January 28, 2021 • 46 mins
Pregnant with her own second baby, Katie Lowes asks Sarah Ockwell-Smith (author, “The Second Baby Book”) what growing families can anticipate the second time around.
Sarah discusses ways to reduce sibling jealousy, potential regressions from baby #1 , and the real life mom guilt.
Plus, IS there a perfect sibling age gap? Tune in to find out!
Crib Notes:
The Second Baby Book: How to Cope with Pregnancy Number Two and Create a Happy Home for Your Firstborn and New Arrival - Book by Sarah Ockwell-Smith
https://sarahockwell-smith.com/
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See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi, everybody, Katie lows here,
Welcome back to Katie's Crib, a judgment free zone for
mama's to really talk about all the highs and the
lows and the in betweens of being a parent. This episode,
(00:23):
you guys, is selfishly all for me, because this episode
is all about baby number two, which at the time
of this recording, I'm thirty five weeks pregnant. I haven't
thought about baby number two at all because I've been
so busy running around after baby number one. The only
thing I've done is look at this incredible book very slowly,
(00:45):
because I can get through a page or two at
night before passing out, and I was like, I gotta
get this brilliant author on Katie's Crib. Her name is
Sarah Akwell Smith. She has written eleven, count them, eleven
parenting books, including the one I'm talking about, which is
called The Second Baby Book, How to Cope with Pregnancy
Number two and create a happy home for your firstborn
and new arrival. Sarah is coming to us from England.
(01:09):
I am in England. Yeah really, close to cambrid Between
Cambridge and London, it's cold. Oh I'm so jealous. I'm
pregnant and just coming out of our fourth or fifth
Los Angeles heat wave of over a hundred degrees which
has been so it's just it's just cold and rainy.
That's what it does in England. I'm so happy to
have you on the show. First, I want to talk
(01:31):
about the first thing that happened to me when I
was trying to plan baby number two, which is this
obsession I had with this age gap situation. It's so stupid,
but when you're a type a planner, Look like tons
of women just get pregnant with baby number two, three, four, five,
and they their whims of coal about it and they're
not planners. And if it happens, it happens great. That
(01:52):
ain't me, Okay. So I went down so many Google
spirals of deciding how to space them out, around work
around age, around when one goes to school, when's ones
added diapers, blah blah blah BiH blah. There's no one
size fits all. But based on your research, can you
share what are the differences between having kids let's say
(02:15):
closer in age versus further apart. I know everybody wants
a specific answer that says this is the right age gap,
go with that, but actually there was the hundreds, if
not thousands of research papers out there, and they will
all come to a different conclusion. It doesn't give you
the exact answer. Um, there's three people to consider, obviously,
isn't there. There's the mom, there's the baby, and there's
(02:37):
the firstborn. So what we know from the research is
that a very small age gap scientists would consider that
sort of under about a year between pregnancies is physically
not ideal for the mom because it takes time for
your body to recover obviously after being pregnant and given
birth first time. Um, it's also not ideal for the
(02:59):
bay A B to have a small age gap. We know,
for instance, that the risk of SIDS I'm not quite
sure if you call that, we call it cop death
or crib death, that's slightly higher if there's a smaller
age gap. But then on the flip side, there is
research that shows actually less than a year gap is
probably better for the firstborn, So either less than a
(03:22):
year or more than five years. So if for the
firstborn a really small age gap or a really big
age gap, they tend to adjust a bit better. Um.
But then there's also another study, really big study that
said two years is the best age gap for the firstborn.
All of these studies say conflicting things. Very often, we
don't get to choose, you know, so people get accidentally pregnant,
(03:43):
or you might have planned an age gap and you
might take a long time to get pregnant. Maybe you
have secondary and fertility when you didn't have it first
time around. And I I get you. I'm a planner,
I'm exactly the same as you. But I think maybe
this is one thing we shouldn't try to plan so much,
certainly not looking at the science. I think maybe consider
(04:04):
your situation, your work and your home and your finances,
things like that. But I think, really, whatever the age gap,
there are ways to make the best of it, and
nothing is really ideal. That's so great to hear. And
I also ran around to like everybody I knew as
adults who have great relationships with their siblings, and would
(04:24):
quiz them like, oh, you're really close with your brother
or your sister, what's your age gap? And some people
would say two years, some would say three, some would
say five, some would say ten, like it was completely
all over the map, and then a lot of people said, oh,
there were years we hated each other and now we're
in love and best friends. An age gap is really
not the only thing that's going to make them best
friends or otherwise all of my age gaps are wrong.
(04:46):
According to the science minor, I have four kids born
within four years of each other, which scientifically is like
the worst thing to do, but it worked for us,
and that silence is jar heading the ground. I know
that you had four kids, but I don't think I
realized they were within four years of each other. It
seemed a good idea at the time. Wow. I only
(05:09):
babysat for one family that had three kids under the
age of five, and I quit after thirty days because
I was like, this is its own I'm not going
to survive this this other situation. Does fertility change the
second time around? I mean, on a basic level, we're
older obviously second time around, so that can impact as well.
(05:30):
Um there could be sort of effects from the birth
that could impact fertility, and sometimes it's just unexplained. If
you take the birth control pill that could also affect
your fertilities. So again, so many variables. I spoke to
so many people who really struggled with their first baby
to conceive, like they had IBF who accidentally fell pregnant
(05:52):
the second time around. It all suspect to a lot
of people who got pregnant instantly first time, but tried
for three, four or five years for their second. Mmm. Interesting.
I've heard a lot of those stories of mom's breastfeeding
the first baby and having that situation where they haven't
had a menstrual cycle yet. Like it took me eight
months before I had a menstrual cycle when I was
(06:13):
breastfeeding my first and so a lot of people just assume, oh,
I can't get pregnant, but that's not true. Yeah, you
can get pregnant before your first period. Obviously you opulate
when you probably opulate before your parod comes back. So yeah, absolutely,
you can get pregnant without menstruating, which is solved. What
can moms anticipate for their second pregnancy, Like, I feel
(06:36):
like the first pregnancy is so miraculous and even if
you're sick, you're I think you're so amazed that your
body is doing these things and obviously you're not running
around after a toddler, and I honestly feel like this
is the longest, most in depth conversation I will have
about the fact that I'm even pregnant. In the entire
eight and a half months I've been pregnant, that's how
like not a thing. It is, Like I keep saying
(06:58):
to my husband, like should we um talk about the name,
or like we just don't have time for this, do we.
It's just so not precious this time around, Like if
I wasn't so uncomfortable, I would forget. And there's good
things and bad things about what you've just said. I
think we tend to be less anxious because we don't
have as much time to sort of focus on everything
(07:19):
and read all the books and go to all the
classes and do all the worrying. Time goes really quickly
as well compared to the firstborn. But on the downside
of that, I think that's when you start to feel
the first thoughts of guilt coming in, because with your firstborn,
if somebody said to you how many weeks and days,
you'd know exactly and you could say, well, they're the
(07:39):
size of this piece of fruit or this vegetable. And
now you're just like I haven't got a clue how
big is it? Who knows, So it's you're not giving
them the same sort of thinking and the headspace that
you did first time around. I kept a little memory book,
and I wrote messages to my baby and stuck pictures
of my ultrasounds in, and I was very much, kind
(08:00):
of emotionally invested in the baby before it arrived. But
second time around, I didn't do any of that, you know,
talking about a name, things that I knew well before
in the firstborn, but second time we didn't really focus
on it that much. That can really start to bring
feelings of guilty in that, am I already doing things differently?
Should I be focusing more on this baby? But then
(08:22):
the minute you start focusing on the baby, then you
worry that you're not focusing on your firstborn. So you
feel kind of really torn and also exhausted because you
can't sleep because you're running around after a toddler or
an older kid. And yeah, it's it's it's really different
and hard work and you're beeing all night long. It's ridiculous.
(08:42):
It's so so different. When do you recommend telling the
firstborn about baby number two? I think it depends on
how all your firstborn is. What we need to understand
is kids under about seven issues don't really have a
concept of what we call hypothetical thinking, so they don't
really think about the future in the same way that
(09:03):
we do. And they also struggle with something called abstract thinking.
They can't really imagine things without actually seeing them or
touching them. It's why if you see like a four
year old and you asked them to do some sums,
they'll use their fingers to count because they can't do
it in their head like we can. Although some adults
still account, but so they they really struggle to understand
(09:27):
things that actually aren't there, that aren't tangible. So if
you're talking about a new baby brother or sister, they
will kind of seem like they get it, but actually
they really don't. What they don't understand is how their
lives will change, how things will impact exactly what will happen.
They also don't get time, so you could say to
them four months, five months, three months in December and March,
(09:49):
and they just don't get it. So what I actually
recommend is that you wait until between five and seven
months to tell them, so there's not so long to
wear eat um and you know, you've got a bump
so that it's all a little bit more real to them,
and maybe you've got some baby stuff going on. So
almost as late as possible, that's what I did, and
(10:09):
I got so much shipped for it. It was so bizarre,
Like I waited till seven months because I just instinctually
knew that was what was best for my kids. He
doesn't need to talk about this. For ten months, I
was like, he's not gonna get it. He's He's like,
he's too he's not gonna understand this. So I've just started,
you know, a couple little board books that people have
(10:30):
recommended about being an older brother and stuff like that,
and he hates them. He doesn't want to read that book.
He wants to read Pepper, Pig Paw, patrol truck books.
If they're older, if you've got a six or a
seven or eight, you are absolutely tell them it's like
really early. But the practical preparation, I think, you know,
pretty training them and moving bedrooms or something, that's the
important stuff to do in terms of preparing them. But
(10:53):
I couldn't believe, like people would say, you haven't told
him yet. Oh we brought our baby to you know,
we showed them the first ultrasound and stuff, and I
was like, well, you know, I've struggled with miscarriage and
stuff like that, and I was like, I don't want
him to know until there's something to know, you know
what I mean, whatever you do as a parent, somebody
will disagree with you. It will be wrong, you'll get criticism.
You have to I would just ignore that. You know.
(11:15):
My one piece of west to all parents, just ignore
what everybody else says, right right, we you just touched
on this, which is what I've been getting through, is
like I had all these big transitions I wanted to
sort of hit with him before the baby became, potty training,
moving beds, moving rooms, et cetera. And I I really
wanted to take the time to space them all out
(11:37):
and make sure they were all sort of wrapped up
at least three months before the baby came. Is that
the recommendation, like if you're trying to do any big transitions,
to really not do them before the baby comes. Like
the two reasons so one is that hopefully that transition
would have happened and be a thing of the past
(11:57):
when the baby comes. You know, you don't ideally when
to be potty training a couple of weeks before and
then still going through it when you've got a newborn,
So get them practiced and done and out of the way.
But also if you don't associate the change with a
new baby, then they will normally take to it much better.
And also it can reduce any sort of sibling rivalry
with the baby. So say, if they're in your bedroom
(12:19):
and you want to move them out, if you move
them out shortly before the baby arrives and they associate
that baby with why they've been thrown out of your bedroom,
then that can sort of cause more difficult behavior because
they think, oh, you know, mom or Dad's moved me
out because the baby is coming, and they want the
baby now and not me. How do you suggest preparing
(12:39):
our toddlers for mommy being away when we deliver the
baby if you're not doing a home birth. Yeah, so
I would always say have two or three different childcare plans.
The more plans are better, um and prepared to being
in my language, Sarah, but you know, kind of prepared
(13:00):
for whatever's going to happen. So if they're going to
grandparents or you've got a friend coming or saying you know,
whatever you're doing, always do a practice run. Don't leave
it until the actual day for it to happen. In
the book, I talk about writing two plans, so like
a birth plan or birth preferences, and then I talk
about writing a while I'm giving birth plan, so a
childcare plan. So when you're in labor, you might give
(13:23):
you know, the doctors or the midwives or nurses, whatever
you call them, your plan that says this is what
I'd like to happen when I'm giving birth. And then
on the same way, I'd write a plan so that
whoever is looking after your firstborn you give them the
plan and say, this is what I'd like to happen
with my child whilst I'm giving birth. So I'd write
things on there. You know, this is what they like
to eat, this is what they like to drink, They
(13:44):
need this special toy to go to sleep, they like
to read this book at bedtime. You know, think of
all of the actualities and write them down on paper
and pack it up in the bag that's going to
be with your child. But do a practice run beforehand
and try and spend some time with that person before
you go into labor, so that the child was really
(14:04):
comfortable with them. Again, you don't want it all to
film new on the day itself. The more it's kind
of practiced and run through and you've got everything written down,
I think the better for them. Yeah. I agree. In
movies and things like this, growing up, we always see
the first child being introduced to siblings in the hospital
(14:24):
and um, I've just had a friend give birth who
was like, you don't have to do it like that,
you can do it at home. And I was like,
oh you can. Oh, that seems way better than my
son coming to like a place that he's never been before,
on top of making an introduction happen. It had never
even occurred to me that that was an option. Do
you suggest like where and when the introduction takes place?
(14:48):
I think again, if they're slightly older and they understand
that you're not in hospital because you're sick or you're ill,
or they're not going to walk past anything with sort
of beaping machines or something that scares them. Um, where
I gave birth to my first where we were staying
in the ward where we went to after giving birth,
you had to walk past the labor section. So my
(15:09):
kid had to walk past women screaming paper to reach me,
which wasn't Yeah, you know, it was okay. But if
i'd known that beforehand, I went with dumpings differently. But yeah,
So I've always talked about as well, if if they
do meet you in hospital, make sure any kind of
drips or blood or anything is covered up, because that
could be quite scary to them. But I think if
(15:31):
you're waiting to get home, I think it's nicer for
you with the baby, you get some time alone with
the baby because you you won't get back for a
long time when you get home right right right away,
and everybody neither meeting the baby. So your eldest child
meeting the baby in somewhere they feel safe and secure
and known. I think that can really help them as well,
because you've not got the strange environment thrown in. And
(15:54):
now I've also heard and you talk about this in
your book about gift giving and and how the introduction
is made, and oh my god, if it's going to
be at your house, then I better walk in first
and play with Albie for five minutes, and my husband
or your partner comes in with the baby and it's
not yours. And then you give a gift from the baby,
(16:16):
which seems insane to me because the baby can't shop. So, like,
what are your opinions thoughts on all of this? Do
you know? Often people will make a plan and they'll
do none of it and it all goes really great.
But I think the only things I would say is
just make sure that you've had a bit of a
rest and sleep so that you've got the energy for
your firstborn. And ideally great suggestions. You know, don't don't
(16:40):
be rushing to see them without having slept or something.
But I'd also suggest putting the baby down somewhere, so
down in like a crib or somewhere so that you've
got your arms free for your firstborn, because if they
haven't seen you for twelve hours, twenty four hours, forty
eight however many hours, they're likely to want to hug.
And if you've got the baby there, you know, it's
(17:01):
it's it's like the babies in the way between them
and you. So I would just, you know, put the
baby down somewhere or have somebody else holding them so
that you can give the firstborn a hug. Yeah, I
think that's great. Great suggestions, but present gift. Yeah, so giftwise,
I would absolutely give them one, but i'd make it
from you, not from the baby. I mean, I don't
(17:23):
think it matters hugely, but it just makes a lot
more sense if it's from you. When you have visitors,
they're going to be bringing gifts for the newborn, they
just feel so sorry for the firstborn when all these
people are coming for gifts and holding and making fuss
of the new baby and they're kind of ignored and
they don't get gifts. So for me giving them a
gift and saying, you know, this is because we know
(17:44):
you're going to be a wonderful big brother, and mommy
and daddy have brought this for you. Oh I love that.
So what did you do when you've had four and
people were buying gifts for the newborn? Were the first three? Like?
What the hell? Maybe three and four? Nobody's interest it
anymore and everyone's like, Nope, no gifts for you. Um
(18:04):
oh that's really funny. Um. There's all this controversy with
my hippie friends out here in l A about calling
someone a big sister or big brother versus older. Is
that something like New l A like, I get what
they're saying. I don't have an issue of that. But
the only thing I would be worried about is if
you constantly say, you know, you're a big boy. Now,
(18:26):
you don't need a pacifier, you don't need a diaper
because you're a big boy. Now, Um, what could happen
is they start resenting being big because being little gets
a pacified, being little gets a diaper, being little gets
sorts of hugs, being little gets to sleep with mom
and dad, and being big could end up this thing
(18:46):
that actually, I don't like being big and everybody keeps
calling me big, and I want to be little again.
And you'll often actually see a lot of new big
siblings they regress and start speaking like a baby, like
their speech will completely change, or they want to stop
breastfeeding again, or they'll want to pacifier again. They'll actually
try and become a baby. And I do think a
(19:07):
lot of that is because being big isn't all that's
sort of made out to be. Yeah, I've already sensed
that because like when we we moved my son into
a different room because he had this little nursery that's
attached to my bedroom where um, my second will go
and then we like party trained and we did all
this big kids stuff and I notice he'll say, but mommy,
(19:28):
i'm your baby, and I say, oh my gosh, you're
always my baby, you know what I mean? Like I
And if he says and I want to cuddle, I'm
like absolutely. But I have noticed him correcting me if
there are too many big words being put around. He'll
be like, I'm your baby, and I'm like, you're my baby,
you know, like kind of fun of that, lady. I
don't think it's a huge problem. It's just you know
(19:50):
how it's is. If you're saying you grow up being
big boy, that's problematic. Yeah, no way, Um wait, hold
on one second, I have to peece so badly well
compute sprinting. Can you give me two seconds? Hold done?
One second? Once I get one thing back? So on
(20:20):
jealousy and feeling left out. I've also heard this thing
about like my friend said, oh my gosh, just don't
let your firstborn see you breastfeeding your baby first thing
in the morning, like you've had some sleepover that they
weren't invited to, and like she's like, I throw my
baby like a freaking hot potato into the bassinet, you know,
(20:42):
so that when the when the firstborn comes in, is
there anything to that. I guess, yeah, I understand, But
you've got to live your life as well. You are
going to do things that are going to upset your firstborn.
You're not going to avoid it. And I think perhaps
being a bit more realistic and just thinking there is
going they come to time when they're really jealous or
they're really upset, and we'll deal with it when it happens.
(21:05):
But I think talking about jealousy, I prefer to talk
about it as grief. So I talk about this in
the book that when we talk about our first one's
being jealous when a new baby or eyes, I think
it it makes us thinking quite a negative mindset about them.
It makes us think they're being really naughty, they're deliberately
attention seeking, you know, the behavior is so bad, um,
(21:27):
and then you think about, you know, I should ignore
them or put them in time out or it don't
give them any attention when they're being naughty. And I
think if you think about them being grieving rather than jealous,
it's much more a better explanation of what they're going through.
So effectively they're grieving overnight. They've lost the relationship that
they had with you. They've lost the full focus of
(21:50):
your attention or your love or your connection. And sorry,
I normally make people cry at this point. Sorry if
but it is. It's like a loss, you know, and
you grieve as well, you grieve the loss of what
you had the day before. So I think if we
think of them as going through a grief transition process,
it makes us have compassion and empathy for them. It
(22:12):
makes us understand, you know, hey, buddy, this is really
half you. I get it. You've lost what we had
and you're struggling to cope with the way things are.
And it won't lost. You know, they will get over
it and they'll you know, they'll have a great relationship
with their sibling in months or years to come. But
you've just got to as you would treat somebody going
through grief, with compassion, And I think that's how we
(22:35):
need to treat them and accept the fact that they're
going to misbehave and that their behavior is going to
regress and they might not be very nice for all,
because nobody is very nice when they're grieving. What regressions
are quote unquote normal so um regressions that happen when
a new baby arrives and normally around you the feeling
of a loss of control or a loss of autonomy
(22:57):
for the first one, because you know everything they had
is gone and they can't control or what happens anymore.
There are only three things that they can control. That's
what they eat or what they swallow if you put
something in the mouth, whether they sleep and whether they
wake up in the night, and toileting or potty training.
So there's three common regressings that you might find after
a new baby are eating, so they might get really
(23:19):
picky about what they eat or pickier. All toddlers are
picky eaters, but maybe pickier um. And they might start
waking up more in the night, or lots of bedtime resistance,
like they won't go to bed. It's really common um.
And if they were reliably potty trend, you might start
to have accidents or really really normal they will go
(23:39):
and it's not a guarantee that you'll experience them, but
if they do happen, and just think, I know what
this is. This is that brief transition period. Just try
and big breasts get through it. And it will get better.
This is such a good reminder. I have to make
sure my husband listens to this episode because I also
imagine that with lack of sleep and all of that,
(24:01):
your patients is going to I mean, I've already noticed
how much my patience, how short it is, just being
pregnant and running after a toddler. Like I've said things
I've never said to him, you know, like when he's
testing and just like oh yeah, I have my sleep
sack on, my nighttime diaper, my pajamas and now and
I'm in bed, and now I have to poop like
(24:21):
that's like a regular thing. And then I have to
take him out and take off everything off and all
this crap. Sometimes I've literally said to him, this is ridiculous, Albie,
I cannot do this anymore, like like talking to him
like an adult. But I'm going to keep saying a
mantra into my head. He's grieving's not doing this celebrity.
He's going through a hard time rather than deliberately giving
(24:42):
me a hard time. You know you will lead your
ship because the parents do you know, you're not superman.
You you are going to shout, you cry, You'll have
attention if he has attention, and I think you need
the sort of graciousness to accept that your behavior might
regress a bit as well, and that's okay. And you
(25:04):
know what. The other reminder is there that I've found
helpful is like the couple times will that couple come
on more than that that I've lost my ship on
LB as of recent is like hours later, I'll be like, hey,
but I'm really sorry that I overreacted a few hours
ago when you asked to go to the bathroom and
I was I was short with you, and I'm sorry
(25:26):
and that wasn't the right way to speak with you.
And I'll try to do better next time, you know
what I mean. So the best thing you can do.
And actually a lot of people think that I don't
make mistakes because I'm a parenting expert. I hate that phrase,
but you know that's what my publishers make me call myself.
But I really really am not perfect. I really lose
it with my kids sometimes. But the one thing that
(25:48):
I will always try and do is apologize to them.
So in the hitts the moment, you probably just need
to go and breathe and calm down away from the kids.
But once you've had a breathe, once you've thought about
everything calmed down, the most important thing is just to
go and apologize to them and reconnect. So it's called
the rupture remember pair cycle. There's the rupture of when
you lose it, but then there's the repair of that reconnection.
(26:11):
And it's so important for your job for the parents
to apologize to them because it teaches them all sorts
of relationship skills, but most importantly, it teaches them what
they should do in the future when they mess up
with the relationship. So if we never made a mistake,
they wouldn't learn how to apologize. So to see it
as a positive thing to right ideas of how to
(26:32):
get number one active and involved? Is that helpful? Like,
definitely give them a special job so that they feel
kind of a sense of pride and control. So it
could be that every time the baby needs a diaper check.
It's really weird, same diaper We call them nappies in
the UK, and I have to remind myself to use
a US words. But yeah, every time they need a
diaper change, then that's their job. So that they could
(26:56):
be like the diaper duty person and they get everything
together and then and their job could be because I
get the wipes out for you and piss them to you,
or if you are breastfeeding, their job could be go
and get a blanket for the baby or get a
muslin or something. So every time that they have a
role as well. But I would also if you're talking
about breastfeeding or nursing, have like a selection of toys
(27:19):
or activities that only come out when you're breastfeeding. So
that's a great tip. Get some like anything that's that's new,
that's novel to them that they really like. Put them
in a box and it only comes out. So it's like, okay,
it's time to breastfeed the baby. Now go and get
your breastfeeding toys and come and sit them next to
me and we'll go through these. But and then when
(27:40):
you finish the feed, put them away right so that
they hold a special interest. But yeah, the more jobs,
the more special activities are better. And things like if
you need to buy something for the baby, take your
first born on a shopping trip and let them pick
something out as well. This is a big sphere of mine.
So my first is a boy um and he's he's
(28:02):
an aggressive player. It's how he wrote, like his best
friends are two years older. It's a lot of wrestling.
It's so foreign to me because I'm so like I.
I can't even watch like boxing matches, Like I have
such a not a great association with physical play. And
my son is very physical, and I'm pregnant with the daughter,
(28:23):
she might be very physical too. I have no idea.
We'll see when she's like when she comes here. Um,
but my question is what is the correct language around
if your first is aggressive with your second, which I'm
sure happens to everybody, so um, two things. I think
you've got to think about why they're doing it. So
sometimes it's just just an accident, you know, they just
(28:45):
you have over enthusiastic hugs or giving them a toy,
and they don't mean to hurt the baby. They're just
toddlers and they don't have the control of the body
that we do. So there I work on teaching them
to be gentle, so you know, gentle hands or whatever.
But don't tell them to be gentle. Show them how
to be gentle. So like you could get them a
(29:05):
doll that you play with and you show them how
to This is how to gently stroke the baby, or
this is how to sort of gently hug the baby,
or something like that, but actually role play it, role
play with dolls or say to them, you know, this
is how you gently touch somebody. Let money do it
to your hand, and then you do it to me
so that they know what you mean. And then I
(29:25):
think sometimes you have to kind of let it slide
when they are a bit overenthusiastic. Um you very quickly
find that your second baby is incredibly resilient, and I
don't try as much because they get used to kind
of being hit and over if youssily stroked or something
right from the off. And they also tend to be
much easier sleep wise as well, because your toddler will
(29:47):
do something and you have to quickly put the baby down.
Then they will have to get themselves off to sleep
because you're trying to stop your toddler doing something horrendously
dangerous that if they are, if they're doing it on purpose,
so they actually purpose trying to hurt the baby, then
I would be again going back to that grief mindset,
the baby is the thing that has changed their life
(30:08):
at that moment in time. They kind of wish the
baby wasn't there, or they're showing you know, you've hurt me,
so I'm hurting you. So the way to resolve that
is not to punish them or shout at them when
they do it. It's trying to think, you know, how
can I make things better for this child so that
they don't need to behave in that way, and that
the best thing that you can do there is trying
(30:29):
to get some once a one time with them away
from the baby, and try and build that time in
every day. So even if it's like fifteen minutes and
you do bedtime together with partner or grandparents or somebody
with the baby in a totally different room. I keep
hearing this fifteen a minute magic number, which has really
been such a savior to me being pregnant and and
(30:50):
like COVID, just like if I can do fifteen minutes
once or twice a day with no phone, him leading
the play a hundred send attention, it goes miles, like
it really does, sucking miles, and it takes the pressure
of me where it's like, oh God, I don't have
that three hour window to take him on an adventure
(31:10):
of something that has never done. Like that's not happening,
you know. I mean the two things that work the
best is just ten or fifteen minutes, as you said,
put the phone down, get down on the floor with
them and play. But say to them, what do you
want to play? You decide what we do, so whatever
stupid things they want to do, that you join with them.
And then I think the most important thing that you
(31:31):
can do is do bedtime if you've got another adult
in the house. So what tends to happen when we
have another baby if there's two of you, is the
partner will then automatically take over bedtime for the firstborn
and the mom will then automatically do the baby in
the evening. But actually it works much better if you
can swap it around, because after a day with the baby,
(31:53):
what the toddler or the first one really ideally need
is time with mom and mom alone at bedtime. And
it's it's kind of the most important time of day.
It's you know, that's the end of their day where
they're processing what they've been through and they're going to sleep.
So if they can have that time with you and
dad or partner has got the baby in a different room,
and it's likely you know, if you're breastfeeding. I would
breastfeed and then kind of run and say here, take
(32:16):
the baby to take them in the car. You feel
like fifteen minutes half an hour while I do the
first one's bedtime. It has a huge impact. Yeah, that's
so interesting, mostly because I was so sick, uh, starting
at about four or five o'clock with this pregnancy that
like I was dead to the world, like I couldn't deal.
(32:37):
So he's been doing bedtime and I do mornings. He
wakes up with me and we do all of our books.
I do like thirty minutes with him in the morning,
but I guess we should switch it up. Yeah, you know.
And also the other thing is it doesn't have to
be every day, but if if you can both do
bedtime at some point, it makes them much more flexible,
so that they you end up with a child who
(32:58):
won't only go to sleep for mom or who won't
on you got to sleep with dad. And actually the
wonderful thing is it makes the baby much more flexible.
So when I talk to parents about sleep, one of
the most common questions I get is dad or partner
can't get the baby to sleep, only I can do it.
Particularly breastfeeding moms. You know, what can I do? How
can I help dad to get the baby to sleep?
(33:19):
And with your second baby, you have this marvelous sort
of opportunity from the first because if dad has the
baby in the evening or partner has the baby in
the evening, then the baby gets used to go and
to sleep for them as well as you. You end
up that like all on you exactly. So you know,
in six months time, you don't have that baby who
will only go to seep for mom, which is normal,
(33:40):
but it's a lot more helpful for you if you've
got both kids will go to sleep for both adults. Yeah,
like you've set yourself up for doing way too much
if you're just the baby, or let me just do
it because it only works when I do it. So
(34:03):
if you have family that's helping you with the baby, sisters, siblings, friends.
I know with COVID it's different, but my parents are
going to be here and they'll be watching Albie. I
was just under the impression spoil him, give him whatever
he wants, and give him all the attention in the world.
Tell me what's right or wrong and what I should
tell them they should be doing with with with baby
(34:25):
one kind of pretty much what you've just said. But
it's really important to discipline and have boundaries to a
lot of parents will start to feel so guilty that
they end up really permissive and they just do anything
the firstborn wants because they don't want to upset them anymore.
And actually that's not good for them either. So don't
be afraid to discipline him or have those boundaries and limits.
(34:49):
But also, yeah, shower him with love and attention, play
with him. If they're going to bring a gift for
the baby, I would say, can you bring a small
gift for him too? Sure? Sure, but yeah, keeps normality
going as well. It's again, at the moment it's difficult,
but if he goes to daycare or something like that,
then I would actually keep that up right, right, right right.
(35:10):
His normal things is normal activities and routines. Try and
keep them up as much as possible, because that kind
of gives us some predictability to an otherwise very unpredictable situation.
Mm hmm. We talked about the massive mom guilt. I've
had moms just breaking down crying towards the end of
(35:30):
the pregnancy with their second really morning and grieving and um,
you know, saying goodbye to what was once a two
or three family unit that's now changing up. Any advice
for those moms and those horrible feelings, The only advice
I think is that everybody will feel it to some extent.
(35:51):
There's nothing wrong with you. It's really normal, and I
think just kind of accept the feelings, but also under
some eventually they will fade. I don't think there's anything
you can do to make them go quicker. You will
absolutely have enough love for another baby. Your love has
doesn't have to be divided, it multiplies. However, guilt will
(36:11):
never completely go. You know, my eldest is eighteen, and
I still feel guilty sometimes. You know, you still have
those pangs of what if, what if there was just
you or thinking back to those times when there was
just you, And that doesn't make you a bad person.
M So just be kind to yourself. I think that's
(36:34):
the whole thing with the second baby, is just be
kind to everybody. Everybody's grieving, everybody's see I haven't felt
that yet. I'm curious. Like I'm very close with my
brother and he we have like a for everyone listening.
We have a two year nine month age difference. I
tried to recreate that, and I got an acting job
(36:57):
and couldn't have that happen. So my children are three
years and two months apart, which I will blame for
the rest of their existence when they don't get along,
which is so so stupid. But I feel like my
brother was the greatest gift my mom ever gave me.
Like period, I feel so fortunate that I don't walk
(37:17):
through my life alone, that there's one other person on
this earth that understands my parents the way we do,
you know, like my significant other will never understand my
parents like my brother does. And I feel very relieved that, like,
as we walk through our lives, that we have each other.
And that's going to be like a big hoop for
me to jump through because who knows if my children
(37:40):
will get along the way my brother. To keep reminding
use of that. And when you were a kids, there
would probably quite a lot of times when you didn't
like your brother, so you beat the ship out of
each other. Like my kids, they've got older, they've definitely
got closer together, but when they were little, it was
just like all at war. And I think so pressure
(38:00):
yourself all your children to be the greatest of friends,
and it it's also really boring for the total and
older child to have a baby. You know, babies are
really dull. When you want to play catch with them
or you want to run around with them and they
can't do anything. That relationship will grow and I don't
push them, they will push yourself to sort of have
it right from the start. But yeah, I agree. I
(38:21):
don't have any siblings, and I one thing ideally, which
is that I had a sibling, which is what I
kept reminding myself on the really bad days when my
kids were trying to kill each other. Oh my gosh,
I am so I'm very excited for this. I'm very
happy to have spent time with you talking about the
fact that I'm even having another child. And I do
(38:42):
think it's going to make my son a better person,
to be honest. And look, I know some fucking stellar
only children, you being one of them. Kerrie Washington is
an only child. My friend Angelie Cabral who has been
on this podcast, isn't only just she has step siblings.
But if you know, there are amazing only children in
the world, incredible. But I do think for my son
I'm like, good, look, he's the only grandchild, and the
(39:04):
sun moon stars sets on this freaking kid. I cannot
tell you how the attention to I mean, it is unreal,
But I'm going off on a tangent. Are there any
other pieces of advice you can give to anyone expecting
their second because you know, I think one thing I
had mentioned is think about your first birth a little bit. So,
(39:27):
particularly if your first birth was bit traumatic or it
didn't go as you want, I would always recommend you
spend some time kind of debriefing what happened, particularly if
you want to try for a natural labor second time.
So get somebody to explain the first time why things
went in the way that they did, so that you
can understand it so that you can make an informed
(39:48):
choice about your second birth and how you want things
to go. I mean a lot of second time parents
who are just, oh, we're just going to go with
the flow, and that works for a lot of people.
But if you did have a to cook time first time,
I'd really recommend spending some time focusing. Usually mentioned I
think before we started speaking, have a chat with a
doo la or or a midwife or a prenatal coach
(40:12):
to kind of process what happened. That's a that is
something we've not touched on, which is an amazing piece
of advice because I have had a lot of mom
friends heal through their second labor experience. Their first was
very traumatic and out of control feeling, and they were
petrified to give birth again. And what it did was
(40:36):
healed their first experience because they really went into their
second in a different way or having processed the first one,
and they came out of their second feeling better about
their first one. And it's not just about your second
being a perfect natural birth, having elective cesarian right, but
(40:56):
you've really things are going to go the way you
want them to this time, and you've made a plan
and you feel much more in control. Inform yourself about everything,
debrief and think about how you can take control, and yeah, absolutely,
you can put a lot of demons to bed from
your first birth, which really helps with the kind of
the bonding and the early days with the second baby.
That is incredible advice for you guys listening. I'm so
(41:19):
scared because I've had a fear of labor my entire life,
and I overstudied and overprepared and over freaked out, and
so nothing could have been as bad as I thought
it was going to be, and it wasn't. It was great.
It was like the best day of my life. It
was absolutely wonderful. And it just occurred to me the
other day, I was like, holy shit, I could have
like an emergency C section, Like it could go completely
(41:41):
differently than the first one. This pregnancy has been completely
different than the first one. Is the trick to not
compare it to the first time. What you're saying, you've
not been anxious about it probably will make it easier
this time because we carry that anxiety in that fear
to birth with us. So I think that imp is
what makes second verse easier. That obviously, if you had
(42:02):
an easy time first time around. The one thing that
I think somebody in your situation, if your first birth
was fairly easy or fairly short, like the average first
time neighbors about thirteen hours, So if it was shorter
than that, research what to do if your baby comes
before you get to the hospital or the first central
or mid my thrived. I used to be a doer.
I've been to many births, and I was an antenatal
(42:24):
teacher or prenatal teacher. And I've been at many of
what we call born before arrivals of second babies that
don't wait for medical staff for arriving at hospitals. So
just research that. There's a little bit about the book
in it. But if it happens really quickly, it's a
great sign. But just make sure you and whoever else
is with you knows what to do if it progresses
(42:46):
really quickly. Oh my god. We had a lantis more
event on this podcast, and I think it was for
a second actually had that sort of situation. The dula
never made it, the midwife never made it, her baby
was here hour, and her freaking husband. My husband would
be fainted dead on the floor. There's no way. He
(43:06):
can't even see blood. Just make sure he knows what
to do if it happens really quickly. Oh my god,
I mean, anything is possible. I've been to three second
verse that we're all born into the toilet? Do you
call them toilets? And yes, literally, mom, no medical stuff
and Mom just thought I need to go to the
loo and you need to have a poo And it
wasn't and it was a baby way that is, it
(43:28):
had just before we go. Did you any of your
four happened like that? Like? Was it so fast? So? Yeah,
my first year in hospital, and they were first was
really long. Second, I was in juice. It's quite quick
because it's in juice. I had preclamps which I think so,
which is actually one of the risks for mom if
you have a very close age. So I got pregnant
(43:50):
with my first one was six months old. Really yeah,
you know, I look back now, I think what was
I doing? Yes, so that's what you were doing, but
too much? Apparently. My third and fourth I had at home.
I actually third babies, labor tends to get longer, bizarrely,
so it's normally first long, second short, third medium. My
(44:12):
fourth baby was I think just about an hour from
first contraction to be born. Here was done at home, thankfully,
So I had a birthpall at home and I rang,
got my husband's ring the midwife, and the midwife turned
up with her coat still on and I'm my baby's
coming right now, and it was lovely. It was in Yeah,
(44:33):
all my three kids are upstairs asleep and missed all
of it. It It was kind of perfect, but would have
freaked me out of it. Happened second time. Wow. So Sarah,
thank you so much for all of your time, and
can you tell our listeners where we can find you,
where they can get your book. Say, my website is
just my name, Sarah well Smith. It's got a little
hyphen in it, dot com. I'm on Instagram as Sarah
(44:55):
or Smith. I'm on Facebook as Sarah Smith author, and
I'm on to sir as the Baby Expert which started
off as a bit of a joke, like a tongue
in cheek thing, but it kind of stopped. You got
printed on my books. I've had to keep it, so
it's the Baby expert Um and the books available kind
of everybody. You can buy books, great guys, if you
are entertaining the idea of getting pregnant with another, if
(45:18):
you're expecting your other, if you've brought your other home
and everything's going to ship, whatever. I highly recommend this
book because it has everything in it and it's so accessible.
The Second Baby Book, How to Cope with Pregnancy number
two and create a happy home for your firstborn and
new arrival. Sarah Akwill Smith, thank you so much for
coming to us from England from your very cold, beautiful place.
(45:43):
Thank you. Thank you so much everybody, and you guys.
If you have any thoughts, questions, comments, you know where
to find me. It's Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com.
Thank you all for tuning into katie Crib and for
your beautiful messages and reviews. I absolutely love connecting with
(46:04):
you and hearing your stories and questions. So email me
at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. We may
just feature you on an episode, so hit me up. Thanks, guys.
Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shanda
land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(46:25):
or wherever you listen to your favorite ships. Never until
you try
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda Land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. Hi, everybody, Katie lows here,
Welcome back to Katie's Crib, a judgment free zone for
mama's to really talk about all the highs and the
lows and the in betweens of being a parent. This episode,
(00:23):
you guys, is selfishly all for me, because this episode
is all about baby number two, which at the time
of this recording, I'm thirty five weeks pregnant. I haven't
thought about baby number two at all because I've been
so busy running around after baby number one. The only
thing I've done is look at this incredible book very slowly,
(00:45):
because I can get through a page or two at
night before passing out, and I was like, I gotta
get this brilliant author on Katie's Crib. Her name is
Sarah Akwell Smith. She has written eleven, count them, eleven
parenting books, including the one I'm talking about, which is
called The Second Baby Book, How to Cope with Pregnancy
Number two and create a happy home for your firstborn
and new arrival. Sarah is coming to us from England.
(01:09):
I am in England. Yeah really, close to cambrid Between
Cambridge and London, it's cold. Oh I'm so jealous. I'm
pregnant and just coming out of our fourth or fifth
Los Angeles heat wave of over a hundred degrees which
has been so it's just it's just cold and rainy.
That's what it does in England. I'm so happy to
have you on the show. First, I want to talk
(01:31):
about the first thing that happened to me when I
was trying to plan baby number two, which is this
obsession I had with this age gap situation. It's so stupid,
but when you're a type a planner, Look like tons
of women just get pregnant with baby number two, three, four, five,
and they their whims of coal about it and they're
not planners. And if it happens, it happens great. That
(01:52):
ain't me, Okay. So I went down so many Google
spirals of deciding how to space them out, around work
around age, around when one goes to school, when's ones
added diapers, blah blah blah BiH blah. There's no one
size fits all. But based on your research, can you
share what are the differences between having kids let's say
(02:15):
closer in age versus further apart. I know everybody wants
a specific answer that says this is the right age gap,
go with that, but actually there was the hundreds, if
not thousands of research papers out there, and they will
all come to a different conclusion. It doesn't give you
the exact answer. Um, there's three people to consider, obviously,
isn't there. There's the mom, there's the baby, and there's
(02:37):
the firstborn. So what we know from the research is
that a very small age gap scientists would consider that
sort of under about a year between pregnancies is physically
not ideal for the mom because it takes time for
your body to recover obviously after being pregnant and given
birth first time. Um, it's also not ideal for the
(02:59):
bay A B to have a small age gap. We know,
for instance, that the risk of SIDS I'm not quite
sure if you call that, we call it cop death
or crib death, that's slightly higher if there's a smaller
age gap. But then on the flip side, there is
research that shows actually less than a year gap is
probably better for the firstborn, So either less than a
(03:22):
year or more than five years. So if for the
firstborn a really small age gap or a really big
age gap, they tend to adjust a bit better. Um.
But then there's also another study, really big study that
said two years is the best age gap for the firstborn.
All of these studies say conflicting things. Very often, we
don't get to choose, you know, so people get accidentally pregnant,
(03:43):
or you might have planned an age gap and you
might take a long time to get pregnant. Maybe you
have secondary and fertility when you didn't have it first
time around. And I I get you. I'm a planner,
I'm exactly the same as you. But I think maybe
this is one thing we shouldn't try to plan so much,
certainly not looking at the science. I think maybe consider
(04:04):
your situation, your work and your home and your finances,
things like that. But I think, really, whatever the age gap,
there are ways to make the best of it, and
nothing is really ideal. That's so great to hear. And
I also ran around to like everybody I knew as
adults who have great relationships with their siblings, and would
(04:24):
quiz them like, oh, you're really close with your brother
or your sister, what's your age gap? And some people
would say two years, some would say three, some would
say five, some would say ten, like it was completely
all over the map, and then a lot of people said, oh,
there were years we hated each other and now we're
in love and best friends. An age gap is really
not the only thing that's going to make them best
friends or otherwise all of my age gaps are wrong.
(04:46):
According to the science minor, I have four kids born
within four years of each other, which scientifically is like
the worst thing to do, but it worked for us,
and that silence is jar heading the ground. I know
that you had four kids, but I don't think I
realized they were within four years of each other. It
seemed a good idea at the time. Wow. I only
(05:09):
babysat for one family that had three kids under the
age of five, and I quit after thirty days because
I was like, this is its own I'm not going
to survive this this other situation. Does fertility change the
second time around? I mean, on a basic level, we're
older obviously second time around, so that can impact as well.
(05:30):
Um there could be sort of effects from the birth
that could impact fertility, and sometimes it's just unexplained. If
you take the birth control pill that could also affect
your fertilities. So again, so many variables. I spoke to
so many people who really struggled with their first baby
to conceive, like they had IBF who accidentally fell pregnant
(05:52):
the second time around. It all suspect to a lot
of people who got pregnant instantly first time, but tried
for three, four or five years for their second. Mmm. Interesting.
I've heard a lot of those stories of mom's breastfeeding
the first baby and having that situation where they haven't
had a menstrual cycle yet. Like it took me eight
months before I had a menstrual cycle when I was
(06:13):
breastfeeding my first and so a lot of people just assume, oh,
I can't get pregnant, but that's not true. Yeah, you
can get pregnant before your first period. Obviously you opulate
when you probably opulate before your parod comes back. So yeah, absolutely,
you can get pregnant without menstruating, which is solved. What
can moms anticipate for their second pregnancy, Like, I feel
(06:36):
like the first pregnancy is so miraculous and even if
you're sick, you're I think you're so amazed that your
body is doing these things and obviously you're not running
around after a toddler, and I honestly feel like this
is the longest, most in depth conversation I will have
about the fact that I'm even pregnant. In the entire
eight and a half months I've been pregnant, that's how
like not a thing. It is, Like I keep saying
(06:58):
to my husband, like should we um talk about the name,
or like we just don't have time for this, do we.
It's just so not precious this time around, Like if
I wasn't so uncomfortable, I would forget. And there's good
things and bad things about what you've just said. I
think we tend to be less anxious because we don't
have as much time to sort of focus on everything
(07:19):
and read all the books and go to all the
classes and do all the worrying. Time goes really quickly
as well compared to the firstborn. But on the downside
of that, I think that's when you start to feel
the first thoughts of guilt coming in, because with your firstborn,
if somebody said to you how many weeks and days,
you'd know exactly and you could say, well, they're the
(07:39):
size of this piece of fruit or this vegetable. And
now you're just like I haven't got a clue how
big is it? Who knows, So it's you're not giving
them the same sort of thinking and the headspace that
you did first time around. I kept a little memory book,
and I wrote messages to my baby and stuck pictures
of my ultrasounds in, and I was very much, kind
(08:00):
of emotionally invested in the baby before it arrived. But
second time around, I didn't do any of that, you know,
talking about a name, things that I knew well before
in the firstborn, but second time we didn't really focus
on it that much. That can really start to bring
feelings of guilty in that, am I already doing things differently?
Should I be focusing more on this baby? But then
(08:22):
the minute you start focusing on the baby, then you
worry that you're not focusing on your firstborn. So you
feel kind of really torn and also exhausted because you
can't sleep because you're running around after a toddler or
an older kid. And yeah, it's it's it's really different
and hard work and you're beeing all night long. It's ridiculous.
(08:42):
It's so so different. When do you recommend telling the
firstborn about baby number two? I think it depends on
how all your firstborn is. What we need to understand
is kids under about seven issues don't really have a
concept of what we call hypothetical thinking, so they don't
really think about the future in the same way that
(09:03):
we do. And they also struggle with something called abstract thinking.
They can't really imagine things without actually seeing them or
touching them. It's why if you see like a four
year old and you asked them to do some sums,
they'll use their fingers to count because they can't do
it in their head like we can. Although some adults
still account, but so they they really struggle to understand
(09:27):
things that actually aren't there, that aren't tangible. So if
you're talking about a new baby brother or sister, they
will kind of seem like they get it, but actually
they really don't. What they don't understand is how their
lives will change, how things will impact exactly what will happen.
They also don't get time, so you could say to
them four months, five months, three months in December and March,
(09:49):
and they just don't get it. So what I actually
recommend is that you wait until between five and seven
months to tell them, so there's not so long to
wear eat um and you know, you've got a bump
so that it's all a little bit more real to them,
and maybe you've got some baby stuff going on. So
almost as late as possible, that's what I did, and
(10:09):
I got so much shipped for it. It was so bizarre,
Like I waited till seven months because I just instinctually
knew that was what was best for my kids. He
doesn't need to talk about this. For ten months, I
was like, he's not gonna get it. He's He's like,
he's too he's not gonna understand this. So I've just started,
you know, a couple little board books that people have
(10:30):
recommended about being an older brother and stuff like that,
and he hates them. He doesn't want to read that book.
He wants to read Pepper, Pig Paw, patrol truck books.
If they're older, if you've got a six or a
seven or eight, you are absolutely tell them it's like
really early. But the practical preparation, I think, you know,
pretty training them and moving bedrooms or something, that's the
important stuff to do in terms of preparing them. But
(10:53):
I couldn't believe, like people would say, you haven't told
him yet. Oh we brought our baby to you know,
we showed them the first ultrasound and stuff, and I
was like, well, you know, I've struggled with miscarriage and
stuff like that, and I was like, I don't want
him to know until there's something to know, you know
what I mean, whatever you do as a parent, somebody
will disagree with you. It will be wrong, you'll get criticism.
You have to I would just ignore that. You know.
(11:15):
My one piece of west to all parents, just ignore
what everybody else says, right right, we you just touched
on this, which is what I've been getting through, is
like I had all these big transitions I wanted to
sort of hit with him before the baby became, potty training,
moving beds, moving rooms, et cetera. And I I really
wanted to take the time to space them all out
(11:37):
and make sure they were all sort of wrapped up
at least three months before the baby came. Is that
the recommendation, like if you're trying to do any big transitions,
to really not do them before the baby comes. Like
the two reasons so one is that hopefully that transition
would have happened and be a thing of the past
(11:57):
when the baby comes. You know, you don't ideally when
to be potty training a couple of weeks before and
then still going through it when you've got a newborn,
So get them practiced and done and out of the way.
But also if you don't associate the change with a
new baby, then they will normally take to it much better.
And also it can reduce any sort of sibling rivalry
with the baby. So say, if they're in your bedroom
(12:19):
and you want to move them out, if you move
them out shortly before the baby arrives and they associate
that baby with why they've been thrown out of your bedroom,
then that can sort of cause more difficult behavior because
they think, oh, you know, mom or Dad's moved me
out because the baby is coming, and they want the
baby now and not me. How do you suggest preparing
(12:39):
our toddlers for mommy being away when we deliver the
baby if you're not doing a home birth. Yeah, so
I would always say have two or three different childcare plans.
The more plans are better, um and prepared to being
in my language, Sarah, but you know, kind of prepared
(13:00):
for whatever's going to happen. So if they're going to
grandparents or you've got a friend coming or saying you know,
whatever you're doing, always do a practice run. Don't leave
it until the actual day for it to happen. In
the book, I talk about writing two plans, so like
a birth plan or birth preferences, and then I talk
about writing a while I'm giving birth plan, so a
childcare plan. So when you're in labor, you might give
(13:23):
you know, the doctors or the midwives or nurses, whatever
you call them, your plan that says this is what
I'd like to happen when I'm giving birth. And then
on the same way, I'd write a plan so that
whoever is looking after your firstborn you give them the
plan and say, this is what I'd like to happen
with my child whilst I'm giving birth. So I'd write
things on there. You know, this is what they like
to eat, this is what they like to drink, They
(13:44):
need this special toy to go to sleep, they like
to read this book at bedtime. You know, think of
all of the actualities and write them down on paper
and pack it up in the bag that's going to
be with your child. But do a practice run beforehand
and try and spend some time with that person before
you go into labor, so that the child was really
(14:04):
comfortable with them. Again, you don't want it all to
film new on the day itself. The more it's kind
of practiced and run through and you've got everything written down,
I think the better for them. Yeah. I agree. In
movies and things like this, growing up, we always see
the first child being introduced to siblings in the hospital
(14:24):
and um, I've just had a friend give birth who
was like, you don't have to do it like that,
you can do it at home. And I was like,
oh you can. Oh, that seems way better than my
son coming to like a place that he's never been before,
on top of making an introduction happen. It had never
even occurred to me that that was an option. Do
you suggest like where and when the introduction takes place?
(14:48):
I think again, if they're slightly older and they understand
that you're not in hospital because you're sick or you're ill,
or they're not going to walk past anything with sort
of beaping machines or something that scares them. Um, where
I gave birth to my first where we were staying
in the ward where we went to after giving birth,
you had to walk past the labor section. So my
(15:09):
kid had to walk past women screaming paper to reach me,
which wasn't Yeah, you know, it was okay. But if
i'd known that beforehand, I went with dumpings differently. But yeah,
So I've always talked about as well, if if they
do meet you in hospital, make sure any kind of
drips or blood or anything is covered up, because that
could be quite scary to them. But I think if
(15:31):
you're waiting to get home, I think it's nicer for
you with the baby, you get some time alone with
the baby because you you won't get back for a
long time when you get home right right right away,
and everybody neither meeting the baby. So your eldest child
meeting the baby in somewhere they feel safe and secure
and known. I think that can really help them as well,
because you've not got the strange environment thrown in. And
(15:54):
now I've also heard and you talk about this in
your book about gift giving and and how the introduction
is made, and oh my god, if it's going to
be at your house, then I better walk in first
and play with Albie for five minutes, and my husband
or your partner comes in with the baby and it's
not yours. And then you give a gift from the baby,
(16:16):
which seems insane to me because the baby can't shop. So, like,
what are your opinions thoughts on all of this? Do
you know? Often people will make a plan and they'll
do none of it and it all goes really great.
But I think the only things I would say is
just make sure that you've had a bit of a
rest and sleep so that you've got the energy for
your firstborn. And ideally great suggestions. You know, don't don't
(16:40):
be rushing to see them without having slept or something.
But I'd also suggest putting the baby down somewhere, so
down in like a crib or somewhere so that you've
got your arms free for your firstborn, because if they
haven't seen you for twelve hours, twenty four hours, forty
eight however many hours, they're likely to want to hug.
And if you've got the baby there, you know, it's
(17:01):
it's it's like the babies in the way between them
and you. So I would just, you know, put the
baby down somewhere or have somebody else holding them so
that you can give the firstborn a hug. Yeah, I
think that's great. Great suggestions, but present gift. Yeah, so giftwise,
I would absolutely give them one, but i'd make it
from you, not from the baby. I mean, I don't
(17:23):
think it matters hugely, but it just makes a lot
more sense if it's from you. When you have visitors,
they're going to be bringing gifts for the newborn, they
just feel so sorry for the firstborn when all these
people are coming for gifts and holding and making fuss
of the new baby and they're kind of ignored and
they don't get gifts. So for me giving them a
gift and saying, you know, this is because we know
(17:44):
you're going to be a wonderful big brother, and mommy
and daddy have brought this for you. Oh I love that.
So what did you do when you've had four and
people were buying gifts for the newborn? Were the first three? Like?
What the hell? Maybe three and four? Nobody's interest it
anymore and everyone's like, Nope, no gifts for you. Um
(18:04):
oh that's really funny. Um. There's all this controversy with
my hippie friends out here in l A about calling
someone a big sister or big brother versus older. Is
that something like New l A like, I get what
they're saying. I don't have an issue of that. But
the only thing I would be worried about is if
you constantly say, you know, you're a big boy. Now,
(18:26):
you don't need a pacifier, you don't need a diaper
because you're a big boy. Now, Um, what could happen
is they start resenting being big because being little gets
a pacified, being little gets a diaper, being little gets
sorts of hugs, being little gets to sleep with mom
and dad, and being big could end up this thing
(18:46):
that actually, I don't like being big and everybody keeps
calling me big, and I want to be little again.
And you'll often actually see a lot of new big
siblings they regress and start speaking like a baby, like
their speech will completely change, or they want to stop
breastfeeding again, or they'll want to pacifier again. They'll actually
try and become a baby. And I do think a
(19:07):
lot of that is because being big isn't all that's
sort of made out to be. Yeah, I've already sensed
that because like when we we moved my son into
a different room because he had this little nursery that's
attached to my bedroom where um, my second will go
and then we like party trained and we did all
this big kids stuff and I notice he'll say, but mommy,
(19:28):
i'm your baby, and I say, oh my gosh, you're
always my baby, you know what I mean? Like I
And if he says and I want to cuddle, I'm
like absolutely. But I have noticed him correcting me if
there are too many big words being put around. He'll
be like, I'm your baby, and I'm like, you're my baby,
you know, like kind of fun of that, lady. I
don't think it's a huge problem. It's just you know
(19:50):
how it's is. If you're saying you grow up being
big boy, that's problematic. Yeah, no way, Um wait, hold
on one second, I have to peece so badly well
compute sprinting. Can you give me two seconds? Hold done?
One second? Once I get one thing back? So on
(20:20):
jealousy and feeling left out. I've also heard this thing
about like my friend said, oh my gosh, just don't
let your firstborn see you breastfeeding your baby first thing
in the morning, like you've had some sleepover that they
weren't invited to, and like she's like, I throw my
baby like a freaking hot potato into the bassinet, you know,
(20:42):
so that when the when the firstborn comes in, is
there anything to that. I guess, yeah, I understand, But
you've got to live your life as well. You are
going to do things that are going to upset your firstborn.
You're not going to avoid it. And I think perhaps
being a bit more realistic and just thinking there is
going they come to time when they're really jealous or
they're really upset, and we'll deal with it when it happens.
(21:05):
But I think talking about jealousy, I prefer to talk
about it as grief. So I talk about this in
the book that when we talk about our first one's
being jealous when a new baby or eyes, I think
it it makes us thinking quite a negative mindset about them.
It makes us think they're being really naughty, they're deliberately
attention seeking, you know, the behavior is so bad, um,
(21:27):
and then you think about, you know, I should ignore
them or put them in time out or it don't
give them any attention when they're being naughty. And I
think if you think about them being grieving rather than jealous,
it's much more a better explanation of what they're going through.
So effectively they're grieving overnight. They've lost the relationship that
they had with you. They've lost the full focus of
(21:50):
your attention or your love or your connection. And sorry,
I normally make people cry at this point. Sorry if
but it is. It's like a loss, you know, and
you grieve as well, you grieve the loss of what
you had the day before. So I think if we
think of them as going through a grief transition process,
it makes us have compassion and empathy for them. It
(22:12):
makes us understand, you know, hey, buddy, this is really
half you. I get it. You've lost what we had
and you're struggling to cope with the way things are.
And it won't lost. You know, they will get over
it and they'll you know, they'll have a great relationship
with their sibling in months or years to come. But
you've just got to as you would treat somebody going
through grief, with compassion, And I think that's how we
(22:35):
need to treat them and accept the fact that they're
going to misbehave and that their behavior is going to
regress and they might not be very nice for all,
because nobody is very nice when they're grieving. What regressions
are quote unquote normal so um regressions that happen when
a new baby arrives and normally around you the feeling
of a loss of control or a loss of autonomy
(22:57):
for the first one, because you know everything they had
is gone and they can't control or what happens anymore.
There are only three things that they can control. That's
what they eat or what they swallow if you put
something in the mouth, whether they sleep and whether they
wake up in the night, and toileting or potty training.
So there's three common regressings that you might find after
a new baby are eating, so they might get really
(23:19):
picky about what they eat or pickier. All toddlers are
picky eaters, but maybe pickier um. And they might start
waking up more in the night, or lots of bedtime resistance,
like they won't go to bed. It's really common um.
And if they were reliably potty trend, you might start
to have accidents or really really normal they will go
(23:39):
and it's not a guarantee that you'll experience them, but
if they do happen, and just think, I know what
this is. This is that brief transition period. Just try
and big breasts get through it. And it will get better.
This is such a good reminder. I have to make
sure my husband listens to this episode because I also
imagine that with lack of sleep and all of that,
(24:01):
your patients is going to I mean, I've already noticed
how much my patience, how short it is, just being
pregnant and running after a toddler. Like I've said things
I've never said to him, you know, like when he's
testing and just like oh yeah, I have my sleep
sack on, my nighttime diaper, my pajamas and now and
I'm in bed, and now I have to poop like
(24:21):
that's like a regular thing. And then I have to
take him out and take off everything off and all
this crap. Sometimes I've literally said to him, this is ridiculous, Albie,
I cannot do this anymore, like like talking to him
like an adult. But I'm going to keep saying a
mantra into my head. He's grieving's not doing this celebrity.
He's going through a hard time rather than deliberately giving
(24:42):
me a hard time. You know you will lead your
ship because the parents do you know, you're not superman.
You you are going to shout, you cry, You'll have
attention if he has attention, and I think you need
the sort of graciousness to accept that your behavior might
regress a bit as well, and that's okay. And you
(25:04):
know what. The other reminder is there that I've found
helpful is like the couple times will that couple come
on more than that that I've lost my ship on
LB as of recent is like hours later, I'll be like, hey,
but I'm really sorry that I overreacted a few hours
ago when you asked to go to the bathroom and
I was I was short with you, and I'm sorry
(25:26):
and that wasn't the right way to speak with you.
And I'll try to do better next time, you know
what I mean. So the best thing you can do.
And actually a lot of people think that I don't
make mistakes because I'm a parenting expert. I hate that phrase,
but you know that's what my publishers make me call myself.
But I really really am not perfect. I really lose
it with my kids sometimes. But the one thing that
(25:48):
I will always try and do is apologize to them.
So in the hitts the moment, you probably just need
to go and breathe and calm down away from the kids.
But once you've had a breathe, once you've thought about
everything calmed down, the most important thing is just to
go and apologize to them and reconnect. So it's called
the rupture remember pair cycle. There's the rupture of when
you lose it, but then there's the repair of that reconnection.
(26:11):
And it's so important for your job for the parents
to apologize to them because it teaches them all sorts
of relationship skills, but most importantly, it teaches them what
they should do in the future when they mess up
with the relationship. So if we never made a mistake,
they wouldn't learn how to apologize. So to see it
as a positive thing to right ideas of how to
(26:32):
get number one active and involved? Is that helpful? Like,
definitely give them a special job so that they feel
kind of a sense of pride and control. So it
could be that every time the baby needs a diaper check.
It's really weird, same diaper We call them nappies in
the UK, and I have to remind myself to use
a US words. But yeah, every time they need a
diaper change, then that's their job. So that they could
(26:56):
be like the diaper duty person and they get everything
together and then and their job could be because I
get the wipes out for you and piss them to you,
or if you are breastfeeding, their job could be go
and get a blanket for the baby or get a
muslin or something. So every time that they have a
role as well. But I would also if you're talking
about breastfeeding or nursing, have like a selection of toys
(27:19):
or activities that only come out when you're breastfeeding. So
that's a great tip. Get some like anything that's that's new,
that's novel to them that they really like. Put them
in a box and it only comes out. So it's like, okay,
it's time to breastfeed the baby. Now go and get
your breastfeeding toys and come and sit them next to
me and we'll go through these. But and then when
(27:40):
you finish the feed, put them away right so that
they hold a special interest. But yeah, the more jobs,
the more special activities are better. And things like if
you need to buy something for the baby, take your
first born on a shopping trip and let them pick
something out as well. This is a big sphere of mine.
So my first is a boy um and he's he's
(28:02):
an aggressive player. It's how he wrote, like his best
friends are two years older. It's a lot of wrestling.
It's so foreign to me because I'm so like I.
I can't even watch like boxing matches, Like I have
such a not a great association with physical play. And
my son is very physical, and I'm pregnant with the daughter,
(28:23):
she might be very physical too. I have no idea.
We'll see when she's like when she comes here. Um,
but my question is what is the correct language around
if your first is aggressive with your second, which I'm
sure happens to everybody, so um, two things. I think
you've got to think about why they're doing it. So
sometimes it's just just an accident, you know, they just
(28:45):
you have over enthusiastic hugs or giving them a toy,
and they don't mean to hurt the baby. They're just
toddlers and they don't have the control of the body
that we do. So there I work on teaching them
to be gentle, so you know, gentle hands or whatever.
But don't tell them to be gentle. Show them how
to be gentle. So like you could get them a
(29:05):
doll that you play with and you show them how
to This is how to gently stroke the baby, or
this is how to sort of gently hug the baby,
or something like that, but actually role play it, role
play with dolls or say to them, you know, this
is how you gently touch somebody. Let money do it
to your hand, and then you do it to me
so that they know what you mean. And then I
(29:25):
think sometimes you have to kind of let it slide
when they are a bit overenthusiastic. Um you very quickly
find that your second baby is incredibly resilient, and I
don't try as much because they get used to kind
of being hit and over if youssily stroked or something
right from the off. And they also tend to be
much easier sleep wise as well, because your toddler will
(29:47):
do something and you have to quickly put the baby down.
Then they will have to get themselves off to sleep
because you're trying to stop your toddler doing something horrendously
dangerous that if they are, if they're doing it on purpose,
so they actually purpose trying to hurt the baby, then
I would be again going back to that grief mindset,
the baby is the thing that has changed their life
(30:08):
at that moment in time. They kind of wish the
baby wasn't there, or they're showing you know, you've hurt me,
so I'm hurting you. So the way to resolve that
is not to punish them or shout at them when
they do it. It's trying to think, you know, how
can I make things better for this child so that
they don't need to behave in that way, and that
the best thing that you can do there is trying
(30:29):
to get some once a one time with them away
from the baby, and try and build that time in
every day. So even if it's like fifteen minutes and
you do bedtime together with partner or grandparents or somebody
with the baby in a totally different room. I keep
hearing this fifteen a minute magic number, which has really
been such a savior to me being pregnant and and
(30:50):
like COVID, just like if I can do fifteen minutes
once or twice a day with no phone, him leading
the play a hundred send attention, it goes miles, like
it really does, sucking miles, and it takes the pressure
of me where it's like, oh God, I don't have
that three hour window to take him on an adventure
(31:10):
of something that has never done. Like that's not happening,
you know. I mean the two things that work the
best is just ten or fifteen minutes, as you said,
put the phone down, get down on the floor with
them and play. But say to them, what do you
want to play? You decide what we do, so whatever
stupid things they want to do, that you join with them.
And then I think the most important thing that you
(31:31):
can do is do bedtime if you've got another adult
in the house. So what tends to happen when we
have another baby if there's two of you, is the
partner will then automatically take over bedtime for the firstborn
and the mom will then automatically do the baby in
the evening. But actually it works much better if you
can swap it around, because after a day with the baby,
(31:53):
what the toddler or the first one really ideally need
is time with mom and mom alone at bedtime. And
it's it's kind of the most important time of day.
It's you know, that's the end of their day where
they're processing what they've been through and they're going to sleep.
So if they can have that time with you and
dad or partner has got the baby in a different room,
and it's likely you know, if you're breastfeeding. I would
breastfeed and then kind of run and say here, take
(32:16):
the baby to take them in the car. You feel
like fifteen minutes half an hour while I do the
first one's bedtime. It has a huge impact. Yeah, that's
so interesting, mostly because I was so sick, uh, starting
at about four or five o'clock with this pregnancy that
like I was dead to the world, like I couldn't deal.
(32:37):
So he's been doing bedtime and I do mornings. He
wakes up with me and we do all of our books.
I do like thirty minutes with him in the morning,
but I guess we should switch it up. Yeah, you know.
And also the other thing is it doesn't have to
be every day, but if if you can both do
bedtime at some point, it makes them much more flexible,
so that they you end up with a child who
(32:58):
won't only go to sleep for mom or who won't
on you got to sleep with dad. And actually the
wonderful thing is it makes the baby much more flexible.
So when I talk to parents about sleep, one of
the most common questions I get is dad or partner
can't get the baby to sleep, only I can do it.
Particularly breastfeeding moms. You know, what can I do? How
can I help dad to get the baby to sleep?
(33:19):
And with your second baby, you have this marvelous sort
of opportunity from the first because if dad has the
baby in the evening or partner has the baby in
the evening, then the baby gets used to go and
to sleep for them as well as you. You end
up that like all on you exactly. So you know,
in six months time, you don't have that baby who
will only go to seep for mom, which is normal,
(33:40):
but it's a lot more helpful for you if you've
got both kids will go to sleep for both adults. Yeah,
like you've set yourself up for doing way too much
if you're just the baby, or let me just do
it because it only works when I do it. So
(34:03):
if you have family that's helping you with the baby, sisters, siblings, friends.
I know with COVID it's different, but my parents are
going to be here and they'll be watching Albie. I
was just under the impression spoil him, give him whatever
he wants, and give him all the attention in the world.
Tell me what's right or wrong and what I should
tell them they should be doing with with with baby
(34:25):
one kind of pretty much what you've just said. But
it's really important to discipline and have boundaries to a
lot of parents will start to feel so guilty that
they end up really permissive and they just do anything
the firstborn wants because they don't want to upset them anymore.
And actually that's not good for them either. So don't
be afraid to discipline him or have those boundaries and limits.
(34:49):
But also, yeah, shower him with love and attention, play
with him. If they're going to bring a gift for
the baby, I would say, can you bring a small
gift for him too? Sure? Sure, but yeah, keeps normality
going as well. It's again, at the moment it's difficult,
but if he goes to daycare or something like that,
then I would actually keep that up right, right, right right.
(35:10):
His normal things is normal activities and routines. Try and
keep them up as much as possible, because that kind
of gives us some predictability to an otherwise very unpredictable situation.
Mm hmm. We talked about the massive mom guilt. I've
had moms just breaking down crying towards the end of
(35:30):
the pregnancy with their second really morning and grieving and um,
you know, saying goodbye to what was once a two
or three family unit that's now changing up. Any advice
for those moms and those horrible feelings, The only advice
I think is that everybody will feel it to some extent.
(35:51):
There's nothing wrong with you. It's really normal, and I
think just kind of accept the feelings, but also under
some eventually they will fade. I don't think there's anything
you can do to make them go quicker. You will
absolutely have enough love for another baby. Your love has
doesn't have to be divided, it multiplies. However, guilt will
(36:11):
never completely go. You know, my eldest is eighteen, and
I still feel guilty sometimes. You know, you still have
those pangs of what if, what if there was just
you or thinking back to those times when there was
just you, And that doesn't make you a bad person.
M So just be kind to yourself. I think that's
(36:34):
the whole thing with the second baby, is just be
kind to everybody. Everybody's grieving, everybody's see I haven't felt
that yet. I'm curious. Like I'm very close with my
brother and he we have like a for everyone listening.
We have a two year nine month age difference. I
tried to recreate that, and I got an acting job
(36:57):
and couldn't have that happen. So my children are three
years and two months apart, which I will blame for
the rest of their existence when they don't get along,
which is so so stupid. But I feel like my
brother was the greatest gift my mom ever gave me.
Like period, I feel so fortunate that I don't walk
(37:17):
through my life alone, that there's one other person on
this earth that understands my parents the way we do,
you know, like my significant other will never understand my
parents like my brother does. And I feel very relieved that, like,
as we walk through our lives, that we have each other.
And that's going to be like a big hoop for
me to jump through because who knows if my children
(37:40):
will get along the way my brother. To keep reminding
use of that. And when you were a kids, there
would probably quite a lot of times when you didn't
like your brother, so you beat the ship out of
each other. Like my kids, they've got older, they've definitely
got closer together, but when they were little, it was
just like all at war. And I think so pressure
(38:00):
yourself all your children to be the greatest of friends,
and it it's also really boring for the total and
older child to have a baby. You know, babies are
really dull. When you want to play catch with them
or you want to run around with them and they
can't do anything. That relationship will grow and I don't
push them, they will push yourself to sort of have
it right from the start. But yeah, I agree. I
(38:21):
don't have any siblings, and I one thing ideally, which
is that I had a sibling, which is what I
kept reminding myself on the really bad days when my
kids were trying to kill each other. Oh my gosh,
I am so I'm very excited for this. I'm very
happy to have spent time with you talking about the
fact that I'm even having another child. And I do
(38:42):
think it's going to make my son a better person,
to be honest. And look, I know some fucking stellar
only children, you being one of them. Kerrie Washington is
an only child. My friend Angelie Cabral who has been
on this podcast, isn't only just she has step siblings.
But if you know, there are amazing only children in
the world, incredible. But I do think for my son
I'm like, good, look, he's the only grandchild, and the
(39:04):
sun moon stars sets on this freaking kid. I cannot
tell you how the attention to I mean, it is unreal,
But I'm going off on a tangent. Are there any
other pieces of advice you can give to anyone expecting
their second because you know, I think one thing I
had mentioned is think about your first birth a little bit. So,
(39:27):
particularly if your first birth was bit traumatic or it
didn't go as you want, I would always recommend you
spend some time kind of debriefing what happened, particularly if
you want to try for a natural labor second time.
So get somebody to explain the first time why things
went in the way that they did, so that you
can understand it so that you can make an informed
(39:48):
choice about your second birth and how you want things
to go. I mean a lot of second time parents
who are just, oh, we're just going to go with
the flow, and that works for a lot of people.
But if you did have a to cook time first time,
I'd really recommend spending some time focusing. Usually mentioned I
think before we started speaking, have a chat with a
doo la or or a midwife or a prenatal coach
(40:12):
to kind of process what happened. That's a that is
something we've not touched on, which is an amazing piece
of advice because I have had a lot of mom
friends heal through their second labor experience. Their first was
very traumatic and out of control feeling, and they were
petrified to give birth again. And what it did was
(40:36):
healed their first experience because they really went into their
second in a different way or having processed the first one,
and they came out of their second feeling better about
their first one. And it's not just about your second
being a perfect natural birth, having elective cesarian right, but
(40:56):
you've really things are going to go the way you
want them to this time, and you've made a plan
and you feel much more in control. Inform yourself about everything,
debrief and think about how you can take control, and yeah, absolutely,
you can put a lot of demons to bed from
your first birth, which really helps with the kind of
the bonding and the early days with the second baby.
That is incredible advice for you guys listening. I'm so
(41:19):
scared because I've had a fear of labor my entire life,
and I overstudied and overprepared and over freaked out, and
so nothing could have been as bad as I thought
it was going to be, and it wasn't. It was great.
It was like the best day of my life. It
was absolutely wonderful. And it just occurred to me the
other day, I was like, holy shit, I could have
like an emergency C section, Like it could go completely
(41:41):
differently than the first one. This pregnancy has been completely
different than the first one. Is the trick to not
compare it to the first time. What you're saying, you've
not been anxious about it probably will make it easier
this time because we carry that anxiety in that fear
to birth with us. So I think that imp is
what makes second verse easier. That obviously, if you had
(42:02):
an easy time first time around. The one thing that
I think somebody in your situation, if your first birth
was fairly easy or fairly short, like the average first
time neighbors about thirteen hours, So if it was shorter
than that, research what to do if your baby comes
before you get to the hospital or the first central
or mid my thrived. I used to be a doer.
I've been to many births, and I was an antenatal
(42:24):
teacher or prenatal teacher. And I've been at many of
what we call born before arrivals of second babies that
don't wait for medical staff for arriving at hospitals. So
just research that. There's a little bit about the book
in it. But if it happens really quickly, it's a
great sign. But just make sure you and whoever else
is with you knows what to do if it progresses
(42:46):
really quickly. Oh my god. We had a lantis more
event on this podcast, and I think it was for
a second actually had that sort of situation. The dula
never made it, the midwife never made it, her baby
was here hour, and her freaking husband. My husband would
be fainted dead on the floor. There's no way. He
(43:06):
can't even see blood. Just make sure he knows what
to do if it happens really quickly. Oh my god,
I mean, anything is possible. I've been to three second
verse that we're all born into the toilet? Do you
call them toilets? And yes, literally, mom, no medical stuff
and Mom just thought I need to go to the
loo and you need to have a poo And it
wasn't and it was a baby way that is, it
(43:28):
had just before we go. Did you any of your
four happened like that? Like? Was it so fast? So? Yeah,
my first year in hospital, and they were first was
really long. Second, I was in juice. It's quite quick
because it's in juice. I had preclamps which I think so,
which is actually one of the risks for mom if
you have a very close age. So I got pregnant
(43:50):
with my first one was six months old. Really yeah,
you know, I look back now, I think what was
I doing? Yes, so that's what you were doing, but
too much? Apparently. My third and fourth I had at home.
I actually third babies, labor tends to get longer, bizarrely,
so it's normally first long, second short, third medium. My
(44:12):
fourth baby was I think just about an hour from
first contraction to be born. Here was done at home, thankfully,
So I had a birthpall at home and I rang,
got my husband's ring the midwife, and the midwife turned
up with her coat still on and I'm my baby's
coming right now, and it was lovely. It was in Yeah,
(44:33):
all my three kids are upstairs asleep and missed all
of it. It It was kind of perfect, but would have
freaked me out of it. Happened second time. Wow. So Sarah,
thank you so much for all of your time, and
can you tell our listeners where we can find you,
where they can get your book. Say, my website is
just my name, Sarah well Smith. It's got a little
hyphen in it, dot com. I'm on Instagram as Sarah
(44:55):
or Smith. I'm on Facebook as Sarah Smith author, and
I'm on to sir as the Baby Expert which started
off as a bit of a joke, like a tongue
in cheek thing, but it kind of stopped. You got
printed on my books. I've had to keep it, so
it's the Baby expert Um and the books available kind
of everybody. You can buy books, great guys, if you
are entertaining the idea of getting pregnant with another, if
(45:18):
you're expecting your other, if you've brought your other home
and everything's going to ship, whatever. I highly recommend this
book because it has everything in it and it's so accessible.
The Second Baby Book, How to Cope with Pregnancy number
two and create a happy home for your firstborn and
new arrival. Sarah Akwill Smith, thank you so much for
coming to us from England from your very cold, beautiful place.
(45:43):
Thank you. Thank you so much everybody, and you guys.
If you have any thoughts, questions, comments, you know where
to find me. It's Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com.
Thank you all for tuning into katie Crib and for
your beautiful messages and reviews. I absolutely love connecting with
(46:04):
you and hearing your stories and questions. So email me
at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com. We may
just feature you on an episode, so hit me up. Thanks, guys.
Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shanda
land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(46:25):
or wherever you listen to your favorite ships. Never until
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