listen,
I am cranky mom right now, and my behavior is horrible, book,
And if I go to my room for ten minutes,
I'm going to come out with a huge smile on
my face so excited to do what you want to do.
But if I try to do it now, I'm just
going to be the worst. And he's like, enjoy your time,
enjoy your ten minutes. He sets his timer so that
(47:57):
so that he can feel that reliability. I'll just say,
set your timer for seven minutes. You know. Sometimes I
even say, set your timer for two minutes. That's how
diary it gets to give me two minutes. But the
self care thing, to be honest, the question for me
becomes with that much containment all day long, because there's
for me and likely for you too, there's professional boundary containment,
(48:18):
there's I mean, there's constant containment as a so called
mature mom adult. So at night it's like, how do
I you know, when no one's around and it's silent um,
Sometimes I just have to stretch get the bolsters out,
you know. And also I have this sort of wedding
smile on my face all day, so at night I
have to make you I just looked not happy because
(48:42):
everyone's looking at me, right, baby, Everyone's looky to see
if mommy's happy. So I don't want to vent your
eyes and face ablaze for your children to keep their
eyes and faces ablaze, And so at night you really
just have to like the opposite of a blaze like
face mask. Yes, and I cracked myself up because I'll
literally walk around with this scowl on my face because
(49:05):
that's a big no note. During the day, you don't
want to walk around with a big scowl. So so
at night is when everything you know, compensatory lee sort
of comes to life. Bolsters are my best friends, pardon
of me. So that's like soft ones, hard ones, medium
soft hard ones. Um, I have a hot mat. It's
slightly crazy, but it's it's saved my life. A biomat.
(49:26):
It's just hot amethyst crystals and you just lay on,
just even for two minutes before I go to sleep,
because it's like a hug, right, because this mom's it's like,
where's my bosom? I want to I want to sneak
into someone's armpit and fall asleep there too, you know.
And my husband and I are just like barely holding
it together. You just off down the hall of meeting,
(49:47):
you know. So Mothering the Mother was was a sweet
book that I really enjoyed. But the idea of mothering
the mother, I don't know that mothering the mother it's
a you know, And I think what happened is that
there used to be such a villageful now us right,
So the grandparents, Grandma was just taking care of the mom,
and then they take the baby, and and now because
we're so isolated and then triplely compounded by pandemic time.
(50:10):
I mean, so I think about women postpartum. I mean,
I'm included in this, but I do. There's some people
here who I can lean on a little bit, thank God.
But I think about people who are super isolated, and
it's just not how we were meant to raise our
families and our children. No. I keep thinking about those
the boys in Fiji, and I'm just like, that's it,
(50:31):
um very quickly. What do you hope to teach your
kids the most in life? You know? I mean I
think about the stages of development, So I would say safety, freedom,
self expression, and competence and and cutting slack for our
(50:51):
own human nous, feeling the feelings all the way through,
and that we need each other, that we're relational creatures,
and that we need each other and we'll die without
each other. M hmm. That's so beautiful, I am. I mean,
I don't even know it. Is there any other guys?
If you have not watched the Ablaze video, if you
(51:14):
have not gotten the album, such Pretty Forks in the Road,
for all of our moms listening, I know you weren't
speaking to me personally, but I felt like you were
speaking and that's that is the gift of your talent
um and how you reach all of us through twenty
five plus years of a career. I mean, that's bananas, um.
(51:40):
And also to just be able to see someone do
what you do and like, I was just so inspired
by all the alpha stuff and running a business and
being a mom and and showing us those things because
I think it's really important for us women to see that. Yes,
and you're doing it beautifully. Yeah, I mean that's our
fix you right now, they're like wide trauma. Yeah, that's right.
(52:08):
Thank you so much, Alanis Morrison for coming on Katie's Crib.
I wish you the best of luck and I cannot
wait to see the tour when it comes. I had
tickets for Jagged Little Pill. The soundtrack of the Broadway
show is the greatest thing I've ever sung at the
top of my mouth. Um, it's so great. I'm so
(52:31):
inspired by you. I really think you're the shit. I
don't have words like you do, but I just think
you're incredible. Oh my gosh. Well you're an inspiration to
me too, and I'm I'm so happy to be on
this show, and I just want to thank you for
all the women that you're empathizing with and validating and
giving hope to and just letting everyone know that it's okay.
(52:53):
We're especially this unschooling time, like so many parents I
know are just taking our own asses, and I'm just
my first thought is, just totally cut yourself from slack.
Your children are going to keep learning, They're gonna thrive,
they might even learn more. Dreams my kids learning way more.
I'm convinced, like he's never been so happy to have
both parents like kicking around, avail, attentive, and the education
(53:18):
is so catered to their you know, their impulse and
their curiosity. I mean, there's nothing better than that. So
I would just say to any parent, I just cut
yourself some slack and know that everything is going to
be okay. It is going to be okay. It's gonna
be okay. Guys, Yes, News Report, It's gonna be okay.
(53:41):
Thank you Alanis Morrison for coming on Katie's Crib You guys,
thank you so much for listening. Tell your friends subscribe,
Email me any questions, comments, concerns. Katie's Crib at Shonda
land dot com. Katie Scream is a production of Shonda
(54:01):
land Audio in partnership with I heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
I Want to Watch Watch
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to Katie's Crib.
I'm Katie Lows, and I've got a lot of energy
today because we have got seven time Grammy Award winning
(00:22):
singer songwriter mother of three Atlantis Morissett on the podcast today.
And if you can't tell from my voice, I am
losing my mind. I got to spend an hour with Atlantis,
and um, after I stopped all my hormonal crying and
freaking out, UM, I just talked to her about like
(00:44):
being a mom you guys, like she's three kids, about unschooling,
about attachment parenting, about her postpartum depression, her home births. Guys,
she is a wealth of mommy knowledge, and UM, I
just can't wait for you guys to listen. So here
she is, Atlantis Morrisset. I am so honored, thrilled, emotional
(01:11):
to meet you. I mean, yeah, you really you're bringing
up a lot in me. I'm sorry and you're welcome.
I'm also it's really crazy, but I'm pregnant with my
second child. Probably I would probably thank you. I would
probably be able to cover better that I'm on the
(01:32):
verge of tears meeting Atlantis Morrisset people. But I that's
not available. That's not available to me on this day.
I just think you are. I mean, obviously, you're a
musical genius, you're a visionary, you're an icon. I'm talking
about Atlantis Morrisset people. Um, but for me, you're an
(01:54):
incredible mom. And we are a podcast talking to ms
and I just can't believe this new album. Um, such
pretty forks in the road and the ablaze video again
me being a hormonal pregnant woman. Oh my god, what
(02:14):
are you trying to do to me? I can't even
get tested myself. So when I'm when I'm singing it,
I literally have to think of baseball or something, because
if I really tune into what I'm singing, I'm a mess.
It's unbelievable. And your your baby Winter turns one tomorrow.
We can't believe it. I can't. Thanks for saying that
(02:36):
he's the keutest. We needed an e name for my
first We wanted any name for my firstborn. And we're
just something you do in the Jewish faith and we ever,
I was like, Atlantis Morris, that's oldest is ever that
should be on our list, but we are not cool enough.
So what's your name? Well, we ended up going with
(02:58):
another No, that's what we should have put that there. Um,
we ended up going with a different deceased grandparents with
an a letter and his name is Albie and he's
going to be three. Um. But I want to get
into when I was drafting up all the questions you
(03:21):
could sit and ask Atlantis Morrisset about her mothering and
you as a human. The pages are endless, so I
wanted to not take so much advantage of your time.
But we are marking the twenty anniversary of Jagged Little Pill.
We just did that in June. Your life, my life,
all of our listeners lives, so I feel like we're
(03:42):
very in a similar mom age. Group looks very different
from Jagged Little Pill. Talking about it, it's exactly the same.
I think this new album such pretty forks in the road.
What's so cool to me about it is that you
didn't compart like this. Atlanta is like, you're just not
putting your motherhood aside. Yeah, It's like, well you can't,
(04:08):
but I feel like women do, right. I don't know.
I think is a real thing, and I understand why
women do it. I just like, I'm looking at you.
You're so beautiful, you look so good. I just like
you're such goals in terms of like being a full
rounded artist that's speaking about where you are in your
(04:29):
life as a woman. Now. It's like, I'm not trying
to be my year ago self. I'm not trying to
be who knows where the hell we're going to be.
You know what inspired this album, Let's start there. Obviously
it's your kids. Um obviously your children. Was it a
long process in writing these these songs. So I wrote
(04:53):
that song before Winter was born, actually a year before
Winter was born, so it had the two choruses about
Ever my son, and Onyx my daughter. And then we
moved up to just outside the Bay Area after having
lived in Hollywood for twenty five years, so that was
a huge adjustment. And I was pregnant during that time.
And you know, basically every PPD doctor in the world says,
(05:15):
if there's one thing I suggest you not doing while
you are pregnant is a big move, And I'm like, okay, check,
did thou not the smartest timing to be moving? But
um so when I was writing the first part of
the record, I was living in Malibu, so we were
recording it all right on the ocean, which was really
kind of cinematic and idyllic um environment. And then I
(05:36):
wrote the last couple of songs, and I wrote the
song Reckoning in just outside the Bay Area, and then
I thought, you know, winters here we the guy needs
a chorus, so I erased an extroverse and put a chorus.
That final chorus is about winter, and that's what QQ
sobbing c. It's a kind of love that is really
(05:58):
hard to articulate. It's almost like it's you either know,
this version of love, because we know there's the dopamine
from infatuation, there's there's bliss, there's ecstasy, but this kind
of love for these creatures is really hard to put
into words. It's hard, you know, and I live to
chase putting everything into words. And we were just saying
(06:19):
before you came on, I said, I'm so petrified to
interview Alanis Morrisset. I mean, but because you're you're such
a poet and a lyricist and so incredible with language,
and I'm like a bumbling, fumbling ass, not quite but
I love being an actor because I get to say
a like I get to say Shanna Rhyme's words, you
know what I mean? Like you know, like everything. I'm
(06:41):
just like, let someone else write me out of this situation.
I can't do this, but if anyone can write about
the love of a child, I can at least attempt it.
You can attempt it. Did you know right away that
you wanted the music video to feature your three kids
and soul? Lie? I had no idea. You know, I'm
the I'm the opposite of a stage mom. So my
parents are begging me to exploit them. Please, I'm like, no,
(07:04):
you will have absolute permission to make any choices you want,
free will when you turn fifty seven. And not a
month before when they came time to shoot the video,
we're basically still in lockdown and you know, pandemic time,
so we're like, what is this? What are we going
to do? How are we going to do this? So
you like just shot this video a few days ago?
(07:24):
What a fucking gift for us? Oh my gosh, you're
so sweet? Like what so like this video could have
existed in a completely different way pree covid had there
been the seventy people crewmates and and uh you know
the team that usually we arrive and shoot a video.
There's about seventy five of us in this time there
(07:46):
we're not and we're the kids completely down with it
because I know we have similar parenting styles. I don't
really for you. No, I'm not forcing my kid to
hit their mark, you know what I mean, Like that's
never going to happen about stage moms. So how was
it just a free for all? And and that's why
it feels so spirited and free. Oh that's so sweet. There.
(08:07):
It was a little structured that, you know, the sense
of what the scope was and what our goals were.
That was structured. But you know how it goes with
structure with people under twenty people under thirty at this point, um,
good luck. So basically, we we kept them in the
scenes to the degree that they were happy about it,
and there were moments where you know, they weren't happy,
(08:28):
and I said, okay, we're done this one cut, We're done,
no no pain around shooting for my family. You're you're
a very famous musician. What does that mean for your
kids putting them out there? I mean, and it's a
very personal question for a lot of people, how do
you feel about that? Well, because who I am is
so attachment, inextricably linked to my family, I'm open to
(08:51):
having some things include all of us, but I'm hyper
discerning my mama bear like any other mama, I'm super protective,
so you know, if it's a fun thing, I'll share.
But I really think there's a difference between privacy and secrecy.
I have no desire to keep my family a secret,
but privacy is loving and protective. So I definitely have
(09:13):
the guardian at the gate thing um. But at the
same time, I'm not going to deprive us of having
a ball, you know, and they happen to the enjoy it.
You know, that makes perfect sense. Now, there's a big
age gap you I've read this. There's an age gap
between ever and Onyx due to miscarriages in between. I've
also had miscarriages and it it. I know You've done
(09:34):
a bunch of interviews about that and the mom community.
Thanks you for your openness on the topic. When did
you know you were ready again for moms listening who
might be in that situation? I just never stopped. I've
just been on this like crazy mission for ten years.
The mission was. You know, I, before having met SOULI
(09:54):
and before having met my kids, you know, this was
my It was just a driving force. I've had this
maternal energy. I know a lot of women friends of
mine who don't. They have no desire, and I love
them for it. I happened to be one of those
women that when I was very little, I had the
dolls and I was, you know, feeding the dolls, and
so that maternal thing was just there. And I have
(10:16):
two brothers, so I think there was some unconscious part
of me that just wanted to have three kids. But
when it became a little bit more difficult, uh, you know,
just randomly choosing the three numbers, I just gave up.
But I kept, you know, I kept in contact with
what I felt was just you know, the existential procreative
imperative was still pretty fiery in me. So I just
(10:37):
kept chasing, like an ambitious little like it just like
it was out there. Yeah, you're just like you're it
was like a calling and you've always known three, whether
or not that's because it was your personal experience or
a number you just really like, yeah, and who cares? Right? Like, Okay,
so three and if it wasn't to be three, I
didn't it would have been fine. So yeah, and you
(11:00):
had home births with all three of them, which has
been a topic that has been massive during quarantine. UM,
I have seen just a lot of friends make that
choice that may maybe wouldn't have previously for many reasons. Again,
did you always know you wanted to have a home birth? Like,
as the time came to find care, you know, prenatal care,
(11:23):
I just met with a ton of people, and I,
you know, there were a big nose. Cheryl Richardson taught
me a long time ago if it's if it's not
a percent yes, it's a no. So basically I'd meet
all these you know, lovely, well well reputable doctors and
um just wasn't a match. And then I started talking
with midwives and I thought, Okay, this this feels this
(11:43):
feels like yes, and this feels like everything, every part
of this process is being honored. There's love, there's tenderness,
there's there's a maternal energy already in place in this
care context. It was perfect for me. And then as
I was giving birth the first time at home with ever,
I just remember looking up because it was too late
(12:04):
by the end to go to any hospital or to leave.
So I just remember thinking of all the other women
a that have already given birth the kick butt and
they're on the other side. Then I was thinking about
all the women at the exact same time who were
giving birth with me around the planet, and I was
just really calling upon those women because I was like,
this is a this is a turning point where I
(12:25):
you know, I can't change my mind. You know what,
you know, I forget it. I changed changed my mind.
You're like, I can't call in all the drugs. Now,
this this is what I chose. But the good part
is in having prepped. If you can even prep for
home birth, you barely can. But I mean someone would
argue with me that you can prepare, and I did.
I did all the hypno birth. I did everything you can,
(12:47):
especially that first baby, right. I was just like I
read home into it. I took so many classes and
meditative things, and honestly, until you're looking down the baron
all the whole situation and Daryl, you can't know it.
You can't. It's really wild. The best for the closest
I've come to describing the birth experience is an eighteen
(13:10):
wheeler careening through your body and then kind of ripping
back in and then driving back out again, and then see.
And that's why you're such a poet and so great
with words, because that is what it feels like. We're
your second and third home birds easier. Um, they were wilder.
So my daughter was born at home and our midwife
(13:31):
didn't make it because she was so fine. That's right.
I read that so so literally. Was your midwife, your dula,
your baby catcher, your husband, your life partner, you're daddy,
you're everything? Yes, of ever, yes, And were you afraid, like,
of course you can't know what he's doing. Well, the
(13:53):
best part about arts haven't been born in such a
short amount of time. And I think it was about
I think of my water broken. I woke up at
twelve seventeen and she was here at am, basically when
he was scared. It was perfect timing between us. When
he was scared, I just kicked into coach, you know, like, no,
she's going to come. You don't have to manipulate this.
She's coming on the next one. And when I would
(14:15):
freak out, like he would tell me how to breathe,
and he at one point said, get on your hands
and needs. Get on your hands and niece, okay, And
then she came right out. And then we waited about
thirty five minutes and then everyone came. But the question
is for fucking craziest to choose my language thing I've
ever heard in my life, Like, I mean, I just can't.
I mean, I guess because I'm I'm putting my husband
(14:38):
in soul lives shoes that would just not but they
rise my husband. He's the greatest, most wonderful thing. But
he faints that he's a fainter. I think I would
have been alone. Well, the good news is you still
could have done it. I could have squatted and caught
my own baby women do. Um wow, that's I can't
(15:00):
even imagine looking in my husband's eyes after that, knowing
that you shared something like that together. Yes, no, we were.
We were both gob smacked for quite a while. We
still are. I still don't believe that three humans were
in my body when I look at them and I
hang out with them and they're so funny and charming
and you know wild Just wait a minute, you were
(15:23):
in Okay, There's just no way I can figure that
one out or or you know, make sort of some
conscious grasp of that it's just too big for me.
It's too big, but I love it. In an interview,
you um also we're very honest for your postpartum depression,
and you said, quote it's like being covered in tar
(15:46):
unquote again the beautiful words of Atlantis Morrist that are perfect.
This is very accurate description. And what I'm curious about
is I had um. I guess they call it postpartum
blue after my first because it mad in that six weeks.
But I was not thrilled. I did not take to mothering,
(16:07):
which was a shock. I was a nanny for ten years.
I love kids, and my own child came home and
I was like a zombie and crying endlessly. And my
husband was like, oh shit, my my wife's going to
get on a plane and get a false identity and
I'm going to be here by myself. That's it. I'm
going to pay attention. But did you do anything to
(16:27):
prepare differently for number two and number three? Because I'm
looking down the barrel of number two and I'm trying
to prepare myself better and I'm talking about blues or
potential postpartum activity, both okay, um, do you have a
history of depression in your family? Yes, okay, so it's
a possibility. And I um, unbeknownst to me after my
(16:50):
third experience with postpartum activity, because it isn't just depression,
let's be honest, there's a list of twenty seven things
that one's a hard one to chase with words too.
So with ONYX, it came back and it was actually worse.
So I've heard the depression. So after ever and after ONYX,
it was it was depression. And I'm a high functioning
(17:12):
depressed person, which I'm not wildly proud of saying, but
survival for survival reasons. It was fortuitous that I could
somehow still function through it. But it was, you know,
not a lovely experienced quote unquote. Uh. And then after
Winter was born, I was prepared with bioidentical hormones because
I thought it was pretty much just thyroid and hormones,
(17:33):
and hey, I can head that off at the past
with doing bioidenticals, But what I forgot is that I
can't breastfeed and be taking bioidenticals that bring my hormones
into a category of homeostasis whatever that means. The milk
supply would go away. So for me, in some ways,
I feel like I'm tolerating this, you know, activity, postpartum activity,
(17:55):
because I want a breastfeed and I have a sense
and I could be wrong on this one, but I
have a sense that because both times last time, this
is what happened once I stopped breastfeeding and I adjust
the hormones and you know, basically I'm not up all
night feeding on demand. I think it will things will
shift a little bit. But I'm on medication. I love medication.
(18:16):
I have first time, I waited a year in four months,
and I remember having spoken to a doctor and she said,
I said, if I white knuckle through this as I
do with everything, and I'm like, if I sold her
through this, can I just kind of get through it?
And she said, actually no, honey, it gets worse. So
as soon as I heard that, I was like, okay,
so what what am I taking? You know? So I
(18:37):
tried everything. I tried alexa, pros alexa. We tried everything,
and prozac was the winner for me. And but it
does all these side you know, not the most fun,
but again, I get to breastfeed. So I met something
for you that some women I've talked to you who
struggled with p P d UM, they knew in their
(18:59):
heart that if they had the choice to go on
let's say, a different drug that would stop breastfeeding, they
were going to be even more depressed because breastfeeding was
so such a goal of theirs and something that they
enjoyed and loved so much with their children that they
were like, what's the lesser of all evils? It's like,
what do we choose here? And it's so different for
every mom because some moms, first of all, you can
(19:21):
nail attachment quote unquote just by eye contact, skin nurturings,
you know. So I mean, if you can't breastfeed, you're
you can still nail attachment. It's like, of course, so
of course you'll always be snuggling and you know, and
getting to know each other. And that's the most charming
thing that I thought about today when I was talking
with winter Um in our own little language this morning,
(19:42):
and I just thought, Wow, I'm I'm getting to know
you like you're becoming someone I know now. You know,
I've known ever for nine and some nine and a
half years. You know, I know what you know, and
I've only known winter for a year, and and so
it's it's it is like a process of getting to
know a person you've just met. It's way more complicated
and more no more death to it than that. But
(20:04):
but there's an element of me just going, wow, it's
just been such a pleasure getting to know you. You go,
it's amazing. You know. I have friends that are like whatever,
second kid, third kid, you're just less worried that they're
(20:25):
going to die at every second. And so your chiller,
their chiller isn't even more so with the third Yes,
my chiller. But also but at this point, you know,
and I used to hear people saying, oh gosh, now
we're outnumbered, and I'm like, yeah, that's exactly right. You're outnumbered.
So it can't just be mom and dad saving the
day or where mom and mom or dad or dad
(20:46):
is just like we need a village now there needs
to be the village needs to grow. And we also
have been unschooling, so we have Yeah, we need to
talk about Okay, I want to go back to first
explain for anyone listening. I already know, but let's give
a little contact what attachment parenting is. And that's something
you've practiced with all your kids. It's a twenty four
hour gig. Yeah. Like so, so it was very intuitive
(21:08):
and very you know, the least intellectual thing choice I
could ever make, and I truly didn't. I'd always understood
attachment theory, but attachment parenting and attachment theory we're kind
of like church and state and they. But I had
a I'm just going to name drop a little bit,
but I was talking with Dan Siegel and I said
this attachment parenting. God, I was like, what if the
(21:30):
attachment parents isn't the agenda? If it's if if it's
true that parenting is one of the maybe the only,
in my opinion, the biggest activism there is because it's
where we're instilling values and perceptions and racism or not racism.
You know. This is where it's all the all the
seas are being planted, you know. And of course we're
(21:51):
dealing with the nature as well. So you've got the
beautiful temperament that you're just going to get to know
and see what works, and then you're adding all this information.
So for me, at my parenting is on a very
basic level, it's eye contact, skin on skin responsivity, um
gentleness and it's actually really high responsivity. And on Instagram
(22:11):
there's you know, gentle parenting, there's responsive parents. You know,
just the idea that you're available and attuned. And that
word a tunement is it? I mean it's the word
of tunement, is it? In parenting? But also in marriage
and best friendship and professional relationships when you're collaborating. If
we're not at tuned to each other and we're missing
each other like ships passing, there's not a chance for
(22:32):
that deep connection that will be the you know, the
hot bed for their whole life. I like to think
that my you know, my husband and I both practice
attachment parenting with our son UM and even still I
don't know if it's because I'm the mother or whatever
it is, but like my child looks at me and
I know exactly what he wants and needs, Like he
(22:53):
speaks in a language that maybe not everyone understands, and
I know exactly what he's asking for what he needs,
and it's because I just it's like we're attached to
each other. I know, I know him, yes, Like it's
really crazy, Um yeah, well it's telegraphic, right, It's it's
it's this non verbal language. I mean, I mean, Winter
(23:13):
can raise his eyebrow and I'll be like, oh, he
wants to go to the living room. He oh, he
doesn't like that light? Shut light light up? You know
that's exactly right. And what about this unschooling? Now? What
is this? I'm fascinated and I think this is major
during these times. I mean, we are one our kids
physically in a lot of people's circumstances, can't be in school.
(23:35):
And also we're doing a lot of work on this
podcast on anti racism and also looking at where the
curriculum that I learned. For example, I didn't learn a
lot of things that I should know. And I like
skill skiing, yeah, life skills, social skills, history like history
(23:55):
history has been already been revised to high heaven? Do
we are we gonna find any books with real history?
And no? So so I keep asking experts that come
on the show about, you know, how am I supposed
to school my children? So I'm really curious about what
you're what This unschooling alanttis more than all this business.
First of all, unschooling. When I would bring that up
(24:17):
with people before it was met with I don't know
what you're talking about and I don't care to or
I'd hear, wow, that's the ideal, and we just don't
have the band with you know, and I'd say a
really high percentage of us. I mean, we're all working,
and I have this privileged position where I can be
working at home when I want to and they can
(24:37):
come on tour with me, and you know, we're we're
an attachment village really, So my ideal situation would be
to mimic what I saw in Fiji years ago. I
was walking down the street and I saw these two there,
about nine or ten year old boys, and they were
linked arm and arm linked and just let laughing and
walking down towards the beach. And I turned to them
and I said, where are your grandparents? You know? And
(24:58):
they just did this waving out waving motion with their
finger like they're everywhere. Why would you ask us that,
you know? So so I remember thinking, well, that's the
ideal that you would know that any itch you have,
whether hey, I want to learn about technology, I want
to be really funny right now, you would know that
there would would be a village around you that every
itch could be scratched on some level. So so that's
(25:20):
sort of the philosophical underpinnings. But but in terms of
what the approach is really like, we loosely SOLI and
I loosely reference the multiple intelligence theory by Howard Gardner.
You know, things like musical intelligence, physical intelligence, spatial intelligence,
which is design and aesthetic and composition and painting, and
you know um intra personal, which is the interiority thing
(25:42):
because for some of us who are highly sensitive to
any percent of people are highly sensitive, which just goes
to say that we are more over stimulated by you know,
outward stimuli based on the fact that we're taking in
something like HSPs taken five hundred pieces of information in
a room. You know, I've added comedic intelligence. There's that's true.
(26:06):
It's a real thing. When you come in, when you
come across a comedic genius, you're like, oh, that's a
whole section of genius. It's a thing, yes, And I
see it in them before they can speak. You know.
Like the other day, I was saying something to a
couple of teammates that I was working with on a
zoom call and he I was breastfeeding him and I
said something and I laughed, and he just pulled off
the boob and went, you know, like he's in on
(26:28):
the joke. The joke. So when you so unschooling, you're
looking at your three children could all have genius whatever
that word means to do, but like in different areas,
Like someone is going to be like a Parker genius
(26:48):
Parker genius, and someone's going to be musical, and someone's
going to be building things with their hands. Building is
or someone's going to be like a genius people per
like I'm so good at reading and communicating, you know,
like that's my strong student or whatever it is. And
it is hard to think about how any one school
(27:09):
could well they can't. They can't. They just can't know.
I mean, if you have one person who is in
the sacred position and underpaid um too to teach thirty
people in a room, I mean, how's that even possible?
How could you even corral thirty people in a room?
I couldn't, no way. And I think there's something really
powerful because the attunement and the attachment, the one on
(27:31):
one and what I do with my kids is I
watched their eyes basically, So if I'm invested in them
looking at this candle that I'm holding yet their eyes
are looking over there at the dappling through the tree.
I'm gonna put that candle down and follow the down
they could, you know, my little agenda. So whenever I
have any kind of moment of teaching curriculum agenda, I
(27:52):
know my parents were both teachers, so I also understand
and respect conventional schooling to some degree. Um, you know what,
Ever says to me Sometimes it's like, mom, you know
what if I want to get my doctorate or whatever else,
and I just say, yeah, whatever, whenever you want to
go to school, We're you're going to go to school,
and and if you want to just keep learning outside
of that context, then you will. And I think because
(28:13):
of my direct experience with ongoing education, it has me
see on schooling as certainly daunting, but in a really
cool way, like, Wow, this is a huge thing to
take on because, as you mentioned earlier, it's like, if
ever asks me something wakes up in the middle of
and I asked me a question, I'm not going to
blow him off because this is the time he's going
(28:33):
to learn about that dinosaur or you know. I mean,
sometimes we'll table things, you know, and can we talk
about this tomorrow morning over cereals. Yes, this is a
breakfast conversation. Um, I have this. A lot of us moms,
I think have the I just want to be the
best mom I can be, and I just want to
protect him from any heart, you know. And then I'm
(28:53):
gonna name it up again. Dancy said, he's supposed to
come on this podcast we had. He's been credible, He's
incredible child, He's amazing, and the Brainstorm book on teen
is huge. Okay, I asked Dan. I was like, what
percentage of quote unquote nailing it or being a good
enough parent do we have to be in order to
(29:14):
not like wildly traumatize our children, you know, or or
keep the He said sixty percent, right, Okay. Yeah. When
I heard sixty, I was like, oh man, I could
do sixty. I took I just literally took a breath
and like let my armpits stop sweating. Like. I just
was like, oh, we could do that. I know that
(29:38):
seven and of course failing every day and then and
then when I heard that number, I was like, oh god, yeah,
we could do that. And basically we don't need to
be a d a hundred percent at a time. No,
we want to be consistent ish and constant ish, and
we want to do the best we can. And here's
the thing, you know, John Gottman, Julie Gottman, everyone you
talk about repair life isn't about the fact we're not
(30:00):
going to step at each other's toes or or trigger pain.
It's how are we going to correct it? How are
we going to repair it? So we are in a
culture here of of high responsivity and high apology in
our house. You here, I'm so sorry, and here's what
I would have done differently, And I didn't know. We
say that like there's about ten apologies a day, and
(30:20):
we just kind of my my attempt here is to
just show how cool it is and how relaxing and
how empowering it is to take responsibility. Like if I
broke that, I just go, oh, I broke it. I'm
so sorry. Oh it's okay, sweetie. I'm sad, but you
know that must be so great for I was going
to ask about the three kids and how you introduced
them to each other, because I'm I'm kind of in
(30:42):
a panic of like, oh, I'm about to take my
three family unit plus a dog to four. Um My
son is so it's going to be so great for
him to have a Similka. He's the star of the show,
and he's not keen on sharing and doesn't get a
lot of practice. Right now, I'm the right way the sharing. Ever.
(31:05):
Notice I have a thing around sharing where picture you
and I just met, and that closet behind you looks
really fun. By the way, imagine I just walked into
that closet and I just grabbed a couple of shirts
and you had just bought them, and you've never worn
them before, and I just grabbed them and took them.
That would be like, go to jail's social not okay, nous.
Yet we're we're trying to teach our kids who just
(31:27):
got a new toy that they're supposed to share. And
I what I noticed is people share naturally organically, and
sometimes they don't want to share a kind of like adults.
Sometimes I'll share my burger, my veggie burger with Soli
and sometimes if you come snear mails get away from you.
I don't touch my total sense And I'm like cool,
Like I don't care if Albi doesn't share and says
(31:48):
I don't want to share right now, But I'm not
cool with the latest and I'm going to hit you.
Oh yes, but I will say that if they're going
to put it in words, that's way better than them
just going bam and and it's a rite of passage
for them. Did you say that Elv's three right now? Yeah,
he's gonna be three, it's almost three. I mean, this
(32:09):
is the time where they're learning how to punch, right.
Punching is the greatest. It's just that if we punch
each other, no one's gonna ever want to hang out
with us. You know, we can't. We can't really hit
other people. But boy is it fun to hit. So
I've I've bought a bunch of mats for on EXI
the same. I'm like, you hit that out of the couch,
hit that pillow, hit it. I'm like, show them because
(32:29):
otherwise it will be it just doesn't really connect until
I go like this, honey and a rail on that couch,
you know, and there's dust, Like I do that tonight.
I want you all to think about me being like
Atlantis told me that I have to instruct Albie and
I'm gonna hit model model the punch that is awesome
and gets it out of your body. But doesn't hurt
(32:50):
a human being or an animal or a plant, yes,
or punch my plant. How did you introduce the new children? How?
How how were they there at the birds and so
(33:11):
it was seamless. Did you talk to your children as
soon as you got pregnant that another one was coming?
Did you wait? Okay? So I told ever about Onyx,
and then it became self evident. There's this large belly
my mom hasn't there's some someone kicking in there. He
was neutral about it while I was pregnant. After she came,
(33:34):
he pulled, he pulled him soul and I aside at
one point and said this whole Onyx thing, I'm not
into it, and then he was like and then okay,
so I'm laughing. But it was actually quite heartbreaking. So
please know that it was really hard for me. And
I think the biggest amount of crying I did was
right before Onyx was born, where I was grieving that
(33:55):
I had been alone with my baby boy and it
was us, you know, and then all of a sudden,
and there's gonna be this other person and how am
I going to navigate this? And and the truth is
some moments were fine, and then other moments have you know,
saw me nursing Onyx at night and and Ever screaming
for my attention, and then Onyx screening, and then it
was compounded when Winter came to. So there are moments
(34:18):
I'm not gonna sugarcoat this the thanks that are just
terrible where I'm standing there and I'm nursing Winter and
he's crying, and then Onyx wants me and she's crying,
and then Ever's crying because everyone's crying, and uh, it's
the worst. And I mean there's a tiny bit of
comedy in it, but usually in retrospect the comedy comes in.
But after a while they start to get used to
(34:40):
each other and then that's when they start like wrestling
and oh no, no, you can't touch your face. And
we have the boundaries thing, so stuff, what you're thinking,
what you're feeling, and your body is a no touch.
You can't tell Lonx, but she's thinking you can't. You
can't argue with what someone's feeling. They're just feeling that
feeling and don't touch their stuff. So it's so genius.
(35:03):
I read this in your I think it was well
listed on case here, but these four boundaries are great
where did you did you make that up? I did
because I thought about where are the boundaries really? I
mean if there were, if it more adult conversation, I'd
say in physical sexual right, but just saying physical you can't.
You can't touch me, you can't grab my ass, you
can't you know um. And there's there's stages of development
(35:25):
where they need to be omnipotent, where they need the
whole world to revolve around them and it's appropriate. And
then what people have called the Terrible twos, I actually
think they're it's the three. Yeah, it was a joke
that was fine too, was Kumbaya fine? I'm looking at
three is like, holy crap. Sometimes my husband and I
(35:47):
look at our son and we're like, is he back today?
Like is he? Adam will be like did he wake
up this morning? What are his eyes look like? Does
he look like our son? And I'm like, he's still
in one of these is among us and they're experimenting
also with realizing that they are separate beings and that
the world doesn't revolve around them as much as they thought.
(36:07):
So that's a pretty big grief. Protest was like, oh no,
I can't tell me about soul I is you've said
he's like a modern What did we say, he's a
modern man? He's a modern man? Man? That was it? Yes, man,
that's the world. I knew. It was a complicated one partner.
(36:36):
I don't know, but okay, he's a modern man who's
very very involved. My husband is too. Was it inherent
when you fell in love that you knew this guy
was going to really show the hell up? I saw
on your Instagram you just went on a date. Well done,
haven't That was the best hour and a half I've
had in three years. What we actually talked, we actually
(36:58):
finished a sentence. Oh my god, amazing. That's gonna guys
are gonna you got a whole three years because we
don't need to see each other again. Yeah, like that's fighting. Um. Yeah,
So going on the date was really important. And I
think what what I loved about Soli I kind of
dated against type because I was often dating people who
(37:19):
were not comfortable with the part of me that was
in the driver's seat. I'm an alpha. I love to
make decisions. I love being a leader, I love being
a CEO, I love managing, you know, so I would
date a lot of people who were more interested in
the conventional stereotypical like man alpha woman beta. So I
had to start dating against type. And then I researched,
(37:40):
like a like a rabbit hole chaser, what kinds of
marriages that were modeling what I wanted? Right, So I'd
seen so many that we're modeling what would never work
for me. If I wanted to keep a career, stay expressed,
be an activist, be of service, be a homemaker, and
keep keep all these forms of self expression alive. There
(38:00):
is no way I could have been pardon me, with
a with a conventional heterosexual man running off, bringing home
the proverbial bacon, and then me bringing up the three kids.
It's just that this, this lifetime is not that was
not gonna work. So basically I dated against type. And
his mom held down two full time jobs and his
(38:21):
dad did a lot of the heavy lifting around parenting.
So there was nothing strange about this too, Soula. In fact,
it was normal, And I think had we attempted to
do the other version, the more sort of stereotypical version,
I think he wouldn't have been into that. So he loves,
he loves the team thing. He loves that we are
I call it proximity snugs like that. We're just around
each other. Like my three kids right now know that
(38:43):
if they really needed me, they just come out here.
Of course, so it's the best. My kid too, I'm like,
he's during a nap. I'm like, you know, like you
need me come into the closet. Yeah, he could come
into my he knows where I am. But I feel
very similar when I for you know, Adam, my husband
and I we've been together for fifteen years and we
both started super struggling artists, and um, when I got
my first like a bout of success. I can't tell
(39:04):
you how many of his guy friends took him out
to lunch to ask him if he's okay, And my
husband was like what why, like yeah, because he had
no clue what the hell they were talking about, Like
he was like, what is even happening? Like, and now
we have this big joke. I don't do the cooking
and Adam does the cooking, and my child, this all
(39:25):
of quarantine has been like right now, I think my
son is very attached to me because he knows I'm
having another baby and he prefers me in some situations,
and so he'll say it is yellow, Daddy and say, Daddy,
get back in the kitchen because because Adam cooks most
of the time. And I'm like, this is amazing, throwing
(39:46):
everything on its face. I love it. You and your
husband are both musicians. I just got to ask, like,
because I can't imagine a rock star's life, your kids
come on tour with you everything. That was the plan
for this tour that's not no longer. Yeah, and I
had tickets for the Eilwall bomb, so man, man, let's
let's just say it's happening again, and we're um, there
(40:07):
are some postmonement dates already set. But you know, we'll
see what happens when we're making plans, see what life
has faith. But but normally you would take them on
the road with you. Yeah, they come with us everywhere.
And we actually were in Europe before COVID. We were
there for a month, so that was our first taste of,
you know, three kids on the road. And there were
(40:28):
some former tour managers whom I had worked with, who said, oh, Andice,
you're never going to be able to do this, and
I there's a part of me that agreed with them,
and I think we can do it. We'll just make
it work, you know. I mean sometimes I'm breastfeeding and
then I run on stage and and sometimes the kids
are backstage. I remember one time I was taking a
flight from the hotel to go do a show and
(40:48):
Onyx was particularly like, mom, don't go, and I said, Okay,
come with me, and she just jumped into my arms
and literally was in my arms all night on the plane,
on the way home everything and she just had she
had a blast. So don't you think they learn so
much through social interaction? Yeah, I just think they learned
so much. I had the same thing. I was. Yeah,
(41:10):
I've shot all over certain things, and I've come up
against some you know, heads of things. Never in Shonda Land,
thank god, Shanna Rhymes is like the greatest place to
ever work in the world. As far as like, oh
you want to bring your kids, Yeah, yeah, yeah, We'll
set up a whole, a nursery. We got a whole,
we got people, and you can breastfeed whenever you want,
(41:30):
Like it's incredible. But that's not exactly how it is everywhere.
Um and I usually have to fight, like I'll be like,
oh no, no, you don't understand. Like I've never been
away from my kid for more than a night. So like,
that's not that's not gonna happen. It's not gonna happen.
So we got to figure out how we're all going exactly. Um,
that's an attachment mom right there by the way there. Um. Quickly,
(41:53):
as we wrap up, I want to ask you about
spirituality with your kids, meditating with your kids. It's have
you been able to hold onto any of that in COVID?
I know it's a big part of your life. Is
it a big part of your kids lives? Um? We have,
it's without it being wildly formalized. There are times where
I'll sit with my kids and I have a ton
(42:14):
of um, what do you call it? Bowls, sound bowles,
what do you call sound? I don't even know what
to call them, yet I use them, um, and the
Tibetan bowls. So I have those all around the floor
in my room, and little music makers and books and
so my altar is literally at this point become a
family altar. And I remember when that first happened. I
(42:35):
just thought, my last vestige of things for me has
been eaten by the system, you know. So I was
like horrified. Then I thought, well, isn't this amazing? Though
there's everything super I mean, it's it's integrated. I just
had to come up with maybe I'll build a little
thing on the roof of the house. And that's real.
Go hi. It's like we're um just to get ten
(42:56):
minutes sometimes or two minutes not you know, it's I
haven't showered without some cute little hand knocking on the
shower door, and yeah, yeah, it's like so um so.
In terms of the spiritual practice, we do things like, hey,
you know, if I'm watching an animated show with Ever
as an example, I'll say, oh, he he really thinks
(43:16):
they're you're they're divided there, that's too bad. Or oh
he's he's actually he's really upset and instead of saying
he's sad, he's saying he's angry. Isn't that interesting? Or
and and you know, gratitude is a big sort of
epicenter of the spiritual practice for us, realizing that, you know,
conflict is growth trying to happen. Yesterday, Onyx was saying,
why are you and Ever picker me? You know, I said, oh,
(43:37):
we're just kind of having a heated exchanged and conflict
is okay. It's just we're conflict. Means we're trying to
grow together, you know. And she was like, oh, so
I don't know if the answer I should write that down.
I'm a this is good. This see this is really
good Jim James dot com. This is really good. So good.
But spiritual practice. I mean we've had funny moments where
(43:57):
I'd be in front of my I have little altars
that I that I bought in Japan years ago that
I just have all my stuff and it's all my kids,
you know, us posterity stuff. And so ever, once was
with me and I was I lit a candle, so
I was sitting there and he just started oming and
I don't I'm not an omer. I love home, but
(44:18):
I don't know, and uh, he just started Oh you know.
He was about a year and a half old. So
I think it's just you know, they're like, oh, this room,
this is the room we we we get quiet in.
And to say that they are able to meditate is
just not true because no, but you bring in a
moment of breath or a moment of a sound to body.
(44:38):
So I do a lot of um squeezing and just
you know, this is your eyelid. This is your gluteous maximus.
This is your elbow, This is your vagina, This is
your toe, this is your knee. So there's a lot
of like um anatomy lessons, trying to neutralize the genitals
for sure, and just neutralize anything where there's usually shame
(44:58):
and beauty into it before or they even before they
can even speak, right, So naked as often as possible
if it's weather allowing. Yeah, just so, so a lot
of the spiritual for me, my spirituality is so inextricably
linked with all the human stuff, Like you know those
that transpersonal psychology era. I think it was like in
the seventies where it started to slowly become more integrated
(45:20):
and popular as models to bring in science and neurobiology
and um attachment theory and you know, a conflict resolution,
you know, like just just so many amazing resources out there.
And then at the end of the day, it's just
an intuitive thing. You know, we all to some degree,
those of us who have had neglect or abuse in
our past, we want to snip that legacy of abuse
(45:42):
and not pass it on to our children. So I'm
constantly in therapy to going like what am I projecting,
and some of it because I'm an EmPATH, I feel
they're feelings so deeply, so it's like, by the end
of any given day, they're so beautifully emotional, and we're
in an environment where I want to let them know
that they can feel the emotion all the way through
you to the end, that it won't be snipped and
then stored in their bodies. But I am so depleted
(46:05):
because everyone is so freaking emotional around here. I'm containing
so fiercely all day long that at night, I mean,
thank god, there's no camera. Do you do for self care?
This has also been Oh that's good. That's been a
big COVID mom thing too, of like, how are we
supposed to, yeah, care for everybody in our home front
(46:29):
um and their anxiety and the state of the world
and the state of our you know, of America, and
but how do you take care of you? Because again,
like I keep reading, like, you can't show up if
you don't take care of yourself. That's not true. Horrible
at that, Yeah, that's not true. That's complete. Yeah, because
I don't take care of myself at all, and I'm
(46:50):
shown up for everybody else. I haven't taken a bath. Yeah.
I also I don't like them, but I haven't met.
When people are like are you meditating? Are you journaling,
I'm like, no, guys, loss of water. Yeah, Like I'm
like a fisk iced green tea is the biggest treat
I've had in days. Because I was like, I am
talking to Alattis Morrison. No, I, um, you know you
(47:14):
know that analogy or that addit or whatever you call it. Um,
the airplane thing flying down? You play yours? If I
hear if I, if I hear that one more, because
it's because you know yourself that's true. Well, here's the thing. Ideally,
it's true. Ideally it's in a perfect world, perfect whatever
that even means. Um and and it shows to be true.
(47:36):
Like I'll turn to my son ever and say, listen,
I am cranky mom right now, and my behavior is horrible, book,
And if I go to my room for ten minutes,
I'm going to come out with a huge smile on
my face so excited to do what you want to do.
But if I try to do it now, I'm just
going to be the worst. And he's like, enjoy your time,
enjoy your ten minutes. He sets his timer so that
(47:57):
so that he can feel that reliability. I'll just say,
set your timer for seven minutes. You know. Sometimes I
even say, set your timer for two minutes. That's how
diary it gets to give me two minutes. But the
self care thing, to be honest, the question for me
becomes with that much containment all day long, because there's
for me and likely for you too, there's professional boundary containment,
(48:18):
there's I mean, there's constant containment as a so called
mature mom adult. So at night it's like, how do
I you know, when no one's around and it's silent um,
Sometimes I just have to stretch get the bolsters out,
you know. And also I have this sort of wedding
smile on my face all day, so at night I
have to make you I just looked not happy because
(48:42):
everyone's looking at me, right, baby, Everyone's looky to see
if mommy's happy. So I don't want to vent your
eyes and face ablaze for your children to keep their
eyes and faces ablaze, And so at night you really
just have to like the opposite of a blaze like
face mask. Yes, and I cracked myself up because I'll
literally walk around with this scowl on my face because
(49:05):
that's a big no note. During the day, you don't
want to walk around with a big scowl. So so
at night is when everything you know, compensatory lee sort
of comes to life. Bolsters are my best friends, pardon
of me. So that's like soft ones, hard ones, medium
soft hard ones. Um, I have a hot mat. It's
slightly crazy, but it's it's saved my life. A biomat.
(49:26):
It's just hot amethyst crystals and you just lay on,
just even for two minutes before I go to sleep,
because it's like a hug, right, because this mom's it's like,
where's my bosom? I want to I want to sneak
into someone's armpit and fall asleep there too, you know.
And my husband and I are just like barely holding
it together. You just off down the hall of meeting,
(49:47):
you know. So Mothering the Mother was was a sweet
book that I really enjoyed. But the idea of mothering
the mother, I don't know that mothering the mother it's
a you know, And I think what happened is that
there used to be such a villageful now us right,
So the grandparents, Grandma was just taking care of the mom,
and then they take the baby, and and now because
we're so isolated and then triplely compounded by pandemic time.
(50:10):
I mean, so I think about women postpartum. I mean,
I'm included in this, but I do. There's some people
here who I can lean on a little bit, thank God.
But I think about people who are super isolated, and
it's just not how we were meant to raise our
families and our children. No. I keep thinking about those
the boys in Fiji, and I'm just like, that's it,
(50:31):
um very quickly. What do you hope to teach your
kids the most in life? You know? I mean I
think about the stages of development, So I would say safety, freedom,
self expression, and competence and and cutting slack for our
(50:51):
own human nous, feeling the feelings all the way through,
and that we need each other, that we're relational creatures,
and that we need each other and we'll die without
each other. M hmm. That's so beautiful, I am. I mean,
I don't even know it. Is there any other guys?
If you have not watched the Ablaze video, if you
(51:14):
have not gotten the album, such Pretty Forks in the Road,
for all of our moms listening, I know you weren't
speaking to me personally, but I felt like you were
speaking and that's that is the gift of your talent
um and how you reach all of us through twenty
five plus years of a career. I mean, that's bananas, um.
(51:40):
And also to just be able to see someone do
what you do and like, I was just so inspired
by all the alpha stuff and running a business and
being a mom and and showing us those things because
I think it's really important for us women to see that. Yes,
and you're doing it beautifully. Yeah, I mean that's our
fix you right now, they're like wide trauma. Yeah, that's right.
(52:08):
Thank you so much, Alanis Morrison for coming on Katie's Crib.
I wish you the best of luck and I cannot
wait to see the tour when it comes. I had
tickets for Jagged Little Pill. The soundtrack of the Broadway
show is the greatest thing I've ever sung at the
top of my mouth. Um, it's so great. I'm so
(52:31):
inspired by you. I really think you're the shit. I
don't have words like you do, but I just think
you're incredible. Oh my gosh. Well you're an inspiration to
me too, and I'm I'm so happy to be on
this show, and I just want to thank you for
all the women that you're empathizing with and validating and
giving hope to and just letting everyone know that it's okay.
(52:53):
We're especially this unschooling time, like so many parents I
know are just taking our own asses, and I'm just
my first thought is, just totally cut yourself from slack.
Your children are going to keep learning, They're gonna thrive,
they might even learn more. Dreams my kids learning way more.
I'm convinced, like he's never been so happy to have
both parents like kicking around, avail, attentive, and the education
(53:18):
is so catered to their you know, their impulse and
their curiosity. I mean, there's nothing better than that. So
I would just say to any parent, I just cut
yourself some slack and know that everything is going to
be okay. It is going to be okay. It's gonna
be okay. Guys, Yes, News Report, It's gonna be okay.
(53:41):
Thank you Alanis Morrison for coming on Katie's Crib You guys,
thank you so much for listening. Tell your friends subscribe,
Email me any questions, comments, concerns. Katie's Crib at Shonda
land dot com. Katie Scream is a production of Shonda
(54:01):
land Audio in partnership with I heart Radio. For more
podcasts from Shonda land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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