May 5, 2022 • 31 mins
Erica Chidi, Co-founder and CEO of LOOM, shares how she is using her digital platform to help people get out of the glib and into the details of women’s sexual and reproductive health.
In a patriarchal society steeped in shadow language around women’s bodies and experiences, Erica understands that words and specificity matters. In this episode, the author and former doula discusses everything from postpartum versus postpartum mood disorder to the need for biological empathy. Erica also digs into the type of curriculum LOOM offers to educate people on what to really expect before moving into the birthing experience and beyond.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. All the gender biases
that we experience as women or anyone that identifies in
a feminized way, it's it's so layered in deep, it's
it's it's about the kind of care we get in
our bodies. It's about you know, what ends up in
(00:22):
our bank account. It's about you know, the language we
used to describe ourselves, and so you know, I think
learning about your body and having that baseline understanding is
really the beginning of that of that type of activism,
baseline level exactly. Hello everybody, and welcome back to Katie's Crib.
(00:48):
I am so um happy with this episode and how
it came out. I learned so much um while we
were recording it. Um. I have the one and only
Erica chi the on the podcast today. I've wanted to
get her on for so long. Um. She's the co
founder and CEO at LOOM, which is a well being
(01:11):
platform empowering women through sexual and reproductive health education. She
was a DULA health educator, She's an author. She has
helped you guys, like literally thousands of women strengthen their
ability to care for themselves and others. She's the author
of a book called Nurture, a Modern Guide to Pregnancy, birth,
and Early Motherhood. Let's welcome the one and only Erica
(01:34):
Cheating So, Erica, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank
you so much for giving us the time and the
space to talk to you about all the incredible work
you are doing. First and foremost, can you tell me
the moment that you realized becoming a duela was the
path for you. That's such a great question, and it's
(01:57):
always hard for me to really get super clear on
exactly when that moment was. But what I will say
was that I had dabbled in quite a few things
before becoming Adua, had a little bit of a circuitous journey.
That said, I think all the things that I did
(02:19):
really laddered up well to that work, which then laddered
up well to running a text startup. But I am
I probably am like I'm a self described polymouth. I
like to do a lot of things. Growing up, it
was a little strange having so many complex not obviously
connected in dress. But I think as I've come into
(02:42):
myself as an adult, it all makes way more sense.
But in terms of knowing when I wanted to be
a dua, it actually was more about realizing that, you know,
one of my best skills is is talking, is taking
people through things, is creating simplicity at very complex topics.
(03:02):
And what I realized about pregnancy and postpartum was that
there was such a lack of understanding about the just
baseline experience of being in a pregnant body or becoming
a parent. And when I realized that what do List
did was everything that was not clinical and everything that
(03:25):
was psychosocial and educational, I really felt that that was
such a perfect place for me to sit because I
grew up in a really medical home. My dad's an
entrechronologies and infect to see specialist. My mom's a nurse,
so a lot of time in the hospital doing around
with my dad. So I felt a lot of comfort
in spaces where people tend to feel very uncomfortable and
(03:46):
tend to operate pretty uh easily without those kind of
more traditional emotions showing up. And so I really felt like, oh,
so I can be this guide during this time where
there tends to be such little support and people are
coming to this experience with such a little information. That's
(04:07):
a sweet spot for me. It's you're such a gift.
It makes me so It also, at the same time,
which we'll get into this, all the work you do
it makes me so like, oh, it makes me so
sad and frustrated and makes me feel like the work
you're doing and the work we do here on Katie's crib,
it's so important because this is a space, like there's
so little known about it, work done around it. I
(04:32):
mean honestly, people through insurance get more covered when they
blow out their knee than the postpartum experience. It's absolutely
bananas um. And also so many people are focused on
the labor, the labor, the labor, which I read you
talk about that the postpartum situation is is often forgotten
(04:52):
or not even thought about. It is, actually, to be honest,
the most important part, primarily because birth is going to happen.
Your physical physiologically set up to do that. Whether it's
a vaginal unmedicated or medicated birth or cesarean birth, it's
going to take place. And birth at its maximum is
(05:13):
seventy two hours five days. If you're having for drill labor,
we pray that's not the experience but that's the top end, right,
Whereas postpartum, the experience of being postpartum is weeks months
and there's typically such a little preparation done for that,
and so you know, to me, it's really that period
(05:34):
of time that's so important. And I think even where
I see a lot of the challenge culturally, because I'm
such a words person, you know, where it's really a
matter when we talk about postpartum. Oftentimes people describe themselves
as having postpartum as a postpartum is a thing to have,
whereas being postpartum is a physiological experience it's normal. What
(05:55):
is less normal, although it is very common, is to
have as part of mood disorder like anxiety or depression
or o c D or psychosis. And you know, that
is really the more common experience for most women, people, parents,
you know, in the United States, because there is such
a lack of infrastructure postpartum one. And the infrastructure lack
(06:17):
is actually just the lack of understanding of hey, like
you're gonna bleed for eight weeks, whether you have a
vaginal or cesarian birth. Hey, you know, breastfeeding or chest
feeding is not just like do that twice or three
times a day. It's like, no, you're gonna do it
about ten to twelve times a day, and it's going
to take you about half an hour or nine evenuts
each time, and that's before you've eaten, shower, talk to anybody,
(06:38):
and you're so sleep deprived you can't even like making
a decision. Seems like you're you're not a stable person
the let alone hormonally exactly. Yeah, I found that too
because I had I was diagnosed with postpartum depression. I
had mood disorders and chose to go on medication for you.
But when I talked about it with people, people like, oh,
(06:59):
I had part um, and I'm like, wait, I'm confused.
If you birthed a child, whether I was vagulucies or whatever,
we were all in a postpartum period. But I had
post a mood disorder like I postparted, something called postpartum depression,
postpartum anxiety. But you can't have postpartum no, No, you
are postpart you are a post part of you are
(07:20):
a postpartum person. And then you know there's there's new
there's some movements that are happy now where people like
your postpartum forever because you will always be postpaping a child.
Why is it so weird? What the hell? You know?
But you know, the thing is, it's just like, we
live in this culture that hates women. We live in
this culture that is so patriarchal, so we are going
to be like, I don't know, let's have this like
(07:42):
shadow language for this really important thing, and let's make
it hard for women to talk about it or people
to talk about it so that it continues to not
be resolved. Every time I talk, I'm on any kind
of thing, I'm always just like postpartum is a physiological
experience that's normal, postpartum sort of different and also postporder
mood disorder. It's so important to talk about it in
(08:04):
a little bit more detail because there is variability in there.
There's o c D. There's a post order o c
D which is actually such an interesting type of mood
disorder that's less discussed, which has a lot to do
with ritualistic behavior and aversions and like rigidity, which a
lot of women that I've seen over the years that
I've worked with and people actually have and it's been
(08:24):
lesser of seen and discussed. It's starting to kind of
like crest now we're talking about it. But I think
being able to be like, oh, I had this specific
mood disorder, like I was super anxious or I was
super compulsive. Like that's really helpful to not just feel
like it's a waste basket term like I just had
this thing, and like I was like a little depressed
and I was this and that the specificity is support, right,
(08:48):
So I just think it's so important for us to
be like, what actually happened. We are so lucky that
you are here. We are so lucky you are here,
is all I feel like. So you do not have
(09:09):
children yourself, right, No, I don't. You are also an
advocate for people who don't have children to be a
part of the birth experience. Can you explain that? Yeah,
thanks to that question. You know, I remember when I
started off, you know, do or who? I was really
on them thirty five now, so I guess it was
maybe like twenty four or somewhere ever or something like that.
I always like, oh, like, maybe there's a stigma because
(09:32):
I don't have a child, But the reality is that
we as a culture need to have what a term
that I've concept that this idea of biological empathy, right,
so even if you haven't had the experience, we should
have enough health education, health information to be empathetic to
(09:52):
someone that has gone through something that we have not
yet experienced. You know, a great example of just like
active biological empathy to me is when I see someone
see a pregnant persons either body, and then be like, Okay,
open the door for you. Oh do you need that there?
Take my seat in a subway, here, take my seat
in the blah blah bae exactly. But you know, wouldn't
(10:13):
it be really wonderful if that type of desire or
action was present whether you saw the person was pregnant
or not, if you could not tell. In terms of
the reason why I think non pregnant people or people
have not had children need to be able to step
in and be supportive and and and be around it
is because really, when people become pregnant, there is this
(10:35):
like divorce that happens from their life as they knew it.
They're like, oh, I don't have any mom friends or
parent friends. Now I got to go out into the
pasture and go find these new people. And you know,
to me, it's like, what would it look like if
your current community could hold you could evolve with you,
because the truth is, you know, if they don't have kids,
I can come over. I can do all kinds of
(10:56):
ship for you. I could like do a grocery run.
I can like, you know, come hold the big off
you whant you take a shower? Like you know, I
can take your dog for a walk. It's like having
non non child friends when you have children is a
boon if they know how to show up for you
and so to me, a lot of times I say
people they don't have kids, read my book, like or
(11:16):
you know, take a childbirth ed class. You know, especially
we might say to people what we're doing at LOOM
with our current first program that's pregnancy and postpartum. I'm
I'm very much in the head space of yes, it
is for pregnant and post part of people, but it's
also for people that aren't who have a lot of people.
If you have five people in your life they're pregnant,
take the program, check it out. Have some things that
(11:38):
you can bring to the conversation besides how you're doing.
You know, I have a few friends who don't have kids,
and my goodness, like when they come over and just
help me be a hand for a bedtime with my
two it's the best because they're available and completely capable. Yeah,
I think definitely in America, at least in white American culture,
(12:02):
there is a lack of It's very well, how's a
lot to do with this idea of like the nuclear family,
that you should be self reliant, that two people should
take care of one baby, which is nonsense, especially when
people people don't really understand that newborns have constant need.
They've come out of being in the ters where they
(12:23):
had constant movement, constant tempt, regulation, constant connection ten fours
a day, some days a week. Then all of a
sudden they come into the world and they're kind of like, Hi,
I'd like that to continue in some way, shape or form.
And then you are just like who you're fun. You
don't even I pat the new board stage. I can't
(12:45):
do it ever again. Like I literally thought I was
going to be like admitted into some place where I
was unfit for parenting. Like newborn stage is so bananas
to me and not for everyone. And I've had friends
with polar opposite experiences where the love bubble that they
are existing in that they are crying of overwhelmed with
(13:07):
how happy they are. You couldn't get more opposite for
my new born experience. Like I really hear that. I mean,
and I've seen both sides, and I'll tell you and
I'll make a bet. I bet you that the women
or people who are describing this overwhelmed have a very
supportive partner, have like a parent that they like, maybe
(13:28):
they've got a postpartum dulah, maybe they have a night nurse,
like there's some their packet heat. You're not, I mean,
you're not, just like I'm by myself, you know what? Yes?
Like true? So your life leading you to DULA work,
Dula work leading you to LOOM. Tell us all about Loom,
tell us what it offers. Loom is this wonderful, exciting
(13:53):
platform that is all about helping women and people optimize
or sexual reproductive health. And we're doing that through educate
sationing community. So that we opened in Seen is a
brick and mortar space, but we launched our first program
and the digital platform in this summer, and so our
first programs pregnancy and postpartum, and you know, we've been
(14:14):
talking all about that experience, but it's a really amazing
comprehensive program that really focuses on the first three weeks
or pregnancy through about the first two to three months postpartum.
And it's really basically taking at your own pace essentially
like masterclass, but you know, making pregnancy and postpartum. And
then there's also live group support through this kind of
(14:36):
weekly gathering event that's actually called gather where women and
parents of people can come together and check in all
through the different trimesters and postpartum. So are you guys
all hearing this? Like everyone listening to this? This is
fucking genius. It is There is a real hole and
(14:58):
need for this. Uh now, more than ever, this sense
of community is I mean I hear more than anything
from this podcast is is women just doing things alone
and how much better they are and feel and can
face all of it when they don't feel that way.
(15:19):
Um and loom just sounds like I mean, obviously the
weekly class is called Gather people. Yeah, we're getting together.
Put we're putting people together. Uh. But yeah, it's it's
it's been. It's been a really wonderful experience to see
how much it's already improving people's lives in terms of
from a mental health perspective, you know, the ability to
(15:41):
re really be able to know what to expect before
moving into you know, your birthing experience, to know what's
really happening. For a part of in the way that
the curriculum is structured is it's not just like, okay,
here's how to breathe, you know. You know, there's a lesson,
uh in the program that's called how to Push where
(16:02):
I really break down the fact that you know, when
you're pushing, you're not trying to take a big poop.
You know, those are your anti your pelvic floor. Yeah,
you're not trying to ship. You're actually trying to use
your your anterior public floor muscles, like the muscles that
you use when you're peeing or if you're trying to
push a tampon out or push a construal cut. And
most people don't realize that because everyone's okay, when you push,
(16:24):
you you're just like you're taking a big poop, and
it's like it's not actually the right it's not the
right muscles. So things like that because these like kind
of who came up with that? It's like it also
why the tail, It's a little bit of that it's
like you're doing something like that, but it's not exactly that.
It's at the same thing when we talked about postpartum,
it's like I had postpartum. It's like, you know, you
had to postport a mood disorder. It's like, Okay, when
(16:46):
you push, it's like you're taking a ship. It's like, no, actually,
it's sup pushing on a tamp on your peeing. It's
a different It's just like trying to get out of
the globe and get into the details. And then you know,
one of my favorite topics in the program is gonna
go you and advocate. That's all about teaching pregnant people
how to negotiate with their care providers because most you know,
(17:07):
my my thought was in our thought at LOOM was
most women have trouble negotiating pay, trouble negotiating their sexual needs,
you know, all of those things. So you know, of
course you're gonna have trouble negotiating you know, an induction
or cesarian birth, or you know they're just stational diabetes
testing or you know, whatever the things they need to negotiate.
So your scripts in there to be like, okay, here's
how to talk to your care provider. Uh so, and
(17:29):
then you know, we go into sex, we talk about
just like what to expect like during the pregnancy afterwards,
and then things like just your food. I mean, most
people don't realize that when you're pregnant, you actually are
in a diabetogenic state, meaning that you essentially physiologically are
functioning like you have babies. So what you need to
be eating is like complex carbohydrates, like really pulling back
(17:50):
on sugar, eating more protein. And if people know that
right from the beginning, I did not know that. I
did not know that. I don't know. It's a it's
a metabolic shift that if you have an awareness of it,
you can like steer away from just stational diabetes, you know,
because a lot of people like eat for two and like, sure,
eat hungry. I would eat everything that you need to,
(18:11):
but let's try to make it for these groups of
foods so that we land where you need to. Yeah.
And also if you push the proteins and the complex carbohydrates, like,
you'll probably feel fuller and then you won't be grabbing
like the crap, which then does not help the gestational
diabetes in twenty weeks or whatever. Wow, exactly exactly in
(18:39):
your New York Times article, you list a number of
language samples um that women can use when speaking to
their care providers, and then I think in The York
Times are black women specifically? Can you talk to me
about that? Yeah, so that article which is now become
(19:01):
a grant that we're working on with Stanford. Yeah, that's awesome,
it's very exciting. But basically the the article was really
about protecting black birth and I concepted this idea and
then co uh executed on it with Dr k Hill.
(19:21):
Dr Eric K. Hill is an amazing o Begunde researcher
epidemiologist at Stanford, and I for a long time, way
before it hit the press cycle around the mortual mortality
rates for a black woman, I was I have been
aware of it for years and had had a look
at that early data, and by the time it became
this major talking point, I was already exhausted and frustrated
(19:42):
by the situation, and really where I was landing inside
of it was we need to actually be able to
talk about racial anxiety. We need to be able to
talk about the fact that because of the way that
I look, I am more than likely going to to
get some hard care when it comes to my pregnancy
(20:04):
and postpartum experience. And so to me, I felt, especially
for years and years with dual work, knowing that you know,
when people come up with earth preferences and they're taking
their care provider through it, there is some support that
happens there. And so my feeling was, what would it
be like if we could put the words to the
page of hey, like, here's what's going on as a
(20:25):
result of my you know, existence as the black woman,
I might be more susceptible to X, Y and Z.
How can you support me around this? You know? And
so that really was the basis of the tool, which
is what that that was. And you know, the decision
that Eric and I both made, or Dr Khill and
I both made, was that instead of just trying to
put this straight into research and get it into journal articles,
(20:48):
because what happens is when things get published in a journal,
it takes anywhere from like eight to ten years for
it to go from the journal down to the hospital floor,
was to do a reverse process of putting into the media,
letting the media take hold of it, and having people
just actively start to use that tool in their own
way and then be able to go from there and
put it back into research. So we're working on a
(21:09):
qualitative study right now with that tool to basically improve
it UM and hopefully over time be able to get
it into clinical settings where you know, when you walk
into especially like a big hospital group or magna hospital,
say a Kaiser or u c l A. If you
are bipoc or if you're a black woman, it just
becomes a part of the care tools that you're getting UM.
(21:32):
The way you get a birth preference plan to take
home UM, you would have that be a part of
your part of your care because I think you know,
if we're really thinking about protecting black birth, it can't
it can't be up to black women to do it.
There needs to be a a dual support system, and
so really putting that putting that onus back on care
providers and giving them tools and frameworks to be able
(21:55):
to address it is so important. In the Pregnancy and
Postpartum program, there's a specific module is for black women
to help them prepare around their birth experience. But the
actual New York Times article, which is free and available
to everyone, has the full script there, so people are
able to use that as well. Oh my god, I
mean this is I have goofed. I mean it's just
(22:18):
so important and so I don't know how things like
this will get better. But without all the work you're doing,
it's not going to happen. So yeah, it's just so
I'm so happy that you're doing all the things you're doing. Um.
I also love this which I read that you believe
(22:40):
women fighting and taking up space and responsibility for their
reproductive health is a form of activism. I do. I
really feel that way, and I think, you know, any
type of reclamation that we can't do for ourselves is
a form of justice, is a form of activism. And
you know, for me, when what reproducted us is, it's
(23:01):
it goes beyond just access to safe sexual reproductive care,
access to a safe abortion, access to health education about
your body. It's also being paid you know, equally as well,
and when you're in a position to also employ people,
making sure that you're paying them what they need to
be paid. Because all the gender biases that we experience
(23:25):
as women or anyone that identifies in a feminized way,
it's it's so layered in deep, it's it's it's about
the kind of care we get to in our bodies.
It's about you know, what ends up in our bank account,
It's about you know, the language we use to describe ourselves.
And so you know, I think learning about your body
(23:46):
and having that baseline understanding is really the beginning of
that of that type of activism. And I think what
we're doing with loom as we're growing. You know, we're
in the process right now of working on an app
that will launch you know later next Steater that's really
going to explore the entire sexual reproductive health spectrum, so
everything from menopause to fertility, hybroids, you know, all of
(24:09):
these different My god, Erica, this is amazing. It's really exciting.
So that's that's currently in the works and we're really
heads down, you know, doing what we need to do
to get that done. It's very clear that the more
education that we can put in the hands of women
and people to be able to know what's going on
with their bodies at a baseline level, baseline level. I
(24:32):
was like, I'm starting interrupting now. When I was trying
to get I had a miscarriage and then you know,
someone was like, you should go to this um fertility
acupuncturist like on the East Side in l A And
and she can help you get your periods back to
normal since you had a d n C. And I
wasn't getting periods regularly, and I know, I felt like
a it was really fucked up. And I went to her,
(24:56):
thank you. But I went to her and she was
the first person that sat me down at thirty six
years old with an app and explained to me what
the different mucus is coming out of my vagina mean.
And I was mortified, like that I was learning this
(25:17):
for the first time, like because she was helping me
try to get pregnant again. And she was like, okay,
so when you know, you stick your finger up there
and this comes out and it looks like this texture
in this liquid. And I'm like, how have I not known? Focus?
Is this is on purpose? Like this has to be
on this is a nightmare. It was completely the first
(25:38):
time that I ever even realized that I hadn't been
taught any of these things, and then started to critically think,
was that on purpose? Yeah? It is on purpose. That's
the thing I think. When we boil it all down,
you know, we are very much under his eyes patriarchy,
it's misogyny, it is it is very dark if we
(25:59):
really sit with it. At the same time, though, at LOOM,
when we're still open in a brick and mortar and
they would teach them, I would teach our periods class.
One of the disclaimers I would always kick off with
was saying, look, if you feel shame or discomfort tonight
as I'm unpacking this information, that's okay, Like it's welcome.
(26:21):
It's okay for that emotion to be here because our
culture has been designed for you not to know this.
So just feel a sense of ease with the shame
because it's by design. And so when I hear you
talking about that, it's it's it's such a gentle reminder
for me because it was such a big part of
(26:43):
the education. Was really just like shame metabolization, you know,
like how do you just get more comfortable? Because if
you can get more comfortable with the shame, that you
can just be like, well, fuck it, I guess I
don't know any of this ship, So can I just
read a couple of books? Can you talk to me
about it? You know what I mean. It's made me
so empowered too to help other friends get pregnant. Like,
I've sat down and had so many coffees with women
(27:04):
who were like, I'm so sad. I don't know what's
going on. I don't know my body, I don't know
what's wrong. And I'm like, Okay, well, let's like really
talk about it. Have you really sat down and like
studied yourself? I mean when women are like I don't
really understand when I'm ovulating, Like I don't really know,
and I'm like, what the fuck this is crazy? Um?
(27:26):
You moonlight as a co host of a Goop podcast.
That's awesome. Yeah, it's super super fun, super fun. Who
has been your favorite chat so far? Like regarding reproductive health?
Oh yeah? Um. Lm or Cleghorn who wrote a book
called Unwell Women really really interesting. She's basically the UK.
(27:51):
She's a medical historian art historian too. But the book
is all about just medical myths and just kind of
a tyranny of misogyny and the jerpey and how it's
really created a lot of issues for women around healthcare.
For example, the fact that cardiac issues are the number
one killer of women. Most women don't really understand what
they need to be taking care of their cardiac health.
(28:14):
So things like that. But great book, not a happy topic,
but really interesting. Yes, but this is the information we need.
What is it called one more Time Unwell Women? Unwell Women?
Tell me? What are the other things in the works
for loom in. We've got the app, which is sounds insane. Yeah,
(28:36):
app is gonna be great, and um yeah, we're actually
going to be kicking back off our newsletter, so folks
should definitely like sign up for that. It's gonna be
really fun and juicy and filled with like all the
good sr H things, s R exception predict health and
um yeah there's other things, but sign up for the
newsletter day like keep posted and for the newsletter, we
(28:58):
could just go on the loom site and sign up correct, Yeah,
it'll it'll be right there. But also I will well,
I'll follow up and give you all the all the goods.
Like definitely we've like posting and sharing to all of
our listeners. This is this is needed needed. Do you
have a personal lifelong dream that you want to accomplish
(29:22):
within the sexual and reproductive health field? I think for me,
really my lifelong dream in terms of sexual with corrective
health is to really feel that I've made an impact
in how women and people talk about their bodies and
understand their bodies. And so I feel like I'm at
(29:42):
base camp right now of that dream in terms of,
you know, kind of building that out. And I think, honestly,
I'm excited to write more books. I've you know, I'm
kind of working on my second book right now, which
will be a big highlighted focus on sexually productive health
because my first book was only about pregnancy and postpartum
and what is the name of the book for all
(30:03):
of us listening. The first book is called Nurture, a
Modern Guide to Pregnancy, birth, and early motherhood and trusting
your body and trusting yourself. That is the bold title.
And I feel really grateful, not lucky, as my mom
would say. I'm grateful that, you know, I'm getting the
chance to uh really show up and and and have
(30:24):
these kinds of conversations. And you know, I've I've been
a little bit in the background over the past kind
of year and a half, really heads down doing all
the things that we needed to do to get LOOM
where it is right now. But I'm really excited to
step forward a little bit more and and we dialogueing
like this and just you know, creating the space especially
(30:45):
you know, for me as a black woman, is a
woman holding all these different experiences and wanting to be
able to speak to just sexually productive health from this
more marginalized perspective too, I think is so important. Erica,
this is amazing. I'm very blown away and I'm so
(31:05):
grateful you're here doing this because you're pushing the biggest
Boulder bill. She's out here. I mean, you were out there,
you are doing it. Bye, thank you guys so much
(31:27):
for listening to today's episode. I want to hear from you.
Let's chat questions, comments, concerns. Let me know you can
always find me at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com.
Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shanda
land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(31:49):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
Welcome to Katie's Crib, a production of Shonda land Audio
in partnership with I Heart Radio. All the gender biases
that we experience as women or anyone that identifies in
a feminized way, it's it's so layered in deep, it's
it's it's about the kind of care we get in
our bodies. It's about you know, what ends up in
(00:22):
our bank account. It's about you know, the language we
used to describe ourselves, and so you know, I think
learning about your body and having that baseline understanding is
really the beginning of that of that type of activism,
baseline level exactly. Hello everybody, and welcome back to Katie's Crib.
(00:48):
I am so um happy with this episode and how
it came out. I learned so much um while we
were recording it. Um. I have the one and only
Erica chi the on the podcast today. I've wanted to
get her on for so long. Um. She's the co
founder and CEO at LOOM, which is a well being
(01:11):
platform empowering women through sexual and reproductive health education. She
was a DULA health educator, She's an author. She has
helped you guys, like literally thousands of women strengthen their
ability to care for themselves and others. She's the author
of a book called Nurture, a Modern Guide to Pregnancy, birth,
and Early Motherhood. Let's welcome the one and only Erica
(01:34):
Cheating So, Erica, it's a pleasure to meet you. Thank
you so much for giving us the time and the
space to talk to you about all the incredible work
you are doing. First and foremost, can you tell me
the moment that you realized becoming a duela was the
path for you. That's such a great question, and it's
(01:57):
always hard for me to really get super clear on
exactly when that moment was. But what I will say
was that I had dabbled in quite a few things
before becoming Adua, had a little bit of a circuitous journey.
That said, I think all the things that I did
(02:19):
really laddered up well to that work, which then laddered
up well to running a text startup. But I am
I probably am like I'm a self described polymouth. I
like to do a lot of things. Growing up, it
was a little strange having so many complex not obviously
connected in dress. But I think as I've come into
(02:42):
myself as an adult, it all makes way more sense.
But in terms of knowing when I wanted to be
a dua, it actually was more about realizing that, you know,
one of my best skills is is talking, is taking
people through things, is creating simplicity at very complex topics.
(03:02):
And what I realized about pregnancy and postpartum was that
there was such a lack of understanding about the just
baseline experience of being in a pregnant body or becoming
a parent. And when I realized that what do List
did was everything that was not clinical and everything that
(03:25):
was psychosocial and educational, I really felt that that was
such a perfect place for me to sit because I
grew up in a really medical home. My dad's an
entrechronologies and infect to see specialist. My mom's a nurse,
so a lot of time in the hospital doing around
with my dad. So I felt a lot of comfort
in spaces where people tend to feel very uncomfortable and
(03:46):
tend to operate pretty uh easily without those kind of
more traditional emotions showing up. And so I really felt like, oh,
so I can be this guide during this time where
there tends to be such little support and people are
coming to this experience with such a little information. That's
(04:07):
a sweet spot for me. It's you're such a gift.
It makes me so It also, at the same time,
which we'll get into this, all the work you do
it makes me so like, oh, it makes me so
sad and frustrated and makes me feel like the work
you're doing and the work we do here on Katie's crib,
it's so important because this is a space, like there's
so little known about it, work done around it. I
(04:32):
mean honestly, people through insurance get more covered when they
blow out their knee than the postpartum experience. It's absolutely
bananas um. And also so many people are focused on
the labor, the labor, the labor, which I read you
talk about that the postpartum situation is is often forgotten
(04:52):
or not even thought about. It is, actually, to be honest,
the most important part, primarily because birth is going to happen.
Your physical physiologically set up to do that. Whether it's
a vaginal unmedicated or medicated birth or cesarean birth, it's
going to take place. And birth at its maximum is
(05:13):
seventy two hours five days. If you're having for drill labor,
we pray that's not the experience but that's the top end, right,
Whereas postpartum, the experience of being postpartum is weeks months
and there's typically such a little preparation done for that,
and so you know, to me, it's really that period
(05:34):
of time that's so important. And I think even where
I see a lot of the challenge culturally, because I'm
such a words person, you know, where it's really a
matter when we talk about postpartum. Oftentimes people describe themselves
as having postpartum as a postpartum is a thing to have,
whereas being postpartum is a physiological experience it's normal. What
(05:55):
is less normal, although it is very common, is to
have as part of mood disorder like anxiety or depression
or o c D or psychosis. And you know, that
is really the more common experience for most women, people, parents,
you know, in the United States, because there is such
a lack of infrastructure postpartum one. And the infrastructure lack
(06:17):
is actually just the lack of understanding of hey, like
you're gonna bleed for eight weeks, whether you have a
vaginal or cesarian birth. Hey, you know, breastfeeding or chest
feeding is not just like do that twice or three
times a day. It's like, no, you're gonna do it
about ten to twelve times a day, and it's going
to take you about half an hour or nine evenuts
each time, and that's before you've eaten, shower, talk to anybody,
(06:38):
and you're so sleep deprived you can't even like making
a decision. Seems like you're you're not a stable person
the let alone hormonally exactly. Yeah, I found that too
because I had I was diagnosed with postpartum depression. I
had mood disorders and chose to go on medication for you.
But when I talked about it with people, people like, oh,
(06:59):
I had part um, and I'm like, wait, I'm confused.
If you birthed a child, whether I was vagulucies or whatever,
we were all in a postpartum period. But I had
post a mood disorder like I postparted, something called postpartum depression,
postpartum anxiety. But you can't have postpartum no, No, you
are postpart you are a post part of you are
(07:20):
a postpartum person. And then you know there's there's new
there's some movements that are happy now where people like
your postpartum forever because you will always be postpaping a child.
Why is it so weird? What the hell? You know?
But you know, the thing is, it's just like, we
live in this culture that hates women. We live in
this culture that is so patriarchal, so we are going
to be like, I don't know, let's have this like
(07:42):
shadow language for this really important thing, and let's make
it hard for women to talk about it or people
to talk about it so that it continues to not
be resolved. Every time I talk, I'm on any kind
of thing, I'm always just like postpartum is a physiological
experience that's normal, postpartum sort of different and also postporder
mood disorder. It's so important to talk about it in
(08:04):
a little bit more detail because there is variability in there.
There's o c D. There's a post order o c
D which is actually such an interesting type of mood
disorder that's less discussed, which has a lot to do
with ritualistic behavior and aversions and like rigidity, which a
lot of women that I've seen over the years that
I've worked with and people actually have and it's been
(08:24):
lesser of seen and discussed. It's starting to kind of
like crest now we're talking about it. But I think
being able to be like, oh, I had this specific
mood disorder, like I was super anxious or I was
super compulsive. Like that's really helpful to not just feel
like it's a waste basket term like I just had
this thing, and like I was like a little depressed
and I was this and that the specificity is support, right,
(08:48):
So I just think it's so important for us to
be like, what actually happened. We are so lucky that
you are here. We are so lucky you are here,
is all I feel like. So you do not have
(09:09):
children yourself, right, No, I don't. You are also an
advocate for people who don't have children to be a
part of the birth experience. Can you explain that? Yeah,
thanks to that question. You know, I remember when I
started off, you know, do or who? I was really
on them thirty five now, so I guess it was
maybe like twenty four or somewhere ever or something like that.
I always like, oh, like, maybe there's a stigma because
(09:32):
I don't have a child, But the reality is that
we as a culture need to have what a term
that I've concept that this idea of biological empathy, right,
so even if you haven't had the experience, we should
have enough health education, health information to be empathetic to
(09:52):
someone that has gone through something that we have not
yet experienced. You know, a great example of just like
active biological empathy to me is when I see someone
see a pregnant persons either body, and then be like, Okay,
open the door for you. Oh do you need that there?
Take my seat in a subway, here, take my seat
in the blah blah bae exactly. But you know, wouldn't
(10:13):
it be really wonderful if that type of desire or
action was present whether you saw the person was pregnant
or not, if you could not tell. In terms of
the reason why I think non pregnant people or people
have not had children need to be able to step
in and be supportive and and and be around it
is because really, when people become pregnant, there is this
(10:35):
like divorce that happens from their life as they knew it.
They're like, oh, I don't have any mom friends or
parent friends. Now I got to go out into the
pasture and go find these new people. And you know,
to me, it's like, what would it look like if
your current community could hold you could evolve with you,
because the truth is, you know, if they don't have kids,
I can come over. I can do all kinds of
(10:56):
ship for you. I could like do a grocery run.
I can like, you know, come hold the big off
you whant you take a shower? Like you know, I
can take your dog for a walk. It's like having
non non child friends when you have children is a
boon if they know how to show up for you
and so to me, a lot of times I say
people they don't have kids, read my book, like or
(11:16):
you know, take a childbirth ed class. You know, especially
we might say to people what we're doing at LOOM
with our current first program that's pregnancy and postpartum. I'm
I'm very much in the head space of yes, it
is for pregnant and post part of people, but it's
also for people that aren't who have a lot of people.
If you have five people in your life they're pregnant,
take the program, check it out. Have some things that
(11:38):
you can bring to the conversation besides how you're doing.
You know, I have a few friends who don't have kids,
and my goodness, like when they come over and just
help me be a hand for a bedtime with my
two it's the best because they're available and completely capable. Yeah,
I think definitely in America, at least in white American culture,
(12:02):
there is a lack of It's very well, how's a
lot to do with this idea of like the nuclear family,
that you should be self reliant, that two people should
take care of one baby, which is nonsense, especially when
people people don't really understand that newborns have constant need.
They've come out of being in the ters where they
(12:23):
had constant movement, constant tempt, regulation, constant connection ten fours
a day, some days a week. Then all of a
sudden they come into the world and they're kind of like, Hi,
I'd like that to continue in some way, shape or form.
And then you are just like who you're fun. You
don't even I pat the new board stage. I can't
(12:45):
do it ever again. Like I literally thought I was
going to be like admitted into some place where I
was unfit for parenting. Like newborn stage is so bananas
to me and not for everyone. And I've had friends
with polar opposite experiences where the love bubble that they
are existing in that they are crying of overwhelmed with
(13:07):
how happy they are. You couldn't get more opposite for
my new born experience. Like I really hear that. I mean,
and I've seen both sides, and I'll tell you and
I'll make a bet. I bet you that the women
or people who are describing this overwhelmed have a very
supportive partner, have like a parent that they like, maybe
(13:28):
they've got a postpartum dulah, maybe they have a night nurse,
like there's some their packet heat. You're not, I mean,
you're not, just like I'm by myself, you know what? Yes?
Like true? So your life leading you to DULA work,
Dula work leading you to LOOM. Tell us all about Loom,
tell us what it offers. Loom is this wonderful, exciting
(13:53):
platform that is all about helping women and people optimize
or sexual reproductive health. And we're doing that through educate
sationing community. So that we opened in Seen is a
brick and mortar space, but we launched our first program
and the digital platform in this summer, and so our
first programs pregnancy and postpartum, and you know, we've been
(14:14):
talking all about that experience, but it's a really amazing
comprehensive program that really focuses on the first three weeks
or pregnancy through about the first two to three months postpartum.
And it's really basically taking at your own pace essentially
like masterclass, but you know, making pregnancy and postpartum. And
then there's also live group support through this kind of
(14:36):
weekly gathering event that's actually called gather where women and
parents of people can come together and check in all
through the different trimesters and postpartum. So are you guys
all hearing this? Like everyone listening to this? This is
fucking genius. It is There is a real hole and
(14:58):
need for this. Uh now, more than ever, this sense
of community is I mean I hear more than anything
from this podcast is is women just doing things alone
and how much better they are and feel and can
face all of it when they don't feel that way.
(15:19):
Um and loom just sounds like I mean, obviously the
weekly class is called Gather people. Yeah, we're getting together.
Put we're putting people together. Uh. But yeah, it's it's
it's been. It's been a really wonderful experience to see
how much it's already improving people's lives in terms of
from a mental health perspective, you know, the ability to
(15:41):
re really be able to know what to expect before
moving into you know, your birthing experience, to know what's
really happening. For a part of in the way that
the curriculum is structured is it's not just like, okay,
here's how to breathe, you know. You know, there's a lesson,
uh in the program that's called how to Push where
(16:02):
I really break down the fact that you know, when
you're pushing, you're not trying to take a big poop.
You know, those are your anti your pelvic floor. Yeah,
you're not trying to ship. You're actually trying to use
your your anterior public floor muscles, like the muscles that
you use when you're peeing or if you're trying to
push a tampon out or push a construal cut. And
most people don't realize that because everyone's okay, when you push,
(16:24):
you you're just like you're taking a big poop, and
it's like it's not actually the right it's not the
right muscles. So things like that because these like kind
of who came up with that? It's like it also
why the tail, It's a little bit of that it's
like you're doing something like that, but it's not exactly that.
It's at the same thing when we talked about postpartum,
it's like I had postpartum. It's like, you know, you
had to postport a mood disorder. It's like, Okay, when
(16:46):
you push, it's like you're taking a ship. It's like, no, actually,
it's sup pushing on a tamp on your peeing. It's
a different It's just like trying to get out of
the globe and get into the details. And then you know,
one of my favorite topics in the program is gonna
go you and advocate. That's all about teaching pregnant people
how to negotiate with their care providers because most you know,
(17:07):
my my thought was in our thought at LOOM was
most women have trouble negotiating pay, trouble negotiating their sexual needs,
you know, all of those things. So you know, of
course you're gonna have trouble negotiating you know, an induction
or cesarian birth, or you know they're just stational diabetes
testing or you know, whatever the things they need to negotiate.
So your scripts in there to be like, okay, here's
how to talk to your care provider. Uh so, and
(17:29):
then you know, we go into sex, we talk about
just like what to expect like during the pregnancy afterwards,
and then things like just your food. I mean, most
people don't realize that when you're pregnant, you actually are
in a diabetogenic state, meaning that you essentially physiologically are
functioning like you have babies. So what you need to
be eating is like complex carbohydrates, like really pulling back
(17:50):
on sugar, eating more protein. And if people know that
right from the beginning, I did not know that. I
did not know that. I don't know. It's a it's
a metabolic shift that if you have an awareness of it,
you can like steer away from just stational diabetes, you know,
because a lot of people like eat for two and like, sure,
eat hungry. I would eat everything that you need to,
(18:11):
but let's try to make it for these groups of
foods so that we land where you need to. Yeah.
And also if you push the proteins and the complex carbohydrates, like,
you'll probably feel fuller and then you won't be grabbing
like the crap, which then does not help the gestational
diabetes in twenty weeks or whatever. Wow, exactly exactly in
(18:39):
your New York Times article, you list a number of
language samples um that women can use when speaking to
their care providers, and then I think in The York
Times are black women specifically? Can you talk to me
about that? Yeah, so that article which is now become
(19:01):
a grant that we're working on with Stanford. Yeah, that's awesome,
it's very exciting. But basically the the article was really
about protecting black birth and I concepted this idea and
then co uh executed on it with Dr k Hill.
(19:21):
Dr Eric K. Hill is an amazing o Begunde researcher
epidemiologist at Stanford, and I for a long time, way
before it hit the press cycle around the mortual mortality
rates for a black woman, I was I have been
aware of it for years and had had a look
at that early data, and by the time it became
this major talking point, I was already exhausted and frustrated
(19:42):
by the situation, and really where I was landing inside
of it was we need to actually be able to
talk about racial anxiety. We need to be able to
talk about the fact that because of the way that
I look, I am more than likely going to to
get some hard care when it comes to my pregnancy
(20:04):
and postpartum experience. And so to me, I felt, especially
for years and years with dual work, knowing that you know,
when people come up with earth preferences and they're taking
their care provider through it, there is some support that
happens there. And so my feeling was, what would it
be like if we could put the words to the
page of hey, like, here's what's going on as a
(20:25):
result of my you know, existence as the black woman,
I might be more susceptible to X, Y and Z.
How can you support me around this? You know? And
so that really was the basis of the tool, which
is what that that was. And you know, the decision
that Eric and I both made, or Dr Khill and
I both made, was that instead of just trying to
put this straight into research and get it into journal articles,
(20:48):
because what happens is when things get published in a journal,
it takes anywhere from like eight to ten years for
it to go from the journal down to the hospital floor,
was to do a reverse process of putting into the media,
letting the media take hold of it, and having people
just actively start to use that tool in their own
way and then be able to go from there and
put it back into research. So we're working on a
(21:09):
qualitative study right now with that tool to basically improve
it UM and hopefully over time be able to get
it into clinical settings where you know, when you walk
into especially like a big hospital group or magna hospital,
say a Kaiser or u c l A. If you
are bipoc or if you're a black woman, it just
becomes a part of the care tools that you're getting UM.
(21:32):
The way you get a birth preference plan to take
home UM, you would have that be a part of
your part of your care because I think you know,
if we're really thinking about protecting black birth, it can't
it can't be up to black women to do it.
There needs to be a a dual support system, and
so really putting that putting that onus back on care
providers and giving them tools and frameworks to be able
(21:55):
to address it is so important. In the Pregnancy and
Postpartum program, there's a specific module is for black women
to help them prepare around their birth experience. But the
actual New York Times article, which is free and available
to everyone, has the full script there, so people are
able to use that as well. Oh my god, I
mean this is I have goofed. I mean it's just
(22:18):
so important and so I don't know how things like
this will get better. But without all the work you're doing,
it's not going to happen. So yeah, it's just so
I'm so happy that you're doing all the things you're doing. Um.
I also love this which I read that you believe
(22:40):
women fighting and taking up space and responsibility for their
reproductive health is a form of activism. I do. I
really feel that way, and I think, you know, any
type of reclamation that we can't do for ourselves is
a form of justice, is a form of activism. And
you know, for me, when what reproducted us is, it's
(23:01):
it goes beyond just access to safe sexual reproductive care,
access to a safe abortion, access to health education about
your body. It's also being paid you know, equally as well,
and when you're in a position to also employ people,
making sure that you're paying them what they need to
be paid. Because all the gender biases that we experience
(23:25):
as women or anyone that identifies in a feminized way,
it's it's so layered in deep, it's it's it's about
the kind of care we get to in our bodies.
It's about you know, what ends up in our bank account,
It's about you know, the language we use to describe ourselves.
And so you know, I think learning about your body
(23:46):
and having that baseline understanding is really the beginning of
that of that type of activism. And I think what
we're doing with loom as we're growing. You know, we're
in the process right now of working on an app
that will launch you know later next Steater that's really
going to explore the entire sexual reproductive health spectrum, so
everything from menopause to fertility, hybroids, you know, all of
(24:09):
these different My god, Erica, this is amazing. It's really exciting.
So that's that's currently in the works and we're really
heads down, you know, doing what we need to do
to get that done. It's very clear that the more
education that we can put in the hands of women
and people to be able to know what's going on
with their bodies at a baseline level, baseline level. I
(24:32):
was like, I'm starting interrupting now. When I was trying
to get I had a miscarriage and then you know,
someone was like, you should go to this um fertility
acupuncturist like on the East Side in l A And
and she can help you get your periods back to
normal since you had a d n C. And I
wasn't getting periods regularly, and I know, I felt like
a it was really fucked up. And I went to her,
(24:56):
thank you. But I went to her and she was
the first person that sat me down at thirty six
years old with an app and explained to me what
the different mucus is coming out of my vagina mean.
And I was mortified, like that I was learning this
(25:17):
for the first time, like because she was helping me
try to get pregnant again. And she was like, okay,
so when you know, you stick your finger up there
and this comes out and it looks like this texture
in this liquid. And I'm like, how have I not known? Focus?
Is this is on purpose? Like this has to be
on this is a nightmare. It was completely the first
(25:38):
time that I ever even realized that I hadn't been
taught any of these things, and then started to critically think,
was that on purpose? Yeah? It is on purpose. That's
the thing I think. When we boil it all down,
you know, we are very much under his eyes patriarchy,
it's misogyny, it is it is very dark if we
(25:59):
really sit with it. At the same time, though, at LOOM,
when we're still open in a brick and mortar and
they would teach them, I would teach our periods class.
One of the disclaimers I would always kick off with
was saying, look, if you feel shame or discomfort tonight
as I'm unpacking this information, that's okay, Like it's welcome.
(26:21):
It's okay for that emotion to be here because our
culture has been designed for you not to know this.
So just feel a sense of ease with the shame
because it's by design. And so when I hear you
talking about that, it's it's it's such a gentle reminder
for me because it was such a big part of
(26:43):
the education. Was really just like shame metabolization, you know,
like how do you just get more comfortable? Because if
you can get more comfortable with the shame, that you
can just be like, well, fuck it, I guess I
don't know any of this ship, So can I just
read a couple of books? Can you talk to me
about it? You know what I mean. It's made me
so empowered too to help other friends get pregnant. Like,
I've sat down and had so many coffees with women
(27:04):
who were like, I'm so sad. I don't know what's
going on. I don't know my body, I don't know
what's wrong. And I'm like, Okay, well, let's like really
talk about it. Have you really sat down and like
studied yourself? I mean when women are like I don't
really understand when I'm ovulating, Like I don't really know,
and I'm like, what the fuck this is crazy? Um?
(27:26):
You moonlight as a co host of a Goop podcast.
That's awesome. Yeah, it's super super fun, super fun. Who
has been your favorite chat so far? Like regarding reproductive health?
Oh yeah? Um. Lm or Cleghorn who wrote a book
called Unwell Women really really interesting. She's basically the UK.
(27:51):
She's a medical historian art historian too. But the book
is all about just medical myths and just kind of
a tyranny of misogyny and the jerpey and how it's
really created a lot of issues for women around healthcare.
For example, the fact that cardiac issues are the number
one killer of women. Most women don't really understand what
they need to be taking care of their cardiac health.
(28:14):
So things like that. But great book, not a happy topic,
but really interesting. Yes, but this is the information we need.
What is it called one more Time Unwell Women? Unwell Women?
Tell me? What are the other things in the works
for loom in. We've got the app, which is sounds insane. Yeah,
(28:36):
app is gonna be great, and um yeah, we're actually
going to be kicking back off our newsletter, so folks
should definitely like sign up for that. It's gonna be
really fun and juicy and filled with like all the
good sr H things, s R exception predict health and
um yeah there's other things, but sign up for the
newsletter day like keep posted and for the newsletter, we
(28:58):
could just go on the loom site and sign up correct, Yeah,
it'll it'll be right there. But also I will well,
I'll follow up and give you all the all the goods.
Like definitely we've like posting and sharing to all of
our listeners. This is this is needed needed. Do you
have a personal lifelong dream that you want to accomplish
(29:22):
within the sexual and reproductive health field? I think for me,
really my lifelong dream in terms of sexual with corrective
health is to really feel that I've made an impact
in how women and people talk about their bodies and
understand their bodies. And so I feel like I'm at
(29:42):
base camp right now of that dream in terms of,
you know, kind of building that out. And I think, honestly,
I'm excited to write more books. I've you know, I'm
kind of working on my second book right now, which
will be a big highlighted focus on sexually productive health
because my first book was only about pregnancy and postpartum
and what is the name of the book for all
(30:03):
of us listening. The first book is called Nurture, a
Modern Guide to Pregnancy, birth, and early motherhood and trusting
your body and trusting yourself. That is the bold title.
And I feel really grateful, not lucky, as my mom
would say. I'm grateful that, you know, I'm getting the
chance to uh really show up and and and have
(30:24):
these kinds of conversations. And you know, I've I've been
a little bit in the background over the past kind
of year and a half, really heads down doing all
the things that we needed to do to get LOOM
where it is right now. But I'm really excited to
step forward a little bit more and and we dialogueing
like this and just you know, creating the space especially
(30:45):
you know, for me as a black woman, is a
woman holding all these different experiences and wanting to be
able to speak to just sexually productive health from this
more marginalized perspective too, I think is so important. Erica,
this is amazing. I'm very blown away and I'm so
(31:05):
grateful you're here doing this because you're pushing the biggest
Boulder bill. She's out here. I mean, you were out there,
you are doing it. Bye, thank you guys so much
(31:27):
for listening to today's episode. I want to hear from you.
Let's chat questions, comments, concerns. Let me know you can
always find me at Katie's Crib at Shonda land dot com.
Katie's Crib is a production of Shonda land Audio in
partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Shanda
land Audio, visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts,
(31:49):
or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.
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